Disk Wheel

[gibbo]

Thinking of getting a disk wheel for track racing. It would be great to have the capacity to also use on a TT rig. It will need to be tubular. I would like to hear thoughts, I have been looking at used Zipp, or a new Farsports. What are the advantages for the high end stuff like lightweight autobahn, or Mavic Comete?
Thanks in advance.


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[rockdude]

Thinking of getting a disk wheel for track racing. It would be great to have the capacity to also use on a TT rig. It will need to be tubular. I would like to hear thoughts, I have been looking at used Zipp, or a new Farsports. What are the advantages for the high end stuff like lightweight autobahn, or Mavic Comete?
Thanks in advance.


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From a performance standpoint aka, Cda and Crr, there is little difference. Likely get some advantage in Crr from a wider rim bed. Rear disk wheels are pretty similar and many times the difference that are found have more to do with the wheel interaction with the particular frame being used than the wheel itself. If you are interested in potentially gaining 1-2 extra watts, sometimes the Mavic, walker bro. and campy work well in certain track frames. Bottom line, its more important to match the right tire to the right wheels.

[Look585]

Not many track disks are convertible to road. Zipp Super 9 is probably the easiest. Zipp 900 also easy to change, but finding the track axle is tough as they are long out of production. If you find a 900 with the track axle already fitted, the cassette conversion should be easy to find. I might have one floating around...

Others like, Mavic, Shimano/Pro, Campy, Araya, FFWD, etc are not convertible.

The “aeroness” differences are likely marginal gains and frame dependent as indicated above.

[bikinchris]

I had a Mavic Comete disc that was convertible between track and road, but those were freewheel days.
You can probably find a used track disc from an older track racer cheap if you're patient.

[carpediemracing]

Pre pandemic I had plans on doing track seriously this year, and one of the things I wanted to get was a rear disk wheel.

My philosophy is to get something once, not to buy it over and over. So I wanted to get some optimal wheels, mainly for outdoor use. I figure if I need a front disk wheel I can source one, but I was most concerned about the rear. I have loads of aero front wheels that I can use a screw-on skewer to "convert" to track use.

Matching tire to rim is critical. Many wheels are set up for 19mm or 21mm tires.

Lenticular are a bit faster in anything but indoors. Apparently they're better for rear wheels, where there's mixed up air hitting it. Corima, Campy, Mavic.

Flat might be marginally faster indoors, at least for a front wheel since it's hitting clean air. For the rear apparently it's not ideal, the air doesn't stick well and so it peels off the surface. Zipp are all flat.

However, most Zipps are set up for road and the track conversion kits are super expensive, adding maybe 50% to the price of a used road Zipp. A forum member can make you a track conversion axle (I have one but apparently the hub is not exactly a match for the axle, meaning it's not the right hub for the axle. The conversion axle isn't light but I can't imagine that being an issue).

Zipp wheels are generally older so stuff is not as strong.

I looked into Renn (no longer making track conversion kits). Some others but I don't remember.

I waited patiently and bought a new Corima track rear wheel, it was even the stiffer one ("+"). It cost less than the used Zipp + conversion axle. However, and I didn't know this when I bought it, Corima now makes a flat disc wheel, and this one is flat.

Look at pricing for a used Zipp + conversion axle. Look at Corima or similar wheels new. You may end up getting a Corima wheel.

I didn't consider a non-branded wheel. I know that the brand name ones are generally built by other companies but I want to have that quality control, design, etc, that the branded companies are looking for.

I have friends that work overseas finding manufacturers for some of the big bike industry companies and the quality range of stuff he's shown me is astonishingly wide. I don't want to be on the wrong end of that wide spectrum. My race wheels, for example, are made at a factory that my friend has visited to do quality control checks (for the "manufacturer"). He worked for a big bike company that produced a lot of stuff overseas. etc.

[nublar]

How about two rear wheels with one custom fairing that you swap back and forth?

