MeiVici Frame Weight

[LONE RIDER]

While I'm not a weight weenie, having a 18.5 lb '99 custom Legend Ti and loving every mile of it, I would like to know the weight of a MeiVici frame, say 54cm with a traditional top tube for a 170lb rider. I'm interested in what components I would need to come up with a sub-15 lb bike. After all, if I'm going to pull the trigger I might as well make sure its loaded (does that analolgy make sense?) Anyway, if anyone has weighed their frame I would appreciate knowing what it is.

[1centaur]

Weight questions are often hard to get answers to on this forum. Based on early comments when the frame was introduced (with a sloping frame that saved weight) and the size of the lugs, and depending on what flavor of tube stiffness you specify, I would start the over-under line at 1150 grams and be pretty surprised if it was more than 100 grams either side of that.

If that's your starting point, sub 15 pounds will be an expensive target to hit, with the most obvious choices being tubular wheels, Zero Gravity brakes, a Zipp or Schmolke bar, lack of paint and a light saddle (high-end gruppo taken for granted). Note well that not everybody out there in weight weenie land has an accurate scale and not everybody weighs with pedals and/or cages and/or computers.

There are a lot of lighter frames than the Meivici out there, getting up to a pound lighter, that would make sub-15 an easier goal at lower dollars. I would view the Meivici as a light frame that you buy for its ride and construction quality rather than its weight. I also think that you can get a Meivici in the mid 15s without too much of a struggle and the difference from 18.5 will be very enjoyable, while the difference from 15.5 to 14.9 would not be worth any trade-off in ride sensation.

[Serotta PETE]

SPOKES is around 16 and he does not have the Tubulars or Zero gravity - so in the 15 is definitely possible. (14 range will be difficult)

Ben and the gang do not go for the lightest as the highest priority and thus I do not ever recall any of the frames ever winning a weight contest for light.

There are lighter frames but you will need to ask yourself what you want out of the bike in terms of fit/purpose/life span and then go from there.

Let us know what you finally select.

PETE

[Climb01742]

paging mr brunk!

[jbrainin]

My LBS never did weigh my (54 cm) Mei Vici frame before building the bike, so I've no idea what it weighs. The built bike weighs 14.4 lbs. It is equipped as follows:

Campy Record 10 speed Compact Drivetrain (cranks, derailleurs, ergopower levers)
F3 6.5 fork
Chris King headset
Speedplay Zero Ti pedals
Zero G Ti brakes
Zipp stem and handlebars
Easton EC90 zero setback seatpost
Specialized Toupe saddle
Lightweight Ventoux wheels
Salsa Ti skewers

With Reynolds mid-v Cirro clinchers, the bike weighs 15.2 lbs (IIRC)

[Jack Brunk]

My frame weighed 1130 grams. Not bad considering it's painted. Total bike weighs 14.5 lbs and I could make it lighter if i put my Lightweight Ventoux's on it instead if the standards.

[DarrenCT]

My LBS never did weigh my (54 cm) Mei Vici frame before building the bike, so I've no idea what it weighs. The built bike weighs 14.4 lbs. It is equipped as follows:

Campy Record 10 speed Compact Drivetrain (cranks, derailleurs, ergopower levers)
F3 6.5 fork
Chris King headset
Speedplay Zero Ti pedals
Zero G Ti brakes
Zipp stem and handlebars
Easton EC90 zero setback seatpost
Specialized Toupe saddle
Lightweight Ventoux wheels
Salsa Ti skewers

With Reynolds mid-v Cirro clinchers, the bike weighs 15.2 lbs (IIRC)


picture?

possible?

-d

[Climb01742]

but does it earn/justify the price tag? does it really out-perform rigs costing half or at least thousands less?

[dave thompson]

but does it earn/justify the price tag? does it really out-perform rigs costing half or at least thousands less?
Have to take polite umbrage with this, along with the 'old fat guys who ride expensive rigs' statements often found.

ATMO & IMHO, toys like ours don't have to be justified on a cost basis. They are what they are and they are what we (I) want. I can go just as fast on a $5,000 bike as I can a $2000; so what? If you were to do a price/performance analysis, I would suspect that logically we would ride bikes that cost no more than $1500.

<rant off>

[Climb01742]

dave, to clarify: every rider has every right to own/ride any bike at all. i applaud any purchase that makes someone happy. i'm not questioning someone wanting or buying a meivici. what i'm questioning is the price being charged. from day 1 that has been the big stumbling block for me. so if i may split a hair: more power to anyone who buys a meivici. but i wonder if they are getting their money's worth vs what other high end frames could offer them. and to address the old fat guy point: i'm old and slow and don't "merit" the bikes i own, so i sure ain't throwing stones from that angle. :p

i simply have a hard time rationalizing that a meivici is $3k better than a time, 'nago, parlee, crumpton, calfee. i totally get why someone wants one. hell, i want one. but i can't get over the price. NOT that someone would pay it but that serotta would, with a straight face, charge it.

