De Rosa goes custom...

[catulle]

Ok, so this might be old news for all of you but I just noticed that De Rosa is offering their top end models either stock or custom. Nice. I guess others will follow suit.

[1centaur]

I noticed that too. That means I could get Nag geometry on a DeRosa - think Ernesto would mind?

[Lanternrouge]

You can also get any Guerciotti with custom geometry as long as you don't mind waiting a couple weeks. Not quite blingy like a DeRosa, but still Italian.

[Climb01742]

has anyone here owned/ridden a derosa recently? like a king? derosa has, sadly, sorta faded from top-of-mind awareness. when lusted-for bikes are mentioned, never seem to hear derosa.

[atmo]

atmo here -
i don't think the term custom translates the same way
in the italian frame industry as it does when used loosely
stateside. iow, i doubt that these companies would change
their basic tenets of frame design and concede to a blueprint
that they believed might be a compromise atmo. from what
i recall from my many trips over there, the term su misura
is used often but it doesn't mean they'll make frames with
geos that don't represent the company's line.

[davids]

has anyone here owned/ridden a derosa recently? like a king? derosa has, sadly, sorta faded from top-of-mind awareness. when lusted-for bikes are mentioned, never seem to hear derosa.
I recall Grant getting a beautiful black and red DeRosa not too long ago...

yep. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=216590&postcount=1)

[obtuse]

atmo here -
i don't think the term custom translates the same way
in the italian frame industry as it does when used loosely
stateside. iow, i doubt that these companies would change
their basic tenets of frame design and concede to a blueprint
that they believed might be a compromise atmo. from what
i recall from my many trips over there, the term su misura
is used often but it doesn't mean they'll make frames with
geos that don't represent the company's line.


what atmo said...

obtuse

[AgilisMerlin]

I recall Grant getting a beautiful black and red DeRosa not too long ago...

yep. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=216590&postcount=1)


Oooooh La La = http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=12960&stc=1



AmerliN

Custom in Italy would buy a Custom in the USA, no ?

[shinomaster]

what atmo said...

obtuse

But isn't that how it should be though? Why would I want a Seven or an IF designed by some Fred at a lbs?

[atmo]

But isn't that how it should be though? Why would I want a Seven or a Serotta designed by some Fred at a lbs?
potm atmo.

[Big Dan]

potm atmo.

+1

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[Serotta_Andrew]

FYI.... Serotta designs Serotta!!!!

[atmo]

The models with the red label (on the website, I mean) are now offered in full custom geo is my understanding. I think they offer the cross, pista and a ti frame in only custom geo, iirc.
does all this imply that there's a white sheet approach to the
build and that anything submitted can be fabricated atmo?

[shinomaster]

FYI.... Serotta designs Serotta!!!!

Sorry to be confused... See I changed my post!

xxoo

me

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[atmo]

I think exacty how much su misura depends very much on exactly chi sei.... :banana:

i believe the charts imply that the frames were
made to order, rather than custom made as in
the sense the westerners use the term atmo.

[sspielman]

atmo here -
i don't think the term custom translates the same way
in the italian frame industry as it does when used loosely
stateside. iow, i doubt that these companies would change
their basic tenets of frame design and concede to a blueprint
that they believed might be a compromise atmo. from what
i recall from my many trips over there, the term su misura
is used often but it doesn't mean they'll make frames with
geos that don't represent the company's line.

I have heard that when some Fred arrived at the DeRosa shop asking for something all whacked out, Mr. DeRosa was not above sending them over to Colnago....Bravo, Ugo!

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[sspielman]

But isn't that how it should be though? Why would I want a Seven or an IF designed by some Fred at a lbs?

That is the only way that I can explain some of the things that I have seen.....

[atmo]

But I'm sure one can walk into the De Rosa factory, get fitted, and have a fully custom frame, yes.

i would be astonished if that were the case.
and we might veer into the literal definition
of custom if this continues atmo.



I am Italian. What do you mean by "made to order" versus "custom made"?
You do not think the geometry and tubing selection are "custom" on those frames?
made to order means that the order preceded the build,
but it was designed by the maker, and that is not what
most westerners think of as custom made atmo.

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[Grant McLean]

Oooooh La La = http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=12960&stc=1



AmerliN

Custom in Italy would buy a Custom in the USA, no ?


Hey, that's a good lookin' bike!

I believe a "custom" DeRosa means you can get a non-stock top tube or
seat tube length. If you need a 54 seat tube with a 57 top tube, your
frame is made to measure. I don't think DeRosa is going to build you
something to facilitate wacky contact points.

g

[pdxmech13]

they would never, never, never build that.

[stevep]

the 7 above was a custom built for grant, a decimal here or there...whats the difference.
it was supposed to be a copy of his derosa

[merckx]

A couple of years ago, I inquired about having a custom Colnago Master Extralight built. You see, I like the nose of my Regal exactly 10.8 cms behind the BB and a stock 62 c-t Colnago with a 73 deg. STA doesn't cut it. I didn't tell them what angles I wanted or what tube lengths should be used, just setback, reach to bars (62.5 cms) and bar drop (9cms). Cambiago got back to me with the message that Mr. Colnago doesn't build touring frames! I'm not kidding this time. In the end, I don't know what I was thinking. There are so many GREAT builders right here in our back yard.

