Too Tall - I need your help

[Roy E. Munson]

In an earlier post, you suggested this workout:

10-20-30-20-10's
(do multiple sets with at 6ish mins. between sets.)
(using small ring and beginning in your 17, shift as needed)
(if you can do these on a shallow hill...BONUS!)

1. 10 seconds on , 10 seconds off
2. 20 seconds on, 20 seconds off
3. 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off
4. 20 seconds on, 20 seconds off
5. 10 seconds on, 10 seconds off

Could you help me with the science behind it, or what it's designed to do?

Thanks!

[Dr. Doofus]

Without information regarding the intensity and cadence of the intervals (although he does specifiy little ring, which suggestst one option) definitive answers are not possible (but then again, this is Too Tall's to answer). However, some basic points:

1) Efforts of less than :30 stress the ATP/CP system. Significant lactate accumulations usually do not occur, unless the efforts of of high intensity and with minimal recovery.

2) These short efforts emphasize muscle fiber and motor unit recruitment, as the athlete must recruit large numbers of muscle fibers to overcome gravity or inertia as s/he starts the short acceleration.

3) Significant lactate accumulation is not a factor *if* there is sufficient recovery (3:1) between efforts. Relatedly, full effort (max fiber and motor unit recruitment) is only possible with full recovery. Anything else is a series of short sub-maximal efforts with limited recovery, which have their uses...

Such As:

1) The Doc did these as a college swimmer, and has done them with an SRM with a couple of elite TT fiends. :10 and :15 efforts with :10 and :15 recoveries at a high cadence and just above LT power. The result, with the limited recovery and sub-maximal power output, is a sustained effort of say 10 minutes at a higher wattage than the athlete can maintain in a long interval. For strong , experienced athletes only.

2) Sub-maximal sprints. The short recovery prevents these from becoming true power* workouts. Basically, a form of lactate tolerance training, as the sprints are at a higher wattage than a 1 or 2 minute interval, but much lower than a sprint. Due to the wattage cost of acceleration (see the discussion about the jerk's powermeter day) these are quite taxing. For a real-world payoff, this type of training is for the crit/kermesse monster who needs to be able to "sprint" in and out of corners on short rest. Doing them on a hill emphasizes overcoming gravity, upping the strength component of the power equation.

3) Low power/high cadence. Doing such a workout in a small gear at low wattages emphasizes high acceleration of cadence, relaxing the hamstrings, muscle fiber and motor unit recruitment and coordination.

4) Low-to-medium power/low cadence: Strength Work. Seated, 53x15 or higher. The value would be limited...longer duration would be better for improving bike-specific strength.



Doof


*power = in a pure physiological sense, the combination of strength and speed. In the bike world, the only power athletes are match sprinters. A :10 sprint is a power effort. Power training, in a pure sense, comes in the weight room and in plyometrics (which have no real use in cycling).

[Too Tall]

These are short intervals designed to raise Lactate Threshold without being to intense in duration and effort (power) to cause overload and subsequent adaptation. Typical "tune up" interavls or "I don't have alot of time" intervals.

On the other hand. An interval designed to develop explosive power would look like this:
*After 30 mins. of fairly intense warmup:
1. From <5 mph. Seated in a 53X14/13
2. Accelerate all out up a 4-8% hill for 1/10th mile or about 45 seconds.
3. Repeat or stop if your form is not excellent.

Don't do these!

Science? Whazzat? All kidding aside, have fun with it and do the intervals. Learn more on your own about various types and what they are for. Some are to train for power, others are for ability to handle high cardiac stress levels. It is all about maximizing your ability to reach goals and plaster that stupid smile on your face!!!

One reason Mrs. Too Tall trains hard is because she like to recreational ride at a fast pace with no pain...go figure...but I can see her point. Your goal to not get popped on hills is a GREAT target. Stay focused.

Did that help? There are some awesome web forums dedicated to this topic too.

[Dr. Doofus]

Too Tall --

I suspected these were the same as what I noted in #1 -- a sneaky way of raising LT. What I'm wondering about, however, is how these stimulate adaptation without overload...that seems contradictory...when I've/he've used :10-:30 efforts as LT training, its always been *above* LT power output, and they are very strenuous efforts....

