OT: Subaru Outback head gasket, timing belt, and 105k service options

[NYCfixie]

My 2009 Subaru Outback Limited 2.5i Auto Trans. is due for the 105K service, timing belt and water pump, and head gaskets.

The dealer wants $4268 for all of it.
The trusted local mechanic wants $2300-$2500 for all of it.

The car is otherwise in both good mechanical and cosmetic shape (always been garaged) so it is worth it to us to do this work and replace tires and some suspension parts (ball joints, bushings, etc).

I trust the dealer because they do this work often but are very expensive.

The local mechanic has a very good reputation but when I asked about machining the heads he said it was not necessary: "just install new gaskets and put everything back together". This worries me because the dealer and almost everything I have read on the internet says the heads should be machined as part of replacing the gaskets even though the car has never overheated.

I started researching Subaru specific "race tune" shops in the Boston area and two came back with good reviews and they also perform "routine" service. I have not yet called or stopped by but from a theoretical standpoint, would you trust the overpriced dealer, the local mechanic, or a Subaru specific shop to do what is a very basic but time consuming job?

Has anyone in the Boston are ever had this work done at a mechanic they trust or worked with either of these "tune" shops?

https://kineticmotorworks.com/
https://www.signalmotorsports.com/

[wc1934]

Not familiar with either of those shops - I have had good luck (trusted) Don and Wally's on Route 1 Norwood.

[p nut]

Does the HG really need to be done at 105k? Seems really soon unless they’re blown.

[NYCfixie]

Does the HG really need to be done at 105k? Seems really soon unless they’re blown.

Leaking oil on both sides (I saw it with my own eyes).

From what I have learned over the years "blown" literally means the car has overheated otherwise classified as "leaking".

Our 2000 Outback had them replaced at 87,000 due to leaking coolant and my mother's 2001 Forester had them done at 75,000 so we are all too familiar with this engine and the head gasket issue.

[Bentley]

Does the HG really need to be done at 105k? Seems really soon unless they’re blown.

I would not mess with the head gasket unless it was “leaking”. That said, anything on-line about that being a problem?

Also, if you replace the head gasket, it’s always recommended that you resurface the head, but I’ve replaced them (on other Makes) without resurfacing without an issue.

Not sure the cost of parts, but even 2300 sounds a bit steep

Ray

[NYCfixie]

I would not mess with the head gasket unless it was “leaking”. That said, anything on-line about that being a problem?

Also, if you replace the head gasket, it’s always recommended that you resurface the head, but I’ve replaced them (on other Makes) without resurfacing without an issue.

Not sure the cost of parts, but even 2300 sounds a bit steep

Ray

They are a known problem on Subarus from 1999-2014 (EJ20/EJ25 era engines) and even before 1999 on earlier engines.

$2300 for head gaskets, timing belt, water pump, thermostat, and drive belts. And this is the Boston/Brookline area.

[p nut]

Leaking oil on both sides (I saw it with my own eyes).

From what I have learned over the years "blown" literally means the car has overheated otherwise classified as "leaking".

Our 2000 Outback had them replaced at 87,000 due to leaking coolant and my mother's 2001 Forester had them done at 75,000 so we are all too familiar with this engine and the head gasket issue.

Gotcha. I thought the problem was about out of the system after 98-00. Guess not?

Did you consider perhaps just trading it for a 2010+? I’ve heard the EJ motors in 10-12 were good. I had a ‘13 which ran great but only kept it until 75k.
Upgrade to H6 wouldn’t be a bad idea either.

Just a thought.

[AngryScientist]

my feeling is that if the head gaskets are leaking, it's because the mating surfaces are no longer both perfectly parallel, so just slapping in new gaskets is unlikely to be a long term fix for leaking heads. if you want to keep the car long term, you have to fix the problem, not the symptoms.

that said, the dealer estimate is a LOT of money to put into that car. i just looked and the truecar value of your subaru is pretty darn close to the dealer cost for the full refurbishment, add in tires and suspension parts, and you're throwing a lot of money at a car compared to it's value.

to me, it's piss poor engine design to need head work at just 100k miles. modern vehicles should easily reach the 200k mark without needing to take apart the major components of the engine or trans.

i would be looking for LONG term warranty coverage to even consider this work, as it's my experience that when you pull the heads off an engine and put everything back together, there is a greater than not chance you wont get a good seal, unless the job is done perfectly. dont forget to replace the head bolts and ensure proper torque, or one could easily snap 10k down the road.

i'm all for keeping good cars on the road forever. my last few jeeps, and my last few BMW's before that went well over 1/4 million miles without needing tthe engine or trans opened up.

i'd think long and hard about swapping to a different vehicle that doesnt need this much attention. at 100k a good modern engine is just breaking in. or should be.

[verbs4us]

Difficult choice. I have a 2008 LL Bean Outback and it has been one of "the good ones," since it's in that span when head gasket problems were common. If it were my car, and the car did not have a history of overheating (eg, possible warping of the head) then I might try just gasket replacement without milling. I toggle back and forth between two local dealers (none good) and a local independent mechanic (some are OK but not great). In general I find OEM parts are about twice after-market parts and in some cases, the savings might be fraught. For example, I don't think I'd skimp on a water pump, since the labor is more than the parts. Have you thought about having your indy mechanic source OEM parts and see what that does to the cost?

[FlashUNC]

The EJ's are head gasket eaters, so not a huge shock on that front. I would be very skeptical of any mechanic who said machining the heads isn't necessary.

[NYCfixie]

i'd think long and hard about swapping to a different vehicle that doesnt need this much attention. at 100k a good modern engine is just breaking in. or should be.

Our building does not allow self-park so we are not putting a new car in the hands of people who make minimum wage to park cars and don't care. Buying another used car is just getting into someone else's headache unless you buy CPO and then you have the same problem as a new car in our situation, an expensive care the garage will bang up.


For example, I don't think I'd skimp on a water pump, since the labor is more than the parts. Have you thought about having your indy mechanic source OEM parts and see what that does to the cost?

There is a known 3rd party Japanese kit (AISIN) for the timing belt, water pump, pulleys, and tensioners. Thermostat is always Subaru OEM. Local mechanic said these are the parts he would use for timing belt and water pump part of the work.

The EJ's are head gasket eaters, so not a huge shock on that front. I would be very skeptical of any mechanic who said machining the heads isn't necessary.

That is why I am worried. Even if he just said we clean them off with brake fluid cleaner but the "we just slap on new gaskets" comment worried me.


***** We only keep this car for three reasons: occasional trips to NYC to see family (more important now since we will not take the train until there is a c19 vaccine), food shopping once a week, and a trip to the North Shore every weekend to check-in on my wife's 80 year old mother. Other than that, it sits in the building's garage because we can walk/bike everywhere else. We know owning a car is a luxury in our situation but my wife will not have it any other way and it is not worth the fight; she wants to be available to her mother 24/7 because we are only 36 miles away. *****

[MikeD]

The EJ's are head gasket eaters, so not a huge shock on that front. I would be very skeptical of any mechanic who said machining the heads isn't necessary.


At least measure the head for flatness, maybe the block too.

[weisan]

You are the paying customer. If you ask nicely and respectfully for your mechanic to do the machining, I bet he will agree. And it will still be cheaper than going to the dealership.

Problem solved.

I won't throw someone away just because they have a different approach.

Case in point: I clamp the top tube on the repair stand. Been doing that for 30+ years. No problem. Why, you don't like it? Then don't ask me to fix your bike. Simple.

[pbarry]

At least measure the head for flatness, maybe the block too.
This. No need to machine if heads are within spec. Gasket and horizontal layout of engine are the culprits. ;)

[Mike V]

This. No need to machine if heads are within spec. Gasket and horizontal layout of engine are the culprits. ;)

This. I have had many Subarus. I have done the repair myself also. Never had one out of square until after 200k or on track motor.

[gemship]

My 2009 Subaru Outback Limited 2.5i Auto Trans. is due for the 105K service, timing belt and water pump, and head gaskets.

The dealer wants $4268 for all of it.
The trusted local mechanic wants $2300-$2500 for all of it.

The car is otherwise in both good mechanical and cosmetic shape (always been garaged) so it is worth it to us to do this work and replace tires and some suspension parts (ball joints, bushings, etc).

I trust the dealer because they do this work often but are very expensive.

The local mechanic has a very good reputation but when I asked about machining the heads he said it was not necessary: "just install new gaskets and put everything back together". This worries me because the dealer and almost everything I have read on the internet says the heads should be machined as part of replacing the gaskets even though the car has never overheated.

I started researching Subaru specific "race tune" shops in the Boston area and two came back with good reviews and they also perform "routine" service. I have not yet called or stopped by but from a theoretical standpoint, would you trust the overpriced dealer, the local mechanic, or a Subaru specific shop to do what is a very basic but time consuming job?

Has anyone in the Boston are ever had this work done at a mechanic they trust or worked with either of these "tune" shops?

https://kineticmotorworks.com/
https://www.signalmotorsports.com/

OK Dude your in luck that I read your post here. I like to lurk on this forum and not much more than that. More than a few times I've been shunned by the PC police here and maybe it was my bad but I come to the conclusion that certainly this forum can be a bit hypocritical with it's OT conversations. Having said that I came out of lurk mode just for you OK and that's because I own a 2009 Subaru 2.5I just like yours except I got the 5 speed model. Also I had the very same work you just had done with one exception I pushed that service interval to somewhere I believe 145,000 miles.

So the dealer sounds expensive but worth it. The private mechanic sounds more in the ballpark. Personally I didn't have my heads machined. I only had the mentioned work done because it was advised by my mechanic and maybe one of the best in the greater Boston area. That would be Boxer Subaru of Salem, Ma. Two man shop and these guys are awesome! Look em up and give em the work and thank me later. What they'll do is put the car on a lift and run it at the same time and walk you thru whats up with it if need be. Well that's what they did with mine because I had all that work done plus I had what called the viscous coupling rebuilt and that part of the drivetrain is something most mechanics will not mess with. The engine and transmission had to come out to have that done. Valve covers with frozen studs had to be cut off to get to the heads but these guys did it all with perfection. They did 6k bucks worth of work in less than five days. I made an appt. to have them look at the car then I made an appt. to drop it off for the work. I also had some minor chassis suspension parts replaced. I believe a sway bar upfront and the rear dogbone/links. They were great to deal with and they even dealt with my aftermarket warranty that I got with the car when I bought used. Good luck whatever you decided to do it's not that big a deal except to say that it's the only weak link to these cars because this year Subaru aside from all that is a great car to own and most everything else on the car is decent if not great quality. You'll never get you money back in terms of resale but if you like the car then you'll get it back in terms of use and no need to buy another car to replace.

[bicycletricycle]

I think a decision like this depends a lot on what your second option would be. If you didn't get it fixed would you buy new? Buying another used car can be a crap shoot, new cars lock you into payments for a long time. 5k is 1-2 years of car payments, I think your subi will last longer than that with the work you have described although I know some subarus have transmission/differential problems as well and that would set you back.

