OT: Land Rover Defender 110

[dbnm]

Anyone driving the new one?

I am going to look at this today.

[dzxc]

No, I love the old ones though. Pricing and functionality seems to be comparable to the old LR series which I loved. At first glance not a huge fan of the new look, but I bet it would grow on me.

[crownjewelwl]

I think you have to hold out for the ineos grenadier...retains more of the ethos of the old defender

[cinema]

i priced them both a while ago and the full size discovery with turbo diesel is the best option imo

had a V8 LR4--favorite car i've ever owned. no problems whatsoever except it ate brake pads due to the weight of the vehicle. but sold it at 70k or so

[peanutgallery]

Land Rover, as someone around here once stated...Your first one is usually your last:)

Go forth with that knowledge

[saab2000]

I sat in one and have done some research. Looks desirable for me but I’m not doing anything at the moment because my current car is just 2 years old now and is paid for.

But color me intrigued by this.

I’ll look again in a year or two when initial bugs have been smoothed out. The utilitarian nature but modern touches have my full attention, as do the capabilities and towing limits. This will be a grocery getter for many but an extremely capable vehicle as well, like a Land Cruiser, which is also on my short list of really cool vehicles in this category.

[Tickdoc]

Land Rover, as someone around here once stated...Your first one is usually your last:)

Go forth with that knowledge

My sentiments exactly. Never again.

[R3awak3n]

Double post

[R3awak3n]

Hahaha. We had a land rover disco, terrible. Worst car I ever driven and whenever it started breaking down, oh boy did it break down... But at least was very cool looking. These new things are awful looking I am sorry.

Like a boat, best day is the day you buy it or the day you sell it. In my case It was my wifes before we even met and started dating and as far as selling it, I gave it away pretty much because it needed thousands of dollars of work done to it.

[Hilltopperny]

Land Rover, as someone around here once stated...Your first one is usually your last:)

Go forth with that knowledge

Same with me! Beautiful SUV, but worst electronic problems I have ever experienced in a vehicle. Nothing but endless expensive fixes that didn't last! Never again!

[likebikes]

just no.

keep your volvo

[Fishbike]

I know there were problems in the past. But I have a 2012 that has had zero issues at well over 100K miles. Just a data point.

[grateful]

My wife drives a 2011 Range Rover Sport, 120k, no issues other than brakes.

[merckxman]

Looks like a Ford Flex, except raised.

[dzxc]

Hahaha. We had a land rover disco, terrible. Worst car I ever driven and whenever it started breaking down, oh boy did it break down... But at least was very cool looking. These new things are awful looking I am sorry.

Like a boat, best day is the day you buy it or the day you sell it. In my case It was my wifes before we even met and started dating and as far as selling it, I gave it away pretty much because it needed thousands of dollars of work done to it.

I had two discos, never again. They were amazing while running though, really capable and lots of room. As soon as the second one started to turn, doing things like losing all pressure in the airbag suspension system, I sold it immediately with a disclaimer to the next owner.

Now I've been driving one of the new model Volvo XCs for the last 4-5 years and it's been a dream. Rock solid reliability, turbo, lots of room, don't get pulled over because it blends in so well (this is my hypothesis because I've flown by police officers at way too high speeds, whereas when I had a red sporty car I'd get pulled over constantly for almost nothing), etc. Will probably keep it forever. On the other side of the fence, I ordered a Tesla Cybertruck to complement the Volvo, so that's going to stand out in a fun way when I can finally take delivery.

[thirdgenbird]

I lost all interest in the defender when the Bronco finally dropped.

[Hilltopperny]

Looks like a Ford Flex, except raised.


They are owned by Ford. Ever since the acquisition the Land Rovers have taken on the same design.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[thirdgenbird]

They are owned by Ford. Ever since the acquisition the Land Rovers have taken on the same design.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ford sold them over a decade ago

[likebikes]

They are owned by Ford. Ever since the acquisition the Land Rovers

no they're not

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/26/business/worldbusiness/26cnd-auto.html

[cinema]

theyre an indian/chinese company now i think but the lr4 did have the ford 5.0 which is why it kicked ass

[Hilltopperny]

no they're not


My bad they sold them off back in 2008, but were picked up by Ford from BMW. They still have the look of a Ford IMHO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dbnm]

I went to look at the truck yesterday. Very nice. It is at the bottom of the line and the price was $53k.

Then I noticed at $10,000 surcharge. I asked and was told that it is a fee all Rover dealers are charging because people are buying these and immediately flipping them for $10-$15k more.

I told the sales guy to call me when they stop doing that.

Oh well.

[William]

I think you have to hold out for the ineos grenadier...retains more of the ethos of the old defender

Looks interesting. They don't mention pricing yet other than to say it will be "competitive". Competitive to what, a Ford Bronco or a Mercedes G-Wagon? I think I know the answer to that but hey, I would still like to know more.






W.

[huck*this]

I saw one today in town while on a ride. It didn’t do it for me. I thought it was an lr4. It just didn’t have that squared off I can conquer any off road challenge look that the defender was known for. It just looked like a Land Rover suv.

[pasadena]

totally agree, though I never had any interest in the Defender.

LR completely abandoned any authentic offroading premise. They are trading on the reputation now. They know their market.

