Road E-bike questions

[SoCalSteve]

Hi all,

Going down a bit of a rabbit hole here as my knee isn’t doing so great and having a bit of a hard time keeping up with my buddy at this point and yeah, I have an appointment to see my ortho doc later today, I feel the only option is going to be another knee replacement, the first one was a partial. Not quite sure this is the right time to be getting a surgery and then 3 months of physical therapy. The e bike may be a bridge until times are a bit safer here in LA.

Anyway...on to my questions:

It appears that there are 2 separate versions of e bike power. One that powers the crankset and one that powers the rear hub-wheel.

Are there advantages of one over the other?

It also appears that the one that works with the cranks only allows for a 1 x crankset. Is this correct?

It also seems that it’s much more powerful than the one that utilizes the rear hub? Is this correct?

As always, thank you all in advance!

Steve

[sg8357]

Cannondale e-bikes have doubles up front.
They sell Bosch, mid drive, crank motor.
and E-Motion, rear hub drive.

Cannondale uses a 142 oln rear wheel to get a double cranks
on their Bosch bikes.
Cannondale replaced a Bionix hub drive bike. Weight distribution of C'dale
with the mid/drive and down tube battery make the bike feel normal.
The Bionix with hub motor and rack mounted battery was really tail heavy.

[Dude]

Are you (OP) referring to a bafang or some kind of motor you retrofit to a "traditional" bike or are you referring to production ebikes you can buy?

A motor you retrofit to an existing bike limits you to 1x (I haven't researched it in a year or so, but at the time it was only 1x).

[SoCalSteve]

Are you (OP) referring to a bafang or some kind of motor you retrofit to a "traditional" bike or are you referring to production ebikes you can buy?

A motor you retrofit to an existing bike limits you to 1x (I haven't researched it in a year or so, but at the time it was only 1x).

Sorry I wasn’t clear, not retrofitting. I want a complete production road e bike.

Thanks!

[Fixed]

Steve there seems to be a lot of Italian bike companies
Here is an example
Cheers I hope you feel better
https://www.coloradocyclist.com/bianchi-e-bikes

[Ralph]

I chose a mid motor design for my wife, who recently had a knee replacement, because it put the extra weight of the Bosch motor in the middle and down low. I thought it would be better for balance and handling for her. So hers is called mid motor design. Hers is E assist only with 4 levels of assist....Econ, Tour, Sport, and Turbo. Haven't seen a mid motor you can ride throttle only, but maybe they make them, don't know.

I have seen some very powerful rear hub powered E bikes, and some you can operate with throttle only....no pedaling. While I prefer the mid motor design.....for where it puts the weight.....being able to go throttle only might be nice occasionally. E bikes now come in many varieties, with many different power systems.

EDIT addition....BTW.....You cannot pedal my wife's 250 watt E bike past about 19 or so MPH (I have tried....the motor just shuts down)....no matter how much you dial the assist up. It may go faster than that down hill coasting.....but it won't have E power. And it's geared to not go much faster than than (38X11). And I have seen E bikes that are kinda like mini motorcycles and will go much faster than my wife's bike. Did about 20 miles with her today (in this heat) on a smooth almost deserted paved trail....and she cruised along at 15-16 real easy, with her new knee.

[rinconryder]

delete

[Charles M]

The answer's are a bit all-over-the-place...

There are a few versions of crank driven, but they're universally better, more durable units than the hub types

The issues you might have are that any aid turns off at relatively low speeds... Not crawling, but possibly not group or "ride together" speeds though that may or may not apply here.

You can get a few really good complete stock bikes (Cannondale and Look), and there are also folks like Favaloro doing full custom E bikes as well...

The Cannondale and look (and most everything stock) tops out at 25KPH (15 mph) and both toss 250 WATTS at you.

Favaloro can spice things up...

[fried bake]

https://www.cannondale.com/en-us/bikes/electric#sort=%40msrp%20descending

Please see above—I’ve linked cannondale because they have decent variety of both types (hub and crank based).