If I liked the car and felt the rest of it was going to hold up for another couple years I would fix it.

[gemship]

I think a decision like this depends a lot on what your second option would be. If you didn't get it fixed would you buy new? Buying another used car can be a crap shoot, new cars lock you into payments for a long time. 5k is 1-2 years of car payments, I think your subi will last longer than that with the work you have described although I know some subarus have transmission/differential problems as well and that would set you back.

If I liked the car and felt the rest of it was going to hold up for another couple years I would fix it.

This is basically the position I put myself in with mine. She had good bones so to speak so a year ago I went thru with it throwing caution in the wind. For me personally I was into the car for roughly 7 grand out of pocket with only 9 months of ownership but it did have a warranty and I figured that between my 7k invested plus a budget of another 8k over a five year period I would have a reliable car that can work out of and that's what I do. I make money with this car. I tow a 14'ft. Mirrocraft aluminum skiff with a 20 horse outboard about three miles 4 to 6 days a week to a landing to go commercial clamming. Then I put another 45 miles there abouts on her to sell the clams. Then you can throw in maybe another couple thousand miles a year on her for all the other crap one does with a car to maintain household.

Yeap it's a crapshoot but so far the repairs have held up for over a year and I figure my 3k a year budget with outright ownership beats a car payment and all the other fees of new car ownership plus I only put minimal insurance coverage on her so I save mucho there too.

Subaru's have the best 4wd system in the whole wide world for the money. I take that boat out of muddy tidal areas when need be and I have even parked in some pretty sketchy offroad areas with what I would say light trail riding just to get to flats. The only limits offroad with that car is the ground clearance. That car is better than a jeep in terms of drive train FWIW. Not to mention electronics of comparable years.

[Hellgate]

Head gaskets aren't listed. If you're putting $4,200 into an 11 year old car it's time for a new car. Especially a Subaru.

Seattle wants $1,200 for it.

https://www.cartersubaruballard.com/subaru-recommended-105-000-mile-special-service.htm

[Mikej]

They have timing belts? I’d trade it in as is

[merckx]

I've had three Subarus. From my experience, I'd punt.

[.RJ]

Its a lot of money, but, the cost of the repairs are not much more than the tax and fees on buying a new car.

105k isnt that many miles - if you like the car and want to keep it a few more years, service it and move on, ask the mechanic to have the heads checked but I doubt they need resurfacing. I'm surprised to hear head gaskets are leaking oil - its normally coolant that weeps out, and its not from being overheated or not flat any longer, its a ****ty design.

If you dont like it or are ready to move on, trade it in as-is.

My $.02

[NYCfixie]

Our 2000 Outback had them replaced at 87,000 due to leaking coolant and my mother's 2001 Forester had them done at 75,000 so we are all too familiar with this engine and the head gasket issue.



Our building does not allow self-park so we are not putting a new car in the hands of people who make minimum wage to park cars and don't care. Buying another used car is just getting into someone else's headache unless you buy CPO and then you have the same problem as a new car in our situation, an expensive care the garage will bang up.

***** We only keep this car for three reasons: occasional trips to NYC to see family (more important now since we will not take the train until there is a c19 vaccine), food shopping once a week, and a trip to the North Shore every weekend to check-in on my wife's 80 year old mother. Other than that, it sits in the building's garage because we can walk/bike everywhere else. We know owning a car is a luxury in our situation but my wife will not have it any other way and it is not worth the fight; she wants to be available to her mother 24/7 because we are only 36 miles away. *****

Re-posting my own posts for those that jumped into this thread later on. We are keeping the car which was never the question.

The question was do we have the work at the dealer, the local mechanic, one of the local race tune shops I found with good feedback, or another shop? I will check out the Boxer Motor Works (https://salemsubarurepair.com/) mentioned above as well as the tune shops.

I think even the older Subarus are good cars if you put the money into them. If we do head-gaskets, timing belt, water pump, thermostat, and a few other small items we should get another 100k out of this car. These older cars may be saddled by the head gaskets but the newer ones have it much worse: CVT. It is not a matter of if the CVT will blow up but rather when. So many new cars will die early deaths when owners realize that no shops will work on the so called "lifetime sealed CVT transmission" and must have it replaced for a few thousand dollars.

If I were going to buy a new similar type car today, I would get the Toyota Rav4 gasoline with the 8 speed transmission because the Subarus, Hondas, and many other cars in the small SUV/utility class have CVT transmissions which are terrible.

[bicycletricycle]

If you are going to keep it for sure I would say. Choose a reputable independent subaru shop over the dealer. Get them to deck the heads. I don't see why you would skip that while they are in there. I would be a little suspicious of the shop that didn't recommend that, I would prefer a more perfectionist shop over a good enough attitude.



Re-posting my own posts for those that jumped into this thread later on. We are keeping the car which was never the question.

The question was do we have the work at the dealer, the local mechanic, one of the local race tune shops I found with good feedback, or another shop? I will check out the Boxer Motor Works (https://salemsubarurepair.com/) mentioned above as well as the tune shops.

I think even the older Subarus are good cars if you put the money into them. If we do head-gaskets, timing belt, water pump, thermostat, and a few other small items we should get another 100k out of this car. These older cars may be saddled by the head gaskets but the newer ones have it much worse: CVT. It is not a matter of if the CVT will blow up but rather when. So many new cars will die early deaths when owners realize that no shops will work on the so called "lifetime sealed CVT transmission" and must have it replaced for a few thousand dollars.

If I were going to buy a new similar type car today, I would get the Toyota Rav4 gasoline with the 8 speed transmission because the Subarus, Hondas, and many other cars in the small SUV/utility class have CVT transmissions which are terrible.

[cmbicycles]

My understanding, from reading a bunch, and speaking to the independent Subie mechanic who did my HGs on my 02, is that it is the gasket material itself that fails and it isnt a heat related issue that causes the seal to deteriorate. The graph-foil type gasket that Subaru, and many engine manufacturers, use dont take well to the fluids sitting on them when not being driven, which happens with the horizontally opposed heads on the Subaru engine design. The multi-material aftermarket gaskets are supposed to be lifetime parts for these engines. Its very possible the heads dont need to be machined, mine didnt, and the independent mechanic is right. I'm pretty sure the independent mechanic would check the heads for flatness once they are off the car. The dealer will only put the same failed gasket material back on the car as that is what is the spec, they wont use the aftermarket gaskets that are supposed to actually fix the problem. Had the gaskets done on my 02 at 100k, its now at 165k and no issues... well it has other issues, but nothing major or related to hg.

[bigreen505]

What the dealership is charging is ridiculous. What the independent is charging is slightly on the high side, but that may be within reason for your area. The timing belt is rated for 105,000 miles OR 10 years. I can tell you that mine lasted 10 years, barely. It was full of cracks. I don't know what "replace the head gaskets and put it all back together" means. Pretty much anything replaceable gets replaced -- pumps, belts, gaskets, seals, head bolts. Might as well do valve cover gaskets while you're there. If they aren't leaking yet, they will be. If the rest of the car basically works, get the service done and keep on driving it. If there are a lot of other issues, consider replacing the car. On these cars, this isn't a major repair, it is regular maintenance. Just a big expensive one that comes up every 10/105k.

[cinema]

i am in agreement with those here who believe you should not have to machine the head. if it isnt overheating it has not warped. simply the gasket is toast (i assume)

go to the third party mechanic, never the dealer. a 5k bill for that work on your car is probably more than the price you’d get quoted to put in a new cvt on a newer vehicle. i have done these jobs before and it is a few hours if i do everything preventative in and around there while im in there.you sound pretty vehicle literate as well so you probably know that price is close to the cost of a replacement engine.

as a side note my toyota cvt is still going strong at 220k miles. i changed the ‘lifetime fluid’ at 100k and again at 200.

[NYCfixie]

...you sound pretty vehicle literate as well so you probably know that price is close to the cost of a replacement engine...

My first car was a used 1982 VW rabbit diesel. My first new car was a 1987 Chevy s-10 Blazer. Both of those crappy cars taught me more about engines, suspension, cooling systems, bad vacuum lines, under-powered brakes, and electrical systems that I ever wanted to know. This was all pre-internet so without the Chilton's manuals I would have gone mad.

Growing up and living most of my life in NYC, I am not sure I have owned as many cars as others but this is the history:
- 1982 VW Rabbit diesel
- 1987 Chevy S-10 Blazer
- 1996 Saab 9000 (with the dreaded GM V6, borrowed from my younger brother)
- 2000 Subaru Outback Limited 2.5i (because my wife thought it was cool and was the primary driver)
- 2009 Subaru Outback Limited 2.5i (because my wife thought it was cool and was/is the primary driver)

As mentioned earlier, if we ever do get another car at some point in the future, it will be a Toyota/Lexus as they seem to have the best reliability.

[oldpotatoe]

My 2009 Subaru Outback Limited 2.5i Auto Trans. is due for the 105K service, timing belt and water pump, and head gaskets.

The dealer wants $4268 for all of it.
The trusted local mechanic wants $2300-$2500 for all of it.

:eek::eek::eek:

[YoKev]

If you're planning on keeping the car, then I would go with your trusted independent mechanic.

I will second what is already said stating that the gasket material fails. There have been multiple versions of HGs released over the years. Also, IMHO, no need to get machining done unless it overheated.

I absolutely would not throw $4 g's at your car @ dealership prices. For that money, you can probably find another used one on CL with the HG's and other maintenance already done for not much more and sell yours for $4 or $5 thousand.

[Zee]

Leaking oil on both sides (I saw it with my own eyes).

From what I have learned over the years "blown" literally means the car has overheated otherwise classified as "leaking".

Our 2000 Outback had them replaced at 87,000 due to leaking coolant and my mother's 2001 Forester had them done at 75,000 so we are all too familiar with this engine and the head gasket issue.

Just so it's documented, that oil leak you saw was 99% from the valve cover gaskets and NOT the head to the short block.

It will need to come apart and if you have NOT had any overheating trouble and the mating surfaces come back within spec, you do not *need* to machine anything.

I vote keep the vehicle.

[verbs4us]

Everything I have read about the Subie headgasket problems indicate it was due to a *flawed gasket* from their supplier. Hence, if there is no history of overheating, then probably yes--you don't need to mill nothin (except your bank account).

[Ralph]

After I retired in 98, just to stay busy did some part time work in a Classic car restoration shop. I learned real quick that body work costs a lot more than mechanical work on vehicles.

So....if you still like the car, it serves your needs, etc....and the body is good, go ahead and spend what it takes to fix the mechanicals. I think most people trade cars just because they want to (and nothing wrong with that), when there is not much you can't fix mechanically cheaper than buying another....as long as the body is good. And...I think a lot of cars get traded because the owners can't afford the repairs, while they can (sorta) afford in their budget the payments on a new car.