[coylifut]

of course it's worth it. the first 2000 is for the frame, the next 5000 is for that little something else. you know that thing that guys in your business sell.

dave, to clarify: every rider has every right to own/ride any bike at all. i applaud any purchase that makes someone happy. i'm not questioning someone wanting or buying a meivici. what i'm questioning is the price being charged. from day 1 that has been the big stumbling block for me. so if i may split a hair: more power to anyone who buys a meivici. but i wonder if they are getting their money's worth vs what other high end frames could offer them. and to address the old fat guy point: i'm old and slow and don't "merit" the bikes i own, so i sure ain't throwing stones from that angle. :p

i simply have a hard time rationalizing that a meivici is $3k better than a time, 'nago, parlee, crumpton, calfee. i totally get why someone wants one. hell, i want one. but i can't get over the price. NOT that someone would pay it but that serotta would, with a straight face, charge it.

[Climb01742]

yo, jack brunk, you've probably put more miles on high end carbons and meivicis. i've only ridden a pre-production meivici. does it beat your other top bikes? by a little, by a lot? and for you, does it merit its price tag? i don't mean to put you on the spot but you can speak from wide experience.

[Jack Brunk]

Climb,

Yes
A little in some ways and alot in other ways.
Yes it is worth the price. Customization comes at a price.

[Serotta PETE]

Climb, I agree with you that it is A LOT of money BUT is it enjoyable??? Forget about justifying it- -

The two folks that I know who have them (SPOKES) and another fellow around this area love them.. I have seen them on no other bike in their "portfolio :D " since they got them a few months ago. The bikes were designed for the type ride they wanted (YES by MIKE at CYCLESPORT :D :D ) and the fit is right on.

As to are they worth it??? Lots of things out there are not worth it to many (or most) folks (whether cars, trips, watches, etcc....) Examples -

- a quartz watch (cheap one at that) keeps time as good- if not better than an expensive mechanical watch.
- What makes a Lexus or Acura so much more than a Honda or Toyota
- PORSCHE for what reason around NYC
- Those "Backroad" or "Trek" beautiful vacations for 7 days that cost you
7K per couple without airfare (for only a week :confused: ).

THe way I look at it is "If it does not take food off the table, put you in "deep" debt, or miss a mortgage payment...DO IT because YOU want the experience. Others (non riders) would argue that CALFEE, PARLEE, SPECIALIZED etc make one crazy for spending that much...

Whenever someone asks me what my bike costs, I say about $1500. if they have to ask, they would never understand the emotion that went into buying and riding it, If I told them what it really cost, even a high end SPECIALIZED, they would say I am ready for the "funny farm" and offer to drive me there.

If it does not make sense to you, that is great, just think of the money you save. Beauty and value/worth have to be in the eye of the beholder.

Ride what you like, that is all that counts.........

Come to OPEN HOUSE and rides SPOKES Mevici.......

[LONE RIDER]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I now have some information I did not have. To address some of the points made I'd like to say the frame weight will not be the litmus test of my purchase decision - when comtemplating a new bike the initial excitment is over the purchase decisions like frame, wheels, components and the ever daunting paint scheme. Thus I was checking on the frame weight. But going further, I am in a comfortable income bracket but I don't ever see myself purchasing a Ford GT 500, Ferrari Modena 360 or a Bently Flying Spur, all considered top of the line automobiles. I can, though, see myself purchasing a top of the line bicycle like a MeiVici. Riding is my passion regardless of my abilities. It gets me out and excercising my heart. I do take pause when I think of pulling up to the group ride with an expensive bike. Even though I am not the type to pass judgement there are those who do and sadly any negative comments that may get back to me would lessen the excitement of owning the bike. That's my problem to work out. Thanks again for the comments, they are much appreciated.

[jbrainin]

picture?

possible?

-d

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=17853

These pictures are of the original build with 2006 Record compact cranks (now on my Concours) and Reynolds Cirro Mid-V clinchers. I've not had an opportunity to take any shots of the current build yet. Maybe this week…

[SPOKE]

my MeiVici weighs 15.91lbs ready to ride. built up with the following:

8.5 carbon tubes in the main triangle
10.5 carbon chain stays
6.5 carbon F3 fork
fully painted
06' campy record
Ti/steel cassette, 12 x 23
SLR saddle
Ritchey Carbon Streem Bar, 42cm
Ritchey WCS 4-Axis stem, 120mm, custom painted to match the frame
SpeedPlay X1 pedals, Ti spindles
Campy Hyperon Ultra Clinchers
Salsa ultra lite tubes
Vittoria CX clinchers
Deda bar tape
Nokon cable housing
2 Winwood carbon bottle cages w/ stainless bolts
no computer

i could probably get the weight down below 15lbs by using an all Ti or a Tiso alloy cassette. a lighter seatpost or just cut off about 2.5" of the campy record post. yea, a ligher set of wheels too but i just don't feel like dealing with tubluars.

[Climb01742]

someday i want to own a 911 turbo. 99.9% of people would say no car is worth just north of $100k. guess that's my answer to whether a meivici, or anything, is worth its price. :beer:

[flydhest]

dave, to clarify: every rider has every right to own/ride any bike at all. i applaud any purchase that makes someone happy. i'm not questioning someone wanting or buying a meivici. what i'm questioning is the price being charged. from day 1 that has been the big stumbling block for me. so if i may split a hair: more power to anyone who buys a meivici. but i wonder if they are getting their money's worth vs what other high end frames could offer them. and to address the old fat guy point: i'm old and slow and don't "merit" the bikes i own, so i sure ain't throwing stones from that angle. :p

i simply have a hard time rationalizing that a meivici is $3k better than a time, 'nago, parlee, crumpton, calfee. i totally get why someone wants one. hell, i want one. but i can't get over the price. NOT that someone would pay it but that serotta would, with a straight face, charge it.


