Frame geometry question

[Waldo]

What kind of ride would this geometry produce?

* Seat tube: 60cm c-c
* Top tube: 58.5cm c-c
* Head angle: 73.0 degrees
* Seat angle: 73.0 degrees
* BB drop: 8.0cm
* Chainstay: 41.0cm
* Fork offset: 41mm

[jimcav]

but with a 41 rake and 73 HTA that should have more trail=more stable and also the BB drop of 8 vice 7 means not designed for hard cornering (you'd catch a pedal)
the chainstays are longer than some more race-designed machines that use 40.2-40.5.
you probably want to know the wheelbase and front center distance and HT length too--a large HT might put you in a more upright position for comfort

so i am guessing overall it is a good stable ride?
is this a test?--if you include the make/model many manufacturers usually have a design in mind for intended use and that will tell you something about ride

[Grant McLean]

What kind of ride would this geometry produce?

* Seat tube: 60cm c-c
* Top tube: 58.5cm c-c
* Head angle: 73.0 degrees
* Seat angle: 73.0 degrees
* BB drop: 8.0cm
* Chainstay: 41.0cm
* Fork offset: 41mm


Hi Vlad,

I think I know what's going on here!!

What stem length, and crank length do you ride?
Do you know your seat height - center of crank to top of saddle number?

g

[J.Greene]

vlad, we need to know more. like what color.

JG

What kind of ride would this geometry produce?

* Seat tube: 60cm c-c
* Top tube: 58.5cm c-c
* Head angle: 73.0 degrees
* Seat angle: 73.0 degrees
* BB drop: 8.0cm
* Chainstay: 41.0cm
* Fork offset: 41mm

[sspielman]

Thi isn't going to be one of those Taiwanese Colnagos, ATMO, is it?

[Archibald]

What kind of ride would this geometry produce?

* Seat tube: 60cm c-c
* Top tube: 58.5cm c-c
* Head angle: 73.0 degrees
* Seat angle: 73.0 degrees
* BB drop: 8.0cm
* Chainstay: 41.0cm
* Fork offset: 41mm
Generic. What will matter more is how you drape yourself over it.

[Waldo]

Additional information the group requested:

bb to top of saddle: 79cm.
stem length: 120 or 125mm
crank length: 180
color: silver

Not a Taiwanese Colnago :no:

[Grant McLean]

You're in the zone. I assume you've had 8cm bb drop with 180's before?
I have shrimpy 170's, and prefer 8cm for sure, but don't know how much
of an issue, if any, the extra crank length might be.

As Archie said, that's pretty std euro race geometry. Depending on what
characteristics you like, another 'style' would be to stretch out the wheelbase
a bit, and shrink the trail a bit. The longer wheelbase is more stable, and yet
the less trail is zippy feeling.

So you might end up at:

59 top tube
73.5 headtube
47mm rake
42cm chainstays

Any builders out there have any thoughts???

g

[Fat Robert]

and also the BB drop of 8 vice 7 means not designed for hard cornering (you'd catch a pedal)



not

[Fat Robert]

vlad, i'd probably prefer a longer stem

nothing in that geo is wack. looks like a sensible bike for a guy who doesn't have his bars real low and maybe has lost some reach flexibility. french fit level tt...maybe?

guessing that the saddle setback from bb is 8-9cm?

[atmo]

Any builders out there have any thoughts???

g
atmo 41cm is too short for that size rider and
way too short for efficient use of a 10 cog cassette.

[obtuse]

What kind of ride would this geometry produce?

* Seat tube: 60cm c-c
* Top tube: 58.5cm c-c
* Head angle: 73.0 degrees
* Seat angle: 73.0 degrees
* BB drop: 8.0cm
* Chainstay: 41.0cm
* Fork offset: 41mm

should be fine, but i'd either increase the setback a bit, decrease the top tube length a bit or steepen the headangle and change the fork. the front center should be just a tiny bit shorter for the balance i'd like to see.

as an aside a 45mm rake'll work better with a 73 degree head angle imho given the rest of the numbers you've got here. then again, i've never seen yu and hopefully your framebuilder knows what he's doing.