In general, crank motors are capable of supplying more assist. Hub based bikes are uncommon above 250 watts, but aesthetically and in weight I think function and look more like analog bikes.

In the US, speed limits are defined by class. Hub based ebikemotion Ebikes do not exceed 20mph in the USA, but other crank-based ebikes go well beyond that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[barnabyjones]

This one is a lot of fun and mostly feels like a road bike.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/turbo-creo-sl

[Greenpea]

This one is a lot of fun and mostly feels like a road bike.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/turbo-creo-sl

I played around on the Evo model. Fitted with 38mm tires and a snappy wheelset. It had me rethinking my opinion of these bikes. I'm limited to the time I can commit each ride and it would allow me to greatly increase the distance I could cover. Still felt like I got a good workout in too.

[Ralph]

I think for your use you need one that can go at least 25 MPH. 500 Watts probably.

[SoCalSteve]

I think for your use you need one that can go at least 25 MPH. 500 Watts probably.

Yes, definitely!

My wish list:

500 watt chainset motor-allow me to go up to 25 mph
Double front crank - love to be able to keep my favorite gearing 50/34...12-28
Frameset - allow me to build it a la carte with my favorite drivetrain and components

Thoughts?

Thank you,

Steve

[JAGI410]

Middrive bikes feel more natural than rear hub drive. It's very noticeable to me at least. Cannondale's ebikes are pretty impressive. I haven't ridden their road bikes, but I've ridden the Canvas Neo and Treadwell models. Great range and super smooth.

[eddief]

for folks who want to do normal fastish club rides the two brands i see most are mid drive Spec Turbo Creo and rear hub Orbea Gain E. these are pedal assist so you gotta pedal...to get the assist. seems to me all these folks on both brands are having a really good time. they both come in around 29 pounds and are available in carbon and aluminum. would love to hear, read these two approaches in a detailed comparison. i currently ride a Roubaix and think the transition to Turbo Creo would be nearly seamless and the geo would be spot on for me (tall headtube). afraid of how much i might like it, so won't allow a test ride yet.

[rnhood]

I like the Specialized Creo as its well thought out and is class 3, so you can go to 28mph before the motor shuts off.

It doesn't matter whether you get a hub or crank motor, it's the class that defines its top speed. Most ebikes have 250W motors and that is plenty. Some have 250W batteries, some 500W batteries, some in between. The battery defines how far you can go. There should not be any problem riding a standard mountain metric (roughly 6k' of climbing) on 500W of battery power. Again, a 250W motor is plenty adequate - especially given that you will be imputing typically a modest 150-200W yourself. With 400+ watts going into your drive train, you will be climbing like Froome. A 500W crank motor will only add unnecessary weight, and power.

Some bikes have provisions for adding a second battery water bottle. These usually include a 250'ish Watt battery standard, and can be expanded to about 400W with the added water bottle battery. I believe the Creo is like this.

I prefer double chainrings but on an e'bike, a single is fine. Most will still provide a 1:1 granny gear so there should not be any problem climbing any hill on any bike route. I can't comment on loaded touring, and I suspect a touring e-bike is a little different. Maybe more battery capacity, more gear range, maybe stronger motor, etc.

[sfscott]

So since there is a speed limit on US bikes, does that mean it’s hackable?

What differences would one want to ask about among bikes like the Orbea, Bianchi, Pinarello etc.?

[54ny77]

Steve a buddy of mine bought the new Trek road e-bike,it's great. Has a roughly 30 mile range with the assist in the way he rides it. The bike itself is quite light for what it is

[ofcounsel]

I have the Creo myself. I can't really compare it to others, but I can tell you what I think about mine.