Shucks....I like to say....there is not much mechanically you can't repair for just the cost of sales tax on a new car. And another thing...A friend of mine is a service writer at a Honda dealership. He personally drives a super charged Mustang....but he says the CVT transmissions are having fewer problems than regular automatics. At least the ones he sees.

[pobrien]

I would sell the car and keep the money in a 'visit the mother in law' account so you can rent a car any time your wife wants to see her mother.

This is nice and clean.

The backyard mechanics are not worth the pain. If you could do the work yourself, that would save you a pile of money. If not, sell it and rent as needed.

There, problem solved!

Patrick

[OtayBW]

I think even the older Subarus are good cars if you put the money into them.This seems a little counterintuitive to me, but GL with whatever your plan works out to be.

[ScottW]

'05 Legacy GT here with 239K and counting.
As Zee notes above, I would make absolutely certain that it's the head gaskets leaking and not simply the valve cover gaskets.
Valve cover gaskets are known leakers on Subies but those can be done without pulling the motor. For the head gaskets the motor has to come out which adds a bunch of hours to the labor. That will be the majority of what you're being quoted, either from the dealer or the indy.

If it is in fact the head gaskets, was there not a recall or TSB covering those on the non-turbos? I don't remember. I know the HGs had been a problem with previous model years but I thought that had been worked out by '09. Granted, last I did any reading on the matter there were probably not a ton of '09s with enough miles on them yet.

Timing belt and water pump is simple stuff on the EJs, did the 105K and 210K replacements on mine myself. It's even easier on the 2.5i than on the turbos because you have two fewer cam pulleys to tango with. Basically an afternoon of work and about $300-400 in parts. I replace the upper & lower rad hoses and the smaller coolant connecting hoses while it's drained down.

As to paying to fix or just trading it in... what else would you do with that $3K to get you a better performing foul weather tank (assuming AWD is important to you, which it must be, otherwise you probably wouldn't own a Subie) or a more reliable vehicle?
At 105K you should be prepared to have some other issues crop up in the near future if they haven't already... wheel bearings, CV joints (due to torn boots), and misc suspension stuff like sway bar end links & bushings, control arm bushings, etc. For the most part though the drivetrain should easily go another 100K.

[cinema]

Just so it's documented, that oil leak you saw was 99% from the valve cover gaskets and NOT the head to the short block.

It will need to come apart and if you have NOT had any overheating trouble and the mating surfaces come back within spec, you do not *need* to machine anything.

I vote keep the vehicle.

yeah this could be it. at the block you would normally see coolant as that is where the channels are surroundjng the engine—. could be a mix of oil and coolant if its from there, in which case op would also see a bit of water at oil change. at that point i would not continue to put money into the engine.

i REALLY hate working on cars at this point. but i will do it most of the time. if i could spend 1k to not do a head gsket i might pay that but at 2k i might set aside a weekend to try my luck.

i have had valve covers leak all the way down to the oil pan thinking my rear main or oil pn gasket was the culprit

[NYCfixie]

So....if you still like the car, it serves your needs, etc....and the body is good, go ahead and spend what it takes to fix the mechanicals. I think most people trade cars just because they want to (and nothing wrong with that)...

Always been garaged so the body is good. Inside is good because we do not have kids and are not slobs.

I really appreciate all the advice from posters but think it is funny when people start talking about the financial equation. Others have suggested that it would be cheaper to get something else but when you do the actual math it does not add up. If you factor car payments and higher insurance on a new or a CPO car, it would cost $400-$500 per month. We own this car already so even if we spend $3,000 on repairs and keep it only 1 more year, we are still ahead in terms of cost. Someone else suggested to get rid of the car and keep the money in account to use for rentals. It is a good idea which we considered but it does not gives us the ability to call the garage and ask them to take out the car and then we can be off in less than 5 minutes. Rentals take time, Zip Car takes time and is expensive if one uses the car for more than an hour, Uber/Lyft are too expensive for longer trips.

Unless I have a Ferrari 250 GT Berlinetta SWB (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_250) I simply do not care about cars because they are a tool to get from point A to point B.

[NYCfixie]

As to paying to fix or just trading it in... what else would you do with that $3K to get you a better performing foul weather tank (assuming AWD is important to you, which it must be, otherwise you probably wouldn't own a Subie) or a more reliable vehicle?
At 105K you should be prepared to have some other issues crop up in the near future if they haven't already... wheel bearings, CV joints (due to torn boots), and misc suspension stuff like sway bar end links & bushings, control arm bushings, etc. For the most part though the drivetrain should easily go another 100K.

Exactly.

We have already done both front CV joints/axles/boots and power steering pump so we may be due for some other suspension bits soon.

I think what might have got lost in this thread (and probably my fault) is that we do not drive this car more than 5k a year at this point. So spending $400-$500 for a new or CPO car to sit in the garage most of the week does not make sense on any level.

This thread was always about who to trust to do the work since the dealership is so expensive and the car is out of the original 7yr/100k Subaru factory warranty.

[mistermo]

I've had three Subarus. From my experience, I'd punt.

I had this same problem with mine. The repair was more $ than the car was worth. The leaking gaskets were pooling oil on the garage floor. And the leaks or oil loss, would cause the car to seize, or hiccup, repeatedly when power was required, such as going up a hill. For 25+ years they've been saying the head gasket issue has been solved and, sure enough, five years later, the supposedly corrected head gaskets start leaking. I've concluded its the design of the boxer engine.

But, they DO have the best AWD system out there (especially in the manual transmission cars).

I'm in the midwest now, but had my Subaru when I lived in CT. There's LOTS of knowledgeable Subaru mechanics in New England. I'd take it to a 3rd party to get the tie breaker recommendation.

[NYCfixie]

But, they DO have the best AWD system out there (especially in the manual transmission cars).



It's actually better in the Auto because the computer controls it and can send power to any wheel. The manual transmission does not allow the AWD to have the same flexibility and control.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBQlK89PyxQ

[MikeD]

Wait, is the head gasket blown or not? Leaking oil is not a head gasket issue. It's probably the valve cover gaskets. Coolant into the oil is usually a blown head gasket, cracked block or head. A blown head gasket can also over pressurize the cooling system and blow out the coolant through the overflow. I've never heard of replacing a good head gasket as a preventive maintenance task, but I don't own a Subaru.

[mistermo]

It's actually better in the Auto because the computer controls it and can send power to any wheel. The manual transmission does not allow the AWD to have the same flexibility and control.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBQlK89PyxQ

It likely depends on year, model and awd system? Mine was a 2006 and the power was split evenly, 50:50 between front and rear. It was nearly impossible to get it stuck in the snow. At times, the snow was over the hood of the car and it drove beautifully, plowing through. My neighbor had the same year, and model, but auto. At times, I had to drive over and tow him out of his driveway, with my manual Outback. IIRC, his car was biased towards rear wheel drive and when the system would kick in, it was too late.

I wouldn't be surprised if Subaru has improved the system since those days and I don't believe they offer a manual in an Outback any longer, though i could be mistaken. Despite the stellar performance in the snow, I abandoned the brand due to my experience, and others' stories of head gasket issues.

[JAGI410]

Agreed on the valve cover gasket, that's what happened to mine. Easy DIY fix to do at same time as spark plugs. Headgaskets should never be routine maintenance. That's just profiting over the normal fears that Subarus supposedly have HG issues.

I paid to have my 105k service done, it was $1200 or so. I'll do it myself at 210k.

[cinema]

thread drift... one reason they are so great at getting unstuck compared to big dumb 4x4s is they are super light. like my 90s unibody i6 jeeps they weigh like 3k pounds. with just a LSD it will pull out a mud rut in seconds while meatheads struggle in vain with their 5k lb rovers and cruisers. no offense ive had a few rovers and they were awesome.

let us know what the outcome is but i think confirming its not the valve cover is important too. check coolant for oil. i imagine a valve cover is a 30-60min job in a carport for you with a couple sockets and extensions

[scoobydrew]

+1 on checking if it's the valve cover gaskets. They had to be replaced at around 150k miles on my old 2001 Impreza. Relatively straightforward job to do at home.

[JanG]

I'd add to the recommendation to check the coolant for oil that you should check the oil for coolant. For the former, there are test strips available to indicate oil present in coolant (there are also more sophisticated diagnostic tools that look for hydrocarbon vapor in the air space in either the radiator or surge tank).

If the oil is at all milky colored, that indicates either water or coolant is present (some water in cold oil, particularly in cool weather is possible due to piston ring blowby bringing water from combustion products into the crankcase. This normally evaporates as the oil gets hot).

Either of the above could indicate head gasket failure. I'll add to the pile of guys saying that machining the head and block surfaces may not be necessary if there was not an overheat. Gaskets can fail due to fatigue due to pressure cyclic loads and thermal cyclic loads.

Jan G.

[.RJ]

For the head gaskets the motor has to come out which adds a bunch of hours to the labor.

Not really. The gearbox bolts are easily accessible from up top, and everything else disconnects easily to allow you to lift the whole thing up from the top. Its an hour or three max with a lift and someone that knows their way around those cars.

I would go with either the indy or the performance shop, myself, but I'd do some research and questions on both if you dont have direct experience. A lot of performance shops are just parts swappers at best and I'm not sure I'd trust them to pull a motor out for a head gasket job unless they have a good reputation with those cars and also do regular maintenance/repair work. Drive by their shop and see whats hanging out in there - if there's regular cars mixed in its a good sign, if its only newer cars slammed with expensive wheels and melon launcher exhausts, run away.

[fijichf]

I’ve had timing belts and water pumps replaced on Hondas and Audis and it has always ranged between $1,200-1,500. I don't think that I’ve seen a modern vehicle (last 15-20 years) have leaks at the head gasket with such low mileage.

[fmradio516]

Wait, is the head gasket blown or not? Leaking oil is not a head gasket issue. It's probably the valve cover gaskets. Coolant into the oil is usually a blown head gasket, cracked block or head.

+1 was going to say this. Sounded like a valve cover gasket and makes more sense than a head gasket at 100k.

[.RJ]

+1 was going to say this. Sounded like a valve cover gasket and makes more sense than a head gasket at 100k.

There is a design flaw with the subaru head gaskets. While its uncommon for most cars, its not at all uncommon with those engines. And yes, the engine should come out to do the job, it takes less time than working between the frame rails and the heads.

[Ralph]

I would probably have the work done at your trusted independent mechanic. I have 3 fairly new cars in the garage, but they are getting out of warranty soon, and I see no reason to pay dealership prices. The mechanics at the dealerships come and go, so aren't necessarily better or better trained, and while it's nice to have that dealership "experience" (good coffee, etc), I'm going to be using a local independent garage more and more. And I think some aftermarket parts are better.

[C40_guy]

The question was do we have the work at the dealer, the local mechanic, one of the local race tune shops I found with good feedback, or another shop? I will check out the Boxer Motor Works (https://salemsubarurepair.com/) mentioned above as well as the tune shops.