41cm stays sound a bit short for 8cm of drop.....

my suspicion is also that a 60cm c-c bike built out of modern oversize tubes will probably sit too tall for someone with an 80cm saddle height....but i have no idea how much drop you want to run....

obtuse

[obtuse]

atmo 41cm is too short for that size rider and
way too short for efficient use of a 10 cog cassette.


dude-
i can't even type it before you beat me to it.....

obtuse

[obtuse]

59 top tube
73.5 headtube
47mm rake
42cm chainstays

Any builders out there have any thoughts???

g


not a builder-but that wheelbase will be a bit on the whacked out stupid long side for a bike of that size.

obtuse

[Grant McLean]

not a builder-but that wheelbase will be a bit on the whacked out stupid long side for a bike of that size.

obtuse

I don't think it's any different that what you said, pal.

you said 41 is too short, and suggested 45 rake.
I said 47 rake, 5mm more top tube, and haul it back in by increasing the
head angle a bit.

Colango's with their 71 head angles have longer front centers than what
I just proposed.

no? atmo??

g

[Archibald]

How can any of you MP mofos can give him any advice without knowing something about HIM? Kee-rist. He might be built like Pinnochio and be all legs or a card carrying teletubby who's all torso. All the 1/4 degree here, 1/2 centimeter there, geometry changes in the world won't be any close than another. Do you guys all have his fit chart in front you or something? Is this an inside joke?

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[obtuse]

I don't think it's any different that what you said, pal.

you said 41 is too short, and suggested 45 rake.
I said 47 rake, 5mm more top tube, and haul it back in by increasing the
head angle a bit.

Colango's with their 71 head angles have longer front centers than what
I just proposed.

no? atmo??

g


in these big sizes sizes the colnagos have 73.3-73.5 degree head angles so the front centers aren't getting any longer...a 62 has a 609mm front center. plus the fork rake is a 43.....the thing is on the bigger bikes its important to tuck the front wheel back a little bit under the rider.....you better be putting alot more weight over the front end of a bigger colnago than you need to on a like sized de-rosa for example where the headangles are much steeper....this is why the big ones like very long stems and/or guys without much upper body mass.

obtuse

[obtuse]

How can any of you MP mofos can give him any advice without knowing something about HIM? Kee-rist. He might be built like Pinnochio and be all legs or a card carrying teletubby who's all torso. All the 1/4 degree here, 1/2 centimeter there, geometry changes in the world won't be any close than another. Do you guys all have his fit chart in front you or something? Is this an inside joke?

:banana: :banana: :banana:


yes on the inside joke part. no on the fit chart.


chikita banana,
obtuse

[Grant McLean]

in these big sizes sizes the colnagos have 73.3-73.5 degree head angles so the front centers aren't getting any longer...a 62 has a 609mm front center. plus the fork rake is a 43.....the thing is on the bigger bikes its important to tuck the front wheel back a little bit under the rider.....obtuse

You make it sound like we're saying different things, when we're not.
I'm only suggesting a lower trail version of the nago, with longer chainstays.
I don't think it's any different that what ATMO builds, but seriously,
what do i know?

g

[obtuse]

You make it sound like we're saying different things, when we're not.
I'm only suggesting a lower trail version of the nago, with longer chainstays.
I don't think it's any different that what ATMO builds, but seriously,
what do i know?

g


i don't know....more than me i'd have to assume. i just think that longer chainstays gotta be done in accordance with a shorter front center so the wheelbase doesn't get all long and wonky......not to speak for atmo but he's not just putting long stays on a colnago front end with lower trail.

my first response to vlad was tonque in cheek nit-picking on a bike a i know nothing about for a rider i know nothing about.

my response to you was simply that i feel that in big sized bikes (the only ones i have any real first hand experience with) begin to suck if the wheelbase gets past a certain point regardless of what is done with the trail measurement. the thing just ends up not balancing right....while taking a bike in your size and increasing the stays may make for a bike that handles within range; at the extremes of size you're already building at the edge of workable parameters due to the locked in wheelsize and the like.....building a bike a cm or two longer in the stays pushes the whole design out of range when we are dealing with bikes in the bigger sizes.

it is a gestalt thing and its tough to talk about any bike measurement in the abstract.....but i think big colnagos work because the rear ends are short and the front centers are longish.....the wheelbase numbers are pretty much the same as other bikes made in italy in those sizes by builders who get it.


good discussion...let's keep it going.

obtuse

[Serotta PETE]

I have an EXACTO designed by non other then El Cab. It fits great and comes with red trimmings and a trail of .75 liter....


