they neutralized the final circuits? huh?

[stevep]

i read that somehow it was decided to neutralize the final circuits in the tour of ca? rather than the final k as in every other major race.
this ( for some undetermined reason ) allowed leipheimer to hold the race lead despite crashing and losing some time.
someone has to have a race bible out there to see how the rules were written or was this some fool rule rewritten on the fly in favor of disco?
could the new sponsor be amgen?
just both curious and suspicious.
rules on the fly anyone?
watch for justification of this.
this is bs.

[Louis]

I agree - seems arbitrary and highly suspicious.

Doesn't every serious race have a published and known set of rules to follow?

[atmo]

this is bs.
i saw that too.
is this a race or is it a 7 day gallery lap atmo.

[stevep]

Doesn't every serious race have a published and known set of rules to follow?

absolutely. a race bible handed ouit before the race but the 1k to go is almost inviolate... i would need to see the bible written otherwise to buy this.

big time bs.

[atmo]

thry neutralized it after the crash according
to my sources. word is that half the field had
speed wobble trying to get around a 3 man
pile up atmo.

[Louis]

thry neutralized it after the crash according
to my sources. word is that half the field had
speed wobble trying to get around a 3 man
pile up atmo.

Actually, I heard it was shimmy, definitely not wobble.

And the other half of the field was on plane...

[ada@prorider.or]

home town levi
would you expect something else?!

[stevep]

thry neutralized it after the crash according
to my sources. word is that half the field had
speed wobble trying to get around a 3 man
pile up atmo.


w/ 9k to go?
still bs. they neutralized it and still had a sprint?
aaaarrhgghgh.
still bs.
nobody knows what theyre doing out there atmo.
report to follow.

[AgilisMerlin]

anybody know who the three riders were ?


amerlin

[Sandy]

OK. I admit it. I don't have a clue as to what you all are talking about. What does it mean to "neutralize the final circuits"?



Sandy

[Big Dan]

The check is in the mail............

:cool:

[Louis]

OK. I admit it. I don't have a clue as to what you all are talking about. What does it mean to "neutralize the final circuits"?

Today's stage of the ToC

[stevep]

OK. I admit it. I don't have a clue as to what you all are talking about. What does it mean to "neutralize the final circuits"?



Sandy


basicly it means that they end the race for gc at some point before the end.
they neutralize major races usually w/ 1 k to go so that if a gc leader gets crashed in the final sprint and therefore finishes some seconds down he is not penalized on gc. he gets the same overall time as long as he is in the front group when the crash occurs.
there is still a final sprint and a winner declared with the remaining riders. the unusual part of this is that the crash took place w/ 9k to go. never heard of it before.

[atmo]

OK. I admit it. I don't have a clue as to what you all are talking about. What does it mean to "neutralize the final circuits"?



Sandy
it means that the er severity of the crash caused the
mamby pamby promoters to think on their feet since
alotta favorites were victimized on the tarmac and
the race story line would be forever changed. in boxing
circles it's known as the fix being in atmo. lame.



ps what stevep wrote.
'never saw this ever ever happen.

[Elefantino]

I wonder if the ink was even dry on the race bible when they looked up the rules.

Embarrassing for my hometown, embarrassing for Leipheimer, embarrassing for the race, embarrassing for Amgen.

STILL...

It was rather groundbreakingly awesome to watch the stage live on Flash. Adobe got it right today. Other than a few server stalls, it was wonderful to minimize my browser window up in the corner of my computer and watch the events while I worked.

Even got my in-laws on the phone during the finale (they still live in Santa Rosa) and we all said "OH ****!" at the crash.

That went over well. I was in the middle of the newsroom at the time.

[Grant McLean]

excuse a poor soul for being out to lunch.
where are you guys watching the live feed?

g

[manet]

a 3 man
pile up atmo.

interesting, here we sit with no archibald.
oh where oh where could he be...

[Sandy]

basicly it means that they end the race for gc at some point before the end.
they neutralize major races usually w/ 1 k to go so that if a gc leader gets crashed in the final sprint and therefore finishes some seconds down he is not penalized on gc. he gets the same overall time as long as he is in the front group when the crash occurs.
there is still a final sprint and a winner declared with the remaining riders. the unusual part of this is that the crash took place w/ 9k to go. never heard of it before.

Thanks for the explanation. To somehow neutralize the race with approximately 9k to go seems to suggest remarkable favoritism, remarkable ineptness by race officials, a "new" rule for this particular race, or some combination of the aforementioned.

