future of campy and lower gearing?

[AngryScientist]

Right now Chorus-12 is the only crankset offered in 48/32, which i think is an awesome front gear combo for what i do. paired with 11-34 in the back, it covers everything i would ever need.

does anyone have any insight or insider knowledge of where campy is going in the near future?

will be see centaur expanded to a lower gearing crank? maybe return veloce or potenza to the scene ?

there are rumors of the 1x13 group coming? what model will that group be? something new?

Daytona?? hello???

i would love to see an alloy centaur or potenza or athena crankset with 48/32 rings come to light soon.

any ideas??

[Ken Robb]

I think Campy dropped "Daytona" because another company had a trademark registered like it already.

[thirdgenbird]

The rumor over on WW is that Potenza is getting replaced, possibly with a classic styled group. I don’t know what that means, but the return of the Athena name and it’s 5-bolt crank makes sense to me. They are also talking about the 1x13 group. Someone posted what looks like a patent drawing of a 32t wide/narrow chainring. It wasn’t clear if it was from Campagnolo but if it is, it gets my mind wandering.

Moving Centaur to a subcompact similar to chorus only makes sense to me. With the rumors above in mind, it could create a well rounded product family.

[ultraman6970]

What campagnolo needs to do is to get back record C with delta brakes, everything silver and some black accents.

The technology is there now, example, modify the potenza crankset or just relabel it, The FD and RD from the potenza... Brake calipers, just grab an old skeleton chorus or even a record one and put the blu gem to it, silver, parallel just develop a new set of deltas, this time with some carbon pieces like the cover.

[R3awak3n]

What campagnolo needs to do is to get back record C with delta brakes, everything silver and some black accents.

The technology is there now, example, modify the potenza crankset or just relabel it, The FD and RD from the potenza... Brake calipers, just grab an old skeleton chorus or even a record one and put the blu gem to it, silver, parallel just develop a new set of deltas, this time with some carbon pieces like the cover.

with all the respect, these are all terrible ideas that would do nothing for campy. They would sell like 5 of them. The blue gem was hideous and why would campy develope a new delta when everyone is moving into discs.

I think people like the idea of a retro inspired group but then when it would be time to buy, few would buy it.



I am wondering if campy will dip their toes into 1x. They will definitely get subcompacts in a cheaper alloy crank and I think that would be super smart. Campy should come out with budget gravel group.

12 speed. Alloy everything. Disc brakes. $600/700 all in. Pretty much some sort of centaur with a subcompact. Would compete a bit with chorus but would be heavier. Also would make people have to buy campy cassettes which would be a benefit for them. Would compete with 105.

[Hindmost]

I think Campy dropped "Daytona" because another company had a trademark registered like it already.

Campy used the name Daytona because it was also a prestigious wristwatch with ties to auto racing. The watch people were likely paying royalties to Daytona speedway.

[FlashUNC]

What campagnolo needs to do is to get back record C with delta brakes, everything silver and some black accents.

The technology is there now, example, modify the potenza crankset or just relabel it, The FD and RD from the potenza... Brake calipers, just grab an old skeleton chorus or even a record one and put the blu gem to it, silver, parallel just develop a new set of deltas, this time with some carbon pieces like the cover.

Campy, I think quite rightly, is not in the retro-fetish business.

[Coffee Rider]

Right now Chorus-12 is the only crankset offered in 48/32, which i think is an awesome front gear combo for what i do. paired with 11-34 in the back, it covers everything i would ever need.

does anyone have any insight or insider knowledge of where campy is going in the near future?

will be see centaur expanded to a lower gearing crank? maybe return veloce or potenza to the scene ?

there are rumors of the 1x13 group coming? what model will that group be? something new?

Daytona?? hello???

i would love to see an alloy centaur or potenza or athena crankset with 48/32 rings come to light soon.

any ideas??

I don't see Campy doing subcompact in Record or SR unless sales on subcompact Chorus are really good. I'm not sure if the Chorus 12 rings work on either of the higher groups.

Sort of from what I'd heard, it seems like 1x13 will be more of a Chorus level or lower type group.

I would really like a nice modern polished Campy group, but I'm not holding out too much hope since I don't think there would be a big enough market to support it.

[AngryScientist]

Campy, I think quite rightly, is not in the retro-fetish business.

yea, there is no real money in that, and whatevre they might come up with, people will criticize them, so they cant win in that arena. that's fine with me too.

now subcompact gearing, gravel friendly and mid level components are where it's at right now. that's why i'm hoping they expand the subcompact crank options beyond the current chorus offerings.

my overwhelming bet is that the chorus subcompact sold very well.

[Mark McM]

Campy used the name Daytona because it was also a prestigious wristwatch with ties to auto racing. The watch people were likely paying royalties to Daytona speedway.

The name "Daytona" by itself can't be trademarked, as it has been the name of a city for hundreds of years. Trademarks can only be registered for specific applications, and others can actually use the trademark name if it is not apt to cause confusion with the trademark holder. If you went to the city of Daytona, Florida, I'm sure you'll see the word 'Daytona' used for many products and services - I'll bet there's a "Daytona Laundromat" down the street from the "Daytona Diner" and the "Daytona Auto Repair" - nobody is likely to confuse these with each other, so they can all use 'Daytona' in their names.

On the other hand, the Chrysler Corporation produced a car under the Dodge brand called the "Dodge Daytona". They would be allowed to trademark the 'Daytona' name as it applies to automobiles, so they could block Ford or GM from also making a car called the 'Daytona'. But you'd still be able to bring your 'Dodge Daytona" to the "Daytona Auto Repair" for an oil change without fear of trademark infringement.

If Campagnolo stopped using the 'Daytona' name for trademark reasons, then someone else must have trademarked the name as applied to bicycles.

[Mark McM]

now subcompact gearing, gravel friendly and mid level components are where it's at right now. that's why i'm hoping they expand the subcompact crank options beyond the current chorus offerings.

I'll just mention that with 48/32, the Chorus 12spd crank is more like a mid-subcompact - the chainrings are only 2 teeth smaller than the 'regular' 50/34 compact, afterall. However, the BCD on these cranks allow even smaller chainrings, so they could fit chainrings of the popular 46/30 size, to make it a true subcompact. That would really open it up to the gravel world.

[tomato coupe]

The name "Daytona" by itself can't be trademarked, as it has been the name of a city for hundreds of years.

See: Roubaix

[R3awak3n]

I'll just mention that with 48/32, the Chorus 12spd crank is more like a mid-subcompact - the chainrings are only 2 teeth smaller than the 'regular' 50/34 compact, afterall. However, the BCD on these cranks allow even smaller chainrings, so they could fit chainrings of the popular 46/30 size, to make it a true subcompact. That would really open it up to the gravel world.


I like the wording and makes sense but I think most people think of subcompact as anything smaller than compact.

[Mark McM]

See: Roubaix

And see where that case went.

Had the 'Roubaix Cafe' been an ice cream shop, with no connection at all to bicycles, there never would have been any case. Even as it was, trying to extend the 'Roubaix' name from a model of bicycle to a bicycle shop was still a very tenuous stretch. Had the bicycle shop been able to afford to hire expensive lawyers, they could have easily batted down any law suite like that.

[Mark McM]

I like the wording and makes sense but I think most people think of subcompact as anything smaller than compact.

Yeah, I know, we already have "standard" (53/39), mid-compact (52/36), compact (50/34), and subcompact (smaller than those), we probably don't need to subdivide it further. But on the other hand, since many 110mm BCD "compact" cranks can use chainrings down to 33 teeth, stepping down one tooth to 32 doesn't seem to be much of a distinction.

[Velocipede]

Right now Chorus-12 is the only crankset offered in 48/32, which i think is an awesome front gear combo for what i do. paired with 11-34 in the back, it covers everything i would ever need.

does anyone have any insight or insider knowledge of where campy is going in the near future?

will be see centaur expanded to a lower gearing crank? maybe return veloce or potenza to the scene ?

there are rumors of the 1x13 group coming? what model will that group be? something new?

Daytona?? hello???

i would love to see an alloy centaur or potenza or athena crankset with 48/32 rings come to light soon.

any ideas??

Yes, I have ideas. I've seen the media presentation of what's coming out this month, in August and in September. All of it was supposed to be out for NAHBS but with COVID, everything got pushed back to the summer and fall.


I don't see Campy doing subcompact in Record or SR unless sales on subcompact Chorus are really good. I'm not sure if the Chorus 12 rings work on either of the higher groups.

Sort of from what I'd heard, it seems like 1x13 will be more of a Chorus level or lower type group.

I would really like a nice modern polished Campy group, but I'm not holding out too much hope since I don't think there would be a big enough market to support it.

Chorus 12 rings are the same as Record and Super Record. Just as Chorus 11 rings are the same as Record and Super Record. Same SKU's.

[robertbb]

Also very interested in this. No idea what's going to happen, other than rumours which have all been stated, but I hope it happens soon.

As to the 1x question, I've never ridden a 1x setup but as an experiment I've gone out for rides where I've kept the front in the small chainring (36t) and deliberately skipped gears on the cassette to emulate (as far as possible) the available steps of a wider 1x setup.

Took some getting used to, but eventually I settled into the cadence variations just fine. For solo riding and touring I think it's fine. Probably still lacks the nuance and fine-grained adjustment as a 2x setup for fast group rides though.

1x13 is getting very, very close to a full spread of 2x gears while maintaining close (read: 2x) jumps for a lot of the high gears and without going too silly on the jumps between lower gears. You really just lack the extreme high or extreme low.... or, with astute chainring choice, you can bias your setup high or low.... not bad at all.

I've enjoyed playing with the following gear ratio site. Just slide the chainrings and cogs around and compare the steps above - very well done!

http://ritzelrechner.de/

(Be sure to hit the "compare" button down the bottom right of screen before you start so you can overlay to combo's. Then just click into either of the gear windows before making adjustments)

Bringing this back to Campy, well, the Chorus crank looks to be designed for smaller rings and perhaps a 1x. I do hope they introduce an alloy UT crankset... that isn't *too* heavy.

[fijichf]

I read somewhere that Campagnolo dropped the name Daytona and Bianchi dropped the name Talladega at the same time (2002?) due to a challenge by NASCAR...who knows.

[Hellgate]

I just want a wireless SR group.

[Velocipede]

I read somewhere that Campagnolo dropped the name Daytona and Bianchi dropped the name Talladega at the same time (2002?) due to a challenge by NASCAR...who knows.

The Daytona name was dropped due to NASCAR. Which is funny cause you can use a name if it's not in a related field. But they didn't want to deal with it so they dropped it.
Same for Talladega.
The whole Roubaix thing with Specialized was a different situation which of course they had no right to it anyways. Epic is another one that S tries to fight over.

[Toddykins]

If one draws a venn diagram of riders looking for 1x and riders looking for Campy, I suspect the overlap is very small.

[FlashUNC]

If one draws a venn diagram of riders looking for 1x and riders looking for Campy, I suspect the overlap is very small.

Certainly enough on the forum here screech about how they ignore gravel. Well, a 1x group would mean they're not ignoring gravel. And people will screech about that.

Can't win for losing.

[AngryScientist]

i wonder how the market for 1x in europe compares to the market for 1x in the US?

or the market for gravel in general?

seems in the US, gravel is the new hot segment - is this consistent across the pond? is there an explosion of gravel racing and fondo type events in europe like we have here?

what about asia market?

[thirdgenbird]

And see where that case went.

Had the 'Roubaix Cafe' been an ice cream shop, with no connection at all to bicycles, there never would have been any case. Even as it was, trying to extend the 'Roubaix' name from a model of bicycle to a bicycle shop was still a very tenuous stretch. Had the bicycle shop been able to afford to hire expensive lawyers, they could have easily batted down any law suite like that.

I read that this particular shop was selling wheels with Roubaix Cafe decals. I don’t know if this is true, but I did look and Specialized held a Canadian trademark that covered bicycle components including wheels. The shop name wasn’t the issue apparently.

Fuji said they had the “global trademark” per their PR statement but as far as I am aware, no such thing exists and I didn’t see any trademark filed by Fuji or their parent in Canada. Whether or not Specialized’s contract for use of the mark in the US bared them from registering it anywhere else, we will probably never know.



Back on topic, I am with angry. I bet the take rate on the chorus subcompact was high. I am skeptical we will see it offered with SR and R, but chorus and below seems like a safe play.

[tomato coupe]

The name "Daytona" by itself can't be trademarked, as it has been the name of a city for hundreds of years.

See: Roubaix

And see where that case went.

Had the 'Roubaix Cafe' been an ice cream shop, with no connection at all to bicycles, there never would have been any case. Even as it was, trying to extend the 'Roubaix' name from a model of bicycle to a bicycle shop was still a very tenuous stretch. Had the bicycle shop been able to afford to hire expensive lawyers, they could have easily batted down any law suite like that.

You're missing the point:

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2019/01/11/specialized-agrees-pay-700k-roubaix-trademark-us-ase-bid-deadline-pushed#.XwOqQi2z2fc

[Velocipede]

i wonder how the market for 1x in europe compares to the market for 1x in the US?

or the market for gravel in general?

seems in the US, gravel is the new hot segment - is this consistent across the pond? is there an explosion of gravel racing and fondo type events in europe like we have here?

what about asia market?


Europe is getting big for gravel. The US is still the biggest. It's kind of like how 29'ers went. The US led the 29 wheel size charge. Europe took longer for that. Germany especially so for some reason. But they caught up. Gravel is the same. Asia is VERY different. They are more road than gravel. It hasn't caught on as much as Europe.

[dddd]

MTB-style ratio gaps starting with 12, 14, 16t... work perfectly well for general riding. Only for competitive riding was the 1t ratio gap ever needed.

With today's mere 11s cassettes, this means that even 11-42t can give tight enough ratios for general riding, and precludes the need for any big ratio gap between chainrings.

I'm not a fan of 1x though due to the severe chainline, particularly when the factory-set chainline is biased toward the smaller end of the cassette.
So often this is due to anticipated/marketed largest tire sizes that are never actually used.