It is a great ride....I think the angle of pour is about 45%. No shimmy at all.

Yes..Campy opener is included....

Made in the Alexander valley or Calif.

[dauwhe]

I'm 173 cm (floor to top) and 70kg. Will I lead a happy life?

[atmo]

I'm 173 cm (floor to top) and 70kg. Will I lead a happy life?
did you alot for that car insurance atmo?

[stevep]

i have a like new lambert that will fit you like a glove.
perfect. like a custom.
in stock
on sale
today
only
yep
by
a

[jimcav]

not
likely will have 175-180 cranks? with a 8 cm drop you will be more likely to catch a pedal.
obviously this is not a thread for much discussion, but i am curious as to the flat out "not"
but i did not have any wheelbase info either

[Grant McLean]

likely will have 175-180 cranks? with a 8 cm drop you will be more likely to catch a pedal.
obviously this is not a thread for much discussion, but i am curious as to the flat out "not"
but i did not have any wheelbase info either

hey jim,
We've discussed this here before ad nauseum, sorry if you missed it,
but robert was giving the short hand, cliffs notes answer.

It's based on the fact that you can't pedal while taking a corner fast,
so it's not relevant.

g

[Grant McLean]

.

[LegendRider]

hey jim,
We've discussed this here before ad nauseum, sorry if you missed it,
but robert was giving the short hand, cliffs notes answer.

It's based on the fact that you can't pedal while taking a corner fast,
so it's not relevant.

g

I understand the argument (and I read all the previous posts), but it presupposes you will be taking corners fast. Maybe in Pro/1/2 events that would be a fair assumption, but certainly not in Cat 3 crits. Lots of jokers don't know how to corner which oftentimes slows YOU down. Consequently, you're forced to pedal through corners and clearance is a real issue.

[atmo]

I understand the argument (and I read all the previous posts), but it presupposes you will be taking corners fast. Maybe in Pro/1/2 events that would be a fair assumption, but certainly not in Cat 3 crits. Lots of jokers don't know how to corner which oftentimes slows YOU down. Consequently, you're forced to pedal through corners and clearance is a real issue.
atmo if you're going that slow owing to congestion,
the lean angle and/or the speed won't be a factor.

[Grant McLean]

I understand the argument (and I read all the previous posts), but it presupposes you will be taking corners fast. Maybe in Pro/1/2 events that would be a fair assumption, but certainly not in Cat 3 crits. Lots of jokers don't know how to corner which oftentimes slows YOU down. Consequently, you're forced to pedal through corners and clearance is a real issue.

Sure, i follow what you're saying, but if you're not going fast,
why is your bike leaned over far enough for the clearance to be an issue?

Also, as E-Richie always said - go around. Braking is for suckers. :)

g

[J.Greene]

. Lots of jokers don't know how to corner which oftentimes slows YOU down. Consequently, you're forced to pedal through corners and clearance is a real issue.

I ride in the front, because the jokers are in the back. It's easier upfront anyway. And I need to make it easy cause I lack talent.

JG

[vaxn8r]

Whatever Obtuse said but add 3 mm to the stays...ATMO.

[jimcav]

Sure, i follow what you're saying, but if you're not going fast,
why is your bike leaned over far enough for the clearance to be an issue?

Also, as E-Richie always said - go around. Braking is for suckers. :)

g

okay, i see for that appliation ie crit style cornering--obviously i don't know the rider/use background, but i have nearly clipped my pedal doing turns with traffic (cars) on my commuting do to various road irregularities, but mainly when i have to cut more into a corner than intended because some car is intent on being there with me--curbs and such--i would not have wanted to be on an 8mm drop as i would not have stayed up. so i have learned to be careful on turns--but just the other day i was on the shoulder and some a-ho tuns/cuts right in front of me to pull into a gas station, i had no choice but to turn hard and my foot was where it was--made it but barely. having never ridden a bike with a 8 drop i guess i don't really know if it would matter, but i thought it would

[cpg]

What kind of ride would this geometry produce?

