What-a-ya think about the brochure??? (caution, Serotta content)

[laupsi]

Received another email notice from Serotta that things are still on, only this time w/pricing, pics, general info on tube set etc... Much of it a regurgitation from of Serotta’s storied history, but it appears things are moving forward.

[jpw]

It needs to be a 'lookbook' and not a brochure.

[charliedid]

Received another email notice from Serotta that things are still on, only this time w/pricing, pics, general info on tube set etc... Much of it a regurgitation from of Serotta’s storied history, but it appears things are moving forward.

Can we see it?

[jpw]

Can we see it?

https://serotta.com/prologue

[ERK55]

OK, so they are offering a limited release “Prologue Edition”, to the first 100 responders, guaranteed to never be released again. But what do get in one of the first one hundred that you wouldn’t get in a subsequent frame??
(Presuming they sell out of those first one hundred).

[reuben]

I find it interesting that the full page video at https://serotta.com/ shows paved roads, gravel roads, cars, and zero bicycles.

Things that make ya go, "Hmmm..."

[Monsieur Toast]

Spoiler Alert: "Complete bicycles starting at $8,500 / $8,900" with no configuration details.

[adrien]

Meh. Not sure I get it.

When I started everyone seemed to have a Serotta. Clearly the go-to bike for a certain set, and I told myself "one day".

That was a long time ago. My career has been kind to me, though not without challenges. I have nice hand-made bikes. And I'm in the market for something more adventure-y.

And these have no real appeal. How is this the place to go instead of a Firefly, no 22, etc.?

[jkbrwn]

They look very generic. No doubt that they'll sell all 100 of them, but not even having a headtube badge but instead a laser etched S? Meh. External cables look gross, too.

[Waldo62]

Meh, I'll hold my breath for a rim brakes version.

[charliedid]

They look very generic. No doubt that they'll sell all 100 of them, but not even having a headtube badge but instead a laser etched S? Meh. External cables look gross, too.

You were expecting a third wheel and a motor? Maybe a curvy fork and chainstays made out of a military grade polymer weave?

[charliedid]

Meh, I'll hold my breath for a rim brakes version.

Let us know how that goes :-)

[charliedid]

https://serotta.com/prologue

ty

[jkbrwn]

You were expecting a third wheel and a motor? Maybe a curvy fork and chainstays made out of a military grade polymer weave?

Maybe!

No in all seriousness, look at what Mosaic, No. 22, Firefly, Moots etc are doing with Ti frames at the moment. Solely based on appearances, these are quite drab. A stark comparison to Serotta's of old. I think for a frame manufacturer that had some really quite bold paint schemes that still look fantastic 30 years on, they're simply boring. Very, very boring.

[charliedid]

Maybe!

No in all seriousness, look at what Mosaic, No. 22, Firefly, Moots etc are doing with Ti frames at the moment. Solely based on appearances, these are quite drab. A stark comparison to Serotta's of old. I think for a frame manufacturer that had some really quite bold paint schemes that still look fantastic 30 years on, they're simply boring. Very, very boring.

Well are these not simply modern Ti bikes....made by No22?

[jkbrwn]

Well are these not simply modern Ti bikes....made by No22?

I have no idea who is building them.

P.S. you know this is just my opinion, right? Like I say, I'm sure they'll ride nicely, I'm sure they'll sell out fast - but they're just dull to look at. Perhaps they're offering paint and anodizing and whatnot, but I'd have thought you'd put your best foot forwards when creating a brochure to try and sell your products. It's a crowded marketplace nowadays, after all.

[charliedid]

I have no idea who is building them.

P.S. you know this is just my opinion, right? Like I say, I'm sure they'll ride nicely, I'm sure they'll sell out fast - but they're just dull to look at. Perhaps they're offering paint and anodizing and whatnot, but I'd have thought you'd put your best foot forwards when creating a brochure to try and sell your products. It's a crowded marketplace nowadays, after all.

Sorry...no offense meant :banana::p:):hello::rolleyes::eek:

[jkbrwn]

Likewise :banana: *heads over to Friday positivity thread*

[mcteague]

I can already hear the rear brake cable rattling against the down tube. :D

Tim

[oldpotatoe]

Sounds like he's looking for $ up front to finance these things before he goes forward. Pretty gutsy, considering the economy, and the very 'diverse' titanium market now...IMHO.

[Tz779]

wow. you guys are harsh.
sure seems like a lot of ppl want to see Ben fail.
i wonder how many would say the same thing if Aston Martin rose from the ashes to make the DB2 again.
if you want a flashy paint job and graphics, i bet Walmart has some.

[oldpotatoe]

wow. you guys are harsh.
sure seems like a lot of ppl want to see Ben fail.
i wonder how many would say the same thing if Aston Martin rose from the ashes to make the DB2 again.
if you want a flashy paint job and graphics, i bet Walmart has some.

Ah, so Ben is making vintage, throwback, yesteryear bikes? Ah no.
Aston Martin, unlike Serotta, is well placed in the 21st century. As for 'flashy paint jobs'..few if any ti makers do that..:)

[duke]

I would guess they are really nice bikes. Ben knows how to design and build bikes. Good luck to him.

[pdmtong]

So, let's flip this around.

What can Ben do to differentiate himself in an over-crowded ti-frame market?

At NAHBS Sacramento years ago (not the last time, the time prior to that there were 20+ ti builders. So choose based on aesthetic and dropout design? Head spinning choices.

At NAHBS Sacramento the last time now we have a beauty contest based on paint to differentiate the ti builders.

Assuming the fabrication is competitive he's going to be differentiated based on aspects like his name and price and process (how easy it will be to work with him, delivery times, etc.) Very tough market conditions to try to sell frame #1 in.

[David Kirk]

Does anyone know for sure who is building the bikes?

dave

[johnmdesigner]

Nothing uglier than the Moots logo. Every frame I have ever seen the damm thing is flaking off.
I think it's a nice looking frame but it is spoiled by the disc brake cable. That detail is just horrible.

[Monsieur Toast]

I cannot unsee the rear brake cabling. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

[dgauthier]

Entrepreneurs always have to have the balls to weather the nay sayers.

Maybe it's because when I got into "serious" cycling ti was the be-all end-all material for bicycle frames. Maybe it's because I've never ridden a carbon bike I've liked more than metal. Whatever the reason, a ti frame will always be the pinnacle of bicycle building to me.

For me a bicycle's a tool, so the "only 100 will be built" exclusivity stuff doesn't move me. But with Ben's knowledge of fit and frame design I'd say it's a bit too early to write Ben off just yet.

[charliedid]

Does anyone know for sure who is building the bikes?

dave

Dave

As per my comment I thought the folks at No22 were building them. I can't find the source of where I read that...hence I qualified my comment with a ?

Though I'm guessing you got that.

[PaMtbRider]

In an earlier thread someone from 22 replied that they have nothing to do with these bikes


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[charliedid]

In an earlier thread someone from 22 replied that they have nothing to do with these bikes


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Thanks for clearing that...

[nmrt]

+1.
Cannot find the thread, but it is on PL somewhere. Bryce or Mike from No.22 said that they were most definitely NOT making these Serotta bikes.

[SoCalSteve]

I cannot unsee the rear brake cabling. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

I cannot imagine anyone spending that much money on a bike and have the cabling exposed. Is that lesson 101 of modern bike building?

[SPOKE]

Based upon the tube shapes shown in the brochure it looks a hydroforming process is used at least on a few of the tubes. Pretty trick process. Not sure if it’s more or less expensive than the old butting process that was setup at the old shop. I’d really like to see one up close. My guess is the frames (or tubes) are sourced from a highly technical Taiwan operation.
Cheers....SPOKE

[FlashUNC]

I....don't get it. But hope this re-re-re-relaunch works out.

I'd say he still desperately needs better marketing advice.

[terry]

I have no interest in a disk brake bike but I do wish Ben all the success he deserves. I’m ignorant on this issue but can anybody list the number of national champions & Tour de France bikes Mosaic/moots/22/firefly have produced? Thanks.

[charliedid]

Based upon the tube shapes shown in the brochure it looks a hydroforming process is used at least on a few of the tubes. Pretty trick process. Not sure if it’s more or less expensive than the old butting process that was setup at the old shop. I’d really like to see one up close. My guess is the frames (or tubes) are sourced from a highly technical Taiwan operation.
Cheers....SPOKE

I believe you are right. Most articles have mentioned Taiwan as the source of production of tubes and forks with East Coast final production.

At least we know the general vicinity!

[pdmtong]

I have no interest in a disk brake bike but I do wish Ben all the success he deserves. I’m ignorant on this issue but can anybody list the number of national champions & Tour de France bikes Mosaic/moots/22/firefly have produced? Thanks.

of course the number is zero but what does it matter? ben's wins were from an era that no longer exists in a field of elite builders that was much much smaller.

this is not to say he can't build a great bike but more to say that there are many others who now can too.

[FlashUNC]

I have no interest in a disk brake bike but I do wish Ben all the success he deserves. I’m ignorant on this issue but can anybody list the number of national champions & Tour de France bikes Mosaic/moots/22/firefly have produced? Thanks.

The more apt comparison might be how many major gravel races they've won.

A 30 year old palmares on the road doesn't exactly carry cachet with the gravel crowd.

Again, he needs better marketing advice.

[Hilltopperny]

Not sure why they went with an externally routed line under the down tube like that. It makes an otherwise nice looking frame looks kind of silly by today’s standards.

People paying a premium for a bike will likely want a clean looking set up and that just isn’t clean.


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[rallizes]

+1.
Cannot find the thread, but it is on PL somewhere. Bryce or Mike from No.22 said that they were most definitely NOT making these Serotta bikes.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=247479&highlight=No.22&page=8

see post #109

"I'm late to this thread, but just to chime in from No. 22: we have no involvement in this project at all. The only bikes that roll out of our doors are our own, and we have no plans (or frankly, excess capacity!) to build for other titanium brands.

Sorry to disappoint! "

- 22Mike

[saab2000]

I can already hear the rear brake cable rattling against the down tube. :D

Tim

I don’t love the look but I do love the simplicity. My Zanconato is similarly built and there’s no rattling.

These look like nice bikes but I’m probably not a potential customer. And that’s what he needs.

[54ny77]

the real magic of the serotta brand was the actual people doing the fabrication, the finishing, the painting. speaking as a serotta owner, i'm blown away at the craftsmanship of what i'm fortunate to own. it's top notch.

unfortunately for the brand, them fine folks have long left the building. and now they're doing amazing things elsewhere. that's where i'd go for a new rig of a similar genre.

that external cabling thing...schlocky. oh well.

[happycampyer]

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=247479&highlight=No.22&page=8

see post #109That was a very polite reply from Mike at No. 22. Given the terms on which the team from Serotta/Saratoga Frameworks parted, I would be shocked (no pun intended) that they would be willing to build anything for Ben.

The things that set a Legend apart from other ti bikes are all of the refined processes (butting, swaging, complex machining, etc.). Serotta has been vindicated in that virtually all of those refinements can be found in one builder’s bikes or another—but there is no builder that has combined all of the refinements of a Legend in a single frame.

These frames seem to be in a similar boat. Perhaps they are as close as one is going to get to a modern-day Legend, but the rear triangle looks fairly generic, and probably needs to be to deal with disc brake forces. The swaging on the downtubes has the “baseball” effect of early Legends/Ottrotts. Perhaps the shaping is done by a different process, and the gradual taper isn’t as easy to achieve(?).

The external rear brake cable is a deal-breaker for me. I recall Serotta having concerns about holes for internal cable routing with the triple-butted tubes bitd, and I hope they can figure this out with their current tubesets. From what I have heard, companies like Moots and Seven were losing sales to boutique builders who offered options like anodization, internal cable routing, etc., and they finally got on the bandwagon (or at least partially).

A limited run of 100 bikes makes no sense to me, either. Frankly, these look like advanced prototypes to me, and I’d hope that the second 100 are better than the first.

I own an embarrassing number of Serottas, and I have a lot of respect for what Ben has created in the past. Sadly, these bikes don’t excite me, and the puffery of his sales literature is tiresome. I wish Ben every success, but if this is what the first 100 bikes look like, I’ll wait for the next batch.

[jpw]

Something tells me he's reading this thread with interest, and taking notes. If he is then he has a chance.

[laupsi]

That was a very polite reply from Mike at No. 22. Given the terms on which the team from Serotta/Saratoga Frameworks parted, I would be shocked (no pun intended) that they would be willing to build anything for Ben.

The things that set a Legend apart from other ti bikes are all of the refined processes (butting, swaging, complex machining, etc.). Serotta has been vindicated in that virtually all of those refinements can be found in one builder’s bikes or another—but there is no builder that has combined all of the refinements of a Legend in a single frame.

These frames seem to be in a similar boat. Perhaps they are as close as one is going to get to a modern-day Legend, but the rear triangle looks fairly generic, and probably needs to be to deal with disc brake forces. The swaging on the downtubes has the “baseball” effect of early Legends/Ottrotts. Perhaps the shaping is done by a different process, and the gradual taper isn’t as easy to achieve(?).

The external rear brake cable is a deal-breaker for me. I recall Serotta having concerns about holes for internal cable routing with the triple-butted tubes bitd, and I hope they can figure this out with their current tubesets. From what I have heard, companies like Moots and Seven were losing sales to boutique builders who offered options like anodization, internal cable routing, etc., and they finally got on the bandwagon (or at least partially).

A limited run of 100 bikes makes no sense to me, either. Frankly, these look like advanced prototypes to me, and I’d hope that the second 100 are better than the first.

I own an embarrassing number of Serottas, and I have a lot of respect for what Ben has created in the past. Sadly, these bikes don’t excite me, and the puffery of his sales literature is tiresome. I wish Ben every success, but if this is what the first 100 bikes look like, I’ll wait for the next batch.

Bill, from someone who knows a thing or two about Serotta’s success over the years, to someone who fully understands the reasons for that success, thanks for the post. Very informative as usual.

[DHallerman]

Something tells me he's reading this thread with interest, and taking notes. If he is then he has a chance.

I hope you are right. It was Serotta, and its name attached, that first attracted me to this forum.

[Elefantino]

Something tells me he's reading this thread with interest, and taking notes. If he is then he has a chance.
Hope so.

And if so ... Ben ... internal cable routing. Sheesh!!

[Clancy]

Is that Eric Heiden pictured?

[SoCalSteve]

Something tells me he's reading this thread with interest, and taking notes. If he is then he has a chance.

Don’t hold your breath. My understanding is that he hated this forum and wanted nothing to do with it. I’ve said it before many times, if Ben had taken his Serotta forum more seriously, he might still be in business today.

Dave Kirk and Richard Sachs both come to mind as having a huge internet presence and they are both very successful. Ben could have learned from this.

[robt57]

Meh. Not sure I get it.

And me, I am sure I don't get it. ;)

[Brian Smith]

I don’t love the look but I do love the simplicity. My Zanconato is similarly built and there’s no rattling.

These look like nice bikes but I’m probably not a potential customer. And that’s what he needs.

I agree that there's no more greater liklihood that these cables will rattle than there would be if they were routed inside the tubes. A careful or prudent mechanic might have used a few black foam cylinders over the housing between the guides/lash points.

I'll take a stab at why the photographed bikes dare to look a bit different with the external cables.
Colloquially speaking, when you punch holes in the tubes to let cables in, you either make the tubes heavier than they need to be in order to retain sufficient strength in the hole-y area, or you weaken the tubes by not doing that. The external cables design choice *might* be evidence that the tubes are designed to be as light as they can be rather than as strong as they need to be to accept some extra weakening holes. This is true whether the vendor is a newcomer, whether the enterprise has sophisticated fatigue testing equipment, or if you're just filling in the internal cable routing checkbox on the subcontractor's order form.