Sad to see the Defender name like this but time marches on...

OTOH, brilliantly excited by the INEOS Grenadier. 100% what everyone wants but mainstream makers never produce.

To be fair, Jeep had kept the faith... and Bronco is really exciting too.

I lost all interest in the defender when the Bronco finally dropped.

[R3awak3n]

serious question...

I understand that people want a vehicle with 7 seats so I get cars like the volvo XC90, my buddy just got one and its real nice. He wants to transport his whole family and does not want a mini van. But why is the US so enamored with SUVs? I get trucks, they serve a purpose but what is up with these? Sure they are great off roaders but 99% of the people just drive em to the supermarket.

[dsimon]

I saw one in the Wild yesterday U G L Y man its Ugly

[thirdgenbird]

serious question...

I understand that people want a vehicle with 7 seats so I get cars like the volvo XC90, my buddy just got one and its real nice. He wants to transport his whole family and does not want a mini van. But why is the US so enamored with SUVs? I get trucks, they serve a purpose but what is up with these? Sure they are great off roaders but 99% of the people just drive em to the supermarket.

I think it’s the product of excess everywhere else that warrants it.

When we had our daughter, people said I would have to sell my GTI. we went on a 4 day weekend and had everything in the trunk. Pack and play, stroller, mirrorless camera kit, and clothes.

Some of the popular stroller here in the US won’t even fit in my trunk...

[pasadena]

SUV's, or more precisely, "crossovers" have usurped the family station wagon from decades past.
Practicality, higher ride position, and people gravitate to the style.
99% of the suv's for sale definitely are not good offroad. They are not intended for it, nor wanted.

The few true offroad suv's and trucks are specfic and retain high values.
The core market has needs and wants very different from the general public.
That is why a Jeep Wrangler scores horribly in drive comfort, dynamics and reliability yet retains very high resale value.

The very same question you pose can be asked about any vehicle. Why do people want a 500hp 2 seat sports car when they only go to the mall?

There is a variety. The mainstream has abandoned sedans and wants crossovers. It makes a lot of sense, and now that crossovers are so competitive, often you get more value from them without any penalty in mpg's.

Personally, I still love sedans and wagons but it's hard to argue against crossovers now that the market is flooded with good choices.

serious question...

I understand that people want a vehicle with 7 seats so I get cars like the volvo XC90, my buddy just got one and its real nice. He wants to transport his whole family and does not want a mini van. But why is the US so enamored with SUVs? I get trucks, they serve a purpose but what is up with these? Sure they are great off roaders but 99% of the people just drive em to the supermarket.

[thirdgenbird]

I know that I’m not the typical consumer, but I’ve never experienced a crossover that’s better than the sedan/hatch it’s based on. Many of them don’t even seem to have appreciably more ground clearance. They just have taller seat bases and higher roof lines.

[IJWS]

Ford sold them over a decade ago

Ford Sold them but they have not been able to let go of the LR design language. That said, Ford did a lot to make LR much more reliable than internet forums might claim so maybe emulating LR's design is Ford's prize for that effort! :banana:

I love my 2012 Range Rover. It is ridiculous what that thing can do on and off road. I would support that second look at the New Defender. Personally I would hold out for one of the two-door models that are being released this year but I understand needing four doors.

The Blue with White steel wheels is pretty cool.

[pasadena]

Yes, that's true.
The best examples are from BMW
Great sedans and wagons, then to suv's based on those platforms. All heavier, less efficent, worse dynamically and more expensive.
Their sedans have regressed.

But, that's the market.

I know that I’m not the typical consumer, but I’ve never experienced a crossover that’s better than the sedan/hatch it’s based on. Many of them don’t even seem to have appreciably more ground clearance. They just have taller seat bases and higher roof lines.

[Peter P.]

serious question...
...But why is the US so enamored with SUVs? I get trucks, they serve a purpose but what is up with these? Sure they are great off roaders but 99% of the people just drive em to the supermarket.

Read Keith Breasher's book, High and Mighty, The Dangerous Rise of the SUV and how they got that way, by Keith Breasher (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_and_Mighty_(book)).

Some reasons are; the aging population finds it easier to enter and exit vehicles with greater ground clearance than a typical sedan. I'm talking crossover vehicles here; true SUV's tend to be too high. The higher ride height of the vehicle makes the driver feel safer as they prefer to "look down" on other vehicles. In reality, they're not safer. Lastly, drivers tend to view SUV's as safer vehicles due to their perceived ruggedness and size, which are more false assumptions.

SUV's, or more precisely, "crossovers" have usurped the family station wagon from decades past.
Practicality, higher ride position, and people gravitate to the style.
99% of the suv's for sale definitely are not good offroad. They are not intended for it, nor wanted.

...The very same question you pose can be asked about any vehicle. Why do people want a 500hp 2 seat sports car when they only go to the mall?

There is a variety. The mainstream has abandoned sedans and wants crossovers. It makes a lot of sense, and now that crossovers are so competitive, often you get more value from them without any penalty in mpg's...

See above, and read Keith Breasher's book. Americans want it all, and they want it NOW.

[Johnnysmooth]

serious question...

I get trucks, they serve a purpose but what is up with these? Sure they are great off roaders but 99% of the people just drive em to the supermarket.