[atmo]

su ordinazione = made to order
su misura = made to measure

I do not know what most westerners think "custom made" means.
well here is my take -
since time immemorial, i have sensed that norte americanos
think that on a custom frame, all work stops, and the maker
gives 110% of his attention to every spec, and quirk, and
color chip, and riding style that the virtual client submits.
my experience in italy dating back to visits in the 70s is that
builders there don't do that. to be concise, if you go to a
signor ellioini, he'll look at you, mebbe write down a few
measurements, mebbe record a contact point list, and then
determine if you're a 58, a 60, or a 62, assuming his frames
are offered in 2cm splits. then, after a wait, when he does
the run of sizes from which he's concluded you'd fit, he then
earmarks one of them for you. iow, he has predestined specs
that he (signor ellioini) deems correct in order to keep the
line consistant and pure.
if you or someone thinks that you can go to these cats and
supply a blueprint that they will execute against a deposit,
my money is on that they'd do it 1) if it mimiced what they
already are doing, and/or 2) it still would not be exactly to
the mm according to your build sheet - but it would concur
with theirs atmo.

[AgilisMerlin]

Can someone please tell me the seatube length on this frame............... :crap:

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/7195/big7xm2.jpg

i will not be able to sleep tonight not knowing............i am full of angst over the magnitude of that frame and steerer tube.



amerliN

[Grant McLean]

the 7 above was a custom built for grant, a decimal here or there...whats the difference.
it was supposed to be a copy of his derosa

no shiite, but my guy at 7 was named Fred !!

When my frame arrived, the tag with the specs all signed off by the
builders said the head tube was 12cm. I measured it, and it was 10cm.
Ooops. Lets try that again. Frame number two is nice, but it's a noodle.

g

[merckx]

well here is my take -
since time immemorial, i have sensed that norte americanos
think that on a custom frame, all work stops, and the maker
gives 110% of his attention to every spec, and quirk, and
color chip, and riding style that the virtual client submits.
my experience in italy dating back to visits in the 70s is that
builders there don't do that. to be concise, if you go to a
signor ellioini, he'll look at you, mebbe write down a few
measurements, mebbe record a contact point list, and then
determine if you're a 58, a 60, or a 62, assuming his frames
are offered in 2cm splits. then, after a wait, when he does
the run of sizes from which he's concluded you'd fit, he then
earmarks one of them for you. iow, he has predestined specs
that he (signor ellioini) deems correct in order to keep the
line consistant and pure.
if you or someone thinks that you can go to these cats and
supply a blueprint that they will execute against a deposit,
my money is on that they'd do it 1) if it mimiced what they
already are doing, and/or 2) it still would not be exactly to
the mm according to your build sheet - but it would concur
with theirs atmo.

This jives with my story above about Colnago.

[fffastfreddie]

has anyone here owned/ridden a derosa recently? like a king? derosa has, sadly, sorta faded from top-of-mind awareness. when lusted-for bikes are mentioned, never seem to hear derosa.

I'm currently riding a King x-light. Very plush ride - almost too plush also front end is a little like uncooked penne but does the job well nevertheless.

As far as awareness is concerned I agree they do seem to have slipped perhaps its because they are not thought of as envelope pushers in carbon tech, that and the fact they produced that gimmick tango frame hasn't helped either

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[pdxmech13]

I would only ride fussili yo !

[shinomaster]

well here is my take -
since time immemorial, i have sensed that norte americanos
think that on a custom frame, all work stops, and the maker
gives 110% of his attention to every spec, and quirk, and
color chip, and riding style that the virtual client submits.
my experience in italy dating back to visits in the 70s is that
builders there don't do that. to be concise, if you go to a
signor ellioini, he'll look at you, mebbe write down a few
measurements, mebbe record a contact point list, and then
determine if you're a 58, a 60, or a 62, assuming his frames
are offered in 2cm splits. then, after a wait, when he does
the run of sizes from which he's concluded you'd fit, he then
earmarks one of them for you. iow, he has predestined specs
that he (signor ellioini) deems correct in order to keep the
line consistant and pure.
if you or someone thinks that you can go to these cats and
supply a blueprint that they will execute against a deposit,
my money is on that they'd do it 1) if it mimiced what they
already are doing, and/or 2) it still would not be exactly to
the mm according to your build sheet - but it would concur
with theirs atmo.

How did they do custom pro bikes back in the time of steel, and ti bikes, in say the 90's. I know a lot of guys were riding really long, low bikes. Now they just put long stems on their stock monocock carbon frames.

[atmo]

How did they do custom pro bikes back in the time of steel, and ti bikes, in say the 90's. I know a lot of guys were riding really long, low bikes. Now they just put long stems on their stock monocock carbon frames.
see above atmo...

[shinomaster]

see above atmo...

Ok but every Italian stock frame has a short top tube. Were Cipo and Tony Rominger racing on regular geometry? As you know, I know nothing about frame design, so I wonder when does a frame stop being a colnago or Bianchi? When it gets too long?
I know Pantani was a nut about a 1/2 a millimeter.