I've mostly owned Volvos and more recently Audis, typically bought with 100K+ on them. I've also had a couple of cars with warranties, and took them to the dealer only for warranty-specific work.

For *everything* else, I've gone to a good private mechanic, typically a European car specialist. My experience has been uniformly good. Work typically cost half of what dealer would charge, and parts, in most cases, were OEM.

I would not hesitate to go to a highly recommended independent.

You do not need to go to a tune shop. You'll be paying extra for their expertise on performance tuning without benefiting.

[.RJ]

The mechanics at the dealerships come and go, so aren't necessarily better or better trained

A lot of them go to indy shops where they're better paid and better appreciated.

[Ken Robb]

I know in the BMW world factory dealership mechanics get training on the newest systems as they come out and they will have access to the latest tools and diagnostic equipment. The best indy shops often have access to training updates too but the owners MAY not want to invest in paying for training their employees. I don't know if it still happens but for years there was a gathering in St. Louis where indy BMW shop personnel shared info and techniques for serving newer systems.

Some may hesitate to participate because they know they won't see many cars that are less than 3 years old because those cars are still under factory warranty and maybe maintenance plans. The flip side is that the dealer techs who are fully up to date on late model cars may not have had any training on the older cars that provide a living for many indy shops. Imagine the consternation of a dealer service writer presented with a BMW 2002ti needing a full service including valve adjustment and fuel injection tuning. :)
I know a couple of indy places in San Diego who love those jobs.

[dddd]

Due to the OP's low annual mileage, I vote for just doing the 105k service and VC "gaskets" as needed.

Without confirmation of any existing HG issue, I would at least keep driving it for some thousands of miles until such could be confirmed either way.

105k is probably conservative for the timing belt, I let my truck's timing belt go to 91k even though 60k was the specified replacement time. Depends on years time and on what gearing that the car spends most of it's time. City driving is of course the more taxing on all of the ancillary rotating bits.

I recently went through contemplating HG replacement on my 97 Town Car, I had mystery coolant loss but kept my observations going for a while longer. Turned out to be only a cracked plastic intake manifold, leaking and drying onto the top of the block, which I was able to replace myself (ok, took a couple of "days" of work to do, but total parts cost was only $125, and the new manifold featured an all-metal coolant crossover passage)!

I used tricks to locate the site of the coolant leakage, stuffed a roll of paper towel under a common leakage site near the thermostat housing on the manifold to give evidence to local leakage.
If your VC area can be cleaned up, at least on the lower three sides, you may be able to confirm that this is where the oil is coming from, using tissue paper to trace the external surfaces for clear areas on the paper from the oil that leaks during one driving cycle. I think it's worth the possible thousands of dollars saved to actually drive somewhere where it'll be ok to jack and support the front end a couple of times. I certainly would. Start by creating a clean path on the surface that runs between the HG joint and the VC joint (bring flashlight, mirror, rags, brushes, spray cleaners and goggles), then just trace for the oil the next time you drive.
All in all should be a fun investigation(???).

There are also many random other places where seeping oil can come from, everything from vent tube joinings to distributor o-rings (if a distributor is present at all) to oil spilled at time of an oil change, etc., etc.

[Ralph]

The poster lives in a building where someone parks his car for him. And brings it to him as needed. I kinda doubt he's doing much "do it yourself" work.

[merlinmurph]

Sometimes, your car is worth more to you than to others. You know its history, its idiosyncrasies, its faults. If you just drive it 5k miles a year, it seems like a goid independent mechanic is the best bet. I don't think I have ever brought a car into a dealer for service unless it was free.

My 2 cents

[C40_guy]

105k is probably conservative for the timing belt, I let my truck's timing belt go to 91k even though 60k was the specified replacement time. Depends on years time and on what gearing that the car spends most of it's time

Also depends on whether the engine is an interference design (ie the valves and pistons will interfere with one another's peaceful existence if the engine loses timing).

IDK if the Subaru is an interference engine; on my V6 Audi, which does have an interference engine, I've only got 60K miles on the current timing belt, but six years. Not due for another 40K mileage wise, but it's time, so to speak. $1K timing job is less expensive than a $4K engine swap...and if the timing belt went, the $4K I'd have to put into it would result in a car still worth about $4K.

[NYCfixie]

Thanks for all the replies. It appears many think it is valve cover gaskets and not head gaskets so rather than try and have people diagnose over the internet which would be similar to trying to figure out a bike squeak the same way, it will go in next week. Dealer is expensive and don’t trust them anymore. Local mechanic looked under car and saw oil and said it was head gaskets so not sure if I trust them either. Again I have been through this with our previous 2000 but since it was under warranty I did not care so much at the time.

I am taking it to the Subaru specific shop mentioned by a forum member earlier in this thread and will trust them. It’s owned by 2 high school friends who went to votech school together, then worked as mechanics at the same Subaru dealer for 10 years, and then opened their own Subaru specific shop. This might be the best option and not that far away. I can always use the Subaru specific race tune shop as a backup if needed because they also do non-race repairs and maintenance.

I really do appreciate all the input and sorry for the delayed response but I drove down to NYC this afternoon to see one of my brothers and nephews I have not seen since March.

I’ll report back after initial diagnosis and actual repair if anyone is interested.

[teleguy57]

Sounds like a well-thought through plan.

This thread reminds me how little I know about automobiles.... :eek: sigh....

But then again, I don't actually want to; the things I think I know a fair amount about and what to keep learning about keep me more than occupied:)

[cinema]

drive the car for ten min on the freeway back and forth put on a glove and just feel around the valve cover look for oil on glove oil will flow down not up so if its coming from there it will be there. should tell you. usually towards the firewall they leak cause its hottest there and the gasket breaks down fastest in the heat. might even see it pooling around one of the bolts holding the cover on bring out a flashlight. but if shop is trusted good enough i guess

[ridethecliche]

Hey OP, I lived in worcester and Im friends with a bunch of Subaru techs (master mechanic certs) that do side work. If you're interested, send me a message and I can put you in contact with them.

They're probably an hour or so from you but I'm guessing the cost would be significantly lower than what your local non dealer shop was charging you.

The headgasket issue is real on these cars (mine blew on an 02 TS), but realistically you can catch it before anything bad happens if you pay attention to temps. Not really reassuring if it starts up during a road trip though!

Honestly, they might even tell you to wait to do things for a bit longer.

I would not go to those race-tune shops. They're specialty shops. You're going to pay out the wazoo for them doing basic work.

[fmradio516]

Thanks for all the replies. It appears many think it is valve cover gaskets and not head gaskets so rather than try and have people diagnose over the internet which would be similar to trying to figure out a bike squeak the same way, it will go in next week. Dealer is expensive and don’t trust them anymore. Local mechanic looked under car and saw oil and said it was head gaskets so not sure if I trust them either. Again I have been through this with our previous 2000 but since it was under warranty I did not care so much at the time.

I am taking it to the Subaru specific shop mentioned by a forum member earlier in this thread and will trust them. It’s owned by 2 high school friends who went to votech school together, then worked as mechanics at the same Subaru dealer for 10 years, and then opened their own Subaru specific shop. This might be the best option and not that far away. I can always use the Subaru specific race tune shop as a backup if needed because they also do non-race repairs and maintenance.

I really do appreciate all the input and sorry for the delayed response but I drove down to NYC this afternoon to see one of my brothers and nephews I have not seen since March.

I’ll report back after initial diagnosis and actual repair if anyone is interested.

Havent read through the thread lately, but post a pic off the leak and we'll tell ya if its the head or valve cover gasket. I would come in person and help you replace it if it were the valve cover but I am moving to CT Saturday :( bad timing.

[NYCfixie]

Havent read through the thread lately, but post a pic off the leak and we'll tell ya if its the head or valve cover gasket. I would come in person and help you replace it if it were the valve cover but I am moving to CT Saturday :( bad timing.

Good luck with the move. I'll reach out offline.

From under the hood you can't really see anything. From underneath the car when it was on a lift there is oil seepage on both sides which is why I was told and thought it was the HG and not the VCG.

[oldpotatoe]

I’ve had timing belts and water pumps replaced on Hondas and Audis and it has always ranged between $1,200-1,500. I don't think that I’ve seen a modern vehicle (last 15-20 years) have leaks at the head gasket with such low mileage.
There is a design flaw with the subaru head gaskets. While its uncommon for most cars, its not at all uncommon with those engines. And yes, the engine should come out to do the job, it takes less time than working between the frame rails and the heads

In 45 years only had one head gasket failure..bunches of cars, some very high milage. The One was Isuzu truck..Timing belt and water pump in 2000 Beetle(done it twice) about $750..

[OtayBW]

I would come in person and help you replace it if it were the valve cover but I am moving to CT Saturday :( bad timing.No, I think it's a leak......


...I'll show myself to the door.....:cool:

[benb]

I have a 2013 Outback with 85k miles so similarly slow accumulation of miles I guess.

I have the newer engine that supposedly doesn’t eat the Head Gasket but I’ve got a CVT so that could be a potential issue and the FB motor had piston ring issues but I seem to have a good one and would have seen oil burning issues a long time ago.

It’s a good car but I don’t have any attachment to it. Mine might get $4-5k on trade and I think if it had a major issue I might get rid of it. Interior and exterior are both in great shape and it doesn’t seem like an old car at almost 8 years old.

I am getting cheap with spending as I get older and yet have more money to spend on a car too. Going to be interesting cause I do feel like this car will be totally fine and then overnight have one massive failure that makes it time to move on. It’s been easier to not care this year, I’ve probably driven less than 2k miles this year.

Good luck! I’ve been annoyed enough at Subaru dealer service I’d probably use an independent for something like this. Dealers are so swamped service sucks so why not go independent if you’re paying way less and the experience is probably better?

[NYCfixie]

I’ve been annoyed enough at Subaru dealer service I’d probably use an independent for something like this. Dealers are so swamped service sucks so why not go independent if you’re paying way less and the experience is probably better?

That was the impetus for this thread.

[fmradio516]

Good luck with the move. I'll reach out offline.

From under the hood you can't really see anything. From underneath the car when it was on a lift there is oil seepage on both sides which is why I was told and thought it was the HG and not the VCG.

Thanks!

And yeah i dont know those engines at all, but if you see it from under the lift, then its probably head gasket.. sorry :(

[NYCfixie]

The car will be dropped off on Monday at Boxer Motor Works (https://salemsubarurepair.com/) and I will report back. Thanks again to all for the advice (and empathy).



I am taking it to the Subaru specific shop mentioned by a forum member earlier in this thread and will trust them. It’s owned by 2 high school friends who went to votech school together, then worked as mechanics at the same Subaru dealer for 10 years, and then opened their own Subaru specific shop. This might be the best option and not that far away. I can always use the Subaru specific race tune shop as a backup if needed because they also do non-race repairs and maintenance.


