velonews report

[ada@prorider.or]

i just saw the movie on velonews on cyclingpeaks software

they said the doctor and they use the sofware also to detect doping use
they must be very naive

they say if some one produce suddenly 50 watt more then they use to do then it rings bells

if the pros does not know that for years
they have their ways to avoid this ,

and i heard also they they even can predict power now
well we did that already in 1993

they did let it sound they where very advanced ,well 14 years after us then

lets wait when they can predict cda online and airflow
how long that takes them



sorry guys could not resist saying that

[coylifut]

Cees. I know how you feel. In that late 80s I was sitting in a Portland restaurant with my then girl friend and her best friend who worked at Wieden and Kennedy. A martial arts friend of mine happened upon us and we got in a lengthy discussion about how he couldn't string together a full season of competing on the national circuit while I was. I said, "Just do it. Eliminate all the obstacles and get it done." He started stating his 1000 reasons why it couldn't be done and I just ket answering "just do it." Well wouldn't you know, a few weeks later I see "Just do it" billboards, bumber stickers, TV adds. I felt robbed. This intern at Wieden and Kennedy had shared my slogan with the brass and it became their break through add.

Cees, the guys like you and I - the real innovators, never get our due while idea stealing Ad-Men rise to the tops of their professions at our expense.

[Too Tall]

Cees, ride you bike ok? You are a nice guy.

[ada@prorider.or]

Cees, ride you bike ok? You are a nice guy.

not ok lots of snow and cold!

[ada@prorider.or]

[QUOTE=coylifu

Cees, the guys like you and I - the real innovators, never get our due while idea stealing Ad-Men rise to the tops of their professions at our expense.[/QUOTE]


well i do not feel robbed but cyclingpeaks say yeah we very innovative with this
yeah sure ,13 years later
that all that i want to say

by the way find what velonews with is doing very good
only wish they skip the dammed advertising on each video

[Too Tall]

Did not mean to rain on your thoughts Cees and admit this is part of what I do...I coaching and using SRM 5+ yrs. and just finished hosting a seminar on this. It is pretty daunting what we can do now without resorting to a sliderule ;) Also agree with you regards historical info.. I've got research papers dating back 10 yrs. + that give all the formulas to predict performance over time based on past training. Compared to the past it is almost like cheating! Here is a performance chart for a guy who just peaked and had a great 1/2 IM. (the yellow line near 1/15 represents a big rise in performance potential eg fresh and ready to race) PS - I AM NOT shillin' Just saying that athletes will have a WHOLE bunch of performance software / hardware coming their way now and it will be overwhelming AND Cees and I both can agree there is nothing new new new to see!!!

[manet]

graph

looks more like a phone conversation with A.L. or
rosie speak.

[asgelle]

they did let it sound they where very advanced ,well 14 years after us then
You've been selling power analysis software for 14 years? I had no idea. You really should get on your marketing department to do a better job of getting the word out.

[shinomaster]

Cees. I know how you feel. In that late 80s I was sitting in a Portland restaurant with my then girl friend and her best friend who worked at Wieden and Kennedy. A martial arts friend of mine happened upon us and we got in a lengthy discussion about how he couldn't string together a full season of competing on the national circuit while I was. I said, "Just do it. Eliminate all the obstacles and get it done." He started stating his 1000 reasons why it couldn't be done and I just ket answering "just do it." Well wouldn't you know, a few weeks later I see "Just do it" billboards, bumber stickers, TV adds. I felt robbed. This intern at Wieden and Kennedy had shared my slogan with the brass and it became their break through add.

Cees, the guys like you and I - the real innovators, never get our due while idea stealing Ad-Men rise to the tops of their professions at our expense.

Dude, my friend Whitney works for them, I'll get you your cut!

[coylifut]

Dude, my friend Whitney works for them, I'll get you your cut!

There's no doubt I'm due.

[swoop]

information is only valuable when it is applied correctly and in context. we're at a point in time when we can gather reams of info, we can make correlations and we justify our interpretations.... yet i don't know that the athlete with the most information wins the race.

i am not anti information.... and i'm happy about the trickle down to athletes at my level. i don't think there are many folks who really have a grasp on how to interpret the info and apply it in a useful way.
i just think we're in an era of "information neurosis".

i train with less info every year. i listen more to my body. i get older and still faster. i enjoy it more.
i am not a luddite. i learn how har dto push in training and how hard to rest. my religion is periodization. i ride a program.


there is a new industry... an information industry.... all the guys i know .. know all the info aboutthemselves in terms of cadence and wattage... but for most folks.. its just numbers to use to validate themselves. they aren't better bikers for it.
i generalize. information is good if you can live it, touch it, make sense of it, interact with it.... and put it in context. the data gathering has become easy. this other part.. i think there's only a handful of guys than do it.

i stopped reading the graphs and pie charts and just tried to put my legs up, get massages, have a life off the bike and get more naps. on the bike i used the srm to try and smooth out my pedaling.and that was it.

i admire the guys that can integrate the info. i like the democratization of fully realized training.... but i know sometimes we all get a bit mesmorized by colors and numbers.... and it just becomes another industry.

