Wheel builders everywhere

[Jack Brunk]

Can a set of of tubular wheels be made of non carbon material and weigh 1200 grams? If so what components are needed and they need to be stiff for a 170lb rider.

Thanks

[pdxmech13]

what's stiff ?

[weiwentg]

(double posted, see below)

[pdxmech13]

lite hubs don't make fast wheels

[ergott]

no.

[weiwentg]

Go here:
http://www.rouesartisanales.com/photo-62034-poids-avant_jpg.html

these wheels weigh 1307g, with an 185g rear hub (I assume Tune's MAG 190) and a 75g front (TUNE's MIG 70). There's a MAG 160, which weighs closer to 170. there is a MIG 45 front hub, but it's a really, really tiny hub and I think it might only be for low spoke wheels - the hub is so small that you might not be able to get the spokes in, and they're straight pull spokes. you could use Am Classic's micro front, which is supposed to be 58g. you might check to see if Pillar's bladed ti spokes are lighter than the Sapim CX-rays this maniac is using. I think to really hit 1200g would require rims lighter than the 360g Ambrosio F20s, and those are already really light. old-school tubie rims lighter than 360g exist, as you know, but I'd question if they could hold up to the tension required to build a 9 or 10s rear wheel on the drive side.

if you're really hell-bent on this, surf Adrien's blog (roues artisanales). I don't think you can quite get down to 1200, but maybe 1250 is possible. it'll cost you an arm and a leg, as I'm sure you know, and I have no idea if they'll be stiff enough.

[ergott]

This is close without being total noodles.

Tune Mig 70
Tune Mag 190
Pillar ti spokes
alloy nipples
Mavic Silver Reflex rims

32 spokes 3X all around

1265g

add a few grams for a tie and solder job for good measure and they are definitely worth considering for most conditions.

[obtuse]

Can a set of of tubular wheels be made of non carbon material and weigh 1200 grams? If so what components are needed and they need to be stiff for a 170lb rider.

Thanks


the closest you're going to get is a pair of neutron ultras re-built with neutron tubular rims. they'll be plenty stiff enough but fall closer to the 1400gram mark. i've done this spendy operation for a bud who insisted. campy still offers neutron tubular replacement rims and they're great wheels and pretty light when built with the hyperon/neutron ultra hubs.

obtuse

ps your phil wood/ambrosio wheels do not weigh anything near 1200grams but they are the most bad-arse thing i've built in a while.

[ergott]

the closest you're going to get is a pair of neutron ultras re-built with neutron tubular rims. they'll be plenty stiff enough but fall closer to the 1400gram mark. i've done this spendy operation for a bud who insisted. campy still offers neutron tubular replacement rims and they're great wheels and pretty light when built with the hyperon/neutron ultra hubs.

obtuse

ps your phil wood/ambrosio wheels do not weigh anything near 1200grams but they are the most bad-arse thing i've built in a while.


Out of curiosity, what are the build specs of the Neutron hubs?

Thanks,

[Too Tall]

+1 for Ambrosia if you *Must* go light. Personally I think weight is overrated and a durable velocity escape with competition spokage or sim. in 28X32 with alloy nibbles is more than adequate for anything...you want to up the ante slap on some light tubular tyres but don't comprimise on rim strength.

[sspielman]

no.


I second that opinion. No.

[obtuse]

Out of curiosity, what are the build specs of the Neutron hubs?

Thanks,


ergott-
i'll check when i get to the shop and measure for all the vitals. they're 22 hole front and 24 hole rear.

obtuse

[Jeremy]

Can a set of of tubular wheels be made of non carbon material and weigh 1200 grams? If so what components are needed and they need to be stiff for a 170lb rider.

Thanks

This build would be close:

Tune Mag160 28 hole rear
Tune Mig45 24 hole front
Velocity Escape tubular
Sapim CX-Ray spokes with alloy nipples
1256g (if the rims weigh 390g ea)

The Velocity Escape is a nice tubular rim. It is certainly strong enough to use as a 28 hole rear and 24 hole front for a 170# rider if built well. The Mig45 front hub is not a "really, really tiny hub" as posted earlier. It is designed for straight pull spokes. It is available up to 28 holes. It has a 15mm axle and uses a very nice ceramic bearing (#6802 15x24x5). For comparison, the AmClassic front hub has a 10mm axle and uses bearing #688 (8x16x5). The Mag160 has a 15mm carbon axle and also uses very nice ceramic bearings (#6902 15x28x7, #6802 15x24x5).