I’m not so sure about those trucks. Living in Boston area and I see loads of mostly guys driving trucks and it is clear they are not in the construction or farming trades, which frankly are the only reasons to own one.

The rest buy it for the “macho” look.

[R3awak3n]

SUV's, or more precisely, "crossovers" have usurped the family station wagon from decades past.
Practicality, higher ride position, and people gravitate to the style.
99% of the suv's for sale definitely are not good offroad. They are not intended for it, nor wanted.

The few true offroad suv's and trucks are specfic and retain high values.
The core market has needs and wants very different from the general public.
That is why a Jeep Wrangler scores horribly in drive comfort, dynamics and reliability yet retains very high resale value.

The very same question you pose can be asked about any vehicle. Why do people want a 500hp 2 seat sports car when they only go to the mall?

There is a variety. The mainstream has abandoned sedans and wants crossovers. It makes a lot of sense, and now that crossovers are so competitive, often you get more value from them without any penalty in mpg's.

Personally, I still love sedans and wagons but it's hard to argue against crossovers now that the market is flooded with good choices.


Everyone is different but when I drove wifes land rover to the mall, was a chore, no fun at all. Now on my 170hp manual wagon it is pretty fun. I can only imagine if it was in a 500hp 2 seater (has to also be manual), that would be something else :) But I guess people value different things, I am sure some people love their luxury SUVs but almost feels like a "want to be seen" in the range rover vs this is actually a good automobile.

[R3awak3n]

I’m not so sure about those trucks. Living in Boston area and I see loads of mostly guys driving trucks and it is clear they are not in the construction or farming trades, which frankly are the only reasons to own one.

The rest buy it for the “macho” look.

There are totally those people around here too, however I don't need a truck and will probably never buy one but there has been a bunch of times I do wish I had one. I just took a mattress to the dump and had to strap it to the top of my wagon, was a royal pain in the ass, with a truck that would have been cake. Also everytime we buy furniture from antique shop or flea market or when I had to do a few trips to get soil for my wifes vegetable garden... Trucks can be pretty utilitarian even for the people that are buying them for the macho look.

[bronk]

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2021-ineos-grenadier-first-look-land-rover-defender-style-off-road-suv/

[Blue Jays]

"...I understand that people want a vehicle with 7 seats so I get cars like the volvo XC90, my buddy just got one and its real nice. He wants to transport his whole family and does not want a minivan..."

The notion of a SUV with standard seating for seven people is mystifying to me. Are contemporary families really that big these days?
Were I a marketing executive at a vehicle manufacturer, my thought would be to make the vehicle with flexible configuration options.
Lots of seating for those with truly enormous families. More cargo room for those wishing to haul camping equipment (or whatever) and fewer people.

[saab2000]

The notion of a SUV with standard seating for seven people is mystifying to me. Are contemporary families really that big these days?
Were I a marketing executive at a vehicle manufacturer, my thought would be to make the vehicle with flexible configuration options.
Lots of seating for those with truly enormous families. Lots of cargo room for those looking to haul camping equipment (or whatever) and fewer people.

This vehicle can be ordered without a sunroof! Huge victory for those among us who dislike this “feature”!

[Blue Jays]

"...This vehicle can be ordered without a sunroof! Huge victory for those among us who dislike this 'feature!'..."

Good information to know, @saab2000! :-)

I briefly entertained the idea of a Range Rover Velar for a hot minute, yet it turned out to have very little utility for those of us into bicycles due to the sloping roof design. Also, one needed to get a fixed glass room or a motorized sunroof. No method to simply order a fixed metal roof.

Good to see you here faithfully keeping the "no sunroof" theme alive.
Hope you are also having success promoting that idea across-the-hall!

[Ozz]

Read Keith Breasher's book, High and Mighty, The Dangerous Rise of the SUV and how they got that way, by Keith Breasher (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_and_Mighty_(book)).
....

"Specifically, it notes that the SUV is the car of choice for many of the nation's most self-centered people; and the bigger the SUV, the less gracious its owner is likely to be."

Nothing like painting people with broad strokes.....oh brother.....:eek:

[dbnm]

Only the base model comes without a sunroof.

Oh, and none of these will come with a tow hitch because that factory shut down due to covid and has not reopened.

So I am back to looking at the BMW M2 Comp.

[R3awak3n]

Only the base model comes without a sunroof.

Oh, and none of these will come with a tow hitch because that factory shut down due to covid and has not reopened.

So I am back to looking at the BMW M2 Comp.

Lol

That makes no sense. Why would you ever consider one of these over a m2? I am looking m2 base or comp myself... not in the market yet but maybe soon-ish

[Kyle h]

I live defenders but the remake just looks like an over lander Kia Soul

[azrider]

The new Defender looks identical to old Jeep Patriots........or kia soul....blech

If I were in the market for a new truck/suv I would get the new Bronco......these things are Jeep killers for sure

https://www.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/5/2020/07/2022-Ford-Bronco-Raptor-no-red-rendering_MT-1.jpg

[ERK55]

I’m not so sure about those trucks. Living in Boston area and I see loads of mostly guys driving trucks and it is clear they are not in the construction or farming trades, which frankly are the only reasons to own one.