The question was do we have the work at the dealer, the local mechanic, one of the local race tune shops I found with good feedback, or another shop? I will check out the Boxer Motor Works (https://salemsubarurepair.com/) mentioned above as well as the tune shops.

[kiwisimon]

Good luck and hopefully a planing and gasket is all you need. My Subie mechanic here in Japan says never touch the head unless it's shot. He did my timing chain, said the water pump was fine and nothing else needed work. That was three years ago and he was right. Dealers are over rated IMO.

[NYCfixie]

Car was diagnosed by the "trusted" Subaru specific shop.

$2600 for timing belt, tensioners, pulleys, guides, water pump, thermostat, and both head gaskets.
$1600 for dropped valve guides, coolant houses, other seals and gaskets (basically everything that should be replaced since they will have the short block open will be replaced). Some of this work goes out to a machine shop.

They said they would normally not suggest all this work to other customers but the car has never been crashed, has no rust (always garaged), and is clean inside (no kids), so they think it is worth doing knowing we probably do not want to purchase a new car now (we can easily afford it but do not use the car enough to have a monthly payment - or cash purchase - and pay increased insurance).

I am tempted to go forward since all this work is still less than the dealership would have charged and they were not going to include the valve work. This work should give us at least another 100k. Other than that, they suggested sway bars and bushings Front/Rear will need to be replaced in about a year (depending on miles) for about $750. Dealer wanted us to do this now.

Thoughts?

[cinema]

Car was diagnosed by the "trusted" Subaru specific shop.

$2600 for timing belt, tensioners, pulleys, guides, water pump, thermostat, and both head gaskets.
$1600 for dropped valve guides, coolant houses, other seals and gaskets (basically everything that should be replaced since they will have the short block open will be replaced). Some of this work goes out to a machine shop.

They said they would normally not suggest all this work to other customers but the car has never been crashed, has no rust (always garaged), and is clean inside (no kids), so they think it is worth doing knowing we probably do not want to purchase a new car now (we can easily afford it but do not use the car enough to have a monthly payment - or cash purchase - and pay increased insurance).

I am tempted to go forward since all this work is still less than the dealership would have charged and they were not going to include the valve work. This work should give us at least another 100k. Other than that, they suggested sway bars and bushings Front/Rear will need to be replaced in about a year (depending on miles) for about $750. Dealer wanted us to do this now.

Thoughts?

every single bushing? on a garaged car at 100k? or just sway bars? 750? either way i would run far away and never look back.

[p nut]

Is Subaru’s sway bar bushings much different than a Honda sedan or Toyota truck? Last time I changed sway bar bushing, it was $20 polyurethane bushings and about an hour to install. $750 sounds steep.

I still think it’s crazy to spend more money than the car’s worth on maintenance but that’s just me. And remember the 2nd 100k miles will have more upkeep than the first.

[Ralph]

Everything costs so much more in your part of the world I guess. And NY people make more. So not sure that what I might consider a fair amount to do same work is very relevant. But I can see that work costing close to those numbers around here in a good shop.

[NYCfixie]

every single bushing? on a garaged car at 100k? or just sway bars? 750? either way i would run far away and never look back.

Is Subaru’s sway bar bushings much different than a Honda sedan or Toyota truck? Last time I changed sway bar bushing, it was $20 polyurethane bushings and about an hour to install. $750 sounds steep.

I still think it’s crazy to spend more money than the car’s worth on maintenance but that’s just me. And remember the 2nd 100k miles will have more upkeep than the first.

bushings and sway bars front and rear = $750.

Garaged car used in NYC and Boston's very crappy roads.

[JAGI410]

You can buy aftermarket swaybars with quality bushings for much less. Even the factory ones are about $10/pair. Those prices are insane, and it's not that difficult to install.

Edit: Check this out https://parts.subarupartspros.com/v-2009-subaru-outback--2-5i-limited--2-5l-h4-gas/rear-suspension--stabilizer-bar-and-components

As for the engine work, it's a bit spendy as well, but that's still much cheaper than a new car. If the rest of it has good bones and you want to keep it for a few more years, go for it.

[p nut]

bushings and sway bars front and rear = $750.

Garaged car used in NYC and Boston's very crappy roads.

Are the stock sway bars rusted out? I could see replacing end links and bushings but at 100k miles, I’d be surprised if the sway bars themselves needed replacement.

[NYCfixie]

You can buy aftermarket swaybars with quality bushings for much less. Even the factory ones are about $10/pair. Those prices are insane, and it's not that difficult to install.

Edit: Check this out https://parts.subarupartspros.com/v-2009-subaru-outback--2-5i-limited--2-5l-h4-gas/rear-suspension--stabilizer-bar-and-components

As for the engine work, it's a bit spendy as well, but that's still much cheaper than a new car. If the rest of it has good bones and you want to keep it for a few more years, go for it.

The link you provided shows the sway bars and parts at about $100 per end.

[ridethecliche]

I'm sure the shop will appreciate your patronage of paying for totally unneeded maintenance items on that setup.

Give these guys a ring and ask for a quote for the HG job just for funzies.

https://www.facebook.com/CaiazziMotorSports/

[benb]

Yah the weird thing there is saying they *all* need to be replaced at once.

Normally (and I've lived in Boston/NH etc.. with all the bad weather and had non-garaged cars) you'd have one go south and get replaced, not a situation where you go in for something else and they tell you *all* of them are gone.

If they were all failed and you'd been driving around like that I think you'd know.

I will say I think the Outback "disguises" issues with tires & suspension though with it's giant suspension travel and use of the double wishbones, etc..

My previous cars were constantly telegraphing anything going on with tires/alignment/suspension as they wore the outback feels like it doesn't do that.

[JAGI410]

The link you provided shows the sway bars and parts at about $100 per end.

and labor is about as difficult as an old change. I'd be surprised if they charged over 1 hour to do both front and rear.

[weisan]

I am not a mechanic.

But I fixed my own cars...and every car in the family.

For the last 20 years.

This thread reminded me why I do that.

I will say no more.

[pdmtong]

Is Subaru’s sway bar bushings much different than a Honda sedan or Toyota truck? Last time I changed sway bar bushing, it was $20 polyurethane bushings and about an hour to install. $750 sounds steep.

I still think it’s crazy to spend more money than the car’s worth on maintenance but that’s just me. And remember the 2nd 100k miles will have more upkeep than the first.

I'm also in the "abandon ship" camp. If you spend the $4200 and another $2,000 incident occurs now you are into it for $6200. How does that feel? Or spending the $300 here and $300 there to fix old age issues. At some point you will say these are still small amounts and cheaper than a new car. But, it's death by a thousand cuts. And you are being offered the choice of an an early exit

[scoobydrew]

$750 for swaybar, bushing, and endlink replacement is steep IMO. As shown in JAGI410's link, you can get the front and rear replaced for about $200 in parts. With a lift, it shouldn't take more than 30 min per end. If you have the means, you can even do this work at home.

Did they point out why exactly those parts needed to be replaced? Were the endlinks (metal) or swaybar starting to rust through? I'd imagine the NE weather conditions does a number on the undercarriage, but at ~100k miles it seems a bit premature.

[ridethecliche]

$750 for swaybar, bushing, and endlink replacement is steep IMO. As shown in JAGI410's link, you can get the front and rear replaced for about $200 in parts. With a lift, it shouldn't take more than 30 min per end. If you have the means, you can even do this work at home.

Did they point out why exactly those parts needed to be replaced? Were the endlinks (metal) or swaybar starting to rust through? I'd imagine the NE weather conditions does a number on the undercarriage, but at ~100k miles it seems a bit premature.

NE conditions do in fact beat up on a car, but OP's car has been garaged and sparsely driven for the age. It's wayy too much work for that car. I'm shocked the valves need to be done too, it's such an unneeded expense.

[cinema]

shop is taking u for a ride. no further comment from me on this one. hope you get it sorted though they are good winter vehicles were i come from (Illinois)

[paredown]

NE conditions do in fact beat up on a car, but OP's car has been garaged and sparsely driven for the age. It's wayy too much work for that car. I'm shocked the valves need to be done too, it's such an unneeded expense.

From the OP's description this was a "while we are in there"--it sounds as though the head might be sent out for rebuild. If it were me doing this, I would think this is reasonable--you are then baselined and good for another 100k.

Suspension--I would get the new shop to look at it, and see what they say. At the mileage on the car, I'm surprised that everything would need doing (and I drive on unrepaired NY roads more or less as bad as MA/CT--how we get the highest taxes AND the worst roads is hard to understand.) For reference--our beater V70 needed a full front end rebuild @ around 150,000 miles and it had a hard life before we got it...

[NYCfixie]

The $4200 is money well spent (for us) for all the engine work. We can pay cash for a new car but would finance it to keep our money in investments. So like most, a new car would mean $400-$500 a month payments and increased insurance when compared to this older car that is paid for and insurance is cheap. Add in that we rarely use it and don't really care about cars, a new car does not actually make good financial sense in our current situation. If you consider the math, we can spend $4200 and break even at 10 months (actually sooner since our insurance does not go up). Doing the work now allows us to kick the can down the road for 10-12 months (and maybe even longer if we are lucky).

I apologize about the bushings and sway bars because I did not originally include all the information. I called back for clarification and they stated about $550 for the front bushings, sway bars, and ball joints. The rear sway bar and bushings are about $200 (so total is $750 for all suspension work). He stated on the first call that we could probably wait until at least next spring (based on how little we use the car) and I now realize I tuned out earlier when he said we could delay the work and missed the fact that he was including ball joints in his quote. I never asked the dealer how much they wanted to charge for all of this work but they were pushing me to do it ASAP. I know that this might now change people's opinions of getting ripped off at the Subaru specific shop and it might also just be the high cost of labor in the Northeast.

[.RJ]

I apologize about the bushings and sway bars because I did not originally include all the information. I called back for clarification and they stated about $550 for the front bushings, sway bars, and ball joints. The rear sway bar and bushings are about $200 (so total is $750 for all suspension work).

Those are expensive balljoints.

I'd also ask them really hard why they want to get into the valve guides. At 100k, what indication do they have they are worn or failed? Even if it is the seals, they are a couple bucks each and should be not much labor at all in the replacement. And what gaskets do they want to replace that arent part of the head gasket job?

I think they see a willingness to spend money here and are trying to take you for a ride.

[jtakeda]

The $4200 is money well spent (for us) for all the engine work. We can pay cash for a new car but would finance it to keep our money in investments. So like most, a new car would mean $400-$500 a month payments and increased insurance when compared to this older car that is paid for and insurance is cheap. Add in that we rarely use it and don't really care about cars, a new car does not actually make good financial sense in our current situation. If you consider the math, we can spend $4200 and break even at 10 months (actually sooner since our insurance does not go up). Doing the work now allows us to kick the can down the road for 10-12 months (and maybe even longer if we are lucky).