But then what do I know. I race US Army Abrams tanks on my bicycle.


Sandy

[Elefantino]

excuse a poor soul for being out to lunch.
where are you guys watching the live feed?

g

TOC Web site. (http://www.amgentourofcalifornia.com) Way cool. Sucked on the office PCs, but the Macs rocked.

[fstrthnu]

One way to take the credibility out of a race. It will be interesting to see what the final outcome is after the inevitable protests tonight by the DS's.

Justin

[Sandy]

One way to take the credibility out of a race. It will be interesting to see what the final outcome is after the inevitable protests tonight by the DS's.

Justin

You got that right about credibility.


Sandy

[labratmatt]

total bull****.

[fstrthnu]

"Ben rode in good position, and that kept him out of that crash," Olson said. "Now he's being penalized. I applaud Ben for riding with the best in the world, and it would have been a tremendous reward for us and our sponsors, but at the end of the day, it's a tough call. And I'm not the type that's going to go hammer on the commissaires. A lot of guys went down in that crash, and we could have just as easily been on the wrong side of that. As hard as it is to swallow, it's part of racing."

Take your skirt off imho.

Justin

[obtuse]

it's their race.

it's february.

it's filled with a bunch of pro-tour teams and riders.

it's sponsored by amgen.

what about the whole thing isn't a joke?

the "tour" of california. that's not even an english word. it was cute with "du pont" after it; its mad painful now and this stupid race has nothing to do with anything that matters in the world of professional cycling which in and of it self has nothing to do with anything that matters in the global scheme of things anyway. the frucking leader's jersey has red bloodcell cartoons on it for christ's sake.

i'm of a half a mind to move to japan and following the keirin circuit. it's cheap, it's clean, the bikes are prettier and i can smoke cigarettes and bet on it.


obtuse

ps as an aside; had this same thing happened to in the tour de france on the first real stage the commisaires would have done the same thing. remember that stage a few years ago when have the field finished way below the time cut? it's not stupid because its always stupid.

[fstrthnu]

it's their race.

it's february.

it's filled with a bunch of pro-tour teams and riders.

it's sponsored by amgen.

what about the whole thing isn't a joke?

the "tour" of california. that's not even an english word. it was cute with "du pont" after it; its mad painful now and this stupid race has nothing to do with anything that matters in the world of professional cycling which in and of it self has nothing to do with anything that matters in the global scheme of things anyway. the frucking leader's jersey has red bloodcell cartoons on it for christ's sake.

i'm of a half a mind to move to japan and following the keirin circuit. it's cheap, it's clean, the bikes are prettier and i can smoke cigarettes and bet on it.


obtuse

ps as an aside; had this same thing happened to in the tour de france on the first real stage the commisaires would have done the same thing. remember that stage a few years ago when have the field finished way below the time cut? it's not stupid because its always stupid.

Be that true as it may, it is still a shame that a rider from a smaller domestic team has literally had the jersey stolen from him by some mafia-clique. It like all the things I don't want to be true about cycle sport but are time and time again shoved in our faces.

Oh well. Doesn't change price of tea in China I know...

Justin

[obtuse]

Be that true as it may, it is still a shame that a rider from a smaller domestic team has literally had the jersey stolen from him by some mafia-clique. It like all the things I don't want to be true about cycle sport but are time and time again shoved in our faces.

Oh well. Doesn't change price of tea in China I know...

Justin

half the field crashed out of contention due to no fault of their own. the tour de france let riders stay in the race despite not finishing within the time cut a few years back....and the fact that they didn't make the time cut was entirely due to their own inability or lack of inclination to pedal a bicycle and chase down the break.

i am not excusing the commisars' decision. i think it is stupid...but this stuff is par for the course. remember beamon *****ing and moaning a couple of years back about how rules about pulling riders being at the discretion of the officials shouldn't apply to his team because it'd disrupt the race at beauce?

in the end its all up to the officials and they in general do the best they can for the money that allows the race to exist....that includes the teams and the sponsors.

beats a dude with a chalkboard i guess,

obtuse

[atmo]

bike racing should introduce sudden death atmo.