The rest buy it for the “macho” look.

You kidding?
This applies to >95% of Americans who drive “trucks” (formerly known as pickup trucks).

[martl]

Anyone driving the new one?

I am going to look at this today.

https://www.adac.de/_ext/itr/tests/ADAC40/Autodaten/Bilder/IM06077_1_Suzuki_Ignis_1566x884.jpg

[verticaldoug]

Go for a Overfinch version

https://stock.overfinch.com/used-cars/?COGModel=Defender



https://www.overfinch.com/models/the-new-overfinch-2/

[bathsalts]

Dbags drive Range Rovers. Just buy a Toyota.

[azrider]

Dbags drive Range Rovers. Just buy a Toyota.

Good grief 🤦🏼*♂️

[b33]

I had a Range Rover sport 2011 and just sold it at 100k miles.

I never had a problem. Ever.

[Morgul Bismark]

I saw a 2021 Defender today on the road in Palo Alto. Strangely I thought it looked better in photos than in person. From the back and rear 3/4 it seems to really narrow quite a bit above the beltline. For whatever reason, it just seemed to make the actual passenger compartment look a little tight from that angle.

That having been said, I'd be really hard pressed to choose the Defender over the new Bronco.

[R3awak3n]

Dbags drive Range Rovers. Just buy a Toyota.

I always say dbags drive audis and bmws and porsches and pretty much any nice car... But then you also have dbag kids that drive gtis and golf Rs and ford RS and STs. Oh lets not forget the dbags that drive corvettes and mustangs...

oh what about subaru wrxs? and teslas? oh my gawd. D BAGS


Anyone that drives a fast car, or fancy car, definitely exotics is a dbag to other people... or at least in reality there are dbags that drive all sorts of cars. I don't think anyone should not get a car because they are seen as dbag cars... Otherwise you be driving a toyota... which is the most boring car int he world, no thanks.

[pasadena]

Euro trash owners are dbags, tesla owners are dbags, fast n furious are dbags, bro trucks are dbags, muscle car owners are dbags,suv owners are dbags
cyclists dbags? or only when you're driving a dbag car?

Only non-dbag in the whole list are Toyota owners. But they're boring and boring is worse than being a dbag?
Or maybe they are boring dbags... which makes them... normal?

Dbaggery is so weird.

I always say dbags drive audis and bmws and porsches and pretty much any nice car... But then you also have dbag kids that drive gtis and golf Rs and ford RS and STs. Oh lets not forget the dbags that drive corvettes and mustangs...

oh what about subaru wrxs? and teslas? oh my gawd. D BAGS


Anyone that drives a fast car, or fancy car, definitely exotics is a dbag to other people... or at least in reality there are dbags that drive all sorts of cars. I don't think anyone should not get a car because they are seen as dbag cars... Otherwise you be driving a toyota... which is the most boring car int he world, no thanks.

[Blue Jays]

IB4TL! (again)

[gdw]

Merging topics and continuing our recent logic and stereotyping......folks from New Jersey driving Range Rovers while visiting Vermont are the ultimate d-bags.:banana:

[C40_guy]

Land Rover, as someone around here once stated...Your first one is usually your last:)


I had a '95 County LWB. Did a fair amount of offroading with it. It was not the *most* reliable vehicle I ever owned.

Then I had a '99 4.0. Really nice truck. Too nice to offroad, so it felt like I was driving around a tall Jaguar. Bought it as a dealer demo, sold it a year later. Lost exactly what my next car cost, a '95 Audi S6 avant.

Wouldn't go with another LR again, they've turned into very different vehicles. More recently had a Touareg TDi, which, thanks to dieselgate, we managed to trade up to a very nice Q7 TDi.

My next car will be a Cayenne, probably the e-hybrid. My buddy gets even better long term fuel economy with his (32ish) than we do with the Q7 (30).

Done with my offroading days...all my offroading is done on foot or on two wheels... :)

[dbnm]

For the record, I do want the rover and my initials are

D B

Oh well.

[C40_guy]

I always say dbags drive audis and bmws and porsches and pretty much any nice car...


So first I'm a dbag for driving LRs. Now I'm a dbag for driving Audis.

Can we just stop with this juvenile stuff?

Life's too short to be a dbag (speaking as someone who just got back from a week's unexpected stay in a hospital...)

[Blue Jays]

Not to mention long ago great poster DBRK who had terrific bicycles and cars. A very cool person!

[dbnm]

So happy I did not buy one of these.

watch this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkpB8okB-xw&ab_channel=TheFastLaneCar

[William]

So happy I did not buy one of these.

watch this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkpB8okB-xw&ab_channel=TheFastLaneCar

They probaly bought it because they had such good experiences wheeling their Discovery 2 and LR3. That new rig was throwing codes less than 48 hours after driving it off the lot and I think the dealer still hasn't figured it out.






W.

[peanutgallery]

Rover, first one is usually your last

146 miles? You can't make that stuff up, the Lord of Darkness is alive and well:) Pretty sad as the bar is pretty low in that segment, driven a jeep lately? I own 2, not great but not setting the world on fire. they run at least

Sad, as I love the design of the new discovery

[p nut]

Sad, as I love the design of the new discovery

Really? I can’t get used to them—too soccer mom-y. At least the LR3/4 was palatable. Then it went way downhill.

