Serotta Frame. Eye Candy or ?

[ridesmart]

Hi, picked this frame up recently but don't know anything or history about it. Check out the lugs. Looking for any history or ? No serial number stamped on frame. It looks old-Please chime in. Thanks

[oliver1850]

This is going to be a tough one to pin down. Fillet brazing of BB and TT suggest that it's a Colorado II, which should have had internal TT brake cable routing. Could be one that's been updated and repainted. May have been an employee built frame, which could explain lack of serial number.

Second look at the photos, surely a repaint. Is the top tube round, or is it oval shaped at the ends?

[dave thompson]

If it's an early enough frame the serial number would have been stamped on the steer tube of the fork not the frame.

[robt57]

If that was my size, light, and reasonably cheap I;d not have be able to pass on it. ;)

But, What the fuss is up with the 1/2 brazed TT/HT lug?

[guyintense]

That's not a race number tab, it's a cable stop.

[robt57]

That's not a race number tab, it's a cable stop.


Yes, i see that now...

[Peter P.]

But, What the fuss is up with the 1/2 brazed TT/HT lug?

I believe that's called "bi-laminate construction" and some builders today do that for whatever reason.

I don't believe production Colorado Concept frames had fillet brazed BB's. That, and the unusual top tube cable guide and lack of serial number incline me to believe it was likely built for an employee and not for sale.

[Black Dog]

The fillet brazing was done on early models with the new oversized and swagged Colorado tube set because there were no lugs that would fit the tubes. Serotta had lugs made just for the tubes.

[David Kirk]

This frame is a bit of an odd bird....it's either a back-door bike or a production bike that has been modified and repainted.

A production bike never would have been painted that way and it never ever would have had those cable guides.....and of course a production bike would have a serial number on the BB shell each and every time.

If I had to guess it's a bike built by an employee with stolen materials and I personally would not trust it. The few guys who liked to steal parts and make bikes to sell mainly to Skidmore students were not skilled builders and there was no accountability or QC. They hacked bikes together with what ever parts they could get (hence the odd cable guides never used on bikes of this era) and painted them themselves of gave a few six packs or a bag of dope to someone in paint to paint it over the weekend. All too many bikes went out the door this way and they had most of the things that made a Serotta a Serotta but not all of them and they typically had no serial number. A few of these bikes were discovered when they failed (or had such poor alignment as to be unusable) and were brought into a Serotta dealer and that dealer contacted the factory. This never ended well.

Buyer beware.

dave

[Matthew]

That's interesting David. I would never have thought that a handful of employees would do that from a custom frame builder. Turds come in all shapes and sizes. Glad my Meivici is legit!

[David Kirk]

That's interesting David. I would never have thought that a handful of employees would do that from a custom frame builder. Turds come in all shapes and sizes. Glad my Meivici is legit!

It's sad but true. The vast majority of the guys were good people who wanted to make the best stuff they could and have the company thrive....however there were a few who thought they should be paid more, or have a better position, who took advantage of the uncontrolled growth and general looseness of the place to "get what they deserved".

One decided he would start his own Ti bike company and built samples and prototypes using Serotta parts and labor and touted the work as his own. He was caught and fired and charges were pressed. A few others volunteered to work weekends (for overtime pay of course) to help the company keep up with orders but instead of doing the needed work they stole parts and built back-door frames and sold them to get the money they thought they deserved....so they got paid overtime pay to build bike of highly dubious quality that they then sold. Not a bad way to make some money. At least one of these guys is still in the bike biz I'm sorry to say. I'm NOT talking about Kelly Bedford or Dave Wages who were awesome employees and coworkers.

These counterfeit bikes were most often sold to students at Skidmore College where the kids had deep pockets and the cycling community was very active...and of course those bikes went with the students and ended up everywhere when the kids went home.

I could tell endless stories but they can't undermine the awesome work that the crew did. We had a skilled team of people who built some of the finest bikes money could buy and I'm proud to have played my small part in that. A few a-holes who stole from the place don't diminish that.

dave

[velomateo]

Cool frame. There was a steel Serotta fork on ebay last week, that was probably long enough for that head tube...gone now

[Brian Smith]

That's interesting David. I would never have thought that a handful of employees would do that from a custom frame builder. Turds come in all shapes and sizes. Glad my Meivici is legit!

Matthew, I think in the era of the Meivici (and well prior to that) this type of activity had long been squelched. In my time with the company, I'd say the most "regrettable" common practice undertaken by employees regarding framesets was the purchase/assembly of employee frames through the appropriate and fair channels, not primarily to be ridden by the employee, but rather as a store of value to be liquidated either upon termination or during furloughs. In these cases, the resulting bikes were sound and usually regular production models, they just perhaps didn't do much to kindle nor to further an employee interest in cycling or the company's products.

With all of that said, I am not in any way contradicting Dave's stories from his tenure, which predated mine, and his opinion regarding the old frame currently being discussed is one I'd listen to attentively.

[mokofoko]

It's sad but true. The vast majority of the guys were good people who wanted to make the best stuff they could and have the company thrive....however there were a few who thought they should be paid more, or have a better position, who took advantage of the uncontrolled growth and general looseness of the place to "get what they deserved".