[obtuse]

bike racing should introduce sudden death atmo.

atmo should introduce obtuse to more sexy jewish comediennes....

obtuse

[fstrthnu]

half the field crashed out of contention due to no fault of their own. the tour de france let riders stay in the race despite not finishing within the time cut a few years back....and the fact that they didn't make the time cut was entirely due to their own inability or lack of inclination to pedal a bicycle and chase down the break.

i am not excusing the commisars' decision. i think it is stupid...but this stuff is par for the course. remember beamon *****ing and moaning a couple of years back about how rules about pulling riders being at the discretion of the officials shouldn't apply to his team because it'd disrupt the race at beauce?

in the end its all up to the officials and they in general do the best they can for the money that allows the race to exist....that includes the teams and the sponsors.

beats a dude with a chalkboard i guess,

obtuse

What I have a hard time accepting... and I hope I am wrong about this. Was the race neutralized becaue LL was involved and would have lost the jersey if the commisaires had followed the rules?

I bet BJM does not agree with the laisez faire attitude of his DS.

Justin

[atmo]

atmo should introduce obtuse to more sexy jewish comediennes....

obtuse
go mental (http://youtube.com/results?search_query=SARAH+SILVERMAN&search=Search) atmo.

[AgilisMerlin]

Phil's last comment on Versus regarding the nuetralization was "they shouldn't of done that', but..............................


Dave Z in hosp. because of concussion. Sucks


amerliN

[coylifut]

isn't this a uci commisaire decision, not a toc decision?

[jwprolo]

... And I'm not the type that's going to go hammer on the commissaires.

Well... I would. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=317362&postcount=9)

Seriously. Blaming it on not knowing how to turn and ride on botts dots? Maybe part of the training plan should have been the mentored early bird crits here in fremont. Sucks.

[pdxmech13]

rubbins raciin and those boys should get the times they got.
it sucks to loose time and stuff but thats just the way it goes
woulda been cool to see a guy not on a big squad have an attempt for overall.

I give this race just a little credit but it sure is lacking any credibility in the world of bike racing. Ruta is were the real boys are playing.

[classic1]

They did a similar thing in the Tour DuPont or De Trump or whatever one year, to the benefit of Lemond and Rominger.

Maybe it was down to confusion over what 1km to go is, you 'mericans not using the metric system and all :p

[Simon Q]

Lowers the cred of the event for sure. One thing letting riders finish who miss the cut becuase of a crash but we are only talking about a GC issue here, not excluding riders from the race. ST with 9K to go...joke.

[Elefantino]

Be that true as it may, it is still a shame that a rider from a smaller domestic team has literally had the jersey stolen from him by some mafia-clique. It like all the things I don't want to be true about cycle sport but are time and time again shoved in our faces.

I am, by nature, a conspiracy theorist. And I wonder: What would it mean to Pro Tour teams deciding to return, sponsorship money and the like if someone from a smaller team ... say, Priority Health ... were to win the whole thing? Did the kommisars say, "Sh*t! We can't have this happen!" (think SFGP) and scramble to "right" things when they had a chance?

Isn't the whole deal about playing it out on the road? Should they postpone the race for a few days because Z has a concussion?

During the prologue, everyone was jazzed (except Phil who, as a fellow conspiracy theorist, wondered if the timekeeper had forgotten to hit the "go" button) because a nobody former truck driver from a small team (although, admittedly, with a way cool argyle kit) was tweaking the big boys. "What a great story! Woohoo!"

I guess that feeling died on a street in Santa Rosa.

PS: Aliens shot JFK, we're holding their spaceship at Area 51, we never went to the moon (we used all that technology to make crop circles instead), Al Pacino had Pope John Paul I killed, Elvis works in a convenience story in Amarillo ... and I am the father of Anna Nicole's baby.

[ada@prorider.or]

What I have a hard time accepting... and I hope I am wrong about this. Was the race neutralized becaue LL was involved and would have lost the jersey if the commisaires had followed the rules?


well you should know how it works justin

those rule´s never change,there is huge money involved
:no: :no:

[GoJavs]

Honestly, I stayed up watching the race last night and I turned off the TV before it ended. It had this 'exhibition' feel to it. Amazing that the crash happened with 9 k to go and that was it for the GC. Silly...silly... :rolleyes:

[atmo]

from cyclingnews.com:
UCI guidelines have a three-kilometre rule permitting neutralization of results to equal the race winner, intended specifically for accidents like Monday's in stage 1. In Monday's case, a crashed caused by road botts dots on the finishing straight happened with ten-kilometres to go.<cut>

so, a course obstacle was to blame. heck. the 'cross worlds shoulda'
been neutralized after wellens tanked after he and njis were taken
out of their lead after hitting a course obstacle atmo. yes, i am serious.
why this in cali, but not in all other races?

the toc is an exhibition race now.