So make it a tight double, heck make it a triple even, and keep the chainring ratio gaps user-friendly rather than the annoying 16t gap that is really starting to seem so painfully dated (even as it is still near it's peak of oem spec).

Those big awkward chainring ratio gaps made so much sense when we were riding 6-speed freewheels. Yet today we have only handlebar shifting (or optional electronic shifting) to offset the problem.

Still waiting for technically-updated triples and quads to show how it should be done (close-ratio, closer-spaced, unified-structure chainrings).
Unfortunately many of today's molded frames are literally designed around current, dated status-quo 2x and 1x chainsets, just as some of the mtb's now made could never run bigger than a 34t or even 32t single chainring (and have very inefficient chainline).

[Velocipede]

I read that this particular shop was selling wheels with Roubaix Cafe decals. I don’t know if this is true, but I did look and Specialized held a Canadian trademark that covered bicycle components including wheels. The shop name wasn’t the issue apparently.

Fuji said they had the “global trademark” per their PR statement but as far as I am aware, no such thing exists and I didn’t see any trademark filed by Fuji or their parent in Canada. Whether or not Specialized’s contract for use of the mark in the US bared them from registering it anywhere else, we will probably never know.

Back on topic, I am with angry. I bet the take rate on the chorus subcompact was high. I am skeptical we will see it offered with SR and R, but chorus and below seems like a safe play.

You're missing the point:

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2019/01/11/specialized-agrees-pay-700k-roubaix-trademark-us-ase-bid-deadline-pushed#.XwOqQi2z2fc

The whole thing with Roubaix was due to it being a related field. The S problem was they actually had no standing but pushed the issue. Fuji had the actual rights. That's why S caved. It's the same with the word 'EPIC'. They claim they own it for anything bicycle related. The joke has been if someone said it in a bike shop S would sue them. They've gone after shops who've used it. Only 1 shop I know of has gotten away with it cause they had it just before S filed.

It's kind of like Vittoria tires and Vittoria shoes. At one point Vittoria tires reached out to Vittoria shoes and told them they needed to change the name. Edoardo who owns Vittoria Shoes looked and found out they had the name 2 weeks before Vittoria Tires. The tire company stopped calling after that.

[thirdgenbird]

The whole thing with Roubaix was due to it being a related field. The S problem was they actually had no standing but pushed the issue. Fuji had the actual rights.

I really don’t think this is the case. When the news broke, I could find absolutely no evidence that ASI held a trademark for Roubaix in Canada but Specialized clearly did.

Here is the registration from 2007

https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/viewTrademark?id=1331172&lang=eng&tab=reg&posNum=1&search=%7B%22selectField1%22%3A%22all%22%2C%22text Field1%22%3A%22Roubaix%22%2C%22category%22%3A%22%2 2%2C%22type%22%3A%22%22%2C%22status%22%3A%22%22%2C %22viennaField%22%3A%5B%5D%2C%22searchDates%22%3A% 5B%5D%2C%22selectMaxDoc%22%3A%22500%22%2C%22langua ge%22%3A%22eng%22%7D&length=25&start=0

The opposite was true in my search for the US. ASI owned this one. The link above seems to support that. It specifically says Specialized agreed to buy the US mark. No mention of the Canadian mark.

Again, I don’t know if Specialized had an agreement with ASI that bared them from claiming the mark in Canada but they did hold it. It came up in a cursory Canadian trademark search. Whatever the case, I though the whole ASI “global trademark” statement looked a bit silly. The whole thing was a bit silly.

[tomato coupe]

The whole thing with Roubaix was due to it being a related field. The S problem was they actually had no standing but pushed the issue. Fuji had the actual rights.

You are also missing the point.

The name "Daytona" by itself can't be trademarked, as it has been the name of a city for hundreds of years.

Title of article in previous link:

"Specialized agrees to pay $700k for Roubaix trademark in the US"

Roubaix is a city in France. It's been around a lot longer than Daytona.

[Velocipede]

You are also missing the point.



Title of article in previous link:

"Specialized agrees to pay $700k for Roubaix trademark in the US"

Roubaix is a city in France. It's been around a lot longer than Daytona.


You joining two different timeframes. The original Roubaix issue happened many years(2013) before S bought the name rights from ASI(2019) when they filed for bankruptcy. I'm very familiar with what happened between Dan and S.

[FlashUNC]

I really don’t think this is the case. When the news broke, I could find absolutely no evidence that ASI held a trademark for Roubaix in Canada but Specialized clearly did.

Here is the registration from 2007

https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/viewTrademark?id=1331172&lang=eng&tab=reg&posNum=1&search=%7B%22selectField1%22%3A%22all%22%2C%22text Field1%22%3A%22Roubaix%22%2C%22category%22%3A%22%2 2%2C%22type%22%3A%22%22%2C%22status%22%3A%22%22%2C %22viennaField%22%3A%5B%5D%2C%22searchDates%22%3A% 5B%5D%2C%22selectMaxDoc%22%3A%22500%22%2C%22langua ge%22%3A%22eng%22%7D&length=25&start=0

The opposite was true in my search for the US. ASI owned this one. The link above seems to support that. It specifically says Specialized agreed to buy the US mark. No mention of the Canadian mark.

Again, I don’t know if Specialized had an agreement with ASI that bared them from claiming the mark in Canada but they did hold it. It came up in a cursory Canadian trademark search. Whatever the case, I though the whole ASI “global trademark” statement looked a bit silly. The whole thing was a bit silly.

To say nothing of the public revolt Special Ed faced when they tried to make the claim. Even the court of public opinion was most definitely not on their side.

[Velocipede]

I really don’t think this is the case. When the news broke, I could find absolutely no evidence that ASI held a trademark for Roubaix in Canada but Specialized clearly did.

Here is the registration from 2007

https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/viewTrademark?id=1331172&lang=eng&tab=reg&posNum=1&search=%7B%22selectField1%22%3A%22all%22%2C%22text Field1%22%3A%22Roubaix%22%2C%22category%22%3A%22%2 2%2C%22type%22%3A%22%22%2C%22status%22%3A%22%22%2C %22viennaField%22%3A%5B%5D%2C%22searchDates%22%3A% 5B%5D%2C%22selectMaxDoc%22%3A%22500%22%2C%22langua ge%22%3A%22eng%22%7D&length=25&start=0

The opposite was true in my search for the US. ASI owned this one. The link above seems to support that. It specifically says Specialized agreed to buy the US mark. No mention of the Canadian mark.

Again, I don’t know if Specialized had an agreement with ASI that bared them from claiming the mark in Canada but they did hold it. It came up in a cursory Canadian trademark search. Whatever the case, I though the whole ASI “global trademark” statement looked a bit silly. The whole thing was a bit silly.

Actually, ASI/Fuji in their agreement barred S from filing for a trademark in general, not just in Canada. That's why S caved in the end. They weren't allowed to file at all. ASI/Fuji almost canceled their agreement over it! It was really bad for a bit. I know people at ASI/Fuji, which of course isn't them anymore but the people are still there.

[tomato coupe]

...,.....

[saab2000]

Europe is getting big for gravel. The US is still the biggest. It's kind of like how 29'ers went. The US led the 29 wheel size charge. Europe took longer for that. Germany especially so for some reason. But they caught up. Gravel is the same. Asia is VERY different. They are more road than gravel. It hasn't caught on as much as Europe.

The opportunities for gravel riding in Europe are endless. Even more than road riding, which is also vastly superior to most of the US.

[thirdgenbird]

Actually, ASI/Fuji in their agreement barred S from filing for a trademark in general, not just in Canada. That's why S caved in the end. They weren't allowed to file at all. ASI/Fuji almost canceled their agreement over it! It was really bad for a bit. I know people at ASI/Fuji, which of course isn't them anymore but the people are still there.

Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was odd and figured there was a contract behind the scenes. I think ASI would have been far better of stating this vs the communication that I saw referencing a bogus global trademark.



Back to more fun topics. I’m excited for Campagnolo 1x, but this doesn’t look very useful on a road bike.

[Velocipede]

I don't care about the timeline or any particulars of what transpired with the Canadian coffee shop.

One more attempt:



From SecureYourTrademark.com:

"You may trademark a city name if it is used as a brand name for your products or services. For example, “NEW ORLEANS” is a registered trademark for a line of doors and window guards. Trademarking a city name does not mean that you own the city name, nor does it mean that you own the city. Trademarking that city’s name will prevent other companies from using the city’s name in association with a product or service similar to yours."

I never said it couldn't be trademarked. I know it can. It comes down to who owns it and what it's being used for.

[robertbb]

MTB-style ratio gaps starting with 12, 14, 16t... work perfectly well for general riding. Only for competitive riding was the 1t ratio gap ever needed.

With today's mere 11t cassettes, this means that even 11-42t can give tight enough ratios for general riding, and precludes the need for any big ratio gap between chainrings.

I'm not a fan of 1x though due to the severe chainline, particularly when the factory-set chainline is biased toward the smaller end of the cassette.
So often this is due to anticipated/marketed largest tire sizes that are never actually used.

So make it a tight double, heck make it a triple even, and keep the chainring ratio gaps user-friendly rather than the annoying 16t gap that is really starting to seem so painfully dated (even as it is still near it's peak of oem spec).

Those big awkward chainring ratio gaps made so much sense when we were riding 6-speed freewheels. Yet today we have only handlebar shifting (or optional electronic shifting) to offset the problem.

Still waiting for technically-updated triples and quads to show how it should be done (close-ratio, closer-spaced, unified-structure chainrings).
Unfortunately many of today's molded frames are literally designed around current, dated status-quo 2x and 1x chainsets, just as some of the mtb's now made could never run bigger than a 34t or even 32t single chainring (and have very inefficient chainline).

Great post. I too wonder if, before too long, we'll see triples make a comeback, just like yester-year with fewer cogs at the rear. Say 3x9.

We'll be told that with electronic gearing, front shifting is now super easy and reliable. We'll be told that it's way lighter and more aero. We'll be told that frames and chainstays can now be wider and stiffer and wheels can now be dished symetrically between cogs and rotor, and therefore stiffer/stronger...

[Velocipede]

Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was odd and figured there was a contract behind the scenes. I think ASI would have been far better of stating this vs the communication that I saw referencing a bogus global trademark.



Back to more fun topics. I’m excited for Campagnolo 1x, but this doesn’t look very useful on a road bike.

Yeah, the big problem was S jumped so hard and fast on Roubaix Cafe and ASI/Fuji was silent for too long. I heard ASI/Fuji bosses thought it was a joke at first and thought S would realize what was going on and it didn't happen. That's when they spoke up. But it was such a mess already that it was hard to come back from it. You could see in the pic of Sinyard and Dan how much Mike did NOT want to be there.

[Dino Suegiù]

It's kind of like Vittoria tires and Vittoria shoes. At one point Vittoria tires reached out to Vittoria shoes and told them they needed to change the name. Edoardo who owns Vittoria Shoes looked and found out they had the name 2 weeks before Vittoria Tires. The tire company stopped calling after that.
Hmmm....

Vittoria tires (Vittoria SpA) was founded in 1953.
Vittoria shoes (Vittoria s.r.l.) was founded in 1976.

Not exactly 2 weeks, and the other way around to boot (no pun intended).

[Velocipede]

The opportunities for gravel riding in Europe are endless. Even more than road riding, which is also vastly superior to most of the US.

I don't disagree. But the US was first and it's really pushed it harder than other countries. There are so many great rides in the UK and Europe. It would be great to see an Ironman style 'GRAVEL' world championship that takes place in numerous locations.

[thirdgenbird]

Yeah, the big problem was S jumped so hard and fast on Roubaix Cafe and ASI/Fuji was silent for too long. I heard ASI/Fuji bosses thought it was a joke at first and thought S would realize what was going on and it didn't happen. That's when they spoke up. But it was such a mess already that it was hard to come back from it. You could see in the pic of Sinyard and Dan how much Mike did NOT want to be there.

Did you actively ignore the “important” part of that post? :)

[Velocipede]

Hmmm....

Vittoria tires (Vittoria SpA) was founded in 1953.
Vittoria shoes (Vittoria s.r.l.) was founded in 1976.

Not exactly 2 weeks, and the other way around to boot (no pun intended).

I worked for Vittoria Shoes. I used to get the calls and emails. The original name wasn't Vittoria S.p.A. It was different when it was founded in 53. Vittoria Srl was founded as Vittoria Srl in 76 by Celestino Vercelli a former pro racer and teammate of Eddy Merckx. I actually got billed for Vittoria Tires Interbike booth once due to the confusion. It was wild getting an email for the credit card receipt of almost $50k!!! It's like Sidi claiming the first cable closure when Vittoria had it almost a year before Sidi did. The Italians would argue over a bunch of stuff like the name and other junk. I used to hear the stories. I heard one about a bus in Milano and being snubbed. Just silly stuff.

[Velocipede]

Did you actively ignore the “important” part of that post? :)

Maybe.... ;)

[thirdgenbird]

Maybe.... ;)

I might have to buy a new frame.

[Velocipede]

I might have to buy a new frame.

I have one of the new stuff incoming this month among other "new stuff". A new frame would do it all justice.

[thirdgenbird]

I have one of the new stuff incoming this month among other "new stuff". A new frame would do it all justice.

I don’t own anything with enough tire clearance to warrant a 32t 1x crankset.

[Velocipede]

I don’t own anything with enough tire clearance to warrant a 32t 1x crankset.

Well, you could! What size do you ride?

[Dino Suegiù]

The original name wasn't Vittoria S.p.A. It was different when it was founded in 53.
Really? The tire company might beg to differ.

From the Vittoria (tires, SpA, etc) website (https://www.vittoria.com/us/about-us):
"Since 1953 Vittoria Industries Ltd. has built highly reputable partnerships within in the cycling industry and created a unique brand image."

From Wikipedia:
"Vittoria S.p.A. is an Italian bicycle tire manufacturer established in 1953. The company has more than 1000 employees around the world, produces 5 million road and mountain bike tires."