* Seat tube: 60cm c-c
* Top tube: 58.5cm c-c
* Head angle: 73.0 degrees
* Seat angle: 73.0 degrees
* BB drop: 8.0cm
* Chainstay: 41.0cm
* Fork offset: 41mm

Like a bike. Like Archibald said, sort of generic. In other words, it will work because it's been done a million times but here's the kicker- it's virtually impossible to make an unridable bike. With that said, it will work but could work better if, like atmo stated, the chain stays were a little longer along with the fork rake. But that's commenting on a the geometry as a stock bike. It's not taking the rider into consideration. What does your butt say?

Curt

[atmo]

What does your butt say?

Curt

whoa :no: atmo.

[cpg]

I figured I could ask Vlad that. Don't ask Archibald that question though. It ain't pretty if you know what I mean.

Curt

[Waldo]

My butt says... Never mind what it says.

The frame does not exist yet. I am trying to design a frame that goes fairly fast in straight lines, climbs well, inspires confidence on descents, and is stable riding no-hands. I don't need to shoot through gaps in crit fields and don't plan to pedal through corners. I am not worried about toe overlap. Hell, I might even put a 190 crank on this frame.

[atmo]

The frame does not exist yet. I am trying to design a frame that...<cut>.
what does the telai-ista say atmo?

[pdxmech13]

atmo 41cm is too short for that size rider and
way too short for efficient use of a 10 cog cassette.

I get the first part but the second is confussing my stupid a**

[Waldo]

Has not said anything yet. He asked for a favorite geometry and this is what I gave him and now I'm seeking forum's comments. I know this is a bit a**-backwards, but there's a 5-month wait so I can make alterations in my request. Perhaps on the subject of chainstays, which ATMO raised yesterday, I'll tell him to make them long enough to fit a 700x25 tire comfortably and let him determine the exact length?

[Archibald]

I figured I could ask Vlad that. Don't ask Archibald that question though. It ain't pretty if you know what I mean.

Curt
I fart in your general direction. :butt:

[atmo]

I get the first part but the second is confussing my stupid a**
the drive train loses efficiency (read: gains friction) as the
cogs get closer to the c'ings, unless we're talking fixed gears.

all modern rigs are 10sp. think about those poor outboard
cogs and the slight(est) misalignments, and the gritty chain,
and the times you reach for combos that wanna eff you for
doing so...

well, atmo short chainstays (41cm) exacerbate that ten-fold.

[Archibald]

My butt says... Never mind what it says.

The frame does not exist yet. I am trying to design a frame that goes fairly fast in straight lines, climbs well, inspires confidence on descents, and is stable riding no-hands. I don't need to shoot through gaps in crit fields and don't plan to pedal through corners. I am not worried about toe overlap. Hell, I might even put a 190 crank on this frame.
420 stays with 75-80mm bb drop, I'd probably stick to a 73 STA if you're going to use a setback post. Front end I'd tighten up to a 74 with a 40 or 43mm rake fork. Adjust your top tube so you can use a 130 stem. It will rock.

[Archibald]

the drive train loses efficiency (read: gains friction) as the
cogs get closer to the c'ings, unless we're talking fixed gears.

all modern rigs are 10sp. think about those poor outboard
cogs and the slight(est) misalignments, and the gritty chain,
and the times you reach for combos that wanna eff you for
doing so...

well, atmo short chainstays (41cm) exacerbate that ten-fold.
Atmo speaks the truth. 410s start getting scruffy with 9spd.

[cpg]

Who is Telai-ista?

Curt

[cpg]

I fart in your general direction. :butt:

I'd love to reciprocate but I'm just finishing up with a bout of the flu. Maybe in a day or two.

Curt

[jeffg]

Who is Telai-ista?

Curt


Guessing it is the framebuilder, who should be the decider atmo ;)

[Archibald]

I'd love to reciprocate but I'm just finishing up with a bout of the flu. Maybe in a day or two.

Curt
Thanks for the visual. :rolleyes:

[Waldo]

Akio Tanabe

[sspielman]

I'd love to reciprocate but I'm just finishing up with a bout of the flu. Maybe in a day or two.

Curt

Now is as good a time as any to quote my uncle Billy...whose advice remains timeless for the ages...."Never force a fart..."

[Archibald]

Guessing it is the framebuilder, who should be the decider atmo ;)
No way, these things should always be sussed out on the internet and then provided to the builder as a plan to follow. The builder is just a hired hand, not much different than a plumber, actually the only difference is the magnitude of the butt crack you'll see.

