Update with my TT Rollers...

[terrytnt]

Well, it's been 2 months that I've been riding my new TT Rollers, have logged 400 miles and definitely feeling comfortable.

Up side, these rollers are quiet, extremely smooth and with the flywheel attached provide a realistic road feel. I have, however, noticed a few quarks that those of you in the know might help me with.

So you understand my configuration, I ride:

Ottrott ST
Campy Neutron Tubulars

Even with all the miles logged, it still can get squirrelly at times. My tires, both front and back, seem to oscillate quite a lot (especially the rear) within 4-6 inches. Now, my tubulars DO indeed have 2500K on them with a few slight dimples that I can feel while riding which might explain... because of the roller smoothness, the tendency of the wheels to move more than usual. I mentioned this to the folks at TT and they suggested moving the front roller 'up' one notch. Now the front axle is a good 2-3 cm 'behind' the center of the front wheel axle.

Both my son, who has clinchers and I can NOT take our hands off the bars without the front tire moving all over the place. Note, in a previous report I had tried Kreitlers and was EASILY able to take my hands off the bars.

So is this a function this particularl TT Roller, my worn tubulars or displacement of rollers and wheels, or something else?

[11.4]

I don't have this problem riding them, but I've seen it. First, the rear rollers are farther apart on the TruTrainers than on Kreitlers so your rear wheel "beds" in the rollers a bit differently. TruTrainer mounted the rear rollers higher to keep the bike level, although this wasn't really necessary, but the key fact is that the rear rollers are farther apart. Your bike simply steers a bit differently.

However, mostly it's due to how you are responding to the resistance on the TT's. On Kreitlers you aren't applying all that much power to the pedals so you aren't applying that much lateral (sideways) action either. With TT's (or any situation where you are pedaling against more resistance) your pedaling stroke needs to be very smooth or you are going to have an intermittent extra bit of pressure on the pedal that in part causes you to push the bike sideways, which causes the steering issue. The TT's are simply highlighting that your pedaling stroke isn't perfectly smooth. It doesn't have to be the mystical "constant power all around the stroke" that triathletes sometimes talk about (the Powercranks objective). Plenty of studies have shown that you take more power to generate that than you are saving, and your legs simply aren't designed to offer constant power like that throughout the stroke. But you do need to move into and out of your power phase in each stroke without an "instant on/instant off" transition and certainly without a bobble in your riding. And you do want that power phase to be relatively prolonged. Some riders only really pedal hard for 30 degrees or so of their pedal revolution. Again, such a short surge will push your bike sideways. Since on the Kreitlers you weren't applying a lot of power, you didn't see it. It's all indicative of how one's pedaling efficiency and style changes as soon as one applies more power to it -- and why ultra-low gear fixed gear spinning has a certain purpose but doesn't suffice in its own right. Fast cycling is about high cadence plus high power. Simultaneously. When you ride with both, you create a collection of new pedaling issues you need to train. You're just getting an indication of one of them.

[LegendRider]

Fast cycling is about high cadence plus high power. Simultaneously.

Quote of the day.

[terrytnt]

Wow... quite a comprehensive/ technical response, thanks 11.4!

YES, thought had occured that this is more related to my imperfect pedal stroke which is magnified on the TT rollers. Don't get me wrong, I've only slipped off once and occupy the center portion of the roller (with 3-6 inches) most of my riding time.

My routine is to ride an easy 15 minutes to warm-up, say 39/15 then move to my large chain ring and rotate between 52/19 & 52/16 for 5 minute interval at 90-100 cadence. After 3 to 4 intervals I cool down in my lower chain ring for 10+ minutes providing a good 1 hour workout.

To your point about my pedal stroke, I frequently notice that during my cool down, I'm far more squirrelly - clearly indicating a sloppy pedal stroke.

So what do you suggest I do to improve the smoothness of my pedal stroke, i.e., shorter periods on the rollers, with more focus on smooth pedalling, more one legged pedalling on my stationary trainer? (My fear is that after riding for many years these behavioral patterns are ingrained and not likely to change over night.)

And by the way, what would be the simptom of having the front roller too far forward? The TrueTrainer folks thought this was the main reason for the movement in my front tire (literally bouncing when I let go of the front handle bars) and suggested I move the roller up one notch... this didn't really make much of a difference.

Thanks again 11.4, your knowledge and insight is incredibly helpful!!!