[sspielman]

Some might say that the whole race was neutralized when they decided that they might actually test for EPO this year....

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . (My GAWD! Is that POSSIBLE! :eek: ) . . .

<<in the end its all up to the officials and they in general do the best they can for the money that allows the race to exist....that includes the teams and the sponsors.>>

It's the second year of this race, it has one major sponsor who has just been ticked with an embarrassing drug test faux pas involving one of its own products, and if they let the delay from the crash stand, then half the field is eliminated from contention on only the second stage. Not good for the excitement of the race or, again, the audience draw for the sponsors.

The $$$ rule, but not that different from Europe, as several others have pointed out. How many Tour stages have we seen over there where the rider finishing or passing through his hometown is allowed by the peloton to either jump out front for a few klicks of even win the stage?

It sucks for the credibility of the race to real cycling fans, but they are trying to draw a new mass audience, not a small minority of cycling fans who will watch no matter what. The only real difference from Europe is that over there I'd bet money they would have pried every fruckin' one o' those Botts Dots OFF the road BEFORE the race, sanded the glue off the pavement, then glued them back down after it's all over.

And a ten kilometer finishing straight?!?! What's up with THAT?!? :confused:

BBD

[stevep]

gross misjudgement by the commissars imo.
would have been great for jaques maines to wear the jersey for a day or 3.
make the pro team goobers take it away on the bike...not the clipboard.

"hey levi, stay closer to the front..fewer crashes up there"
your friend stevep

fill in different name and use this advice for anyone in any race.
$.25 per use. pay in advance.
atmo owes me $1,200 for repeatedly using this advice for 25 years.

[stevep]

finishing straight[/I]?!?! What's up with THAT?!? :confused:

BBD


over there they will often as mentioned allow a guy to go forward to stop and say hi to the relatives. the agreement is that there is no foolishness. they wont give up a stage win and this would never happen near a stage finish. woe forever to any guy who attempted to benefit from this gift.
over there they dont do anything special to the roads in preparation for the tour. watch the freakin roundabouts with road barriers, small curbs that you cant even see on tv that the boys have to jump. no special preparations made. they assume that the boys can ride a bike and figure it out... and if they crash its unfortunate but part of the game.

[labratmatt]

What I have a hard time accepting... and I hope I am wrong about this. Was the race neutralized becaue LL was involved and would have lost the jersey if the commisaires had followed the rules?

I bet BJM does not agree with the laisez faire attitude of his DS.

Justin


I'm confused. I read that Disco helped get Levi back on the group. Is that not the case? Were they still OTB when Graeme Brown and co. were sprinting for the line?

[atmo]

and if they crash its unfortunate but part of the game.
and if they crash its unfortunate but part of the game.
and if they crash its unfortunate but part of the game.
and if they crash its unfortunate but part of the game.
and if they crash its unfortunate but part of the game.


stevep gets it atmo.

[Grant McLean]

When are they going to repave that Paris-Roubaix course, it's a hazard!
Maybe they should just skip the cobbles, and do 10 laps of the velodrome,
neutralized times of course :rolleyes:

g

[labratmatt]

Does look like it was a mess: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQBeNXKoshk

[manet]

1) he's so damn small it's hard to tell if he actually on his bike or not.
2) and when he is, it always looks like he's trying to catch-up.

[atmo]

1) he's so damn small it's hard to tell if he actually on his bike or not.
2) and when he is, it always looks like he's trying to catch-up.
he's shrunk-to-fit atmo.

[stevep]

i wanna hear the cockpit tapes of the commissars meeting.
the truth is out there
but we'll never hear it

[AgilisMerlin]

where'd that big bag of money go................... :banana:




amerliN

[weisan]

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races07/toc07/toca07st01-crash450.jpg

[J.Greene]

I'm confused. I read that Disco helped get Levi back on the group. Is that not the case? Were they still OTB when Graeme Brown and co. were sprinting for the line?


Levi was in a group about 1 kin back

JG

[J.Greene]

I keep coming back to the 99 tour and the Pasage du gois. Armstrong won the 99 tour with the time he got that day. Postal drove the peloton iirc after Zuelle got caught behind a 120 rider wobble. That's racing atmo, but I guess in california they can make the rules again and again.