[gibbo]

Thanks all, great information, I’ll have a think before doing anything, but I must admit for the price some of the Chinese no name options are very tempting.


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[nooneline]

fwiw, I stopped using disc wheels for track racing even though I was racing at a somewhat high level (national and UCI stuff). Disc wheels have the least aerodynamic payoff, and - from fairly ordinary race and travel mishaps - I managed to damage 3 discs in the span of 3 or 4 years. Since the sport required of travel (for me), I stuck with conventional wheels and don't think I suffered for it.

[carpediemracing]

fwiw, I stopped using disc wheels for track racing even though I was racing at a somewhat high level (national and UCI stuff). Disc wheels have the least aerodynamic payoff, and - from fairly ordinary race and travel mishaps - I managed to damage 3 discs in the span of 3 or 4 years. Since the sport required of travel (for me), I stuck with conventional wheels and don't think I suffered for it.

Interesting. One Masters WC sold her (very distinctive) disc wheel and is on taller non-disc wheels.

I'm not particularly careful with my equipment but even so having the disc wheels in the bike room is a bit of a pain. One topple and there'll be a hole in the side.

[oldguy00]

If worried about damage/expense, then maybe go with a wheelbuilder wheel cover?

[nooneline]

Interesting. One Masters WC sold her (very distinctive) disc wheel and is on taller non-disc wheels.

I'm not particularly careful with my equipment but even so having the disc wheels in the bike room is a bit of a pain. One topple and there'll be a hole in the side.

Yeah. I had an ancient Zipp disc (900?) and when TSA inspected my rig on my first trip to Nats, they put it back in to my bike case unprotected and my front wheel's axle put a hole in it. I slapped a sticker over it and ignored it until I was able to get a carbon patch put on it. After that, I really held my breath every time I packed my disc into my travel bag, and wound up building a protective sleeve for it out of some very high-density rubber.

A couple years later I was on a nicer disc, a modern Zipp, and a touch of wheels on track in response to a crash and another rider's front axle nut gouged a https://www.instagram.com/p/BGhwbZ0Etfu/ right through my disc. Finished the race but no patch would fix that one.

When it came down to it, ease of travel and durability were as much of a concern for me as aerodynamics, and a rear disc doesn't add much aerodynamic advantage over a reasonably aerodynamic wheelset... and my matching 4-spokes looked pretty dope. So I was content to sell my last disc for about the cost of a trip to nats.

(All that said, some discs are VERY tough. Zipps and some other flat discs have a pretty thin skin, but a lot of tensioned/hollow/lenticular discs have a pretty thick layer of carbon. If you haven't handled one, it might take you by surprise how thick the wall of a classic Mavic Comete disc is. It takes a lot more than a basement topple to put a hole in one of those, and I've seen infield mechs slap a piece of electrical tape over a crash-induced gouge and put them right back in service underneath world-class riders.)

This all might not be helpful information for gibbo, who, it sounds like has a local velodrome (or, if an Aussie, likely *several* local velodromes) and perhaps has no plan to spend all summer flying around the country to race.

If worried about damage/expense, then maybe go with a wheelbuilder wheel cover?

these do not work with track wheels.

[carpediemracing]

(All that said, some discs are VERY tough. Zipps and some other flat discs have a pretty thin skin, but a lot of tensioned/hollow/lenticular discs have a pretty thick layer of carbon. If you haven't handled one, it might take you by surprise how thick the wall of a classic Mavic Comete disc is. It takes a lot more than a basement topple to put a hole in one of those, and I've seen infield mechs slap a piece of electrical tape over a crash-induced gouge and put them right back in service underneath world-class riders.)

Interesting.

Former leadout rider / former teammate / best man / SoCal training camp host / bike industry person, his (Cat 2) wife did track for a few years. For track the team's coach / guru / not-sure-of-his-role showed up with bags and bags of Mavic wheels. Apparently it's super quick to tap in the axles, the wheels are super tough, etc.

