ot: vista

[Serpico]

I have xp pro sp2

if I buy vista ultimate - upgrade version, can I still wipe the drive on my computer? or do I have to install from xp?

thanks

[Hysbrian]

I think that all the upgrade versions are install from xp

[Grant McLean]

I have no idea...

Get a mac. :)

g


Campagnolo = Apple
Shimano = Mirco$oft

[AgilisMerlin]

I have xp pro sp2

if I buy vista ultimate - upgrade version, can I still wipe the drive on my computer? or do I have to install from xp?

thanks


i would wait until atleast this fall before buying or installing Vista operating system. Or else it will be patch after patch after patch.

It goes without saying why they did not have it available post Christmas.

but then again, after my xp laptop, i am going to get a apple notebook. :D


Microsoft operating systems eventually get clogged, work like ****, get incredibly slow, need separate firewalls, anti virus software that works........etc...........

i am sure vista will be smoking, but i am going to choose to smoke the other stuff next time........... :banana:

good luck, and post your eventual migration.



AmerliN

[Serpico]

.
signal < noise.. :cool: :rolleyes: :) ;)
.
.

[Serpico]

I think that all the upgrade versions are install from xp

That's what I'm thinking--but what if someone trashes the install? Do they install xp and then "upgrade" to vista?

Sounds like a pain, but you're probably right. The upgrade is $260 and the full version is $400.

I priced a 17" macbook tonight--soon, but not for a few years. I'm a one-computer person and this laptop is more than sufficient. Vista looks fine to me. I haven't spent much time with post-OS8 Macs, nor have I looked at Linux for almost six years. Vista will be fine for me right now. //general rambling, this last paragraph not written to you Brian//
.

[Grant McLean]

I never get tired of this one...


http://www.bitstorm.org/gates/


g

[Hysbrian]

That's what I'm thinking--but what if someone trashes the install? Do they install xp and then "upgrade" to vista?

Sounds like a pain, but you're probably right. The upgrade is $260 and the full version is $400.
.

I think that with there upgrade it would be very hard to mess it up. I think that it's an in place upgrade so it would be like installing a very large program.

I think that most people will run into problems when they don't have up to date drives, and compatible video cards.

I would either buy a computer with it pre-installed or do a clean install.

If you can swing it the new mac with dual core processors is sweett, you can run both windows, and mac OS. I've heard great things about that setup.

[gasman]

Vista is going to work and look like a Mac-so why not get a Mac.

I've been really happy with mine. No problems at all.


Dave



Campagnolo=Windows

Shimano=OS X

[Hysbrian]

Campagnolo=Windows

Shimano=OS X

Doesn't this explain why I would want to run windows?

[billrick]

My computer hd (6 years old) started making ominous sounds over the weekend, at the same time as the Vista roll out started. I ran to the Dell outlet website and ordered a reconditioned system . . . with XP!

Man, the idea of needing a new computer when there is nothing but the new MS Vista available scared the granola out of me! 1 GB RAM as a minimum system requirement to run Vista? Almost made me go with an Apple! The next laptop will be a Mac for sure.

:)

[gasman]

Doesn't this explain why I would want to run windows?

Depends on which way you swing. ;)

To me Campy and Shimano both work great, it's just personal preference.

After years of using Windows I have found OS X so much easier I can't believe it took me so long to change.
Even my computer gaming son has reluctantly admitted the change has been good.

[Hysbrian]

Depends on which way you swing. ;)

To me Campy and Shimano both work great, it's just personal preference.

After years of using Windows I have found OS X so much easier I can't believe it took me so long to change.
Even my computer gaming son has reluctantly admitted the change has been good.

Yeah I am just hoping for a price drop in the MAC notebooks, or to find a good deal. I think that I would have such a steep learning curve that it wouldn't make sense for me to switch but, I've never bothered to use a MAC so I wouldn't really know how long it would take me to adjust.

[sjbraun]

I found this discussion at: http://blogs.chron.com/techblog/archives/microsoft/windows_vista/
__________________________________________________ _______
January 22, 2007
Upgrade or clean install: Evolved thinking

Hi there.

How you guys doin'?

Long time no see.

Yeah, I've been MIA, but hardly AWOL.

I've been working my butt off, both at the mighty Houston Chronicle, and at home on my book. If I survive this period, well, I'll either be dead or much, much stronger.

I'm coming up for air long enough to share some interesting info I learned as I work on some print articles about Windows Vista. A conversation I had last week with some Microsoft product managers has changed my mind somewhat on the issue of whether to do a clean install versus an upgrade install of Vista.