Cheers,

Jeremy

[ada@prorider.or]

It is available up to 28 holes. It has a 15mm axle and uses a very nice ceramic bearing (#6802 15x24x5). For comparison, the AmClassic front hub has a 10mm axle and uses bearing #688 (8x16x5). The Mag160 has a 15mm carbon axle and also uses very nice ceramic bearings (#6902 15x28x7, #6802 15x24x5).

Cheers,

Jeremy

well 15x 24 x5 cannot handle the weight asked
there static load is too low




another question is why does some with that weight want very light wheels?
for climbing?
then he need really good stiff wheel

[chrisroph]

another question is why does some with that weight want very light wheels?
for climbing?


This is the question. Once you go down the path of buying and riding really light stuff, you will soon realize that for 99.9999% it really doesn't make any difference and that you'd be better off with solid serviceable stuff.

[sspielman]

Light
Cheap
Strong
Aero
....chose any two.......

[ergott]

This build would be close:

Tune Mag160 28 hole rear
Tune Mig45 24 hole front
Velocity Escape tubular
Sapim CX-Ray spokes with alloy nipples
1256g (if the rims weigh 390g ea)

The Velocity Escape is a nice tubular rim. It is certainly strong enough to use as a 28 hole rear and 24 hole front for a 170# rider if built well. The Mig45 front hub is not a "really, really tiny hub" as posted earlier. It is designed for straight pull spokes. It is available up to 28 holes. It has a 15mm axle and uses a very nice ceramic bearing (#6802 15x24x5). For comparison, the AmClassic front hub has a 10mm axle and uses bearing #688 (8x16x5). The Mag160 has a 15mm carbon axle and also uses very nice ceramic bearings (#6902 15x28x7, #6802 15x24x5).

Cheers,

Jeremy

I have Escape rims waiting to be built.

410g
408g

[Archibald]

This build would be close:

Tune Mag160 28 hole rear
Tune Mig45 24 hole front
Velocity Escape tubular
Sapim CX-Ray spokes with alloy nipples
1256g (if the rims weigh 390g ea)

The Velocity Escape is a nice tubular rim. It is certainly strong enough to use as a 28 hole rear and 24 hole front for a 170# rider if built well. The Mig45 front hub is not a "really, really tiny hub" as posted earlier. It is designed for straight pull spokes. It is available up to 28 holes. It has a 15mm axle and uses a very nice ceramic bearing (#6802 15x24x5). For comparison, the AmClassic front hub has a 10mm axle and uses bearing #688 (8x16x5). The Mag160 has a 15mm carbon axle and also uses very nice ceramic bearings (#6902 15x28x7, #6802 15x24x5).

Cheers,

Jeremy
Now replace the Escapes with Gel 280's, lace them 32 and 36 and you'll be at 1200.

I rule.

I am the Jedi supermaster of the old school!

:banana:

[Jeremy]

well 15x 24 x5 cannot handle the weight asked
there static load is too low

Cees,

You've made this misleading claim before. This bearing size is common in many hubs (DT, Tune, Lightweigt, ExtraLite, Zipp, etc...) Years and years of experience and millions of miles by professional racers and enthusiasts suggest that your statement is not accurate.

Jeremy

[ergott]

Now replace the Escapes with Gel 280's, lace them 32 and 36 and you'll be at 1200.


Ask Justin what he thinks of the Gel 280 I built him. 36 spoked noodle. I had it kicking around and asked him to put miles on it since he asked me about something similar. Lightweight box section rims of yesterdecade have serious issues with stiffness. I like to have a minimum tension of 110kgf on the rear drive side. When you start getting that tension on rims like the GEL, Crono F20, and similar they develop waves.

The silver Mavic Reflex is the lightest rim I like working with. I've built Ambros and they just don't true up to the same standards. The Reflex rims I have here are 376g each. The CD and Ceramics are more.

[Jeremy]

I have Escape rims waiting to be built.

410g
408g

Yes, actual rim weights are often a crap shoot. The last Escape build I did, the rims weighed 388g and 393g.

Jeremy

[Archibald]

I have Escape rims waiting to be built.

410g
408g
I have GEL 280s 32 & 36 spoke that weight 303 and 305 grams respectively.