JG

[atmo]

I keep coming back to the 99 tour and the Pasage du gois. Armstrong won the 99 tour with the time he got that day. Postal drove the peloton iirc after Zuelle got caught behind a 120 rider wobble. That's racing atmo, but I guess in california they can make the rules again and again.

JG
that is nuts atmo.

[coylifut]

gee guys, talking about throwing out the baby with the bath water. from the time when the gun goes off to the posting of the official results, it's the UCI's race.

the toc has the potential to be a great event. beautiful realestate, participation from top teams, the current world champion, nicely placed on the schedule. did the UCI COMMASAIRES screw the pooch on this one. You bet they did, but we've all seen similar situations like when the lead car led the break off the course at the tour of Belgium a couple of years ago.

the race is young, give em a little room.

[David Kirk]

My enthusiasm for pro racing has taken another hit.

Dave

[atmo]

My enthusiasm for pro racing has taken another hit.

Dave
sarah silverman is the new pro racing.
hit that atmo.

[Grant McLean]

Do I get the same time as Levi?
Sure, I missed the start, but you know,
I finished just 156 km behind....


g

[gt6267a]

I am with coylifut and maybe obtuse if I can see around the corner of what he is saying. It's not like rules have never been broken or changed or munged in Europe. Do we as Americanos call it cute when they ignore the time cut and allow the Peloton to keep racing in France but call it blasphemy when they do something stateside? I don’t remember people joking that they are still in the TdF. At least be equal opportunity haters.

In my mind, this is not even nearly as offensive as awarding time bonuses. I mean, this is a sport where the total reported time of racing can be less than the actual time spent racing. Hello? To those of you who are so upset about this, do you find that reasonable?

[Grant McLean]

I am with coylifut and maybe obtuse if I can see around the corner of what he is saying. It's not like rules have never been broken or changed or munged in Europe. Do we as Americanos call it cute when they ignore the time cut and allow the Peloton to keep racing in France but call it blasphemy when they do something stateside? I don’t remember people joking that they are still in the TdF. At least be equal opportunity haters.

In my mind, this is not even nearly as offensive as awarding time bonuses. I mean, this is a sport where the total reported time of racing can be less than the actual time spent racing. Hello? To those of you who are so upset about this, do you find that reasonable?

I don't see how the time cut in the TDF can have equal weight with this
situation. If Lance lost 1:40 to Ullrich because he got stuck behind a crash
and they neutralized, people would 'get' that something was going on.

Actually, I recall a similar outrage with the TDF when they started monkeying around
with the TTT times a couple of years ago. Boonen at the train tracks in
Paris Roubaix? People don't like this messin' around.

g

[rdparadise]

SteveP--Levi was at the front left of the field and somehow without a turn in site, someone touched wheels (side by side) and beldlum occured causing numerous cyclist including LL to crash.

I don't like what the officials did either but I do agree with an earlier post that 1/2 the field would have been out of GC contention so that went with the neutralization.

Hey, on another note, are these bike races run by Lance's sports promotion company and isn't Discovery owned partially by Lance? Any connection here or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Bob

[dauwhe]

In my mind, this is not even nearly as offensive as awarding time bonuses. I mean, this is a sport where the total reported time of racing can be less than the actual time spent racing. Hello? To those of you who are so upset about this, do you find that reasonable?

I'm not sure I understand. Time bonuses make sense to me... in a stage race environment, it seems reasonable that someone who wins a stage should get some sort of benefit in the overall scheme of things, even if the whole pack comes in at the same time. And it's not like it's a large amount of time, just enough to keep things interesting, and improve the racing (Vino winning in Paris a few years ago)...

Dave

[fstrthnu]

I am with coylifut and maybe obtuse if I can see around the corner of what he is saying. It's not like rules have never been broken or changed or munged in Europe. Do we as Americanos call it cute when they ignore the time cut and allow the Peloton to keep racing in France but call it blasphemy when they do something stateside? I don’t remember people joking that they are still in the TdF. At least be equal opportunity haters.

In my mind, this is not even nearly as offensive as awarding time bonuses. I mean, this is a sport where the total reported time of racing can be less than the actual time spent racing. Hello? To those of you who are so upset about this, do you find that reasonable?

This incident effected the 1st place GC... this is not about the guy who finished 114th.