I apologize about the bushings and sway bars because I did not originally include all the information. I called back for clarification and they stated about $550 for the front bushings, sway bars, and ball joints. The rear sway bar and bushings are about $200 (so total is $750 for all suspension work). He stated on the first call that we could probably wait until at least next spring (based on how little we use the car) and I now realize I tuned out earlier when he said we could delay the work and missed the fact that he was including ball joints in his quote. I never asked the dealer how much they wanted to charge for all of this work but they were pushing me to do it ASAP. I know that this might now change people's opinions of getting ripped off at the Subaru specific shop and it might also just be the high cost of labor in the Northeast.

I dont think $550 is that crazy for bushings sway bars and ball joints assuming its includes parts and labor

Those are expensive balljoints.

I'd also ask them really hard why they want to get into the valve guides. At 100k, what indication do they have they are worn or failed? Even if it is the seals, they are a couple bucks each and should be not much labor at all in the replacement. And what gaskets do they want to replace that arent part of the head gasket job?

I think they see a willingness to spend money here and are trying to take you for a ride.

Im not sure about subarus but i did the Upper and lower ball joints on my 1st gen tacoma. They are notorious for failing so most people recommend OEM ball joints. They cost me about $220 for lowers and $100 for the uppers (just the parts)

$550 for parts and labor doesnt seem so steep to me

[pdmtong]

I forgot you said you dont use it much. Thats never the case here in CA.

Just spend the money to fix things that would be catastrophic if failed...the timing belt. let the other fixes ride until you really need to step up. since you dont drive much, so what if its not perfect.

[p nut]

Im not sure about subarus but i did the Upper and lower ball joints on my 1st gen tacoma. They are notorious for failing so most people recommend OEM ball joints. They cost me about $220 for lowers and $100 for the uppers (just the parts)

$550 for parts and labor doesnt seem so steep to me

You probably bought OEM or high quality aftermarket. I’m going to assume these Indy shops get $40 ball joints from their distributor. That said, $550 certainly isn’t out of line for all that.

Good luck nycfixie. Im sure it’ll serve you just fine after you get it all done.

[jtakeda]

You probably bought OEM or high quality aftermarket. I’m going to assume these Indy shops get $40 ball joints from their distributor. That said, $550 certainly isn’t out of line for all that.

Good luck nycfixie. Im sure it’ll serve you just fine after you get it all done.

Yeah I bought OEM and did the work myself. Didn’t realize aftermarket ball joints were that much cheaper. I didn’t even bother looking

[cmbicycles]

Those are expensive balljoints.



I'd also ask them really hard why they want to get into the valve guides. At 100k, what indication do they have they are worn or failed? Even if it is the seals, they are a couple bucks each and should be not much labor at all in the replacement. And what gaskets do they want to replace that arent part of the head gasket job?



I think they see a willingness to spend money here and are trying to take you for a ride.

When control arm bushings were going on my 02 Subaru, the local Subie guy recommended getting loaded control arms that have the bushings and ball joints already pressed in, saves time for him and therefore money for me. That doesnt seem out of line pricewise for ball joints.

Since the engine usually gets pulled for HG jobs on subarus, it makes sense to replace the rear main seal, and any other engine seals you have access to while the engine is out as preventative. The seals arent much $ nor is the extra labor once the engine is already out, but it does add some to the bill for the HGs.

Out of line price wise was the shop that quoted me over $900 to replace the battery and alternator on my Tundra when it died near the shop one day. Trying to find the part locally, I called a toyota dealer and they wanted $550 for just the remanufactured alternator, I didnt ask what they would charge for labor. Ended up taking about $250 in parts and a couple hours to leisurely swap parts at home.

[OtayBW]

Whatever the outcome, I'd have to say that ~$4-5K in multiple needed repairs by ~100K miles does not instill confidence in the manufacturer....

[NYCfixie]

Whatever the outcome, I'd have to say that ~$4-5K in multiple needed repairs by ~100K miles does not instill confidence in the manufacturer....

This is our second Subaru purchased new (2000, 2009) and it will be our last. The 2000 had the HG go at 87k and also needed about $4000 in repairs before we purchased the 2009. Every mechanic we have spoken with states that while Subaru has the best AWD system, the cars need significant repairs at about 100K (although they often last at least until 200k or more if you do the repairs).

Most of those same mechanics stated that Toyotas are simply the best built cars and often only need routine maintenance up through and often past 200k. As long as the RAV4 has an actual transmission (and not a CVT), that will most probably be our next car.

[benb]

We have had very few situations with enough snow the last 10 years for a Subaru's superior snow performance to matter IMO so I get the idea of wanting something else.

I've had a Rav 4 AWD rental that I drove through a snow storm since I've owned my Outback.. similar with CRVs, Ford Edge.

The Subaru AWD is hands down better.. but the others get the job done and there have probably been only 1-2 times I've driven through anything that might have gotten the others stuck.

The other thing though is Subarus are a bit more reasonably priced than Hondas and Toyotas, etc..

I hear that you're cool with $5k of repairs though. Realistically that is the sensible option vs the normal american behavior of constantly being in debt on new cars every 3-4 years they can't really afford. The stories lately of the average new car loan being $30k+ and stretching out to 7+ years is the height of silliness.

I think I want something else just from being bored. It's a boring car till the snow capabilities are needed. 100% practical tool and that's it.

My 2013 has been a rock though. Literally nothing wrong with it. I'm not particularly worried about head gaskets.. they seem to have finally kicked that when they ditched the "EJ" motor for good.

[NYCfixie]

I hear that you're cool with $5k of repairs though. Realistically that is the sensible option vs the normal american behavior of constantly being in debt on new cars every 3-4 years they can't really afford. The stories lately of the average new car loan being $30k+ and stretching out to 7+ years is the height of silliness.

I think I want something else just from being bored. It's a boring car till the snow capabilities are needed. 100% practical tool and that's it.




I don't care about cars and neither does my wife. We have essentially been driving the same type Subaru Outback Limited 4cyl for twenty years (2000 and current 2009). As I have shared in this and other posts, unless I get the holy grail 250 GT California Spyder SWB (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_250#250_GT_California_Spyder_SWB) a car is simply a tool to get from point A to point B.

And yes, unlike many people, we are financially responsible to a fault but it will allow us to retire much earlier then 99% of people our age.

[benb]

I don't care about cars and neither does my wife. We have essentially been driving the same type Subaru Outback Limited 4cyl for twenty years (2000 and current 2009). As I have shared in this and other posts, unless I get the holy grail 250 GT California Spyder SWB (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_250#250_GT_California_Spyder_SWB) a car is simply a tool to get from point A to point B.

And yes, unlike many people, we are financially responsible to a fault but it will allow us to retire much earlier then 99% of people our age.

Yah don't let people make you feel bad about it. We try to walk the same path.

There's a lot of peace to be had knowing saving like that leaves you able to weather the worst of storms.

[NYCfixie]

I had to be in the area today and I stopped by to talk with them in-person. I feel very confident that the work will be done correctly and that I am being charged a fair price (considering Northeast labor prices and when compared to what a Subaru dealership would charge). This shop is owned by two mechanics who spent 10 years at a local Subaru dealership so in essence I am getting the same Subaru specific labor and experience without the dealer mark-up.

They also showed me on the car the suspension work to be done.
- Front $550: sway bar, sway bar bushings, clamps, stabilizer end links, control arm bushings, and lower ball joints.

- Rear $200: sway bar, sway bar bushings, clamps, stabilizer end links.


It was disheartening to see the engine out and in pieces but they showed me the underside of the valve covers and they could not believe how clean they were. They literally said: "We thought you were exaggerating when you said you took such good care of the car but when we saw the outside, saw the inside, saw the lack of rust, took apart the engine, and reviewed the service records you shared with us, we knew you were different from most customers who claim they take care of their cars and why we suggested it was worth doing the work." And no, this was not a sales tactic as they have enough work and do not need my business.

[AngryScientist]

They literally said: "We thought you were exaggerating when you said you took such good care of the car but when we saw the outside, saw the inside, saw the lack of rust, took apart the engine, and reviewed the service records you shared with us, we knew you were different from most customers who claim they take care of their cars and why we suggested it was worth doing the work." And no, this was not a sales tactic as they have enough work and do not need my business.

haha!

better get home and take a shower pronto fixie. the subies weren't the only ones in the shop getting a lube job today!!

:hello::banana::hello:

[NYCfixie]

haha!

better get home and take a shower pronto fixie. the subies weren't the only ones in the shop getting a lube job today!!

:hello::banana::hello:

Every time I visit the dealer service department I feel like I am getting anally probed :mad: so this has been a walk in the park in comparison.

PM your email and I'll send you some pics (of the car) so you can judge for yourself.

Here's the thing, I do not have the room (apartment living), the skill, the patience, the time (pre and post C19), or the desire to do the work myself so like most people I need to find the best possible solution and in this case it is a Subaru specific repair shop that comes highly recommended.

[jh_on_the_cape]

I just read this entire thread. In December I bought a 2013 outback with 25k miles for less than $15k at the dealership after my Audi's electrical gremlins prevented passing inspection (lights were going crazy). I just rolled over 40k miles after driving all over the Rockies all summer going mountain biking.

Love the AWD. Seats are not the most comfortable.

Something people need to keep in mind is that MA has 6.25% sales tax on a car's value according to the government plus lots of other registration fees. Insurance is VERY expensive in Boston on a new car.

Hopefully it works out and you drive the car trouble free for many years. Keep us posted, please. In hindsight if it was the right choice... when this is all in the rear view mirror.

Any recommendations for independent Subaru mechanic on Cape Cod or South Coast/South Shore?

[MattTuck]

The other thing though is Subarus are a bit more reasonably priced than Hondas and Toyotas, etc..



This, in a single sentence, pretty much sums up my experience. We looked at Hondas and Toyotas when we bought our outback 3 years ago. First, nothing that was an Apples to Apples comparison, and Second, looking at thousands more dollars if we got the Toyota/Honda models that we were looking at.

They are more reliable, but more expensive, also. No free lunch.

[OtayBW]

This is our second Subaru purchased new (2000, 2009) and it will be our last. The 2000 had the HG go at 87k and also needed about $4000 in repairs before we purchased the 2009. Every mechanic we have spoken with states that while Subaru has the best AWD system, the cars need significant repairs at about 100K (although they often last at least until 200k or more if you do the repairs).

Most of those same mechanics stated that Toyotas are simply the best built cars and often only need routine maintenance up through and often past 200k. As long as the RAV4 has an actual transmission (and not a CVT), that will most probably be our next car.Well, that is not good. Still, GL with whatever you decide to do.

[C40_guy]

I just read this entire thread. In December I bought a 2013 outback with 25k miles for less than $15k at the dealership after my Audi's electrical gremlins prevented passing inspection (lights were going crazy).

Any recommendations for independent Subaru mechanic on Cape Cod or South Coast/South Shore?