I would hope that in this case the choice has been made to retain the full strength of a tubeset designed to minimize weight rather than to conform to recent trends. Certainly the external routing could be done in some more aesthetically friendly ways, but I wouldn't find external to be a negative design choice. The tube design efficiency is my favorite version of why that was taken.
Alternative reasons could be... ride-able prototypes were built too quickly for machined parts allowing internal cable routing to be ready, or prototypes were build at reduced cost and the build was less expensive with external fittings, and/or the design is intended to be maximally mechanic-friendly.

[alexihnen]

I find the definition of success offered here by many to be rather...odd. Sure, one measure of success is still being in business, that’s simple enough. But to claim someone like Ben Serotta has failed because he didn’t follow a boutique artisan builder who sold perhaps 1% or fewer of the bikes Serotta produced...well, that makes no sense at all. Some guy with a slick website and cult following who produces maybe 20 bikes a year is successful. The guy who built a significant company that put out nothing but high quality rides in the thousands for decades is a failure. Some artisan builders have no desire to sell thousands of bikes and have others holding the torch, and that’s fine. They are successful in their right, but dozens of not hundreds of builders scrape for business and dream of having the success of Serotta. I don’t understand a world where Ben isn’t considered one of the most successful American bike builders of the past 40 years.


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[jtbadge]

Something tells me he's reading this thread with interest, and taking notes. If he is then he has a chance.

I doubt it. These are all the same issues that everyone has been saying since the first of these "re-re-re-relaunch"es (as Flash aptly put it) and nothing has changed. Oh, there's a price now but still no specs.

wow. you guys are harsh.
sure seems like a lot of ppl want to see Ben fail.
i wonder how many would say the same thing if Aston Martin rose from the ashes to make the DB2 again.
if you want a flashy paint job and graphics, i bet Walmart has some.

No, people here want him to succeed and it's not going to happen like this.

[pbarry]

At least he figured out that the market is buying bikes with wider rubber. Iirc, when this latest venture was announced, 28's were as wide as the bikes could handle. Or am I confusing that with the alloy frames from last year? Price point is at least 20% high imo.

[AngryScientist]

with regard to drilling holes in butted tubes:

every bicycle in the history of the world has come with water bottle cage mounts right in the middle of the tubes, so i just dont buy that it's not a good idea to do that. simple reinforcements in that area are easy and can be aesthetically pleasing:

https://www.pioneerframeworks.com/uploads/9/8/1/8/98186304/editor/img-9600.jpg?1569946395

[PTinz]

Is that Eric Heiden pictured?

I believe that is Davis Phinney, anyone else think so?

[jpw]

Don’t hold your breath. My understanding is that he hated this forum and wanted nothing to do with it. I’ve said it before many times, if Ben had taken his Serotta forum more seriously, he might still be in business today.

Dave Kirk and Richard Sachs both come to mind as having a huge internet presence and they are both very successful. Ben could have learned from this.

"If you're not listening you're not learning" - and if you're not learning you're making the same mistakes, and smart people don't make the same mistake twice. I've met Ben only once. We had a short conversation. He seemed smart enough. He should be taking note. If he's not then he may as well call it Epilogue and go off and enjoy his golden years doing something else.

[William]

with regard to drilling holes in butted tubes:

every bicycle in the history of the world has come with water bottle cage mounts right in the middle of the tubes, so i just dont buy that it's not a good idea to do that. simple reinforcements in that area are easy and can be aesthetically pleasing:

https://www.pioneerframeworks.com/uploads/9/8/1/8/98186304/editor/img-9600.jpg?1569946395


Interesting point that makes sense on its face. I can't think of a reason why its okay to have two reinforced holes in a tube but it's not okay to do one for wiring? We've also had holes drilled into top tubes to run brake cables, holes in bottom brackets to drain moisture, holes in chain stays as well.





W.

[William]

Don’t hold your breath. My understanding is that he hated this forum and wanted nothing to do with it. I’ve said it before many times, if Ben had taken his Serotta forum more seriously, he might still be in business today.



He must of been onboard with it at some level when he aquired it. Either thought it was a good idea at the time, or at least somone convinced him enough to purchase it. I do agree with you though that it was a hugely wasted opportunity. Had he worked it like DK things might have been very different today.





W.

[William]

"If you're not listening you're not learning" - and if you're not learning you're making the same mistakes, and smart people don't make the same mistake twice. I've met Ben only once. We had a short conversation. He seemed smart enough. He should be taking note. If he's not then he may as well call it Epilogue and go off and enjoy his golden years doing something else.

I got to talk with Ben Serotta a number of times at the factory and some email correspondence. May have even talked with him on the phone as well. That said I can't say I knew him, but I always came away from the conversations feeling that he was cordial and knew his stuff when it came to building. I've known a number of people over the years who were brilliant in one avenue or focus. That doesn't always correlate to other areas of expertise. We all know Ben could build them, but history has shown that the business/marketing side has not been his strong suit. Most people here want him to be successfull, but are seeing those same mistakes happening again. It doesn't instill confidence, at least not enough for a large enough group of people to shell out deposits. Especially when the question hangs out there...will he (or his new corporate entity) still be there to finish orders or support what he sells in the long term?

I hope he is successful.

Just my opinion, YMMV.





W.

[colker]

I may be completely wrong but i feel there is a market for a steel serotta CSI rebirth. Done in batches. Beautifull paint. Lugs. Steel fork. Traditional.
Built w/ campagnolo chorus or shimano Ultegra. A bike for the educated masses.

An entirely different direction from the custom butted titanium stratosphere. I don´t see the point in that market unless you build w/ your own hands w/ no employees.

[William]

I may be completely wrong but i feel there is a market for a steel serotta CSI rebirth. Done in batches. Beautifull paint. Lugs. Steel fork. Traditional.
Built w/ campagnolo chorus or shimano Ultegra. A bike for the educated masses.

An entirely different direction from the custom butted titanium stratosphere. I don´t see the point in that market unless you build w/ your own hands w/ no employees.


If memory serves, I think he tried something like that. You could count the number of people who signed on with one hand. Please correct me if I'm wrong, that's just what I seem to remember.





W.

[Hilltopperny]

If memory serves, I think he tried something like that. You could count the number of people who signed on with one hand. Please correct me if I'm wrong, that's just what I seem to remember.





W.


The Amodomio was a tig welded steel bike with a high price tag and was only available with an etap group.

I think if he did a lugged steel bike with a more utilitarian group option and a lower price tag it would likely do better.

I owned a Ben built filet brazed tandem and the metal work was extremely high quality. As good as any high end steel frame I have had pass through.


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[William]

The Amodomio was a tig welded steel bike with a high price tag and was only available with an etap group.

I think if he did a lugged steel bike with a more utilitarian group option and a lower price tag it would likely do better.

I owned a Ben built filet brazed tandem and the metal work was extremely high quality. As good as any high end steel frame I have had pass through.


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I'm thinking of when Serotta was still open and focused on Ti and CF. A lot of people said they still wanted the steel CSI. He came out and said he would do (possibly an Anniversary run) a run of them. There was a lot of nostalgia talking but only a few people actually stepped up. I think it would be cool but again, how many people would actually step up to buy one? Hard to say, but most of the money being spent out there right now for new rides is going to CF and Ti.








W.

[colker]

If memory serves, I think he tried something like that. You could count the number of people who signed on with one hand. Please correct me if I'm wrong, that's just what I seem to remember.





W.

Serotta is a name w/ story and tradition. Translates well to a high quality bike w/ story and traditional building methods. Do it as an affordable package. Build it in a shop in the US. Sell it at 3k w/105 or Sram and see what happens.

[colker]

I'm thinking of when Serotta was still open and focused on Ti and CF. A lot of people said they still wanted the steel CSI. He came out and said he would do (possibly an Anniversary run) a run of them. There was a lot of nostalgia talking but only a few people actually stepped up. I think it would be cool but again, how many people would actually step up to buy one? Hard to say, but most of the money being spent out there right now for new rides is going to CF and Ti.








W.

My instagram is filled w/ steel bikes. Radavist is all over steel bikes. If there is a Serotta race bike that could fit 700x30 tires.. that could fly.

[R56Blues]

Interesting point that makes sense on its face. I can't think of a reason why its okay to have two reinforced holes in a tube but it's not okay to do one for wiring? We've also had holes drilled into top tubes to run brake cables, holes in bottom brackets to drain moisture, holes in chain stays as well.











W.From an engineering standpoint a hole in a frame can be a weak spot if impacted, but like you state there are holes in nearly all frames. And old trick to stop a crack in a metal part is to drill a small hole at one or both ends. This redstributes the stress and stops the cracking. Ben must have another reason to run the cable externally. One of life's mysteries......

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[William]

My instagram is filled w/ steel bikes. Radavist is all over steel bikes. If there is a Serotta race bike that could fit 700x30 tires.. that could fly.


I'm not saying you are wrong, just pointing out that there is often a gap between what people say they want, and what they are actually willing to do.

As I said before, I hope he is successful.





W.

[William]

From an engineering standpoint a hole in a frame can be a weak spot if impacted, but like you state there are holes in nearly all frames. And old trick to stop a crack in a metal part is to drill a small hole at one or both ends. This redstributes the stress and stops the cracking. Ben must have another reason to run the cable externally. One of life's mysteries......

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Very true.:)




W.

[Hilltopperny]

I'm thinking of when Serotta was still open and focused on Ti and CF. A lot of people said they still wanted the steel CSI. He came out and said he would do (possibly an Anniversary run) a run of them. There was a lot of nostalgia talking but only a few people actually stepped up. I think it would be cool but again, how many people would actually step up to buy one? Hard to say, but most of the money being spent out there right now for new rides is going to CF and Ti.








W.


Oh yeah. I was thinking of the more recent reboot. I loved my Atlanta and CSI. The Atlanta was what sent me down the Handbuilt rabbit hole!

Carbon and titanium are definitely all I currently own at this stage, but steel does still have its merits as well.


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[FlashUNC]

Serotta is a name w/ story and tradition. Translates well to a high quality bike w/ story and traditional building methods. Do it as an affordable package. Build it in a shop in the US. Sell it at 3k w/105 or Sram and see what happens.

You're asking the consumer to pay double at that point for what's basically a CAAD 12 that they could walk out of any local shop.

No, Ben's at least right in the sense that the high end of the market is where his customers are playing. He's never going to win a volume game.

There's companies doing a far, far better job appealing to that market segment right now, and there's no compelling brand differentiation other than "a team you might have heard of nigh on 35 years ago rode their bikes. But didn't ride their bikes to a Giro win, because those kept breaking, so it was a Landshark under Smilin Andy that day."

It's not a good sign when you're trying to sell gravel bikes that your brand hero shots are of Davis Phinney.

I'm 1000% sure there's a good product in there, but ultimately the brand presentation is horrid. He needs better marketing people yesterday.

[David Kirk]

I find the definition of success offered here by many to be rather...odd. Sure, one measure of success is still being in business, that’s simple enough. But to claim someone like Ben Serotta has failed because he didn’t follow a boutique artisan builder who sold perhaps 1% or fewer of the bikes Serotta produced...well, that makes no sense at all. Some guy with a slick website and cult following who produces maybe 20 bikes a year is successful. The guy who built a significant company that put out nothing but high quality rides in the thousands for decades is a failure. Some artisan builders have no desire to sell thousands of bikes and have others holding the torch, and that’s fine. They are successful in their right, but dozens of not hundreds of builders scrape for business and dream of having the success of Serotta. I don’t understand a world where Ben isn’t considered one of the most successful American bike builders of the past 40 years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I couldn't agree more strongly. I've heard Ben and his company called a failure and I just don't see it. He provided world class bikes to happy customers for 40 years and provided good jobs at good pay to so many people during that time....people that got married and bought homes and raised kids on the money they made working at Serotta. How can you beat that? Forty years.

Success can surely be measured in oh so many ways. I never wanted to go down the path that Ben did - those shoes just don't fit me. But I've kept the lights on for over 17 years and enjoyed myself. If i shut it down now will I be a 'failure'?

I wish the Ben the very best luck in his new venture. He understands what makes a bike ride well better than 98% of the other companies out there putting out bikes and I'll bet his new offerings make for a wonderful ride.

dave

[David Kirk]

with regard to drilling holes in butted tubes:

every bicycle in the history of the world has come with water bottle cage mounts right in the middle of the tubes, so i just dont buy that it's not a good idea to do that. simple reinforcements in that area are easy and can be aesthetically pleasing:

https://www.pioneerframeworks.com/uploads/9/8/1/8/98186304/editor/img-9600.jpg?1569946395

Unfortunately the bottle boss vs. internal brake routing is an apples-to-oranges comparison. Bottle bosses are in such a low stressed area that you can drill a 1/4" hole there and not even put a bottle boss in it (let along a reinforcement plate) and it will last a lifetime. The plates on bottle bosses are usually just for the traditional look.

Drilling a much larger oval hole at the upper end of the down tube is a completely different deal. Filling the hole with an internal tube goes some ways toward making it whole again but not all the way. Adding a plate on top of that can help but all the head needed to get that that stuff welded in place causes its own problems.

I have people ask me to put internal brake housing in a 953 down tube and the answer is always a firm 'no'. The risks are very high and I like sleeping at night knowing that I will not see a DT fail causing an injured rider. I'll do it on some other tubes that are thicker but not on 953.

I can see his logic on this one.....fashion be damned.

dave

[happycampyer]

I find the definition of success offered here by many to be rather...odd. Sure, one measure of success is still being in business, that’s simple enough. But to claim someone like Ben Serotta has failed because he didn’t follow a boutique artisan builder who sold perhaps 1% or fewer of the bikes Serotta produced...well, that makes no sense at all. Some guy with a slick website and cult following who produces maybe 20 bikes a year is successful. The guy who built a significant company that put out nothing but high quality rides in the thousands for decades is a failure. Some artisan builders have no desire to sell thousands of bikes and have others holding the torch, and that’s fine. They are successful in their right, but dozens of not hundreds of builders scrape for business and dream of having the success of Serotta. I don’t understand a world where Ben isn’t considered one of the most successful American bike builders of the past 40 years.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAs I noted above, this discussion isn’t about the past, it’s about the present. I couldn’t agree with you more that Serotta was a dominant force in the cycling industry for ~40 years, and introduced dozens of innovations that many builders have adopted (often decades after Serotta). I would argue that the Legend is still one of the most refined and advanced titanium frames ever made and, as much as people belly ached Serotta’s pricing, no builder today makes a titanium frame with all of the refinements of a Legend, and yet the prices of their frames have surpassed those of a Legend.

I own a custom Meivici, a few Ottrotts, a custom all-ti Legend (as well as Tim P’s cast-off S&S-coupled Legend ST and Scott Hock’s custom-deluxe singlespeed Legend), a Pronto (bought on “close-out”), and a CSi. How many Serottas do you own and, if you do own one or more, how many did you buy new? In theory, I and several others here are the customers that Ben is looking to line up to sell one these precious 100 frames to. And there are things about these frames that are very appealing to me, like the Colorado Concept(-esque) tubing. But I would like to know who is fabricating the frames, since Ben sure as you-know-what isn’t. Is it Andy Keech? That would be a big plus in my book, knowing that one of the most talented former welders at Serotta (and Kelly Bedford’s welder) was behind the torch. Could Ben have snagged some of the experienced welders that Moots and Seven have displaced? That would be great, too. Given how Ben (or the people who ran Serotta (into the ground) at the end) f’d over the team that ended up at No. 22, it certain isn’t them. Kent Eriksen was never coy about who welded his frames, and neither was Tom Kellogg (e.g., Seven for ti for the last stage of Spectrum). Steve Hampsten is another example of someone who has worked with top ti welders for fabrication. For all I know, these are made by the factory that makes Walty frames.