How do you measure $3000 worth of bike? What makes a bike better than another? Because it transmits the power to the rear wheel more directly? I mean, how often do you hear people say things like "every bit of the energy I put into the pedals is transmitted to the road." When you can measure that and any other aspect of a bike that the buyer may value, then we can answer your question.

To answer your question, you need to be able to answer the question, "what ought to be valued in a bicycle?" If you can answer that, you're on the way.

[dbrk]

If you want one and can afford it, sure thing.

It would never have occurred to me to ask what the frame weighs. Would that make me a "better" cyclist? I have no idea.

I have the Serottas I want---unless there is a secret plan to make lugged steel bikes--- and, honestly (and interestingly), Meivici poses no temptation to me. I confess I'm with Climb on this, to wit, some part of my Meivici disinterest comes from the price. I could sell bikes and I could finnagle the money but I guess I'm just fryin' other fish. Of course, what do I know? I'd rather have an old 2CV than a 911 (unless it is a '72). Lust what you love and love what you lust!

dbrk

[Climb01742]

How do you measure $3000 worth of bike? What makes a bike better than another? Because it transmits the power to the rear wheel more directly? I mean, how often do you hear people say things like "every bit of the energy I put into the pedals is transmitted to the road." When you can measure that and any other aspect of a bike that the buyer may value, then we can answer your question.

To answer your question, you need to be able to answer the question, "what ought to be valued in a bicycle?" If you can answer that, you're on the way.

perhaps another way to look at this is: what can serotta do with a meivici that parlee or crumpton can't do? perhaps it's impossible to answer this question on a purely engineering basis because "value" and "worth" are subjective, human calculations. if we could take value/worth out of the equation and ask: what about the materials and how they are brought together is different in a meivici from other fully customizeable frames?
in some ways, serotta is the new kid on the carbon block, and arguably, a parlee or crumpton or calfee is the product of more experience, more know how. but this is truly an intellectual exercise. we want what we want, and with bikes, that is exactly how it should be. part of me wants a meivici because it holds out the promise of something extraordinary. but part of me keeps bumping up against the price. i can't quite explain why it bugs me but it does. i think it's because i can't, on a rational engineering basis, figure out what is different about a meivici. but hey, maybe that's the wrong basis to view a bike from.

[DarrenCT]

perhaps another way to look at this is: what can serotta do with a meivici that parlee or crumpton can't do? perhaps it's impossible to answer this question on a purely engineering basis because "value" and "worth" are subjective, human calculations. if we could take value/worth out of the equation and ask: what about the materials and how they are brought together is different in a meivici from other fully customizeable frames?
in some ways, serotta is the new kid on the carbon block, and arguably, a parlee or crumpton or calfee is the product of more experience, more know how. but this is truly an intellectual exercise. we want what we want, and with bikes, that is exactly how it should be. part of me wants a meivici because it holds out the promise of something extraordinary. but part of me keeps bumping up against the price. i can't quite explain why it bugs me but it does. i think it's because i can't, on a rational engineering basis, figure out what is different about a meivici. but hey, maybe that's the wrong basis to view a bike from.

that is why serotta sets the price so high. some people just want the 'most expensive'. i live in greenwich connecticut. its probably the top 3/4/5 richest places in america(world?). btw, im definitely not 'loaded'. ferreri's, Lamborghini's are a dime a dozen. a porsche is basically like a ford. the most popular car is a range rover. its just sick... there are more and more extremely rich people. not just a few million, hundreds of millions. some of these people are cyclists :)

[catulle]

I think I've told this story here before. Anyway, maybe not, so here it goes. Many years ago I worked in the field of advertising. One of the owners of the agency was a real jerk. While I was there we got the BMW and Mitsubushi accounts. So he ordered a full-equipped 6 Series two-door BMW with every single extra available. For seats he ordered leather Recaro sports seats which were the most expensive option. This guy was short and fat so when he went to pick up his car his fat butt didn't fit in the Recaro seat. Thus, he had to drive the car with one very maximus gluteus maximus lifted on the side of the seat. He didn't mind. He had the most expensive seats available for that most expensive car.

When he ordered his most expensive full-equipped Mitsubishi Montero, I heard him tell the dealer over the phone: The best stereo equipment? No, I want the most expensive.

I'd guess that for a merchant it'd be foolish to avoid catering to that market segment. Specially now days when that segment has become so hefty. Old Freud had it very clear after all, neurosis advances civilization. Hey, different strokes for different folks. Just saying...

[merckx]

That story is precious.