[ada@prorider.or]

You've been selling power analysis software for 14 years? I had no idea. You really should get on your marketing department to do a better job of getting the word out.


who talked about selling analysis software?

i did not

i only said we do this already since 1990

[A.L.Breguet]

looks more like a phone conversation with A.L. or
rosie speak.
Uh, can you hear me now?

[stevep]

information is only valuable when it is applied correctly and in context. we're at a point in time when we can gather reams of info, we can make correlations and we justify our interpretations.... yet i don't know that the athlete with the most information wins the race.

i am not anti information.... and i'm happy about the trickle down to athletes at my level. i don't think there are many folks who really have a grasp on how to interpret the info and apply it in a useful way.
i just think we're in an era of "information neurosis".

i train with less info every year. i listen more to my body. i get older and still faster. i enjoy it more.
i am not a luddite. i learn how har dto push in training and how hard to rest. my religion is periodization. i ride a program.


there is a new industry... an information industry.... all the guys i know .. know all the info aboutthemselves in terms of cadence and wattage... but for most folks.. its just numbers to use to validate themselves. they aren't better bikers for it.
i generalize. information is good if you can live it, touch it, make sense of it, interact with it.... and put it in context. the data gathering has become easy. this other part.. i think there's only a handful of guys than do it.

i stopped reading the graphs and pie charts and just tried to put my legs up, get massages, have a life off the bike and get more naps. on the bike i used the srm to try and smooth out my pedaling.and that was it.

i admire the guys that can integrate the info. i like the democratization of fully realized training.... but i know sometimes we all get a bit mesmorized by colors and numbers.... and it just becomes another industry.

swoop is 1/2 full of shiite. but not this half.
s

[nick0137]

I'm with Swoop. Got rid of all my 'puters and crap a few years ago. No time or patience for it. Use a HRM on the turbo but only cos I'm a lazy bugger and do nothing unless that damned readout screams "ONLY 170 YOU FAT BASTARD!". My favourite trick now is riding alongside some gizmo'd up rider and saying "So, what are we doing then? 135?" and them saying (having looked down, fiddled about) "Er, yeah."

[Frustration]

Sounds like there is a difference in the type and calibur of athlete here...

Some need it (info feedback) and can use it and maximize gain with it... Some have no use for it other than for forum chat.


The tools are more valuable the higher you get in the sport.



Cees is taking the info our of context (Not as huge a suprise, as the fact that he's not yet said that he invented "the" wheel and not just "a" wheel...


yet).






Taken in context:

When a team doctor has been monitoring an athlete's progress and knows his stuff and that athlete walks in with a V02 Max that is significantly higher than it should be for a given phase of training at a given time, A team Doc or trainer can be fairly certain that that athlete's increased performance is not a natural progression.

Not always a big enough gap (growth / increase), but when someone is putting up numbers significantly higher than reasonable in a very short time, Spotting it is easy for a team doc or trainer (which is part of the reason teams should be penalized for doping riders too...).

That doesn't apply to everyone (guys that have been doping before they met their doc and trainer and have always "peaked" well are tougher to nail down for instance), but it applies to some...



Too tall and other Qualified folks would have no trouble picking it out in ther athletes either (and no, that's not saying they have athletes doing it.)

[asgelle]

who talked about selling analysis software?

i did not

i only said we do this already since 1990
Do what? Write books and articles about the application of power data to training? Share algorithms for power analysis? Cite references to published articles which might help people design their own training programs? What? It's so easy to say "I did the same thing years, ago." But what evidence is there that you did anything, much less that what you were doing was the same as what is done now. I tell you what, to save you the trouble of typing, I'll just assume that every breakthrough related to cycling for the last 50 years was made by you, earlier and better.

[JohnS]

(Not as huge a suprise, as the fact that he's not yet said that he invented "the" wheel and not just "a" wheel...
yet).

C'mon, everybody knows that the dude in the GEICO commercial invented "the" wheel.

[A.L.Breguet]

.....When a team doctor has been monitoring an athlete's progress and knows his stuff and that athlete walks in with a V02 Max that is significantly higher than it should be for a given phase of training at a given time, A team Doc or trainer can be fairly certain that that athlete's increased performance is not a natural progression.