As far as internal cable routing goes, I’m sorry, but that is a total red herring imo. Yes, it adds a little weight, and yes, it’s mainly an aesthetic thing, but offer it as an option with an upcharge, as many builders do. As Angry noted, builders have drilled holes (in the thinnest part of a butted tube, if the tube is butted) for decades and they haven’t exploded. For years, Serotta and Seven used pop rivets—I think Seven might still, but Serotta figured out how to weld reinforced bosses in later years à la Moots and many others. Granted, brake and Di2 ports are in a higher stress area, but adjust the butt length if necessary. The I-know-better-than-everyone-else attitude that Ben and (especially) Rob V have is tiresome. The pot-shot at Firefly’s adaptive butting in the brochure is gratuitous. I’ve heard that, in the midst of a bike boom—and from all indications a custom bike boom—Seven recently laid off a bunch of people. Could it be that Seven’s unwillingness to adapt with the market is hurting business? Even Moots has come around. How did the guys who built Serottas for a decade or more suddenly figure out how to internally route cables within weeks of Serotta closing its doors? Mosaic, Firefly, Baum—not exactly fly-by-night, inexperience welders.

And as far as Ben goes, I have met and spoken to him at several events (at the factory for a Tour of Battenkill shindig, several events at Signature Cycles and more recently, at NAHBS Hartford for his last Act II), and he is very personable and engaging. He is without doubt one of the pioneers of modern frame building.

I hope Ben is reading this. People like Paul, Tim and me are his lifeline. We probably collectively own 20 or more Serottas. Ben doesn’t know me by name, but he recognizes me when he sees me, and knows that I am someone who has bought multiple Serottas. Serotta is reentering a crowded and very mature space, and imo needs to offer a product that goes toe-to-toe with the best available (never mind that the best available is 80% of a Legend). Give us a reason to buy another.

[colker]

You're asking the consumer to pay double at that point for what's basically a CAAD 12 that they could walk out of any local shop.

No, Ben's at least right in the sense that the high end of the market is where his customers are playing. He's never going to win a volume game.

There's companies doing a far, far better job appealing to that market segment right now, and there's no compelling brand differentiation other than "a team you might have heard of nigh on 35 years ago rode their bikes. But didn't ride their bikes to a Giro win, because those kept breaking, so it was a Landshark under Smilin Andy that day."

It's not a good sign when you're trying to sell gravel bikes that your brand hero shots are of Davis Phinney.

I'm 1000% sure there's a good product in there, but ultimately the brand presentation is horrid. He needs better marketing people yesterday.

The consummer of Serotta would not be the same of the cannondale but i see Serotta´s logic may be different ; he is known for cutting edge racing bikes and may want to keep it this way, the "best" racing bike who cares how much it costs. He is selling titanium as the best.. i believe cutting edge is carbon now.

[e-RICHIE]

<snipped> a very mature space


That, in a nutshell, is what has changed.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool::cool:;)
:cool::cool:;)
;):):)

[happycampyer]

Unfortunately the bottle boss vs. internal brake routing is an apples-to-oranges comparison. Bottle bosses are in such a low stressed area that you can drill a 1/4" hole there and not even put a bottle boss in it (let along a reinforcement plate) and it will last a lifetime. The plates on bottle bosses are usually just for the traditional look.

Drilling a much larger oval hole at the upper end of the down tube is a completely different deal. Filling the hole with an internal tube goes some ways toward making it whole again but not all the way. Adding a plate on top of that can help but all the head needed to get that that stuff welded in place causes its own problems.

I have people ask me to put internal brake housing in a 953 down tube and the answer is always a firm 'no'. The risks are very high and I like sleeping at night knowing that I will not see a DT fail causing an injured rider. I'll do it on some other tubes that are thicker but not on 953.

I can see his logic on this one.....fashion be damned.

daveOf all the people who post here I have the utmost respect for you and your opinions, especially when it comes to framebuilding. One of your 953 frames (unpainted) is on my bucket list, and I’ve marveled at the ones that have made their way through Signature.

I must’ve been typing when you posted your response. As I noted, I get the fact that the holes are in a higher stress area, but literally dozens of very experienced ti builders have figured out how to do it, including former Serotta builders.

[Elefantino]

Battaglin seems to have figured out the internal cable routing thing quite nicely.

[Peter P.]

Serotta is reentering a crowded and very mature space, and imo needs to offer a product that goes toe-to-toe with the best available (never mind that the best available is 80% of a Legend). Give us a reason to buy another.

My thoughts exactly.

The Serotta brand name has lost the cachet of its heyday, through time, the change in material popularity, and the various corporate reincarnations. There's not enough of a demand for lugged steel Serotta's to put food on the table, and the titanium market is saturated with names that have market recognition and relevance. I wish him luck, but I don't know how he's going to drum up the excitement for his latest iteration; that brochure was pure Ambien. He can't rely on all the dentists and doctors who remember the days of 7-11 and Coors, and us bike geeks, to provide sufficient demand.

[happycampyer]

My thoughts exactly.

The Serotta brand name has lost the cachet of its heyday, through time, the change in material popularity, and the various corporate reincarnations. There's not enough of a demand for lugged steel Serotta's to put food on the table, and the titanium market is saturated with names that have market recognition and relevance. I wish him luck, but I don't know how he's going to drum up the excitement for his latest iteration; that brochure was pure Ambien. He can't rely on all the dentists and doctors who remember the days of 7-11 and Coors, and us bike geeks, to provide sufficient demand.The dentist and doctor thing is a tired canard. It’s not as if dentists and doctors stopped buying bikes when Serotta closed its doors. Look around and you will see custom Parlees, Sevens, Fireflys, Pegorettis, you name it with taller headtubes that somehow gave Serotta a bad name. I agree with you on the rest.

[SoCalSteve]

Battaglin seems to have figured out the internal cable routing thing quite nicely.

As was noted earlier, so has No22.

[charliedid]

Anyone wonder if these first 100 exclusive bikes are to be pre-sold as a way to fund the venture? I have no idea (clearly) just thinking out loud. A not a go fund me, go fund me?

[FlashUNC]

Anyone wonder if these first 100 exclusive bikes are to be pre-sold as a way to fund the venture? I have no idea (clearly) just thinking out loud. A not a go fund me, go fund me?

Of course they are. The same way the last go round was an attempt to do so. And the limited edition Serottas from the old company.

What's the definition of insanity?

[PaMtbRider]

The last I heard, these were going to be welded in upstate NY. That doesn't leave a whole lot of possibilities.

[happycampyer]

The last I heard, these were going to be welded in upstate NY. That doesn't leave a whole lot of possibilities.

Interesting. Perhaps Andy K is behind the torch. I notice that Kelly offers internal cable routing in his ti bikes:

http://kbedfordcustoms.com/titanium-carbon-1

What a nube. Someone should tell him he’s building death traps. Maybe Ben will crap on Kelly in his next brochure...

[Hilltopperny]

The last I heard, these were going to be welded in upstate NY. That doesn't leave a whole lot of possibilities.


I wouldn’t necessarily call New Paltz upstate, but anybody south of there probably would. I spoke with Carl Schlemowitz at The Farmer’s Daughter last year and he had mentioned working with Ben. Maybe he is torching these? I am certainly not positive, but I would throw his name in the mix as I know he does plenty of contract building.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pegoready]

Anyone wonder if these first 100 exclusive bikes are to be pre-sold as a way to fund the venture? I have no idea (clearly) just thinking out loud. A not a go fund me, go fund me?

I don't have any connection to this venture but I'll eat my hat if 100 bikes are pre-sold. 100 custom $10k+ bikes is a LOT of business and much more competitive companies are going to flood that demand. Yes rich, fanciful people can afford these bikes but they're also not stupid... they're going to get the best for their money and they're not going to pay until the last minute they can.

My guess is the "100 bike" limited run is pure marketing and they'll build 20 at most.

[AngryScientist]

I wouldn’t necessarily call New Paltz upstate,

haha.

if you're north of the tappan-zee - you're upstate my friend! :)


-signed: a lowly bridges and tunnels NJ'er

:banana:

[Coffee Rider]

Interesting. Perhaps Andy K is behind the torch. I notice that Kelly offers internal cable routing in his ti bikes:

http://kbedfordcustoms.com/titanium-carbon-1

What a nube. Someone should tell him he’s building death traps. Maybe Ben will crap on Kelly in his next brochure...

This sent me back down the Kelly Bedford wormhole, though I find the Firefly Ti/Carbon more appealing than Kelly's. Still, lots of good eye candy.

[Coffee Rider]

This sent me back down the Kelly Bedford wormhole, though I find the Firefly Ti/Carbon more appealing than Kelly's. Still, lots of good eye candy.

For anyone else who wants more Kelly Bedford stuff, he is on Instagram.

[Hilltopperny]

haha.

if you're north of the tappan-zee - you're upstate my friend! :)


-signed: a lowly bridges and tunnels NJ'er

:banana:


I get it, but from where I am south of the Catskills is downstate!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jkbrwn]

This sent me back down the Kelly Bedford wormhole, though I find the Firefly Ti/Carbon more appealing than Kelly's. Still, lots of good eye candy.

The green TIGd steel road frame he has on his website gallery has me feeling all kindsa stuff. So good.

[pdmtong]

The green TIGd steel road frame he has on his website gallery has me feeling all kindsa stuff. So good.

maybe...apparently he hasn't heard post is out and flat is in?

[Mark McM]

From an engineering standpoint a hole in a frame can be a weak spot if impacted, but like you state there are holes in nearly all frames. And old trick to stop a crack in a metal part is to drill a small hole at one or both ends. This redstributes the stress and stops the cracking. Ben must have another reason to run the cable externally. One of life's mysteries......

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Away from the joints, the stresses in the tubes are fairly low. As long as it is far enough away from the joints, a hole in a frame tube shouldn't be a problem. As was pointed out, many frames have holes in the frame for bottle cage mounts. The fbottle cage bosses aren't so much to reinforce the tube, but to give enough thickness to hold the bolt threads. Sometimes frame tube walls are too thin to weld bottle bosses to, so water bottle bosses are crimped in the hold in the tube instead - these crimped in bosses aren't reinforcing the tube.

Do these frames use BSA/ISO threaded bottom bracket shells? With a 24mm or larger spindle, is there enough clearance between the spindle and the inner shell wall to run a hydraulic brake line?

[Pegoready]

Even Moots has come around. How did the guys who built Serottas for a decade or more suddenly figure out how to internally route cables within weeks of Serotta closing its doors? Mosaic, Firefly, Baum—not exactly fly-by-night, inexperience welders.



Yes and no. I see the whole internal routing thing from a more cynical side. Moots came around right after their ownership change and bringing in a corporate CEO, not a builder. I have a feeling the timing is not coincidental.

Firefly came from IF, Mosaic from Dean, and both those fiesty little companies needed to differentiate themselves from their former employers. I'm sure, when you're in fighting mode and not sure you're going to make it to next year, you're going to say yes to everything a customer wants and sees on an S-Works.

I don't think internally routed Ti frames with holes in the down tube are proven yet. The oldest ones are probably not even 5. Do they even have tracks welded inside or does the housing just rattle about?

[Mark McM]

if you're north of the tappan-zee - you're upstate my friend! :)

I grew up in Poughkeepsie, and always considered it downstate. But outside of New York state, if you tell someone you're from downstate, they assume you're from the NYC or Long Island. So now I tell people I grew up in upstate New York.

[Buzz Killington]

I grew up in Poughkeepsie, and always considered it downstate. But outside of New York state, if you tell someone you're from downstate, they assume you're from the NYC or Long Island. So now I tell people I grew up in upstate New York.

The whole upstate/downstate thing is so subjective. I live just south of Kingston, and most people consider this upstate. But just about everyone who lives around here is from LI or the city. I consider everything below Albany downstate. I went to college in Potsdam. Now that is upstate!

To keep on original topic, I’m from Glens Falls area and remember Ben Serotta doing a presentation for the Adirondack Spokes bike club back in the late 80’s. Met him a few times and always seems pleasant. I admit to questioning his rationale on some things, but hey that’s why they invented the internet.

[Toddykins]

Yes and no. I see the whole internal routing thing from a more cynical side. Moots came around right after their ownership change and bringing in a corporate CEO, not a builder. I have a feeling the timing is not coincidental.

Firefly came from IF, Mosaic from Dean, and both those fiesty little companies needed to differentiate themselves from their former employers. I'm sure, when you're in fighting mode and not sure you're going to make it to next year, you're going to say yes to everything a customer wants and sees on an S-Works.

I don't think internally routed Ti frames with holes in the down tube are proven yet. The oldest ones are probably not even 5. Do they even have tracks welded inside or does the housing just rattle about?

Lol - You have never dealt with Firefly have you? The attention to detail is stunning and if it couldn’t be safely and reliably done they wouldn’t do it.

There is some related discussion from Kevin in the comments thread here: https://cyclingtips.com/2020/08/bikes-of-the-bunch-firefly-ti-carbon-with-dotted-anodisation/

[colker]

Chosing a bike builder based on his ability to disguise the cables is dumb. A bicycle is a modern machine. Even modern architecture shows building structures as it´s beauty.
If a builder says a tubing should be left alone i go with it.

[pbarry]

Chosing a bike builder based on his ability to disguise the cables is dumb. A bicycle is a modern machine. Even modern architecture shows building structures as it´s beauty.
If a builder says a tubing should be left alone i go with it.

Rob English must have dumb customers. ;)

[happycampyer]

Yes and no. I see the whole internal routing thing from a more cynical side. Moots came around right after their ownership change and bringing in a corporate CEO, not a builder. I have a feeling the timing is not coincidental.

Firefly came from IF, Mosaic from Dean, and both those fiesty little companies needed to differentiate themselves from their former employers. I'm sure, when you're in fighting mode and not sure you're going to make it to next year, you're going to say yes to everything a customer wants and sees on an S-Works.

I don't think internally routed Ti frames with holes in the down tube are proven yet. The oldest ones are probably not even 5. Do they even have tracks welded inside or does the housing just rattle about?In addition to Firefly and Mosaic, Kelly Bedford, No. 22 (both ex-Serotta), Baum, Bertoletti, Bingham (probably one of the most talented fabricators/welders to work at Moots, before the corporate bean counters took over), DeSalvo, Stelbel, Strong, probably a dozen more... it's a pretty long list of reckless and inexperienced framebuilders in fighting mode who don't know if they'll make it to next year. It's probably easier to compile a list of builders who don't offer it. Even Seven has started offering internal hydro cable routing, albeit only on certain models, and through the headtube. Here's Seven's plea not to order internal cable routing, and not to buy a frame from any of the other builders who are eating their lunch:

https://sevencycles.com/options/cable-routing-options-2-types.php

Re rattling, I believe that Firefly runs a full sleeve:

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-zv6Zp3g/0/777f232c/X2/i-zv6Zp3g-X2.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-9Krr3S8/0/755d1cc9/X2/i-9Krr3S8-X2.jpg

Can't say for sure, but I can say that it doesn't rattle or do any of the horrible things that Rob V says about it. I'll keep an eye out for cracks.

Chosing a bike builder based on his ability to disguise the cables is dumb. A bicycle is a modern machine. Even modern architecture shows building structures as it´s beauty.
If a builder says a tubing should be left alone i go with it.

I get it, as I said above it's an aesthetic/vanity thing, but I'd rather not have a ti bike with disc brakes look like the Centre Georges Pompidou if it doesn't have to...

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-gDkFq8b/0/78e6ff64/O/i-gDkFq8b.jpg

That said, I still bought this frame even though I knew that it wouldn't have internal brake cable routing like the one I already had:

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Gq7FFNj/0/f983d82b/L/i-Gq7FFNj-L.jpg

Don't get me wrong—it warmed my heart to see "SEROTTA" etched onto the tubes of those bikes in the brochure. Here is a prototype Serotta all-road bike that was way ahead of its time, and which I got a chance to ride briefly in 2012. Sadly, the bike never made it into production before the company folded.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-dwx7Ftg/0/1733a415/L/i-dwx7Ftg-L.jpg.
Serotta would have been way ahead of the curve with this bike. There are signature Serotta details on this prototype that even the current models don't have.

