OT: For the Parents & Educators: What is Happening in the Fall?

[XXtwindad]

I recently saw this article in my feed:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/americas-pediatricians-say-schools-should-reopen-this-fall_l_5efb5931c5b6ca9709157324

"The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) has come out strongly in favor of schools having students return to the classroom in the fall, despite the ongoing risks associated with COVID-19.

“The AAP strongly advocates that all policy considerations for the coming school year should start with a goal of having students physically present in school,” the group said in an update to its guidance for school re-entry.

The guidance asserts that “the importance of in-person learning is well-documented,” and that evidence already has emerged of “negative impacts” on children due to school closures in the spring."

I immediately emailed the link to several friends. There is certainly a consensus among the parents I know that getting kids back to an environment surrounded by other children is a necessity. It seemed to be a hopeful bit of clarity.

This opinion, however, is not shared by everyone. One of my closest friends is a teacher. And a really, really good one at that. She is dedicated to her job. She also has an ailing elderly mother who lives in Michigan. In person schooling for her would mean that she would not be able to see her mother for a year. At least. So for her, going back to school physically is not tenable.

And then I read this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/03/us/coronavirus-college-professors.html

College students are understandably anxious to get back to campus. Their professors may not share that enthusiasm.

Our school district has sent out a few emails outlining a number of different possibilities. Basically, it really sounds like no one has a clue what's going to happen. Do any of the educators on the Forum have any thoughts? Any parents? As a parent, "remote learning" sounds like a really depressing oxymoron. But I'm afraid it might be here to stay for awhile.

[Hilltopperny]

Here in NYS there is literally no word. My wife is a teacher and she has been told to prepare for three scenarios which are split schedules, return fully and online. Some data points that everyone should see https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JbPgvv2GKMw


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[mcfarton]

Montgomery county Maryland is planning a hybrid environment. Probably 3 days in the classroom and two days at home. Or 2 days in the classroom and 3 days at home.

My oldest daughter is supposed to start kindergarten. My wife and I are leaning towards holding her back a year. Her younger sister is 3 so it’s not a stretch for us. I don’t think that what you learn in kindergarten can be achieved online.

I would love to see an official plan but I don’t think that one exists yet. And it really is subject to change anyway.


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[Spaghetti Legs]

Right now our city school system draft plan for K thru 6 is option of 4 days in person, 5th day online or 100% online; 7 thru 12 is 2 days/week in person, remainder on line vs 100% on line. School buses will also operate at 50% capacity. My youngster will be a 7th grader, so barring a blow up in the pandemic here (very much possible) we’re leaning toward the in person option. A lot of the learning in school occurs outside the lecture setting.

My oldster is in college in the UC system and they will be on line. I get it but I’m not particularly pleased as all indications are it will still be full tuition.

[FlashUNC]

Here in NYS there is literally no word. My wife is a teacher and she has been told to prepare for three scenarios which are split schedules, return fully and online. Some data points that everyone should see https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JbPgvv2GKMw


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What the junior Senator from Kentucky omits from his ever-so-insightful analysis is all of those countries are more aggressive and comprehensive with testing and contact tracing. They are light years ahead of us.

[verticaldoug]

UMich is starting in the fall, going straight until Thanksgiving. After thanksgiving break, all classes and finals will be online. Winter break will last until beginning of Feb when students return to campus. No spring break. Large classes will be held online.

There was a opinion piece in the WSJ on June 30 about Cornell's plan to reopen in the fall.

This all seems doable. Sports, however, seem a bridge too far in the fall.

My daughter was able to have a delayed start to her summer internship. Even after a week of going to an office, I see a change in attitude and believe it has been a godsend for her mental health.

[Bruce K]

Massachusetts is still a bit in flux but the numbers are supposedly some of the best in the US

This is what what we have for guidelines so far but they are a work in progress:
- Everyone masked with periodic “mask breaks”
- No screening at entry
- Individual desks for students
- Class sizes limited by 3 foot social distances
- Meals brought to classroom - no cafeteria
- Separate (from nurse’s office) supervised Covid symptom space for students
who may develop symptoms during the day and need to wait for
parents/guardians
- We don't Know if students will move from classroom to classroom or if teachers
will, or if no one will.
- Learning will be “live”, on line, or a mixture depending on above

Again, things may change as we get closer to opening.

No idea what transportation will look like.

BK

[Hilltopperny]

What the junior Senator from Kentucky omits from his ever-so-insightful analysis is all of those countries are more aggressive and comprehensive with testing and contact tracing. They are light years ahead of us.


What are you talking about? I posted a video based on data including those countries. Quit following my every post in order to try and have them shut down. Are you an educator or even have children? Your rhetoric is getting old!


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[FlashUNC]

What are you talking about? I posted a video based on data. Quit following my every post in order to try and have them shut down. Are you an educator or even have children? Your rhetoric is getting old! Quit stalking my posts!


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And his analysis of said data omits several critical points of context for why those countries are the way they are.

Heaven forbid we discuss on a discussion forum.

[mhespenheide]

Honestly, no one really knows. There are all sorts of plans being put in place on paper, but -- to quote Sun Tzu -- plans seldom survive the first encounter with the enemy.

Teacher here. Our admin is trying to figure out what might work, and we're essentially tasked with double work of needing to have "hybrid" teaching plans in place for both in-person and remote learning. But we won't really know what's going to happen until the middle or August and we see what the numbers are.

The lack of collective action and care for the larger community that leads to the current/resumed uptick in cases doesn't give me a lot of faith.