From any other online source:
"Vittoria...."

In their 60-year anniversary packets, only one name was mentioned: Vittoria.

The suffix may have changed with expansion into mtb (GEAX), the factory move to Thailand (Lion Tyres), and production explosion, but afaik the brand name/prefix was always called "Vittoria" and I recall seeing Vittoria branded tires before 1976 (Vittoria shoes).

[thirdgenbird]

Well, you could! What size do you ride?

My most comfortable bikes were a traditional 59cm Colnago and the large yeti. Both were/are set up with a 130mm stem. Ideally, the yeti would have a bit more reach and drop (140mm -17) for road riding but it feels right in more technical riding.

I’m thinking this would need to be a bit longer/slacker but that’s outside of what I’m used to.

[djg21]

See: Roubaix

Consistent with what Mark said, the ROUBAIX mark (Reg. No. 1686272) was registered in 1992 and is owned by Specialized. http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4802:lj3xg.4.7. Where the mark is used without Specialized’s consent in connection with bicycles or bicycle accessories, it could be infringing if the use is likely to cause consumer confusion as to source or origin or endorsement. Moreover, the ROUBAIX mark, at least with respect to bicycles, has developed what’s called secondary meaning. In other words, consumers have started to identify the mark with a specific product — a particular Specialized bicycle. However, I probably still could use the term “Roubaix” for other purposes — for instance, as the name of a restaurant in upstate NY that serves French food (note that the mark would not be used to identify geographic location of the restaurant, and merely would be suggestive of something being from or related to Roubaix). Notably, “Roubaix” is, or has been, used in marks for a number of other goods, including beer, textiles, hair coloring, etc. http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=toc&state=4802%3Alj3xg.1.1&p_search=searchss&p_L=50&BackReference=&p_plural=yes&p_s_PARA1=&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA1%24LD&expr=PARA1+AND+PARA2&p_s_PARA2=Roubaix&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA2%24COMB&p_op_ALL=AND&a_default=search&a_search=Submit+Query&a_search=Submit+Query

This is all very simplistic, as this is not the place for a discussion of the nuances of trademark law, but you might want to learn something about what you’re talking about before you get snippy and start arguing with someone who does.

[djg21]

The Daytona name was dropped due to NASCAR. Which is funny cause you can use a name if it's not in a related field. But they didn't want to deal with it so they dropped it.
Same for Talladega.
The whole Roubaix thing with Specialized was a different situation which of course they had no right to it anyways. Epic is another one that S tries to fight over.

The term “EPIC” actually is a strong trademark. “Epic” is a real word that has nothing to do with bicycles. The mark therefore is considered an “arbitrary” one, and arbitrary marks are afforded greater protections by the courts.

[Mark McM]

You are also missing the point.



Title of article in previous link:

"Specialized agrees to pay $700k for Roubaix trademark in the US"

Roubaix is a city in France. It's been around a lot longer than Daytona.

If you read the first sentence of the cited article, you'll see what the true point is:

"Specialized Bicycle has agreed to pay bankrupt Advanced Sports Enterprises $700,000 for rights to the Roubaix bicycle trademark in the U.S."

In other words, the trademark in question here pertains only to bicycles.

A quick google search shows that the Daytona brand is currently being used for motorcycle helmets (https://www.daytonahelmets.com/), motorcycle components (https://daytona-global.com/), beer and alcohol (https://www.daytonabud.com/about-us/company), a luxury hotel (https://www.thedaytona.com/), and a hydraulic floor jack (https://www.harborfreight.com/3-ton-low-profile-super-duty-rapid-pump-floor-jack-63183.html). As none of these are directly related to auto racing, I think it is unlikely that any of them have any relationship to NASCAR.

[Mark McM]

Chorus 12 rings are the same as Record and Super Record. Just as Chorus 11 rings are the same as Record and Super Record. Same SKU's.

Wait, this can't be right. According to the Campagnolo web page, Chorus 12 speed cranks have 123mm/96mm BCD, while Record & Super Record 12 speed cranks have 145mm/112mm BCD. This is why the smallest chainring for Record & Super Record 12spd is 34 teeth, whereas Chorus 12spd has a 32 tooth chainring

[Velocipede]

The term “EPIC” actually is a strong trademark. “Epic” is a real word that has nothing to do with bicycles. The mark therefore is considered an “arbitrary” one, and arbitrary marks are afforded greater protections by the courts.

I don't disagree that "EPIC" is different. Which is why I mentioned S fights over this one. I own a couple trademarks. It's wild how specific it can be.

[Velocipede]

Wait, this can't be right. According to the Campagnolo web page, Chorus 12 speed cranks have 123mm/96mm BCD, while Record & Super Record 12 speed cranks have 145mm/112mm BCD. This is why the smallest chainring for Record & Super Record 12spd is 34 teeth, whereas Chorus 12spd has a 32 tooth chainring

I know the 11 speed is the same cause I just ordered rings and they are listed the same for all 3. I looked at the SKU's for the 12 speed. If it's different they have a serious typo on the pricelist. I will have to let them know tomorrow. The ones I just ordered were "Chorus" but are listed as "SR". I mentioned it to my guy and he told me they are the same for the Chorus, Record and SR 11 cranks.

[AngryScientist]

I know the 11 speed is the same cause I just ordered rings and they are listed the same for all 3. I looked at the SKU's for the 12 speed. If it's different they have a serious typo on the pricelist. I will have to let them know tomorrow. The ones I just ordered were "Chorus" but are listed as "SR". I mentioned it to my guy and he told me they are the same for the Chorus, Record and SR 11 cranks.

yea, for 11-sp they were the same, for 12, i think chorus is unique for now, offered in subcompact. i dont think you can fit the 48/32 rings on record or SR.

but what the future holds is.......

[Mark McM]

I know the 11 speed is the same cause I just ordered rings and they are listed the same for all 3. I looked at the SKU's for the 12 speed. If it's different they have a serious typo on the pricelist. I will have to let them know tomorrow. The ones I just ordered were "Chorus" but are listed as "SR". I mentioned it to my guy and he told me they are the same for the Chorus, Record and SR 11 cranks.

According to the Campagnolo 2020 Spare Parts Catalog (https://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_2437_Catalogue_spare%20parts_tools_Campagnolo_ 2020_part_A_Rev02.pdf), that is correct for 11 speed - Super Record, Record & Chorus all use the same chainring part numbers. But for 12 speed, Super Record and Record share the same part numbers, but Chorus has a different set of part numbers.

[Velocipede]

According to the Campagnolo 2020 Spare Parts Catalog (https://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_2437_Catalogue_spare%20parts_tools_Campagnolo_ 2020_part_A_Rev02.pdf), that is correct for 11 speed - Super Record, Record & Chorus all use the same chainring part numbers. But for 12 speed, Super Record and Record share the same part numbers, but Chorus has a different set of part numbers.

Thanks for letting me know. Cause their pricelist has a major typo!

[Velocipede]

yea, for 11-sp they were the same, for 12, i think chorus is unique for now, offered in subcompact. i dont think you can fit the 48/32 rings on record or SR.

but what the future holds is.......

In the works. Technically they have something coming out on the 19th? of July, they have stuff coming out September 9th? I can't remember the August date. I know what's coming out just not 100% on the dates. Those are what I remember from the C Guys.

[robertbb]

You really are a tease, man! :)

Some good bargains around now and I'm holding off to see what Campy unveils.

[Dino Suegiù]

According to the Campagnolo 2020 Spare Parts Catalog (https://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_2437_Catalogue_spare%20parts_tools_Campagnolo_ 2020_part_A_Rev02.pdf), that is correct for 11 speed - Super Record, Record & Chorus all use the same chainring part numbers. But for 12 speed, Super Record and Record share the same part numbers, but Chorus has a different set of part numbers.

The Campagnolo technical manuals support this as well:

Ultra-Torque Crankset 11-Speed (https://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_300_Technical%20manual%20-%20ultra%20torque%20crankset_11s_Campagnolo_Rev03_ 06_19_ENG.pdf)
Super Record 11; Record 11; Chorus 11; H 11; Potenza 11; Centaur:
BCD: 112mm / 145mm
Chainrings: 50/34; 52/36; 53/39


Ultra-Torque Crankset 12-Speed (https://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_2400_Technical%20manual%20-%20ultra%20torque%20crankset_12s_Campagnolo_Rev03_ 07_19_ENG.pdf)
Super Record 12s; Record 12s:
BCD: 112mm / 145mm
Chainrings: 50/34; 52/36; 53/39
+
Chorus 12s:
BCD: 96mm / 123mm
Chainrings: 48/32; 50/34; 52/36

[oldpotatoe]

i wonder how the market for 1x in europe compares to the market for 1x in the US?

or the market for gravel in general?

seems in the US, gravel is the new hot segment - is this consistent across the pond? is there an explosion of gravel racing and fondo type events in europe like we have here?

what about asia market?

No to both. Campag is trying to make inroads into the US market but in reality, in spite of the GRoad bike 'noise', it's a teeny, tiny segment and mostly in the US..almost non existent in Asia. Big difference is things like L 'Eroica, which is YUGE, and oh my goodness, has big stretches on 'gravel' and not a GROAD bike in sight. Fondos attract thousands, still...road bikes.

The whole "purpose driven bike" gig has been going on for decades in this, very flat, world wide bicycle market...

[thirdgenbird]

Potenza is no longer shown on the Campagnolo website. I suspect that means the new stuff is close.

[Coffee Rider]

Potenza is no longer shown on the Campagnolo website. I suspect that means the new stuff is close.


Good. That gives us something to talk about. I’m just hoping that I like the new stuff more than the old stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kentf14]

Fingers crossed for something a little better looking. Have been clinging to my 2014 SR but expect a new bike in the spring and would love a sexy new gruppo.

Good. That gives us something to talk about. I’m just hoping that I like the new stuff more than the old stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Velocipede]

Potenza is no longer shown on the Campagnolo website. I suspect that means the new stuff is close.

Ok, so I'm pretty sure this isn't part of the NDA I signed... Centaur will be the new Potenza. It'll be available in Silver and Black. 11 speed with all the same gearing options as Potenza.

[thirdgenbird]

Ok, so I'm pretty sure this isn't part of the NDA I signed... Centaur will be the new Potenza. It'll be available in Silver and Black. 11 speed with all the same gearing options as Potenza.

Is centaur getting the better RD and discs?

[Velocipede]

Is centaur getting the better RD and discs?

It's listed as mechanical and rim brake only. It doesn't show the rear derailleur so I can't answer specifics 100%.

[thirdgenbird]

Interesting. There didn’t seem to be much other than the option of discs separating the two groups. Branding the potenza hydro bits as centaur would have been a simple way to merge the two offerings and offer disc top to bottom. Going without does limit SKUs though. Happy to hear silver is sticking around. Both centaur finishes (and logos) looked nicer than potenza to me.

What is list price on a full Centaur group?

[oldpotatoe]

Potenza is no longer shown on the Campagnolo website. I suspect that means the new stuff is close.

??
Page 98

https://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_2424_CATALOGO_CAMPAGNOLO-2020-2021-ENG.pdf

[AngryScientist]

Ok, so I'm pretty sure this isn't part of the NDA I signed... Centaur will be the new Potenza. It'll be available in Silver and Black. 11 speed with all the same gearing options as Potenza.


This was already the case, there is a current silver and black centaur, so nothing new there.

??
Page 98

https://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_2424_CATALOGO_CAMPAGNOLO-2020-2021-ENG.pdf

but it's now gone from the website. makes sense that they would condense two essentially identical groups, potenza and centaur - especially if something brand new is coming.

[Velocipede]

??
Page 98

https://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_2424_CATALOGO_CAMPAGNOLO-2020-2021-ENG.pdf

This catalog will be obsolete come the 15th of July. New stuff is being dropped on the 15th or 19th of the next 3 months.

[thirdgenbird]

??
Page 98

https://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_2424_CATALOGO_CAMPAGNOLO-2020-2021-ENG.pdf

Yeah, still in catalog but off website. I am guessing we will see the catalog get updated after the new releases are all announced. A website allows for dynamic updates. Trying to do this with a catalog would be time consuming and confusing.

[nachetetm]

Ok, so I'm pretty sure this isn't part of the NDA I signed... Centaur will be the new Potenza. It'll be available in Silver and Black. 11 speed with all the same gearing options as Potenza.This is killing me! I need lower gearing and I was about to purchase an almost new potenza HO groupset with compact cranks , long cage and 11-32 cassette to replace my 52-36 12-29 short cage group, but if something 12 spd and silver appears I may wait. What do you think, should I wait?[emoji6]

[Velocipede]

This is killing me! I need lower gearing and I was about to purchase an almost new potenza HO groupset with compact cranks , long cage and 11-32 cassette to replace my 52-36 12-29 short cage group, but if something 12 spd and silver appears I may wait. What do you think, should I wait?[emoji6]

I can tell you it won't be silver. I can also say it'll have a much wider range of gearing options.

[thirdgenbird]

I can tell you it won't be silver. I can also say it'll have a much wider range of gearing options.

Disc only? :)

[Dave]

I certainly wouldn't be buying 11 speed now. I bought chorus 12 last July. It's worked flawlessly with the 48/32 and 11-34.

Anything new and silver seems unlikely.

[Bostic]

Potenza only came out four year ago and already they have removed it from the lineup?

[Wattvagen]

Potenza only came out four year ago and already they have removed it from the lineup?

It seems like Centaur, in both silver and black was upgraded to 11 just after Potenza came out and immediately made Potenza a redundant group in the line-up.

campy certainly used to have a lot more levels out, and didnt seem to mind lots of overlap, but these days they seem to be slimming down the offerings.

[nachetetm]

Potenza only came out four year ago and already they have removed it from the lineup?Potenza was just a name change from Athena, and no one said they are not going to maintain the same name. What it matters is it's position in the line-up, not how it is called.

