Campagnolo Ekar 13 speed

[Veloo]

https://cyclingtips.com/2020/08/patent-filing-reveals-details-of-campagnolos-new-ekar-13-speed-cassettes/

[Dave]

The person who wrote the article needs some math lessons. All of the range values are wrong. A 10-50 is 500%. Apparently, they figured 50-10=40 to come up with 400%. No clue how a 9-36 is 300%.

[Coffee Rider]

The person who wrote the article needs some math lessons. All of the range values are wrong. A 10-50 is 500%. Apparently, they figured 50-10=40 to come up with 400%. No clue how a 9-36 is 300%.

I was already lost at 9 tooth cog. At least they are not a tech company and making my current cassette unusable after the update. I realize I'm an old fart with not being into 1x drivetrains.

[tomato coupe]

The person who wrote the article needs some math lessons. All of the range values are wrong.

The math is fine.

[tuscanyswe]

I know of someone who is getting a bike delivered with this early sept. Was also surprised when i heard it (today actually).

[Dave]

The math is fine.

Meaningless unless you show your work.

[marciero]

The person who wrote the article needs some math lessons. All of the range values are wrong. A 10-50 is 500%. Apparently, they figured 50-10=40 to come up with 400%. No clue how a 9-36 is 300%.

I didnt check, but it has to be the gear ratio range, not the number of teeth. That would be the most meaningful.

[buddybikes]

Wonder if Alan Coté is legacy of the Cote cycling family of Fitchburg. Joe? forgot his first name was a 50's racer, cool ole dood in the 70's/80s.

[e-RICHIE]

Wonder if Alan Coté is legacy of the Cote cycling family of Fitchburg. Joe? forgot his first name was a 50's racer, cool ole dood in the 70's/80s.

son of joe

[Dave]

I didnt check, but it has to be the gear ratio range, not the number of teeth. That would be the most meaningful.

With 1x the chainring size is fixed, so it has no effect on range. If you have 2x, then the cassette range and crank range are multiplied.

As an example, my 10-36 cassette has a range 36/10 = 3.6

With my 48/32 crank, it's range is 1.5. 1.5 x 3.6= 5.4 , so the total range is 540%.

Sram normally uses this cassette with a 43/30, with a range of 43/30 = 1.43.

1.43 x 3.6 = 5.16 or 516%, which is exactly what sram advertises.

Shimano does the same. https://bike.shimano.com/ko-KR/information/news/shimano-xtr-10-51-cassette--the-best-wide-range--mountain-bike-c.html

Here's another example, with the new 10-52 SRAM cassette. 520% range.
https://www.sram.com/en/sram/models/cs-xg-1275-b1

[yinzerniner]

With 1x the chainring size is fixed, so it has no effect on range. If you have 2x, then the cassette range and crank range are multiplied.

As an example, my 10-36 cassette has a range 36/10 = 3.6

With my 48/32 crank, it's range is 1.5. 1.5 x 3.6= 5.4 , so the total range is 540%.

Sram normally uses this cassette with a 43/30, with a range of 43/30 = 1.43.

1.43 x 3.6 = 5.16 or 516%, which is exactly what sram advertises.

Here's another example, with the new 10-52 SRAM cassette. 520% range.
https://www.sram.com/en/sram/models/cs-xg-1275-b1

Yeah, the “range” stated in the CT article is not the common understanding of largest divided by smallest gear ratio, but rather the total gain of the ratios.

Explained by the great sheldon brown :

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/percentage.html

Kind of makes sense when the Ekar system is trying to tout the 13sp system for smoother transitions between cogs rather than just an arbitrary one more tooth system. Also makes sense as opposed to the “more 1 tooth steps” marketing of AXS, as teeth counts don’t matter more than ratio jumps in terms of smoothness and cadence.

[Dave]

If you go to a speed calculator program with a fixed pedaling speed, the speed produced with a 10T sprocket it will be 5 times the speed produced with the 50T sprocket.

https://wabicycles.com/pages/speed-calculator

[OtayBW]

Yeah, the “range” stated in the CT article is not the common understanding of largest divided by smallest gear ratio, but rather the total gain of the ratios.

Explained by the great sheldon brown :

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/percentage.html

Kind of makes sense when the Ekar system is trying to tout the 13sp system for smoother transitions between cogs rather than just an arbitrary one more tooth system. Also makes sense as opposed to the “more 1 tooth steps” marketing of AXS, as teeth counts don’t matter more than ratio jumps in terms of smoothness and cadence.That's how I view it as well. For two adjacent gears - or for the entire range of the cogset - it's the percentage increase of the higher gear over the lower of the two. It works out the same whether you're doing it with no. of teeth percentage difference, or gear-inch percentage difference. I get the same numbers as the Campy patent data in the article....unless I'm missing something...

[FlashUNC]

The person who wrote the article needs some math lessons. All of the range values are wrong. A 10-50 is 500%. Apparently, they figured 50-10=40 to come up with 400%. No clue how a 9-36 is 300%.

Simple formula for measuring percentage change: New number minus old number divided by old number.

All the math checks out on my end.

Here's a YouTube video about it: https://youtu.be/v_wqykVJ0js

[Mark McM]

The person who wrote the article needs some math lessons. All of the range values are wrong. A 10-50 is 500%. Apparently, they figured 50-10=40 to come up with 400%. No clue how a 9-36 is 300%.