[flydhest]

perhaps another way to look at this is: what can serotta do with a meivici that parlee or crumpton can't do? perhaps it's impossible to answer this question on a purely engineering basis because "value" and "worth" are subjective, human calculations. if we could take value/worth out of the equation and ask: what about the materials and how they are brought together is different in a meivici from other fully customizeable frames?
in some ways, serotta is the new kid on the carbon block, and arguably, a parlee or crumpton or calfee is the product of more experience, more know how. but this is truly an intellectual exercise. we want what we want, and with bikes, that is exactly how it should be. part of me wants a meivici because it holds out the promise of something extraordinary. but part of me keeps bumping up against the price. i can't quite explain why it bugs me but it does. i think it's because i can't, on a rational engineering basis, figure out what is different about a meivici. but hey, maybe that's the wrong basis to view a bike from.

I'm not even sure I know how you could answer it on a "purely engineering basis." The processes are not identical, so how would you price the differences, however minor in your assessment? It had been the case that Serotta would rebadge Ouzo Pros after doing quality control. On a "purely engineering basis" the two forks are the same, except the quality control (let's take for the sake of argument that it exists). How do you price that difference? Is the way you price it the answer?

Define "rational." The way your using it seems to be valorizing it. Moreover, you seem to be implying that there is irrationality on the part of either Serotta or puchasers.

Finally, how can you take out the concepts of value and worth when what bugs you is the price? Suppose one could demonstrate for you that the frames you mention are equivalent (which they clearly aren't since Parlees are different from Calfees, for example). Now suppose that Serotta charged $.50 more for their frames. Would it still bug you?

[atmo]

read it and weep (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/18/fashion/18bottle.html?_r=1&ref=fashion&oref=slogin) atmo...

[rdparadise]

Well, I can here where climb is coming from.

On a similar note, a water bar recently opened in Philadelphia at the Water Works, behind the art museum. I couldn't believe it either until I read about it in the Inquirer.

Anyway, they have something like 18 different brands of water. The cheapest is $3 and the most expensive is around $50. From what I understand the most popular waters are the $3, which is considered the "house" water and the $51 dollar bottle. Now climb, if you think about this for a minute it doesn't make sense and is truly not explainable. Almost like paying $8k for a Meivici! :crap:

Bob

[RPS]

Placing a value on exclusivity, which in itself is irrational? Isn’t exclusivity also a big part of what drives the race for lower weight? Most people really know the limits on performance, but want to be the lowest at any cost. Ultimately it is whatever we can afford that makes us happy.I do take pause when I think of pulling up to the group ride with an expensive bike. Even though I am not the type to pass judgement there are those who do and sadly any negative comments that may get back to me would lessen the excitement of owning the bike. That's my problem to work out.Sadly, I know quite a few people who take pleasure in dropping riders who come out with new toys. It’s like their way of saying “in your face” if you think that new $5,000 bike will help you beat me on my $600 used Cannondale.

[Climb01742]

I'm not even sure I know how you could answer it on a "purely engineering basis." The processes are not identical, so how would you price the differences, however minor in your assessment? It had been the case that Serotta would rebadge Ouzo Pros after doing quality control. On a "purely engineering basis" the two forks are the same, except the quality control (let's take for the sake of argument that it exists). How do you price that difference? Is the way you price it the answer?

Define "rational." The way your using it seems to be valorizing it. Moreover, you seem to be implying that there is irrationality on the part of either Serotta or puchasers.

Finally, how can you take out the concepts of value and worth when what bugs you is the price? Suppose one could demonstrate for you that the frames you mention are equivalent (which they clearly aren't since Parlees are different from Calfees, for example). Now suppose that Serotta charged $.50 more for their frames. Would it still bug you?

fly,
bike purchases -- perhaps all purchases -- embody a duality: rational and emotional reasons. i am trying to separate the two. who can honestly question an individual's emotional reasons for wanting something? my desire for a porsche is long, complicated and personal. same with why i want the bikes i want. going down that road is ultimately a rhetorical deadend.
but i believe the rational side of the question is fair game for debate. and i have never heard a single plausible rational explanation for what a meivici offers that other, fully custom carbon frames don't.

[FlaRider]

perhaps another way to look at this is: what can serotta do with a meivici that parlee or crumpton can't do?


Climb,

I am in the process of ordering a Meivici and, in the months preceding my decision to take the plunge, I thought long and hard about the questions you pose, which I think are _necessary_ questions prior to spending upward of $8K on a bike frame. For me, the answer to your question is: "experience designing bikes that handle wonderfully."

I have owned a Parlee but never a Crumpton, so I cannot comment on the bikes that Nick fabricates, which appear to be wonderful based on the accounts I have read. While I have extreme respect for the wonderful people at Parlee, they simply could not translate my specific requests into a frame that rode the way I wanted. I sold the Parlee within a month of acquiring it. I have owned four Serottas, not including the Meivici. Every single one has met or exceeded my expectations. Based on this history, I have no reason to believe that the Meivici will not be a winner.

[1centaur]

Climb:

Serotta sees this thread (and others like it) and chooses not to answer your legitimate question. There could be many reasons for that, but here are a few:

1) To truly give you the right analytical base for price comparison with other premium carbon bikes, Serotta should work back from MSRP to its profit line and compare that with Parlee or Crumpton, which they cannot do without knowing Parlee or Crumpton's data. Further, even Serotta's profit line would be clouded by cost absorption issues that might be debated by accountants. If you were an LBO firm looking to buy Serotta you would need to know these answers, but as a bike buyer you don't.