Defender is the same. I wanted to like it and didn’t mind the look online. But once I saw one driving down the street.....no, thanks.

The only SUV I can get excited about right now is the Bronco. But my next vehicle will be a PHEV, which means Wrangler 4xe would get my vote.

[peanutgallery]

They already built the new bronco...its called FJ cruiser:)

Really? I can’t get used to them—too soccer mom-y. At least the LR3/4 was palatable. Then it went way downhill.

Defender is the same. I wanted to like it and didn’t mind the look online. But once I saw one driving down the street.....no, thanks.

The only SUV I can get excited about right now is the Bronco. But my next vehicle will be a PHEV, which means Wrangler 4xe would get my vote.

[BobbyJones]

FWIW- I saw a Twisted Defender last week at rest area on the Turnpike.

I actually heard it before I saw it. Never heard of the company, looked it up and sighed. Very Singer-esque in business model and other item to add to the "when I win the lottery" list.

I'm starting to think that people are running out of things to spend money on, but that's the Defender you want.

[p nut]

They already built the new bronco...its called FJ cruiser:)

Oh, gross. :p The one with a false removable top? I almost bought one when they first came out. Seriously small interior (for its size) and the huge blind spot was a no-go for me.

[Hellgate]

Looks like a Smurf Mobile.

[William]

Rover, first one is usually your last

146 miles? You can't make that stuff up, the Lord of Darkness is alive and well:) Pretty sad as the bar is pretty low in that segment, driven a jeep lately? I own 2, not great but not setting the world on fire. they run at least

Sad, as I love the design of the new discovery

Those guys have fairly popular car, truck, and off-road toy channels on YT so I'm sure the dealer/LR is jumping through hoops trying to figure it out. I feel bad for the average John/Jane Doe trying to get a mess like that handled in a timely manner.






W.

[saab2000]

I've been a subscriber to their YouTube channel for a few years. I really like much of what they cover.

They bought this Defender with their own money and in pretty much the most basic trim possible. It's a really neat configuration.

J/LR would have let them replace the vehicle with an identical one but they wanted to get it going and on the road as soon as possible. I get that. They paid for it with their own money. It's not a press car.

The video series is a definite nightmare scenario for JLR and the comment that a regular buyer wouldn't get so much love is spot on.

I actually really like the Defender but this situation is off-putting, to say the least.

I'll be watching the situation with whatever they get as a replacement with real interest. I actually hope their original car gets resolved and they get it back the way they ordered it.

[robin3mj]

The notion of a SUV with standard seating for seven people is mystifying to me. Are contemporary families really that big these days?
Were I a marketing executive at a vehicle manufacturer, my thought would be to make the vehicle with flexible configuration options.
Lots of seating for those with truly enormous families. More cargo room for those wishing to haul camping equipment (or whatever) and fewer people.

Our twins arrived a few weeks after our eldest turned two. We had a Jetta wagon at the time and my wife was dead set against a minivan. After a winter with a Touareg which barely fit the three car seats across, went to a Sienna and haven’t looked back. Minivans are amazing.

We may swap the Jetta wagon for a Bronco next year just for ****s and giggles, as the kids are approaching the age that (non-COVID) we’re headed in different directions on weekends, and I would like to own one fun car in my lifetime.

A three row SUV sounds miserable if you have small kids, IMHO.

[dbnm]

I tried to buy a defender locally and the dealer wanted $10,000 over MSRP. I declined. I called Denver and Dallas and both dealers in those cities offered me at least $2000 of MSRP but I still declined.

I opted for something much different, the Acura RDX PMC edition. I am really happy I did. The Acura will arrive in January.

As yes, JLR must be freaking out. The comments are killing them.

[pasadena]

They already built the new bronco...its called FJ cruiser:)
Uh, no.

I've been a subscriber to their YouTube channel for a few years. I really like much of what they cover.

They bought this Defender with their own money and in pretty much the most basic trim possible. It's a really neat configuration.

J/LR would have let them replace the vehicle with an identical one but they wanted to get it going and on the road as soon as possible. I get that. They paid for it with their own money. It's not a press car.

The video series is a definite nightmare scenario for JLR and the comment that a regular buyer wouldn't get so much love is spot on.

I actually really like the Defender but this situation is off-putting, to say the least.

I'll be watching the situation with whatever they get as a replacement with real interest. I actually hope their original car gets resolved and they get it back the way they ordered it.
Defender 1- core engine fault, unrepairable.
solution: new engine (installed by?? the same yokles that messed up a simple winch install?)
or, a different Defender, or money back.

Defender 2 - irreplaceable engine harness cut by the dealer, installing a winch.

Defender 3 - now on order

All this tells me it's a overpriced, underbaked product right in line with the poor reliability that is the hallmark of the brand
and it's being sold by idiots that cannot perform a simple winch install.
That winch should have taken a couple hours to install, not days. And to cut anything like a wiring harness is utter incompetence.

Those guys have fairly popular car, truck, and off-road toy channels on YT so I'm sure the dealer/LR is jumping through hoops trying to figure it out. I feel bad for the average John/Jane Doe trying to get a mess like that handled in a timely manner.