As every card-carrying geek knows, when upgrading an operating system, a clean install is a better choice in most cases. It gives you a fresh start, wiping away all traces of the older software on your PC and replacing it with a new, pristine setup. In the past, upgrading from one version of Windows to another could cause the new OS to inherit the problems of the older one.

Peter McKiernan, a senior product manager at Microsoft, said the way Vista is installed is different from past versions in Windows.

Previous versions of Windows were installed file by file. But with Vista, it's done as an image -- a snapshot of the OS is dropped onto the hard drive, then configured to match your hardware.

And that's what happens even when you do an upgrade installation of Vista -- what Microsoft calls an "in-place upgrade". McKiernan says the install routine surveys your Windows XP or 2000 hardware and software configuration. It then scoops out what it thinks it can save and use -- applications, settings, even drivers in some cases -- and sets it aside.

The installer then lays down the image just as it would in a clean install. It goes back to the stash of bits it set aside and essentially reinstalls them. It also defragments the hard drive. (This explains why clean installs of Vista take just 20-30 minutes, while upgrade installs can take up to several hours.)

The end result, McKiernan says, is an upgrade installation that's as close to a clean install as you can get. (The wild card, of course, is if a particular application is corrupted or has issues. It likely will still have those issues after a Vista upgrade.)

I've done four upgrade installs of the finished version of Vista so far, and each has gone flawlessly. Yes, there have been some peripherals that didn't work because drivers weren't available, and some programs had problems -- but in all those cases, the Windows Vista Upgrade Advisor flagged them in advance. I knew they were coming because I did my due diligence.

With this in mind, I'm less inclined to urge folks to do a clean install if at all possible. If a system is healthy -- and that's crucial -- an upgrade install with Vista is a reasonable option. Certainly, if something goes wrong, you can always repeat the process, this time doing a clean install.

And by the way, to clear something up . . .

If you buy the upgrade version of any Vista edition, you will not be able to start the upgrade process by booting from the DVD. You'll need to start from within an existing Windows setup. Once the process starts, you're given the choice of a clean or upgrade install.

This is different from earlier Windows upgrade discs, which let you boot from the hard drive. They'd either look for a Windows installation, or ask you to insert a Windows system disc to prove you were entitled to an upgrade. No more.

Of course, this raises a question: If your hard drive dies and you must install Vista on a new drive, how do you do it? The ugly answer from McKiernan: Re-install your previous operating system, then install Vista from there.

So here's a warning for those users who buy an upgrade disc after Jan. 30: Don't throw away your Windows XP or 2000 discs. You may need them again someday.

[Serpico]

...

If you buy the upgrade version of any Vista edition, you will not be able to start the upgrade process by booting from the DVD. You'll need to start from within an existing Windows setup. Once the process starts, you're given the choice of a clean or upgrade install.

...

:beer:

thanks for the article

[jemoryl]

Another smug Mac user, but even so, I'm not sure I would touch Vista with the proverbial 10-foot pole: DRM in Vista (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html)

[Serpico]

I think I'll holdup on this upgrade. I have 2gb of memory, but I would prefer 4gb for Vista. My laptop is maxed at 2gb.

I think I'll just get a MacBook with 4 gb in a few years.

Sounds like Vista will just slow my Dell laptop down. It's a swangin' laptop with a large screen and thin form factor--but Vista seems a bit big for it, imo.

[Proxy]

I think I'll holdup on this upgrade. I have 2gb of memory, but I would prefer 4gb for Vista. My laptop is maxed at 2gb.

I think I'll just get a MacBook with 4 gb in a few years.

Sounds like Vista will just slow my Dell laptop down. It's a swangin' laptop with a large screen and thin form factor--but Vista seems a bit big for it, imo.

I have been using it for most of last year on several laptops, last one is a D420 and it has a painfully slow hard drive. the thing that matters most on laptops is a fast hd, 5400, 7200 and decent video - also a constant defrag with something like diskeeper is needed. get vista if there is something compelling that you want, it just an os after all - now office 2007 is something special, total rewrites on everything – great suite if you ask me. It cracks me up with all this mac talk, but I guess everyone is entitled to there opinion. My desktop with just a simple dual core and a sata in a raid1 will blow the doors off any mac for half the price and since most people just surf speed is what counts. Macs look great and are fun to play with, but the cost will always hold them back and yes I have a mac in front of me.
proxy, mcse, mvp/sbs, ccnp, etc

[Grant McLean]

It cracks me up with all this mac talk, but I guess everyone is entitled to there opinion.