2) Serotta could choose to give us great detail on how it specifies the tubes, the layup process, the gluing methods, the hand finishing, the custom lug angles, and so on. You, I and others might or might not be impressed by our assessment of what all that means, but unless we heard the same from Bob and Nick and Craig we would not have a great basis for comparison. If for the sake of argument the Serotta sounded 10% better than the others, would it be worth 40% more at retail? To some it would. If it sounded about the same in all salient details as the competition, would that fact be pounded into the ground and detract from sales? Absolutely. Why play that game when Serotta has a perfect reputation for quality?

3) If Serotta admitted that it priced the Meivici for the "buy the most expensive" crowd at the expense of the multi-bike gourmand crowd (you and me), would some here think worse of the company (and wonder if the same thinking applied to other models)? Yes we would. A lot of this forum's content on Serotta is based on the feeling that Serottas are better and thus deserve their price point. Serotta gains nothing in this fan base or in general by saying they use price as a marketing tool.

On a related note, I doubt you or I or Jack Brunk could convince a skeptical crowd why a given bike is objectively better than another at the high end. Why do I prefer my Crumptons to my Parlee? I have noted the joint transitions (looks) and mellower ride quality and head-to-head comparo that uncovered that stiffness does not equal speed (to which the crowd says., "duh!"). But I can't define a legitimate superiority to the Crumpton that cannot be argued. I just accept and enjoy my decision.

In the end, the Meivici will get lumped into that high end crowd and the only definite superiority it will claim is on price. There are now enough of them out there that if ride quality was on a different planet, we'd know. Instead, we hear that the owners like the frame very much. That's true of the other high end CFs as well. If you rode 5 Meivicis made for your specs but with varying tubesets back to back with Crumpton and Parlee and Calfee, I bet you'd have a tough time ranking them with confidence. That, in the end, may be all YOU need to know. Go with your gut on this one - buying a Meivici won't answer your question.

[Tom]

Way back in the dawn of time I got into an argument on this forum with somebody that stated the Serotta was engaging in price fixing beacuse they wouldn't negotiate and dictated to their dealers what to charge for a Legend (or an Ottrott, I can't remember). It was a Saturday, I was working and I was in a bad mood.

Anyway, one of the cornerstones of my argument was that for goods such as these, really expensive toys, you throw the worth of the physical instrument out the window because it all becomes emotional and irrational. I forget what the theory of sales or economics I was loosely basing my ideas on. Do't ask me for facts or research or anything really grounded in reality, OK?

It's like this: you go to the department store and buy a shirt. The price they charged for that shirt when it first went on the rack was $50. It sat there a while, they discounted it a few times and you spent $15. You say "Hey! I got something worth $50 for $15!"

No you didn't. You got $15 worth of shirt. That's what you paid.

Same deal with the bike. It's worth what people will pay for it.

AFAIK, it's worth what other people will pay for it.

[catulle]

1) I've read here that a carbon frame has a significant larger margin than say, a titanium frame.

2) If you own all or part of the tube manufacturing facility, your margin is even larger.

3) I learned at business school that you don't set prices on the basis of cost, but on demand.

4) An expensive bicycle frame for a non-pro is never a rational decision.

5) Price is one of the Ps of the marketing mix.

6) Thankfully, I don't have to buy what I don't want to buy. And I don't.

[flydhest]

climb,
I still don't understand. Honestly. I'm sure it sounds flip, but I need a definition of rational. In economics--a field many refer to as the study of rational agents--there is nothing irrational going on even if one takes your speculation as given that the bikes are the same.

What sort of differences do you imagine make the price differences valid? For each one, I could easily point out a flaw in the logic. 1centaur's attempt to agree with you illustrates this perfectly, in my view.

Do you find something irrational in the price differentials for Serotta Fiertes or Colorado III relative to other TIG welded steel bikes? Why don't they cost the same? One could point to differences in tubing selection or customization. How does one establish that the price differential is valid.

There was a discussion about a presumed Pegoretti knock-off. Suppose the bike had been built identically to the Peg. Would you imagine that a price differential between a true Pegoretti and the knockoff is warranted? How do you determine the price differential that is valid? $500 is ok, but $5000 is not? How would one make such choices of dollar values rational?

[atmo]

How would one make such choices of dollar values rational?
how? if you have a lotta dollars and they
mean less to you than they would to me,
you have your answer atmo.

[1centaur]

I'm not sure I would characterize my last as an "attempt to agree with" climb. He asked a question, rather than made a statement, and while I share the question in an analytical sense there is no solid conclusion, implied or otherwise, on which we can yet (or probably ever) agree with great comfort.

There are elements of price differentials that most of us would agree make sense. Hand building vs. Asian factory production; buying stock tubesets vs. specifying limited runs; spending a lot of time on finishing rather than doing a "good enough" job; aerospace grade CF vs. run of the mill types; retail distribution vs. Net direct; lots of OEM R&D to amotize vs. building what others have figured out, etc. Climb is asking for rationality in these terms, and that makes sense. My point is that at the upper levels of CF the easy differentiators are off the table - you get a lot of care, focus, custom spec, hand finishing, and R&D from all the top companies - which moves the debate somewhere more nebulous.