[jeffg]

No way, these things should always be sussed out on the internet and then provided to the builder as a plan to follow. The builder is just a hired hand, not much different than a plumber, actually the only difference is the magnitude of the butt crack you'll see.

there is no response to my setback question. Should I just post the geo for the folks here to critique and then inform the builder what the geo should be? Thanks for clearing that up.

P.S. I will also ask the builder to fetch me a shrubbery (one that's not too expensive)

[atmo]

The builder is just a hired hand, not much different than a plumber...<cut>

and he's nuttin' without the proper tools atmo.

[gt6267a]

Now is as good a time as any to quote my uncle Billy...whose advice remains timeless for the ages...."Never force a fart..."

uncle billy was a smart man.

[bcm119]

proceed with extreme caution.

I'd love to reciprocate but I'm just finishing up with a bout of the flu. Maybe in a day or two.

Curt

[Archibald]

there is no response to my setback question. Should I just post the geo for the folks here to critique and then inform the builder what the geo should be? Thanks for clearing that up.

P.S. I will also ask the builder to fetch me a shrubbery (one that's not too expensive)
You have to realize that framebuilders just aren't as smart as we are. They're struggling to make a living with their own two hands (isn't that quaint in today's global economy? Proof that if you don't grow you will lag behind!) while we pontificate about the finer points of bicycle geometry and handling traits and in the process arm ourselves with a body of knowledge they could never hope to grasp the magnitude of, let alone, understand.

To be blunt, they're uneducated serfs and need to be told what to do by those in power; namely, us. We are plantation owners and they are sharecroppers whose existence we only tolerate out of the kindness of our hearts and our fine Christian sensibilities.

Personally, I say phock them! Let them eat cake!

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[obtuse]

420 stays with 75-80mm bb drop, I'd probably stick to a 73 STA if you're going to use a setback post. Front end I'd tighten up to a 74 with a 40 or 43mm rake fork. Adjust your top tube so you can use a 130 stem. It will rock.


stop copying me.

obtuse

[manet]

...
Personally, I say phock them! Let 'em eat kugel!



.

[atmo]

.
amen sistah atmo.
go mental -

[cpg]

You have to realize that framebuilders just aren't as smart as we are. They're struggling to make a living with their own two hands (isn't that quaint in today's global economy? Proof that if you don't grow you will lag behind!) while we pontificate about the finer points of bicycle geometry and handling traits and in the process arm ourselves with a body of knowledge they could never hope to grasp the magnitude of, let alone, understand.

To be blunt, they're uneducated serfs and need to be told what to do by those in power; namely, us. We are plantation owners and they are sharecroppers whose existence we only tolerate out of the kindness of our hearts and our fine Christian sensibilities.

Personally, I say phock them! Let them eat cake!

:banana: :banana: :banana:

I was about to say you're hurting my feelings but alas I haven't any. What were you saying again? Just tell me where to cut the bloody tube!

Curt

[gt6267a]

amen sistah atmo.
go mental -

i think kugel is over rated. the lox i had from zabar's over the weekend, now that stuff is the cheese!

[manet]

i think kugel is over rated. the lox i had from zabar's over the weekend, now that stuff is the cheese!

and they all moved over on the group w bench

[Archibald]

You have to realize that framebuilders just aren't as smart as we are. They're struggling to make a living with their own two hands (isn't that quaint in today's global economy? Proof that if you don't grow you will lag behind!) while we pontificate about the finer points of bicycle geometry and handling traits and in the process arm ourselves with a body of knowledge they could never hope to grasp the magnitude of, let alone, understand.

To be blunt, they're uneducated serfs and need to be told what to do by those in power; namely, us. We are plantation owners and they are sharecroppers whose existence we only tolerate out of the kindness of our hearts and our fine Christian sensibilities.

Personally, I say phock them! Let them eat cake!

:banana: :banana: :banana:
Too much bait and not enough hook or too much hook and not enough bait?

[Grant McLean]

Too much bait and not enough hook or too much hook and not enough bait?

I'll bite...

I'm sure this will come out wrong, but here are some thoughts.

So far on this forum we've discussed many times about how much input the
customer should give the builder. Lets spin this concept around and talk about
how has the rider decided that they know what they want?