That's ok. All the M$ talk cracks me up too.


What's a "defrag?"

:)


g

[taz-t]

I have no idea...

Get a mac. :)

g


I did - Bought a Macbook in August.

Hard drive crashed Sunday. Go to Apple Store, login to 'Conceirge'. "We're sorry, no more Mac Genius appts available today, please come back tomorrow". Can't schedule an appointment for future date because I didn't buy 'MacCare' or something.

Unlike some Mac Users, I have a job and can't wait around a mall store all day.

What now?

Same scenario (hard drive crash) with IBM ThinkPad in 2000. 2 weeks out of warranty. Call IBM Support, overnight box arrives next day. Ship computer off, returns one week later with new hard drive, no charge.

Hmm...

taz-t

[Hysbrian]

It cracks me up with all this mac talk, but I guess everyone is entitled to there opinion. My desktop with just a simple dual core and a sata in a raid1 will blow the doors off any mac for half the price and since most people just surf speed is what counts. Macs look great and are fun to play with, but the cost will always hold them back and yes I have a mac in front of me.
proxy, mcse, mvp/sbs, ccnp, etc

But macs are so cooool...

[Orin]

My computer hd (6 years old) started making ominous sounds over the weekend, at the same time as the Vista roll out started. I ran to the Dell outlet website and ordered a reconditioned system . . . with XP!

Man, the idea of needing a new computer when there is nothing but the new MS Vista available scared the granola out of me! 1 GB RAM as a minimum system requirement to run Vista? Almost made me go with an Apple! The next laptop will be a Mac for sure.

:)

Yeah, 1GB memory, 3GHz CPU or just don't bother with Vista. I've been running a copy at work and other than the hiding things in new creative ways in the UI, I haven't seen any advantage... it might be more secure, but that's probably due to the not-quite-admin mode that you get to run in by default - which is so annoying that it wouldn't surprise me if most people turn it off. I only leave it on so our software actually works with it on. Vista still hasn't reached the ease at which you can run as a regular user on Linux...

Orin.

[Proxy]

But macs are so cooool...

I agree, I like mine - if it was cheaper, faster and had better network options I would be all over them. Some of the newer dell workstations are not bad looking at all really, but the mac stuff is on a different level looks wise. My little 420 with vista gets the job done - you are a network guy, I am ts'ed into 3 servers and typing on one of them and is not lag at all - 6 phone voip on the other end so I have a good pipe, but the os does not drag it down too bad imo, my disk is a 4200 - comes from an ipod, no joke

[Serotta PETE]

Unless there is a feature of VISTA that you need for your business (and I have heard of no "world shaking" enhancements) - - I would not touch VISTA for the next year. BUGS will be plentifull and XP PRO is pretty solid at this point.

I am with GRANT. In SEPT, I bought a MACBOOK PRO, after using IBM/WINDOWS Family for 20 years. I like it MUCH better and find ease of use has taken on a new meaning.

Microsoft still owns the BUSINESS ROAD WARRIOR MARKET!!! There are still some business needed applications that do not support APPLE>

Merrill Lynch does not even support it for its statement downloads to QUICKEN and QUICKEN MAC is not as feature loaded as WINDOWS version. (although it does more that I need)


I have xp pro sp2

if I buy vista ultimate - upgrade version, can I still wipe the drive on my computer? or do I have to install from xp?

thanks

[Serotta PETE]

MAC PRO SERVICE offering is cheap and service is great. You might be able to get it still..In Raleigh the APPLE STORES are wonderful and if ever a problem (I HAD ONE and just asked to talk to the manager AND it went away.

Give it a try... or go online to read more about the offering


I did - Bought a Macbook in August.

Hard drive crashed Sunday. Go to Apple Store, login to 'Conceirge'. "We're sorry, no more Mac Genius appts available today, please come back tomorrow". Can't schedule an appointment for future date because I didn't buy 'MacCare' or something.

Unlike some Mac Users, I have a job and can't wait around a mall store all day.

What now?

Same scenario (hard drive crash) with IBM ThinkPad in 2000. 2 weeks out of warranty. Call IBM Support, overnight box arrives next day. Ship computer off, returns one week later with new hard drive, no charge.

Hmm...

taz-t

[BoulderGeek]

Vista makes me sad.
Five years for a chrome-plated turd.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37291

Windows is for games and n00bs. Or the stubborn clueless (You know, those who voted for Bush in 2004).