[fiamme red]

I wonder which 26" road tires (559 mm) he'll use for the smaller sizes of Duetti.

By the way, I don't see a link to the Prologue brochure on the home page: https://serotta.com/. Why is this only shared through e-mail?

[fiamme red]

There was a photo the other day in a Forbes article of John Kerry riding his Serotta.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2020/08/22/two-weeks-after-fox-news-showed-joe-biden-cycling-donald-trump-counters-ill-never-ride-a-bicycle/#667cce7351a7

At the mention of walking, Trump remembered that Kerry had fallen from his bicycle. (Kerry—the Democratic nomination for president of the United States in 2004—has long been a keen road cyclist, and would often bring his high-end hand-built Serotta bicycle on overseas diplomatic missions.)

“He rode his bicycle remember,” said Trump. “He was in an accident. I promised at 73-years-old, I said I’ll never be riding a bicycle. He had a helmet, he had the names, the insignias all over; he had insignias like, you know, like he was a 20-year-old great cyclist from France.”https://specials-images.forbesimg.com/imageserve/5f417f92196eac89fbda5675/960x0.jpg?fit=scale

[54ny77]

i thought north of 14th st. was upstate?

;)

The whole upstate/downstate thing is so subjective.

[Toddykins]

i thought north of 14th st. was update?

;)

North of Houston?

[jpw]

Unfortunately the bottle boss vs. internal brake routing is an apples-to-oranges comparison. Bottle bosses are in such a low stressed area that you can drill a 1/4" hole there and not even put a bottle boss in it (let along a reinforcement plate) and it will last a lifetime. The plates on bottle bosses are usually just for the traditional look.

Drilling a much larger oval hole at the upper end of the down tube is a completely different deal. Filling the hole with an internal tube goes some ways toward making it whole again but not all the way. Adding a plate on top of that can help but all the head needed to get that that stuff welded in place causes its own problems.

I have people ask me to put internal brake housing in a 953 down tube and the answer is always a firm 'no'. The risks are very high and I like sleeping at night knowing that I will not see a DT fail causing an injured rider. I'll do it on some other tubes that are thicker but not on 953.

I can see his logic on this one.....fashion be damned.

dave

Is this a better way?;
https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=257007

[mcteague]

Even Seven has started offering internal hydro cable routing, albeit only on certain models, and through the headtube. Here's Seven's plea not to order internal cable routing, and not to buy a frame from any of the other builders who are eating their lunch:



I must say that, after reading, Seven's reasons for dragging their feet on internal cables make a lot of sense. They really do seem to have thought through the ramifications of this feature.

Tim

[jpw]

A quick revisit.

Serotta's new tubes are of interest. I'm not sure too many of the aforementioned boutique brands and builders are working with quite that kind of shaping.

[jpw]

Do we know what the bottom bracket standard it is to be for these new frames?

[Pastashop]

Many talented craftsmen / craftswomen out there in the bike biz. Doesn’t mean they all understand mechanics well, or work well with customers, or have good taste, or are organized enough to get things done on time, etc. The combination of all these things is rare, and oftentimes you pay extra for it. And still have to watch / check over the details.

Aside: I used to love the look of internal cable routing, but for practical reasons, nowadays I couldn’t care less for it.

“Ride bike.” -JB

[SoCalSteve]

A quick revisit.

Serotta's new tubes are of interest. I'm not sure too many of the aforementioned boutique brands and builders are working with quite that kind of shaping.

Check out No22 and Firefly. I think you will be surprised.

[jpw]

Check out No22 and Firefly. I think you will be surprised.

22's seat stay bridge design kills the experience for me. Brutal looking thing.

FF has some nice artisan touches.

[fiamme red]

You only have until the end of October to order a limited-edition Prologue:

https://serotta.com/

Because nothing beats custom done right, just like you, each is an original. Before we start to design your bicycle, you’ll talk one-on-one with our team of specialists capped by a one-on-one with Ben himself so that we understand you as a cyclist and your kind of riding- pavement, gravel and anything in-between. Then on completion, your Prologue Edition will be signed, numbered and dated alongside the commemorative marque that only 100 bicycles will ever have.

But what we’re most excited about is to begin sharing the benefits of our latest design and engineering tour de force–a stunning, confidence inspiring ride that will draw your inner champion out to play.

Prologue offer available through October 30, 2020

[ERK55]

So, no more steel frames?

[jpw]

You only have until the end of October to order a limited-edition Prologue:

https://serotta.com/

...but there will be standard geometry production frames after this SE run is completed?

[fiamme red]

...but there will be standard geometry production frames after this SE run is completed?It appears from the website that all frames will be custom.

https://serotta.com/compare-models

Why don't you publish geometry charts?

We don't publish geometry charts because every bicycle is design-optimized for the only cyclist that matters, you. Your size, strength, position on the bike and of course component selection all drive the geometry in a frame and fork. We begin with understanding where and how you sit on the bike and then design the right bike underneath you. Sharing a geometry chart as most companies do, is only useful if we were making a limited number of sizes designed for nobody in particular. We can't design your next bike without knowing you! Our deep understanding and interpretation of position, fit, balance and design parameters, is what sets us apart from the peloton of fitters, designers and builders.

[AngryScientist]

i have definitely been wondering what it would take to get my inner champion to come out to play.

[fiamme red]

i have definitely been wondering what it would take to get my inner champion to come out to play.:)

I'm wondering if Serotta's requirement of a $4500 deposit to get in the build queue is consistent with what other custom builders charge? I just looked up Firefly's policy, and they only ask for a $1000 deposit (https://fireflybicycles.com/store/Deposit-for-Custom-Bicycle-p87492072).

https://serotta.com/deposit

"To proceed with ordering a bike you will pay a $4500 non-refundable deposit to reserve your spot on the build list. Once we collect your measurement data, a draft is made, you approve it and we assign a target build commencement date for your frame. At that time, you will also be provided an estimated delivery date for your bicycle..."

[Mikej]

Straight gage?

[AngryScientist]

:)

I'm wondering if Serotta's requirement of a $4500 deposit to get in the build queue is consistent with what other custom builders charge? I just looked up Firefly's policy, and they only ask for a $1000 deposit (https://fireflybicycles.com/store/Deposit-for-Custom-Bicycle-p87492072).

https://serotta.com/deposit

"To proceed with ordering a bike you will pay a $4500 non-refundable deposit to reserve your spot on the build list. Once we collect your measurement data, a draft is made, you approve it and we assign a target build commencement date for your frame. At that time, you will also be provided an estimated delivery date for your bicycle..."

wait - how much do these things cost in total?

only a true fool would plunk down $4,500 as a non-refundable deposit for a vaporware product.

edit: i see now the duetti is starting at $8,900 for a complete bike. Realistically that's not out of line with other top end Ti builders, but Serotta is shooting themselves right in the foot as usual. 4500 bucks deposit is a total non-starter for me, and probably everyone and anyone else that is even vaguely familiar with their performance history.

[Mikej]

wait - how much do these things cost in total?

only a true fool would plunk down $4,500 as a non-refundable deposit for a vaporware product.

edit: i see now the duetti is starting at $8,900 for a complete bike. Realistically that's not out of line with other top end Ti builders, but Serotta is shooting themselves right in the foot as usual. 4500 bucks deposit is a total non-starter for me, and probably everyone and anyone else that is even vaguely familiar with their performance history.

They need the money to start up is my guess.

[charliedid]

wait - how much do these things cost in total?

only a true fool would plunk down $4,500 as a non-refundable deposit for a vaporware product.

edit: i see now the duetti is starting at $8,900 for a complete bike. Realistically that's not out of line with other top end Ti builders, but Serotta is shooting themselves right in the foot as usual. 4500 bucks deposit is a total non-starter for me, and probably everyone and anyone else that is even vaguely familiar with their performance history.

I'm not sure you are the target buyer. People who plunk down for $10000.00 bikes generally don't spend alot of time on ebay or bike forums looking for bargain basement deals. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Miller76]

And they are not offering a frame only option at this stage. $4,500 deposit required


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fiamme red]

And they are not offering a frame only option at this stage. $4,500 deposit requiredWhy not offer an option for frame and fork alone, and let the customer use his own parts and wheels to build the bike if he chooses? Is there a good reason only to offer complete bikes?

[gavingould]

crazy on the deposit.

[Velocipede]

I'm curious who's building it. I know he's having some things made in Asia, I wonder if this is too?

[ERK55]

Why not offer an option for frame and fork alone, and let the customer use his own parts and wheels to build the bike if he chooses? Is there a good reason only to offer complete bikes?

Probably to maximize profit?
But there are a number of solo custom builders who will only send out complete bikes.

[pdmtong]

Why not offer an option for frame and fork alone, and let the customer use his own parts and wheels to build the bike if he chooses? Is there a good reason only to offer complete bikes?

Some builders only sell complete - Speedvagen is one. The pretense is that they want to ensure the whole bike works as it should. The subtext is they want bikes rolling out the door with the best groups and wheels, not a f/f adorned with 9 speed Ultegra triple on 32h open pros.

Having to buy complete is a deal breaker for me BUT I would think that can be "discussed" outside the lines once it's determined you intend to place an order.

If Ben had recent history of delivering outstanding product on time the $4500 would be outrageous but rationalized. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

[gavingould]

anyone have an idea of how many bikes have actually been made and sold to end users under Ben's business incarnations since the whole debacle back in 2013 with Divine Cycling Group/Blue/MadFiber?

[Brian Smith]

Straight gage?

Butted.

[oldpotatoe]

Why not offer an option for frame and fork alone, and let the customer use his own parts and wheels to build the bike if he chooses? Is there a good reason only to offer complete bikes?

Yup, because the margin on parts purchased as OEM is YUGE!!
But like buying any high zoom frame, letting the customer decide how to rig it is key....ought to offer frame and/or fork only.
The subtext is they want bikes rolling out the door with the best groups and wheels, not a f/f adorned with 9 speed Ultegra triple on 32h open pros.

Pretty arrogant on their part. The ‘heart’ of a bicycle is the frame and fork. The rest of the ‘stuff’ are only consumables and for coffee shop points.

[jpw]

They need the money to start up is my guess.

Yes. No risk taking. No skin in the game. It's all on the customer.

[jpw]

Straight gage?

I think the tubes are being hydroformed in Taiwan. I think I read that. I'm not sure if that equates to straight or butted in the traditional sense. Interesting tech.

[BumbleBeeDave]

The snark and speculation machines always go into red zone overdrive whenever Ben's name is mentioned here. I've never quite understood why.

The steel frames are currently being built by Frank the Welder. The Ti frames are coming out of Vicious in New Paltz.

Here are some pictures. The bare ti frame is the prototype gravel bike. It has the Campy Ekar group on it and there are also a few pictures of that. The bike with the blue is steel. Both bikes look beautiful.

Ben is a human beings like every other human being. He has his strong points--and weak ones. For me the bottom line is that, as Dave Kirk has so eloquently put it, Ben ran a successful bike company for 40 years that helped employees raise families and buy homes.

FORTY. YEARS.

Has anyone else here done that? Anyone? . . . . . . . . (crickets)

Yeah, I thought so. Go ride your bikes. He will succeed or he will fail, but it's not up to us, and I assure you he is not breathlessly following every post in every thread here that mentions his name.

BBD

[Matthew]

They look great.

[reuben]

crazy on the deposit.

Ain't no way I'm plunkin' down $4500 for a bike that has never been produced.

But I wish him well.

[pdmtong]

The snark and speculation machines always go into red zone overdrive whenever Ben's name is mentioned here. I've never quite understood why.

The steel frames are currently being built by Frank the Welder. The Ti frames are coming out of Vicious in New Paltz.

Here are some pictures. The bare ti frame is the prototype gravel bike. It has the Campy Ekar group on it and there are also a few pictures of that. The bike with the blue is steel. Both bikes look beautiful.

Ben is a human beings like every other human being. He has his strong points--and weak ones. For me the bottom line is that, as Dave Kirk has so eloquently put it, Ben ran a successful bike company for 40 years that helped employees raise families and buy homes.

FORTY. YEARS.

Has anyone else here done that? Anyone? . . . . . . . . (crickets)

Yeah, I thought so. Go ride your bikes. He will succeed or he will fail, but it's not up to us, and I assure you he is not breathlessly following every post in every thread here that mentions his name.

BBD

I really don't care if Ben is reading this thread or not. Nor does anyone else. It's a discussion forum and all ho participate are free to express their views as you are.

You don't understand the snark? Try first digesting that your post has given more info and pictures about the bikes than any other.

Doesn't that strike you as odd?

What he did the past 40 years might earn him the opty to gain the next customer's dollar. But, it might not. That's business reality.

And that reality has nothing to do with the accolades and achievements he has earned and richly deserves.

[572cv]

The snark and speculation machines always go into red zone overdrive whenever Ben's name is mentioned here. I've never quite understood why.

The steel frames are currently being built by Frank the Welder. The Ti frames are coming out of Vicious in New Paltz.

Here are some pictures. The bare ti frame is the prototype gravel bike. It has the Campy Ekar group on it and there are also a few pictures of that. The bike with the blue is steel. Both bikes look beautiful.

Ben is a human beings like every other human being. He has his strong points--and weak ones. For me the bottom line is that, as Dave Kirk has so eloquently put it, Ben ran a successful bike company for 40 years that helped employees raise families and buy homes.

FORTY. YEARS.

Has anyone else here done that? Anyone? . . . . . . . . (crickets)

Yeah, I thought so. Go ride your bikes. He will succeed or he will fail, but it's not up to us, and I assure you he is not breathlessly following every post in every thread here that mentions his name.

BBD
Thanks BBD! Having some more background on the frames and set up is great intel. Real information is much better than speculation.

[onekgguy]

That gravel bike is a thing of beauty!

Kevin g

[jpw]

The snark and speculation machines always go into red zone overdrive whenever Ben's name is mentioned here. I've never quite understood why.

The steel frames are currently being built by Frank the Welder. The Ti frames are coming out of Vicious in New Paltz.

Here are some pictures. The bare ti frame is the prototype gravel bike. It has the Campy Ekar group on it and there are also a few pictures of that. The bike with the blue is steel. Both bikes look beautiful.

Ben is a human beings like every other human being. He has his strong points--and weak ones. For me the bottom line is that, as Dave Kirk has so eloquently put it, Ben ran a successful bike company for 40 years that helped employees raise families and buy homes.

FORTY. YEARS.

Has anyone else here done that? Anyone? . . . . . . . . (crickets)

Yeah, I thought so. Go ride your bikes. He will succeed or he will fail, but it's not up to us, and I assure you he is not breathlessly following every post in every thread here that mentions his name.

BBD

Did you take these photos?

[laupsi]

I for one am very happy to see Serotta’s named wrapped around another down tube.

[fiamme red]

The steel frames are currently being built by Frank the Welder. The Ti frames are coming out of Vicious in New Paltz.

Here are some pictures. The bare ti frame is the prototype gravel bike. It has the Campy Ekar group on it and there are also a few pictures of that. The bike with the blue is steel. Both bikes look beautiful.Thanks for the photos. But I don't see any steel frames on the new website. Both models are now titanium only.

By the way, I rode yesterday past where Vicious Cycles is located on S. Ohioville Rd, but I didn't see any sign.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Did you take these photos?

I shot them at an event earlier this month while talking with his representative.

Plus a poster earlier in the thread surmised that Ben could learn something if he followed the thread. I've seen that thought expressed in similar threads in the past.