To divert the thread slightly, one of the great things (for consumers) about the Internet is that it reduces the number of uncertainties about differences between items that allows for pricing differentials to be sustained. A lot of brand building is about such uncertainties. 15 years ago it would have been easy to build Colnagos in Asia and have nobody (few people) the wiser. Today, consumers know that stuff much more easily and prices adjust. One of the key elements of brand building is NOT telling people everything they want to know. The element of mystery allows the imagination to adjust up from reality.

[Climb01742]

climb,
I still don't understand. Honestly. I'm sure it sounds flip, but I need a definition of rational. In economics--a field many refer to as the study of rational agents--there is nothing irrational going on even if one takes your speculation as given that the bikes are the same.

What sort of differences do you imagine make the price differences valid? For each one, I could easily point out a flaw in the logic. 1centaur's attempt to agree with you illustrates this perfectly, in my view.

Do you find something irrational in the price differentials for Serotta Fiertes or Colorado III relative to other TIG welded steel bikes? Why don't they cost the same? One could point to differences in tubing selection or customization. How does one establish that the price differential is valid.

There was a discussion about a presumed Pegoretti knock-off. Suppose the bike had been built identically to the Peg. Would you imagine that a price differential between a true Pegoretti and the knockoff is warranted? How do you determine the price differential that is valid? $500 is ok, but $5000 is not? How would one make such choices of dollar values rational?

fly, you're too intelligent to not get the point here. or perhaps you've practiced the dismal science a bit too much lately. i can't state my basic question any more simply than "what does a meivici offer that other full custom frames from folks like parlee and crumpton don't?" i've stipulated that "value" is subjective and personal, and in that sense beyond debate or unfruitful to debate. but i do posit that there should be tangible design or engineering or material differences that set frames apart. being custom doesn't set a meivici apart. flarider's "design rapport" is a valid distinction for him, based, as it is, on parlee not living up to his criterion. i would guess that jack brunk might feel the same, that he and serotta have established a design rapport that benefits jack. i would call that a tangible diference for those two riders.

[flydhest]

Lots of people like the Serotta brand and its history. I find the fact that atmo is willing to pay the price to get a Nagasawa as evidence that Nagasawa means something to him. His muse, I believe he said. He stated at the time he does not plan to build it up.

What does a Serotta offer that any other brand doesn't? The absolute minimum is that it is a Serotta. How does one price what that is "worth"? I could think of other things that a Serotta is, but given that one has at least one characteristic that needs to be priced to answer your question, I don't need to. Now, you can argue that it is irrational to pay extra for a name brand. Nevertheless, my question before, about there being a $.50 differential comes to mind. Is $.50 too large a differential? How do you decide where rational is?

It's not whether or not I get the point here, it's whether or not there is a point to be made. Price differentials exist. What does it mean for the differential to be valid or rational? How does one make a coherent argument that $.50 is rational but that another number isn't?

[OldDog]

It's about the ride, dagnabbit! Not the ride of the bike, but the act of getting out and cruising and grinning ear to ear and taking in the world and riding with yer friends and eating pizza afterwards and drinking beer and waiving at old folks on their porches as you ride by still grinning like an idiot and BS'ing with the boys at your shop and blowing out centuries every weekend come summer and doing Sunday breakfest rides....

[Len J]

Isn't marketing, at it's heart.......

giving consumers a rational argument to make an emotional decision?


You have bought probably 10 bikes that you rode lightly and then sold, but paid (what many would consider) a "premium" price to buy. Why is that price OK and the meivici price not? (BTW, I think this is the point Fly is getting at).

I could have written the exact same post you did here about your purchase of your Ottrott (or your custom Peg, or your Time, or your Parlee). I think the discontinuity in your question and your implied argument is that you are really saying (by your actions) that some premium is OK but (for you) a larger premium is not........welcome to capitalism. I don't get why this bothers you so much (As this is the second or third time you have brought it up).

Look, I think that, if you are like me, many of my purchases don't make rational sense........You drive an Audi.....why is the premium you paid over some other car "worth it"? I guarantee that many of your answers would be rationalizations or more likely, things that are emotionally pleasing to you that become "valuable" justifications. (Believe me, I'm looking in the mirror at this).

I have personally made a value judgement that the Meivici premium is not worth it for me.........but that doesn't in any way cast a judgement on others choices...........I wouldn't buy a 911 but I have bought a Boxster S........I didn't think the premium for the 911 was worth it, but thought the Boxster S was.......there are many people that look at the S and ask "How can you pay that much for a car? I think it's the same thing you are asking.

Len

[Serotta PETE]

Climb, why not get the PARLEE or Crumptom, then take the "not spent" dollars to the OPEN HOUSE and buy us wine..... ;)

I could not convince anyone that a SERTTOA is worth 30%+ more than another frame based on tubing, etc. And this is even in light of the fact that I am VERY BIASED to Serotta. The name of SEROTTA, the research, engineering, and the finished product are what I am buying (not the tubes)

All I can say is that a Serotta puts a smile on my face, just as a good bottle of red does. ;) As long as I am financially able to buy both new SEROTTAs and RED wine I will. The only quantification I have is "THAT I WANT IT and enjoy it">>>>I think that is what it really comes down to.

As 1 centauer says, I am probably one of those folks that would be just as fast and agile or a PARLEE or a CRUMPTON but that is not want I want.
(so I do not buy them).