[Archibald]

Ask Justin what he thinks of the Gel 280 I built him. 36 spoked noodle. I had it kicking around and asked him to put miles on it since he asked me about something similar. Lightweight box section rims of yesterdecade have serious issues with stiffness. I like to have a minimum tension of 110kgf on the rear drive side. When you start getting that tension on rims like the GEL, Crono F20, and similar they develop waves.

The silver Mavic Reflex is the lightest rim I like working with. I've built Ambros and they just don't true up to the same standards. The Reflex rims I have here are 376g each. The CD and Ceramics are more.
What drive side tension are you using on a 24 spoke rear wheel?

[ergott]

What drive side tension are you using on a 24 spoke rear wheel?


?

[ergott]

Yes, actual rim weights are often a crap shoot. The last Escape build I did, the rims weighed 388g and 393g.

Jeremy


Yeah, WW's love that.

"your wheels should weigh about X"

"What the hell do my wheels weigh X+20?"

I always give conservative numbers because of this. I'd much rather someone be happy when they weigh less than expected. Then again, I don't have to tell you this. ;)

[Archibald]

?
You stated you liked a 110kgf on the rear drive side. I'm asking you if you maintain that regardless of spoke count.

[ergott]

You stated you liked a 110kgf on the rear drive side. I'm asking you if you maintain that regardless of spoke count.


I prefer a tension or about 120-125kgf. I base the tension I use on the components' specifications. I bring the right up to their recommendations regardless of spoke count. Many carbon rims ask for only 110kgf.

[Too Tall]

Agree that the Ambros need some love and tender care however they are serioulsy strong and good quality. If you are willing to touch up the rear wheel now and again.

[Archibald]

I prefer a tension or about 120-125kgf. I base the tension I use on the components' specifications. I bring the right up to their recommendations regardless of spoke count. Many carbon rims ask for only 110kgf.
It's interesting to me, I don't measure spoke tension, but I've never had the problems you're referring to on the 280s and with a 32/36 F&R, they're definitely light wheels, but not complete noodles. I've taken them down some pretty fast mountain decents and quite honestly couldn't tell a whit of difference between them, GP4s or even new Reflexs. I have a little more gravity than the orginal poster to boot.

[Spicoli]

See now you cant get mad! but with regard to Ambrosio's getting wavy at high tension. I say who cares if it has a little wave, as long as its not flopping and stays consistant over time. Kinda like taking a lil wiggle in exchange for even spoke tension? Not a big deal and most of the time you can only notice it in a truing stand anyhoo? Or shiny spots in the brake track. Not a big deal if you ask me. No wheel is perfect in all directions and tension, its always give and take IMO.

[ergott]

It's interesting to me, I don't measure spoke tension, but I've never had the problems you're referring to on the 280s and with a 32/36 F&R, they're definitely light wheels, but not complete noodles. I've taken them down some pretty fast mountain decents and quite honestly couldn't tell a whit of difference between them, GP4s or even new Reflexs. I have a little more gravity than the orginal poster to boot.

What hubs/spokes did you build the gel rims to?

The GP4 and similar are more robust. I think that 370g and above are about the limit to alloy tubular rims that I care to recommend in the future. I have a set of GP4's waiting for my own use. Thinking of using PWs I have here.

As you say, there are plenty of people that can ride them without issue, and if someone requests them, I'll build them. The F20s and similar I've sent out have had good track records. I just prefer to err on conservative side with my recommendations.

[Archibald]

What hubs/spokes did you build the gel rims to?

The GP4 and similar are more robust. I think that 370g and above are about the limit to alloy tubular rims that I care to recommend in the future. I have a set of GP4's waiting for my own use. Thinking of using PWs I have here.

As you say, there are plenty of people that can ride them without issue, and if someone requests them, I'll build them. The F20s and similar I've sent out have had good track records. I just prefer to err on conservative side with my recommendations.
Spokes are Revos, on one set both were laced to old school Zipps (what can I say, they were laying around and bushings are cool!) and on the other the front hub is a polished high flanged Nuevo Tipo (always loved the looks of them) and the rear was an 8spd Record. I get you that they're not the most robust wheels, but no 1200-gram non-carbon wheelset is going to be robust. I'm not clued in on carbon wheelsets, but I doubt at 1200 grams, they're going to be very robust either.