To PDMtong . . . I have no trouble with the opinions that are expressed. My puzzlement is at the tone that comes out every time there is a thread about whatever Ben is--or is not--doing. It comes across as snarky. But I never seem to see any justification from those airing their snark on exactly why. Did they get stiffed on a deposit when the old Serotta went under? Did he cut in front of them in the refreshment stand line at NAHBS? I just don't get it. Plus, remembering my years as a mod here, I was not the only one to notice this.

With the big deposits, he's pretty obviously trying to raise capital for his start-up. It's not exactly a unique strategy, and it's obviously worked for him in the past. So why wouldn't he try it again?

If you don't like the way he does business, then don't buy a bike from him. Go elsewhere. Simple as that. Kinda like if you don't like the off-topic thread, don't read it.

Ben has had his share of successes–and failures. These bikes are too expensive for me now, so I would probably not be buying another one. But there seems to be this undercurrent of expectation of failure that ignores the string of very real successes he achieved in running his company for as long as he did.

I'm not apologizing for him–just puzzled by the hostility that seems to come out in every thread concerning Serotta in the 17 years I've been a forum member.

BBD

[pdmtong]

I shot them at an event earlier this month while talking with his representative.

Plus a poster earlier in the thread surmised that Ben could learn something if he followed the thread. I've seen that thought expressed in similar threads in the past.

To PDMtong . . . I have no trouble with the opinions that are expressed. My puzzlement is at the tone that comes out every time there is a thread about whatever Ben is--or is not--doing. It comes across as snarky. But I never seem to see any justification from those airing their snark on exactly why. Did they get stiffed on a deposit when the old Serotta went under? Did he cut in front of them in the refreshment stand line at NAHBS? I just don't get it. Plus, remembering my years as a mod here, I was not the only one to notice this.

With the big deposits, he's pretty obviously trying to raise capital for his start-up. It's not exactly a unique strategy, and it's obviously worked for him in the past. So why wouldn't he try it again?

If you don't like the way he does business, then don't buy a bike from him. Go elsewhere. Simple as that. Kinda like if you don't like the off-topic thread, don't read it.

Ben has had his share of successes–and failures. These bikes are too expensive for me now, so I would probably not be buying another one. But there seems to be this undercurrent of expectation of failure that ignores the string of very real successes he achieved in running his company for as long as he did.

I'm not apologizing for him–just puzzled by the hostility that seems to come out in every thread concerning Serotta in the 17 years I've been a forum member.

BBD
Yes, I can see the snark and the hostility in posts about Ben. But step back and ask yourself, who announces a new bike line, with partially completed or absent website information, and asks for a $4500 non-refundable deposit? There's more info in a kickstarter campaign than on his website.

People snark all over Speedvagen - the price, the marketing, the paint but no one wonders if Sacha will deliver.

Serotta fabrication was off the chart exquisite. But Ben's starts and stops in the recent years do not inspire confidence. Worse, competitors have caught up in all the fabrication areas that matter from a buyer perspective, except the triple butted ti.

I used to look at my ottrott and marvel an the relieved headtube and the relieved BB. and the bi-axially oriented swaged carbon tubes. just unreal.

despite those advancements, the market is still unkind. $6500 f/f can barely get $1500 if that? It is just indicative of time marching on and the plethora of current choices.

As for the "undercurrent of expectation of failure" isnt this iteration the 3rd or 4th "announcement" since the Serotta closure? where are the bikes from the previous incarnations?

I wouldnt say I hope he fails. I would simply say he isn't building the confidence or aspiration to make me consider sending some money his way. Others are less kind in their comments - hence the impression of snark and hostility.

That said, your sharing the spy shots is much appreciated.

[54ny77]

I'll take a wild guess Serotta couldn't care less about this forum or its members' opinions, likening it to a little old lady kvetch-fest about bike stuff by armchair experts.

If that's true....its a tragedy. He could probably sell out an entire years' run if he hustled for biz here like all the exemplary builders who were laid off from Serotta to start anew elsewhere, as well as other top notch independent shops who had to build their brand from scratch. Forty years of brand equity means something.

Oh well. Bring on the popcorn!

[jpw]

Time for specifics. Do those dropouts look functional or brutal? I can't decide.

[SPOKE]

The pics that BBD posted show that the frame sets are well thought out. The rear dropouts look a bit more “industrial” than I really would like to see but that’s just personal taste. I think they appear to be very functional and allow easy fit up with the stays which will help make welding a bit easier. I dig the shaping of the chain stays! Overall really nice bikes. When Ben gets to the point that he offers frame sets I’d like to get one!

[BumbleBeeDave]

Yes, I can see the snark and the hostility in posts about Ben. But step back and ask yourself, who announces a new bike line, with partially completed or absent website information, and asks for a $4500 non-refundable deposit? There's more info in a kickstarter campaign than on his website.

People snark all over Speedvagen - the price, the marketing, the paint but no one wonders if Sacha will deliver.

Serotta fabrication was off the chart exquisite. But Ben's starts and stops in the recent years do not inspire confidence. Worse, competitors have caught up in all the fabrication areas that matter from a buyer perspective, except the triple butted ti.

I used to look at my ottrott and marvel an the relieved headtube and the relieved BB. and the bi-axially oriented swaged carbon tubes. just unreal.

despite those advancements, the market is still unkind. $6500 f/f can barely get $1500 if that? It is just indicative of time marching on and the plethora of current choices.

As for the "undercurrent of expectation of failure" isnt this iteration the 3rd or 4th "announcement" since the Serotta closure? where are the bikes from the previous incarnations?

I wouldnt say I hope he fails. I would simply say he isn't building the confidence or aspiration to make me consider sending some money his way. Others are less kind in their comments - hence the impression of snark and hostility.

That said, your sharing the spy shots is much appreciated.

You make some good points here. I'm just not aware of any incidents where Ben failed to deliver a bike if someone ordered one--and if he did fail, not offering a refund. People may have lost deposits in '12 when the company shut down, but by then he wasn't even there. He had, in effect, been fired from his own company. Note this is the first time since then he has tried to offer bikes with his own name on the down tube. He even lost the commercial rights to his own name for that time.

Having been on the forum since 2003, I saw this streak of hostility long before the company went under. The only specific story I remember of an unhappy customer that included details or info from the customer himself resulted in Ben building him a new bike at no charge–and that wasn't because it had been aired on the forum. I've been puzzled because there seems to have always been this undercurrent of hostility without any specific accusations of anything he did to earn the hostility. I remember "The Jerk" constantly referring derisively to Ben's "faster backwards" bikes simply because Ben built them for what that individual cyclist needed due to physical needs, not what Jerk-Man thought a bike should look like. Just loads of crap thrown Ben's way in public that would have had me shutting the place down in a sec if it was me having to endure that bull.

Note that for many years, Ben was actively paying to keep a forum going where he was often disparaged. The Paceline is only here today and since it started in Feb. 2012 because Ben allowed it. He could have just shut the whole thing down, but instead offered to give it to anybody who wanted to keep it going.

My bottom line is he did keep a company going for 40 years, made a lot of cyclists happy, and gave a lot of people careers. He was always nice to me when we met and I just wish him well.

BBD

[fiamme red]

I was wondering if the project was going forward. It was good to see that there are some new posts on the Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SerottaCycling/.

Has anyone here seen a Prologue in person?

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/167316109_294848732074880_2504349835301637652_n.jp g?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=973b4a&_nc_ohc=R352e4QgIqcAX8R5wll&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=070d3899e77506a4d9efc928ea63917f&oe=608D5EEE

[BumbleBeeDave]

.... I have. Beautiful bike.

BBD

I was wondering if the project was going forward. It was good to see that there are some new posts on the Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SerottaCycling/.

Has anyone here seen a Prologue in person?

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/167316109_294848732074880_2504349835301637652_n.jp g?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=973b4a&_nc_ohc=R352e4QgIqcAX8R5wll&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=070d3899e77506a4d9efc928ea63917f&oe=608D5EEE

[Ronsonic]

Rob English must have dumb customers. ;)

There's a LOT going on with an English, the cable routing being the least of them.

[Ronsonic]

Time for specifics. Do those dropouts look functional or brutal? I can't decide.

Functionally brutal. I think I like them.

[AngryScientist]

I'm sure many of you got the Serotta update email today.

I wonder how many they are selling? I know they made another announcement a couple months ago that they would build rim brake models now, a walk back of the disc only framesets they re-started with.

Curious if anyone on this forum is considering a new Serotta or maybe has ordered one?

New Option 1

We have orders placed for all top tier component groups from the leading suppliers, but like everyone else, do not expect deliveries to match our demand. So, instead of disappointing our customers we’re offering a limited number of production slots for frameset-only orders.

Frameset (frame, fork, headset, seat clamp, axles) prices start at $6695 (steel); $7545 (titanium) including custom design fees.

Please also note: Our primary concern is always for your safety. Customers who purchase framesets directly from Serotta will be asked to sign an agreement accepting the risks and responsibilities for the assembly and maintenance of the bicycle.

2

Your New Serotta is now available in participation with your favorite Independent Retailer /Fitting Specialist.
You love your favorite bike shop…and wish you could purchase your new Serotta through their store. Now you can. The only requirements are that the retailer has a proven track record of understanding bike fit and has a pro-level mechanic on staff for assembly and service…. and of course, that the retailer agrees to facilitate the transaction. No worries, we’ll make sure that you have the full benefit of the Serotta approach to personalized design and engineering, collaborating with your retailer to ensure you have the full value of a truly bespoke experience. Please note, your retailer will be responsible for obtaining and quoting the finished bicycle cost, including assembly.

If you’d like to purchase your new Serotta with the convenience of your favorite retailer or service provider, just provide us with the contact info for your local shop/s and we can take it from there.

3

(i thought you could always do this...)

Book a fitting with Ben S himself.

[Coffee Rider]

Although it doesn't really matter to me since I'm already set on ordered bikes and have one that Ben built, does anyone know whether Ben is at least building the steel bikes himself? That would make the price seem somewhat more reasonable even though I think that's the most expensive steel frameset around.

[lavi]

Those prices. Lol. GFL.

[jkbrwn]

Woof. Cash. Money.

[nmrt]

i would have been the first to scoff at the prices. but if chinese/taiwanese made frames can cost $5500, a boutiquely boutique Serotta, made in the U.S. with living wages and health care (hopefully), can certainly be $7500.

Or maybe we go back to our annual blaming TPC for jacking up prices of all bikes and bike related things.

[fiamme red]

Non-refundable deposit is apparently still $4,500.

https://serotta.com/deposit

To proceed with ordering a bike you will pay a $4500 non-refundable deposit to reserve your spot on the build list. Once we collect your measurement data, a draft is made, you approve it and we assign a target build commencement date for your frame. At that time, you will also be provided an estimated delivery date for your bicycle.

Up until that commencement date you will be given the opportunity to review the build kit and finish options for your bike. We recognize that your preferences may change during the waiting period and are happy to adjust accordingly. However, the frame geometry and component details need to be finalized by the commencement date, so your bike is not delayed.

A non-refundable payment for the balance due on your bike, based on the final specifications, is due prior to your assigned build commencement date. We strive to meet our projected build and delivery dates, but many factors that are out of our control can impact the schedule. These factors include, but are not limited to, availability of raw materials for frame production, quality assurance testing, component availability, shipping and assembly delays. The delivery date is an estimate, not a guarantee. Delays in delivery are not grounds for order cancellation or refund.:eek:

[Coffee Rider]

i would have been the first to scoff at the prices. but if chinese/taiwanese made frames can cost $5500, a boutiquely boutique Serotta, made in the U.S. with living wages and health care (hopefully), can certainly be $7500.

Or maybe we go back to our annual blaming TPC for jacking up prices of all bikes and bike related things.

Although the prices are high, you can spend as much or more on a Legend Bertoletti and definitely more on a Passoni. Way back when I bought a Seven, the dealer (also a Serotta dealer) said it was partly ego that Ben wanted to have the most expensive bikes. I think the fact that were are five pages into this discussion over quite a lot of time is a good indication that Serotta still matters.

TPC hasn't helped inflate the prices of anything I've sold, so I neither thank nor curse them.

[mhespenheide]

I just don't see it as a value proposition. There are many other custom builders working in steel who offer the highest level of quality for a better value. Similar story for titanium or carbon. If you're a serious potential buyer, you've either got a tremendous emotional connection to Serotta or price just isn't at all an issue for you.

Another point: if we're talking about six thousand to eight thousand for a frame, I'd guess those potential buyers aren't looking at a second-hand frame. But, at some level, I have to wonder if Ben is competing against his own company's prior work. I like Serotta as a concept; even with my relatively limited resources, it wouldn't be all that hard to find and buy an older Serotta that fit me. Of course, it wouldn't be custom for me, but I play in a different pool...

[AngryScientist]

I see they have a location in Balston Spa NY - does anyone know - is any fabrication going on there or is it just office space or...?

It would be fun in the Spring to take a ride out there and drop in and see Ben and the crew if there is anything going on.

[KonaSS]

Frameset (frame, fork, headset, seat clamp, axles) prices start at $6695 (steel); $7545 (titanium) including custom design fees.

As my mom would say, these seem like bikes for people with more money than sense.

[Buzz Killington]

Warning: This is just guesswork from what I’ve read. And only for the Ti bikes.
The tubing is manipulated in China or Taiwan (don’t know tubing origin)
Tubes are sent to a builder in the USA to be cut/mitered/coped
Tubes sent to another builder to be welded (not in Ballston Spa HQ)
Painted frames sent to another builder for paint
Frames sent back to Serotta for final delivery to customer.

I can’t justify the price at my poverty level, but the bikes are gorgeous.

[PaMtbRider]

I am a Serotta fan boy. I love my Ottrott. If money was no object, I still wouldn't buy one. I see nothing that even remotely justifies the inflated cost.

[CNY rider]

I am a Serotta fan boy. I love my Ottrott. If money was no object, I still wouldn't buy one. I see nothing that even remotely justifies the inflated cost.

50 something physician (not a dentist but close) so I think I'm the target market, or at least that was always the running joke.
And I love Serotta......yet not tempted by this at all.
I think that's a problem for this new iteration of the company.

No22 is also local, many ex-Serotta guys and built me an incredible bicycle in their factory from start to finish for quite a bit less money.

[William]

Although it doesn't really matter to me since I'm already set on ordered bikes and have one that Ben built, does anyone know whether Ben is at least building the steel bikes himself? That would make the price seem somewhat more reasonable even though I think that's the most expensive steel frameset around.

Don't take this a gospel, but people who were close to ground zero for a number of years had commented to me that... "he hadn't weilded a torch in years". True or not it doesn't mean he doesn't know how to design a bike.

If you have the scratch to throw down to be on the list and you are good with it, go for it, I'm sure it will ride nice. But there are a lot of great/better options out there for quite a bit less coin.

It just boils down to what ya got and whether you're comfortable throwing it down.:banana:





W.

[nmrt]

If this is true, the carbon footprint on the frames would be a LOT. Might as well but a carbon frame then. :p

Warning: This is just guesswork from what I’ve read. And only for the Ti bikes.
The tubing is manipulated in China or Taiwan (don’t know tubing origin)
Tubes are sent to a builder in the USA to be cut/mitered/coped
Tubes sent to another builder to be welded (not in Ballston Spa HQ)
Painted frames sent to another builder for paint
Frames sent back to Serotta for final delivery to customer.

I can’t justify the price at my poverty level, but the bikes are gorgeous.

[EB]

Isn’t that what a new Sachs or a Peg is going for these days? To say nothing of a top tier option like Seven or Mosaic…

[duff_duffy]

I don’t know…I love Ben’s work, but those dropouts….ugh. This is what he did years ago, bring these back!

[Web1111a]

Just checked the web site saw no reference to steel

Are they showing on website only titanium?