[XXtwindad]

Honestly, no one really knows. There are all sorts of plans being put in place on paper, but -- to quote Sun Tzu -- plans seldom survive the first encounter with the enemy.

Teacher here. Our admin is trying to figure out what might work, and we're essentially tasked with double work of needing to have "hybrid" teaching plans in place for both in-person and remote learning. But we won't really know what's going to happen until the middle or August and we see what the numbers are.

The lack of collective action and care for the larger community that leads to the current/resumed uptick in cases doesn't give me a lot of faith.

I really appreciate you and Bruce weighing in. The two people on the site I knew were educators and was hoping to get input from.

My teacher friend and I were talking, and she said my daughters and kids their age would be the "COVID Generation." That put the FOG in me. Really depressing. I'd like to get some more of your thoughts (or anyone's)

1)What about recess? "Playing" is a fundamental part of childhood. What's going to happen with that?

2) Is there going to be a possible schism between public and private schools? I have a friend who sends his kids to a private school. He said they largely have a plan in place. The optics of private schools and public schools having two different courses of action won't look good.

3) In addition to being an educator, you're also a parent of young children, I think. (As is Adam's wife) Is there a dichotomy between these two roles in terms of how to safely open?

[marciero]

As far as higher ed goes, too much to say on this. But this is all over publications like the Chronicle of Higher Ed, Inside Higher Ed, etc. Some schools are going completely online with ugrad-Yale, for example "nearly all courses". But places like Yale can do that. At less prestigious places, students will not pay full tuition for all online. There are many pedagogical approaches which blend online and face to face, allowing cohorting of students in a class-essentially halving the f2f contact hours to allow less density and distancing.


QUOTE=XXtwindad;2750897]

And then I read this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/03/us/coronavirus-college-professors.html

[/QUOTE]

It should be noted that the guy they picture, who "wont set foot on campus" is not a regular paid faculty member. Emeritus faculty are basically retired. It's purely titular. Allows them to keep their email, use the gym, etc. It's misleading to present him as a representative case.

[Jaybee]

I've got a 6yo and a 7yo. They desparately need the social interaction and in-person learning that comes with school. Their bubble is just too small right now.

[Hilltopperny]

And his analysis of said data omits several critical points of context for why those countries are the way they are.

Heaven forbid we discuss on a discussion forum.


If you watched the video then you would have seen the part where he mentions through CONTACT TRACING, but heaven forbid we discuss that.


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[texbike]

We're just not sure how everything is going to work out here in Austin at the moment. My daughter is entering high school and is REALLY looking forward to it. She thrives on social, in-person interaction and wants to play a couple of sports. Austin is currently talking about a hybrid model of online and in-person learning However, we're less than 6 weeks away from the beginning of school and are seeing HUGE spikes in the infection rates. I just don't know how they're going to be able to pull off the in-person/onsite aspect of it. Think about the density levels and lack of potential social distancing in classrooms, cafeterias, and even on buses. Our schools in Austin ISD have been struggling with overcrowding in its current facilities for years. There really isn't any way to accommodate proper social distancing. It'll be interesting to see how this evolves over the next month.

[mavic1010]

So with one going into Jr HS and another entering HS, we’ve decided to send the Jr HS one to purely online schooling, partially because of COVID, but more so for other reasons. The HS one will have the option of Hybrid (2 days at school, 3 days online), or strictly online. The Jr HS is a private school, and the HS is a public school.

The more frightening thing is the OC Board of Ed will not be requiring masks as its not based on science and could be potentially harmful, in addition, social distancing being deemed as “unacceptable”.

We were strongly moving towards a hybrid model for the older one, but without enforcement of masks and the school unable to enforce due to the board’s recommendations, we may have to do the online option which I didn’t want to do since this will be her freshman year.

[akelman]

I worry that, as so often happens, we inverted our priorities. Rather than focusing on opening schools safely in the fall, we decided to open restaurants and bars and gyms and other crowded, indoor facilities where people either can't or won't wear masks. Now, the rate of infection is through the roof in many parts of the country that were, as recently as a month ago, in relatively decent shape. I'm not sure we can put that genie back in the bottle. I sure hope so, because kids, particularly kids from lower-income backgrounds, really need to be in school for social and pedagogical reasons (and for a host of other reasons as well).

[paredown]

^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

Friends who teach at Pace are telling me that the administrators are planning to reopen for on-campus teaching for Fall, but there is much confusion and pushback--Deans and faculty in particular are not happy with the plans being for forward--not least because of the problem of suitable classrooms once you try to distance.

There was a very early Op-Ed article (2 months ago?) in the NYTimes from the President of Brown University calling for return for the fall--and a great counter article from someone who teaches at CUNY, essentially pointing out that a good part of the imaginings of the Brown Prez would not work/are not feasible on an older/poorer campus (which many of the CUNYs are) with antique air handling, old fashioned locking doors, small classrooms etc.

And where the rubber meets the road is--can we expect hormonal adolescents to observe reasonable precautions regarding distancing and hygiene--and having witnessed up close and personal, my answer would he a hard no.

I'm glad I'm no longer in the game...