Justin

[Brendan Quirk]

Gotta admit that my favorite part was when Roll did the puff-piece post-race interview and LL stated how proud he was to "defend" his jersey in the stage. He used the word "defend" -- I swear!

[chrisroph]

Now bike racing is just like nascar (except for the money). Did anybody catch the end of the Daytona 500?

[Grant McLean]

Gotta admit that my favorite part was when Roll did the puff-piece post-race interview and LL stated how proud he was to "defend" his jersey in the stage. He used the word "defend" -- I swear!

well, he did have to get up and chase.
Cold comfort for some, but i'm sure LL had quite the "oh shiit" moment.

g

[J.Greene]

I
In my mind, this is not even nearly as offensive as awarding time bonuses. I mean, this is a sport where the total reported time of racing can be less than the actual time spent racing. Hello? To those of you who are so upset about this, do you find that reasonable?

I don't find a time bonus offensive. As long as everyone is subject to the same rules consistently it works for me.

My view is that the rules were adjusted after the race, and that's almost always the wrong way to do things.

JG

[BarryG]

Gotta admit that my favorite part was when Roll did the puff-piece post-race interview and LL stated how proud he was to "defend" his jerseyYeah, I was struck by the reality is stranger than fiction, totally out of context, aspect of that quick interview as well. But I'd give credit either to VS/OLN for really crappy editing or Bob Roll for bozo interviewing for not setting the context with at least one question about the crash before LL's "defense of the jersey" sound bite.

[cadence90]

I don't find a time bonus offensive. As long as everyone is subject to the same rules consistently it works for me.

My view is that the rules were adjusted after the race, and that's almost always the wrong way to do things.

JG
Aren't time bonuses a bit of a relic, though, in the age of chips and transponders?

I mean, if those timing devices are so effective, why award the additional and imho archaic 20/12/8 second bonuses...just make the results actual time, as in all other timed races.

I agree that revising yesterday's neutral zone to 9K out was/is bogus.

[sspielman]

My enthusiasm for pro racing has taken another hit.

Dave
I am glad that I am not alone. The whole professional side of the sport is on a suicide mission...from multiple angles....

[Jason E]

Aren't time bonuses a bit of a relic, though, in the age of chips and transponders?

I mean, if those timing devices are so effective, why award the additional and imho archaic 20/12/8 second bonuses...just make the results actual time, as in all other timed races.

I agree that revising yesterday's neutral zone to 9K out was/is bogus.


It lends itself to strategery*.

People can go for intermediate sprints, go for a bonus and make the peleton, or the key rival's team, chase so it is more exciting and they do not mosey along at 18 until the last hour or when cameras are on them.

It is to increase the entertainment. Make your popcorn taste better, etc...








*thanks W

[cadence90]

It lends itself to strategery*.

People can go for intermediate sprints, go for a bonus and make the peleton, or the key rival's team, chase so it is more exciting and they do not mosey along at 18 until the last hour or when cameras are on them.

It is to increase the entertainment. Make your popcorn taste better, etc...








*thanks W
My point is that with the transponders all those strategies would still be in play, except that the times would be actual and the margins would reflect reality (to the 1/1000th of a second if need be). I do not understand the application of bonuses in this day and age.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/22/TheoBosWorldRec.jpg/800px-TheoBosWorldRec.jpg

[dauwhe]

Using actual (transponder) times would be problematic in flat stages... it seems there are already enough crashes as everyone wants to be at the front of the pack. What if GC seconds (or fractions) were always at stake? I fear a demolition derby would ensue.

Also, because of the nature of drafting, it seems odd that the actual winner of a sprint would only gain a hundredth of a second over the 2nd-place finisher. It makes sense that the winner would get a meaningful time reward...

Dave

[J.Greene]

Aren't time bonuses a bit of a relic, though, in the age of chips and transponders?

I mean, if those timing devices are so effective, why award the additional and imho archaic 20/12/8 second bonuses...just make the results actual time, as in all other timed races.

I agree that revising yesterday's neutral zone to 9K out was/is bogus.

I never have thought about it being a relic. To me, it's part of the race, and everyone is eligible to sprint for them.

The bottom line for me is that the race should be decided and won on the road, not in a tent after everyone has crossed the line. Time bonuses don't change my view of sportsmanship.

JG

[cadence90]

I never have thought about it being a relic. To me, it's part of the race, and everyone is eligible to sprint for them.