A needless tech point, but have you seen blood lactate data on the workout you describe? I and he would like to go over that....

[Roy E. Munson]

Thanks gentlemen, just wanted to verify what I already know, or "think" I know against what others know.

Doofus - I am of the same understanding as you on your last post. Once over the :15 point, you're in LT work, essentially.

Too Tall, I asked not to badger or pick holes in your post, but I wanted to see why you'd recomend this for Louis in the other thread. My opinion of Louis problem is that he's essentially putting up the house before he lays the foundation and needs to revisit some basic interval work.

[Louis]

So REM, what is your definition of "basic interval work?" The Pyramid scheme described above seems pretty basic to me, but I'm hardly an expert.

Louis

[Dr. Doofus]

Work over :15 (fifteen seconds is what I and he meant) wouldn't put you in the LT ballpark...:15 is still a pure non-robic (since technically, no cellular reaction happens without oxygen, "anaerobic" is a misnomer..."non-robic" came into vogue a few years back) effort. Now, 15:00 could be a LT interval...a TT that takes a rider 15:00, however, is not an LT effort, as muscle ph will drop and lactic acid content rise over the course of that 15:00...why GH excells at that kind of short TT....


The Doc thinks that intervals of any stripe are the icing, not the cake. Build up three or even four months of base, then start go-go-crankin...and then only with the longer LT stuff...for the short stuff, the Doc is of the opinion that hobbyist athletes with other stresses to handle are best off with fewer than 20 workouts *and* races per year that take one's HR/blood lactate over the LT...that's some heavy ****, dude, so consume it sparingly....

[Roy E. Munson]

My definition of basic interval work is essentially longer stuff - 15-25 minutes long. All the sprint type workouts, power stuff and pyramids ain't going to help you much unless you have an awful lot of miles under your belt and are really keyed on your training. I don't necasarily associate "interval" with "hard". Do some high cadence stuff to get a good base in, then hit the higher LT type intervals of longer duration.

[Too Tall]

Guys, this is getting way too good to give a flip answer. Am headed out to din din with Queen and last yr's winner of two man race across oregon....he's one skinny dood! Will post ltr. on this. Also, will give the ref. that you asked for...coggins has that. Psst...take your meds yer making sense ;)

[jeffg]

Once you bracket HR from the equation and stick to power for intervals (that leaves me on my ergometer for that), how do you gauge when it is time to quit LT or upper aerobic work? If you are trying to do 2X20 at a power just below LT or long upper aerobic intervals, then are you fine as long as you do not fail, i.e. if you can still maintain the watts, does it matter if it starts to get really hard after a while? Thoughts? :confused:

[Dr. Doofus]

the doc just got back from his own ride and I and he kept pissing at each other the whole way over this stuff well we really didn't because he was drooling at some points which told me to tell him to back off just a notch becuase tonight wasn't supposed to be drool-bucket intensity but just below it so what we did was simple and the point is too keep it simple this is just fun ferrchrissakes

no watch no heart rate monitor no srm justa damn bike we warmed up for a half hour in our pal the 42x14 and then rolled it for around 45 minutes (we know the loop) in a 53x16 legs tellin us 90-100rpm and for the first 30 minutes it sorta hurt justa little bit and then you get used to it and just keep turning tempo this works for us by the end of this cycle we'll do an hour and a half

later in the year we'll have to deign to use a wristwatch so we can plug it in something bigger like 53x15 for some 10-minute intervals and then the drooling gets involved but that's how you gotta do it just keep the cadence over 90 and old school drool fool it makes you stronger

yep

ain't no secret

just make it hurt and yerallright

[oracle]

yes, this is the way. toss all of your electric paranoia out the window, and turn the pedals over , for the sake of turning the pedals over. power? i have dual mono block 200w per side tube amps, thats watts for ya. heartrate training? put on a dirty movie and drink some whisky while smoking a camel. that ought ta do ya fine.

oracle

[Matt Barkley]

It all goes back to what one wants to accomplish (with training.) I would like to add, though, that the key to all of this in the end is really *Aerobic Power*. (Has this been stated in other words? , Too Tall's signifigant other likes recreational riding faster yet easier. - Roy, or Doc I'm sure has at least stated similar elsewhere?)

