Commuter/Gravel wheel build: spoke choice (straight gauge or butted)

[robertbb]

Hey All,

I'm having a set of hubs re-laced to some new rims. The hubs are just OEM Giant-branded ones (I think Bitex) - they are very good and I don't feel the need to replace. The rims are Easton R90SL's.

Spoke count is 28h rear, 24h front and both will be laced 3x.

The frame is a RIM brake frame, with a 1x drivetrain. I will be using racks and fenders at various points for commuting, day-trips and possibly some "overnighters".

My goal is for pure reliability.

Question: Should I be choosing straight gauge spokes or butted spokes? (DT champion vs DT competition)

The wheel builder is suggesting straight gauge are more reliable, but I have read that butted spokes may actually be less prone to breaking as they will "stretch".

The builder has been building wheels professionally for about 30 years and has done thousands upon thousands of sets, so I am confident the work will be good (proper stress relieving, etc.) but he is very old school in his thinking insofar as component choices.

Appreciate any advice!

[illuminaught]

Always butted.

[CMiller]

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=2091807

Discussed here before, this is a quote from oldpotatoe, who I trust on wheels - " In the 'grand scheme of things', all else being equal, butted spokes are more reliable than straight gauge spokes BUT that doesn't mean you will have a bunch of problems with those wheels with straight gauge spokes. Kinda like saying aluminum chainring bolts are 'way lighter' than steel CR bolts..they are lighter but that doesn't mean the steel ones are 'heavy'.

Remember many, many wheels were used for decades, very successfully, with straight gauge spokes."

That being said I see absolutely no reason to go straight gauge, more weight for no gain.

[Coda1]

I don't think there is any reason to go straight gauge other then cost.

[ColonelJLloyd]

I'm don't claim to be an expert, but I don't think 3 cross is typically the optimal lacing pattern for a 24h 700c wheel.

2.0/1.8/2.0 and 2.0/1.7/2.0 butted spokes have always worked great for me. As have ovalized spokes. There are lots of choices and few of them truly inappropriate.

[CMiller]

Also I know you like the hubs but I'd just sell the old wheel set maybe and buy newer bitex/serviceable Shimano if you were doing a full build any way. That would open the possibility to a 32 or 36 hole rear which would be great If you really are looking for durability.

[robertbb]

Also I know you like the hubs but I'd just sell the old wheel set maybe and buy newer bitex/serviceable Shimano if you were doing a full build any way. That would open the possibility to a 32 or 36 hole rear which would be great If you really are looking for durability.

Yep, as would I, but I already have the rims so this spoke count will have to be it.

[NoMoreParagon]

Good topic. Not only I choose butted, but I go exclusively with bladed because in my experience only with bladed I can efficiently make sure tension is even.
Bladed spokes allow to better grip the spoke while tightening the nipple as opposed to rounded (whether is straight gauge or butted) and I found that bladed keep tension over time much better.

[Mark McM]

Straight spokes are cheaper, easier to build with (they don't twist as much when adjusting the nipples) and make a stiffer wheel (as you say, they don't stretch as much). Their extra stiffness also means that if a spoke breaks, they will go less out of true. But they make for a less reliable wheel, more likely to break spokes, and also increase the likeliness of rim cracking.

Butted spokes are lighter and more reliable, but they take a little more care to build with - the higher the butting differential, the more they twist when turning the nipples. (The lower weight is really just a secondary advantage compared to their extra reliability.)

Most bladed spokes really just butted spokes whose center sections have been flattened. From a strength, stiffness, weight and reliability standpoint they behave just like butted spokes with the same cross sectional area. They are much more expensive, but they have a (small) aerodynamic advantage. During building, using a special spoke holding tool can make them as easy to use as straight spokes, but without the tool, they can be more difficult than round butted spokes.

The preferred maximum number of spoke crossings with 24 spokes is 2x. A 3x pattern would result in a the spokes leaving the flange at a 90 degree angle (actually, slightly more than 90 degrees), and this won't work with many hubs. For 28 spokes, 3x is the typically the maximum recommended number of crossings, so will likely work fine on traditional low flange hubs.

If you are building specifically for reliability, you might want to consider a more substantial rim. The Easton R90SL rim is only 455g, which is fairly light (for a clincher rim). While a rim like this can work with 24/28 spokes in some cases, it won't be as reliable as a heavier (and perhaps deeper) rim, especially for a larger rider.

[dgauthier]

(...) Spoke count is 28h rear, 24h front and both will be laced 3x.
(...) My goal is for pure reliability. (...)

Everything suggested here is correct: according to the "bibles" of wheel building by Jobst Brandt and Gerd Schraner, butted spokes provide a more durable and reliable wheel than straight gauge spokes. Under excessive loads, a straight gauge spoke transfers all the load to the elbow, where it breaks, while a butted spoke will elastically stretch along the butted shaft, reducing loads on the elbow and threads.

If your goal is pure reliability, I would suggest you consider replacing the hubs with hubs with a higher spoke count. The day trips with racks and fenders you describe suggest loaded touring, so you need to take into account your own weight plus the weight of your packed gear. A 28 front/32 rear or 32/32 setup would be more appropriate.

As Mark McM suggested, the weakness of your relatively low spoke count wheels should be compensated for by using heavier rims, but the strength afforded by using higher spoke counts permits the use of a lighter rim, and lighter components overall. In addition, a properly built high spoke count wheel will go out of true less often, and because the load is shared among more spokes, will remain ridable should a spoke ever break.

[Davist]

As above, with 24 go 2x, don't think 3x would work... I built similar wheels, 2x front 24 and 3x back 28 butted spokes, BHS hubs, H+Son Archetypes, completely bulletproof under my 190+lb (at the time) carcass, used for what's now called "gravel" on a CAAD10.

[robertbb]

I really appreciate the collective wisdom on display here, especially those that took the time here to write in more detail :hello:

I think I've been convinced to hold off on this particular build.

I'll probably:

1) Save these rims for a more road-oriented build with a different set of hubs, and go with bladed spokes for that one.

2) Pick up a heavier/more reliable rim for these hubs and get it laced with standard round butted spokes.

Hopefully the shop won't give me any grief when I come to collect the pieces. I made the mistake of leaving it all with them while they looked into parts availability (and came up with a quote).

Thanks again to all!

[marciero]

Both our tandems came with straight gauge spokes. That was something I noticed after building a 650b set with butted spokes for one of them. A friend subsequently told me that straight gauge are typically used for tandems. But I dont see why the arguments that hold for single bikes would not also apply to tandems, and I've continued to use butted on tandem wheelsets.