Likes:
Power is smooth, almost seamless,
I can tweak power and delivery characteristics through the Specialized app,
Plenty of assist on steep climbs to keep up with the best of my skinny friends,
Virtually no motor drag when riding with power off,
Can do 50-60 mile rides with juice to spare (riding in low and medium power mostly, which is enough for most situations). Can add external battery for more juice to complete a century ride if I wanted,
Light weight for an e-bike,
Shimano GRX (as equipped on my Creo) shifts smoothly,
1x gearing is simple, and
Future shock 2.0 front end takes a good amount of buzz out of the road.

Dislikes:
Uses "Road Boost" hub standard (110x12 front and 148x12 rear). Only bikes I'm currently aware that use this standard are the Specialized Creo's and the Focus e-bikes. Only 1 off-the-shelf aftermarket wheel option currently available (DT Swiss HGC 1400 Spline). But a custom solution is to build a wheelset with with regular mountain bike "boost" hubs and swap out the 15mm front end caps with 12mm end caps (DT Swiss 240 hubs do the trick and I'm sure other hubsets do as well, but confirm before buying).

The motor is whiny. High pitched noise is noticeable above the typical wind/drivetrain noise, particularly in turbo mode.

[Elefantino]

Steve,

We sell both Specialized and Cannondale; I've ridden most of the versions from both.

Creo power from the Brose motor is the most fluid, bar none. Makes you feel like you're JRA with your greatest legs. Lightweight. Real-world range with the battery extender will take you on all but a hilly century. The Future Shock 2.0 (the adjustable one) is really slick. It's my next (last) bike.

The SuperSix EVO's hub motor feels more like it pushes you along, like you're riding with the best tailwind ever. It's sort of fun and close to the Creo in weight. It has a double, not a 1x like the Creo. The two problems with the SuperSix: 1) RW battery range is ~50 miles and 2) they don't make it in our size. I rode the large and it felt like a clown car, although a nimble clown car.

The Synapse Evo is aluminum with the Bosch motor. Torquey, but also very heavy. Hard pass.

Sorry about the knee!

[eddief]

this is just the start of the revolution. how quickly will the e market evolve and what are the chances that today's Creo will tomorrow's all-so-ran? and what should we expect in next year(s). not every day i think about blowing $9K on a Creo Expert.

[SoCalSteve]

Steve,

We sell both Specialized and Cannondale; I've ridden most of the versions from both.

Creo power from the Brose motor is the most fluid, bar none. Makes you feel like you're JRA with your greatest legs. Lightweight. Real-world range with the battery extender will take you on all but a hilly century. The Future Shock 2.0 (the adjustable one) is really slick. It's my next (last) bike.

The SuperSix EVO's hub motor feels more like it pushes you along, like you're riding with the best tailwind ever. It's sort of fun and close to the Creo in weight. It has a double, not a 1x like the Creo. The two problems with the SuperSix: 1) RW battery range is ~50 miles and 2) they don't make it in our size. I rode the large and it felt like a clown car, although a nimble clown car.

The Synapse Evo is aluminum with the Bosch motor. Torquey, but also very heavy. Hard pass.

Sorry about the knee!

Thank you! Feeling a bit better, actually.

The Creo looks very cool, but I cannot get over the 1x crank and huge cassette. I’d much prefer a typical ( what’s typical these days )? 50/34 and a 12-28 cassette. That way I can use my 11 speed etap group.

Thoughts?

[Elefantino]

Thank you! Feeling a bit better, actually.

The Creo looks very cool, but I cannot get over the 1x crank and huge cassette. I’d much prefer a typical ( what’s typical these days )? 50/34 and a 12-28 cassette. That way I can use my 11 speed etap group.

Thoughts?
You're limited to the Mahle or Fazua motors, which allow for double cranksets. They both have 20 mph limits. (You can go 28 on the Bosch or Brose motors.) Trek, Bianchi and Orbea use those motors and I haven't ridden those.

I'm waiting on the nextgen Creo. Promise of smaller battery and more interface geegaws.. Probably for the 2023 model year.