Not always a big enough gap (growth / increase), but when someone is putting up numbers significantly higher than reasonable in a very short time, Spotting it is easy for a team doc or trainer (which is part of the reason teams should be penalized for doping riders too...).

That doesn't apply to everyone (guys that have been doping before they met their doc and trainer and have always "peaked" well are tougher to nail down for instance), but it applies to some...



Too tall and other Qualified folks would have no trouble picking it out in ther athletes either (and no, that's not saying they have athletes doing it.)
I know little about doping, and care even less, but are there drugs that endurance athletes use that don't give immediate power enhancement, but aid recovery or fix other defficiencies? Would these enhancements be unnoticed in this sort of analysis?

[ada@prorider.or]

Do what?


for your info
developed software for power training
started in 1988 made in side the software predictions about the heart rate
and power out put
stated in magazine' s and news papers in europe
in 1992 to pro cyclist as well had our first world champion in 1995 with this software danny nelissen
but thats old news i guess you know that
after that speed skaters in holland but then that beyound and not of you interest i assume
and many world champions and cross as well olympic champs time trail as well world cup winners to name a few


and no you right we did not wrote any books and worte articals
others did that for us
like asker jeuken drup and many others
writing books and articals is not my trade
cees

[asgelle]

for your info
developed software for power training
started in 1988 made in side the software predictions about the heart rate
and power out put
Your original claim was that you did the same thing as cyclingpeaks 14 years ago. The trouble is cycling peaks does not and does not claim to predict heart rate. They do not and do not claim to predict power output. Therefore, it seems that your definition of doing the same thing is that you and they both developed software for power training. The trouble is that is so broad as to lose all meaning. SRM, Saris, and Cyclingpeaks all have software for power training, but anyone who's used them would never say they all do the same thing.

[ada@prorider.or]

They do not and do not claim to predict power output. .


i advise you to listen on what the telling on velonews
then you know what i am saying


here my quote
"and i heard also they they even can predict power now
well we did that already in 1993"

[asgelle]

here my quote
"and i heard also they they even can predict power now
well we did that already in 1993"
Yes, that's your quote. Unfortunately, nowhere in the VeloNews interview is that said. (you didn't really think I'd take your word for it without going back and re-listening to the interview did you?) Of course, you do understand the distinction between predicting performance (which was said) and predicting power, don't you?

[Too Tall]

A.L. - yup...that would fly under the radar.

My take on what the V.N. video was an implied ability to "red flag" an unexpected increase in watt / kg for a rider with historical data eg a derth of data showing continuous training over an extensive period (months and months). It is a compelling argument that needs more definition and clarity fer sher. After seeing thousands of power files I think that this can not be done with certainty. Cees has a point.

Maybe a misunderstanding here? Nobody said they can predict power...they did imply that they can "spot" suspect changes in power that otherwise would not arise thru normal racing / training....at least that's my .02.

Anywho. I've got the sniffles and if I don't get better soon my coach will kick my butt and that friends is the truth.

[ada@prorider.or]

[QUOTE=asgelle(you didn't really think I'd take your word for it without going back and re-listening to the interview did you?) Of course, you do understand the distinction between predicting performance (which was said) and predicting power, don't you?[/QUOTE]
\

yes you right

predicting the performance
thats what is said

i seen too many power files then to connect also performance with power
on the other hand i think you do not have any performance with no power

or increase or decrease of performance with out any increase or decrease of power

[asgelle]

\

yes you right

predicting the performance
thats what is said

i seen too many power files then to connect also performance with power
on the other hand i think you do not have any performance with no power

or increase or decrease of performance with out any increase or decrease of power
Which just goes to show why claims of doing the same thing as another party without supoprting data should be viewed with a tremendous amount of skepticism. Without a side-by-side comparison, it's impossible to know whether the one making the claim even understands what it is he's claiming to be identical to.

[ada@prorider.or]

, it's impossible to know whether the one making the claim even understands what it is he's claiming to be identical to.


well now i can trough lot of plots but guess has no use

[Too Tall]

This is a little off topic....a few days ago I got a series of files from my rowing mentor. He is an under the radar kinda guy who is able to row with some of the finest scullers in the world. Also one he!! of a CX rider :) From the moment I opened his PowerTap files I knew exactly who and what I was looking at....an athlete who was previously schooled in training using a structured program and no less an elite athlete.

I guess the VN video touched on a point that surprises me. We are at a point now where we are nearly able to do a "performance fingerprint" on athletes in a glance.

Hahaha, something really cool about this guy is that the first three files he sent me were the first three files he'd created :) No learning curve. Boom.