[Pegoready]

Warning: This is just guesswork from what I’ve read. And only for the Ti bikes.
The tubing is manipulated in China or Taiwan (don’t know tubing origin)
Tubes are sent to a builder in the USA to be cut/mitered/coped
Tubes sent to another builder to be welded (not in Ballston Spa HQ)
Painted frames sent to another builder for paint
Frames sent back to Serotta for final delivery to customer.

I can’t justify the price at my poverty level, but the bikes are gorgeous.

Dang that's $1000 in needless shipping alone.

[Blown Reek]

For those prices, you should at least get an internally routed brake hose, not some eyesore of an externally run one. What a cheap looking execution. There is absolutely nothing inspiring about those bikes, except the nostalgia it stirs up within a small section of the custom bike buying public.

[KonaSS]

For those prices, you should at least get an internally routed brake hose, not some eyesore of an externally run one. What a cheap looking execution. There is absolutely nothing inspiring about those bikes, except the nostalgia it stirs up within a small section of the custom bike buying public.

I didn't even notice that at first. The disc fork isn't even internally routed! Even the most basic of disc bikes with a carbon fork has this. This whole thing feels like a desperate last grasp for.......money, prestige, relevancy?

I don't know the motivation is exactly, but maybe he needs some better advisors who know today's market. Or maybe they sell like hotcakes, and I don't know cause Serotta never was my jam. :confused:

[huck*this]

A buddy of mine had a Prologue built up. He is in love!

https://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/184566719_1967025750126562_265858301480597069_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=mifg2GMnEtkAX9nSUxo&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=03_AVJkREknBe3ApMwpU-vmq5NCiswk9S6puFGXXIpR-GtlaQ&oe=6206B118
https://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/186317137_173414758033906_4834456687150193764_n.jp g?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=NsysW2QBdAUAX_QPxYn&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=03_AVKzEKVb3nJKNWnyKcknDTrec6Mwu8kF28v4J3OOdzh_ jA&oe=6208CC56
https://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/185243629_290118849371023_5244197729644342063_n.jp g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=P-2-RtQNhKAAX_Bfo1c&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=03_AVKwV9l4YdJpfLMp_tFI6ZcrPpyVLtPv7J-ZTWwLHCoU2w&oe=6205A606
https://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/186459670_1653576658177494_875126766236825444_n.jp g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=GTgZpfoBdK4AX-kpZbO&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=03_AVJgPKkaMIajuSUunI-lpebNYMGTu-m3f4nL2V8VOaImkQ&oe=620692BC

[Blown Reek]

Nice looking zip tie holding the rear hydro cable in place.

[oldpotatoe]

Those prices. Lol. GFL.

Haven't looked thru this entire thread and I am one to say, 'if ya don't like the $, don't buy it', but
Frameset (frame, fork, headset, seat clamp, axles) prices start at $6695 (steel); $7545 (titanium) including custom design fees.

Yeegads. Isn't a Custom Moots Routte 45 F/F 'about' $1500(+?) less and available?

[Hilltopperny]

I have a 54cm Race Ti/Pronto here that is electronic only I would move along to anybody feeling nostalgic for a lot less than the pricing on these bikes! I am sure they are nice bikes and ride wonderful, but over $6,000 for a steel frameset and well over $7,000 for Ti feels like price gouging. The thing is there is no shortage in any way for these types of high end framesets anywhere in the world...Ben got used to selling nice bikes at ridiculous prices and it tanked his brand multiple times. This would appear to be more of the same except this really has not gotten off the ground.

[Blown Reek]

Yeegads. Isn't a Custom Moots Routte 45 F/F 'about' $1500(+?) less and available?

Yes but you know what you don't get when you get a Moots? Ben!

"Ben himself reviews the information and begins the design process." "Ben will contact you to personally review the package with you."

Personally! I mean you get to speak to Ben personally! When you have nothing better to offer than anything else out there, you've gotta sell the sizzle, not the steak.

[oldpotatoe]

Yes but you know what you don't get when you get a Moots? Ben!

"Ben himself reviews the information and begins the design process." "Ben will contact you to personally review the package with you."

Personally! I mean you get to speak to Ben personally! When you have nothing better to offer than anything else out there, you've gotta sell the sizzle, not the steak.

Geeez, not EVEN gonna get into that. My experience with 'ben' is going on 15 years old.

I'd rather talk to the guy who's actually welding the bike...:)

[charliedid]

It's not "price gouging" if nobody needs it.

[Hilltopperny]

It's not "price gouging" if nobody needs it.Agreed, but it does seem like a poor attempt at it!

Sent from my SM-S127DL using Tapatalk

[charliedid]

Agreed, but it does seem like a poor attempt at it!

Sent from my SM-S127DL using Tapatalk

:)

[GParkes]

I shot them at an event earlier this month while talking with his representative.

Plus a poster earlier in the thread surmised that Ben could learn something if he followed the thread. I've seen that thought expressed in similar threads in the past.

To PDMtong . . . I have no trouble with the opinions that are expressed. My puzzlement is at the tone that comes out every time there is a thread about whatever Ben is--or is not--doing. It comes across as snarky. But I never seem to see any justification from those airing their snark on exactly why. Did they get stiffed on a deposit when the old Serotta went under? Did he cut in front of them in the refreshment stand line at NAHBS? I just don't get it. Plus, remembering my years as a mod here, I was not the only one to notice this.

With the big deposits, he's pretty obviously trying to raise capital for his start-up. It's not exactly a unique strategy, and it's obviously worked for him in the past. So why wouldn't he try it again?

If you don't like the way he does business, then don't buy a bike from him. Go elsewhere. Simple as that. Kinda like if you don't like the off-topic thread, don't read it.

Ben has had his share of successes–and failures. These bikes are too expensive for me now, so I would probably not be buying another one. But there seems to be this undercurrent of expectation of failure that ignores the string of very real successes he achieved in running his company for as long as he did.

I'm not apologizing for him–just puzzled by the hostility that seems to come out in every thread concerning Serotta in the 17 years I've been a forum member.

BBD

Well put Dave. I have known Ben very casually since 1995. He has taken time out of his schedule to do a few small favors for me when he was in the Hudson Falls location and later the Geyser Road shop. Not worth going into, but he gained nothing for doing what he did for me. I've had two of his frames, and my ex still has a custom Nova Special built in 1990. Big fan, looking to source an older one to revive. Would I spend this kinda jack on a frame from him or anyone else? No. But the "we know better than him tone" is uncalled for. He sinks or swims. His life and business, not ours.

[Doug Fattic]

Ben and I started framebuilding in the 70's and have been friendly to each ever since. He choose a completely different business model then mine. People often speak critically of the cost of a Serotta because it is above average compared to other builders. Part of the problem in the past was because his frames passed through a bike store that took a portion of the cost. I would propose that the problem isn't that Serotta's are over priced but custom frames in general are underpriced. If a plumber or electrician made them and charged their normal rates, Ben's pricing would seem cheap.

It should also be noted that a true custom one-off frame that is designed based on a fitting can be way more time consuming than when they are made in batches. I think this is an unappreciated benefit. I can remember in the past comments on this forum that some Serottas were designed wrong because they had high handlebar heights compared to the saddle. They gave a disparaging nick name to those bicycles. That is just the reality of some that are middle aged and not all that fast anymore. They want a bicycle that is comfortable to ride and they aren't going on any fast training rides anymore.

[BBB]

A buddy of mine had a Prologue built up. He is in love!

https://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/184566719_1967025750126562_265858301480597069_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=mifg2GMnEtkAX9nSUxo&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=03_AVJkREknBe3ApMwpU-vmq5NCiswk9S6puFGXXIpR-GtlaQ&oe=6206B118
https://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/186317137_173414758033906_4834456687150193764_n.jp g?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=NsysW2QBdAUAX_QPxYn&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=03_AVKzEKVb3nJKNWnyKcknDTrec6Mwu8kF28v4J3OOdzh_ jA&oe=6208CC56
https://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/185243629_290118849371023_5244197729644342063_n.jp g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=P-2-RtQNhKAAX_Bfo1c&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=03_AVKwV9l4YdJpfLMp_tFI6ZcrPpyVLtPv7J-ZTWwLHCoU2w&oe=6205A606
https://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/186459670_1653576658177494_875126766236825444_n.jp g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=GTgZpfoBdK4AX-kpZbO&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=03_AVJgPKkaMIajuSUunI-lpebNYMGTu-m3f4nL2V8VOaImkQ&oe=620692BC

That's a nice looking bike!

[fiamme red]

I'm sure many of you got the Serotta update email today.I didn't get it, but I just saw this:

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/announcements/2022/01/13/serotta-cycling-announces-new-trade-policies#.YeOARP7MK70

…Next, Serotta is lifting its complete-bicycle-only policy accommodating frameset sales on a limited basis.

Commenting on supply chain concerns, Serotta offered, "We have orders placed for all top tier component groups from the leading suppliers, but like everyone else, do not expect deliveries to match our demand. So, we've made some adjustments to our policies to make it possible for more cyclists to enjoy a new Serotta. Many cyclists wishing to purchase a new rim brake model have a garage full of wheels and highly serviceable components already in hand and simply do not need or want a completely new set of components. With supply shortages expected to continue into 2023 for disc brake models, offering frameset sales enables the determined shopper to directly source individual components from anywhere in the world."

Of course, Serotta's primary concern is always for the safety of the cyclist. Consumers who purchase framesets will have to sign an agreement that they understand and accept the risks and responsibilities inherent in the assembly of a bicycle…:rolleyes:

[charliedid]

I didn't get it, but I just saw this:

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/announcements/2022/01/13/serotta-cycling-announces-new-trade-policies#.YeOARP7MK70

:rolleyes:

Never heard of such a thing.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Never heard of such a thing.

Sounds like he's guarding himself against getting sued if somebody buys a frame, assembles the bike themselves, then goes out and trashes it and alleges faulty design. I think if you're a small shop (and he is now) and have been sued before (which I bet he has in 40+ years in business) for something like this, and may be selling bikes to rich people who don't have a lot of bike expertise, then it's a legit concern.

It does happen. Why do you think you have "lawyer tabs" on your forks nowadays? That's exactly what happened.

BBD

[charliedid]

Sounds like he's guarding himself against getting sued if somebody buys a frame, assembles the bike themselves, then goes out and trashes it and alleges faulty design. I think if you're a small shop (and he is now) and have been sued before (which I bet he has in 40+ years in business) for something like this, and may be selling bikes to rich people who don't have a lot of bike expertise, then it's a legit concern.

It does happen. Why do you think you have "lawyer tabs" on your forks nowadays? That's exactly what happened.

BBD

I didn't say I didn't understand it, I said I never heard of anyone requiring a liability release form when purchasing a frames. Have you?

[Mark McM]

I've bought several frames (including custom), and I've never had to sign a waiver. However, just about all the bicycles and components I've gotten have carried disclaimers that they have to be installed and/or serviced by professional mechanics. Which leads to the question - what certifications are required to become a professional mechanic? For automobiles, the automakers have their onw certification courses, and of course you have to have an FAA certification to work on airplanes. There are a few bicycle mechanics schools, like Barnett's and UBI, but how many working bicycle mechanics have been to a program like that or have any type of certification?

[charliedid]

I've bought several frames (including custom), and I've never had to sign a waiver. However, just about all the bicycles and components I've gotten have carried disclaimers that they have to be installed and/or serviced by professional mechanics. Which leads to the question - what certifications are required to become a professional mechanic? For automobiles, the automakers have their onw certification courses, and of course you have to have an FAA certification to work on airplanes. There are a few bicycle mechanics schools, like Barnett's and UBI, but how many working bicycle mechanics have been to a program like that or have any type of certification?

No certification required but IMO should be.

PBMA is the only place I know of https://www.probma.org/pbma-mechanic-certification.html

[AngryScientist]

Even individual components and wheels have warning labels all over them and their owner's manuals. it's ridiculous CYA stuff IMO. There is really no reason Serotta needed to publish that kind of stuff on the web site. Just quietly include a note in the paperwork with the frame that indicates pro assembly required.

and haha - if anyone should certify bike mechanics it's youtube. Watch the minimum video clips and you are a pro!

[charliedid]

Even individual components and wheels have warning labels all over them and their owner's manuals. it's ridiculous CYA stuff IMO. There is really no reason Serotta needed to publish that kind of stuff on the web site. Just quietly include a note in the paperwork with the frame that indicates pro assembly required.

and haha - if anyone should certify bike mechanics it's youtube. Watch the minimum video clips and you are a pro!

You mean like the guy I watched about an hour ago because I was maybe interested in a one bolt Ritchey post? Hilarious and sad really.

[AngryScientist]

[/B]
You mean like the guy I watched about an hour ago because I was maybe interested in a one bolt Ritchey post? Hilarious and sad really.

link please?

[Mark McM]

PBMA is the only place I know of https://www.probma.org/pbma-mechanic-certification.html

I just checked out the PROBMA website. They have a "Find a Mechanic" feature, to find shops that have PROBMA certified mechanics. Very few shops in the southern New England area show up (not even larger ones like Wheelworks or Landry's), and none that I frequent. The only shop listed that I have actually set foot in is Quad Cycles.

[Mark McM]

and haha - if anyone should certify bike mechanics it's youtube. Watch the minimum video clips and you are a pro!

Several component and tool companies have their own YouTube channels, with instructions on installation and service of their products. Here's Campagnolo's and Park Tool's:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR8ASXXdLo78hJxiRAZi-zw

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzaZ1sPWEuZN-I8_XT6AH8g

[charliedid]

link please?

https://youtu.be/cKJtyIN4hyo :eek:

[duff_duffy]

I think a few of us are bookmarking this video;) figured it out without the video but remember a few curses along the way, not looking forward to doing it again but this will help!

https://youtu.be/cKJtyIN4hyo :eek:

[osbk67]

[/B]
You mean like the guy I watched about an hour ago because I was maybe interested in a one bolt Ritchey post? Hilarious and sad really.

I can't see how that video would be any use to anyone who has even less technical knowledge and aptitude than its creator, which would otherwise be the whole point of the exercise. Unless the exercise is in fact to put a video on YouTube...

[duff_duffy]

Well count me as having less technical knowledge;). Installed several hundred seats/posts in my life but the first one of these I had given to me in pieces and the step at 2:30 of video eluded me for some reason. Figured it out on own but video would have been nice. Post does work and look great once set up!

I can't see how that video would be any use to anyone who has even less technical knowledge and aptitude than its creator, which would otherwise be the whole point of the exercise. Unless the exercise is in fact to put a video on YouTube...

[charliedid]

I think a few of us are bookmarking this video;) figured it out without the video but remember a few curses along the way, not looking forward to doing it again but this will help!

I'm sure he means well.

I can't see how that video would be any use to anyone who has even less technical knowledge and aptitude than its creator, which would otherwise be the whole point of the exercise. Unless the exercise is in fact to put a video on YouTube...

I feel a little bad posting it but it just seems like you should have some level of competency before posting things like this online for the entire bike wrenching world to see and use.

[charliedid]

Well count me as having less technical knowledge;). Installed several hundred seats/posts in my life but the first one of these I had given to me in pieces and the step at 2:30 of video eluded me for some reason. Figured it out on own but video would have been nice. Post does work and look great once set up!

Sure but he mentions that you should use an Allen key (especially a tension one) and mentions ratings 12 nm while using a 5nm torque key. He also thinks that 31.6mm is the inner diameter not the outer. These things have consequences even if just trying to be helpful.

I'm just using it as an example not trying to shame the guy.

[duff_duffy]

Just wait until you see my video showing how to use coins, a knife, and cursing to hold my old moots seatpost clamp mechanism apart to install it! That will certainly bring some smiles to some and others will certainly denounce my tech skills. If I only knew how to upload to YouTube….