We could be having the same discussion about PORSCHE vs another BRAND and why the 30%+ delta in cost...BUT it really does not matter because in the end that is what you want. (and believe me I like PORSCHE, as SPOKES will tell you).

Come on down and ride SPOKES Meivici and I have plenty of wine for us afterwards.

PETE

[flydhest]

Len, you got part of it, but economists are like ogres . . . I mean onions.

Again, you use the word rational. What does that mean to you all? To me--an all economists who learned their trade well--it means making decsions that--given your preferences--make you as well off as possible given your constraints. The next discussion, then, becomes how preferences are formed and then, what the constraints are.

[Serotta PETE]

Len, you got part of it, but economists are like ogres . . . I mean onions.

Again, you use the word rational. What does that mean to you all? To me--an all economists who learned their trade well--it means making decsions that--given your preferences--make you as well off as possible given your constraints. The next discussion, then, becomes how preferences are formed and then, what the constraints are.

I am on my way up with the red..........and the S2000 for the Dr... Lucy can fit in the back and we will have a good time....Linda will also come because she has a preference for your fine cooking. I only have a great preference for your fine wine and great friendship........ :beer:

Tell Sandy I have a bagel from bailey - just a few teeth marks - BUT I got a good buy on it.. :D

CABIN FEVER IS GETTING TO US>>>>>It is to be 60 down here tomorrow...Come one come all!!!!

PETE

[Len J]

Len, you got part of it, but economists are like ogres . . . I mean onions.

Again, you use the word rational. What does that mean to you all? To me--an all economists who learned their trade well--it means making decsions that--given your preferences--make you as well off as possible given your constraints. The next discussion, then, becomes how preferences are formed and then, what the constraints are.

too loosly. One persons rationality is anothers irrationality (Just ask my ex wife!). Thanks for the correction.

Len

[atmo]

too loosly. One persons rationality is anothers irrationality (Just ask my ex wife!). Thanks for the correction.

Len
one man's ceiling is another man's flaw atmo...

ceiling - wife
flaw - ex wife

[Len J]

one man's ceiling is another man's flaw atmo...

ceiling - wife
flaw - ex wife

I needed that! LOL

Ex-wife - the gift that keeps on taking.

Len

[jeffg]

the "market" observes on the basis of price, not any notion of use value.

What makes a Meivici worth more is determined by the observations of market participants and whether people buy it.

Try figuring out the derivatives market or monetary policy after Bretton-Woods (Ahneida Ride). It is rational, but decoupled from the value spheres you are invoking here.

As to the question as to whether to buy a Meivici:

Is a Parlee worth $5400 now when it was worth $2700 in late 2003?
Is an IF Lightweight worth $750 or so more than a CdA?
Is a Pegoretti worth over 2x what an Orbea AL frame costs?


To me, my Hampsten/Parlee works for me because Steve H. worked out the geo. Having Parlee do the design would not have been worth it to me. I didn't trust Parlee to design a stage race bike and I sure as hell know better than to try to design one myself. My Legend is worth it since Kelly B. designed it and I love riding it more than a bike I have ever owned.

So, if I were to buy a custom CF frame now, I would strongly consider a Meivici since Serotta gets it IMO and I could buy crash protection. A Parlee is already very expensive in my view (over $2000 more than a Crumpton), so why not go all out?

But don't listen to me. A cf frame is not worth it to me at present. I love my Hampsten (going to ride it today), but if it bit the dust I would not replace it with a Z1, but with an AL Hampsten/Co-motion or the Steve/Dario project if that ever comes to pass. I could have a custom Peg, CdA, etc. decked out with Record for the price of the frame or f/f of the Parlee.

Rational? Not really, so it really is my 2 cents worth ...

[cadence90]

It's neither about 'rationality' nor about the presumed quality of the bike, imho. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_paintings)

[vaxn8r]

You want what you want. At this stage of the game there is no "better". ATMO.

[soulspinner]

You want what you want. At this stage of the game there is no "better". ATMO.


+1

[zap]

To me--an all economists who learned their trade well--it means making decsions that--given your preferences--make you as well off as possible given your constraints.

Boy, this opens up another can of worms.

Anyhow, a Meivici with 56 c-c st with 58 level tt with the stiffest tubes known to Serotta will weigh how much?

[cpg]

I'm going to guess. 2.1#. What are we betting?

Curt

[obtuse]

Boy, this opens up another can of worms.

Anyhow, a Meivici with 56 c-c st with 58 level tt with the stiffest tubes known to Serotta will weigh how much?


it would weigh enough and probably fit me too.

obtuse

[Climb01742]

ex-wives. now there's a subject. :crap:

it's winter. no one is riding as much as they wish. threads like this live in winter and die in summer. let me bow out of this rhetorical brew-haha :beer: with a sincere wish:

that everyone finds a ride that puts a huge silly grin on their puss, a bike that brings you nothing but joy.

ps: len, a boxster s is enough car for anyone (in many ways more balanced than a 911). a 911 turbo is pure unadulterated irrationality, when too much is never enough.

pss: the first glass at open house is on me.

psss: fly, we each enjoy debating...on our own terms. we frame arguments the way we like. a way to pass a cold winter day when i was too big a wimp to freeze outside again.