So, did you sell the Q? Might be something as simple as an old/weak battery. Audis are finicky with regard to battery stability. We just replaced ours, turns out it was original to the vehicle (7 years old!)

Check with Yanis in Hyannis...good guy, knows his stuff inside/out, would be able to help you with the Audi if you still have it, and will take care of your Subaru...

[JAGI410]

Every mechanic we have spoken with states that while Subaru has the best AWD system, the cars need significant repairs at about 100K (although they often last at least until 200k or more if you do the repairs)..

My 2004 Subaru Forester XT (2.5 Turbo, Manual trans) has 159k on it. Stock headgaskets, stock turbo, stock clutch. The worst mechanical issue it's had was the driveshaft u-joint failing ($500). The brakes were replaced, the timing belt was changed, the oil gets changed every 4500 miles or so. It's been incredibly reliable. I drive like an ass too! It sees full boost nearly every time I drive it. I think some of the mechanics are pushing scare tactics to sell service.

I'd get another Subaru without hesitation if they still checked all my boxes, but their crappy CVT transmissions and no manual option will keep me from buying another one.

[NYCfixie]

Well, that is not good. Still, GL with whatever you decide to do.

It has been decided. Open Heart Surgery has begun (aka head gasket replacement).

https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/attachments/f32/116540d1598989502-vehicles-subaru-img_2250-jpg

[OtayBW]

It has been decided. Open Heart Surgery has begun (aka head gasket replacement).

https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/attachments/f32/116540d1598989502-vehicles-subaru-img_2250-jpgHAR! I hope the patient recovers and lives a long life! :hello:

[NYCfixie]

My 2004 Subaru Forester XT (2.5 Turbo, Manual trans) has 159k on it. Stock headgaskets, stock turbo, stock clutch. The worst mechanical issue it's had was the driveshaft u-joint failing ($500). The brakes were replaced, the timing belt was changed, the oil gets changed every 4500 miles or so. It's been incredibly reliable. I drive like an ass too! It sees full boost nearly every time I drive it. I think some of the mechanics are pushing scare tactics to sell service.

I'd get another Subaru without hesitation if they still checked all my boxes, but their crappy CVT transmissions and no manual option will keep me from buying another one.

What I have learned recently is that the Turbo engines, even though they are at higher compression, rarely suffer the same head gasket failure as do the naturally aspirated engines.

Apparently the Turbos use a different/better multi-plate metal head gasket whereas the non-turbo engines use a synthetic material head gasket. When they get replaced by dealerships they must use what Subaru specifies but most independent mechanics use the Subaru OEM turbo head gasket on non-turbo engines when they are replaced (or a high quality 3rd party metal mutli-plate head gasket) so they will hopefully not fail again. Another reason we chose an independent mechanic to do the work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZk3GQcp5Z4

[jh_on_the_cape]

Yes I sold the Q7, traded it in. The dashboard lights were all on. The moonroof had leaked for a long time onto the electronics in the trunk. That along with a poorly done job of wiring trailer lights had the rear lights on the fritz, along with most of the other electronics. Stereo. Backup cam. TPMS. Nav. I lived without most of it.
At close to 200k miles she still pulled strong but it was time. I paid $8k for that car with about 100k on it and did NOTHING but oil changes and tires. It had fresh pads when I bought it.
The battery tested good enough.

The Audi was so much nicer than the outback, but that's to be expected.

I bought a Subaru base model with no moonroof, no power seats, no nav, no backup camera. None of those creature comforts that break. I only miss climate control. A little bit. I don't miss the heated seats but I really miss the heated steering wheel.

With the money I saved I took the summer off and that was worth a million bucks.

Advencha before Demencha!

So, did you sell the Q? Might be something as simple as an old/weak battery. Audis are finicky with regard to battery stability. We just replaced ours, turns out it was original to the vehicle (7 years old!)

Check with Yanis in Hyannis...good guy, knows his stuff inside/out, would be able to help you with the Audi if you still have it, and will take care of your Subaru...

[cnighbor1]

I read from a shop in Seattle that no. cylinder to close to exhaust header
Causing head to wrap and allow coolant into oil
They added heat reflective material
And recommended an oil chance every 3000 miles in case water had got into the motor

0. https://www.cartersubarushoreline.com/service/information/learn-about-common-reasons-cars-overheat-in-stop-and-go-traffic-seattle-wa.htm
1. https://scoobyparts.com/blog/subaru-impreza-overheating/
2. https://barsleaks.com/cooling/subaru-2-5l-engines-known-cooling-problems/

[NYCfixie]

Most of those same mechanics stated that Toyotas are simply the best built cars and often only need routine maintenance up through and often past 200k...

Apparently Toyota now owns 20% of Subaru. I can only hope some of that Toyota Production System (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System) quality makes its way into Subaru build quality.

Subaru Officially Joins Toyota Group, What It Means For New Outback And Forester Models (https://www.torquenews.com/1084/subaru-officially-joins-toyota-group-what-it-means-new-outback-and-forester-models)

[.RJ]

Since the engine usually gets pulled for HG jobs on subarus, it makes sense to replace the rear main seal, and any other engine seals you have access to while the engine is out as preventative.

Sure but I dont see how that adds up to over $2k.

Either way it sounds like the OP is really taking care of the car, so it should give him another 10 years of service.

[ridethecliche]

From the OP's description this was a "while we are in there"--it sounds as though the head might be sent out for rebuild. If it were me doing this, I would think this is reasonable--you are then baselined and good for another 100k.

Suspension--I would get the new shop to look at it, and see what they say. At the mileage on the car, I'm surprised that everything would need doing (and I drive on unrepaired NY roads more or less as bad as MA/CT--how we get the highest taxes AND the worst roads is hard to understand.) For reference--our beater V70 needed a full front end rebuild @ around 150,000 miles and it had a hard life before we got it...


The head does not need a rebuild... If it's dropping valves then you have way bigger problems. Will the valve job help if things are fine? Sure, but this isn't a performance car. Why bother?

For HG, you check flatness and see if it needs to be decked at all. Often times the heads check out just fine.

When you go to overpriced motorsports shops you get charged for the expertise. Worth it for a modified wrx sure, but for an econobox.... No.

I'm friends with a bunch of people in mass that work in dealerships and flip these cars. They do HG all the time. The quotes I've seen for the work and the quotes I've seen them give customers for their side businesses, the link to one I posted above, is no where close to this.

I had my work done elsewhere, but I think I paid 1200 to have the HG done. I'm of the opinion that preventative HG work is a bit bizarre if you're not having any issues. The symptoms are pretty apparent. And it's not like it causes imminent failure in these cars.

It just blows me away how much money people are willing to throw at these older cars that aren't worth that much without shopping around much.

That said, many people on this forum are in a very different place in life that I am so I definitely understand paying for the convenience aspect of things.

My main point is that it's possible to do it cheaper, even in mass.

[benb]

Toyota's owned a piece of Subaru for a really long time, that's not anything new.

Subaru's lineage:

Aircraft Research Laboratory (1915)
Renamed to Nakajima Aircraft (made many famous WWII airplanes)
Renamed to Fuji Heavy Industries after the war
20% ownership by Nissan in 1968
20% ownership sold to GM in 1999 when Renault acquired Nissan
GM shares sold in 2005
Toyota buys 8.5% in 2005
Toyota buys more in 2008 to have 16.5%

Realistically I think what needs to make its way over from Toyota is some of the Direct Injection and efficiency tech. Boxers are at a disadvantage with some of this stuff but DI would help.

Let's keep in mind we're talking about a car that's over 10 years old. Subaru has grown a tremendous amount in the past 10 years... the average age of Subarus on the road is probably much much lower than other brands due to the extreme growth. Most of the newer cars don't have these Head Gasket issues, and they don't have rust issues but Subaru is still living with that bad reputation from 30-40 years ago so they still have a really long rust warranty.

CVT hate is a weird thing. It's totally irrational unless your specific instance of a CVT is blowing up. It's not as fun as a manual but it's way more elegant & efficient than these ridiculous 8-9-10-whatever automatic transimissions. There have been way more cars with awful automatic transmissions that failed and yet car guys have this massive FUD against CVT in favor of standard automatics. And standard automatics are super non-fun to drive. I'd much rather have a CVT in even a sporty car than an auto. (Preference still for manual for fun). CVTs don't do the stupidest things possible when you're hustling a car like autos so often seem to.

This is all just shuffling deck chairs though.. most of us are not going to have transmissions at all in the brave new world of cars.

[C40_guy]

This is all just shuffling deck chairs though.. most of us are not going to have transmissions at all in the brave new world of cars.

True. Electrons don't need no stinkin' transmissions.

Direct drive, baby!

Instant torque...

[Ralph]

A friend of mine is a service writer at a Honda dealership. He says they see fewer CVT problems than with regular automatics. He drives a supercharged Mustang, but bought his wife a Honda with CVT.

[NYCfixie]

A friend of mine is a service writer at a Honda dealership. He says they see fewer CVT problems than with regular automatics. He drives a supercharged Mustang, but bought his wife a Honda with CVT.

There are known reliability issues with CVTs. At a minimum, you can't have a sealed system and assume the oil inside will not break down over time and need replacement. With that said, most people do not keep cars long enough these days that they will ever encounter a failure due to this issue. I worry about people purchasing these as used high mileage cars because they will suffer the consequences of CVT failure and high cost repair/replacement. Most shops will not even repair CVTs.

I also find it stupid that manufacturers are now programming "virtual shift points" into CVT transmissions so customers think/feel they act like standard automatic transmissions. Unless it is an enthusiast driving a manual transmission car, who really cares about the "feel" of shift points?

[Ralph]

You can service a sealed CVT. BTW....CVT's use a different fluid than traditional automatic transmissions. You rarely see a CVT on a hi torque engine. Under 250 Ft lbs usually. I don't believe they are developed for beyond that yet. Ideal for non turbo 4 cylinder engines. Was surprised the new turbo Outback has a CVT.

BTW....I'm not a fan of CVT's. Don't like driving with one. Just talking about them RE their reliability and fixability. Another friend owns a transmission shop....and he says they are just transmissions. Says he can fix them no problem. Simpler than a traditional transmission. He likes to service them at or before 60,000 miles.

[benb]

The Subaru CVT can have its fluid changed at the dealer.

That’s just FUD.

I got the impression from reading Subaru forums 5-10 years ago that there were plenty of early CVT problems caused by mechanics and owners messing with the fluid when they didn’t know what they were doing actually.

edit:

Did the Math:

Subaru Sales 1968-2009: 5.1 million
Subaru Sales 2010-2019: 5.03 million

IIRC 2010 was the first year of the CVT in the Outback/Legacy and it showed up in the Forester a year or two later. They phased it out of the 6-cylinder versions a few years later.