Sure but he mentions that you should use an Allen key (especially a tension one) and mentions ratings 12 nm while using a 5nm torque key. He also thinks that 31.6mm is the inner diameter not the outer. These things have consequences even if just trying to be helpful.

I'm just using it as an example not trying to shame the guy.

[Mark McM]

I can't see how that video would be any use to anyone who has even less technical knowledge and aptitude than its creator, which would otherwise be the whole point of the exercise. Unless the exercise is in fact to put a video on YouTube...

Interesting you should say this. The description of the video says:

This is my first YouTube video the reason I made it is because I was buying a new Ritchey WCS carbon 1-bolt seatpost and I was struggling to find a video on this item and how to fit, install or attach to my bike seat.

Also note that even after over 23,000 views of this video (and who knows how many of other videos he may have posted), the video creator has only 11 subscribers.


But yeah, this video is pretty useless.

[AngryScientist]

of course. we all know there is some very useful stuff on the internet, but the volume of junk is orders of magnitude higher. and porn, lots of porn.

in 2022, a critical thinking skill for anyone looking to learn something on the 'net is sorting through what is actually helpful and what is not.

as mark mentioned, the videos created by the OEMs are a great resource for learning something new with regards to bike stuff.

[oldpotatoe]

of course. we all know there is some very useful stuff on the internet, but the volume of junk is orders of magnitude higher. and porn, lots of porn.

in 2022, a critical thinking skill for anyone looking to learn something on the 'net is sorting through what is actually helpful and what is not.

as mark mentioned, the videos created by the OEMs are a great resource for learning something new with regards to bike stuff.

Not to mention that there is some real $ available for YT videos. About $5-$6 per 1000 views minus a cut to YT. Get 100,000 views, make some $. Some I frequent are in the 9 Million subscribers and a million+ views each ‘episode’. Some YT videos are just incredibly poor to some that are just plain false…..BUT, buy a go-pro or use yer phone, make £/€/$/¥….

One I watch, 2 ‘kids’ bringing wrecked, auctioned super cars back to life…NET worth in low 7 figures…

Another, 10.2 million subscribers, 1.2 million views last ‘episode’…that’s about $3500 per week…he’s also a big animal vet…and gun guy…videos about the later.

[mg2ride]

Reading this thread and the similar one at the salon, reminds me that the best business decision Ben ever made was to get OUT of the cycling forum business.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Ben could be standing on the corner handing out $100 bills and some here would be complaining because they are wrinkled. :rolleyes:

BBD

Reading this thread and the similar one at the salon, reminds me that the best business decision Ben ever made was to get OUT of the cycling forum business.

[Coffee Rider]

Reading this thread and the similar one at the salon, reminds me that the best business decision Ben ever made was to get OUT of the cycling forum business.


Definitely. This is a tough crowd as BBD pointed out with his $100 bill comment. People seem to get really worked up over anything Serotta.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bshell]

I'm not going to reread the entire thing but my take away from recent posts has been that the serotta based portion of the thread has been pretty reality based.

I didn't see anyone say Ben was a bad guy but the starts and stops he's had over the years, the marginal website, the price point comparisons to all of the fine builders available -it's pretty dead on. And I still wish him the best if making frames is what he wants to do.

It's okay to like/love the guy and his bikes and any friendships/one off interactions but skip the hyperbole if you want a real discussion.

It's been a mighty long time so I can't remember exactly how or when ben started hosting the forum(w/o any company participation iirc) but it was around for years before he did so he was never 'in' the forum business.

[laupsi]

Don’t know for certain, but thinking most who disparage Serotta have never ridden anything from the company, now or previous. I’ve been a avid cyclist since becoming a teenager. Now 56 years old and I have owned and ridden just about everything in terms of frame material, group set, wheels, geo and style; nothing that I have ridden from Ben has not been sublime coming out of his factory, stock or custom and yes I own both.

Let them complain; I am very happy w/the money Ive spent over the years on my BS bikes and frames. And that’s all that really matters!

[Buzz]

Ben could be standing on the corner handing out $100 bills and some here would be complaining because they are wrinkled. :rolleyes:

BBD

Quite true. Also quite true is that Serotta built beautifully engineered bikes, taking no short cuts with their fabrication or materials. We still have two Serottas in our garage and nearly twenty years later they ride as nicely as day one and their paint and finish is still fresh. We took a tour of the factory circa 2005-2007? And were impressed at the facilities and all the people working there. At that time there were transitioning into carbon fiber and showed us all the self designed and built jigs and manufacturing processes. It was pretty cool stuff, remarkable (and quite expensive looking) for a relatively small bicycle manufacturer. You got the sense that Ben was always pushing the envelope of manufacturing and engineering but without lessening quality standards. I had two long conversations with Ben on two different occasions both centered around difficult aspects of hiring the right employees, paying decent wages, healthcare benefits amongst other costs of simply running a business. I think the model of what he was trying to do was unfortunately done in by too many complicating factors. Happens, but doesn’t take away that the bikes he produced were as nicely designed and manufactured as any builder in the world could claim.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I think my hyperbole was dead on target. It's never anything disparaging said directly about him. It's more the tone, and the comments like snarky remarking on the zip-tie used to secure a brake line. Just cheap shots by keyboard warriors. And the same tone always comes up in any thread about anything Ben. He could be giving away his new bikes and the snark patrol here would still be taking shots at him.

Ben did indeed pay for the forum to the tune of several thousand dollars per years for at least 4 years, and I'm pretty sure longer. I became a mod in 2008 and he was paying for it then, and continued to pay for it until he graciously offered to let Keith A, myself and the other mods to take it private as the Paceline, which we did on February 6, 2012–so the tenth anniversary is coming up.

He could have just shut the whole thing down and deleted everything from his server. But he didn't, and he gave us time to find a new provider and arrange server transfer, and that's why you can still enjoy it. Plus never in those four years I had anything to do with him did he ever ask us to do anything to delete or edit any of the crap that people were posting about him then.

So no, he was never "'in' the forum business." . . . and he made some bad decisions and had some business problems during his 40 years of successfully running a cycling company. News flash–he's not perfect. But he did do it for 4*0*Y*E*A*R*S.

So far I haven't run into anybody on the forum who can prove they've done for longer–or even half as long.

BBD

I'm not going to reread the entire thing but my take away from recent posts has been that the serotta based portion of the thread has been pretty reality based.

I didn't see anyone say Ben was a bad guy but the starts and stops he's had over the years, the marginal website, the price point comparisons to all of the fine builders available -it's pretty dead on. And I still wish him the best if making frames is what he wants to do.

It's okay to like/love the guy and his bikes and any friendships/one off interactions but skip the hyperbole if you want a real discussion.

It's been a mighty long time so I can't remember exactly how or when ben started hosting the forum(w/o any company participation iirc) but it was around for years before he did so he was never 'in' the forum business.

[KonaSS]

Respectfully disagree about the tone. Many other bikes/product launches who are not Serotta get it all the time. Somehow it is a fun sport to completely crap on Sram, but you can't suggest that the latest Serotta offering misses the mark?

I don't think anyone has said anything but good things personally about Mr. Serotta. But objectively, from my armchair, he has made a few missteps since the haydays of Serotta with relaunches and side projects. I think it is totally fair to question this one as well, as this forum does with every other new bike/component launch.

I think my hyperbole was dead on target. It's never anything disparaging said directly about him. It's more the tone, and the comments like snarky remarking on the zip-tie used to secure a brake line. Just cheap shots by keyboard warriors. And the same tone always comes up in any thread about anything Ben. He could be giving away his new bikes and the snark patrol here would still be taking shots at him.

Ben did indeed pay for the forum to the tune of several thousand dollars per years for at least 4 years, and I'm pretty sure longer. I became a mod in 2008 and he was paying for it then, and continued to pay for it until he graciously offered to let Keith A, myself and the other mods to take it private as the Paceline, which we did on February 6, 2012–so the tenth anniversary is coming up.

He could have just shut the whole thing down and deleted everything from his server. But he didn't, and he gave us time to find a new provider and arrange server transfer, and that's why you can still enjoy it. Plus never in those four years I had anything to do with him did he ever ask us to do anything to delete or edit any of the crap that people were posting about him then.

So no, he was never "'in' the forum business." . . . and he made some bad decisions and had some business problems during his 40 years of successfully running a cycling company. News flash–he's not perfect. But he did do it for 4*0*Y*E*A*R*S.

So far I haven't run into anybody on the forum who can prove they've done for longer–or even half as long.

BBD

[titans]

So far I haven't run into anybody on the forum who can prove they've done for longer–or even half as long.

BBD[/QUOTE]

I think Richard Sachs has been building for almost 50 years. Not in the quantities Ben did but Richie is a one man shop. Well two man if you count J Bell. I still remember seeing his framesets at Toga when it was in alphabet city in NY. This was in the mid 70s.

[charliedid]

I'm not going to reread the entire thing but my take away from recent posts has been that the serotta based portion of the thread has been pretty reality based.

I didn't see anyone say Ben was a bad guy but the starts and stops he's had over the years, the marginal website, the price point comparisons to all of the fine builders available -it's pretty dead on. And I still wish him the best if making frames is what he wants to do.

It's okay to like/love the guy and his bikes and any friendships/one off interactions but skip the hyperbole if you want a real discussion.

It's been a mighty long time so I can't remember exactly how or when ben started hosting the forum(w/o any company participation iirc) but it was around for years before he did so he was never 'in' the forum business.

I tend to agree.

[Blown Reek]

It's more the tone, and the comments like snarky remarking on the zip-tie used to secure a brake line. Just cheap shots by keyboard warriors.

Zip ties are such an early-mountain bike hydro brake solution, and the fact that they're being used on such a "high end" product is insulting. Do you think that they can't do better than that? And then they have the audacity to charge such exorbitant prices? Maybe if you're a Serotta fanboy/Ben Serotta apologist there's nothing wrong with it, but to anyone else, it's really weak. Heck, you can get a Walty for much less money and still have a very Serotta-like externally routed brake housing. But then again, Ben won't personally review your documents or (most importantly) contact you personally!

Keep in mind that there's no snark about my comment, it's a direct statement on the fact that Serotta is charging so much for a custom frame that offers absolutely nothing "special" about it. You might pine for the glory days when Serotta was the top of the (clichéd dentist) food chain, but speaking of pining, in 1966 Al Bundy scored four touchdowns in a single game while playing for the Polk High School Panthers in the 1966 city championship game versus Andrew Johnson High School. You remember the days when Ben was on this forum, and Al remembers those touchdowns.

Sorry if people dissing Ben Serotta offends you so personally, but with all the good framebuilders out there, it seems that the only thing unique that a Serotta offers is the name on the downtube and lazy cable routing.

[bshell]

BBD

My apologies for being unclear. I have no knowledge about how forums are hosted etc. or what costs are associated and I was not trying to ignore the expense to Ben. The company participation comment was related to not joining any threads/conversations but that was so long ago I can't swear to it.

The shop I worked for was a dealer/had the Serotta size cycle etc. and I was lucky enough to pick up a beautiful 57x57 Legend Ti w/ 3D dropouts from the forum in @2000 or 2002.

Loved that bike. Their art was ahead of the curve to me.

[fiamme red]

Ben did indeed pay for the forum to the tune of several thousand dollars per years for at least 4 years, and I'm pretty sure longer. I became a mod in 2008 and he was paying for it then, and continued to pay for it until he graciously offered to let Keith A, myself and the other mods to take it private as the Paceline, which we did on February 6, 2012–so the tenth anniversary is coming up.You make it sound like pure altruism, but I'd guess that at least a few frames and bikes were ordered each year from Serotta thanks to the forum. Of course, I do appreciate very much that Ben sponsored this forum for such a long time.

[Adam]

Hi All,

I am a current Serotta dealer and now have a new Duetti Ti on the floor for demo, display and have sold a few to happy clients. The new bikes have some very sophisticated manipulation that you don’t see on other bikes to this extent. Triple butting, swaged, square and tapered, etc. We get the framesets from Serotta and build them to customer spec. Leadtime is the fastest among my other ti vendors, communication clear, and it is a nice thing to be communicating with Ben directly in the design process. All frames are custom from tubing selection to geo to finish. Pricing is similar to Moots RSL in stock geo, the same or less when going custom with Moots (as a point of comparison only here). The new bikes are Legend Ti for 2022 and beyond for sure. We won’t be lighting the world on fire with these, but they make a great addition to our offerings and choice is good.

I chose to have external cable routing on our bike because I like it and enjoy to the convenience of it. Wouldn’t be surprised if this example wears a few different groupsets in its service. Currently a record 12 Hydro. Can’t wait to put it though it’s paces in the Spring.

You can absolutely get internal brake cable routing if you wish, and not at an up charge. The customer bikes delivered had internal routing. Paint does add cost, but it adds cost with all other vendors as well.

I have been selling Serotta bikes in one way or another for over 20 years and have been there through the ups and downs. In all that time, the product never suffered and has been always best in class (or on par). These new frames aren’t as elegant as what he was doing in the early 2000’s to my eye but are brutally elegant and well thought out.

Am glad to have this working relationship with Ben and glad to offer VERY unique bikes to our clientele.

[benb]

Some of the pictured bikes tick off every box for me perfectly..

But even as a former Serotta owner the price is just way too out there and the whole process of actually getting one wouldn't work for me.

Personally I'm not sure all the extra tube manipulation matters for me.. and for this style of bike I can go get a Seven built locally and have a much easier time going through the process and save giant piles of money.

I'm a big "meh" on the internal cables debate. To me internal cables are a distinct negative... maybe they work for you if you pay someone else to do your maintenance and really think the aero or cosmetic benefits are worth it. For me on a custom bike I would specifically request everything to be the easiest maintenance possible, cause there's zero reason for me to believe internal cables will make me faster and mountains of evidence that internal cables are a PITA for me. (Both my current road bikes have internal cables.)

Mostly a Ti bike like this is a throwback/nostalgia machine for me that should be a low maintenance very easy to live with bike that just has a fantastic ownership experience.

The starts/stops and all the weirdness about the brand relaunching make me kind of gun shy given the high costs.

Weird thing too.. when I bought my Serotta 14 years ago it was borderline stupid financially for me personally. Other than the argument that all these bikes are stupid buys no matter what your personal finances are (depreciation, chance of the bike being wrong, poor performance/price ratios, etc.. ) , these days none of these would be hard financially and yet the price looks more silly.

[Adam]

Gotcha Benb Purchasing a Serotta is as easy as Seven when one works thru us. We also do a lot of business with them. Not your flavor and that is fine!

[mstateglfr]

I would propose that the problem isn't that Serotta's are over priced but custom frames in general are underpriced. If a plumber or electrician made them and charged their normal rates, Ben's pricing would seem cheap.


Curious how many hours are typically spent on a custom steel frame by an established builder. Lets go with a lugged frame since that will add time for manipulation and thinning(but not overly ornate finshing). So a lugged steel rim brake road frame.

Figure $375 for tubes, lugs, and silver- I havent looked recently, but just added a good bit to what I have seen quality tube sets cost in the past.

I see a sweetspot of frame prices between $2500 and $5000, typically.
So subtracting tubing and silver, thats 28 hours of billable work at $75/hour on the low end and 61 hours of billable work at $75/hour on the high end.
Do custom geometry lugged rim brake road frames designed and built by established builders take 61 hours?

[nmrt]

Hi Adam,
Can we see more pictures of the frame? Would love to see more of the tube manipulations! That squarish TT looks cool.
BTW, is it supposed to be a secret as to who is building these frames? And whether the tubing is US sourced or not?
Thank you!