One decided he would start his own Ti bike company and built samples and prototypes using Serotta parts and labor and touted the work as his own. He was caught and fired and charges were pressed. A few others volunteered to work weekends (for overtime pay of course) to help the company keep up with orders but instead of doing the needed work they stole parts and built back-door frames and sold them to get the money they thought they deserved....so they got paid overtime pay to build bike of highly dubious quality that they then sold. Not a bad way to make some money. At least one of these guys is still in the bike biz I'm sorry to say. I'm NOT talking about Kelly Bedford or Dave Wages who were awesome employees and coworkers.

These counterfeit bikes were most often sold to students at Skidmore College where the kids had deep pockets and the cycling community was very active...and of course those bikes went with the students and ended up everywhere when the kids went home.

I could tell endless stories but they can't undermine the awesome work that the crew did. We had a skilled team of people who built some of the finest bikes money could buy and I'm proud to have played my small part in that. A few a-holes who stole from the place don't diminish that.

dave
Neat to read these stories (skeletons in the closet). I like collecting serotta frames (up to 6 now), and if I ever find one without a serial, I'm going to keep this in mind and pass regardless of the price.

[Ken Robb]

I bought my Legend ti from a shop on Long Island that I don't think was ever a Serotta dealer. The bike had a serial # indicating a stock 60cm. but Serotta had no record of its being ordered or sold. I was told that it was a gift to a man on LI who was some kind of industry VIP who was given bikes by other companies too. When he was done with them he sold them through the shop that sold me my Legend. The bike was like new with 10 speed Dura Ace group and top-of-the-line Ksyriums. I loved the bike except the wheels because they got pushed around too much for my comfort when riding along the coast with the usual crosswinds. I replaced them with 32 hole Ultegra/Open Pros which were better for my riding.

[Matthew]

Yeah, I wasn't really worried about my Meivici, I got it from Belmont Wheellworks. Has a serial number, etc. And a custom paint job just like the one featured in the '06 catalog. It's an awesome bike that I foolishly considered selling in the past. Never again.

[jet sanchez]

My old Colorado II has the half lug at the top of the headtube and is of a similar colour but it has a serial number.

Fantastic bike just wish I had a matching steel fork

https://i.imgur.com/EwgofPs.jpg

[David Kirk]

As is true with most crooks they are stupid.....I always wondered why they didn't just make up a serial number or reuse from from the past. It would have made detection much harder.

But they were not the brightest bulbs in the lamp and displayed great hubris.

dave

[R3awak3n]

could this just also not be a bike that someone painted yellow and put serotta decals on?

[David Kirk]

could this just also not be a bike that someone painted yellow and put serotta decals on?

While most anything is possible I doubt it. It has most of the things that make a Serotta a Serotta in that era....the fillets BB shell but socket chainstays, the top tube/head tube 1/2 lug, the tapered seat and down tubes. These things would be very hard to come by and the way it was done someone would be working hard to build a frame that was built just like a Serotta.

It is possible that the paint is an inch thick and covering the serial number on the BB and that it's a production bike. If it is it certainly got a repaint and the cable guides changed at some point because we never used that style of guide.

dave

[shinomaster]

It's sad but true. The vast majority of the guys were good people who wanted to make the best stuff they could and have the company thrive....however there were a few who thought they should be paid more, or have a better position, who took advantage of the uncontrolled growth and general looseness of the place to "get what they deserved".

One decided he would start his own Ti bike company and built samples and prototypes using Serotta parts and labor and touted the work as his own. He was caught and fired and charges were pressed. A few others volunteered to work weekends (for overtime pay of course) to help the company keep up with orders but instead of doing the needed work they stole parts and built back-door frames and sold them to get the money they thought they deserved....so they got paid overtime pay to build bike of highly dubious quality that they then sold. Not a bad way to make some money. At least one of these guys is still in the bike biz I'm sorry to say. I'm NOT talking about Kelly Bedford or Dave Wages who were awesome employees and coworkers.

These counterfeit bikes were most often sold to students at Skidmore College where the kids had deep pockets and the cycling community was very active...and of course those bikes went with the students and ended up everywhere when the kids went home.

I could tell endless stories but they can't undermine the awesome work that the crew did. We had a skilled team of people who built some of the finest bikes money could buy and I'm proud to have played my small part in that. A few a-holes who stole from the place don't diminish that.

dave


I knew a kid in High school who got a Heavily discounted white Serotta MTB from an employee with no decals. This was about 1991 in Elmira NY.

[weisan]

Serotta Frame. Eye Candy or ?

Not this one, but if you want to see what's truly eye candy, check this one out:
https://mariposabicycles.ca/blog/2019/12/11/vintage-bicycle-feature-gardin-with-campagnolo-c-record-gold-components-canada1983/

[ridesmart]

Thanks again for info. They frame really looks like original paint. I looked for any indentation for Serial number under the paint and found nothing. The top tube is ovalized to head tube. One other thing is that the rear drop outs are Campy.

[David Kirk]

Thanks again for info. They frame really looks like original paint. I looked for any indentation for Serial number under the paint and found nothing. The top tube is ovalized to head tube. One other thing is that the rear drop outs are Campy.

There are very few things in life that I'm 100% sure of but one of them is that that is not the original paint. The frame never would have left the factory with those decals in those locations.

It's been repainted.

dave