[Grant McLean]

Ok but every Italian stock frame has a short top tube. Were Cipo and Tony Rominger racing on regular geometry? As you know, I know nothing about frame design, so I wonder when does a frame stop being a colnago or Bianchi? When it gets too long?
I know Pantani was a nut about a 1/2 a millimeter.

Lots of pros had/have "custom" geometry. But what this usually means
is changing the top tube length.

g

[AgilisMerlin]

i think Pantani was just a plain nutter myself :D



AmerliN

[pdxmech13]

Shino

look to what is old and then ule see

[shinomaster]

Shino

look to what is old and then ule see


Old? Like the pyramids?
Ok...all I know is that some stock bikes like Colnagos for instance dont fit certain kinds of bodies and positions. If a guy has really long thighs or a really long reach he will need a really different design than a regular stock frame with a step set angle and short top tube. If the company changes those things it's still a Colnago but...different.
I just wonder how much imput a racer had back then.

[atmo]

Lots of pros had/have "custom" geometry. But what this usually means
is changing the top tube length.

g
i think that is the underlying point here...
accomodating contact point quirks are one thing, and if the rider is
good enough or/and the team is well-oiled enough, the frames will
get a tweak. but that tweak doesn't make them custom in the sense
that most consumers use the word; the racer's frames will get a spec
tweak, but the design of the bicycle will be true to the bicycle maker's
vision-slash-mission statement atmo.

[obtuse]

colnago, de rosa, pinarello and most other italian framebuilders will build made to measure frames. all the client supplies is his own body. none of these guys will let the client determine anything beyond the model and the color. when working through a distributor, these guys will generally build a frame around a desired geometry as long as it makes sense. in general you can take the stock geometries and make them sit lower or higher but they aren't going to let you mess with the balance or overall design of the bike.

the long and short of it is that unfortunatly none of the builders in question will build a faster backwards!!!!! bike....

obtuse

[Peter P.]

Geez; atmo's opinion about how the Italians would "really" build your supposedly "custom" frame sure does open my eyes. He's sorta speculating about it, but he's got some basis due to his trips to Italy.

I can't offer anything either way, but considering the language gap, English-Italian, I wouldn't dare buy a DeRosa custom frame because I'm not sure they would understand that I wanted it "my way" right down to the angles, nor would I understand when they tried to tell me they don't do my idea of custom. And I sure as hell wouldn't trust the US distributor (whoever they are); they're just looking to make a sale.

You know, there are several U.S. builders doing custom carbon where you're sure to get the specs you want, Crumpton, Steelman, Parlee, and Calfee to name a few.

[obtuse]

Old? Like the pyramids?
Ok...all I know is that some stock bikes like Colnagos for instance dont fit certain kinds of bodies and positions. If a guy has really long thighs or a really long reach he will need a really different design than a regular stock frame with a step set angle and short top tube. If the company changes those things it's still a Colnago but...different.
I just wonder how much imput a racer had back then.


by the time you get the seat in the same place on a colnago their geometry isn't really any different from anyone elses in terms of establishing contact points. if a stock bike from any builder who knows what they're doing fits you, a colnago will fit you too; you might need a different stem or a slight tweak on where the saddle sits on the rails...but there really isn't that much variation in frame design among those who know how to properly design frames.

obtuse

[obtuse]

Geez; atmo's opinion about how the Italians would "really" build your supposedly "custom" frame sure does open my eyes. He's sorta speculating about it, but he's got some basis due to his trips to Italy.

I can't offer anything either way, but considering the language gap, English-Italian, I wouldn't dare buy a DeRosa custom frame because I'm not sure they would understand that I wanted it "my way" right down to the angles, nor would I understand when they tried to tell me they don't do my idea of custom. And I sure as hell wouldn't trust the US distributor (whoever they are); they're just looking to make a sale.

You know, there are several U.S. builders doing custom carbon where you're sure to get the specs you want, Crumpton, Steelman, Parlee, and Calfee to name a few.


any builder that'll build "what you want" has absolutely no right to be considered a true frame builder. if you think you know more about frame geometry than your framebuilder, you best find another frame builder or open shop yourself.

obtuse

[obtuse]

FYI.... Serotta designs Serotta!!!!


and that's why serotta gets it.

obtuse

[manet]

Hey, that's a good lookin' bike!

g

your blackberry alarm turned on full i see



something to facilitate wacky contact points.

g

bored with the wedge are we

[Grant McLean]

I wouldn't dare buy a DeRosa custom frame because I'm not sure they would understand that I wanted it "my way" right down to the angles, nor would I understand when they tried to tell me they don't do my idea of custom.


Why on earth would you want a DeRosa "your way"?
I bought a couple of DeRosa's because I believe that
having it "Ugo's way" is the whole point.

I don't go to a great restaurant, and tell the chef how
to cook. If the food there sucks, eat somewhere else.

g

[atmo]

Geez; atmo's opinion about how the Italians would "really" build your supposedly "custom" frame sure does open my eyes. He's sorta speculating about it, but he's got some basis due to his trips to Italy.
it's not speculation; it's first hand knowledge from about 7 trips there atmo.