UNIX is for work and pros.

Mac OS X = UNIX (don't split semantic hairs with me, I know the kernel is XNU)

Vista is no better than XP at doing anything except costing you money.

If you are a home user and want/need a new machine, there is no justification for not migrating to Mac OS X. Only corporate drones "need" Windows, and then they have the IT weenies to fix it.

Oh, the above is only atmo.

Orin is my hero. Linux user here since 1996. Current distro: CentOS 4.4.

[taz-t]

MAC PRO SERVICE offering is cheap and service is great. You might be able to get it still..In Raleigh the APPLE STORES are wonderful and if ever a problem (I HAD ONE and just asked to talk to the manager AND it went away.

Give it a try... or go online to read more about the offering

Well... since I bashed Apple some, I should follow up. Went to another Apple Store yesterday after scheduling an appt earlier that morning. They diagnosed a bad hard drive (as I thought). Will replace it and have it back in a week. Would have gotten it the same day, but they didn't have the drive in current store inventory. I'll look into the Mac Pro Service but I still don't think I should pay extra for repair assistance for a machine under warranty.

- Taz

[Serpico]

anyone have a mac mini? how does OS X run with 2gb memory?

might look at an mac (intel) mini as my "A" computer and use my dell laptop as a secondary until I get a macbook.

thanks

[BoulderGeek]

anyone have a mac mini? how does OS X run with 2gb memory?

might look at an mac (intel) mini as my "A" computer and use my dell laptop as a secondary until I get a macbook.

thanks

I run an older PowerPC G4 Mac Mini on my home entertainment system. It had wireless keyboard and mouse,and feeds into a 42" LCD TV. I use it for iTunes for parties, general web browsing, viewing and printing maps and directions, Google Earth, etc.

It is 1.25GHz early base model overclocked to 1.5GHz. It has a 100GB 5400 drive and 1GB of RAM, running OS X 10.4.8.

I think it performs fine. For real tasks (not games) it is a fine little computer. One of the new CoreDuo machines with 1GB or more of memory will be fine (for everything but games). The shared memory footprint of the Intel GMA950 graphics chipset does reduce your available memory by 80MB, so factor that in.

The Mini is a great choice where silence and unobtrusive footprint are important.

My multimedia PC is a dual core AMD 4400+ with 2GB of dual channel RAM. The Mini is nearly as good at most things.

[sg8357]

Vista = OSX for Wintel ?, wait for service pack 1 at least.

Office 2007 is neat, nasty baroque 2003 is history.
Bad part, you get to relearn Office.

Mac OS X = Unix in drag. weren't computers supposed to get better ?
Linux = OS as adventure game, find the magic etc/config file.
Exchange 2007 = RMS Titanic, job security for IT, billions for Bill & Dell.

Me, I think index cards are a great idea.

Scott G.

[Serpico]

...

Mac OS X = Unix in drag. weren't computers supposed to get better ?

...

why are they so into mach (which is a monolithic kernel imho) instead of linux? the slashdot crowd would go nuts if they ran osx on linux kernel instead, imho and they'd get more respect in server rooms.

probably not a technical issue but rather a Jobs issue--remember what he did with the clones when he came back? remember how he treated the powerpc partners (ibm and moto)?

fwiw avie tevanian developed mach at carnegie mellon before he went to NeXT--perhaps he's a bit attached to it.

[Serpico]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT6YO30GhmQ

[BoulderGeek]

Serpico, you have a good background on the NEXTSTEP history in OS X. You always do your research.

However, since OS X 10.1, they migrated away from Mach and went to an open-sourced BSD kernel, derived from OpenBSD.

Avie T. invented Mach, as you noted. In 1991, it was ridiculously advanced, compared to the System 7 Macs and Windows 3.0 machines out there. It's a little long in the tooth for today, and has been deprecated.

Want to buy a still-running 1990 NeXT Cube (Turbo 68040 upgrade) with 400dpi NeXT Laster printer?

Mac OS X: works well for me
Linux: works well, with some effort
Windows 2000: works OK, with some problems
Windows XP/Vista: I wouldn't know, I don't subscribe to spyware

[SoCalSteve]

Vista = OSX for Wintel ?, wait for service pack 1 at least.

Office 2007 is neat, nasty baroque 2003 is history.
Bad part, you get to relearn Office.