[weiwentg]

Potenza was just a name change from Athena, and no one said they are not going to maintain the same name. What it matters is it's position in the line-up, not how it is called.

Substantively, this is true. However, Campy's lineup isn't as well-known as Shimano's or SRAM's. It does make it confusing for both consumers and for shop staff. The aficionados certainly know, but more casual folks won't. I liked all the three names involved. Hope they just stick to one from here out.

[Mark McM]

Potenza was just a name change from Athena, and no one said they are not going to maintain the same name. What it matters is it's position in the line-up, not how it is called.

Potenza replaced Athena in the line-up, but I'd argue that it wasn't just a rename. There were substantial changes in component design as well. For example, Athena used 5 arm single BCD crank, had a triple crank (with a long cage derailleur) used PowerTorque bottom brackets, and the derailleurs were all metal. Potenza used a 4 arm dual BCD cranks, Used UltraTorque bottom brackets, had short and medium cage derailleurs, and the derailleurs were partially plastic composite. So, same position in the line-up but a very different group.

[Wattvagen]

Athena used 5 arm single BCD crank, had a triple crank (with a long cage derailleur) used PowerTorque bottom brackets, and the derailleurs were all metal. Potenza used a 4 arm dual BCD cranks, Used UltraTorque bottom brackets, had short and medium cage derailleurs, and the derailleurs were partially plastic composite. So, same position in the line-up but a very different group.

i dont think that's quite correct.

Athena was definitely Ultra-Torque, i know, since everyone with standard gearing jumped on the Athena compacts, which were direct plug and play with most people's UT BB's.

I think, if i remember correctly, Potenza started life as PT, but at the end went to UT as campy phased out PT all together.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1079/1728/products/Campagnolo-Athena-Ultra-Torque-11-Speed-Alloy-Race-Cjanset-1_1024x1024.jpg?v=1527190048

[tomato coupe]

i dont think that's quite correct.

Athena was definitely Ultra-Torque, i know, since everyone with standard gearing jumped on the Athena compacts, which were direct plug and play with most people's UT BB's.

I think Athena was Ultra-Torque at the beginning, but ultimately (2011?) switched to Power Torque.

[Bostic]

Athena was UT at first but became Power Torque with the 14mm bolt and no self extractor. I know because I was going the buy the Triple Crankset and group but never got around to it. Then they had their issue with the thumb button that was addressed with the droopy button.

The way the marketing was for Potenza was that it was alloy but lighter and modern. Then further improved PT with the self-extracting bolts.

Centaur while not overly stated so, is a lead brick of solid metal for the crank arms. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Wattvagen]

I think Athena was Ultra-Torque at the beginning, but ultimately (2011?) switched to Power Torque.

Athena was UT at first but became Power Torque with the 14mm bolt and no self extractor. I know because I was going the buy the Triple Crankset and group but never got around to it. Then they had their issue with the thumb button that was addressed with the droopy button.

The way the marketing was for Potenza was that it was alloy but lighter and modern. Then further improved PT with the self-extracting bolts.

Centaur while not overly stated so, is a lead brick of solid metal for the crank arms. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

yes, you guys are right, i forgot about the "in-between" years.

[fignon's barber]

I thought the idea of Potenza was to topple Ultegra as the king of OEM racing groupsets. I don't think the execution was there.:bike:

[vespasianus]

It seems like Centaur, in both silver and black was upgraded to 11 just after Potenza came out and immediately made Potenza a redundant group in the line-up.

campy certainly used to have a lot more levels out, and didnt seem to mind lots of overlap, but these days they seem to be slimming down the offerings.

Yeah, but Potenza had a disc option and Centaur does not. Say what you want about disc brakes but bikes with 105 and disc brakes are selling like hot cakes. Campagnolo lowest groupset with discs is now Chorus?

Me thinks they should now add Disc brakes to Centaur and just have those 4 group sets. Centaur- Chorus- Record and Super Record.

Market centaur as sitting between 105 and Ultegra, Chorus as sitting between Ultegra and Dura Ace and Record as Dura Ace or slightly above and Super Record as just above everything.

[oldpotatoe]

Yeah, but Potenza had a disc option and Centaur does not. Say what you want about disc brakes but bikes with 105 and disc brakes are selling like hot cakes. Campagnolo lowest groupset with discs is now Chorus?

Me think they should now add Disc brakes to Centaur and just have those 4 group sets. Centaur- Chorus- Record and Super Record.

Market centaur as sitting between 105 and Ultegra, Chorus as sitting between Ultegra and Dura Ace and Record as Dura Ace or slightly above and Super Record as just above everything.

Today..new stuff from Campagnolo being introduced..Velopicede??

[Velocipede]

Today..new stuff from Campagnolo being introduced..Velopicede??

19th. I couldn't remember if it was 15th or 19th. Asked this morning. Here's one pic. Just arrived today.

[Wattvagen]

Ha! What a tease!

So where is this new stuff being introduced on the 19th? Campy website? Elsewhere?

[Charles M]

You'll see social media launches etc...

There was a pretty nice roll out planned in Italy but it's cancelled unfortunately. Pretty sad as I had a full 2 weeks built around it :)

[flying]

19th. I couldn't remember if it was 15th or 19th. Asked this morning. Here's one pic. Just arrived today.

:);):rolleyes:

[FlashUNC]

This must be the most lax NDA signed in product development history.

[thirdgenbird]

I want one of those bags that is missing from this photo. I don’t know why, but I do.

[Wattvagen]

This must be the most lax NDA signed in product development history.

meaning? is there information leaked somewhere that i should know about???

[Velocipede]

I want one of those bags that is missing from this photo. I don’t know why, but I do.

Huh? These bags are available and have been for almost a year. They started coming out with the Bora WTO wheels last year. Super nice. Nice padding and graphics.

[m_sasso]

https://64.media.tumblr.com/b254d773f2c62ab10873af5ed5407ff4/tumblr_pyi0yhQJX71rszs8ao1_1280.jpg

[Velocipede]

https://64.media.tumblr.com/b254d773f2c62ab10873af5ed5407ff4/tumblr_pyi0yhQJX71rszs8ao1_1280.jpg

New stuff? Or from before? They've had these bags for a bit now. Super nice.

[Dino Suegiù]

This must be the most lax NDA signed in product development history.

No kidding.

"Cherchez le coquette, pardieu! Cherchez le coquette!"

[thirdgenbird]

Huh? These bags are available and have been for almost a year. They started coming out with the Bora WTO wheels last year. Super nice. Nice padding and graphics.

I was talking about the small bag with the Campagnolo script. Nothing new or special, I just want one. :)

I’ve got several version of the wheel bags.

[Velocipede]

This must be the most lax NDA signed in product development history.

No kidding.

"Cherchez le coquette, pardieu! Cherchez le coquette!"

I showed that photo to Campy this morning and they were fine with it.

[Velocipede]

I was talking about the small bag with the Campagnolo script. Nothing new or special, I just want one. :)

I’ve got several version of the wheel bags.

Ah! Yeah, I wish they'd sell those separately. I was speaking to the Campy guys this morning and they can't even get them for themselves. They have to buy wheels and get the bags that way. Hopefully it changes. It's a cool bag for sure.

[robertbb]

Well, it's after 8am on 16th July here in Oz already and no new Campy stuff....

Kept refreshing the browser until I fell asleep about 11pm last night.

Had weird dreams of bikes and viruses. Woke up every few hours (unintentionally) and checked my phone to see if anything had dropped.

I used to laugh at the kiddies lining up for new iPhones, and yet here I am. I have become what I detest...

:)

[FlashUNC]

I showed that photo to Campy this morning and they were fine with it.

More the entire body of work at this point.

But if Campy's fine with it, then whatevs.

[Velocipede]

Well, it's after 8am on 16th July here in Oz already and no new Campy stuff....

Kept refreshing the browser until I fell asleep about 11pm last night.

Had weird dreams of bikes and viruses. Woke up every few hours (unintentionally) and checked my phone to see if anything had dropped.

I used to laugh at the kiddies lining up for new iPhones, and yet here I am. I have become what I detest...

:)

July 19th. Sorry for the goof. I thought it was the 15th this month. I got the August and September ones mixed up with the July one. The one in September will be a gamechanger.

[Velocipede]

More the entire body of work at this point.

But if Campy's fine with it, then whatevs.

I showed them while I spoke to them, before I posted it. They were cool with it.

[FlashUNC]

I showed them while I spoke to them, before I posted it. They were cool with it.

Worlds I work in NDA generally means not even acknowledging you know anything about a project that you're under an agreement about, much less chatting about it on a forum or posting admittedly innocuous photos or discussing a release date.

But hey, if Campy's cool with it, like I said, just very different from what I've seen elsewhere anytime I see the phrase NDA.

[zennmotion]

...

Market centaur as sitting between 105 and Ultegra, Chorus as sitting between Ultegra and Dura Ace and Record as Dura Ace or slightly above and Super Record as just above everything.

Based on what objective criteria? Weight? Price? Function? Durability? Social media buzz hierarchy? Or just what the competing reps say? They're bike parts, and they all work just great!

[joosttx]

Worlds I work in NDA generally means not even acknowledging you know anything about a project that you're under an agreement about, much less chatting about it on a forum or posting admittedly innocuous photos or discussing a release date.

But hey, if Campy's cool with it, like I said, just very different from what I've seen elsewhere anytime I see the phrase NDA.

Cannot imagine why they have lost market share.

[Wattvagen]

Worlds I work in NDA generally means not even acknowledging you know anything about a project that you're under an agreement about, much less chatting about it on a forum or posting admittedly innocuous photos or discussing a release date.

But hey, if Campy's cool with it, like I said, just very different from what I've seen elsewhere anytime I see the phrase NDA.

On the other hand, it would seem to me to be in Campy's benefit if folks in their distribution line generated some buzz and anticipation about an upcoming release, without disclosing any specifics.

i would think the marketers at campy would be very happy to know that folks on a cycling forum are talking about their product and excited about a new release from them.

[joosttx]

On the other hand, it would seem to me to be in Campy's benefit if folks in their distribution line generated some buzz and anticipation about an upcoming release, without disclosing any specifics.

i would think the marketers at campy would be very happy to know that folks on a cycling forum are talking about their product and excited about a new release from them.

Typically companies are pretty tight controlling product launches bc if one distributor jumps the gun it pisses off others and screws up the planned surprises the marketing department has worked months on. Marketers like planned buzzes not premature ejaculations. But back to the original topic. And not business 101

[Dino Suegiù]

On the other hand, it would seem to me to be in Campy's benefit if folks in their distribution line generated some buzz and anticipation about an upcoming release, without disclosing any specifics.

i would think the marketers at campy would be very happy to know that folks on a cycling forum are talking about their product and excited about a new release from them.

:confused:

Do you really think that Campagnolo needs coy semi-guerrilla thread-specific clumsy marketing on a relatively minor forum like this one in order to generate "buzz" about themselves these days? I do not think so at all. Besides the standard product articles in journals and websites, released according to Campagnolo's schedule certainly, they also do have a nice little ~weekly email to which one can easily subscribe. I suspect that any "benefits" lie entirely elsewhere, frankly.

[Caballero]

Record EPS group coming. should be available soon.

[robertbb]

https://www.campagnolo.com/AU/en/Wheels/shamal_carbon_disc_brake

Seems the first cab off the rank is the carbon Shamal Ultra Disc Brake...

Interestingly... if you click one of the links from that page you get this:

https://www.campagnolo.com/WW/en/next_3_ways

"Single standard, all campy cassettes, present, past and still to come"

Nice!

[CMiller]

I really really dig that new freehub body - seems like an elegant solution to get a smaller cog while still being compatible with older cassettes. How did no one think of that?! Maybe they did but wanted to sell something haha.

[thirdgenbird]

That wheelset looks great with chorus on that specialized. It is a nice throwback to the 10spd era shamals. Probably the best wheel decals they have used since that time as well.

I assume using the cassette adaptor will also require using a special lock ring with an extended threaded section?

The patent they hold for the bolt-on cassette is pretty interesting but I appreciate the backwards compatibility this offers.

[R3awak3n]

wait, this was it? a kinda heavy carbon wheelset? price is ok I guess for what it is but I just don't like the look of g3 pattern.


I do like that new freehub. I appreciate that campy is not just switching crap and leaving behind people that have some money invested in 10-11 and now 12 speed.

They would not be releasing this if something bigger is right around the corner, weren't some of you talking about 13 speed? Would make sense as you probably could not do that without a new freehub style.

[R3awak3n]

I really really dig that new freehub body - seems like an elegant solution to get a smaller cog while still being compatible with older cassettes. How did no one think of that?! Maybe they did but wanted to sell something haha.

I mean, its not like campy has not made a bunch of propiertary crap to sell us stuff but I agree, its neat.

[thirdgenbird]

wait, this was it? a kinda heavy carbon wheelset? price is ok I guess for what it is but I just don't like the look of g3 pattern.

I don’t follow wheel weights closely, but given its 4mm wider, deeper, and 600eur cheaper than a Bora 35db wheelset, the extra 102g seems pretty reasonable.

[Velocipede]

I haven't seen the press drops yet. But I'm guess things have since you're talking about it. Here are pics of the Shamal Carbon Discs I got last week. I got a few pairs in. One is already on the way to someone.

Some details:
-It comes with a longer lockring as you can see in the picture
-12x100 front / 12x142 rear ONLY!
-$1485 is freaking awesome for an actual Campy made wheelset.
-They ARE Made in Italy.
-No proprietary spokes!
-2-Way Fit
-Comes with rotor lockrings
-Comes with tire levers and tubeless valve cores
-Weight wise, pretty comparable to others like Hunt. Within 100 grams of everyone in this price range. They don't FEEL heavy. BUT, they are Made by Campy! Better warranty, better compatibility.
-LOVE the 'Winged Wheel' graphic and the new Campagnolo graphic. NOT a fan of the Shamal Carbon graphic.
-AND they are backwards compatible! So no issues on these. You can run all the way to a 9 speed if you want. The've future and past proofed them.