Does the rider know what they want? In the end, this is the all important
question, right? When you order a 'custom' bike, the greatest fear the client
has is that it's not going to be what they want, and the whole process was
for nothing. If the rider has tried a bunch of bikes, learning each time what
is closer to their goal each time, they should begin to understand what is
going to work for them. Why toss all that aside, and just say to the builder,
'make me what you think will work'.

Obviously, lots (maybe MOST) clients won't know what they want on that level.
They have neither the experience nor the interest in figuring it out for themselves.

g

[Archibald]

I'll bite...

I'm sure this will come out wrong, but here are some thoughts.

So far on this forum we've discussed many times about how much input the
customer should give the builder. Lets spin this concept around and talk about how has the rider decided that they know what they want?

Does the rider know what they want? In the end, this is the all important
question, right? When you order a 'custom' bike, the greatest fear the client
has is that it's not going to be what they want, and the whole process was
for nothing. If the rider has tried a bunch of bikes, learning each time what
is closer to their goal each time, they should begin to understand what is
going to work for them. Why toss all that aside, and just say to the builder,
'make me what you think will work'.

Obviously, lots (maybe MOST) clients won't know what they want on that level.
They have neither the experience nor the interest in figuring it out for themselves.

g
You have to realize that the clients just aren't as smart as framebuilders are. They're struggling to make a living with their white collars weighing them down (isn't that quaint in today's global economy? Proof that if you don't grow you will lag behind!) while framebuilders pontificate about the finer points of bicycle geometry and handling traits and in the process arm themselves with a body of knowledge they could never hope to grasp the magnitude of, let alone, understand.

To be blunt, the clients are uneducated serfs and need to be told what to do by those in power; namely, the framebuilders. They are plantation owners and we are sharecroppers whose existence is only tolerated out of the kindness of their hearts and their fine Christian sensibilities. They might even toss us a few crumbs if we humble ourselves before them.

[Climb01742]

well, atmo short chainstays (41cm) exacerbate that ten-fold.

"exacerbate". sounds dirty. hehe.

[Grant McLean]

You have to realize that the clients just aren't as smart as framebuilders are.

That's a cute story. If framebuilders are as smart as you say, they'll
find their own process to insure the client's expectations are being met.

Any builders here want to explain how they do that?


g

[atmo]

"exacerbate". sounds dirty. hehe.
it's the weekend.
go wild atmo -

[atmo]

That's a cute story. If framebuilders are as smart as you say, they'll
find their own process to insure the client's expectations are being met.

Any builders here want to explain how they do that?


g
it's ensure, not insure atmo.

[catulle]

What kind of ride would this geometry produce?

* Seat tube: 60cm c-c
* Top tube: 58.5cm c-c
* Head angle: 73.0 degrees
* Seat angle: 73.0 degrees
* BB drop: 8.0cm
* Chainstay: 41.0cm
* Fork offset: 41mm

It'll make a wonderful frame for some. For many others it won't work.

[Grant McLean]

it's ensure, not insure atmo.

don't you have insurance?

:)

[atmo]

It'll make a wonderful frame for some. For many others it won't work.
right -
but atmo the key question to me
is what does the question mean:
What kind of ride would this geometry produce?

i mean - i'm in the trenches and i am not sure
how to answer such a question (thus, i haven't).

[J.Greene]

don't you have insurance?

:)

it depends

JG

[catulle]

it's ensure, not insure atmo.

:eek:

[cpg]

it's ensure, not insure atmo.


Maybe it's the Qneen's English?

Curt

[cpg]

Maybe it's the Qneen's English?

Curt


Oops. Make that the Queen's English.

Curt

[cpg]

That's a cute story. If framebuilders are as smart as you say, they'll
find their own process to insure the client's expectations are being met.

Any builders here want to explain how they do that?


g

We could tell you but then we would have to kill you. Bad for business no? Hey it's Friday and I'm not puking. :banana:
Curt

[catulle]

Maybe it's the Qneen's English?

Curt

Nope, Dr. Peddie is correct. Besides, Nietzsche said that Queen is dead.

[Grant McLean]

We could tell you but then we would have to kill you. Bad for business no? Hey it's Friday and I'm not puking. :banana:
Curt

that's actually a pretty honest answer!