W.

Exactly. If this was anyone without an audience, they would be stuck.
Look at all the Defender electronic issues with updates back in the UK. The Defender is underbaked.

Consumer Reports just got one. Can't wait to see how that goes....

The old LR's with the solid front axles are pretty decent to build up. I think even the LR3 is pretty good.
They aren't "reliable" but they do alright I believe.

[William]

...The old LR's with the solid front axles are pretty decent to build up. I think even the LR3 is pretty good.
They aren't "reliable" but they do alright I believe.

Those same guys picked up an old LR3 and wheeled it off-road a lot for over a year and the only issue they ever had was a stuck open original thermostat. Is it a fluke that this one held up with no real issues? Maybe, but doesn't the LR3&4 share parts from Fords? Maybe I'm mistaken but wasn't it running the same motor that came in the F150 and a number of other Fords of that time? I know there are eletronic gremlins that can plague them, but I've also read they are pretty solid and capable rigs...much more so then a lot of their LR siblings.








W.

[cinema]

lr4 even had the ford v6 and the v8 was 5.0 amazing rig. heard the early v8 had timing chain guide issues but they were ironed out later on and didnt happen until 80k + miles and you can hear when its time.

[saab2000]

and it's being sold by idiots that cannot perform a simple winch install.
That winch should have taken a couple hours to install, not days. And to cut anything like a wiring harness is utter incompetence.




This is spot on correct. Unfortunately, it’s hardly unique to this brand. I’ve experienced similar levels of ineptitude with a couple VW dealerships. I’m a longtime VW owner and often find the service people inept and insufferable. My last oil change was quoted at, literally, over $700. No joke. I’m not making up that figure. No exaggeration. They’re clueless as to the actual owners manual and recommended service intervals.

What’s the solution? Is any brand worth it anymore? Or just find a local garage?

[oldpotatoe]

This is spot on correct. Unfortunately, it’s hardly unique to this brand. I’ve experienced similar levels of ineptitude with a couple VW dealerships. I’m a longtime VW owner and often find the service people inept and insufferable. My last oil change was quoted at, literally, over $700. No joke. I’m not making up that figure. No exaggeration. They’re clueless as to the actual owners manual and recommended service intervals.

What’s the solution? Is any brand worth it anymore? Or just find a local garage?

In the republic, 7 or so car 'dealers', about 35 car repair places. As soon as my free service was up, I took my VW to my 'guy'..Indian Peaks. If you are a Saab, VW, Audi guy and in the people's republic, find these guys.

[oldpotatoe]

Maybe posted this already..interesting YouTube series about a couple who is overland cruising thruout the globe in their Defender.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdR26pcA0Tk

[pasadena]

They are great, but that's an old Defender ute. No relation to the vehicle in this thread.
In this vein, i'm looking forward to the INEOS wagon. That is the true successor to the Defender.

Maybe posted this already..interesting YouTube series about a couple who is overland cruising thruout the globe in their Defender.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdR26pcA0Tk

The LR Discovery 2 is the model I have heard good things about. I was on a long trip with a Discovery 2 and it did well. Some funky electrical bugs but nothing major.

Sad state of affairs when you look at Land Rover's current lineup.

[BobbyJones]

FWIW- I saw a Twisted Defender last week at rest area on the Turnpike.

I actually heard it before I saw it. Never heard of the company, looked it up and sighed. Very Singer-esque in business model and other item to add to the "when I win the lottery" list.

I'm starting to think that people are running out of things to spend money on, but that's the Defender you want.


https://www.twistedautomotive.com/assets/models/na-v8-model2.jpg

[William]

for sale -
1991 land rover range rover
tl;dr:
Headliner is not sagging.
It does not leak oil.
Suspension never was air bags, has always been springs.
It has the ‘original classic’ dashboard, not the new style ‘discovery’ dash assembly.
Suspension has been replaced with ome.
The original transfer case has been replaced with the discovery locking transfer case. It works as expected. And it’s awesome.
It does not leak oil.
There is no body rust to speak of. Not all panels are original (looks like the tailgate and the hood were replaced with actual used rover parts).
It has been repainted.
It has never been wrecked.
The engine is not original, and has less than 50,000 miles on it. 3.9l rover engine.
It does not leak oil.
The sunroof works and doesn’t leak.

Does the heater work? Yes.

Does the a/c work? No.

Do the power windows all work? Yes.

Does the dash clock work? Yes.

How about those power mirrors? They mostly work. They ‘move around’ but i wouldn’t call it working as expected. Maybe as designed, but not as expected.

Are the little tabs on the rear tailgate still in tact? Incredibly, yes, yes they are.
Do the puddle lights work? Yup. Classy af.

How about the un-obtainable interior fuse panel cover? Is it broken yet? Nope, and still has the decal on it.

How far can you drive it when the alternator belt breaks if you have a fully charged battery? About 79 miles with the headlights off.

What about girls? Warning - this truck will:
A) steal your girlfriend. B) steal your boyfriend. C) spend more time with your mechanic than with you. D) steal your money. E) you will not regret one second of it.

Some further light reading:
It does not have the terrible electrical system from the 1990’s. It has the less terrible electrical system from the late 1980’s.