[Len J]

ex-wives. now there's a subject. :crap:

it's winter. no one is riding as much as they wish. threads like this live in winter and die in summer. let me bow out of this rhetorical brew-haha :beer: with a sincere wish:

that everyone finds a ride that puts a huge silly grin on their puss, a bike that brings you nothing but joy.

ps: len, a boxster s is enough car for anyone (in many ways more balanced than a 911). a 911 turbo is pure unadulterated irrationality, when too much is never enough.

pss: the first glass at open house is on me.

psss: fly, we each enjoy debating...on our own terms. we frame arguments the way we like. a way to pass a cold winter day when i was too big a wimp to freeze outside again.

the Porsche analogy is good.........we all have our own idea of what will satisfy us.........and no 2 of us are the same.......

Len

[davids]

And Climb, before I even comment, you know I love you...

But this question, coming from you, strikes me as absurd. I am familiar enough with your bicycle buying habits to know that rationality, objectivity, and price sensitivity are not the driving forces behind your purchases.

You don't get the Meivici's price. OK. But you get the price of a Time VXRS, a full-carbon frame that costs more than, say, a Trek Madone. You get the price of a Pegoretti Love #3, an aluminum frame that costs more than a Co-Motion Ristretto. You get the price of a Sachs-issimo, a bespoke steel frame that costs more than a Zanconato frame...

Should I go on?

There's something about the Meivici's price that bugs you. It really can't be that one frame costs more than another made of the same general materials, with the same general options, costs more than another.

Maybe it's the sheer magnitude of the price? We all have our ceilings.

[Serotta PETE]

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/superbe54-big.jpeg

[catulle]

.

[obtuse]

the Porsche analogy is good.........we all have our own idea of what will satisfy us.........and no 2 of us are the same.......

Len

Look me in the eye
Then, tell me that I’m satisfied
Was you satisfied?
Look me in the eye
Then, tell me that I’m satisfied
Hey, are you satisfied?

And it goes so slowly on
Everything I’ve ever wanted
Tell me what’s wrong

Look me in the eye
And tell me that I’m satisfied
Were you satisfied?
Look me in the eye
Then, tell me I’m satisfied
And now are you satisfied?

Everything goes
Well, anything goes all of the time
Everything you dream of
Is right in front of you
And everything is a lie (or) and liberty is a lie

Look me in the eye
And tell me that I’m satisfed
Look me in the eye
Unsatisfied
I’m so, I’m so unsatisfied
I’m so dissatisfied
I’m so, I’m so unsatisfied
I’m so unsatisfied
Well, i’m-a
I’m so, I’m so unsatisfied
I’m so dissatis,dissattis...
I’m so

[SPOKE]

just maybe your idea of the ideal bike is in a continuous state of change??
you've had/have many great bikes, several were/are custom yet for some reason they never quite matched up to your "ideal" performance requirements.
my bet is that most of these bikes were great riding but you happened to take a friends bike for a ride and realized that you really liked the way your friend's bike performed. this additional knowledge that you gained from this test ride caused you to change your beliefs in how your "ideal" bike should perform. simply, your "ideal" target keeps moving.

what i've done is just learn to appreciate the differences of all the bikes i have/had. i've only had one bad bike since i started riding and that's because it was too small for me so i never felt balanced over the wheels. lesson learned :crap:

[obtuse]

spoke's point actually resonates with me. i only think about bikes when i'm thinking about bikes. when i'm actually in good form and riding well it almost doesn't matter. sure, some bikes are better, some bikes are all noodly and a mess when pushed into a corner, but as long as they fit and the geometry is within a proper range that was figured out along time ago and they work right and they've got round wheels and nice tires and a decently shaped handlebar thats in the right place, and nice long cranks and big chainrings i have absolutely nothing to complain about. honestly if someone told me that the shi'ite box giordana i've been riding over the winter cost $10,000 i'd be ok with it and it would still be cheap compared to many other things that are not as finely crafted, as purposeful and as wonderful to utilize as a race bike.

obtuse

[pdxmech13]

Cost shouldn't stop anyone from buying what they want.

Sometimes I believe we all think way too much and should just buy what feels rite and what we lust after.

what do i know though

[vaxn8r]

Cost shouldn't stop anyone from buying what they want.

Sometimes I believe we all think way too much and should just buy what feels rite and what we lust after.

what do i know though
Some people will never be satisfied unless they perceive it's more costly/exclusive no matter what the measurable benefits, if there are any to measure. To a certain extent this applies to all of us (else we wouldn't be here).

[shinomaster]

one man's ceiling is another man's flaw atmo...

ceiling - wife
flaw - ex wife

You can't use that joke twice atmo.

[flydhest]

this was debating?

[sspielman]

one man's ceiling is another man's flaw atmo...

ceiling - wife
flaw - ex wife

Reminds me of the great quote from Kink Friedman, "Every time you see a beautiful woman, just remember, somebody got tired of her sh*t...."

[Serotta PETE]

Reminds me of the great quote from Kink Friedman, "Every time you see a beautiful woman, just remember, somebody got tired of her sh*t...."

There was a famous lady that also had a remark to that effect about a "beautiful man"............. ;) :D