I can't offer anything either way, but considering the language gap, English-Italian, I wouldn't dare buy a DeRosa custom frame because I'm not sure they would understand that I wanted it "my way" right down to the angles, nor would I understand when they tried to tell me they don't do my idea of custom. And I sure as hell wouldn't trust the US distributor (whoever they are); they're just looking to make a sale.
that's okay, peter. the issue here is twofold: the client's assumption
wrt what role those guys exist to fill, and the client's true understanding
of the total layout of bicycle design when you start spec-ing stuff. it's
all connected, and more often that not, if you go mental sending over
design elements, the resultant measurements will be all over the county.

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[tbushnel]

I don't go to a great restaurant, and tell the chef how
to cook. If the food there sucks, eat somewhere else.

g

Now that's language I can understand :) :beer:
TEd.

[Jack Brunk]

Hey Peter,

Serotta does pretty nice custom carbon work too. This is usally based on professional imput.


Jack

[coylifut]

Serotta does pretty nice custom carbon work too. This is usally based on professional imput.

Jack what do you mean by professional input?

I can't offer anything either way, but considering the language gap, English-Italian, I wouldn't dare buy a DeRosa custom frame because I'm not sure they would understand that I wanted it "my way" right down to the angles, nor would I understand when they tried to tell me they don't do my idea of custom. And I sure as hell wouldn't trust the US distributor (whoever they are); they're just looking to make a sale.

You know, there are several U.S. builders doing custom carbon where you're sure to get the specs you want, Crumpton, Steelman, Parlee, and Calfee to name a few.

This where my wheels come spinning off he cart. If I was Crumpton, Steelman, Parlee...why would I let the customer "have it there way right down to the angles?" ATMO, bicyles are one of those products where the less input the customer has, the higher the probability he'll be satisfied with the end result.

[Lanternrouge]

Jack what do you mean by professional input?

ATMO, bicyles are one of those products where the less input the customer has, the higher the probability he'll be satisfied with the end result.

I think this is right to a point as far as it concerns angles, tube lengths, etc. The customer's input is vital with regard to how he or she wants the bike to ride and what is comfortable as far as fit. After that point, then the less input as far as design is concerned, the better. Basically, the customer tells the builder what the destination is in terms of handling and what's comfortable, then it's up to the builder to decide how to get there. At that point, the customer would sort of become a backseat driver.

[coylifut]

I think this is right to a point as far as it concerns angles, tube lengths, etc. The customer's input is vital with regard to how he or she wants the bike to ride and what is comfortable as far as fit. After that point, then the less input as far as design is concerned, the better. Basically, the customer tells the builder what the destination is in terms of handling and what's comfortable, then it's up to the builder to decide how to get there. At that point, the customer would sort of become a backseat driver.

I RESPECTFULLY disagree here as well. I think builders get themselves in a whole lot of trouble by promising subtle nuances and a "tuned" ride. Race bikes are race bikes to me. Good ones carve nice turns, hold the tight inside line and are relatively comfortable. Designing a bike to take on one of those attributes over another just serves to throw the whole thing out of balance.

[Climb01742]

i'm just supposin' here but i'd guess the kind of info a lot of builders would find useful is...i plan to race crits with this bike...or doing centuries is my thing...or i would like to ride for 4 or 5 hours over crappy roads and not feel beat to a pulp. beyond that (and maybe contact points/body measurements to make sure the HT is long or short enough, for example) i'm not sure i'd tell a builder anything else. but that's just my take.

[1centaur]

Ah the eternal battle (and I'm not talking about the Middle East).

On one hand, obtuse says most race bikes have very similar attributes. On another, he thinks it's appalling that a framebuilder would accept a customer's measurements. Which leaves the question: whether the STA changes from 73 degrees to 72.5 degree or the TT changes from 56.5 to 72.2, does it matter whether the idea comes from rocket scientist framebuilders or experienced riders? On the other hand, if you just tell a builder how you like to ride, he will give you different measurements and angles based on how HE perceives the world. Go to five different well-known and respected framebuilders and give them the same data, and you might get bikes with 5 different measurements. If one subscribes to the orthodoxy here, all would be equally worshipped as designed thoughtfully, yet if a single measurement was changed by the customer, the framebuilder is not worthy of the title.

The logic is lacking. Within the confines of typical tube lengths and angles, customer preferences based on experience are as legitimate as any other number tweaks and more legitimate than most. I expect a framebuilder to tell me if any numbers I give are stupid. In the case of Derosa, I would rather have a longer TT because that gap between 56.5 and 58 is really long and I'm in the middle - the 56.3 TT Colnago with a longer stem did not quite do me as well as my 57.2 customs. I'd also be interested in the HT angle that does not show on the geometry charts. Derosa also gives you any of their paint jobs as an option. That's all I'd be looking for. On their ISPs, it appears some buyers need custom and their dealers are suggesting it. That's fine too.

Tri-altir is the new Derosa distributor in the US, BTW.

[catulle]

any builder that'll build "what you want" has absolutely no right to be considered a true frame builder. if you think you know more about frame geometry than your framebuilder, you best find another frame builder or open shop yourself.

obtuse

I couldn't agree more. So, within this framework, I'd guess a custom De Rosa is custom enough for me, innit?

I think that in this discussion we are reflecting the paradox of the global world. Now days jet travel, TV, Internet and so on make the world seem small and everything appears within reach. However, when push comes to shove we realize that we've been looking at a mirage. In reality, ordering a custom De Rosa from Spokane seems more difficult than ordering a custom Moots because there exists a very real language, cultural, and geographic barrier.