Is this the most reliable car ever? Yes. According to top gear presenter jeremy clarkson - "the most unreliable car in the world is the most reliable car in the world." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/top_gear:_bolivia_special

Is the drivers side door handle snapped in half/has it broken completely off yet? No. It has been rebuilt using some triumph parts. Trust me, it’s unobtainable to get a replacement assembly. The paddle i sourced is identical to the rover paddle, and you can’t tell it’s not a rover part other than the fact it actually works and isn’t snapped in half yet.

Did you know aaa offers a platinum level membership? You should know that if you plan on owning a range rover classic. It’s just part of the deal.

This is one of the best examples of the greatest 4x4xfar. It has been modified with an old man emu lift, arb roof rack, arb winch bumper and warn winch. Has 2 spares, 2 jerry cans and i’ll throw in jumper cables, and a bin of miscellaneous stuff you’ll need when you’re waiting for the tow truck. I’m out of flares at this point for obvious reasons. You can just add them to your amazon pantry order. Search under “things i should buy regularly if i own a range rover classic”.

What recent repairs have been done?
Front cv joints. Front trans axle and a whole host of basic repair work. I have papers for most of it. Most of it has been done here in seattle by lamorna garage, seattle’s best land rover repair shop.

I’ve been asked why i’m selling the single best car i’ve ever owned. Well, i’ll tell you. I lost a bet. I told my wife it was more reliable than her fiat 500, so we decided to leave our house in seattle and drive to the olympic peninsula. I said “this will prove once and for all we don’t need to replace the rover. It’s the most reliable car in the world.” she left on friday morning. I loaded up the dog friday afternoon and set out of town. Me and the dog made it to tacoma, the front trans axle broke on i-5 at the tacoma dome. The front trans axle with almost 250,000 life long miles, mind you. This event caused a backup, and i was treated to a washington state patrol rolling slowdown on a friday night. After they pushed me to the side of i-5, aaa showed up and put the truck on the tilt bed. Because of covid, i couldn’t ride in the tow truck cab. So i was also treated to a parade route ride up i-5 to lamorna garage. I sat in the driver’s seat, on a tow truck in a range rover classic. It does not get more meta than this. I called my wife, and she simply asked: “have you bought the toyota yet”.

We don’t speak of the event any longer, but that was 6 months ago. I have successfully put off selling the range rover but have been subjected to extreme passive aggressive pseudo violence over those 6 months. Sometimes i just sit in the front seat and remember the good days we had turning heads.
The range rover classic isn’t a car, it’s a lifestyle. And my time with her is done.
Respectfully asking $10,000 obo. I will not accept trades, and i will probably cry when you pick it up. Don’t judge me.


:d



w.

[William]

Third time's a charm??? At least they acknowledge that your average John/Jane Doe wouldn't likely get the same treatment.

https://tflcar.com/2020/12/new-land-rover-defender-update-video/

Doh, another glitch???:eek::banana:







W.

[Tickdoc]

Third time's a charm??? At least they acknowledge that your average John/Jane Doe wouldn't likely get the same treatment.

https://tflcar.com/2020/12/new-land-rover-defender-update-video/

Doh, another glitch???:eek::banana:







W.

This has been the best thing to watch on youtube. Love TFL. Demuro has one too. I haven't checked if he has any reliability issues yet or not?

[William]

This has been the best thing to watch on youtube. Love TFL. Demuro has one too. I haven't checked if he has any reliability issues yet or not?

Agreed. I also like their cheap build segments.






W.

[mtechnica]

:d



w.

awesome!

[572cv]

:d



w.

That is so perfect, especially after having read this with my morning coffee:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-land-rovers-new-defender-suv-more-trouble-than-its-worth-11607004799?mod=searchresults_pos1&page=1
;)

[William]

Looking at LR's always reminds me of the bit in "Balls of Fury" where Randy Daytona is trying to decide if he wants company for the evening...but applied to "should I buy an old Land Rover?"...


Hmm, should I buy an old Land Rover? Weeelllll.....Naaaaaaw.....Hmmmmmm....Nooo.......M AYbeeee.......weeeell-noOoOoO....







W.

[fkslksj]

Looks like a Ford Flex, except raised.

I can never unsee this.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

[William]

Defender vs Landcruiser vs Armada (Patrol).

Third Defender in under 500 miles...throwing codes like Santa throwing candy at the Macy's Christmas parade!!!:banana:


https://tflcar.com/2020/12/iconic-off-road-suvs-snow-test-video/






W.

[saab2000]

Defender vs Landcruiser vs Armada (Patrol).

Third Defender in under 500 miles...throwing codes like Santa throwing candy at the Macy's Christmas parade!!!:banana:


https://tflcar.com/2020/12/iconic-off-road-suvs-snow-test-video/






W.

I am not in any position to think about getting one at the moment, but it’s a vehicle that I like, despite the potential for disaster.

Question for those who may know: is this a JLR engine? Or is it a BMW engine? I seem to have some recollection that they source this power plant from BMW.

The number of fault codes is inexcusable in any vehicle in 2020, let alone a nominally premium car like a Defender. I watch TFL videos and these guys have been very patient but I can tell it’s wearing thin.