[David in Maine]

I'm an elementary music teacher here in Maine. Maine is doing pretty well lately, but the steady growth of tourism might change that. Our students ended the year a week early, so teachers could have some technology training and make plans. We had to plan for 3 scenarios--in person, distance, and hybrid. The state DOE will make a decision for the whole state, but individual districts will work out the details. Recent comments from the commissioner leave me feeling pessimistic about in-person school--the cost of PPE, extra busses and staff etc. to do safe instruction might be too much (expecting federal aid seems hopeless) for the state to manage. As a music teacher for little kids, virtual instruction has been pretty difficult to pull off in a meaningful way. It's been a depressing time. I don't know if and when group singing can return and that is especially troubling. Glad I got my new Seven in the Fall before all of this!

David

This teacher on F-book puts words to many of my feelings: https://www.facebook.com/notes/mitch-lingo/covid19-guilt-and-the-breaking-point-of-teachers/10157250583027621/

[unterhausen]

Penn State seems to be going with the model of "business as usual until Thanksgiving." I think that might work, except PSU is a drinking school with a football problem. If they manage to close down gyms and bars, it will be a lot better. The bars here were the first thing to reopen though.

Penn State pays bars to stay closed on State Paddy's day and Saint Patrick's day. So paying bars to be closed is possible.

They would also have to ban frat parties, which they should do anyway.

Like the rest of higher ed, Penn State has moved rapidly to huge classes. And even then the classrooms are overcrowded. So that's not good. OTOH, online is not all that much worse than a class with 150 people in it where the prof can't see the people in the back.

[twolve]

2nd grade teacher at a private school in California here. Right now, we are planning for the three scenarios listed above, all at home, all on campus, and a hybrid model. So far, all our planning has been for on all on campus learning, and we will start thinking of hybrid next (which is the most tricky for me to plan). I'm fortunate that I am young and don't have a lot of the risk factors, but it will be a lot of sacrifice not being able to visit my elderly grandma or relatives. I certainly feel for public school teachers mandated to be back; as teachers we sign up to make sacrifices, but not martyrs. I also certainly agree that the biggest benefits of schools are being together and developing a healthy social life, so whatever we can do to get kids on campus together is good. I think my school is going to split classes into groups of about 12-16. I'll have group 1 on Monday and Wednesday, group 2 on Tuesday and Thursday, while a subject teacher has them on the opposite days. Classes will predominately be held outside, if not solely outside. I am all planning my curriculum in regards to what is best for learning at school, and what works best at home, as I am fairly certain at least some of our school be distance learning this year.

I'm also watching the news and rising cases and deaths, and becoming very saddened and disheartened.

[pdmtong]

As important as the opening plans will be the response plan when the inevitable occurs.

I have scene the basic three scenario proposals but no mention of the response when a student or faculty member tests positive. The unfortunate individual goes into two week quarantine?

[Bruce K]

I think this could have been discussed without the political stuff

Too many unknowns and it is very much a fluid situation.

We should be able to discuss the OPs question from a family/educator/administrator standpoint.

Thanks

BK

[unterhausen]

Penn State has a large hotel that they are going to use for quarantine. The thing that I am somewhat concerned about is testing. No indication thus far that they are planning an extensive testing regimen, which is certainly a necessity.

My only dealings nowadays are with grad students. Grad students come in if they are very sick. Hoping we can change that in our lab.

The first Penn State student died from covid this week. Hate to think of how many people he infected.

[DeBike]

In Delaware, the scheduled start for ELHI is Sept. 8th. That is in no way a definite. I believe the next 2 weeks after this 4th of July weekend is going to be critical in forthcoming decisions regarding of the starting of the school year in most areas of the USA. Here at the beach area of Delmarva, Covid has begun to spike, phase 3 of reopening has been put on hold, some businesses have been closed again, limits kept in place or increased or increased in others, and most areas now require a mask anywhere out in public.

I can ride my bike maskless in rural, uncrowded areas, but if I ride into the beach areas or state parks, I have to put a mask on. It is looking likely that more stringent restrictions are soon to follow.

[rallizes]

at this point planning for the fall is impossible

[OtayBW]

I worry that, as so often happens, we inverted our priorities. Rather than focusing on opening schools safely in the fall, we decided to open restaurants and bars and gyms and other crowded, indoor facilities where people either can't or won't wear masks. Now, the rate of infection is through the roof in many parts of the country that were, as recently as a month ago, in relatively decent shape. I'm not sure we can put that genie back in the bottle. I sure hope so, because kids, particularly kids from lower-income backgrounds, really need to be in school for social and pedagogical reasons (and for a host of other reasons as well).
Good point!

[AngryScientist]

In NJ, the governor has said that in-person learning WILL be a thing, and all districts must offer some form of in-person learning.

They put out a set of mandatory guidelines that each district must figure out how to implement and meet or exceed the guidelines. Districts must submit their plans for approval at least 1 month prior to opening, which means very early August, which gives them roughly a month to pull something together.

I'm expecting to hear about a modified schedule, maybe a 3-day rotation, perhaps morning and afternoon sessions.

The governor's guidance also very specifically states that if anyone is uncomfortable going back to in-person school, they will not be required to, that goes for staff and students. The intent is to not force someone in the high risk group into a higher risk situation.

Of course that presents ALL sorts of problems for each district to manage on their own.

The larger piece of the puzzle is that many parents relied on before and after care so they could go to work and have someone to look after the kids for the full work day. those things are almost certainly going away, and modified schedules is going to present a logistics nightmare for any working parents.

I think anything done to socially distance the kids is going to wind up being largely short circuited as the before and after school activities and childcare situations are going to mingle them and expose each other, no matter how good the intent.