[ofcounsel]

this is just the start of the revolution. how quickly will the e market evolve and what are the chances that today's Creo will tomorrow's all-so-ran? and what should we expect in next year(s). not every day i think about blowing $9K on a Creo Expert.

I get the concern. I picked up the Creo Carbon Comp myself and dropped $6.5k. Not 9k, but still not cheap.

I presume that the bikes will get lighter and more efficient in the next few years. But the Creo is so good right now that I figured I'd get more enjoyment out of it now than waiting for incremental increases in tech. I'm not getting any younger. And I've got a Levo MTB as well, so I figured... why not.

[palincss]

You're limited to the Mahle or Fazua motors, which allow for double cranksets. They both have 20 mph limits. (You can go 28 on the Bosch or Brose motors.) Trek, Bianchi and Orbea use those motors and I haven't ridden those.

I'm waiting on the nextgen Creo. Promise of smaller battery and more interface geegaws.. Probably for the 2023 model year.

That "20 mph limit" is a bit of a misstatement. The motor quits assisting at 20 mph. You can go faster than that, you just have to do it yourself (with or without gravity's help) without motor assist.

[Elefantino]

That "20 mph limit" is a bit of a misstatement. The motor quits assisting at 20 mph. You can go faster than that, you just have to do it yourself (with or without gravity's help) without motor assist.

I think he knows what I meant, but thanks for the clarification!

[SoCalSteve]

I think he knows what I meant, but thanks for the clarification!

Got it!!!

Does this sound crazy: buy this bike from Ribble...

https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribble-endurance-sl-e-sport/

Strip it. Replace everything with high end components and eTap, rebuild the rear hub with a high end carbon rim and have yourself a really tricked out e-bike for much less than the Creo.

Thoughts???

Edit: never mind, they want $1,200 for shipping!!!

[eddief]

all that etap and maybe carbon wheels you're working too hard and paying too much for a bike you can't even test ride.


Got it!!!

Does this sound crazy: buy this bike from Ribble...

https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribble-endurance-sl-e-sport/

Strip it. Replace everything with high end components and eTap, rebuild the rear hub with a high end carbon rim and have yourself a really tricked out e-bike for much less than the Creo.

Thoughts???

Edit: never mind, they want $1,200 for shipping!!!

[SoCalSteve]

all that etap and maybe carbon wheels you're working too hard and paying too much for a bike you can't even test ride.

I have all the components already. No extra outlay of $$$. But, you bring up a very good point regarding not being able to test ride one.

Gonna rethink all of this.

[pdmtong]

I have all the components already. No extra outlay of $$$. But, you bring up a very good point regarding not being able to test ride one. Gonna rethink all of this.

Get your knee fixed first, then if ok'd to ride, consider buying the e-bike.
Suppress the urge to customize it your way. Just get the e-bike that has the easiest resale since you are effectively looking for a longer term rental. if it becomes a permanent need, that's a different path.

[Ralph]

It's got a motor....lighter parts don't mean as much as on a regular road bike. And cheaper parts still work great. Electric or not. I get the desire to have nice parts though.

[SoCalSteve]

Get your knee fixed first, then if ok'd to ride, consider buying the e-bike.
Suppress the urge to customize it your way. Just get the e-bike that has the easiest resale since you are effectively looking for a longer term rental. if it becomes a permanent need, that's a different path.

First thing my ortho doc said to me as he walked in the door for my appointment was maybe it’s time to start thinking about an e-bike. He is an avid road cyclist.

Actually the knee is feeling a bit better, may have been an anomaly, but it sure scared me as I thought I might have messed up the partial or need a total. He said structurally my knee was very sound and the x rays didn’t show anything either.

Rode hard to Malibu a few days ago, knee didn’t hurt very much. We shall see.

Thanks all for the great knowledge and wisdom, much appreciated!

Steve

[pdmtong]

I wonder what the "target" range/assist/effort is for a middle of the line bike.

as was noted, light parts don't matter since it has a motor.

so for $6,000 can I expect to go do a metric with 5,000' of climbing at 170#s?