I have a good friend from here, from the boonies, whose ancestors are Italian, from Matera, and he travels every year to Italy for a month to ride and race. He spends time in the north of Italy somewhere, very close to the Pinarello factory. He's told me that at the Pinarello factory they have small retail outlet that is run by the daughter (or one of the daughters) of Mr. Pinarello himself (whomever he is). He's bought several frames from that one shop and each time they've offered to set the frame up to his size and style of riding. He says that the only reason he buys Pinarello is because of this relationship he has with the factory's retail store.

In other words, proximity has made it very easy for my friend to order exactly what he needs from the Pinarello factory. I bought a Colnago C-40 for which I asked if it could be painted differently from any of the available color schemes, and that I was willing to wait. I thought that those flashy Colnago schemes were unbecoming for an old geezer such as myself. Well, the frame was painted exactly as I ordered it and I really didn't have to wait that long. Of course, a paint job is very different than having a custom frame built but what I'm trying to say is that when there is a will, there is a way. That is, I think that it'd be great if the traditional bicycle houses such as De Rosa, Colnago, Bianchi and so on would offer an accomodation for the sizing of some of their frames.

I better cut it short or no one will read this. I mean, if we get into the discussion of "custom" and "fitting", we'll never end.

[sspielman]

A few years ago, I decided that I needed a Cyfac. At that time, there were no standard geometry Cyfacs...everything was built to measure. What they did with me was to take my body measurements and then compare them to my current bike measurements. They thought that everything was in order so then proceeded. I asked to have the same contact point relationships, and they agreed. My instructions for the ride of the bike was to "make it ride just like the bikes you make for the pro teams". I was informed that was the way they liked to do business. A few months later, my frame arrived with a geometry somewhat tweaked ....but the end result was superb. The owner of that company (Francis Quillon) has professional racers and teams coming to him from all over the world to get bikes...Part of what I am paying for is that experience...I am not going to presume to know more than he does and tell him how to do his business...

[Hysbrian]

I'd guess a custom De Rosa is custom enough for me, innit?


I would guess that stock is enough for almost everyone. It's just do to poor sales assa. that most bikes get poorly set up.

ps i'm late in this thread atom

[saab2000]

I used to think that I needed true custom bikes and had a few built. I may do it again, but as others have noted, I will no longer try to influence the design. I will tell the builder what I want in terms of ride and handling and let them run the rest.

My current favorite rides are all stock, off-the-shelf bike designs and I am happier with them than I was with the customs where I tried to create the numbers myself.

Still, I am intrigued by a bike like Petacchi's or Cipollini's where the top tube is clearly much longer than a stock bike would be. But maybe there is not much real difference in design. Rather the seat tube is simply shorter than it normally would be. Does that make sense? Their bikes seem shorter (in height) but not longer than normal in length.

Anyway.....

[atmo]

sticky atmo -
Part of what I am paying for is that experience...
I am not going to presume to know more than
he does and tell him how to do his business...

[Fat Robert]

I used to think that I needed true custom bikes and had a few built. I may do it again, but as others have noted, I will no longer try to influence the design. I will tell the builder what I want in terms of ride and handling and let them run the rest.

My current favorite rides are all stock, off-the-shelf bike designs and I am happier with them than I was with the customs where I tried to create the numbers myself.

Still, I am intrigued by a bike like Petacchi's or Cipollini's where the top tube is clearly much longer than a stock bike would be. But maybe there is not much real difference in design. Rather the seat tube is simply shorter than it normally would be. Does that make sense? Their bikes seem shorter (in height) but not longer than normal in length.

Anyway.....

yup.

if you give a frame designer more than contact points, you're kidding yourself. the only exception would be if you have something that you really love, that was designed properly, and you're having a different iteration of it made. i gave kirk pacenti's geo to paul sadoff, because it works -- and paul will make a different flavor (lugged, steel fork). I didn't come up with some half-baked numbers and demand a frame....

ale-jet and cipo's bikes (and some other cats in the peloton, if you look) are the product of -6 and -8 stems. Threadless lowered the front ends of some race bikes, not because of the difference in HS stack, but the difference in rise when compared to a traditional -17 stem. For example, if I wanted to be really wacky, I could have some dude make me a 55x57 bike, for me to use a -6 stem, that would put my bars in the exact same place as they are on my 57x57 with a -17 stem.

zabel's position, for example, isn't any different than when he was riding a lugged merckx with a quill stem...but using the current cinelli stuff to put the bars in the same spot where they were with a threaded HS and -17 stem makes for a slightly different solution....

[merckx]

by the time you get the seat in the same place on a colnago their geometry isn't really any different from anyone elses in terms of establishing contact points. if a stock bike from any builder who knows what they're doing fits you, a colnago will fit you too; you might need a different stem or a slight tweak on where the saddle sits on the rails...but there really isn't that much variation in frame design among those who know how to properly design frames.

obtuse

I don't agree with this. I have a Merckx MXL with a 72 sta and a 130 stem. I have my position optimized on this machine. Sure, I can set up a Colnago (with a 73 sta) with the same setback, saddle ht., reach etc., but I would end up with a stub for a stem on the Colnago. On these two machines, the seat tube, head tube and top tube are identicle lengths. It is just the sta that differs. You would laugh at me if I had a stub, wouldn't you. Right, so in my case, the stock colnago doesn't work.