These spin up quick, feel really smooth. Look amazing.

Yes this is more to come next month and in September. I'll find out the drop dates Monday. But I think it's the 15th for August and 19th for September. Brain hurts this morning.

On a side note... clearly I'm not full of **** like some PM'ed to me. I don't get the negativity. Seriously. Some people have sent over such nasty hatefilled screeds about how I'm full of ****, don't know what I'm talking about, a liar. I don't get it. Most people like the tease of new stuff. If people don't want me to do it, fine. I'll happily STFU with it. You'd figure someone with first-hand knowledge of it would be a good thing though. Sorry, rant over.

[Mark McM]

I really really dig that new freehub body - seems like an elegant solution to get a smaller cog while still being compatible with older cassettes. How did no one think of that?! Maybe they did but wanted to sell something haha.

That is a really neat solution - simple, yet effective. But while it will make Campagnolo's 10 & 11 speed cassettes compatible with N3W freehub, it isn't a 100% solution.

The original freehub and sprockets had 8 spline teeth, and later freehubs and sprokets only used 4 of the original 8 spline teeth. The adapter fits into the 4 spline grooves that were not used for the later sprockets, but this makes the adapter incompatible with earlier sprockets that had 8 spline teeth. Note that although the original freehub is compatible with 9, 10 & 11 speed cassettes, Campagnolo only claims the adapter is compatible with 10 & 11 speed cassettes. Some may argue that 9spd is obsolete, which is probably a valid point. But the adapter is also incompable with many current 10 & 11 speed Campagnolo compatible aftermarket cassettes, such as those from Miche and IRD.

From Campagnolo's perspective, I'm sure the adapter achieves everything they want it to, but it is not is 100% functionally equivalent to the original freehub.

[Roadguy]

All looking good so far and very polished. I agree it's a tad on the heavy side but given the quality you get and the market it's directed at I think this is probably a great wheel.

I wonder if there has been any development on bringing an Ultra hub shell to the DB lineups.

Looking forward to the rest of the summer announcements.

[thirdgenbird]

I like everything I see so far. If I were starting over and could only have one bike, it would probably be an Alan super gravel scandium with these wheels and a chorus group.

Excited to see what else is in store. I assume the new freehub is here primarily for 1x, but a 10t cassette could add some flexibility to the chorus subcompact.

[oldpotatoe]

I really really dig that new freehub body - seems like an elegant solution to get a smaller cog while still being compatible with older cassettes. How did no one think of that?! Maybe they did but wanted to sell something haha.

Ok, I’m missing something. The new shorter freehub body...what’s it for? Without the ‘plug’....for a 10t? For some sort of 1by system? Rumor is 13S but a shorter FHB?

:confused:

[Dino Suegiù]

https://www.campagnolo.com/AU/en/Wheels/shamal_carbon_disc_brake
Seems the first cab off the rank is the carbon Shamal Ultra Disc Brake...

Interestingly... if you click one of the links from that page you get this:
https://www.campagnolo.com/WW/en/next_3_ways
"Single standard, all campy cassettes, present, past and still to come"
Nice!
It is good that Campagnolo started with the king, Shamal. That is a beautiful wheelset, even for a non-discer. The integrated/compatible freehub bodies are great. Good post and thank you for the second link especially, that is excellent stuff.

(Apparently not everyone has to act all coy and/or aggrieved in order to post actual, current, correct information, straight from the official source, in just a few useful and succinct lines and without all the attendant melodrama. Bravo.)

I really really dig that new freehub body - seems like an elegant solution to get a smaller cog while still being compatible with older cassettes.
Indeed. What a rational straight-forward solution, typically Campagnolo well-designed, and looks solid through-out. Very nice solution.

That wheelset looks great with chorus on that specialized. It is a nice throwback to the 10spd era shamals. Probably the best wheel decals they have used since that time as well.
Yes, the graphics look outstanding on these, so much more discreet and elegant than in recent years. Really beautiful this time around; I think that the "cover-up Shamal graphics" businesses will have many fewer orders now, on these.

https://www.campagnolo.com/media/immagini/10809_n_shamal-carbon-disc-brake-front-2021-800x800.jpg

I don’t follow wheel weights closely, but given its 4mm wider, deeper, and 600eur cheaper than a Bora 35db wheelset, the extra 102g seems pretty reasonable.
Quite reasonable all around imo as well. These will be a big success I would bet.

[R3awak3n]

I don’t follow wheel weights closely, but given its 4mm wider, deeper, and 600eur cheaper than a Bora 35db wheelset, the extra 102g seems pretty reasonable.

Was just hoping they were releasing some more exciting stuff, this is actually a pretty cool wheel for a good price since it is made in italy by campy, its going to be a good quality wheel. I thought they were 1500 euros but now looking that they are about 1500 bucks that is a pretty fantastic deal. You can get similar spec reynolds for about $1200 but these will be MUCH HIGHER quality. I have not been very happy with my Reynolds AR41 I bought a few years ago, the rear is back at reynolds for the second time.

I haven't seen the press drops yet. But I'm guess things have since you're talking about it. Here are pics of the Shamal Carbon Discs I got last week. I got a few pairs in. One is already on the way to someone.

Some details:
-It comes with a longer lockring as you can see in the picture
-12x100 front / 12x142 rear ONLY!
-$1485 is freaking awesome for an actual Campy made wheelset.
-They ARE Made in Italy.
-No proprietary spokes!
-2-Way Fit
-Comes with rotor lockrings
-Comes with tire levers and tubeless valve cores
-Weight wise, pretty comparable to others like Hunt. Within 100 grams of everyone in this price range. They don't FEEL heavy. BUT, they are Made by Campy! Better warranty, better compatibility.
-LOVE the 'Winged Wheel' graphic and the new Campagnolo graphic. NOT a fan of the Shamal Carbon graphic.
-AND they are backwards compatible! So no issues on these. You can run all the way to a 9 speed if you want. The've future and past proofed them.

These spin up quick, feel really smooth. Look amazing.

Yes this is more to come next month and in September. I'll find out the drop dates Monday. But I think it's the 15th for August and 19th for September. Brain hurts this morning.

On a side note... clearly I'm not full of **** like some PM'ed to me. I don't get the negativity. Seriously. Some people have sent over such nasty hatefilled screeds about how I'm full of ****, don't know what I'm talking about, a liar. I don't get it. Most people like the tease of new stuff. If people don't want me to do it, fine. I'll happily STFU with it. You'd figure someone with first-hand knowledge of it would be a good thing though. Sorry, rant over.

dude, please do tell who sent you those PMs. That is ridiculous. Please keep posting, its nice to have some industry people here.



Ok, I’m missing something. The new shorter freehub body...what’s it for? Without the ‘plug’....for a 10t? For some sort of 1by system? Rumor is 13S but a shorter FHB?

:confused:

Maybe 10T but I think probably a way to fit 13 cogs in there. I hope something new comes from campy, I like where this is going so far.

[shinomaster]

[QUOTE=Velocipede;2760007On a side note... clearly I'm not full of **** like some PM'ed to me. I don't get the negativity. Seriously. Some people have sent over such nasty hatefilled screeds about how I'm full of ****, don't know what I'm talking about, a liar. I don't get it. Most people like the tease of new stuff. If people don't want me to do it, fine. I'll happily STFU with it. You'd figure someone with first-hand knowledge of it would be a good thing though. Sorry, rant over.[/QUOTE]

People send you hate mail because you float campy rumors? That's really infantile if true, wow.

[Mark McM]

Ok, I’m missing something. The new shorter freehub body...what’s it for? Without the ‘plug’....for a 10t? For some sort of 1by system? Rumor is 13S but a shorter FHB?

:confused:

They don't say so, but it almost certainly must be for using sprockets smaller than 11 teeth (10 teeth? 9 teeth?). Similarly, Shimano's Micro Spline and SRAM's XD/XDR freehubs are shorter than their previous freehubs. A 10 tooth sprocket is just too small to fit an axle plus freehub bearings inside, so the freehub is shortened, and the 10 tooth sprocket fits outboard the end of the freehub (attached to the next smaller sprocket).

This kind of thing was done even in the old freewheel days. Frequently, the freewheel body was too large to fit a 12 tooth srocket. So the freewheel body was made shorter, and the smallest sprocket was screwed onto the next smallest sprocket, which was screwed onto the freewheel.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/freewheel039_36A12-38.jpg

[Velocipede]

Something I forgot to mention. This new N3W freehub body will be available aftermarket. So you can upgrade a wheelset you currently have. They aren't available yet but will be.

[Mark McM]

Something I forgot to mention. This new N3W freehub body will be available aftermarket. So you can upgrade a wheelset you currently have. They aren't available yet but will be.

And what about N3W specific cassettes? Any idea what sizes (and number of sprockets) will be available? It seems a little odd introducing a new freehub design, without mentioning new cassettes to fit to it.

[Dino Suegiù]

On a side note... clearly I'm not full of **** like some PM'ed to me. I don't get the negativity. Seriously. Some people have sent over such nasty hatefilled screeds about how I'm full of ****, don't know what I'm talking about, a liar. I don't get it. Most people like the tease of new stuff. If people don't want me to do it, fine. I'll happily STFU with it. You'd figure someone with first-hand knowledge of it would be a good thing though. Sorry, rant over.
"Sorry", really? It is very well understood that you want to sell, but is this thread (which you did not start) a general discussion about forthcoming Campagnolo components or is it about some kind of poor me victimology all of a sudden?

No PMs from me, guaranteed, but I will put it out here: come on, man.... Maybe respect "the community" (and other vendors here) a bit more elegantly, if this is what it is coming to, ie (coyly, again) asserting such vicious effrontery and attacks behind the curtains, etc etc etc. It is always so "off the record, on the QT, and very hush-hush...". :rolleyes: Such conduct harms rather than burnishes reputation, imo. Good luck.

[Velocipede]

And what about N3W specific cassettes? Any idea what sizes (and number of sprockets) will be available?

Yes.

Campy is going to meet the needs of its current clients and others who want the best possible. Be it gearing, braking, backwards and forwards compatibility. I personally think the upgrade in the driver is awesome. More engagement. Future proofed. And you can get the freehub body for a current wheelset. They've really thought things out.

[Dino Suegiù]

And what about N3W specific cassettes? Any idea what sizes (and number of sprockets) will be available? It seems a little odd introducing a new freehub design, without mentioning new cassettes to fit to it.

Yes. I hope Campagnolo will list those, and also publish a simple cassette compatibility chart to supplement the the N3W freehub link (https://www.campagnolo.com/WW/en/next_3_ways) robertbb posted above, as they did for 10/11/12 shifter/rd/fd compatibility, various cassette combinations over the years, etc. Those charts are always so clear and easy to read, incredibly useful given the extent of Campagnolo compatibility.

[thirdgenbird]

Will there be a freehub to support the older style axle? Not expecting it, but it would be cool.

[Black Dog]

I haven't seen the press drops yet. But I'm guess things have since you're talking about it. Here are pics of the Shamal Carbon Discs I got last week. I got a few pairs in. One is already on the way to someone.

Some details:
-It comes with a longer lockring as you can see in the picture
-12x100 front / 12x142 rear ONLY!
-$1485 is freaking awesome for an actual Campy made wheelset.
-They ARE Made in Italy.
-No proprietary spokes!
-2-Way Fit
-Comes with rotor lockrings
-Comes with tire levers and tubeless valve cores
-Weight wise, pretty comparable to others like Hunt. Within 100 grams of everyone in this price range. They don't FEEL heavy. BUT, they are Made by Campy! Better warranty, better compatibility.
-LOVE the 'Winged Wheel' graphic and the new Campagnolo graphic. NOT a fan of the Shamal Carbon graphic.
-AND they are backwards compatible! So no issues on these. You can run all the way to a 9 speed if you want. The've future and past proofed them.

These spin up quick, feel really smooth. Look amazing.

Yes this is more to come next month and in September. I'll find out the drop dates Monday. But I think it's the 15th for August and 19th for September. Brain hurts this morning.

On a side note... clearly I'm not full of **** like some PM'ed to me. I don't get the negativity. Seriously. Some people have sent over such nasty hatefilled screeds about how I'm full of ****, don't know what I'm talking about, a liar. I don't get it. Most people like the tease of new stuff. If people don't want me to do it, fine. I'll happily STFU with it. You'd figure someone with first-hand knowledge of it would be a good thing though. Sorry, rant over.

Please don't let the haters rob the rest of us of your great and knowledgable contributions to this forum. What a bunch of maroons.

[FlashUNC]

NDA not have a release date in the contract?

Not something you should be guessing about posting.

[Velocipede]

NDA not have a release date in the contract?

Not something you should be guessing about posting.

No. It doesn't have a release date in it, not for when things will be presented. I was told them over the phone.

[Hindmost]

I've enjoyed the stuff Velocipede has posted. I don't find the information is crucial for me, rather I'm simply a long time Campagnolo fan. If I don't believe the information is accurate, I can disregard it. If I don't care for a communication style, I can move on.

[Roadguy]

Wonder what the time table is for updating the WTO lineup. I know they aren't 100% off target but I would love to see 21mm there to match offerings from the likes of Roval etc.

[m_sasso]

" Please keep posting, its nice to have some industry people here." Agree 99.99999% !

Hey Michael,

Sorry to hear you are receiving hate mail, way to many nut cases around these days. If I knew who they were, I would be happy to find them some help or provide them with some of their own medicine.

Stick with us, and write all you want, I am confident the majority of members appreciate you being here and keeping us updated much of the time with what's honestly happening in the industry.

The picture I posted earlier of the new Campagnolo wheel bags was just grabbed from Glory Cycles not mine, I am pretty sure it was just showing off the new style bags.

And I honestly mean it, thanks again for being part of the TPF.

[thirdgenbird]

Not sure this was supposed to happen:
https://www.cycling-univers.fr/vélos/wilier-collection-2021/jena/

Priced in line with GRX di2. I expected mechanical but who knows...