Building Aerobic Power and maintaining it... That is what all of us racers and non-racers should be trying to do. The goal is while riding hard you are aerobic and others are going into their "non-robic" regions.

Questions as to holding it at or below LT/AT,etc are good - but try it and see. 5, 10 , 15 minutes at a STEADY power output is do-able. Aim for that gradual increase in HR with a steady effort. Most all of us go too damn hard with any kind of interval. If you can't hold it - you are going to hard for this type of interval and are anearobic "non-robic."(I love that Doc, Thanks)
-Matt

[Too Tall]

Phew, I might have weasled out of a specific answer were it not for Matt and Docs common sense ;)

First, Louis was looking for a way to improve his fitness that was not too involved and improved his ability to hang with the boys when they turn up the heat.
Quote for Louis:
"Is there a relatively simple (not necessarily easy, but simple) program that will help me improve without taking the fun out of riding?"

Because Louis said he is not a "serious" rider I gave the man a simple interval he can do without complication and is easy to build into or build on...just do more! Trust me, YOU go out and do the 10-20-30-20-10's the way I said to and repeat them with 4-6 min.s rest and by the 3'rd or 4th set you'll be sucking air big time....these will raise LT. For extra credit (Louis) after getting good at these you can increase the duration 50%. So there you have it.

NEXT!!!! 2X20s are grueling, eyeball clawing affairs no matter what. No earthborn carbon form in existance can claim to enjoy these. Fuggetabout perceived effort. If you've done your homework and the boss says LT is "X" than nail it, hold it pray to g-d it will end but finish. I've seen my best threshold improvments doing 2X20's.

Yes, Doc...short pyramid intervals are done way above LT power and the science of this is to be honest still not completely understood by me or others regards to why these are effective at raising in LT without causing a physiologic peak response...which could if not managed lead to overtraining.

I think Coggins does a fine job defining and guiding us through how to train and I'll paste some dynamite references below.

Regards the "Non-adaptive" type intervals that I mentioned. These were dreamed up by my coach and Coggins this winter...they musta been smokin' something good cause they are EVIL intervals but they do not cause me to overtrain. I have sent a request to Coggins to see if he'll give me a small write up on the science behind it...or not! I have pasted a couple of these EVIL intervals below labled "non-adaptive interval". *The intervals assumed my threshold power in January was at 320w. Louis, DON'T do these!!!

Now for the rest of you training NERDS I am pasting a STACK of homework:

http://www.midweekclub.com/articles/coggan.pdf
http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=8619&sidebar=21&category=cycling

(non-adaptive interval #1)
Burst ride- 15minute warm-up with (1) 3 minute effort at 290watts, then 5minutes easy, then Nail it at 245-255 for 40 minutes, with 8 bursts to watts of 350, hold for 10 seconds, come back to 245-255. IF you need more recovery time, take it. I want that HR to come back and stabilize around 157-160.
Can do an additional 20 minutes with (5) big gear intervals- 53:13 – 50 rpm from 12 mph to 31 mph. Watts are around 200 mark for most of this.

(non-adaptive interval #2)
This is 15minute warm-up, and then 3 blocks of 10 minutes each.
Each block is 15seconds ON-to go 540watts ON, and 180 watts OFF- 15seconds is OFF period.

This is 15minute warm-up, and then 3 blocks of 10 minutes each.
Each block is 15seconds ON-to go 540watts ON, and 180 watts OFF- 15seconds is OFF period.
Repeat continually for 10 minutes. Then 5 minutes= EASY spinning , and then next block. Cool-down for 15minutes afterward.

[Roy E. Munson]

I think you're giving Louis a program that is designed for someone with a good solid base in and who has gotten their power at threshold where they want it. I'm guessing Louis has neither of these, not dissin Louis, so he would likely put a quick end to his season with this approach. I still think he should stick to 15-25 minute intervals, a few beats below his LT, maybe even start with some high cadence interval work. Louis, there is info online regarding how you should feel at certain levels of exertion - HR is dubious to work on, but is an ok gauge. A power meter is the best tool, but pricey.