[coylifut]

I don't agree with this. I have a Merckx MXL with a 72 sta and a 130 stem. I have my position optimized on this machine. Sure, I can set up a Colnago (with a 73 sta) with the same setback, saddle ht., reach etc., but I would end up with a stub for a stem on the Colnago. On these two machines, the seat tube, head tube and top tube are identicle lengths. It is just the sta that differs. You would laugh at me if I had a stub, wouldn't you. Right, so in my case, the stock colnago doesn't work.

wouldn't you just pick a Colnago with about a 1 cm shorter tt and add a spacer to get the same position? I have a Merckx with a 72.5 and 57 tt and a Spectrum with a 73.5 and 56.5 tt. The saddle rails sit on the post in a different position to achieve the same setback, but the effective reach is whithin 2 mm.

[obtuse]

Ah the eternal battle (and I'm not talking about the Middle East).

On one hand, obtuse says most race bikes have very similar attributes. On another, he thinks it's appalling that a framebuilder would accept a customer's measurements. Which leaves the question: whether the STA changes from 73 degrees to 72.5 degree or the TT changes from 56.5 to 72.2, does it matter whether the idea comes from rocket scientist framebuilders or experienced riders? On the other hand, if you just tell a builder how you like to ride, he will give you different measurements and angles based on how HE perceives the world. Go to five different well-known and respected framebuilders and give them the same data, and you might get bikes with 5 different measurements. If one subscribes to the orthodoxy here, all would be equally worshipped as designed thoughtfully, yet if a single measurement was changed by the customer, the framebuilder is not worthy of the title.

The logic is lacking. Within the confines of typical tube lengths and angles, customer preferences based on experience are as legitimate as any other number tweaks and more legitimate than most. I expect a framebuilder to tell me if any numbers I give are stupid. In the case of Derosa, I would rather have a longer TT because that gap between 56.5 and 58 is really long and I'm in the middle - the 56.3 TT Colnago with a longer stem did not quite do me as well as my 57.2 customs. I'd also be interested in the HT angle that does not show on the geometry charts. Derosa also gives you any of their paint jobs as an option. That's all I'd be looking for. On their ISPs, it appears some buyers need custom and their dealers are suggesting it. That's fine too.

Tri-altir is the new Derosa distributor in the US, BTW.

1centaur-
a builder like derosa would accept your measurements because they make sense and fall between what they offer in stock geometries. perhaps i was being to bold in my pronouncements, but in general these framebuilders will not build bikes they know will not work. there are many iterations of properly designed bikes and tweaking a toptube length or a setback meausurement to get the desired reach and the desired weight balance is par for the course with a builder like derosa. they're not going to make a bike with a 30cm headtube and a 54cm toptube though, nor are they going to produce a bicycle that doesn't ride like it ought to.

an example- bigger derosa historically have steeper headangles in an attempt to tuck the wheel back and keep the wheelbase and front center in the right place.....colnago does not do this to the same extent....its a difference in philosophy although i have seejn custom examples of the latter with de rosa style front ends although i've never seen a derosa in a larger size built like a colnago.

obtuse

[obtuse]

yup.

if you give a frame designer more than contact points, you're kidding yourself. the only exception would be if you have something that you really love, that was designed properly, and you're having a different iteration of it made. i gave kirk pacenti's geo to paul sadoff, because it works -- and paul will make a different flavor (lugged, steel fork). I didn't come up with some half-baked numbers and demand a frame....

ale-jet and cipo's bikes (and some other cats in the peloton, if you look) are the product of -6 and -8 stems. Threadless lowered the front ends of some race bikes, not because of the difference in HS stack, but the difference in rise when compared to a traditional -17 stem. For example, if I wanted to be really wacky, I could have some dude make me a 55x57 bike, for me to use a -6 stem and 5mm of spacer, that would put my bars in the exact same place as they are with a -17 stem and 5mm of spacer.


i have a giordana size 60cm center to center that fits exactly the same as my 56cm seat tubed home made carbon bike. one uses a 140mm quill stem the other uses a 140mm ahead stem. both use no spacers.

obtuse

[michael white]

I love this discussion; it's pretty philosophical, getting to the heart of what is a "custom." I imagine framebuilders must feel a bit like Freudian shrinks, listening to their clients, but interpreting what they say in ways the client wouldn't themselves imagine.

My Colnago, like I assume most of them, has a really shallow ht which gives the bike a very different ride from anything else I recall riding, on the verge of floppy at times but it really comes into its own when I'm up to speed. I get a kick out of it, it brings me some joy. That geometry is the whole bike: what else is it? the clover cutout in the head lug? Getting that feel over the range of sizes is the brand, and I think the geometry ought to be the last thing the builder would change.

I'm also familiar with the issues of not wanting a funny stem, which I often have anyway, or the sense that my torso is on the long side so I need something different. . . If I get a backache, it must be the seat angle, it's the damn builder.