The bottom line for me is that the race should be decided and won on the road, not in a tent after everyone has crossed the line. Time bonuses don't change my view of sportsmanship.

JG
I agree completely re: the race being won on the road; therefore, at the risk of sounding redundant I still wonder what is the point of time bonuses in this era of accurate timing devices, that's all.

I would rather have a rider up by a real 16.173 or or 10.720 or 3.145 seconds, earned by sprinting at the same intermediates and finishes, than be given an abstract bonus of 20, 12 or 8 seconds, I guess.

[cadence90]

[snip]
Also, because of the nature of drafting, it seems odd that the actual winner of a sprint would only gain a hundredth of a second over the 2nd-place finisher. It makes sense that the winner would get a meaningful time reward...

Dave
So, should a pipper get 20 seconds (and so 8 seconds over 2nd-place), for having drafted for perhaps all but the last second of a sprint?

[Grant McLean]

My point is that with the transponders all those strategies would still be in play, except that the times would be actual and the margins would reflect reality (to the 1/1000th of a second if need be). I do not understand the application of bonuses in this day and age.


Hi Cadence,

It's really two different things. The fact that all riders get the same time if
the group finishes together is a seperate thing from the time bonus.

As was mentioned, safety is the reason given for the same time rule, but it's
really just a self-regulating rule. If you're not contesting the sprint finish,
it benefits everyone to have the rest of the field just roll in behind the first
group of finishers. Having 200 riders charge the line would be a mess. In a
stage race, the GC favorites don't want to get mixed up in the stage finishes
when everyone is coming to the line together anyway. The top GC riders only
care about their relative position to the other favorites, so the 'same time'
finishing rule just reinforces what's already a reality on the road.

The sprint bonus and stage win bonus is entirely different. Created to make
more of a "race within a race". Those with no hope of overall GC wins get
a chance to have their team possibly get their sprinter into the leaders jersey
early in the race by leaping up the GC with the time bonus. That's why some
sprinters in the Tour try hard in the prologue, to keep their GC place close
enough that an early stage win bonus might get them the leader's jersey.

g

[J.Greene]

I agree completely re: the race being won on the road; therefore, at the risk of sounding redundant I still wonder what is the point of time bonuses in this era of accurate timing devices, that's all.


In my opinion...it's for entertainment. It may level the playing field some too. You have an intersting question, and I see the merit. Either way, bonus seconds or no, the whole field knows what the rules are and can plan strategy from that.

JG

[gt6267a]

I respect the idea that a stage winner should get something for his win. Don’t they get money and respect and marketability? If the time they get is irrelevant to the race, why bother? If it is relevant to the race, what a shame.

For example, I don’t know if this has happened or not, someone will know, let’s say after the prologue rider A has a one second lead on rider B. On the first stage, these two riders run off in a breakaway and don’t get caught. They finish side by side but rider B wins the stage by .002 seconds. In real time rider A rode his bike for less total time but because of the time bonuses rider B will be in the leaders jersey.

Should it not be rider B gets the attention and respect of winning a stage and rider A gets the attention and respect of being the leader of the race? Now, what if the winner of the race were decided by such sillyness?

[cadence90]

In my opinion...it's for entertainment. It may level the playing field some too. You have an intersting question, and I see the merit. Either way, bonus seconds or no, the whole field knows what the rules are and can plan strategy from that.

JG
Yes, I can see that, and I agree. And I know, as Grant said, that the sprint and stage win bonuses are two different things. I also understand the safety issues; on the other hand it seems that most GC contenders are usually above the bonus margins anyway, and therefore seldom charging the line in a bunch sprint. The GC contenders would not be penalized in either case (i.e the same time rule could still apply after the sprint, no, as it does now?).

Perhaps it is not possible to accurately time every rider in a stage race, but it seems it would have been cool to see Lemond beat Fignon (or not) by the actual time the two were separated by over 21 days, if possible. Or, I'm just bored today, and am dragging this out for far too many split-seconds.... ;)

[J.Greene]

If rider A was protecting his lead his team should have never let rider B get away since he was obviously a better sprinter.

JG



I respect the idea that a stage winner should get something for his win. Don’t they get money and respect and marketability? If the time they get is irrelevant to the race, why bother? If it is relevant to the race, what a shame.

For example, I don’t know if this has happened or not, someone will know, let’s say after the prologue rider A has a one second lead on rider B. On the first stage, these two riders run off in a breakaway and don’t get caught. They finish side by side but rider B wins the stage by .002 seconds. In real time rider A rode his bike for less total time but because of the time bonuses rider B will be in the leaders jersey.