Happiness must exsist somewhere between Archi's 'shut up and let me build'
comment, and the customer being able to describe in a language the builder
can understand what it is they're trying to 'get'. Personally, I need to
have either A) total trust or B) a really good explaination, before i'm feeling
good about any purchase. The whole "don't worry you'll like it" thing doesn't
work for me. I will worry. It scares me most if they start explaining and it
sounds like a bunch of malarkey.

g

[Archibald]

that's actually a pretty honest answer!

Happiness must exsist somewhere between Archi's 'shut up and let me build'
comment, and the customer being able to describe in a language the builder
can understand what it is they're trying to 'get'. Personally, I need to
have either A) total trust or B) a really good explaination, before i'm feeling
good about any purchase. The whole "don't worry you'll like it" thing doesn't
work for me. I will worry. It scares me most if they start explaining and it
sounds like a bunch of malarkey.

g
Doood, all kidding aside, you're reading more into my "joke" than is intended. Don't do that. :no:

[Grant McLean]

Doood, all kidding aside, you're reading more into my "joke" than is intended. Don't do that. :no:

Ya, I know you were joking, but I also know what you saying.
The 'don't worry you'll like it' is what you get from Nagasawa.

g

[Archibald]

Ya, I know you were joking, but I also know what you saying.
The 'don't worry you'll like it' is what you get from Nagasawa.

g
Actually that's not what I was saying at all. The best clients are the educated ones who give you their input, their needs, and then leave you alone until you're very, very, late. :)

The worst are the ones that call or email 3 times a day, every day, sweating every mm and every twelfth degree while wobbling back and forth the whole time between wanting a bike being used for crit racing and one being used for cyclocross. :crap:

[RPS]

What kind of ride would this geometry produce?

* Seat tube: 60cm c-c
* Top tube: 58.5cm c-c
* Head angle: 73.0 degrees
* Seat angle: 73.0 degrees
* BB drop: 8.0cm
* Chainstay: 41.0cm
* Fork offset: 41mmTry this, you'll like it :rolleyes:

* Seat tube: 60cm c-c
* Top tube: 0 cm c-c
* Head angle: 90.0 degrees
* Seat angle: 90.0 degrees
* BB drop: 0 cm
* Chainstay: 0 cm
* Fork offset: 0 mm

And then perhaps the obsession over the perfect geometry will diminish. Worked for me -- got it out of my system at an early age.

[Grant McLean]

And then perhaps the obsession over the perfect geometry will diminish. Worked for me -- got it out of my system at an early age.

That's really helpful, that's for adding your input to the discussion!


g

[RPS]

That's really helpful, that's for adding your input to the discussion!


gI'm not trying to be a smart @$$; maybe just suggesting a little humility? :confused: . Like Weinberg said, “the more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless” (or something similar).

Why do we find it so hard to accept that some things just don't have answers. Religion, the "perfect" bicycle geometry, etc........

[atmo]

Why do we find it so hard to accept that some things just don't have answers. Religion, the "perfect" bicycle geometry, etc........
ya know - atmo that is very poignant. i have a very close
pal that once was trying to help me through a tar and feathers
period in my life, and his comment to me wrt a particular
issue i wrestled with was sometimes the only answer to
the question why is because. i believe such is the case in
bicycle design and construction. that gestalt thing i summon
up now and then has its roots in this. the variables are boundless
and nailing them down in order to assign a meaning is beyond
the scope of what i am capable of. ironic, this - that framebuilders
and frame consumers often speak such different patois atmo.

[Grant McLean]

Why do we find it so hard to accept that some things just don't have answers. Religion, the "perfect" bicycle geometry, etc........

I don't think it's about perfection, as every decision is a compromise.
I believe in trying to optimize your choices. Obviously some will work better
for some people than others. But if you already tried something, and
know that you don't like it, why not try to get something you will like even
more? Isn't that a better option?

g

[Grant McLean]

ya know - atmo that is very poignant. i have a very close
pal that once was trying to help me through a tar and feathers
period in my life, and his comment to me wrt a particular
issue i wrestled with was sometimes the only answer to
the question why is because. i believe such is the case in
bicycle design and construction. that gestalt thing i summon
up now and then has its roots in this. the variables are boundless
and nailing them down in order to assign a meaning is beyond
the scope of what i am capable of. ironic, this - that framebuilders
and frame consumers often speak such different patois atmo.