I like the design, size, materials, etc. The amount of customization possibly on the order sheet is excellent. In a year or so maybe I’ll be able to think about this and by then I hope the bugs are sorted out.

[William]

I am not in any position to think about getting one at the moment, but it’s a vehicle that I like, despite the potential for disaster.

Question for those who may know: is this a JLR engine? Or is it a BMW engine? I seem to have some recollection that they source this power plant from BMW.

The number of fault codes is inexcusable in any vehicle in 2020, let alone a nominally premium car like a Defender. I watch TFL videos and these guys have been very patient but I can tell it’s wearing thin.

I like the design, size, materials, etc. The amount of customization possibly on the order sheet is excellent. In a year or so maybe I’ll be able to think about this and by then I hope the bugs are sorted out.


I've been an LC guy for a long time but I've always liked the style and capability of the Land Rover/Range Rover vehicles. I've pondered buying one many times but when it came down to it the unreliability/pain in the arse factor always ultimately stopped me from doing it. My LC's have always been rock solid reliable and folks I know with LR's always seemed to be dealing with issues.

That said the new LC's being in the 90G range is a tough pill to swallow as well. But, you get a pretty solid chance of having zero issues with it. Pretty clear the LR's still have issues.







W.

[saab2000]

I've been an LC guy for a long time but I've always liked the style and capability of the Land Rover/Range Rover vehicles. I've pondered buying one many times but when it came down to it the unreliability/pain in the arse factor always ultimately stopped me from doing it. My LC's have always been rock solid reliable and folks I know with LR's always seemed to be dealing with issues.

That said the new LC's being in the 90G range is a tough pill to swallow as well. But, you get a pretty solid chance of having zero issues with it. Pretty clear the LR's still have issues.







W.

I’d love a Land Cruiser. They’re rated for 17 MPG on the highway and most reviews I’ve seen report 13-14 in daily use.

I hope there’s a next gen version and I hope they are able to achieve significant improvements in fuel economy. They’re the leaders in hybrid technology so I’m sure it’ll be possible.

[William]

I’d love a Land Cruiser. They’re rated for 17 MPG on the highway and most reviews I’ve seen report 13-14 in daily use.

I hope there’s a next gen version and I hope they are able to achieve significant improvements in fuel economy. They’re the leaders in hybrid technology so I’m sure it’ll be possible.


I can agree, but man that 5.7 just runs and runs often trouble free...3-4-500,000 miles plus.




W.

[JasonF]

I can agree, but man that 5.7 just runs and runs often trouble free...3-4-500,000 miles plus.


Yup, our friend's '02 LC just turned over 350k miles - not.one.problem.ever and it's parked outside in the Northeast most of the time.

Our first GX (not the same motor but similar architecture) had 130k completely trouble-free miles and we sold it for a diesel truck to pull a horse trailer....never bought the horse trailer and the Merc diesel had mixed reliability.

[pasadena]

Park yourself under a 200 series Land Cruiser and the Defender.
The Defender is a warmed over Discovery. The design focus has nothing to do with durability, strength or reliability.

All the money went into the drivetrain, motor and build quality of the Toyota.
The Land Cruiser can be field repaired for the most common things. But the build quality and engineering is all for durability and maximum strength.
It's the strongest production Land Cruiser they have ever made.
Look at the size of the diffs compared to the Defender, or any other suv short of a 1 ton truck.

Is the Land Cruiser worth $40K more than a Defender?
It's worth at least that, and more.

Depreciation alone will make the Defender worth less than a used 4Runner in 5 years.

[bthornt]

I’d love a Land Cruiser. They’re rated for 17 MPG on the highway and most reviews I’ve seen report 13-14 in daily use.

I hope there’s a next gen version and I hope they are able to achieve significant improvements in fuel economy. They’re the leaders in hybrid technology so I’m sure it’ll be possible.

According to Car and Driver, the Land Cruiser is history.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35057036/toyota-land-cruiser-dead-2022/

[William]

Yup, our friend's '02 LC just turned over 350k miles - not.one.problem.ever and it's parked outside in the Northeast most of the time.

Our first GX (not the same motor but similar architecture) had 130k completely trouble-free miles and we sold it for a diesel truck to pull a horse trailer....never bought the horse trailer and the Merc diesel had mixed reliability.

Toyota heard about and bought back two different Tundras with this engine that had over one million miles each. They tore them down to study them and learn what they could. Basically they found wear they would expect from an engine with only 100,000 miles on it.







W.

[saab2000]

According to Car and Driver, the Land Cruiser is history.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35057036/toyota-land-cruiser-dead-2022/

In its current form it will be done. That said, I also think it will be back and I hope it's back with Toyota values and not a $150,000 price tag, at least not with the Toyota badge.

The Land Cruiser or variants of it are sold worldwide and have been for decades.

I'd love a current Heritage Edition because it can be gotten without the rear seat, and because it looks nice with no running boards. But I don't have a spare $90k sitting around burning a hole in my pocket. The fuel economy isn't the deal breaker but it sure makes me think hard about it. That's mad painful fuel consumption.

Also, that roof basket would be off mine immediately.

https://www.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2019/10/2020-Toyota-Land-Cruiser-200-Heritage-Black-14.jpg?fit=around%7C875:492