Everything is intermingled to some degree and there is a lot to unwrap, but none of it can be looked at in a vacuum as the knock on effects of one decision can't be ignored.

i want nothing more than to see my kids back in a good learning environment, able to play, socialize and mingle with their friends and feel safe going to school, but unfortunately under even the most optimistic views of how this is going to go, that reality is pretty far off.

[mhespenheide]

I worry that, as so often happens, we inverted our priorities. Rather than focusing on opening schools safely in the fall, we decided to open restaurants and bars and gyms and other crowded, indoor facilities where people either can't or won't wear masks. Now, the rate of infection is through the roof in many parts of the country that were, as recently as a month ago, in relatively decent shape. I'm not sure we can put that genie back in the bottle. I sure hope so, because kids, particularly kids from lower-income backgrounds, really need to be in school for social and pedagogical reasons (and for a host of other reasons as well).

Exactly. That's what I was alluding to in my earlier comments. It's depressing to look abroad and see other countries have far greater success with controlling the outbreak of CoVID-19, while watching the US largely flounder.

As the author of the facebook article (https://www.facebook.com/notes/mitch-lingo/covid19-guilt-and-the-breaking-point-of-teachers/10157250583027621/) points out, teachers have long gotten the shaft in ways large and small up until this point. Mandating a health risk is going to push some of them past the breaking point. As a profession, we're largely made up of people who want to make a difference in the world and are tolerant of being asked to make sacrifices; I don't want to be a martyr to someone else's ideas about the importance of a haircut, or having a drink in a bar. Worse, I don't want to risk the health of my 9-month old, because he doesn't have much of an immune system yet.

My wife and I have been correspondingly careful for months, but coming back into contact with students, and then those students being in contact with their families who may or may not be being careful in the larger community, a day care provider for my son, and any contacts he or she might have with the larger community...

Let's throw some numbers out there, because I like quantitative reasoning. We'll say for the sake of argument that there's a 2% infection rate. That's a 98% that any single person is not infected. If you come in contact with two people, the chance that both of them are not infected is (0.98)(0.98). Three people? (0.98)(0.98)(0.98). And so on. But this is an exponential decay curve; you only need to be in contact with 80 people to get a 50% chance that at least one person is infected. With a small school, like mine, let's say 300 people, there's less than 1% chance that no one's infected.

Now that's a pretty simple analysis, but as a basic point it stands. Worse, I'm teaching at a small independent (read "private") school; I don't know that we'd survive, financially, opening remotely. Very few parents would want to sign up to pay for that. So the administration is pushing to open in-person at the end of August, even with the commensurate risks.

[joosttx]

My nephew and my cousin’s two kids have been diagnosed with Covid this week. The nephew’s Dad is obese in his early 60s, prediabetic, and suffers from high blood pressure. He hung out with him on Sunday. My cousins husband is a golf pro and now has to quarantine during the busiest part of his year. If infected he could lose a month out of the three months he really makes his dough. Wear a mask, social distance, wash hands.

[AngryScientist]

My nephew and my cousin’s two kids have been diagnosed with Covid this week. The nephew’s Dad is obese in his early 60s, prediabetic, and suffers from high blood pressure. He hung out with him on Sunday. My cousins husband is a golf pro and now has to quarantine during the busiest part of his year. If infected he could lose a month out of the three months he really makes his dough. Wear a mask, social distance, wash hands.

keep it on topic or i'm closing the thread. this has zero to do with the topic of schools, and we're not turning this into the corona thread.

[joosttx]

keep it on topic or i'm closing the thread. this has zero to do with the topic of schools, and we're not turning this into the corona thread.

Understood. It was really cathartic to write this out. We live in a school district with some very wealthy people. What some well to do parents are doing is joining together and hiring private tutors to teach their kids next year. Basically, creating their own private schools.

[AngryScientist]

Understood. It was really cathartic to write this out. We live in a school district with some very wealthy people. What some well to do parents are doing is joining together and hiring private tutors to teach their kids next year. Basically, creating there own private schools.

i'm very sorry to hear that your family has been touched by this. you guys out in CA are in a bad place now, where we were several weeks ago. fortunately NJ is on a steep decline, i sure hope CA can get things in check soon also.

back to school: i guess some private tutors will make some money off this opportunity. i bet some of the homes out that way are large enough to make a decent dedicated schooling space too. our version of school from home consists of the dining room table and our backyard. the one positive note of the pandemic is it has mostly been in favorable weather so at least the kids can get fresh air everyday.

[joosttx]

i'm very sorry to hear that your family has been touched by this. you guys out in CA are in a bad place now, where we were several weeks ago. fortunately NJ is on a steep decline, i sure hope CA can get things in check soon also.

back to school: i guess some private tutors will make some money off this opportunity. i bet some of the homes out that way are large enough to make a decent dedicated schooling space too. our version of school from home consists of the dining room table and our backyard. the one positive note of the pandemic is it has mostly been in favorable weather so at least the kids can get fresh air everyday.

They are all in Texas. The idea is to have the tutor live in the guest house and teach like three kids in the neighborhood. Everyone is tested regularly.

[mavic1010]

It’s just not the wealthy that are considering this. I’ve heard this in my circles as getting a handful of students and paying private school monthly tuition should cover a private tutor.

Understood. It was really cathartic to write this out. We live in a school district with some very wealthy people. What some well to do parents are doing is joining together and hiring private tutors to teach their kids next year. Basically, creating their own private schools.