I've always suspected, though, that framebuilders who offer whatever the customer wants aren't very far-sighted, are trying too hard to make the first sale. They shouldn't be too easy. I guess what I would really want, when I order a frame, is a listener, but also a filter--which is the interchange with a builder who communicates the sense of having been here before many times with these exact questions, and here are the answers.

best,
mw

[Fat Robert]

i have a giordana size 60cm center to center that fits exactly the same as my 56cm seat tubed home made carbon bike. one uses a 140mm quill stem the other uses a 140mm ahead stem. both use no spacers.

obtuse

and your stem on the home-nugget -- -8 or so? that would give you about 2cm of rise over that 140mm, compared to a -17....

are you telling me I'm right or telling me I'm full of it? I may be both....

how is your homebrew doing, anyway?

[Fat Robert]

I've always suspected, though, that framebuilders who offer whatever the customer wants aren't very far-sighted, are trying too hard to make the first sale. They shouldn't be too easy. I guess what I would really want, when I order a frame, is a listener, but also a filter--which is the interchange with a builder who communicates the sense of having been here before many times with these exact questions, and here are the answers.

best,
mw

framebuilder quiz part I: multiple choice

framebuilders who build anything that a customer asks them to are

1) hard up for cash

2) stupid

3) unconcerned about the reputation of bikes with their name on them

4) 1 and 3 only

5) all of the above

[catulle]

I've come to the conclusion, ehem, that this discussion of fit and custom is not an issue at all for those who ride enough to have a very clear idea about what are his/hers contact points. Period. Finito. Figure out what your contact points are and a competent builder will know what to do. ATMO.

[catulle]

framebuilders who build anything that a customer asks them to are

1) hard up for cash

2) stupid

3) unconcerned about the reputation of bikes with their name on them

4) 1 and 3 only

5) all of the above

5

[Fat Robert]

framebuilder quiz, part II: essay.

A customer wishes you to build a "light, fast, stiff, and comfortable" frame, with a 70.27 seat angle, a 75.73 head angle, a 60.124 cm top tube, and a 67.873 cm seat tube, a 68.4 mm bb drop, cantilever brake mounts, fender mounts, and aerobars. Discuss your response to this customer, and how your response fits within the context of your build and brand philosophy. 500 words or less.

[atmo]

500 words or less.
http://www.marrder.com/htw/pictures/s9-8-30d.jpg

[coylifut]

Sword Story
by Frank Jaubert (From a parable told by Grandmaster Kim Soo)

The prince of the land needed a new sword, and at first the decision seemed easy...

The finest sword maker in the entire world lived in his kingdom.

A old man, widely known and liked, a grand master of arms, a consummate sword maker who was also deeply revered for his wisdom and broad spiritual roots.

All agreed that his exact workmanship and pure spirit shaped each sword to an almost mystical perfection. Many believed that he endowed each of his swords with some of his personal spiritual energy.

"The sword has the soul of its maker," they remind each other.

But the Prince had heard talk of the old masters' apprentice. It was said that he made a very fine sword, perhaps as good as his master.

Others would even say that the young sword maker had surpassed his master, that his swords were far better.

"He's as good as his master," they speculated, "maybe better."

But the apprentice also had a reputation for being reckless, disrespectful, quick to anger and fight.

"He is a troublemaker," they would whisper among themselves.

So, although his swords were coveted, few would call him friend.

The Prince, unable to decide which sword might be superior, ordered one of each.

After all, he was the Prince and could have anything he wanted, and he what he wanted was the finest sword in the land.

"Make your finest sword for me," he told them both, "A sword like no other."

He would discover for himself which was the best.

The summer passed...

On the appointed day both swords were delivered to palace.

"Sir, forgive the interruption, but you wanted to know immediately," the servant said, "The swords, they are here."

"Bring them to the garden," said the Prince, "I will be down shortly. See that I'm not disturbed."

Two bundles tied in oilcloth, to be slowly, carefully unwrapped. After such a long wait, one did not hurry.

The swords were beautifully made, weight and balance were perfect, the details of workmanship exact.

There could be no doubt; both the master and the apprentice were skilled craftsmen.

For a moment the Prince reflected on how fourtinate he was to have the two best sword makers in all the lands within his realm.

But, which sword was best?

A small breeze blew through the castle garden. Fall leaves drifted gently on the wind.

The Prince held the sword from the apprentice in the air - the falling leaves but touched the blade and were split in two.

This was a sword of incredible sharpness; could the old masters' sword be any better?

He held the blade in the air…

And the leaves avoided it.

[catulle]

.

[Fat Robert]

Mr. Sachs:

I am taking four letter grades off for your use of "atmo," and for your reluctance to follow the assignment and use words. I am also awarding you 1000 extra credit points for the insight and ingenuity of your response, and moving you to the head of the class. Apperception is percpetion, indeed.


Dr. Doofus




(please send your tuition check for 3,500 promptly to yourself, with the memo "Kendrick frame paid in full." Thank you.)

[atmo]

Mr. Sachs:

I am taking four letter grades off for your use of "atmo," and for your reluctance to follow the assignment and use words. I am also awarding you 1000 extra credit points for the insight and ingenuity of your response, and moving you to the head of the class. Apperception is percpetion, indeed.


Dr. Doofus




(please send your tuition check for 3,500 promptly to yourself, with the memo "Kendrick frame paid in full." Thank you.)

just go win a fukingc race and make us all happy atmo...