[Too Tall]

Roy we are talking about the short pyramids only....the rest of (my) drivel is for nerds ;)

[keno]

my name is keno and I'm a power nerd. The Power Tap is my tool of choice and Cycling Peaks software the messenger. While measurement tools cost some bucks, probably on the order of 5-20% of the cost of a Serotta, depending upon model, and depending upon which you choose and whether you buy the tool new or used, you won't be doing real justice to the effort you put into those intervals suggested unless you can gauge during a session and over time how you are doing with them. Our bodies lie to us all of the time; they are simply unreliable sources of the kind of information needed in order to go faster longer, which depends upon power over time. Mine seems to want me to go slower shorter. Fer sur, you can improve without accurate measurement, which may be enough for many. I haven't got that kind of time. As George Burns said, "At my age I don't buy green bananas."

keno

training with power has worked for me and it can work for you, and you get a set of Ginsu knives, too

[csb]

and i approve of kenos' post

[Too Tall]

Nicely explained from the source:

The reason they probably don't cause you to peak the way longer intervals at the
same high power would is probably related to the same 'physiological half-lives' phenomenon that underlies the calculation of normalized power. That is, while varying the power in such a way alters which muscle fibers you call upon to do the task, each little burst is too short to require e.g., massive activation of glycogen breakdown, lactate production, etc. The physiological strain is therefore essentially no greater than simply exercising continuously at the overall average power output. If you make the work interval any longer than about 15 s, though, then it all falls apart...
==================================

(me again) So there you have it. My coach made up the term non-adaptive and actually calls the drills "burst" intervals. A sample of it is in a previous post.

[Roy E. Munson]

TT - who is your coach?

And we all forgot to mention the most important aspect of any training program - rest and recovery!

[Dr. Doofus]

Too Tall --

At the cellular level, and at the level of motor units I'm making the assumption that it sounds like a similar process to the LT intervals I described -- actually, the first documented incidence of this type of short accleration used to develop LT (as in the :15 on :15 off intervals I used with my guinea pigs...but those were for long durations of 10-12 min...blood lactate was taken on the trainer to determine the ideal power output for them) was with Soviet distance swimmers in the early 80s...an article I can barely recall in the Journal of Swimming Technique around '84....


The Doc and I have sworn off gadgets simply becuase we're burned out on them. We had a HR monitor in '86...the size of a friggin laptop...an SRM in '97..and the Accusport in '00...the challenge now is to see if we can regain some fun and passion by training intuitively, and it we're either lucky or smart, to make training by intuition and experience work so we have a good year. We're tired of bein the lab rat. This time, we're the artiste. Or just a prick who doesn't wear his helmet as often as he should...somethin...whatever....

[Too Tall]

(nodding head vigorously) It really kills me that everything I've learned about high level training is 20+ yrs. old or more!@#$%

Yah know sometin' that's inspiring? Guys like Keno who decide to focus on something and have the confidence to just THROWN DOWN and see what happens.

Doc, I have a feeling you will find your mojo through intuition and just riding your bike by feel. You know what you are doing.

In the meantime ol' Too Tall is struggling to find races hard enough to thin out the herd so I can friggin' DO SOMETHING!

This weekend I'm headed up to the PA hills for a b'buster of a race with a huge hill. Ask me Monday if interval training works (twitch. erk).

[zap]

Doc, I agree with you. I've sworn off measuring devices many years ago myself. I was a slave to avg.mph. However, last year I wore my heart rate monitor twice just to confirm how miserable my conditioning was.

As Too Tall stated, interval training today is not much different from many years ago. I still remember the interval workout my coach put together 24 years ago.

Gees, 24 years ago! Now I feel old.

Last year was very much an analysis year for me to find what work I needed to do to get into racing shape. Other than the obvious of putting more consitent miles in, I really needed to work on my recovery from hard efforts. Based on my research, I've been using 1min max efforts, 1min coasting x10. Not using any electronic device, it has taken me longer to learn how much effort to put in at the beginning of this exercise so that my 10th effort is close to the first.

The other change this year is improved power to weight ratio. So far so good as I'm only 3 lbs away from my goal of 165lbs:) As Tyler said "eat like a bird and work like a horse". Off season weight training using free weights is very important as well.