[john903]

I am afraid what a lot of people and school districts are forgetting is School Buses. Here in Washington state the schools do plan on reopening similar to what a lot of other states are doing. Such as smaller classes, regular desks, no lunch in a cafeteria. They have also talked about alternating days to help limit how many kids are in each class. The district has also created an online school for the kids. I am a School Bus driver and our district plans on having the kids and driver wear masks and limiting the number of kids on the bus such as every other seat, as well as having windows open for more ventilation. We will sanitize our buses before and after each route, and no more hanging out in the break room. Yes fall is going to interesting to say the least.

[mdeth1313]

I teach high school in NY. Our school has 2500-3000 students. I just don't see how they can make this work, especially when you figure in the kids that will refuse to wear masks for whatever reason - political, stupid teenager, etc.

Adding on to that the hallways - even with alternating days, split schedules, I already see pictures of teenagers hanging out and not social distancing.

Just like everything else in education, it would cost way too much to do it right - testing, social distancing, etc. Most budgets have been cut as it is.

As has been mentioned, many people look at it from a child care perspective instead of a safety issue.

[XXtwindad]

This whole thing is a complete and utter mess. The answers here are indicative of that. One state's policy is completely different from another's, which has been par for the course.

It really sounds as if the needs of kids are going to come in conflict with the health concerns of educators. It's a total Catch-22. I don't really understand the benefit of "two days remote/two days physical presence." How does that deal with the conundrum above? It seems half-assed. Most parents (myself included) are hankering for a sense of normalcy when it comes to scheduling.

I think the AAP guidelines make sense. Conversely, if there's going to be a full-fledged war between children and educators, than perhaps we're better off going totally "remote." The caveat is that not every household has the capability to do that, and those inequities need to be addressed. Otherwise, the Pandemic (if it hasn't already) will exacerbate the gulf in education.

[joosttx]

This whole thing is a complete and utter mess. The answers here are indicative of that. One state's policy is completely different from another's, which has been par for the course.

It really sounds as if the needs of kids are going to come in conflict with the health concerns of educators.


Don't forget the health of the parents. From what I know about child psychology and develop having a parent or parents die is not the best thing for a child's development.

[akelman]

Don't forget the health of the parents. From what I know about child psychology and develop having a parent or parents die is not the best thing for a child's development.

Depends on the parent.

[steelbikerider]

Just retired last month after 35 years of jr. high and glad I did. We transitioned to on-line learning the last 9 weeks, it was rough for all.
My old school(900 students, south of Houston) is prepping for 3 possibilities:

a regular schedule with as much social distancing as possible, students go straight to class from the bus, eat in the classroom, modified passing period in the hallway but not sure how, no lockers, 25 students per class

alternate day schedule with half the students doing online at home while the other half is at school

100% at home and online

I feel for the teachers. They will have a huge workload increase with multiple lessons going on at home and at school at the same time. Student access to technology is an issue. Even in a suburban district, about 1/3 of my students had technology issues. Special Education students with modified lessons suffered without regular and legally required assistance.

A conspiracy theory guy I occasionally ride with says that one reason for the lack of info is schools are waiting until contract opt out day is past before announcing.

What noone is saying is what will happen when school starts and everyone sends their kids regardless of their health. After 9 weeks, kids with no symptoms will infect half the teachers and then ???

Another important issue is school sports and extra curricular activities.

[stien]

My wife is a teacher coming off maternity leave and it's a slight nightmare to think about sending our daughter to day care this fall. I really won't do it unless there is a vaccine or until the virus is 100% wiped out. She still doesn't know what's going to happen but I hope schools will make accommodations for parent/teachers.

[gasman]

Depends on the parent.

This comment is uncalled for.

[XXtwindad]

This comment is uncalled for.

yes. thx.

[Spdntrxi]

This whole thing is a complete and utter mess. The answers here are indicative of that. One state's policy is completely different from another's, which has been par for the course.

It really sounds as if the needs of kids are going to come in conflict with the health concerns of educators. It's a total Catch-22. I don't really understand the benefit of "two days remote/two days physical presence." How does that deal with the conundrum above? It seems half-assed. Most parents (myself included) are hankering for a sense of normalcy when it comes to scheduling.

I think the AAP guidelines make sense. Conversely, if there's going to be a full-fledged war between children and educators, than perhaps we're better off going totally "remote." The caveat is that not every household has the capability to do that, and those inequities need to be addressed. Otherwise, the Pandemic (if it hasn't already) will exacerbate the gulf in education.

The two days on / off is for nothing more than :

1. Funding

and a distant #2. reduce the number of bodies on campus at a time.

[akelman]

This comment is uncalled for.

I was joking. Sorry it didn't land for you. But honestly, if my tongue-in-cheek comment is the one in this thread that got your attention, I'm not sure what to say.

[akelman]

yes. thx.

You literally can't help yourself, can you? No matter how many times I ask you just to back off, you refuse. I honestly don't understand why I occupy so much real estate in your head. It's weird and, as I've said before, creepy.

[Hilltopperny]

You literally can't help yourself, can you? No matter how many times I ask you just to back off, you refuse. I honestly don't understand why I occupy so much real estate in your head. It's weird and, as I've said before, creepy.
You get threads shut down on the regular because you are intolerant of other peoples views and make outlandish and uncalled for comments on a regular basis. I honestly cannot believe that you educate other human beings about tolerance since yours is non existent! I also cannot believe you haven't received a warning for antagonizing other members with said intolerance. I find you very offensive and that is the truth. How many threads need to be shut down because you make snide, rude remarks to others and yet no backlash from the mods!:butt::butt::butt:

[vqdriver]

no one honestly believes there's a magic bullet answer for this. forget state to state. district to district will have to find their own answers, each with their own flaws and merits. there's no getting around the fact that this fall every school district across the country will decide what compromises to make while balancing students' learning, students' health, faculty health, budgets, the pragmatics of lunches and bussing, etc.... for the districts serving poorer neighborhoods, there's a social services aspect to this that is a reality that can't be ignored for some, a non-issue for others.

again, there's lots of ideas. none are perfect.