[ada@prorider.or]

Cees,

You've made this misleading claim before. This bearing size is common in many hubs (DT, Tune, Lightweigt, ExtraLite, Zipp, etc...) Years and years of experience and millions of miles by professional racers and enthusiasts suggest that your statement is not accurate.

Jeremy

well i thave taken my book from the bearing compagny
and the static stress number is (what called in german ermudungs grenzbelastung) this is the number it max can reach with our damage the bearing is
15x24x5 ................56 newton
this mean if you take a rider 170 lbs =775 newton
devide his weight by 2 front and back wheeleach 50 %of the weight
775/2= 387,5 then devide by two for 2 bearings in the hub that carry the weight= 387,5/2=193.75 newton

to look it more close 193.75 then 193.75/56=3,45 ball must carry the whole load
as we know that is not the case in a roller bearing (there only 2)

and i have did not talk about the force generate by the road the accelaration of any weight due riding ofe a bump or in a hole



and for calc i took the best availble bearing wich has a good contact angle
(well this of course also create a larger roll ressistance)

a normal 6802 is even smaller in load in about 45 N

so if i lie its in commission of what the bearing guys give me on data
and my personal experiance (i too have build hubs with those smaller bearings so why should i lie about it)
the weight differance in a bearing who can have the load is only 1 gram





(nice is too see when i started in 1990 building wheels awith 15 mm axel the whole industry is about now building it)

[Jeremy]

Cees,

I don't think that you are lying. I think that your assumptions are flawed. Seeing that the experience of thousands and thousands of people, including professional racers, product designers and recreational riders, flatly contradicts your claim, it seems reasonable to assume that there is a flaw in your assumptions. I don't know where the flaw is; perhaps it is more appropriate to consider the dynamic capacity, instead of the static capacity. I mean, if you are right, then all of those DT 240 hubs out there should be failing, but they are not.

Jeremy

[weiwentg]

This build would be close:

Tune Mag160 28 hole rear
Tune Mig45 24 hole front
Velocity Escape tubular
Sapim CX-Ray spokes with alloy nipples
1256g (if the rims weigh 390g ea)

The Velocity Escape is a nice tubular rim. It is certainly strong enough to use as a 28 hole rear and 24 hole front for a 170# rider if built well. The Mig45 front hub is not a "really, really tiny hub" as posted earlier. It is designed for straight pull spokes. It is available up to 28 holes. It has a 15mm axle and uses a very nice ceramic bearing (#6802 15x24x5). For comparison, the AmClassic front hub has a 10mm axle and uses bearing #688 (8x16x5). The Mag160 has a 15mm carbon axle and also uses very nice ceramic bearings (#6902 15x28x7, #6802 15x24x5).

Cheers,

Jeremy

Jeremy, thanks for clarifying. curious, though, is the MIG45 available retail, and how much does it cost? I had seen somewhere that it wouldn't be available retail.

[ada@prorider.or]

Cees,

I don't think that you are lying. I think that your assumptions are flawed. Seeing that the experience of thousands and thousands of people, including professional racers, product designers and recreational riders, flatly contradicts your claim, it seems reasonable to assume that there is a flaw in your assumptions. I don't know where the flaw is; perhaps it is more appropriate to consider the dynamic capacity, instead of the static capacity. I mean, if you are right, then all of those DT 240 hubs out there should be failing, but they are not.

Jeremy

well i have the opposite reaction from pro riders
i do not know how many you know ,but the change a lot of bearings of those size

and becuase the bearing would damage they simply change bearings
and dynamic capacity is not the question here since that has nothing to do with the Emodule of the bearing.


perhaps you ca give ma a good calc where you explain why you sould use dynamic capacity here
and please a calc

(ps did they already find out in the church of sante Fe that in europa they use to make constructions with out any nail,since they find it a big attrection hence even a miracle)

[obtuse]

(ps did they already find out in the church of sante Fe that in europa they use to make constructions with out any nail,since they find it a big attrection hence even a miracle)[/QUOTE]


cees-
mary and i got married in that church and the fact that anyone would marry me is enough of a miracle.