I would think people wanting to do a 10,000' century on an e-bike will be asked to pay for the privilege.

Of course over time they will get cheaper and go further with more power. But if you need one now, then don't wait but buy with resale in mind unless money to burn.

FWIW I like the bosch crank drive style more than the rear hub. Prefer the way the crank mounted motor responds and how the bike as a whole feels.

[Tommasini53]

My wife purchased a Specialized Evo and loves it. I rode it around and found that it handles very well. This model has the motor at the BB thus most of the added weight is centered at the bb. I don't know the ins and outs of wheel-motor vs. bb motor. But i do recommend you test ride an Evo. All in all i'm not a Specialized cheerleader....but have to say they really nailed the e-bike here. And it has been great with my wife being able to do longer rides together. good luck on your investigation.

[palincss]

so for $6,000 can I expect to go do a metric with 5,000' of climbing at 170#s?

I would think people wanting to do a 10,000' century on an e-bike will be asked to pay for the privilege.


Actually, there are range issues you need to consider.

From what I've read, you may be able to squeeze out a 100km with some of the e-assist bikes, but since that distance is a bit over their maximum range you'd have to ration out power assist, doing much of the ride without using the motor.

But for all but the newer light-weight "performance e-bikes" (like the Fazua or ebikemotion X35 equipped models) the weight of the bike, battery and motor are so great you need at least the minimum assist setting just to compensate for the weight of the bike; that effectively limits you to under 100km. How much under depends on how high you have the motor setting, and of course the hillier the ride the more you'll need to use the battery and the less feasible trying to operate entirely without assist becomes.

And regardless, I don't think there are any e-bikes out there that have enough range to be able to do a very hilly 100 miler.

[eddief]

those riding Creos and Gains are actually folks trying to stay in good shape. mostly they ration power for when they really need / want it. on flats and rollers they try to compensate the extra weight with their own power. after all a Creo is probably just a few pounds heavier than your average Rivendell...for instance :). on the other hand i can't watch how often they push the power button so i could be mistaken. on the other hand when they do push the button they can fly by me on the steeps.

Actually, there are range issues you need to consider.

From what I've read, you may be able to squeeze out a 100km with some of the e-assist bikes, but since that distance is a bit over their maximum range you'd have to ration out power assist, doing much of the ride without using the motor.

But for all but the newer light-weight "performance e-bikes" (like the Fazua or ebikemotion X35 equipped models) the weight of the bike, battery and motor are so great you need at least the minimum assist setting just to compensate for the weight of the bike; that effectively limits you to under 100km. How much under depends on how high you have the motor setting, and of course the hillier the ride the more you'll need to use the battery and the less feasible trying to operate entirely without assist becomes.

And regardless, I don't think there are any e-bikes out there that have enough range to be able to do a very hilly 100 miler.

[sg8357]

As a points of reference, 40 mile ride, 1200 feet climbing.
80%+ battery remaining on a Cannondale Synapse Neo 1.
That is a Bosch bike, assist mostly at zero on the flats.
1 or 2 out of 4 on the hills. 37lb bike

60 mile ride, 2200 feet climbing, 40% battery remaining
on a Bionx/Surly Troll. Note the Bionx has a regeneration
mode for use on the down hills. 45lb bike

[Keith A]

That "20 mph limit" is a bit of a misstatement. The motor quits assisting at 20 mph. You can go faster than that, you just have to do it yourself (with or without gravity's help) without motor assist.It depends on the "class" of the bike. The three classes are defined as follows:
Class 1: eBikes that are pedal-assist only, with no throttle, and have a maximum assisted speed of 20 mph.
Class 2: eBikes that also have a maximum speed of 20 mph, but are throttle-assisted.
Class 3: eBikes that are pedal-assist only, with no throttle, and a maximum assisted speed of 28 mph.
All classes limit the motor’s power to 1 horsepower (750W).