[XXtwindad]

You get threads shut down on the regular because you are intolerant of other peoples views and make outlandish and uncalled for comments on a regular basis. I honestly cannot believe that you educate other human beings about tolerance since yours is non existent! I also cannot believe you haven't received a warning for antagonizing other members with said intolerance. I find you very offensive and that is the truth. How many threads need to be shut down because you make snide, rude remarks to others and yet no backlash from the mods!:butt::butt::butt:

Agreed. Let’s hope another thread doesn’t get shut down.

[akelman]

You get threads shut down on the regular because you are intolerant of other peoples views and make outlandish and uncalled for comments on a regular basis. I honestly cannot believe that you educate other human beings about tolerance since yours is non existent! I also cannot believe you haven't received a warning for antagonizing other members with said intolerance. I find you very offensive and that is the truth. How many threads need to be shut down because you make snide, rude remarks to others and yet no backlash from the mods!:butt::butt::butt:

Let's be absolutely clear about something: you regularly post conspiracy theories, many of which are well known antisemitic dogwhistles. You regularly post racist comments. You want me to stop calling you out for bigotry? Stop being a bigot in my line of sight.

[akelman]

Agreed. Let’s hope another thread doesn’t get shut down.

I'm sorry that I occupy so much real estate in your head. For what it's worth, I literally don't give your existence a second thought except when, despite being asked politely over and over to steer clear of me, you keep looking for fights with me. It's weird and creepy.

[AngryScientist]

stand by.

under review.

[gasman]

Reopened as requested by some-play nice all you parents

[jtakeda]

I dont have kids but this is such a tricky subject because on one hand you absolutely have to think about the well being of the children but on the other there is an entire support staff that makes a school function.

Custodians, cafeteria, administrative, teachers obviously, nurses etc.

You have to weigh in the safety of all those people and their families as well.

The biggest issue I can think of is what happens if a student or teacher contracts the virus? It would throw the entire plan out the window and you have to have a game plan for all these what if situations. I have a hard time believing school districts are prepared to figure out solutions for all these situations in 1 month

I heard harvard decided to do the entire 2020-2021 year online so its possible higher education might follow but I dont see it happening for k-12 maybe half online half in person?

[Hilltopperny]

I just want to clarify after being called a racist anti Semite that my grandfather was Jewish and my family is multi racial including my daughter, nieces, step father and brother in law. I believe that those kinds of words are thrown around by people too easily in order to shut down oppositional thought. Certainly not trying to get this shutdown and think this topic is very important!

Just wanted to have a chance to let folks know that just because my opinion may be different doesn’t mean I am something that I am not and that those who don’t agree with me are clearly welcome to their own thoughts and views! It does not have to devolve into a uncivil conversation of childish name calling and nonsensical claims.

Hopefully this thread can proceed with civility as I am not here to ruffle any feathers!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bruce K]

Again, that is one of the options.

Alternating days, alternating half days, some online while in the classroom....

We just don’t know yet.

Exposure is my biggest concern but I am also very concerned about the social/emotional well being of my scholars and the accountability and potential learning gaps that could result from extended on line learning.

The idea of 3 foot distancing when new data seems to indicate 6 feet may not be enough in closed spaces is another issue for school planning.

BK

[Ken Robb]

I just heard that Harvard will offer no on-campus classes this Fall. Hmm, how will courses that NEED lab work be taught if this is so.

San Diego Unified School District hopes to be able to offer parents choices of "traditional" on campus classes, all off-campus remote classes, or a combination of both techniques but there are still many questions about what will really be possible.

My wife teaches all the music programs in a Lutheran K-8 school and they have done a wonderful job of remote teaching. Of course with classes of 12 or fewer that's easier to do than districts of many thousands and classes of 25-40 pupils.
In addition to teaching the classes for the school Leslie has been giving one-on-one lessons to her private piano/organ students via ZOOM from our music room at home and they are going very well. In fact I'll bet parents working from home would probably pay double just to have the kids off their hands for a music lesson. :)

[peanutgallery]

On the collegiate level:
For school to happen in the fall, lots of things will have to change (and improve immensely) in the next 45 days or so. Shipping The Boy off to college on August 11 and I'm currently pretty skeptical as to how its going to happen knowing what we know about the Rona. Logistic challenges and liability will be interesting. Another part of me wonders if Covid is the reckoning that higher ed has been flirting with for the last 20 years or so. In the arms race to create and develop property and leverage debt for the coolest gym/dorm/caf...is there a bridge too far? Is this it? Post mortem will be interesting

K-12? It'll never be the same

[peanutgallery]

How does an institution justify this as compared to the cost? Harvard might be able to get away with it, but places like Dickinson, Ithaca, Washington and Lee?

Not to mention the fact that their respective staffs have decades of experience...not teaching in this manner. It'll be interesting

I just heard that Harvard will offer no on-campus classes this Fall. Hmm, how will courses that NEED lab work be taught if this is so.

San Diego Unified School District hopes to be able to offer parents choices of "traditional" on campus classes, all off-campus remote classes, or a combination of both techniques but there are still many questions about what will really be possible.