To me, the consumer/end user, it's really just about putting all the pieces
of the puzzle in place. There is a solution. It's not about 'why' something
works, it's about 'how'. With no formal training, we bang around in the
dark, and bruise our shins on the furniture while learning where to put the
pieces together so they work.

g

[atmo]

To me, the consumer/end user, it's really just about putting all the pieces
of the puzzle in place. There is a solution. It's not about 'why' something
works, it's about 'how'. With no formal training, we bang around in the
dark, and bruise our shins on the furniture while learning where to put the
pieces together so they work.

g

atmo around here it's refered to as having
http://www.musicaldiscoveries.com/artwork/rcgabmfc.jpg

[stackie]

Atmo,

I have new respect for you. Not only are you a master of framebuilding, if not the master, but you also have a keen grasp of proper vocabulary well above that of the average citizen.

The insure for ensure exchange sands my gluteus maximus almost as much as people describing their strengths as there forte (for-tay).

Jon

[RPS]

To me, the consumer/end user, it's really just about putting all the pieces
of the puzzle in place. There is a solution. It's not about 'why' something
works, it's about 'how'. With no formal training, we bang around in the
dark, and bruise our shins on the furniture while learning where to put the
pieces together so they work.

gI love the fact that we are all so different; and I say that in the nicest way. Personally, I'm usually more intrigued by "why" something works the way it does. It's not that it's a better way to look at things, just different.

[Fat Robert]

The insure for ensure exchange sands my gluteus maximus almost as much as people describing their strengths as there forte (for-tay).

Jon


.

[catulle]

Atmo,

I have new respect for you. Not only are you a master of framebuilding, if not the master, but you also have a keen grasp of proper vocabulary well above that of the average citizen.

The insure for ensure exchange sands my gluteus maximus almost as much as people describing their strengths as there forte (for-tay).

Jon

What do you expect...? Atmo's English teacher was Shakespeare, when the Bard was teaching at Peddie. Yes, he's that old. As a matter of fact, Atmo's gluteus maximus... anyways, he's pretty old.

[RPS]

ya know - atmo that is very poignant. i have a very close
pal that once was trying to help me through a tar and feathers
period in my life, and his comment to me wrt a particular
issue i wrestled with was sometimes the only answer to
the question why is because. i believe such is the case in
bicycle design and construction. that gestalt thing i summon
up now and then has its roots in this. the variables are boundless
and nailing them down in order to assign a meaning is beyond
the scope of what i am capable of. ironic, this - that framebuilders
and frame consumers often speak such different patois atmo.atmo, I know I should stay out of these discussions because my views are normally different, and sometimes too radical for me to express them without being misunderstood. I certainly wasn’t trying to be poignant. I’ll limit my involvement to black-and-white technical issues based on facts rather than opinions.

I’ll ride just about anything and enjoy it for what it is. A unicycle is slow and uncomfortable as hell, but it is fun in its own way – once every ten years or so at my age. Ride one around the block and you’ll appreciate any bicycle, regardless of STA, stem length, top tube length, etc…. Mostly it increases my tolerance and keeps me from worrying about a degree or CM here or there.

Even if there was a “perfect” geometry and fit, I’m not sure I’d want it. I like variety. That’s what I was trying to express, albeit poorly.

[atmo]

atmo, I know I should stay out of these discussions because my views are normally different, and sometimes too radical for me to express them without being misunderstood. I certainly wasn’t trying to be poignant. I’ll limit my involvement to black-and-white technical issues based on facts rather than opinions.

I’ll ride just about anything and enjoy it for what it is. A unicycle is slow and uncomfortable as hell, but it is fun in its own way – once every ten years or so at my age. Ride one around the block and you’ll appreciate any bicycle, regardless of STA, stem length, top tube length, etc…. Mostly it increases my tolerance and keeps me from worrying about a degree or CM here or there.

Even if there was a “perfect” geometry and fit, I’m not sure I’d want it. I like variety. That’s what I was trying to express, albeit poorly.
i was agreeing with you atmo.

[Serpico]

...

The whole "don't worry you'll like it" thing doesn't
work for me.

...

and understandable concern, but you need a point to begin at. folks that have several bicycles (or frames) from the same builder probably move things around...? do they?

the point: I don't think anyone can just "hit" something. it would seem an earlier point of reference--preferably tactile--would be necessary to work from.

can someone confirm/deny this?