Del

[Clean39T]

Del

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[truth]

That was quick. How's your Torelli?

[Clean39T]

That was quick. How's your Torelli?

You must be new here... ha ha.

Torelli is arriving shortly.

This is an obligatory offer-up, but truth be told, I'd like to build it and have some fun with it on my way to trimming the garage a wee a bit in anticipation of what might be two new customs in 2021 from Mr. Kirk and Mr. Wages.

[lenny]

I thought it was a reference to this:

https://i.imgur.com/jTnbvgq.png

Nice bike. GLWS.

[bicycletricycle]

I thought it was a reference to this:

https://i.imgur.com/jTnbvgq.png

Nice bike. GLWS.

Tru pimpen

[Clean39T]

Tru pimpen

It's Shaq, not Pippen.

https://sites.psu.edu/mesrcl/files/2020/09/42a0e09fbb36961dcc503aa9c35922af.jpg

[Michael Maddox]

For what it's worth, I was racing for a Schwinn-sponsored team around this time, and we received Icy Hot embrocation/balm/whatever. So...on a cold morning in north Georgia, a teammate and I smeared this crap all over our legs and stomped around remarking just how GOOD we felt. We even forwent the standard panty-hose (easy to tear off) for the morning. Then, we rolled out....

I have NEVER been colder in my life. EVER. The cold worked INTO me. Everywhere I had touched, even after washing my hands, suddenly was icy fire...my nose, my eyelids, my lips. It was abject misery and I never really raced...just slogged through. I couldn't WAIT to find some way to get the hellish concoction off me. I NEVER touched embrocation again. Still don't.

I DO have a nice Schwinn Icy/Hot Jersey still, though.

[Clean39T]

For what it's worth, I was racing for a Schwinn-sponsored team around this time, and we received Icy Hot embrocation/balm/whatever. So...on a cold morning in north Georgia, a teammate and I smeared this crap all over our legs and stomped around remarking just how GOOD we felt. We even forwent the standard panty-hose (easy to tear off) for the morning. Then, we rolled out....

I have NEVER been colder in my life. EVER. The cold worked INTO me. Everywhere I had touched, even after washing my hands, suddenly was icy fire...my nose, my eyelids, my lips. It was abject misery and I never really raced...just slogged through. I couldn't WAIT to find some way to get the hellish concoction off me. I NEVER touched embrocation again. Still don't.

I DO have a nice Schwinn Icy/Hot Jersey still, though.

I can't imagine spreading IcyHot on my legs like that - yikes!

Need a frameset to go with that jersey? Could figure out some tradeage to keep your numbers steady.. though that doesn't really help me.

[Michael Maddox]

I can't imagine spreading IcyHot on my legs like that - yikes!

Need a frameset to go with that jersey? Could figure out some tradeage to keep your numbers steady.. though that doesn't really help me.

It's a beautiful bike! I owned one almost identical a few years ago. And the numbers totally work for me...but I have a Wheaties/Schwinn Paramount OS and an Anniversary Paramount...as well as quite a few others. I've got a broken hip and have been TRYING to get rid of some bikes, myself! :)

[Michael Maddox]

I can't imagine spreading IcyHot on my legs like that - yikes!

Need a frameset to go with that jersey? Could figure out some tradeage to keep your numbers steady.. though that doesn't really help me.
You aren't HELPING, Dan! :)

[Clean39T]

Up.

[lavi]

I dig the font.

Wondering how a frame like this would feel compared to a modern steel frame. Is the newer tubing "better"? Do current stuff give a more lively ride?

Assuming say a Kirk and this could be built with identical components, what might a discerning rider feel?

[Clean39T]

I dig the font.

Wondering how a frame like this would feel compared to a modern steel frame. Is the newer tubing "better"? Do current stuff give a more lively ride?

Assuming say a Kirk and this could be built with identical components, what might a discerning rider feel?

This one will "plane" more. For a 1986 frameset, it is quite high end and undoubtedly better constructed than the majority of what could be found out there in the production space from the Old World. It looks to have pretty classic stage-race geometry, so handling should be excellent and clearance is at least decent, as opposed to where crit frames went a few years later.

Dave did a nice comparison between an early Serotta Coors team bike and his latest Onesto JKS: http://kirkframeworks.com/2019/04/15/old-vs-new-serotta-vs-kirk-onesto/ . I imagine takeaways would be similar.

[Bici-Sonora]

I dig the font.

Wondering how a frame like this would feel compared to a modern steel frame. Is the newer tubing "better"? Do current stuff give a more lively ride?

Assuming say a Kirk and this could be built with identical components, what might a discerning rider feel?

I've ridden a lot of bikes from this era mid-1980s. Beyond geometry, I think the biggest differences in ride feel come down to standard vs. OS tubing. Dan's Kirk has big tubes: double oversize 34.9 DT and a 31.8 TT. To contrast, my 84 Fuso has at 28.6DT and a 25.4TT.

Those bigger diameter tubes give the Kirk a much stiffer feel out of the saddle climbing and sprinting--more like a modern bike made from other materials. On my Fuso, I can make the front derailleur rub when sprinting. The frame really moves around, but not in necessarily in a bad way. I like both bikes a lot, but the the ride characteristics are quite different.

I don't know for sure what the tubing diameters are on this Paramount, but sometime in the late eighties these went to OS tubesets (but still narrower diameter than the super OS on Dan's Kirk) and were typically made from SLX although I've seen them in 753 too.