My wife teaches all the music programs in a Lutheran K-8 school and they have done a wonderful job of remote teaching. Of course with classes of 12 or fewer that's easier to do than districts of many thousands and classes of 25-40 pupils.
In addition to teaching the classes for the school Leslie has been giving one-on-one lessons to her private piano/organ students via ZOOM from our music room at home and they are going very well. In fact I'll bet parents working from home would probably pay double just to have the kids off their hands for a music lesson. :)

[Dino Suegiù]

I do not see how any learning that is by definition hands-on or interactive such as science labs, or studio arts courses, or architecture/design, or theater, or music, even team sports, etc., can effectively be taught remotely, especially at the advanced high school/college/university level.

Private K-8 or HS (or even advanced level) individual music lessons, etc via ZOOM might be OK, but I don't see how that can works for ensembles, and Bard, Harvard, Berklee, Juilliard, etc. let alone the local CC where that interchange is critical and formative. Arts/design/theater courses even less so. Designing a building, doing a physics experiment, doing Shakespeare, dissecting the frog all via ZOOM only? Chemistry labs? 4x100 relays, virtually? It sounds like a disaster in the making. Collaboration is not the same on some screen and mic.

I had a doctor's appointment via telephone today. As benign an experience as possible, it still sucked not to be in the room, discussing.

And children not playing together, sharing and collaborating and gleaning, is children not learning as creatively and effectively, and so sadly potentially becoming less "children" by the ZOOM call.

What a bizarre, hideous state of affairs. To deny the culpability of agencies is to just ostrich the whole thing further forward, a waste.

[dbh]

How does an institution justify this as compared to the cost? Harvard might be able to get away with it, but places like Dickinson, Ithaca, Washington and Lee?

Not to mention the fact that their respective staffs have decades of experience...not teaching in this manner. It'll be interesting

Simple answer is their costs for providing education don't go down in the shift to remote learning. You've still got to pay for the physical plant, salaries and benefits for faculty and staff, etc. Working in higher ed, I can very much attest to the fact that universities of all stripes, not just the well-endowed ivies are bleeding cash. A ton of smaller schools aren't going to survive this. Losing more revenue from food and board as well as the many tuition dollars from full pay international students is going to hurt a lot.

[XXtwindad]

I read a couple of interesting articles this weekend:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/How-will-Bay-Area-classrooms-work-in-the-fall-15381406.php

We’ve compiled several scenarios, and asked teachers and officials to imagine those first days of school in the fall.

Half of a third-grade class lines up outside a classroom, 6 feet apart, masks on. Typically, the teacher would greet each student with a fist bump or choreographed handshake. Instead, he stands back as Group A students file to their desks. The other half, Group B, is at home, waiting for lessons via videoconference. Those at home will swap with the other group for in-person instruction the following week. The kids in the classroom are instructed not to touch the guitars, keyboards or ukuleles hanging on the walls, or the other curiosities and items their veteran teacher has collected as teaching tools over the years. They are prohibited from gathering on the carpet where normally they would sit hip to hip for read-aloud time. Instead, the teacher leads a morning class cheer using sign language, so students avoid yelling or singing, reducing the chance of coronavirus spread.

The scenario is a little sad, said Mark Rosenberg, a third-grade teacher at San Francisco’s Monroe Elementary. Gee, ya think?

On the other hand, from a perspective of a working mother: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/02/business/covid-economy-parents-kids-career-homeschooling.html

"Let me say the quiet part loud: In the Covid-19 economy, you’re allowed only a kid or a job. I resent articles that view the struggle of working parents this year as an emotional concern. We are not burned out because life is hard this year. We are burned out because we are being rolled over by the wheels of an economy that has bafflingly declared working parents inessential."


At this juncture in time, we're being asked to reimagine everything. Some institutions are more conducive to being reimagined: it's not too hard to transition your living room into an office or gym. But "going to school" has been ingrained in our cultural psyche for two centuries. And now, the proverbial "little school on the hill" is to be replaced by ... Zoom.

But what other choice is there? I have a friend and client whose father is very ill. And his seven year-old daughter needs an education and to be around other kids. It's a no-win situation.

[peanutgallery]

It's going to be interesting, wondering if it's a long awaited market adjustment

Simple answer is their costs for providing education don't go down in the shift to remote learning. You've still got to pay for the physical plant, salaries and benefits for faculty and staff, etc. Working in higher ed, I can very much attest to the fact that universities of all stripes, not just the well-endowed ivies are bleeding cash. A ton of smaller schools aren't going to survive this. Losing more revenue from food and board as well as the many tuition dollars from full pay international students is going to hurt a lot.

[dbh]

It's going to be interesting, wondering if it's a long awaited market adjustment

Unlikely. Will probably just cull the weakest from the herd. Think small colleges and universities that lack brand cache and endowments yet they charge sky high tuition. For those colleges, it may well be game over. I think in fact at many top tier public schools, you're just going to see tuition increase because state funding is going to drop and international enrollment is going to take a huge hit.

[rustychisel]

Simple answer is their costs for providing education don't go down in the shift to remote learning. You've still got to pay for the physical plant, salaries and benefits for faculty and staff, etc. Working in higher ed, I can very much attest to the fact that universities of all stripes, not just the well-endowed ivies are bleeding cash. A ton of smaller schools aren't going to survive this. Losing more revenue from food and board as well as the many tuition dollars from full pay international students is going to hurt a lot.

This.