Mac OS X = Unix in drag. weren't computers supposed to get better ?
Linux = OS as adventure game, find the magic etc/config file.
Exchange 2007 = RMS Titanic, job security for IT, billions for Bill & Dell.

Me, I think index cards are a great idea.

Scott G.

Post of the day! (even though it was yesterday)

[gt6267a]

There is no question that linux competes or betters any of the MS offerings on the back end, but the interfaces suck. If Apple wanted to blow up the computing world, they would release OS X as a desktop for linux. Instead of duplicating the development effort of another UNIX flavor, just work on making a fantastic interface even better. With the desktop, include a pile of drivers and utilities to make using the computer and peripherals easy.

Sell it as a full OS or desktop package. Either way, this would be real competition for windows. No doubt, if apple just released OS X for install on non-apple intel machines that would do the trick as well. I just love the idea of capitalizing on the linux effort.

[Serpico]

.
Bill Gates discusses Apple's ad campaign mocking Vista (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16934083/site/newsweek/page/1/)

He tries to remain above the fray but the old Gates/Jobs stuff comes back. Fun stuff, lotta history there

btw, there's a pretty humorous made-for-tv movie with Noah Wylie (Jobs) and Anthony Michael Hall (Gates).

[BoulderGeek]

There is no question that linux competes or betters any of the MS offerings on the back end, but the interfaces suck. If Apple wanted to blow up the computing world, they would release OS X as a desktop for linux. Instead of duplicating the development effort of another UNIX flavor, just work on making a fantastic interface even better. With the desktop, include a pile of drivers and utilities to make using the computer and peripherals easy.

Sell it as a full OS or desktop package. Either way, this would be real competition for windows. No doubt, if apple just released OS X for install on non-apple intel machines that would do the trick as well. I just love the idea of capitalizing on the linux effort.

While your view is well reasoned, and shared by many, I don't think that's ever going to happen.

1) In the Gil Amelio days, OS 8 was licensed to OEMs to make clones. Apple nearly crumbled. This created the dismal environment that Steve had to draw Apple out from under.

2) Steve tried this before. NeXT Computer got out of the hardware business and sold only their (wonderful) software and development kit. How many of you ever used NEXTSTEP 3.3 or OpenStep 4.2 on x86?

I think that the lessons of these brushes with corporate death have convinced Steve that software is the value-add to hardware. But it is the hardware sales that keep the whole ship afloat.

And, one might say that it is the Sisyphean challenge of compatibility to the nearly unlimited assortment of random hardware out there which makes Windows suck as badly as it always has. The sword cuts both ways.

I used to build x86 PCs for NEXTSTEP.There was a _very_ short list of hardware that would run. Apple is the same way. By controlling both sides (HW & SW) they can create a solid platform.

Dell and other x86 sellers, on the other hand, are motherboard-of-the-month clubs, and one never knows what you'll get and how it will work down the road. But, hey, you saved $150, right?

FWIW, I just installed Ubuntu 6.10 on my Mac Mini (on my living room TV). Runs quite nicely onthe diminutive machine.

[Serpico]

Bouldgeek, great analysis. The value-add is a computer that recognized a floppy when you put it in--20 years ago. Why does my--awesome btw--dell laptop have some POS dvd drive that kicks out a coffee tray when I push a button. On a Mac I just push the disk into a mouth. Nothing to break. Jobs had the vision to recognize floppies were dead--he realized this 20 years ago, modern manufacturers just now are becoming comfortable with this and shipping floppyless systems. Optical media, laser printing, postscript, mouse, gui, etc (yes, mad respect to Xerox PARC, but you need to ship a product and get it to people also).

You could go on for hours.

Apple finally changed its name from 'Apple Computer' a month ago. They're now 'Apple'. As in 'Sony'. Apple is finally (and this has been predicted for 15 years, this was supposed to happen in the early-mid 90's) ready to move into the consumer appliance space (ipod, then iphone and now AppleTV). They really need to get on the television/video/streaming etc. angle. Microsoft is incredibly vulnerable right now. Vista bombed hard--no positive reviews to speak of. Media Player sucks. Quicktime and iTunes are great product lines--quality stuff.

The Power Computing era was interesting, but they were pushing themselves into a niche. Gil Amelio considered Windows NT with an Apple interface as a solution to the Copland debacle.

The clones were basically muscle cars wrapped in cheap cases. I remember we got a few new boxen at work. My boss wanted the Power Computing box and thought he had the good stuff. A month or so later I got the first Job-era PowerMac--imho, I won.