My friend said that the robustness was a huge part of those wheels. Sure, they were fast enough, but they were also strong enough to be usable when you actually got to Worlds / Nationals / Whatever. He said that the Zipp and other discs he saw seemed way more fragile, you had to be careful when tapping in axles, etc. In a crowded infield, scrambling to change gearing or wheels or whatever, having such robust wheels would be a benefit.

[Look585]

(All that said, some discs are VERY tough. Zipps and some other flat discs have a pretty thin skin, but a lot of tensioned/hollow/lenticular discs have a pretty thick layer of carbon. If you haven't handled one, it might take you by surprise how thick the wall of a classic Mavic Comete disc is. It takes a lot more than a basement topple to put a hole in one of those, and I've seen infield mechs slap a piece of electrical tape over a crash-induced gouge and put them right back in service underneath world-class riders.)


...showed up with bags and bags of Mavic wheels. Apparently it's super quick to tap in the axles, the wheels are super tough, etc.

My friend said that the robustness was a huge part of those wheels. Sure, they were fast enough, but they were also strong enough to be usable when you actually got to Worlds / Nationals / Whatever.

I didn't travel a *ton* for racing, but the Mavic Comete↔iO↔Comete sandwich is a perfect blend of convenience, speed, and durability. With a couple adjustable wrenches, the axles come out of all three wheels, each goes in a bag, and the bags go in a Tri-All-Three triple wheel case. Not even TSA can do any damage without being totally careless and abusive. Even then, the wheels are super tough and raceable with holes in them.

Yeah, they aren't cheap, but used they aren't *that* expensive. Particularly given you'll likely be able to sell them years later for >75% of what you paid.

[nooneline]

all that, plus, like "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" - nobody ever thinks that they lost a race because they were riding Mavics. Even though more modern aerodynamic data suggests that they're not the fastest wheels out there...

In addition to "also strong enough to be usable when you actually got to Worlds / Nationals / Whatever," they're also strong enough to be passed around within a team or institute or whatever. Track gear takes a lot of beating - not always while it's being used, but during travel, wheel changes, gear changes, etc. Road stuff gets worn out while it's being ridden; track stuff doesn't. but there are plenty of Mavic sets out there that have been passed around a national team, a program, or just from rider to rider through the infield - and are much, much older than any road stuff in service at similar levels of competition.

[gibbo]

I’m not planning on flying with the Disc, plenty of local Velodromes to race and train on.
I’m looking at the wheel below, for the price it might be worth a bit of a gamble I think.


https://m.au.dhgate.com/product/700c-carbon-fiber-disc-wheel-track-and-road/424095610.html?f=bm%7CGMC%7Cpla%7C1682264326%7C683 85750634%7C424095610%7Cpla-717940284617%7C024057003002%7CAU%7Crolyzhu%7Cm%7C2 %7C#redirect_detail=PC2WAP


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[oldguy00]

I’m not planning on flying with the Disc, plenty of local Velodromes to race and train on.
I’m looking at the wheel below, for the price it might be worth a bit of a gamble I think.


https://m.au.dhgate.com/product/700c-carbon-fiber-disc-wheel-track-and-road/424095610.html?f=bm%7CGMC%7Cpla%7C1682264326%7C683 85750634%7C424095610%7Cpla-717940284617%7C024057003002%7CAU%7Crolyzhu%7Cm%7C2 %7C#redirect_detail=PC2WAP


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That looks to be the equivalent of 600-650 US for a no name knock off disc wheel. For about the same price, you should be able to find a very lightly used HED Jet disc or Zipp 900 if you want tubie.

[gibbo]

$560 USD, and that comes with both track and road axel/hub combo. Prices for used Zipp or HED here (Australia) must be a bit higher as there is nothing used for a similar price. A used Zipp would be +$200 to $300 at least, and would be track only.....


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