[11.4]

[QUOTE=terrytntSo what do you suggest I do to improve the smoothness of my pedal stroke, i.e., shorter periods on the rollers, with more focus on smooth pedalling, more one legged pedalling on my stationary trainer? (My fear is that after riding for many years these behavioral patterns are ingrained and not likely to change over night.)

And by the way, what would be the simptom of having the front roller too far forward? The TrueTrainer folks thought this was the main reason for the movement in my front tire (literally bouncing when I let go of the front handle bars) and suggested I move the roller up one notch... this didn't really make much of a difference.[/QUOTE]

As for the front roller position, a bike is quite twitchy on rollers until the front roller is 2-3 centimeters in front of the front axle. It's perfectly rideable (and you don't go bouncing off the front or anything) but you have a harder time going hands-off. More than that distance, it really doesn't make much of a difference until you are 7-8 centimeters in front and your front wheel just wants to flip around and drop behind the roller. (I get on rollers at the track all the time that are set up for much bigger bikes than mine -- or for a Corima, which has the wheelbase of a tandem -- and ride without problems even if the front roller is well in front of the front wheel.) It can feel a bit sluggish and your resistance may go up slightly, but that's it.

As for pedaling training, there's stuff to recognize the problems and stuff to actually fix it. One-legged pedaling helps recognize the problem and trains your mind a bit to think about pedaling smoothly. Riding a fixie also helps (not in very low gear -- riding an 84 inch gear on a mild uphill will quickly show you where your pedal stroke slows). Rollers also help (as you've found out). But actually fixing the problem is mostly a matter of good balanced musculature and neuromuscular training. Most of us have miserable pathetic hamstrings compared to our quads, and most of us have extremely tight soleus and peroneus muscles (in the calf) -- all of this a result of how cycling builds leg musculature. Plus, it's amazing how weak our lower back and hip muscles can be. If these aren't strong and able to support your power output, your pedal stroke suffers. So it really helps to build more flexibility and also to build more strengths, especially in the lower back, hips, and hamstrings. This is where exercises with free weights really help. I'm not talking about huge squats, but rather exercises like a one-sided pull-up from a bent-over position with a dumbell. Most one-sided exercises really help (the Aussies pointed out that you are really engaging in one-sided exercises on the bike, at least as the muscles look at it). Core body work with an exercise ball is also helpful to a point, though I've found that there's a point where I simply need to create more eccentric loading with free weights to get continued improvement (but I'm also a sprinter and trying to exceed 1600 watts this year on a standing start). There's no coordination training that will help maintain smooth pedaling if you can't support your own power generation during the pedal stroke -- your body simply gives way, or the leg stops applying power during that part of the stroke.

[Peter P.]

Geez; I'm not sure I can offer much after 11.4's detailed reply-I appreciate his input greatly.

I purchased my TruTrainer just about the same time as you did (I was following and participating in the discussions). I too, noticed I can't ride no-handed. My memory is vague, but I think I was able to do this with my first pair of rollers some 25 years ago so I wondered why I can't do this now. I've just chalked it up to injuries I've accrued throughout the years which altered my pedal stroke, but 11.4's explanation of the TruTrainer's resistance affecting things makes sense. I suppose I could disconnect the flywheel and see what happens, but I think roller riding in general makes me smooth enough and I consider no-hands on the rollers to be more a trick than a skill, though I could see a transfer benefit on the road.

Certainly the more behind the roller your front axle is, the more difficult it will be to ride no-hands. The roller is like a lever arm exerting a lateral force on the wheel. The closer to zero offset you can get, the easier it should be to ride no-hands. In theory, it should be just as easy as doing so on the road, no? It should at least be easy to coast no-handed, no? I think that test would be a better indicator of optimum front wheel location.

As for the oscillation back and forth-certainly try some other tires/wheels or clinchers. 0.030" is the acceptable tolerance of tire roundness. While I don't expect you to go out and measure your tires, know that your tires on the road or rollers are more forgiving of defects than on a trainer where all your body weight is NOT on the tire, absorbing your tires' deformation.

The one problem I had with my TruTrainer was, I brought mine to a local shop to show them off. I grabbed a brand new Specialized road bike off the rack and demonstrated riding them, especially out of the saddle.