Edit:
https://vimeo.com/400969998

[robertbb]

Campagnolo "EKAR"... 1x13

Surely that's a leak?

What's an EKAR anyway?

[FlashUNC]

No. It doesn't have a release date in it, not for when things will be presented. I was told them over the phone.

I meant when you're released from your obligations under the NDA.

But it seems like a fairly flimsy doc they've been holding you to anyways.

[Velocipede]

Not sure this was supposed to happen:
]

Just gotta ruin things, don’t you?! Lol!! Interesting that those were posted. My guess someone thought Sunday was the day for everything.

[thirdgenbird]

Just gotta ruin things, don’t you?! Lol!! Interesting that those were posted. My guess someone thought Sunday was the day for everything.

My guess is that’s that happened with the wilier link. I saw it posted elsewhere so it was bound to end up here.

The Vimeo thing is odd. That video was posted four months ago. I stumbled into it by doing a few quick searches after seeing the info on the wilier page. I was trying to see if any other retailer did the same thing. I think the video only had 3 views when I found it. About 60 now. It must have been hiding in plain sight.

I’m interested to see if they already pushed things thinner than 12 speed or if this is based on the same chain width and spacing. The extra cog may be large enough to cantilever over the hub and spokes enough to make room for it.

[fignon's barber]

Paceline Woke Culture is so weird. Hang in there Velocipede.

[fignon's barber]

The new Shamal wheel is basically the Fulcrum Wind 40 db with a new freehub. I've got the Wind 40's (they've been out for about 9 months) and they are really good wheels.

[oldpotatoe]

Velocipede-
On a side note... clearly I'm not full of **** like some PM'ed to me. I don't get the negativity. Seriously. Some people have sent over such nasty hatefilled screeds about how I'm full of ****, don't know what I'm talking about, a liar. I don't get it. Most people like the tease of new stuff. If people don't want me to do it, fine. I'll happily STFU with it. You'd figure someone with first-hand knowledge of it would be a good thing though

Anybody that reads any of your posts knows you are a great source for all things Campagnolo..and if they are too ignorant to see that, well, they can just pound sand. They are the dumm****e's, not you.

[thirdgenbird]

Well, it looks like some web cleanup happened. Now we wait for more detail.

[Wattvagen]

I wonder if any changes are coming to the Fulcrum line-up?

[Roadguy]

Yup they pulled that right quick! It was in the video as well or just the drop down? Never a dull moment around here it seems.

Still liking the look of things - hope an EPS version isn't too far down. GRX di2 is dialed.

[thirdgenbird]

The video was a teaser. It showed the “why” but not the “what.”

[Velocipede]

Supposedly Italy knew about the Wilier thing on Friday. Not sure why it was left up till this morning. The other thing, the video, I'd never seen it before. Given it has no Campy branding, it could be from anyone.

[oldpotatoe]

Something I forgot to mention. This new N3W freehub body will be available aftermarket. So you can upgrade a wheelset you currently have. They aren't available yet but will be.

Huzzah, using the same axle...Copy to shimano and sram....

[Velocipede]

Huzzah, using the same axle...Copy to shimano and sram....

Huh?

[g00se]

I doubt the video was official. The first clips of road racing were non-Campag sponsored teams and of the two gravel bikes... one was SRAM and one was Shimano. The guy had two videos up, the other I can't remember what for, but it was a marketing video of something non-cycling related.

My guess is he used the vimeo account for pitching ideas and forgot to clear it down. I checked my browser history - and googled his name - and he's an art director for an Italian design/ad agency.

[CNY rider]

I doubt the video was official. The first clips of road racing were non-Campag sponsored teams and of the two gravel bikes... one was SRAM and one was Shimano. The guy had two videos up, the other I can't remember what for, but it was a marketing video of something non-cycling related.

My guess is he used the vimeo account for pitching ideas and forgot to clear it down. I checked my browser history - and googled his name - and he's an art director for an Italian design/ad agency.

Good sleuthing!

[oldpotatoe]

I wonder if any changes are coming to the Fulcrum line-up?

The Campag wheel<->Fulcrum relationship is interesting, Fulcrum big into MTB wheels and are found on a lot OE bikes. I'll bet more than a few riders don't even know Fulcrum is "owned" by Campagnolo..Kinda like Honda-Acura type gig...different brand, compete with one another, BUT same parent company.

When riders need to choose between Campagnolo wheels or Fulcrum wheels..guess who wins(besides the rider)?? Yup...

[robertbb]

Good sleuthing!

Very, very good sleuthing. It'd be hysterical if it's not actually called EKAR

[FlashUNC]

The Campag wheel<->Fulcrum relationship is interesting, Fulcrum big into MTB wheels and are found on a lot OE bikes. I'll bet more than a few riders don't even know Fulcrum is "owned" by Campagnolo..Kinda like Honda-Acura type gig...different brand, compete with one another, BUT same parent company.

When riders need to choose between Campagnolo wheels or Fulcrum wheels..guess who wins(besides the rider)?? Yup...

But much like Honda/Acura, that implies they don't really compete. The overlap is minimal, but the separate brand is explicitly intended to cater to a different customer base that the original brand, for a whole host of reasons, cannot get in the door.

No one wants to buy a high end luxury Toyota for example. But people love Lexus.

[robertbb]

But much like Honda/Acura, that implies they don't really compete. The overlap is minimal, but the separate brand is explicitly intended to cater to a different customer base that the original brand, for a whole host of reasons, cannot get in the door.

No one wants to buy a high end luxury Toyota for example. But people love Lexus.

And LEXUS is nothing more than Toyota's acronym for "Luxury EXport US"

[Velocipede]

The Campag wheel<->Fulcrum relationship is interesting, Fulcrum big into MTB wheels and are found on a lot OE bikes. I'll bet more than a few riders don't even know Fulcrum is "owned" by Campagnolo..Kinda like Honda-Acura type gig...different brand, compete with one another, BUT same parent company.

When riders need to choose between Campagnolo wheels or Fulcrum wheels..guess who wins(besides the rider)?? Yup...

Well for awhile there Fulcrum was only Shimano freehubs since Campy refused on their branded wheels. It is a weird situation since Campy NA doesn't sell Fulcrum.

[thirdgenbird]

Well for awhile there Fulcrum was only Shimano freehubs since Campy refused on their branded wheels. It is a weird situation since Campy NA doesn't sell Fulcrum.

Who supports warranty on fulcrum wheels in the US? not that they probably need much of it.

[flying]

Paceline Woke Culture is so weird. Hang in there Velocipede.

:D;) Heheh
No worries Velocipede I bet the majority here appreciate your industry insights. ;)

[Velocipede]

Who supports warranty on fulcrum wheels in the US? not that they probably need much of it.

There's quite a few sellers of Fulcrum in the US. No issues getting things warrantied.

[thirdgenbird]

There's quite a few sellers of Fulcrum in the US. No issues getting things warrantied.

No distributor though? Does the seller work directly with Campagnolo/fulcrum?

[Velocipede]

No distributor though? Does the seller work directly with Campagnolo/fulcrum?

There's more than one distributor of Fulcrum in the US. QBP, Gita, Hawley. All distributors of Fulcrum and can handle warranties. As well as any authorized retailers.

[thirdgenbird]

I just assumed it was all handled through Campagnolo NA.

[Velocipede]

Nah. Campy NA only handles Campy parts. While Campy makes Fulcrum, they are pretty separate brands. There isn't even 100% crossover on everything parts wise.

[dpmackey]

Just put in an order for the new Ekar group and Shamal wheels for my new gravel bike.
:banana::banana:

[AngryScientist]

Just put in an order for the new Ekar group and Shamal wheels for my new gravel bike.
:banana::banana:

really?

details man, details? swedish connections??

[Velocipede]

Jiminy Christmas!! Worst kept secret in history.

[FlashUNC]

Jiminy Christmas!! Worst kept secret in history.

https://media.giphy.com/media/qxtxlL4sFFle/giphy.gif

[dpmackey]

really?

details man, details? swedish connections??

“Ordered” via frame builder currently building a gravel frameset for me.
The frame wont be ready until maybe end of August (best case scenario). The builder expected it to take “a couple of months” for Campagnolo to deliver the groupset - I bet others will get their hands and eyes on the group before me.

[Velocipede]

New media launch date: September 24th.
Pushed back due to COVID and August shutdown.

[thirdgenbird]

40t chainring
9-42t cassette

[AngryScientist]

40t chainring
9-42t cassette

sounds pretty reasonable. i want to see what the crank will look like, as it's the only thing i might potentially use. angry dont do disco.

[thirdgenbird]

It wouldn’t shock me if you could swap a few parts in a 12spd lever and make it 13.

[AngryScientist]

so where did you dig up the intel? or is that classified?

[thirdgenbird]

so where did you dig up the intel? or is that classified?

The cassette and chainring info came from a screenshot that is floating around. It shows the spec of that Wilier gravel bike that leaked a while back.

The shifter conversion is total speculation on my part.

[AngryScientist]

The cassette and chainring info came from a screenshot that is floating around. It shows the spec of that Wilier gravel bike that leaked a while back.

The shifter conversion is total speculation on my part.

gotcha.

i'm still hoping they will expand the double chanring offerings to potentially centaur with the subcompact. let's see!

[thirdgenbird]

gotcha.

i'm still hoping they will expand the double chanring offerings to potentially centaur with the subcompact. let's see!

I’m with you on the centaur subcompact.

See edit above.

[vespasianus]

The cassette and chainring info came from a screenshot that is floating around. It shows the spec of that Wilier gravel bike that leaked a while back.

The shifter conversion is total speculation on my part.

That seems like a pretty good set up. Basically the range of a 50/30 with a 11-32 cassette but loosing the front D.

[Velocipede]

The cassette and chainring info came from a screenshot that is floating around. It shows the spec of that Wilier gravel bike that leaked a while back.

The shifter conversion is total speculation on my part.

Shifter conversion?

[voir dire]

Not really classified. The Ekar spec and screenshot (the Wilier) that was posted here was posted on the Weight Weenies forum some time ago. Likely some other places too.

[thirdgenbird]

The range is very similar to their 48/32 11-34 chorus setup. 467% vs 464%.

I can’t help but thing the gaps will be very noticeable on the road, but that’s not what this groupset is all about.

Here is a quick comparison. The tooth count on the 1x setup is a total guess and missing one cog due to website limitations.

http://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=DERS&KB=40&RZ=10,12,14,16,18,21,24,28,32,36,42,9&UF=2170&TF=85&SL=2.6&UN=MPH&DV=ratio&GR2=DERS&KB2=32,48&RZ2=11,12,13,14,15,16,17,19,22,25,29,34&UF2=2170

Shifter conversion?

Total speculation but if it’s based on the same mechanism as 12spd, it wouldnt shock me if you could swap Ekar guts to chorus. My Record 8 titanium shifters have 10spd guts in them.

[Velocipede]

The range is very similar to their 48/32 11-34 chorus setup. 467% vs 464%.

I can’t help but thing the gaps will be very noticeable on the road, but that’s not what this groupset is all about.

Here is a quick comparison. The tooth count on the 1x setup is a total guess and missing one cog due to website limitations.

http://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=DERS&KB=40&RZ=10,12,14,16,18,21,24,28,32,36,42,9&UF=2170&TF=85&SL=2.6&UN=MPH&DV=ratio&GR2=DERS&KB2=32,48&RZ2=11,12,13,14,15,16,17,19,22,25,29,34&UF2=2170

Total speculation but if it’s based on the same mechanism as 12spd, it wouldnt shock me if you could swap Ekar guts to chorus. My Record 8 titanium shifters have 10spd guts in them.

Ah. Gotcha. Wasn't sure what you meant.

Regarding gaps, never know. They might have other gearing available. Won't know till it's unveiled on Sept 24th.

[thirdgenbird]

Ah. Gotcha. Wasn't sure what you meant.

Regarding gaps, never know. They might have other gearing available. Won't know till it's unveiled on Sept 24th.

:)

[ciclista_tifoso]

.

Official release date ETA? Early August...?

Ah, scanning prior pages it appears it won't be until Sept.


.

[Velocipede]

.

Official release date ETA? Early August...?

Ah, scanning prior pages it appears it won't be until Sept.

.

It was Sept 9th and last week it was pushed back to Sept 24th. I will have ******** in mid to late August. Campy is working most of August this year so they can get things shipped out for the release.

[oldpotatoe]

It wouldn’t shock me if you could swap a few parts in a 12spd lever and make it 13.

If the design is the same. Just a matter of number of 'notches' in the disc plus an appropriate sized take up spool so each click moves the rear der the proper amount. Maybe 11s lever also. I haven't taken a 12s RH lever apart yet..not seen one in person. Anybody want to send me one so I can take it apart?(and put it back together..:))..

[Velocipede]

If the design is the same. Just a matter of number of 'notches' in the disc plus an appropriate sized take up spool so each click moves the rear der the proper amount. Maybe 11s lever also. I haven't taken a 12s RH lever apart yet..not seen one in person. Anybody want to send me one so I can take it apart?(and put it back together..:))..

I've had them thru here but haven't had any with issues. Another kit arriving tomorrow(Chorus 12). It's not heading out till at least September. I could break it down and see what's up.

[weiwentg]

The cassette and chainring info came from a screenshot that is floating around. It shows the spec of that Wilier gravel bike that leaked a while back.

...

I was really, really hoping not for a 9t cog.

[robertbb]

OK this is going to be a long post but I'm really enjoying this discussion...

As I posted on a similar thread on another forum....

"I can kinda see what Campy's getting at with the rumoured 9t cog. Someone mentioned "overdrive" earlier and it seems a good way to describe the concept. Whereas overdrive has in the past been for the low gear (big sprocket) this time it's with the high gear (small sprocket). One's gotta look at the speeds they normally ride at and choose a chainring that compliments the cassette to give nice tight cog spacing (8-10% changes) within their typical speed range and also an "extreme" low gear (aka: granny gear) for climbing and an "extreme" high gear for descending, sprinting, generally hauling ass.