Dave Kirk has a blog entry that is addresses this question: http://kirkframeworks.com/2019/04/15/old-vs-new-serotta-vs-kirk-onesto/

[Bici-Sonora]

This one will "plane" more. For a 1986 frameset, it is quite high end and undoubtedly better constructed than the majority of what could be found out there in the production space from the Old World. It looks to have pretty classic stage-race geometry, so handling should be excellent and clearance is at least decent, as opposed to where crit frames went a few years later.

Dave did a nice comparison between an early Serotta Coors team bike and his latest Onesto JKS: http://kirkframeworks.com/2019/04/15/old-vs-new-serotta-vs-kirk-onesto/ . I imagine takeaways would be similar.

You beat me to posting the Kirk comparison. haha.

[Clean39T]

I've ridden a lot of bikes from this era mid-1980s. Beyond geometry, I think the biggest differences in ride feel come down to standard vs. OS tubing. Dan's Kirk has big tubes: double oversize 34.9 DT and a 31.8 TT. To contrast, my 84 Fuso has at 28.6DT and a 25.4TT.

Those bigger diameter tubes give the Kirk a much stiffer feel out of the saddle climbing and sprinting--more like a modern bike made from other materials. On my Fuso, I can make the front derailleur rub when sprinting. The frame really moves around, but not in necessarily in a bad way. I like both bikes a lot, but the the ride characteristics are quite different.

I don't know for sure what the tubing diameters are on this Paramount, but sometime in the late eighties these went to OS tubesets (but still narrower diameter than the super OS on Dan's Kirk) and were typically made from SLX although I've seen them in 753 too.

Dave Kirk has a blog entry that is addresses this question: http://kirkframeworks.com/2019/04/15/old-vs-new-serotta-vs-kirk-onesto/

I believe this one is SLX, or potentially a combo of SLX and SPX. When JB did the repaint he used a generic Columbus sticker on it.. But it does look like standard TT and OS DT.

It's one-too-many projects for me right now but I'm still very curious how it'd ride and perform.

Also, if someone is interested, I could sell a pristine Chorus 10 group with it... but only with it, otherwise I'm holding onto it for some future project down the road.

[mhespenheide]

...sometime in the late eighties these went to OS tubesets...

I don't know about the Waterfords, but for the production models, "PDG", I think it was '92 or '93. I was a junior in college in '94 and grabbed one of those frames on closeout when Schwinn filed for Chapter. They're only "single oversized", not double. I've heard rumors that those were Tange Presitge, welded in the Panasonic factory, but I haven't heard it from a fully trusted source.

I will say that I helped facilitate a Paramount 50th anniversary frame and came away impressed by the craftsmanship. As Dan points out, it was better than most of the work coming out of Europe at the time.

[Clean39T]

...

[pcb]

I'm pretty sure '89 was the first year of OS Paramounts from Waterford. At one point I had two Paramount cousins from 1/89 production, one of the last std-tubed frames and one of the first OS frames.

Though I guess std-tube Paramount production could have continued for a season or two? I don't know if Schwinn offered both models side-by-side, or cut the std-tube spec and went all-in on the OS.

They both rode nice. The OS frame was a little taller, but did feel a bit stiffer and "more modern."

One of the beauties of a modern handbuilt steel frame is the ride tunability made possible by tubing choice. Old-school/"classic" tubing sizes are still available, as well as all manner of modern OS/profiled/channeled/chopped stuff. You can get your '70s-'80s whatever recreated, or take advantage of modern wundersteel.

I'll also respectfully remind folks that the weight difference between a typical high-end vintage frame/fork (6-6.5lbs or so) and a modern OS thinwall frame/fork (5-5.5lbs?) may be under 1.5lbs, which feels like a big difference when you heft the bare frames. But build them up, especially with similar lighter-weight components, and that weight difference goes further down in the mix. That's where tubing choice gets really interesting.

Here's an older DK post about tubing diameter choices for different riders and frame sizes:
http://kirkframeworks.com/2009/08/25/size-and-weight-appropriate/

And with apologies to Clean for this ad drift, though it does get him another bump, I saw DK's prize-winning frame at NAHBS in SLC and it is definitely to die for.

I've ridden a lot of bikes from this era mid-1980s. Beyond geometry, I think the biggest differences in ride feel come down to standard vs. OS tubing. Dan's Kirk has big tubes: double oversize 34.9 DT and a 31.8 TT. To contrast, my 84 Fuso has at 28.6DT and a 25.4TT.

Those bigger diameter tubes give the Kirk a much stiffer feel out of the saddle climbing and sprinting--more like a modern bike made from other materials. On my Fuso, I can make the front derailleur rub when sprinting. The frame really moves around, but not in necessarily in a bad way. I like both bikes a lot, but the the ride characteristics are quite different.

I don't know for sure what the tubing diameters are on this Paramount, but sometime in the late eighties these went to OS tubesets (but still narrower diameter than the super OS on Dan's Kirk) and were typically made from SLX although I've seen them in 753 too.

Dave Kirk has a blog entry that is addresses this question: http://kirkframeworks.com/2019/04/15/old-vs-new-serotta-vs-kirk-onesto/

[Jeff N.]

HT length? HT angle? ST angle?

[Clean39T]

HT length? HT angle? ST angle?

Your exact specs: 19.5 HT and 59.5 TT (approx). Angles I'm not certain of but they look normal to my eyes....would expect 72.5/73..

I now have an American Classic 27.4 post for it, and a Lite 209 if you need a new black one - both avail at cost.

[Clean39T]

Up with ye!

[Clean39T]

Another drop.

[Clean39T]

Back on Market w Price Drop.

[Clean39T]

UP. Trades welcome. Things like Campy stuff, wheels, what have you..

[Clean39T]

Del

[Clean39T]

Up


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[Clean39T]

Del