So I go home, and the next day use the TT's for a session. My tires are squealing like crazy! I have no idea what happened. I figure something was on the demo bike's tires that got on the rollers. Well, it didn't wear off after an hour session. It didn't wear off after ANOTHER hour session.

I cleaned the rollers with Simple Green. No change. I cleaned them with mineral spirits. No change. I was ready to take sandpaper to them, knowing it would ruin the anodizing. Then I got an idea- I tried a Scotch Brite pad. That worked. There must have been some factory spooge on the tires (usually so they release easily from the tire molds) that transferred to the rollers, though you couldn't see or feel it.

My only complaint about the TT's is I wish the rollers had a textured finish, more like 300-400 grit sandpaper, or like Krietler rollers, for some road-like grip. Smooth as glass doesn't make much sense to me as it could foster some slipping under certain circumstances, like out of the saddle riding. I also have to wheel my bike over to the exercise room when it's wet/rainy/snowy out so the tires get wet before I hop on the rollers. Things are a bit dicey until the tires dry out.

[11.4]

Sure you didn't contaminate your own tires? Even bringing in a bike with cold tires from the garage can cause squealing and when it happens it often continues for a good while -- there's not much to scrub it off the tires.

If you really got a lot of goop from some other tires on the rollers, it probably contaminated your tires, so you needed to clean your own tires as well or you still were dealing with mold release compound that was coming from your tires (after having been picked up indirectly from the tires on the Specialized).

Whatever, this does happen and I've never really figured it out. Sometimes it'll disappear right away; other times it'll last for a few days. Definitely annoying. It happens to me on trainers, on Kreitlers, and on TT's. I wouldn't necessarily ascribe it to the TT's per se.

[terrytnt]

I purchased my TruTrainer just about the same time as you did (I was following and participating in the discussions). I too, noticed I can't ride no-handed. My memory is vague, but I think I was able to do this with my first pair of rollers some 25 years ago so I wondered why I can't do this now. I've just chalked it up to injuries I've accrued throughout the years which altered my pedal stroke, but 11.4's explanation of the TruTrainer's resistance affecting things makes sense. I suppose I could disconnect the flywheel and see what happens, but I think roller riding in general makes me smooth enough and I consider no-hands on the rollers to be more a trick than a skill, though I could see a transfer benefit on the road.

Peter, don't think it's past injuries, but rather a function of TT. I say this because I demo'd at length Krietler (4") rollers several weeks before purchasing the TT just to ensure my ability to master this skill. It was a really cool cycling clinic in Richmond, VA with platforms BUILT around AND within the rollers (only the rollers were protruding). This was done to help train riders to use rollers. Anyway, within a few hours I was riding with no hands, standing, closing my eyes (with supervision) and practiced bumping while riding. This convinced me to move forward with the Roller purchase. I bought TT for all the reason discussed previously. I was surprised however by the sensitivity of the bike on the rollers. 11.4 has the best explanation for what's occuring.

I've moved the front roller FORWARD so that the center-line axle is 2-4 cm behind the roller... but I don't notice that much change. And it's not that I can't control.. but rather as I let up control of the bars the front wheel become a little squirrelly. No problem going from hoods, center bars and drops but I do have to move cautiously. Even though I've logged 400 miles on the TT, I have yet to stand for fear of losing control. I'll get the courage one of these days... probably when I son returns for spring break and I have a spot.

11.4 I think you're on target about what's going on with pedal stroke and it's definitely something I will continue concentrate more on. I think, however, my worn veloflex tubulars (2500K+) are definitely contributing. Just purchase a set of NEW Campy Euros tubulars that I'm mounting with Veloflex Carbons this weekend. I'm anxious to see if NEW tires, perfectly aligned/ circular will create a different result.

thanks again for your input guys...

[Too Tall]

Guys this is a very productive thread on the Tru Trainer rollers. Thanks. Terry can you post or PM info. on that clinic? That got my interest and esp. the platforms.

[terrytnt]

A few of you have asked about the cycling clinic I attended in Richmond, VA, in Fall 2006, to learn about rollers. My son who started-up a University Richmond Cycling Club has been working with Endorphin for quite some time. If you're in the area, I suggest you stop by.

Here's the info if anyone is interested:

Endorphin Fitness
8910 Patterson Ave
Richmond, VA
804.741.1599
http://www.endorphinfitness.com/home.htm

The Owner and Founder is Michael Harlow... a really great guy!!!