Bigger jumps at the extremes, transitioning towards nice and tight steps in the middle. That's the name of the game with 1x. It's a different paradigm to traditional road cassettes which are usually tight at the high gears and gradually bigger at the low gears."

Anyway, the gear-calculator.com website is incredibly useful for visualising this stuff.

I'm in the process of building my first 1x11 bike and it'll be a hacked together v-brake city bike. Ended up going with my first MTB groupset ever (and first non-Campy groupset ever) because I wanted flat-bar shifting/braking. Went with a 40t chainring up front.

I used the website to compare two 11speed cassettes:

Campy Centaur 12-32
Shimano HG-700 11-34

The comparison is here:

http://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=DERS&KB=40&RZ=12,13,14,15,16,17,19,22,25,28,32&UF=2185&TF=85&SL=2.6&UN=KMH&DV=teeth&GR2=DERS&KB2=40&RZ2=11,13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27,30,34&UF2=2185

Centaur on top HG-700 on bottom.

Now, other than the HG-700 having a slightly wider range the key point is where the tight jumps are clustered and how that relates to a single chainring. Whereas the Centaur cassette has nice, tight jumps at speeds between 26-35km/h, the HG-700 cassette is tighter in the 15-24km/h range.

I wouldn't dream of pairing the 11-34 with a double chainset for primarily road use, but with a 1x system that cassette just makes more sense (when paired with a chainring selected for the types of riding you will be doing).

With that all said, the 9t cog may actually make a lot of sense in the "overdrive" scenario in which it is intended to be used rarely. Definitely looking forward to seeing what Campy does in this space! As has been said, multiple chainring options is key! With sensible cassette options 1x13 for anything other than pure road riding might be a real winner.

[sjbraun]

Another thing I don't get about 1x- people talk about all you have to do is change your chain ring to match your ride. Really?? What a pain in rear. With a 2x, 48x31 and 11-34 in the back I can ride darn near anything I encounter and golly, shifting a front derailleur really isn't that cumbersome. Plus, if I need more gears, I'd much rather change a cassette than mess with changing a chain ring.

Okay- rant over.

[Velocipede]

Another thing I don't get about 1x- people talk about all you have to do is change your chain ring to match your ride. Really?? What a pain in rear. With a 2x, 48x31 and 11-34 in the back I can ride darn near anything I encounter and golly, shifting a front derailleur really isn't that cumbersome. Plus, if I need more gears, I'd much rather change a cassette than mess with changing a chain ring.

Okay- rant over.

Changing a ring on a 4 bolt crank is super fast. Faster than pulling a wheel, replacing the cassette, putting the wheel back in. Adjusting the derailleur and brake. It takes about 5 minutes if that to swap a ring out on most 1x cranks. Unless it's the kind where the ring is splined and you need to pull the crank. Even then that's not horribly time consuming. I get your point though.

[voir dire]

Another thing I don't get about 1x- people talk about all you have to do is change your chain ring to match your ride. Really?? What a pain in rear. With a 2x, 48x31 and 11-34 in the back I can ride darn near anything I encounter and golly, shifting a front derailleur really isn't that cumbersome. Plus, if I need more gears, I'd much rather change a cassette than mess with changing a chain ring.

Okay- rant over.

This.
Changing a chainring is not really so fast or convenient at all for many people; it is a hassle. Lose a chainring bolt, even worse. Having to pull the crankset to replace the chainring and then reverse the process when one gets home just to go on a different ride? That's crazy, even more a hassle.

1x13 with a 9T "in the "overdrive" scenario in which it is intended to be used rarely" effectively means the 1X13 is practically speaking 1x12.

Having to buy multiple chainrings for various rides seems a hassle whereas many people own two or more wheelsets with two different cassettes, and the wheel swap truly is immediate, the most simple operation of all. Even changing cassettes is a 5-minute job at best, very simple.

1x13 seems a restricted market-driven niche which maybe will be fashionable for a short while but very possibly just another fad that is not any really significant improvement to most riding. But I know I am not the target market for 1x at all.

[morrisond]

Yay - 9T and 13 gears - that also works great for 2x - it would be really nice tight gearing.

A 9-22 Straight Block (to 20 and then a jump to 22) in the back and 43/27 in the front - that would give me slightly more gear Inches in the front (129 vs 127.6) vs 52/11 and slighlty lower in the back than 36/29 - 33.1 vs 33.5

[Dave]

From the weight weenies website, more info on Campy 1X13.

https://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat20200239105.pdf
https://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat20200240506.pdf

Noteably are three 13-speed cassette specs:

9-10-11-12-13-14-16-18-21-25-30-36-42

9-10-11-12-13-14-16-18-20-23-27-31-36

10-11-12-13-14-15-17-19-22-26-32-38-44

We may see 13 speed also be applied to 2X road bike applications, but it may only be on disc brake bikes.

I'm pleased with the SRAM 10-36 cassette on my chorus 12 bike. From the info above, I can see that Campy would choose different sprocket jumps for a 10-36 12 speed cassette. Drop the 9T off. Then you get 10-11-12-13-14-16-18-20-23-27-31-36. SRAM chose 10-11-12-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36.

[vespasianus]

From the weight weenies website, more info on Campy 1X13.

https://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat20200239105.pdf
https://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat20200240506.pdf

Noteably are three 13-speed cassette specs:

9-10-11-12-13-14-16-18-21-25-30-36-42

9-10-11-12-13-14-16-18-20-23-27-31-36

10-11-12-13-14-15-17-19-22-26-32-38-44

We may see 13 speed also be applied to 2X road bike applications, but it may only be on disc brake bikes.

I'm pleased with the SRAM 10-36 cassette on my chorus 12 bike. From the info above, I can see that Campy would choose different sprocket jumps for a 10-36 12 speed cassette. Drop the 9T off. Then you get 10-11-12-13-14-16-18-20-23-27-31-36. SRAM chose 10-11-12-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36.

On a completely separate topic, as someone who writes patents for biology stuff, I am dumfounded you can get a patent for this...

[Velocipede]

On a completely separate topic, as someone who writes patents for biology stuff, I am dumfounded you can get a patent for this...

The reading on some of the things they file and GET, amazing! I'm still shocked on some of them.

[rain dogs]

I wouldn't dream of pairing the 11-34 with a double chainset for primarily road use, but with a 1x system that cassette just makes more sense (when paired with a chainring selected for the types of riding you will be doing).


Huh? Why not? An 11-34 only makes sense for a 2x system as it would be terrible as 1x unless you live where it's flat.

Going up a 12%-15% slopes with a 42 x 34 sounds bad on road, but off road that's just plain awful.

1x with anything less than a 40 or 42 on the back is just silly IMHO. Unless you have a tiny chainring up front, but then it's equally silly.

[Mark McM]

Going up a 12%-15% slopes with a 42 x 34 sounds bad on road, but off road that's just plain awful.

Back in the day, we used it ride those slopes in even bigger gears - say, a 42 x 24 (or even lower). But that's back when cylists were tough, and real cyclists rode straight blocks:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=253057&highlight=straight+block

[FlashUNC]

This.
Changing a chainring is not really so fast or convenient at all for many people; it is a hassle. Lose a chainring bolt, even worse. Having to pull the crankset to replace the chainring and then reverse the process when one gets home just to go on a different ride? That's crazy, even more a hassle.

1x13 with a 9T "in the "overdrive" scenario in which it is intended to be used rarely" effectively means the 1X13 is practically speaking 1x12.

Having to buy multiple chainrings for various rides seems a hassle whereas many people own two or more wheelsets with two different cassettes, and the wheel swap truly is immediate, the most simple operation of all. Even changing cassettes is a 5-minute job at best, very simple.

1x13 seems a restricted market-driven niche which maybe will be fashionable for a short while but very possibly just another fad that is not any really significant improvement to most riding. But I know I am not the target market for 1x at all.

Uh you don't need to pull the crankset to swap rings. Really, it's only 4 bolts.

[rain dogs]

Back in the day, we used it ride those slopes in even bigger gears - say, a 42 x 24 (or even lower). But that's back when cylists were tough, and real cyclists rode straight blocks:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=253057&highlight=straight+block

It has nothing to do with "is it humanly possible" ie. stupid to push big gears like that, it's what makes sense for general use. Most 'gravel' offerings on the market are still over-geared for everything but hero gravel.

and before another response like above comes... I use to ride a brakeless fixed gear with a 52x15 (91") in a hilly city, but I wouldn't go advocating even half that for a low gear on a gravel bike. Besides, aren't we tired yet of the whole whip it out and measure inches? gear inches of course....

[voir dire]

Uh you don't need to pull the crankset to swap rings. Really, it's only 4 bolts.

Uh I never claimed one had to pull a crankset. The other guy did. I was responding to that statement.

[Mark McM]

Back in the day, we used it ride those slopes in even bigger gears - say, a 42 x 24 (or even lower). But that's back when cylists were tough, and real cyclists rode straight blocks:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=253057&highlight=straight+block
It has nothing to do with "is it humanly possible" ie. stupid to push big gears like that, it's what makes sense for general use. Most 'gravel' offerings on the market are still over-geared for everything but hero gravel.

and before another response like above comes... I use to ride a brakeless fixed gear with a 52x15 (91") in a hilly city, but I wouldn't go advocating even half that for a low gear on a gravel bike. Besides, aren't we tired yet of the whole whip it out and measure inches? gear inches of course....

Sorry, I forgot to hold up the sign when I posted that.


https://i.pinimg.com/236x/94/f0/cb/94f0cb21bd56b93e42b4e712200eced6--perspective-quotes-eren.jpg

[FlashUNC]

Uh I never claimed one had to pull a crankset. The other guy did. I was responding to that statement.

You did. But whatevs man. You do you.

[voir dire]

You did. But whatevs man. You do you.

What is this? What does "whatevs man you do you" even mean? Again, I was referring to the post previous which referred to having to pull cranksets in some cases. You misread, apparently. I am not seduced by 1x13, specifically not by the need to replace chainrings for various rides whether the crankset needs to be removed or not, but clearly others are. So what.

[oldpotatoe]

Changing a ring on a 4 bolt crank is super fast. Faster than pulling a wheel, replacing the cassette, putting the wheel back in. Adjusting the derailleur and brake. It takes about 5 minutes if that to swap a ring out on most 1x cranks. Unless it's the kind where the ring is splined and you need to pull the crank. Even then that's not horribly time consuming. I get your point though.

BUT, not as fast as pushing the lever to shift to the 'big' ring...I know you get the 'point', but like MTB 'stuff' onto 'road' bikes...1by on a smooth, sunny day ass-felt road bike is a-comin..gad zooks. :eek:

[FlashUNC]

What is this? What does "whatevs man you do you" even mean? Again, I was referring to the post previous which referred to having to pull cranksets in some cases. You misread, apparently. I am not seduced by 1x13, specifically not by the need to replace chainrings for various rides whether the crankset needs to be removed or not, but clearly others are. So what.

I'm sorry I misread your post where you agreed with someone that changing chainrings is a pain, and offered an example in support that one would need to pull the crankset to swap said rings. Which is, again, not the case for basically every single ring crankset in the universe, whether on the track or down at the local shredly gravel trail.

If, one the other hand, I had read it correctly, my follow up post was an attempt to let go a discussion locked in a deeply pedantic argument that is boring for all parties involved.

And yet here we are.

[Mark McM]

BUT, not as fast as pushing the lever to shift to the 'big' ring...I know you get the 'point', but like MTB 'stuff' onto 'road' bikes...1by on a smooth, sunny day ass-felt road bike is a-comin..gad zooks. :eek:

My first multi-speed derailleur bike was a 1x.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_onJSqbps_dY/TJWDVkYlEkI/AAAAAAAABUs/tXARdF6obS4/s400/DSCN5462.JPG


Then when I grew up all my bikes had front derailleurs.

[voir dire]

I'm sorry I misread your post where you agreed with someone that changing chainrings is a pain, and offered an example in support that one would need to pull the crankset to swap said rings. Which is, again, not the case for basically every single ring crankset in the universe, whether on the track or down at the local shredly gravel trail.

If, one the other hand, I had read it correctly, my follow up post was an attempt to let go a discussion locked in a deeply pedantic argument that is boring for all parties involved.

And yet here we are.
OK. Good for you.

[AngryScientist]

here is an interesting article on ekar.

https://cyclingtips.com/2020/08/patent-filing-reveals-details-of-campagnolos-new-ekar-13-speed-cassettes/

https://cdn-cyclingtips.pressidium.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Campagnolo-Ekar-cassette-feature-1.jpg

[sg8357]

Anyone think Campy will make a road 13 ?
Narrow the cassette range to 11/12 to 28/32 ?

[oldpotatoe]

Anyone think Campy will make a road 13 ?
Narrow the cassette range to 11/12 to 28/32 ?

Even tho he won't answer, ask Velocipede:)

[Velocipede]

Even tho he won't answer, ask Velocipede:)

LOL!!! Oh I can answer. But until Sept 24th it'll be a No Comment. IF!!! It had something to do with whatever is coming on Sept 24th.

Side note: by the way, to those wondering about the whole NDA and whatnot, more than one guy from Campy read the whole thread and the others I've commented on. All of them agreed I was totally fine in my comments and didn't breach the NDA. One of them from the US, I was on the phone with while we were reading these. He was totally fine in my comments. Found it funny even all the stuff posted on here including the links to things. And of course the patent info which mentions the amount of gearing. He didn't realize all the info was out there already. So as I said before, not a really well kept secret.

Anyways, back to a road 13, I have not seen or heard anything of a road 13 speed group. Also, there will not be an EPS kit other than Super Record. Campy made that decision because the Chorus and Record EPS kits, it was a 4 to 1 sales difference, SR v R&C kits. They feel it's not worth it. So no Record or Chorus EPS 12 kits.

[bfd]

Also, there will not be an EPS kit other than Super Record. Campy made that decision because the Chorus and Record EPS kits, it was a 4 to 1 sales difference, SR v R&C kits. They feel it's not worth it. So no Record or Chorus EPS 12 kits.