(fyi when my old man (a mechanical engineer and pretty good carpenter to boot) first saw that staircase.....he said that was the stupidest miracle he'd ever seen and insisted on telling the tour guide exactly how the staircase was made and how he'd gladly build'em another one if they wanted....)

obtuse

[Jeremy]

Cees,

This is silly argument. As I said, I do not know, nor do I claim to know the flaw in your assumptions. But, as your statement is inconsistent with observed reality, it is logical to assume that there is a flaw. Forgive me if I trust reality more than your claim. All bearings can fail. In a bicycle hub the most common causes of failure are improper adjustment and contamination.

Jeremy

[sspielman]

(ps did they already find out in the church of sante Fe that in europa they use to make constructions with out any nail,since they find it a big attrection hence even a miracle)


cees-
mary and i got married in that church and the fact that anyone would marry me is enough of a miracle.

(fyi when my old man (a mechanical engineer and pretty good carpenter to boot) first saw that staircase.....he said that was the stupidest miracle he'd ever seen and insisted on telling the tour guide exactly how the staircase was made and how he'd gladly build'em another one if they wanted....)

obtuse[/QUOTE]



My whole belief system is now in tatters.....For all that I know, the Shroud of Turin may also be a fraud....

[ada@prorider.or]

cees-
mary and i got married in that church and the fact that anyone would marry me is enough of a miracle.

(fyi when my old man (a mechanical engineer and pretty good carpenter to boot) first saw that staircase.....he said that was the stupidest miracle he'd ever seen and insisted on telling the tour guide exactly how the staircase was made and how he'd gladly build'em another one if they wanted....)

obtuse

hey i did not know you married mary there


that was a good one from your dad

you must have had a awesome wedding in sante FE then
beatifull place
hence even been at jeremy shop.

[Archibald]

Cees,

This is silly argument. As I said, I do not know, nor do I claim to know the flaw in your assumptions. But, as your statement is inconsistent with observed reality, it is logical to assume that there is a flaw. Forgive me if I trust reality more than your claim. All bearings can fail. In a bicycle hub the most common causes of failure are improper adjustment and contamination.

Jeremy
I thinks Cees flaw is he's only looking at one-half the equation. Bearings are typically rated for X load at X bearing speed. Bicycles operate at the very, very low end of speeds therefore don't stress the bearings as much.

[Jeremy]

Jeremy, thanks for clarifying. curious, though, is the MIG45 available retail, and how much does it cost? I had seen somewhere that it wouldn't be available retail.

The Mig45 is available, but usually only as part of a complete wheel. The axle assembly needs to be removed in order to lace the wheel. The endcaps are pressed onto the axle, and bearing preload is adjusted by the use of very thin shims. It is definitely not a "general purpose" hub, as it is somewhat difficult to service and adjust. However, as part of the theoretical wheelbuild that started this post, it is a viable option.

Jeremy

[ada@prorider.or]

I thinks Cees flaw is he's only looking at one-half the equation. Bearings are typically rated for X load at X bearing speed. Bicycles operate at the very, very low end of speeds therefore don't stress the bearings as much.
??????????????????????????????????????????


well now you also gone say do not look at E modules of material
again dynamic load is not the issue here!!


chief HELP!

[Too Tall]

Uhhhh. Caveman here. Cees was stating an spec. from the mfg. so I don't really see what the prob. is??? Despite the spec. apparently some hubs I very much respect are working quite well for a whole bunch of people. Anywho. Cees, you are the math whizz in this crowd can you pls. compare / contrast the spec. of these bearings against Campy Record and Shimano DA?

[ada@prorider.or]

these bearings against Campy Record and Shimano DA?

well no becuase they have another size then the other

[Jeremy]

Uhhhh. Caveman here. Cees was stating an spec. from the mfg. so I don't really see what the prob. is??? Despite the spec. apparently some hubs I very much respect are working quite well for a whole bunch of people. Anywho. Cees, you are the math whizz in this crowd can you pls. compare / contrast the spec. of these bearings against Campy Record and Shimano DA?

TooTall,

The static capacity of the bearing that Cees stated is not in question. It is his claim that this static capacity is unnacceptable that I question. His claim is based on an assumption of how to interpret the static capacity rating of a given bearing. As you point out, many hubs deemed unacceptable by Cees are "working quite well for a whole bunch of people". This leads me to believe that there is a flaw in the underlying assumptions somewhere.

Jeremy

[ada@prorider.or]

TooTall,

The static capacity of the bearing that Cees stated is not in question. It is his claim that this static capacity is unnacceptable that I question. His claim is based on an assumption of how to interpret the static capacity rating of a given bearing. As you point out, many hubs deemed unacceptable by Cees are "working quite well for a whole bunch of people". This leads me to believe that there is a flaw in the underlying assumptions somewhere.