[Grant McLean]

Find a framebuilder the same size as you, go ride his personal bike.

If you like it, order one. (or two) :)


g

[catulle]

Find a framebuilder the same size as you, go ride his personal bike.

If you like it, order one. (or two) :)


g

Been there, don't that... :(

[gt6267a]

Find a framebuilder the same size as you, go ride his personal bike.

If you like it, order one. (or two) :)


g

so, what size is atmo?

[stevep]

framebuilder quiz, part II: essay.

A customer wishes you to build a "light, fast, stiff, and comfortable" frame, with a 70.27 seat angle, a 75.73 head angle, a 60.124 cm top tube, and a 67.873 cm seat tube, a 68.4 mm bb drop, cantilever brake mounts, fender mounts, and aerobars. Discuss your response to this customer, and how your response fits within the context of your build and brand philosophy. 500 words or less.

if you went to ugo derosa with this request he would give you colnagos phone number and throw you out.
it would a no word conversation

[Grant McLean]

so, what size is atmo?

a giant among men

http://flickr.com/photos/fotoblitzcolor/142320984/

g

[stevep]

to get an idea of atmos size...look at the custom 7 earlier in the thread.
that is his race bike.

hes no shrimp... like riding a 54 or something.
hes a giant

[obtuse]

and your stem on the home-nugget -- -8 or so? that would give you about 2cm of rise over that 140mm, compared to a -17....

are you telling me I'm right or telling me I'm full of it? I may be both....

how is your homebrew doing, anyway?

accounted for in headtube length. they're the same.

obtuse

[atmo]

blah blah blah yada yada etc
this bud's for you atmo -
http://www.vivalapooch.com/images/Leash_400.jpg

[manet]

to get an idea of atmos size...look at the custom 7 earlier in the thread.
that is his race bike.

hes no shrimp... like riding a 54 or something.
hes a giant

the love d'spencer is a full size poodle.

[merckx]

wouldn't you just pick a Colnago with about a 1 cm shorter tt and add a spacer to get the same position? I have a Merckx with a 72.5 and 57 tt and a Spectrum with a 73.5 and 56.5 tt. The saddle rails sit on the post in a different position to achieve the same setback, but the effective reach is whithin 2 mm.

A Colnago with a 1cm shorter tt would put me on a 59-60 cm, and yes, you could add a stack of headset spacers to get it to work. But then you have a big ,6'3'' geek riding a circus bike with the weight distribution all helter skelter. What's the point of that? You can get anything to work as I stated in my first post, but what is the point of riding an $8,000.00 circus bike?

[taz-t]

But then you have a big ,6'3'' geek riding a circus bike with the weight distribution all helter skelter. What's the point of that? You can get anything to work as I stated in my first post, but what is the point of riding an $8,000.00 circus bike?

Clowns need bikes too...

[1centaur]

To summarize:

1) Builders who would build a circus bike are losers.

2) Nobody on the Serotta forum would ask for a circus bike.

3) Thus I can say anybody who asks for a circus bike is a loser and get no heartfelt objections.

We all generally agree, except:

4) Derosa might hassle me if I don't like a steep HT angle because their idea of front center disagrees with the one embodied and enjoyed greatly on my four customs. Might be fun to ask for a Nag HT angle to the tenth of a degree just to get a reaction.

[coylifut]

A Colnago with a 1cm shorter tt would put me on a 59-60 cm, and yes, you could add a stack of headset spacers to get it to work. But then you have a big ,6'3'' geek riding a circus bike with the weight distribution all helter skelter. What's the point of that? You can get anything to work as I stated in my first post, but what is the point of riding an $8,000.00 circus bike?

you wouldn't look like a circus geek, you'd look like Boonen.

[obtuse]

you wouldn't look like a circus geek, you'd look like Boonen.


i'm as big as you and i ride a 60cm colnago and i don't look like a circus geek....at least since they banned those types of circus' sometime in the late seventies.

obtuse

[obtuse]

To summarize:

1) Builders who would build a circus bike are losers.

2) Nobody on the Serotta forum would ask for a circus bike.

3) Thus I can say anybody who asks for a circus bike is a loser and get no heartfelt objections.

We all generally agree, except:

4) Derosa might hassle me if I don't like a steep HT angle because their idea of front center disagrees with the one embodied and enjoyed greatly on my four customs. Might be fun to ask for a Nag HT angle to the tenth of a degree just to get a reaction.

can we use the politically correct term? it's not a circus bike; it's a

FASTERBACKWARDS!!!!!!!

bike

[merckx]

Clowns need bikes too...

Did you get that picture from my wife!

[davids]

Clowns need bikes too...
Are those some bowling pins in your basket, or are you just glad to see me?

[Grant McLean]

FASTERBACKWARDS!!!!!!!



http://www.rocketboom.com/vlog/archives/2007/02/rb_07_feb_09.html

cool video

g

[stevep]

i'm as big as you and i ride a 60cm colnago and i don't look like a circus geek.... obtuse

just cause you cant juggle when you ride does not mean that you do not look like a clown.
the floppy shoes are a giveaway.
affectionately,
s

the derosa unicycle you ride has too steep a seat angle... you look right over the bb to me.