Thanks! I think it is sad Campy doesn't offer a lower price group to compete with Ultegra di2 and Force AXS. I haven't looked in a while, but Campy SR EPS always appeared to be more expensive than either DA di2 or Sram AXS/etap.

So the end results is most e-shifting bikes I see on the road are Ultegra di2 bc it is the cheapest and works really well. Yes, there's like a one pound difference between it and DA di2, but for the majority of riders, it doesn't matter.

Because of price, Campy SR will be limited to a very small niche market. But maybe Campy likes it that way. Good Luck!

Good Luck!

[woodworker]

It would be great to have a more affordable EPS 12 than Super Record. I'm amazed at the numbers you cite, four times as many SR sales as Record and Chorus for EPS 11. Not doubting you at all--just surprised.

[makoti]

A bit of drift here, but since we are talking Campy and lower gears...
Anyone know of a source for chainrings that would fit a 5-arm Campy crankset that I could get in subcompact? Thinking 48-30 or there abouts. GOt a squaretaper I want to keep using for travel reasons, but might want to go lower for gravel use. 11/12sp, if it matters.

[Mark McM]

A bit of drift here, but since we are talking Campy and lower gears...
Anyone know of a source for chainrings that would fit a 5-arm Campy crankset that I could get in subcompact? Thinking 48-30 or there abouts. GOt a squaretaper I want to keep using for travel reasons, but might want to go lower for gravel use. 11/12sp, if it matters.

Could you be more specific about which crank this is? Square taper/Ultra-Torque/Power-Torque? BCD (135mm, 110mm)? standard 5 are or "hidden 5th arm"?

[Velocipede]

Thanks! I think it is sad Campy doesn't offer a lower price group to compete with Ultegra di2 and Force AXS. I haven't looked in a while, but Campy SR EPS always appeared to be more expensive than either DA di2 or Sram AXS/etap.

So the end results is most e-shifting bikes I see on the road are Ultegra di2 bc it is the cheapest and works really well. Yes, there's like a one pound difference between it and DA di2, but for the majority of riders, it doesn't matter.

Because of price, Campy SR will be limited to a very small niche market. But maybe Campy likes it that way. Good Luck!

Good Luck!

It would be great to have a more affordable EPS 12 than Super Record. I'm amazed at the numbers you cite, four times as many SR sales as Record and Chorus for EPS 11. Not doubting you at all--just surprised.

Personally I would love it if they did a SR EPS AND a Chorus EPS build. Skip the Record. I think the prices are too close and that's why they had the issues of sales being so mad. They said people who were looking at Record would just get the SR EPS parts and Record for everything else cause the pricing worked out better. And the Chorus was just a bit to much so they were losing out there as well.

[lookout2015]

It would be great to have a more affordable EPS 12 than Super Record. I'm amazed at the numbers you cite, four times as many SR sales as Record and Chorus for EPS 11. Not doubting you at all--just surprised.

I suspect what that ratio really says is Record / Chorus EPS are priced too high to be competitive

SR EPS is the halo - the people who are going to buy it will buy it at whatever price (relatively speaking). For Chorus / Record, that’s not the case and when Ultegra Di2 is half the price ....

[bfd]

I suspect what that ratio really says is Record / Chorus EPS are priced too high to be competitive

SR EPS is the halo - the people who are going to buy it will buy it at whatever price (relatively speaking). For Chorus / Record, that’s not the case and when Ultegra Di2 is half the price ....

Agree. I guess if Campy is interested in offering a lower price EPS group could it use more aluminum like what they did for Chorus 12 mechanical. If so, then it could lower the cost and be more competitive with Ultegra di2, maybe....

Otherwise, Campy EPS is going to be a very small niche market and although it may be considered "halo" to some, more and more people will go to Shimano or Sram, especially if they're looking to upgrade from ultegra di2 or Force AXS.

This sort of reminds me of Serotta. They priced their carbon and ti frames substantially more than their competitors without offering an real, tangible benefits. The end results, people looking for a carbon or it frames looked elsewhere and Serotta eventually died....this could happen to Campy if it is not careful. However, it appears that Campy mechanical is still popular, at least for now, and works really well. I have Chorus 11 mechanical on my DS and love it! So for those of us who want Campy, we can still get mechanical. But e-shifting is here and if newbies are choosing ultegra di2 or Force AXS, then Campy's market share will continue to slide downwards....

Good Luck!

[Velocipede]

Agree. I guess if Campy is interested in offering a lower price EPS group could it use more aluminum like what they did for Chorus 12 mechanical. If so, then it could lower the cost and be more competitive with Ultegra di2, maybe....

Otherwise, Campy EPS is going to be a very small niche market and although it may be considered "halo" to some, more and more people will go to Shimano or Sram, especially if they're looking to upgrade from ultegra di2 or Force AXS.

This sort of reminds me of Serotta. They priced their carbon and ti frames substantially more than their competitors without offering an real, tangible benefits. The end results, people looking for a carbon or it frames looked elsewhere and Serotta eventually died....this could happen to Campy if it is not careful. However, it appears that Campy mechanical is still popular, at least for now, and works really well. I have Chorus 11 mechanical on my DS and love it! So for those of us who want Campy, we can still get mechanical. But e-shifting is here and if newbies are choosing ultegra di2 or Force AXS, then Campy's market share will continue to slide downwards....

Good Luck!

I wished they would do this. A lesser expensive version like the new Chorus 12. More alloy, less carbon. Less cost, more people buying it. It would be great for OEM builds. But Mr. Campagnolo doesn't listen to me so the chance of it happening right now is a nope.

[Coffee Rider]

Anyways, back to a road 13, I have not seen or heard anything of a road 13 speed group. Also, there will not be an EPS kit other than Super Record. Campy made that decision because the Chorus and Record EPS kits, it was a 4 to 1 sales difference, SR v R&C kits. They feel it's not worth it. So no Record or Chorus EPS 12 kits.

Although things may have gotten garbled with imperfect English and a game of telephone, I understand that a 13 speed road group is in the works and they have some in Italy. Of course, what may have been intended to have been conveyed is that they had some Ektar groups being ridden in Italy.

I completely understand not offering a Record EPS group, but I do wish Campy listened to you and did a Chorus EPS group.

[woodworker]

I've had Record 10, Chorus 11, Chorus 11 EPS, Potenza 11, and Chorus 12. I liked all of them--a lot. But if you're asking me which one I liked the best, it was the Chorus 11 EPS. The Chorus 12 is a close second, but the EPS just shifts so well, and the trim feature on the front is nice (although it seems that the need to trim the front derailleur has gone away on the 12). Also, the design and chainring / cassette options on the 12 make it a better system overall.

Thanks for the insights on this stuff. Appreciate it.

[makoti]

Could you be more specific about which crank this is? Square taper/Ultra-Torque/Power-Torque? BCD (135mm, 110mm)? standard 5 are or "hidden 5th arm"?

Yeah, all that would help. Sorry. It's a Square taperRecord CT ULTRADRIVE 10sp (currently running 12 without issue). 110 BCD, hidden 5th.

[Mark McM]

Yeah, all that would help. Sorry. It's a Square taperRecord CT ULTRADRIVE 10sp (currently running 12 without issue). 110 BCD, hidden 5th.

Then you're probably out of luck for an off-the-shelf solution. There are a few solutions for standard 110mm BCD cranks, but these require either: Specially machined crank spiders; or a special chainrings that offset the chainrings inboard and use special bolts. Because Campagnolo in their infinite (lack of) wisdom decided that the BCD of the "hidden" 5th chainring bolt should be 112mm instead of 110mm BCD, so standard 110mm BCD chainrings can't be fitted without modification; and because the chainrings mount to outer surface at the 5th "hidden" bolt, it also requires that the chainrings be of a specific thickness.

It is mechanically possible that you could modify these chainrings to work with your crank, but you'd probably have to do some machining and shimming of the chainrings (to extend the 5th "hidden" bolt hole and match the correct chainring thickness), and cutting, drilling and tapping the "hidden" fifth bolt to use the smaller diameter bolts these chainrings need.

It would probably be a lot easier to change the cranks. There are a number of square taper cranks that can be used with sub-compact chainrings, or you could use a standard 110mm BCD crank and the adapter chainrings.

[R3awak3n]

I wish for campy EPS wireless and available as chorus. It would still be a bazillion dollars but maybe with some saving. The price of 12 speed EPS is laughable.

[vespasianus]

I wish for campy EPS wireless and available as chorus. It would still be a bazillion dollars but maybe with some saving. The price of 12 speed EPS is laughable.

Having something that is equivalent to Di2 would be a good start. Cant say I have heard great things about EPS when compared head to head with the other electronic/wireless offerings.

[makoti]

Then you're probably out of luck for an off-the-shelf solution. There are a few solutions for standard 110mm BCD cranks, but these require either: Specially machined crank spiders; or a special chainrings that offset the chainrings inboard and use special bolts. Because Campagnolo in their infinite (lack of) wisdom decided that the BCD of the "hidden" 5th chainring bolt should be 112mm instead of 110mm BCD, so standard 110mm BCD chainrings can't be fitted without modification; and because the chainrings mount to outer surface at the 5th "hidden" bolt, it also requires that the chainrings be of a specific thickness.

It is mechanically possible that you could modify these chainrings to work with your crank, but you'd probably have to do some machining and shimming of the chainrings (to extend the 5th "hidden" bolt hole and match the correct chainring thickness), and cutting, drilling and tapping the "hidden" fifth bolt to use the smaller diameter bolts these chainrings need.

It would probably be a lot easier to change the cranks. There are a number of square taper cranks that can be used with sub-compact chainrings, or you could use a standard 110mm BCD crank and the adapter chainrings.

Thanks for the info and explanation. I'm really hoping that 34x34 is low enough for what I'll be doing.

[Velocipede]

Although things may have gotten garbled with imperfect English and a game of telephone, I understand that a 13 speed road group is in the works and they have some in Italy. Of course, what may have been intended to have been conveyed is that they had some Ektar groups being ridden in Italy.

I completely understand not offering a Record EPS group, but I do wish Campy listened to you and did a Chorus EPS group.

For the first part, I think things got lost in the translation. It's just what's been reported so far. Nothing in terms of a "road" 13 is in the works. Also, someone mentioned(I think 3rd Bird) wanted to know about making it a 2x, no, you can't. If of course there is such a thing as has been mentioned before which of course I can not comment on.

Second part, I wish they did a Chorus EPS kit. It would be fantastic for OEM bikes. They'd have a great market for it but...

[thirdgenbird]

Any news coming out of Italy this month?

I thought there was going to be a drop in July, August, and September.

Chorus (or Ekar) electronic would be cool but maybe it makes sense to wait for the next generation (wireless) at this point.

[Velocipede]

Any news coming out of Italy this month?

I thought there was going to be a drop in July, August, and September.

Chorus (or Ekar) electronic would be cool but maybe it makes sense to wait for the next generation (wireless) at this point.

It's all in Sept now. Sept 24th.

[thirdgenbird]

It's all in Sept now. Sept 24th.

Bumping this in anticipation.

Anyone see the postage stamp sized photos out there?

[Velocipede]

Bumping this in anticipation.

Anyone see the postage stamp sized photos out there?

huh?

[thirdgenbird]

huh?

There are some bike photos floating around that people say are the new 1x group. They are like 200x200 and details are impossible to see.

[oldpotatoe]

I wish for campy EPS wireless and available as chorus. It would still be a bazillion dollars but maybe with some saving. The price of 12 speed EPS is laughable.

Just a short googlefoo look at SR 12s EPS groups and shimano Dura Ace 11s Di2..

$3290 and $3189:eek:

[vespasianus]

Just a short googlefoo look at SR 12s EPS groups and shimano Dura Ace 11s Di2..

$3290 and $3189:eek:

I thought his issue was that with Shimano you can get a Ultegra di2 Disc for ~$2000 but with Campag, your only option is Super Record EPS. A 12 speed Chorus EPS Groupset for $2000 would be killer.

[lookout2015]

Just a short googlefoo look at SR 12s EPS groups and shimano Dura Ace 11s Di2..

$3290 and $3189:eek:

Sure, but Ultegra Di2 is $1600. Campy’s effectively given up on competing with Di2 when they’ve abandoned that big meaty middle of the market....

[R3awak3n]

I thought his issue was that with Shimano you can get a Ultegra di2 Disc for ~$2000 but with Campag, your only option is Super Record EPS. A 12 speed Chorus EPS Groupset for $2000 would be killer.

ding ding ding

[weiwentg]

I wished they would do this. A lesser expensive version like the new Chorus 12. More alloy, less carbon. Less cost, more people buying it. It would be great for OEM builds. But Mr. Campagnolo doesn't listen to me so the chance of it happening right now is a nope.

Anyone know why they stopped doing Athena EPS?

[FlashUNC]

Anyone know why they stopped doing Athena EPS?

No one bought it.

[R3awak3n]

No one bought it.

I feel like very few people have bought EPS in general

[KJMUNC]

I feel like very few people have bought EPS in general

well, when you can buy Ultegra Di2 for $1600, I don't see anyone lining up to buy a level lower from Campy for more money.

It seems like the only EPS I see is on super high-end/"cost is not an issue" builds. I tried to consider it for my latest Factor O2 build but the functionality and cost compared to Shimano just isn't there.....not even close.

[bfd]

I feel like very few people have bought EPS in general

Lol, here’s a question, when Athena or even Chorus EPS was available, what was it selling for? It didn’t seem to be available “online.” I think Bianchi and another mfr had it as an option, but I never saw one in the wild.

Good Luck!

[oldpotatoe]

I thought his issue was that with Shimano you can get a Ultegra di2 Disc for ~$2000 but with Campag, your only option is Super Record EPS. A 12 speed Chorus EPS Groupset for $2000 would be killer.

It is I was answering the 'geez louizz, Campag is SO expensive', comment.
The price of 12 speed EPS is laughable.