Jeremy


ho ho ho

i said that bearings with 24x5x5 as wheel bearing is not good for riders of 170 lbs
then the bearing will fail due to too high stress that the bearing is not contructed to hand this load case
that what i said


the bearing 15x24x7 would be good enough though
and
the bearing 15 x 24x 5 is good enough for a body not for the wheels (hub it selve)

[Archibald]

??????????????????????????????????????????


well now you also gone say do not look at E modules of material
again dynamic load is not the issue here!!


chief HELP!
Lost in translation.

But since you've used so many question marks, I feel obligated to respond. Relying on static load alone for bearing is to completely disregard Jeremy's point: that cyclist have spent many millions of hours riding bearings you feel are underated for their intended loads. While I have no problem with a more conservative choice, saying they're not up to the task have been proven, undeniably, wrong. Static load is just that. Unmoving. Pretty rare bicycles are loaded without actually moving. Track stands I guess. A bearing with a 50-pound static load rating can easily have a 150-pound dynamic load rating. If you exceed the static load you can reduce bearing life, but that's not really relevent to how they're being commonly used in bicycles. So yeah, if you spend a lot of time sitting on your bike and not going anywhere, you might want bearings with a higher static load rating.

[ada@prorider.or]

Lost in translation.

.

well it has no use i you do not understand the function of static load dynamic loads and e Modules of a bearing

i advise you to read carefully the handbooks of bearings and the way to construct a bearing for it aplication

i give you a tip if i would construct a bearing for a turbo i would look to dynamic load

but since the human is not turning around the bearing i stay at the emodules and static load calculation

[zap]

Thats what I was wondering. Static v dynamic load.

I know some automobiles siting on trains for a period of time can damage hub bearings. The slow back and forth rocking kills bearings that would normally last over 200,000km. There's a technical term for this condition but I've forgotten.

[Archibald]

Thats what I was wondering. Static v dynamic load.

I know some automobiles siting on trains for a period of time can damage hub bearings. The slow back and forth rocking kills bearings that would normally last over 200,000km. There's a technical term for this condition but I've forgotten.
It's called fretting. It's a vibration/erosion problem. Brinelling is what it's called if it's from impact.

[Grant McLean]

It's called fretting. It's a vibration/erosion problem. Brinelling is what it's called if it's from impact.

I'm always fretting that my posts are brinelling you readers!

g

[fiamme red]

Static load is just that. Unmoving. Pretty rare bicycles are loaded without actually moving. Track stands I guess. A bearing with a 50-pound static load rating can easily have a 150-pound dynamic load rating. If you exceed the static load you can reduce bearing life, but that's not really relevent to how they're being commonly used in bicycles. So yeah, if you spend a lot of time sitting on your bike and not going anywhere, you might want bearings with a higher static load rating.Maybe I should stop doing trackstands at every traffic light, if I'm wearing out the bearings faster.

[Archibald]

I'm always fretting that my posts are brinelling you readers!

g
I'm brinelling my forehead at the moment.

:banana:

[zap]

heck, I'm fretting that my ac front hub with tiny balls is going to go bust.

[ada@prorider.or]

and that for a simple bicyle wheel

[Kevan]

fretting and brinelling me at the same time. Honestly, I'm not so sure how long I can hold out!

[Grant McLean]

I'm brinelling my forehead at the moment.

:banana:


I heard that swinging the bars a few times before heading out
keeps everything lubricated. :)

g

[RPS]

http://www.amclassic.com/pdfs/WheelWeights.pdf

American Classic appears to make them for up to 180 lbs by using magnesium rather than aluminum rims. Not something I'd want to ride.

[jmewkill]

[QUOTE=Grant McLean]I heard that swinging the bars a few times before heading out
keeps everything lubricated. :)

only if the front hub is hidden by the handlebar.

bring on happy hour.

[RPS]

http://www.amclassic.com/pdfs/WheelWeights.pdf

American Classic appears to make them for up to 180 lbs by using magnesium rather than aluminum rims. Not something I'd want to ride.P.S. -- Note fine print at bottom of page: “Recommended rider weight limit (in pounds) will vary with road conditions, performance expectations and rider skill.”

A little subjective and impossible to quantify.