The numbers are right, the author just used the wrong verbage. For a 10-50 the gear ratio with the the 10 tooth sprocket is 400% higher than with the 50 tooth sprocket, for the 9-36, the gear in the 9 tooth sprocket is 300% higher than in the 36 tooth sprocket. In other words, rather than describing the entire range of ratios, he is describing how much higher the high gear is with respect to the low gear.

In a way, this makes sense. When you shift from the 16 tooth sprocket to the 15 tooth sprocket, do think in terms of the gear being 6.67% higher, or do think in terms of the ratio in the 15 being 106.67% of the ratio in the 16?

[AngryScientist]

perhaps i missed it. does ekar stand for something? does it mean something?

[vespasianus]

perhaps i missed it. does ekar stand for something? does it mean something?


Well an Eskar is a long ridge of sand or gravel.

[thirdgenbird]

perhaps i missed it. does ekar stand for something? does it mean something?

Cima Ekar

It’s a mountain ridge near Campagnolo headquarters.

[Velocipede]

Cima Ekar

It’s a mountain ridge near Campagnolo headquarters.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cima_Ekar_Observing_Station

Not confirming or denying anything about what's been posted. But I did find that link. Place looks cool.

[OtayBW]

Well an Eskar is a long ridge of sand or gravel.It's actually a relict glacial feature formed from 'snakelike' meltwater rivulets generally at the base of a glacier which fill with the stratified sand and gravel and persist as sinuous ridges after the glacier recedes.
I'll stop talking now.....:rolleyes:

[happycampyer]

I wonder if there is any etymological connection between Ekar in Italian and esker (also eskar, eschar, etc.) which according to Wikipedia is derived from the Irish word eiscir (Old Irish: escir), which means "ridge or elevation, especially one separating two plains or depressed surfaces." The Wikipedia description is pretty fascinating, and the term is perfect for a gravel groupset:

Most eskers are argued to have formed within ice-walled tunnels by streams that flowed within and under glaciers. They tended to form around the time of the glacial maximum, when the glacier was slow and sluggish. After the retaining ice walls melted away, stream deposits remained as long winding ridges. Water can flow uphill if it is under pressure in an enclosed pipe, such as a natural tunnel in ice.

Eskers may also form above glaciers by accumulation of sediment in supraglacial channels, in crevasses, in linear zones between stagnant blocks, or in narrow embayments at glacier margins. Eskers form near the terminal zone of glaciers, where the ice is not moving as fast and is relatively thin.

Plastic flow and melting of the basal ice determines the size and shape of the subglacial tunnel. This in turn determines the shape, composition and structure of an esker. Eskers may exist as a single channel, or may be part of a branching system with tributary eskers. They are not often found as continuous ridges, but have gaps that separate the winding segments. The ridge crests of eskers are not usually level for very long, and are generally knobby. Eskers may be broad-crested or sharp-crested with steep sides. They can reach hundreds of kilometers in length and are generally 20–30 metres in height.

The path of an esker is governed by its water pressure in relation to the overlying ice. Generally, the pressure of the ice was at such a point that it would allow eskers to run in the direction of glacial flow, but force them into the lowest possible points such as valleys or river beds, which may deviate from the direct path of the glacier. This process is what produces the wide eskers upon which roads and highways can be built. Less pressure, occurring in areas closer to the glacial maximum, can cause ice to melt over the stream flow and create steep-walled, sharply-arched tunnels.

The concentration of rock debris in the ice and the rate at which sediment is delivered to the tunnel by melting and from upstream transport determines the amount of sediment in an esker. The sediment generally consists of coarse-grained, water-laid sand and gravel, although gravelly loam may be found where the rock debris is rich in clay. This sediment is stratified and sorted, and usually consists of pebble/cobble-sized material with occasional boulders. Bedding may be irregular but is almost always present, and cross-bedding is common.

Pretty cool, and much easier to understand that the sliceness of knots.

[Velocipede]

It's actually a relict glacial feature formed from 'snakelike' meltwater rivulets generally at the base of a glacier which fill with the stratified sand and gravel and persist as sinuous ridges after the glacier recedes.
I'll stop talking now.....:rolleyes:

I wonder if there is any etymological connection between Ekar in Italian and esker (also eskar, eschar, etc.) which according to Wikipedia is derived from the Irish word eiscir (Old Irish: escir), which means "ridge or elevation, especially one separating two plains or depressed surfaces." The Wikipedia description is pretty fascinating, and the term is perfect for a gravel groupset:



Pretty cool, and much easier to understand that the sliceness of knots.

Overthinking it.

[marciero]

With 1x the chainring size is fixed, so it has no effect on range. If you have 2x, then the cassette range and crank range are multiplied.



Of course. As I said I didnt check, nor did I carefully read Dave;s post.

One thing the article brings to light that I've mentioned before; most recently in post 44 of this thread (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=244474&highlight=9-tooth&page=3) a while back is just how large the increases in ratio between gears get as the cogs get smaller, even with one-tooth increments. (Also note that I was considering % reduction rather than increase so as to give an indication of how much harder the gear would be.

[OtayBW]

Overthinking it.Given the proclivity for some light-hearted topic drift, I'm commenting on Esker, not Ekar, but thanks anyway.

[OtayBW]

I wonder if there is any etymological connection between Ekar in Italian and esker (also eskar, eschar, etc.) which according to Wikipedia is derived from the Irish word eiscir (Old Irish: escir), which means "ridge or elevation, especially one separating two plains or depressed surfaces."No doubt this is related.