More details here...
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/everything-about-the-ebike/stories/three-class-ebike-system/#:~:text=Class%201%3A%20eBikes%20that%20are,assist ed%20speed%20of%2028%20mph.

[Keith A]

A friend's wife has a class 3 eBike, and he has looked into making it faster -- but this would void the warranty. I think, although not 100%, even swapping out the front chainrings and/or rear cassette to increase top end voids the warranty.

[pdmtong]

It’s an interesting question about range.

For sure the road bike looking designs are more limited since the battery is smaller to fit into the aesthetics

But why bother? If you get a Bosch motor ebike that looks like a hybrid and carry a second battery what does it matter you are sitting more upright or using some battery all the time ? You are motor powered and have a spare

Around here flat is 20/1000 but it’d be easy find 40/4,000 etc.

[Keith A]

Of course, you could go the route Simon Cowell did and get a SWIND EB-01 motorbike which has a 15,000w motor...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUAXtFXjEfs

Some good advice...
If you buy an electric trail bike, read the manual before you ride it for the first time.
I have broken part of my back.
Thank you to everyone for your kind messages.

— Simon Cowell (@SimonCowell) August 10, 2020

[palincss]

those riding Creos and Gains are actually folks trying to stay in good shape. mostly they ration power for when they really need / want it. on flats and rollers they try to compensate the extra weight with their own power. after all a Creo is probably just a few pounds heavier than your average Rivendell...for instance :). on the other hand i can't watch how often they push the power button so i could be mistaken. on the other hand when they do push the button they can fly by me on the steeps.

Yes, the Creos and Gains are light ones you can ride without power, so extending range by rationing is possible. It's difficult to do that with the high power / heavy weight ones like the two Trek road e-bikes from last year. One was just under 50 lb, the other around 40 lb. And there are plenty of them out there in that same weight class. Owners of those 50 lb Trek e-bikes i know tell me it's impossible for them to ride the bike without using the motor; it takes the first power setting just to overcome the weight of the bike; to get any benefit beyond an unassisted bike they have to use the 2nd power setting.

YMMV, obviously. I was at Trexlertown one time at ETR and we watched the tandem nationals. Everyone there in our group swears they saw Nelson Vails burn out when he took off. Our imaginations, obviously, but someone with his kind of power could probably ride a 50 e-bike with the motor turned off faster than me on the highest power setting.

[palincss]

It depends on the "class" of the bike. The three classes are defined as follows:
Class 1: eBikes that are pedal-assist only, with no throttle, and have a maximum assisted speed of 20 mph.
Class 2: eBikes that also have a maximum speed of 20 mph, but are throttle-assisted.
Class 3: eBikes that are pedal-assist only, with no throttle, and a maximum assisted speed of 28 mph.
All classes limit the motor’s power to 1 horsepower (750W).

More details here...
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/everything-about-the-ebike/stories/three-class-ebike-system/#:~:text=Class%201%3A%20eBikes%20that%20are,assist ed%20speed%20of%2028%20mph.

Agreed. What I was attempting to clarify was that the 20 mph (or in Europe, 15.5, or for Class 3 in the US 28 mph) was when the motor quit providing assist, not some kind of governor preventing the bike from exceeding 20 (or 28) mph. I have no doubt whatsoever that on a 10% descent for 0.4 mi you could easily drive a class 1 e-assist up to 34 mph.

[barnabyjones]

Agreed. What I was attempting to clarify was that the 20 mph (or in Europe, 15.5, or for Class 3 in the US 28 mph) was when the motor quit providing assist, not some kind of governor preventing the bike from exceeding 20 (or 28) mph. I have no doubt whatsoever that on a 10% descent for 0.4 mi you could easily drive a class 1 e-assist up to 34 mph.

I regularly hit 35 on any decline riding this:

https://www.aventon.com/products/aventon-level-commuter-ebike