Should it not be rider B gets the attention and respect of winning a stage and rider A gets the attention and respect of being the leader of the race? Now, what if the winner of the race were decided by such sillyness?

[Grant McLean]

Yes, I can see that, and I agree. And I know, as Grant said, that the sprint and stage win bonuses are two different things. I also understand the safety issues; on the other hand it seems that most GC contenders are usually above the bonus margins anyway, and therefore seldom charging the line in a bunch sprint. The GC contenders would not be penalized in either case (i.e the same time rule could still apply after the sprint, no, as it does now?).

Perhaps it is not possible to accurately time every rider in a stage race, but it seems it would have been cool to see Lemond beat Fignon (or not) by the actual time the two were separated by over 21 days, if possible. Or, I'm just bored today, and am dragging this out for far too many split-seconds.... ;)

Sure, but like having only 3 downs in Canadian football, what you suggest would
fundamentally change the sport. It is the way it is for good reason.

g

[cadence90]

Sure, but like having only 3 downs in Canadian football, what you suggest would
fundamentally change the sport. It is the way it is for good reason.

g
I am Italian.
The words "Canadian football", "American football", "Ozzie rules football" do not not make any sense to me. ;)

http://inter-milan-news.newslib.com/img/logo/3363.jpg
:beer:

[gt6267a]

If rider A was protecting his lead his team should have never let rider B get away since he was obviously a better sprinter.

JG

i don't see how tactics plays a role.

so, you are saying that you don't have a problem that a rider with more riding time is able to lead or win an event where the winner is determined by time? that is the center of my dislike of time bonueses. give them money or points or something, but not time.

[J.Greene]

i don't see how tactics plays a role.

so, you are saying that you don't have a problem that a rider with more riding time is able to lead or win an event where the winner is determined by time? that is the center of my dislike of time bonueses. give them money or points or something, but not time.

I don't argue your point about what's fair. But the fact is that everyone knows before the stage what will happen wrt time bonuses. Tactics are part and parcel to bike racing. Not only have races been lost, but jersey's have been won because a team leader decided not to protect the lead and time bonus allowed it to slip away. How many time has it been said the strongest doesn't win a bike race, it's the smartest. It's all tactics atmo. And the second thing...the rules are the same for everyone, so I don't have a problem.

JG

[Grant McLean]

I am Italian.
The words "Canadian football", "American football", "Ozzie rules football" do not not make any sense to me. ;)


sorry, you get a red card for not understanding the sport.

g

[stevep]

time bonuses make it interesting.
everyone gets a shot at it.
can give a guy or 2 a chance to lay it all down for a chance at the jersey..like the kid who finished 2nd in the prologue... quite possible for him to get a bonus and wear the jersey for a day or 2.
would make the kids career and make the race much more interesting.
also its written in the rules and everyone knows it going in.
as for the time being exact or the use of transponders. actual time does not matter really.
in basketball the question is how much you won by. actual points scored means nada. go for the bonus.

i thk the overall would not have been affected anyway.
if the mighty disco team could not make up 30 seconds on jacques mains they should all turn in their jerseys cause they suuck. ( no slam on jacques mains there... hes had a great race so far and he deserved the jersey for awhile )

[manet]

.

[BBB]

sorry, you get a red card for not understanding the sport.

g

It's Australian Rules.

As for that round ball stuff, don't the Italians mistake a ball sport for diving?

The red card is justified.

[A.L.Breguet]

All this time bonus, transponder, TTT stuff is beside the point.
Yesterday, the POSTED rules were changed. Period.
Crashing is part of this sport we are trying to love. You know, "The thrill of victory, and the agony of defeat."
The 1k rule made sense, now that it's 3k, it makes less sense. However, as others have stated, it avoids insanity at the end of stages. Let the sprinters duke it out, and let the GC riders relax a bit.

[cadence90]

It's Australian Rules.

As for that round ball stuff, don't the Italians mistake a ball sport for diving?

The red card is justified.
Ah, si, mi dispiace molto, mate. ;)

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7829/2881212830031606211pjczps9.jpg

[pdxmech13]

You guys think your all so smart and what not with these ideas and conspiracy theories. As if Amgen is gonna sponser disco's. Its gonna
go straight with just EPO and HGH in black and white front to back.