Hi All,

I am a current Serotta dealer and now have a new Duetti Ti on the floor for demo, display and have sold a few to happy clients. The new bikes have some very sophisticated manipulation that you don’t see on other bikes to this extent. Triple butting, swaged, square and tapered, etc. We get the framesets from Serotta and build them to customer spec. Leadtime is the fastest among my other ti vendors, communication clear, and it is a nice thing to be communicating with Ben directly in the design process. All frames are custom from tubing selection to geo to finish. Pricing is similar to Moots RSL in stock geo, the same or less when going custom with Moots (as a point of comparison only here). The new bikes are Legend Ti for 2022 and beyond for sure. We won’t be lighting the world on fire with these, but they make a great addition to our offerings and choice is good.

I chose to have external cable routing on our bike because I like it and enjoy to the convenience of it. Wouldn’t be surprised if this example wears a few different groupsets in its service. Currently a record 12 Hydro. Can’t wait to put it though it’s paces in the Spring.

You can absolutely get internal brake cable routing if you wish, and not at an up charge. The customer bikes delivered had internal routing. Paint does add cost, but it adds cost with all other vendors as well.

I have been selling Serotta bikes in one way or another for over 20 years and have been there through the ups and downs. In all that time, the product never suffered and has been always best in class (or on par). These new frames aren’t as elegant as what he was doing in the early 2000’s to my eye but are brutally elegant and well thought out.

Am glad to have this working relationship with Ben and glad to offer VERY unique bikes to our clientele.

[DHallerman]

I see a sweetspot of frame prices between $2500 and $5000, typically. So subtracting tubing and silver, thats 28 hours of billable work at $75/hour on the low end and 61 hours of billable work at $75/hour on the high end. Do custom geometry lugged rim brake road frames designed and built by established builders take 61 hours?

Interesting billable rate you chose at $75/hour. Clearly, that's not a low number. But at this point in economic time, I suggest that skilled artisans would be underpaid at that rate.

My only comparison right now for what someone's time might be worth is my wife, a self-employed architect whose billable rate, for projects gauged that way rather than by a flat rate, is $150/hour. In essence, she's another creative artisan.

It seems unfair to bike builders. But perhaps such an underlying rate around half of my spouse's is all the market will give them.

Dave, who says most people undervalue architects so if you think her rate is high in this world you might be mistaken but that's a longer conversation

[Dude]

Pricing is way, way low.

Factor in all the machinery, insurance, real estate, prepping tubes, finish work, braze-ons, machining the tubes, filing the what-have-yous, alignment (alignment tables are freaking expensive) and for a serotta, the masking/bead blasting. Yes that's time but those all use things that cost money beyond the tubes/lugs/silver - arguably the least expensive part of the operation.

Back in Serotta's peak (early 00s) it took about 25+/- people about 30+ hours (depending on paint) of working time to go from tube stock to finished/prepped bike frame.

Curious how many hours are typically spent on a custom steel frame by an established builder. Lets go with a lugged frame since that will add time for manipulation and thinning(but not overly ornate finshing). So a lugged steel rim brake road frame.

Figure $375 for tubes, lugs, and silver- I havent looked recently, but just added a good bit to what I have seen quality tube sets cost in the past.

I see a sweetspot of frame prices between $2500 and $5000, typically.
So subtracting tubing and silver, thats 28 hours of billable work at $75/hour on the low end and 61 hours of billable work at $75/hour on the high end.
Do custom geometry lugged rim brake road frames designed and built by established builders take 61 hours?

[Coffee Rider]

It's definitely not a profession for those looking to maximize their income.

Pricing is way, way low.

Factor in all the machinery, insurance, real estate, prepping tubes, finish work, braze-ons, machining the tubes, filing the what-have-yous, alignment (alignment tables are freaking expensive) and for a serotta, the masking/bead blasting. Yes that's time but those all use things that cost money beyond the tubes/lugs/silver - arguably the least expensive part of the operation.

Back in Serotta's peak (early 00s) it took about 25+/- people about 30+ hours (depending on paint) of working time to go from tube stock to finished/prepped bike frame.

[Doug Fattic]

Curious how many hours are typically spent on a custom steel frame by an established builder. Lets go with a lugged frame since that will add time for manipulation and thinning(but not overly ornate finshing). So a lugged steel rim brake road frame.

Figure $375 for tubes, lugs, and silver- I havent looked recently, but just added a good bit to what I have seen quality tube sets cost in the past.

I see a sweetspot of frame prices between $2500 and $5000, typically.
So subtracting tubing and silver, thats 28 hours of billable work at $75/hour on the low end and 61 hours of billable work at $75/hour on the high end.
Do custom geometry lugged rim brake road frames designed and built by established builders take 61 hours?
Dude in his post got the conversation going in the right direction. Before I talk about how many hours it takes to build a frame (and that number varies a lot between builders), I need to explain why few enter the craft full time. I've been teaching framebuilding classes ever since I came back from learning those skills in England in the mid 70's. Since the early aughts I've been doing them almost full time. I'm the most likely place someone with framebuilding ambitions will go to learn. My classes are longer and more thorough, I've got more teaching education degrees and certifications and experience of all kinds. And after their training in my shop is over they can practice and refine those skills at our frame shop in Ukraine making bicycles for pastors. Those that are the most serious find me and those that can't be inconvenienced by long drives to get here or time away from family don't bother to come. Being somewhat invisible weeds out the riff raff so I can concentrate on the most motivated that know exactly who I am even though I don't have a website with pictures.

I mention that because even though I get around 10 students a year, very few ended up being pro builders. And if they did, they quit after awhile because their work effort to pay ratio was too poor. The majority of my students come with ambitions of making more frames in the future - possibly for income. The math just doesn't work out. The reasons for that need to be spelled out in another post. If someone were to take a frame building business plan to the bank to get a loan to get started, their proposal would not be accepted if their income was based on selling frames between $2,500 to $5,000. There are too many expenses that take away profit from income. And a lot of time needs to be spent that isn't directly involved in making a frame.

[Adam]

Ben’s tubes are sourced from Taiwan and shaped/butted/swaged to his specs.

I know the frames are welded in upstate NY, but I don’t know by who. I can ask I suppose.

[AngryScientist]

Welded water bottle bosses. Very good! Too many Ti frames come with rivnutted bosses and they dont last. welded is the way to go!

[Hilltopperny]

Ben’s tubes are sourced from Taiwan and shaped/butted/swaged to his specs.



I know the frames are welded in upstate NY, but I don’t know by who. I can ask I suppose.Pretty sure it is/was Carl Schlemowitz/Vicious Cycles in New Paltz. They have worked together in the past.

Sent from my SM-S127DL using Tapatalk

[weisan]

Hi All,

I am a current Serotta dealer

Hi Adam pal, thank you for stepping forward to introduce yourself. I wish you and Ben success in working through the new business model.

[NHAero]

I wish Ben success. I had a Concours for a while and it was a very nice riding bike.

I've had a custom Ti frame made in 2021 and have a deposit in for another. Ben's price is about $2K higher. I personally don't see the value there. I do think that custom frames are a bargain item. Dave Anderson sent me weekly links to the build process for my gorgeous custom stainless bike, and I couldn't understand how he made a business out of it. I think folks like Mr. Kirk and Mr. Bingham and the Firefly team have figured out scores of efficiency steps to get things done cost-effectively while maintaining top quality.

I have asked for external brake hose routing, so when the new bike is built, I will post pix with trigger warnings for the aesthetes :) Here's one of those hideous Firefly (https://cyclingtips.com/2020/08/bikes-of-the-bunch-firefly-ti-carbon-with-dotted-anodisation/) bikes with external hose routing.

[Blown Reek]

Here's one of those hideous Firefly (https://cyclingtips.com/2020/08/bikes-of-the-bunch-firefly-ti-carbon-with-dotted-anodisation/) bikes with external hose routing.

That's because (according to) Firefly (they) can't do an internal route on the Ti/Carbon model. And I agree that it's hideous.

Needless to say that's why I went with rim brakes when I had my Ti/Carbon built, because having an externally routed hose kills the aesthetics on such pretty bike. Fancy it up all you want with those "special" guides, but when the hose is still crooked, it looks like an afterthought. At least the fork is partially internal, unlike the Serotta.

[oldpotatoe]

I wish Ben success. I had a Concours for a while and it was a very nice riding bike.

I've had a custom Ti frame made in 2021 and have a deposit in for another. Ben's price is about $2K higher. I personally don't see the value there. I do think that custom frames are a bargain item. Dave Anderson sent me weekly links to the build process for my gorgeous custom stainless bike, and I couldn't understand how he made a business out of it. I think folks like Mr. Kirk and Mr. Bingham and the Firefly team have figured out scores of efficiency steps to get things done cost-effectively while maintaining top quality.

I have asked for external brake hose routing, so when the new bike is built, I will post pix with trigger warnings for the aesthetes :) Here's one of those hideous Firefly (https://cyclingtips.com/2020/08/bikes-of-the-bunch-firefly-ti-carbon-with-dotted-anodisation/) bikes with external hose routing.

A BIG part of it is whether or not the frame/bike is sold through a dealer network or direct.
If via a dealer network, the 'margin' a builder receives is MUCH lower than if the builder sells direct. Since the reseller/dealer has to make some sort of margin as well.

So serotta is mostly direct with 'some'/few dealers(Adam) but the vast majority will be sold direct..with a corresponding 'double' margin when compared to a those sold to a dealer..

[NHAero]

That's because (according to) Firefly (they) can't do an internal route on the Ti/Carbon model. And I agree that it's hideous.

Needless to say that's why I went with rim brakes when I had my Ti/Carbon built, because having an externally routed hose kills the aesthetics on such pretty bike. Fancy it up all you want with those "special" guides, but when the hose is still crooked, it looks like an afterthought. At least the fork is partially internal, unlike the Serotta.

Hideous is in the eye of the beholder. I think Firefly did an elegant job. So did Dave Anderson on my stainless frame (https://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1698017151&stc=1&d=1610919990). The hose is routed between the shift cables. I spend a lot more time riding than looking at my bikes :-)

[mstateglfr]

Interesting billable rate you chose at $75/hour. Clearly, that's not a low number. But at this point in economic time, I suggest that skilled artisans would be underpaid at that rate.

My only comparison right now for what someone's time might be worth is my wife, a self-employed architect whose billable rate, for projects gauged that way rather than by a flat rate, is $150/hour. In essence, she's another creative artisan.

I was just going off of the comment about the rate of a plumber or electrician.
In addition to experience, often times rates are based in part on certification and how difficult it is to obtain. An architect's license is more difficult to obtain than a welding certificate, for example. Not saying one job deserves more pay than another or anything like that, just laying out reality.

[AngryScientist]

I was just going off of the comment about the rate of a plumber or electrician.
In addition to experience, often times rates are based in part on certification and how difficult it is to obtain. An architect's license is more difficult to obtain than a welding certificate, for example. Not saying one job deserves more pay than another or anything like that, just laying out reality.

right, and to further complicate the math, in a production house you would not expect one person to build a complete frame or bicycle. presumably portions of the build that require less skill are completed by junior people and the highest paid craftsman are utilized for the portions of the job requiring the most skill.

[prototoast]

Interesting billable rate you chose at $75/hour. Clearly, that's not a low number. But at this point in economic time, I suggest that skilled artisans would be underpaid at that rate.

My only comparison right now for what someone's time might be worth is my wife, a self-employed architect whose billable rate, for projects gauged that way rather than by a flat rate, is $150/hour. In essence, she's another creative artisan.

It seems unfair to bike builders. But perhaps such an underlying rate around half of my spouse's is all the market will give them.

Dave, who says most people undervalue architects so if you think her rate is high in this world you might be mistaken but that's a longer conversation

$75/hour is great if you're just an employee. It's tricky if you're trying to run a whole business. In addition to the costs like tools/machinery/space, it's also the case that the actual building of the frames is only one small piece of the overall business.

Most small frame builders are also responsible for sales and marketing, customer support, accounting, etc. Can't just wake up in the morning, build frames for 8 hours, and clock out. Have to answer new inquiries, discuss build options, order supplies, pack and ship, etc.

Also, while established builders often have long queues of customers, getting to that point can be a challenge. Many new builders who try to make a go of it have trouble finding more than a handful of customers. So maybe it takes 20 hours to build a frame, but then it's a month before the next order comes in. How much do you have to charge to be sustainable doing that?

[Coffee Rider]

That's because (according to) Firefly (they) can't do an internal route on the Ti/Carbon model. And I agree that it's hideous.
.

Firefly can do it now. It's not listed as an option on the website yet.

[Doug Fattic]

I'll continue my comments on what it takes to be a builder. The amount of time it takes to build a frame can vary between less than a day and up to 100 or more hours. The builders I would want to build me a lugged frame (if I wasn't going to do it myself) take in the neighborhood of 100 hours per frame not including paint. The sweet spot for pros is in the 16 to 20 hour range. Nicely done but not immaculately done. I call those frames the 90 percenters. Done well enough that the average person doesn't notice the difference until they are pointed out. It is a sensible quality target for a broad range of enthusiasts. Some of the differences are aesthetic but some are functional too.

I'll give an example about mitering tubes. The fastest way is to do it by hand. However doing it by machine is more precise even though it takes more time. In addition, where to place the miters on the tube can be another consideration. I teach my students to roll the tube on the alignment table to find where it bows. A typical tube can bow up to 1/16" (it can be more or less). It is preferable to miter the tubes to put the bow in the plane of the frame. It is also according to philosophy (and not empirical testing) better to place the miter so the moment of inertia is located in the butted area. This means marking where the butts are located to know where to place the miters. None of this takes a lot of time but it is invisible and debatable how much difference it makes.

A rough guess on how much machinery would need to be bought to decently set up a shop would be around $20,000. That is how much one of my students paid for his setup. Training could easily be another $10,000. Many of my students have taken a class somewhere else before coming here and then in addition pay for transportation and living expenses to make a bunch more in Ukraine for several months (I'm sure there are no takers right now). Nobody takes on an apprentice and there is no production places like there used to be where one can get a start without prior training.

I can't speak for other builders but only about half my time was spent actually building/painting. There are a host of other duties required to run a business. It seems like I need to repair something all the time and at my income I can't afford professionals to do those tasks for me.

[Mark McM]

I'll continue my comments on what it takes to be a builder. The amount of time it takes to build a frame can vary between less than a day and up to 100 or more hours. The builders I would want to build me a lugged frame (if I wasn't going to do it myself) take in the neighborhood of 100 hours per frame not including paint. The sweet spot for pros is in the 16 to 20 hour range. Nicely done but not immaculately done.

I'm wondering how the economics of a 100 hour frame works. Assuming a 40 hours work week, and 50 working weeks per year, that would be 2 1/2 weeks per frame and 20 frames per year. At that rate, how would such frames have to be priced for the builder to make a decent living?

[jlwdm]

A builder is not building close to 40 hours per week.

Jeff

[DHallerman]

A builder is not building close to 40 hours per week.

Jeff

If you run you own business, a 40-hour week would sometimes be a blessing.

[mg2ride]

So far I haven't run into anybody on the forum who can prove they've done for longer–or even half as long.

BBD

I think Richard Sachs has been building for almost 50 years. Not in the quantities Ben did but Richie is a one man shop. Well two man if you count J Bell. I still remember seeing his framesets at Toga when it was in alphabet city in NY. This was in the mid 70s.[/QUOTE]

This comparison used to be made all the time back in the hay day of the Serotta forum. The 2 are completely apples and oranges. A comparison even of their time in "the business" makes no sense.

Also don't forget that ATMO spend much of his first few years inventing the frame lugs. :banana::banana::banana::banana:

[Lgibjones]

A bicycle for people who know bicycles and know what they want.

Not a NFT or marketing exercise.

[jlwdm]

If you run you own business, a 40-hour week would sometimes be a blessing.

I run my own business and work way more than that, but from what I have seen the actual bike building is not 40hrs per week.

Jeff

[Adam]

Just got word from the inside that Frank The Welder and Andy Keech (sp?) are holding the torches to Ben’s bikes currently. Vicious Cycles and Hot Tubes for finish work.