Also the Normally aspirated 2.5L EJ motor was gone by 2013 IIRC. The normally aspirated EJ motor is 100% responsible for the Head Gasket issues. It was never an issue with the turbo boxers or the 6-cylinder boxers. They dumped that engine from the Forester in 2011 IIRC and 2013 in the Outback.

All this stuff is ancient history to the company.. issues fixed a long time ago and moved on from, exploding sales as a result. The vast majority of their customers have never owned a Subaru old enough to have an automatic transmission or an engine with a head gasket problem.

The only way the CVT can be horrific is if you believe conspiracy theories. Otherwise Subaru would had millions of failed CVTs by now that would have killed this sales momentum completely.

[ridethecliche]

The thing is that subaru's sell well because they're basic econoboxes with an awesome AWD system that hold their value pretty well.

My daily is an 06 Acura TL that's a hand me down. The motor is fine and I had some work done to it when I got it. I've spent an embarrassing amount of money on it for some stuff, but none of it is motor work, but I also didn't pay much if anything for the car.

For this car, sadly the big issue is that the auto trans is going to go at some point in the not too distant future. I'm going to have to source an accord trans for it or just be content with the fact that the car has lived a good life and trans work plus rust repair makes it a bit hard to justify keeping the car...

[NYCfixie]

Thought I would bring this one to a close.

Very happy with Boxer Motorworks (https://salemsubarurepair.com/) in Salem, MA based on a recommendation from a person in this thread. I would also recommend them to anyone in the greater Boston area who is fed up with dealerships and does not do the work themselves. They are about 45 minutes away from me (in pandemic traffic, not normal traffic) and it was well worth the trip. The owners Jay and Sergio could not have been nicer by putting my car on the rack and explaining to me all the work they wanted to do, communicating with me while they had the car, answering all of my questions even after I watched many YouTube videos about the work they were doing, and going through the bill line by line when I picked it up. They offered to put it back on the rack and show me everything but I turned them down because I trusted them.

Work performed:
-Head gaskets (and related gaskets and seals)
-timing belt, tensioners, pulleys, etc
-water pump, thermostat, radiator hoses, coolant pipe o-rings (and related gaskets and seals)
-oil pressure sender
-dropped valve guides, valve timing (and related gaskets and seals)
-spark plugs
-oil change
-coolant flush
-intake and exhaust gaskets
-front and rear sway bar bushings
-front and rear stabilizer control link and bar link
-control arm bushings

[ORMojo]

I am way late to this thread (just read the whole thing for the first time), and I am glad that the OP is satisfied with the outcome.

That said, here is what I would have suggested had I read this earlier. Call SOA (Subaru of America) and ask them to discount the dealer work. I'm on my 3rd Forester in a row (starting in 1994), and I've lost track of the times I have taken advantage of that, and SOA has always heavily discounted any significant work. Don't get me wrong - nothing super major has gone wrong with the vehicles (obviously, I've stuck with them), but a few issues have needed repair, and SOA has discounted every one of them. (The dealership themselves now verbally asks long-time customers if they have contacted SOA.)

SOA likes to keep long-time Subie owners (like me and the OP) happy (and seems to be especially willing to accommodate if there is even a hint of gasket problem involved!). To give a specific example, my most recent service need, at about 105k), involved rear diff & suspension. Vehicle was fully out of warranty. Dealership quote for everything involved was ~$2,600. SOA covered all but about $600. It only took one quick phone call by me, SOA then consulted with the dealer about my customer and maintenance history, and about 30 minutes later I got this result.

And, to be completely honest, I drive my cars pretty hard. I consider myself somewhat of an enthusiast. My first car at age 15 was a 1972 Mustang Fastback 351 Cleveland (less than 2 years old when I bought it); I completely stripped down and rebuilt my Volvo's engine on my own in my college co-op's living room over one winter break; I did the same to my Peugot engine in my garage after throwing a rod through the block while racing; I've owned a couple of Datsun Fairladies along the way . . . you get the idea. But while I still drive like that - full boost & near redline on the current turbo Forester - I don't do my own work any more.

So, just a thought to put in Subie owners' heads - before you give up on dealership work due to the higher cost, call SOA and see if they will help you out.

[NYCfixie]

...So, just a thought to put in Subie owners' heads - before you give up on dealership work due to the higher cost, call SOA and see if they will help you out.

I don't trust any dealers these days because the service writers/managers get paid on how much service work they "book" and some dealerships even pay their mechanics based on how quickly they can get the work done. Most standard jobs have a "shop rate" and if the mechanics come in under that, it is more profit for the dealership and more money for the mechanic.

Maybe you had good luck but SOA told my mother to eff-off when her 2001 Forester blew head gaskets just out of her 7yr/100k Subaru extended warranty.

SOA told me to eff-off when our plastic dashboard became sticky just outside of the recall window. When the recall originated we had it inspected by the dealer and they said it was fine (which it was at the time). About 12 months later it became sticky and the dealer said too bad and SOA said eff-off.

Moral of my story, as a two-time Subaru Outback owner, this will be out last. We spent the money on the '09 now because for non-financial reason we do not want any new car but in a few years we will be purchasing a non-CVT transmission Toyota.

As far as I am concerned, Subaru Corporate, Subaru of America, and Fuji Heavy Industries can all eff-off.

[CAAD]

A little late here but never go to a dealer and tell them you need a specific part replaced after you did research. All they need to know is there is an unknown issue, tell them the car is acting up and diagnose it. If you roll in saying you need head gaskets, well then you will most certainly get head gaskets.

[ORMojo]

OK, we clearly have had different experiences. I've worked with the same dealer for 25+ years, and one independent mech for several years before that (before being a Subie owner) until he moved, and have never felt mistreated by either the dealer or SOA.

[NYCfixie]

OK, we clearly have had different experiences. I've worked with the same dealer for 25+ years, and one independent mech for several years before that (before being a Subie owner) until he moved, and have never felt mistreated by either the dealer or SOA.

We have worked with 5 dealers over 20 years for our 2000 and 2009 Outbacks (both purchased new). This was truly the first time in 20 years one of our Outbacks was not serviced by a dealer.

For the 2000:
- Car was purchased from and initially serviced by a dealer outside of NYC (still in New York) and was great until they combined the Subaru service shop into the larger Ford service shop. Then they sucked.
- Next it was serviced by a dealer in Northern NJ (but even closer to NYC) that was great until the Service Manger was told he had no choice and had to go work for the Porsche/Audi service center (of the same dealership group) because he had such high customer service ratings. Then they sucked.
- Traded-in when 2009 was purchased.

For the 2009:
- Car was purchased and initially serviced in Southern NJ (about 90 minutes from NYC) by a long time family owned Subaru dealer (they did not own any other dealerships). It was also the place my mother purchased her 2001 Forester. We used the same salesperson and the repair shop knew that both my mother and we serviced our cars with them. They were great until they sold their dealership to a larger group. Then they sucked.
- Car was then serviced at a dealership in Western NJ (about 90 minutes from NYC). Service was fine until dealership was sold to a larger dealership group. Then they sucked.
- Car has been serviced at a dealer in the greater Boston area for about 5 years. They had the best ratings in the area. Refused to do airbag recall for months and then we found a dealer farther north of the city who could do it within 2 weeks. After the local to us dealer refused to do the airbag recall in a timely manner, they also started pushing unnecessary service on us or tried to do services earlier than needed so we got fed-up and started looking elsewhere when we knew we needed to deal with the head gaskets.

I keep very detailed records (that would impress an accountant) yet SOA could have cared less about the dashboard issue mentioned earlier even though I had all that documentation to provide.

And if you noticed a theme with dealerships, that is not solely a Subaru issue, is that when dealerships are purchased by larger dealership groups often service goes down so profits can go up.

And I forgot to add, my wife and I are only going to lease Toyotas in the future as it solves two problems: cars that are well built and need little work beyond routine maintenance and we will not have cars long enough to deal with longer term issues. A car is a tool so no reason to own a depreciating asset. I'm just sorry it took me this long to figure that out for myself when in all other areas of our life my wife and I have made very smart financial decisions.

[gemship]

Thought I would bring this one to a close.

Very happy with Boxer Motorworks (https://salemsubarurepair.com/) in Salem, MA based on a recommendation from a person in this thread. I would also recommend them to anyone in the greater Boston area who is fed up with dealerships and does not do the work themselves. They are about 45 minutes away from me (in pandemic traffic, not normal traffic) and it was well worth the trip. The owners Jay and Sergio could not have been nicer by putting my car on the rack and explaining to me all the work they wanted to do, communicating with me while they had the car, answering all of my questions even after I watched many YouTube videos about the work they were doing, and going through the bill line by line when I picked it up. They offered to put it back on the rack and show me everything but I turned them down because I trusted them.

Work performed:
-Head gaskets (and related gaskets and seals)
-timing belt, tensioners, pulleys, etc
-water pump, thermostat, radiator hoses, coolant pipe o-rings (and related gaskets and seals)
-oil pressure sender
-dropped valve guides, valve timing (and related gaskets and seals)
-spark plugs
-oil change
-coolant flush
-intake and exhaust gaskets
-front and rear sway bar bushings
-front and rear stabilizer control link and bar link
-control arm bushings

Hi NYCfixie, I'm glad I could contribute something helpful to you or someone on this forum although it has nothing to do with bicycles. I did follow the thread since that posting and a couple things I will say is it's been so long since I been to Boxer Motorworx, well I think I got the name of the shop wrong and called it Boxer Subaru and I forgot the names of the two mechanic/owners as I only dealt with them the one time I brought my car in for service. That should say something positive toward their ability to diagnose and repair a Subaru. They're not cheap but they know their stuff if your lucky enough to live in the area and you have an old Subaru. So good for you to do you own looking into it with my tip and deciding to have those guys do the repair/servicing on your car.

As far as leasing Toyotas in the future, well that sounds just fine and dandy. If it fits your budget then why not? However don't be too hard on yourself with having to give the ole Outback it's triple bypass cause she's worth it in terms of practical use. The thing with the Toyota's is they are not cheap on the up front cost of ownership and they do have their fair share of recalls from time to time but I know leasing new covers that. It's just not cheap and not without it's limitations within a leasing agreement. Actually pick any car dealer they would prefer the customer to lease a car rather than buy one and thats the truth. Why is that?...well they want your repeat business. Just remember though your still making a car payment.

One more thing I will add getting back to reading some of the critical comments regarding Subaru's and expensive professional repair on yours. I mean ouch from our forum resident/moderator Angry with that lube and hosing comment. I think that was a bit uncalled for but you took it in jest and really I don't care it's not like I bleed the brand, I get it.... I'll just say people on here will whine about you spending money to fix your car but they think it's ok to keep adding to a stable of expensive bicycles and whatever it takes to keep them going strong on the side of crappy public roads dealing with whatever comes their way from the sides, in front but scarily also from behind. How does that make sense? Well it does if you actually have to get to work on that bicycle like I gotta work out of my car but other than that I would rather ride off road, much safer and more enjoyable, peaceful but that's just me.