It's a worldwide thing in higher education. We're good here (comparatively) but the international student market has been stopped in its tracks. I'm teaching about 50% this semester, all of it remote (is what we're told so far), and I consider myself lucky.

[happycampyer]

<snip>

I heard harvard decided to do the entire 2020-2021 year online so its possible higher education might follow but I dont see it happening for k-12 maybe half online half in person?I just heard that Harvard will offer no on-campus classes this Fall. Hmm, how will courses that NEED lab work be taught if this is so.

<snip>That's not what I have heard. My understanding is that Harvard is limiting on-campus attendance to 40% of its students, allowing only freshman and some upperclass students to attend in-person in the fall. Freshmen could get sent home in the spring under two of three scenarios, depending on conditions with the virus.

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/7/6/harvard-college-coronavirus-fall-plans/

[parris]

I haven't read the entire thread and if this has been covered already I apologize.

Some of the things that we're hearing locally that is a potential issue is that a good number of teachers are in a higher risk category due to age, health issues, family with health issues etc. That goes the same for many staff that work in schools. Then there's the issue of school bus drivers that are in those same category classes. How many kids to a bus? How's that bus going to be cleaned? Are all the kids going to be temp checked before they get on a bus etc etc etc.

Our local university is looking to go to a shortened fall semester. What's been proposed is cut out ALL breaks, run the classes until Thanksgiving which would be the end of the fall semester, don't allow students off campus once they're there. When was the last time a bunch of college kids ever stayed on campus during a weekend? The off campus thing is completely off the wall. The university has not only the main campus but also 3 remote sites! Then there's the issue of commuter students. Our son is one of these.

The whole issue is a mess that has no easy answers.

[peanutgallery]

That'll be a shift in the market

Pretty bad when the admin is leveraging the future of a institution on student fees for ancillary services and international students paying full boat. Guessing those admins won't be getting their bonus:) FWIW, dropping the boy off the 2nd week of August at a state school. Interested to see what actually happens

Unlikely. Will probably just cull the weakest from the herd. Think small colleges and universities that lack brand cache and endowments yet they charge sky high tuition. For those colleges, it may well be game over. I think in fact at many top tier public schools, you're just going to see tuition increase because state funding is going to drop and international enrollment is going to take a huge hit.

[jtakeda]

That's not what I have heard. My understanding is that Harvard is limiting on-campus attendance to 40% of its students, allowing only freshman and some upperclass students to attend in-person in the fall. Freshmen could get sent home in the spring under two of three scenarios, depending on conditions with the virus.

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/7/6/harvard-college-coronavirus-fall-plans/

In addition to freshmen, Harvard will host as many students who “must be on campus to progress academically” this fall as it can without exceeding the 40 percent threshold. All courses will be taught virtually for students both on and off campus.

They will have people on campus who dont have sufficient access to computers or a place to live up to 40% but everything is online

On campus attendance doesnt mean on campus classes

[ColonelJLloyd]

It's a no-win situation.

Until we have a vaccine it seems that's the short of it.

[joosttx]

Might a good year for college kids just take and year off and travel the world. My nephew has covid right now and he told me he is kinda glad he got it because he doesn't have to worry about it when he returns for college. If I were his parent and his classes were online I would strongly consider buying him a ticket somewhere to explore or to volunteer for something overseas. Or intern a year or work a year at something.

[jtakeda]

Might a good year for college kids just take and year off and travel the world. My nephew has covid right now and he told me he is kinda glad he got it because he doesn't have to worry about it when he returns for college. If I were his parent and his classes were online I would strongly consider buying him a ticket somewhere to explore or to volunteer for something overseas. Or intern a year or work a year at something.

you should warn him that its possible to get it more than once

[gasman]

you should warn him that its possible to get it more than once

Actually, I don’t think we know if that’s true or not as we don’t have good data.

[cmbicycles]

I teach elementary music. I'm not sure how it will look for me in the fall, or to be honest, if I will even have a job. Music is the first thing to get cut when budgets are tight. The last I heard for k-5 in my district was the goal of alternating two days on and two days off for students, with Fridays being virtual for everyone.

Virtual learning was difficult for me to do, especially as there is little budget for the arts to begin with and my personal resources were all geared towards in person, collaborative learning. I dont know what I will be doing in the fall,but without an effective vaccine or treatment, I dont know that I want to be back in the school environment...but I am planning out some options for whatever happens.

There are lots of issues of course with any course of action either in opening or virtual learning. Anything can be made to work, it it's a question of whether the resources and supporting structures will be available and in place. Our school district currently has no official plan in place for the fall, so teachers cant really plan their course of action, and support structures need time to be built.

One issue with in person learning for K-5 is that younger kids cant effectively social distance and wear masks, I just dont think it is a developmentally appropriate expectation. Yes they can be taught to do so, but I doubt they are social distancing in their communities and I have no way of knowing what their parents have taught them for social expectations in school. Having parents on board with school expectations was not an easy task before Covid, for the present situation I just don't know what to expect.

Regular budgets will likely be insufficient to properly clean, provide ppe, and maintain appropriate indoor air quality, along with regular things like basic classroom supplies and meals. My district is historically underfunded, ours is a title1 school, 95% of students qualify for free/reduced lunch and breakfast, a bunch get bags of food to take home on weekends. Our district is providing meals and food throughout the summer for students at different locations throughout the city, staffed by teachers and volunteers. Still, some distribution sites have closed for people testing positive.

I teach in a 105 year old building that already has moisture and air quality issues. I know there is little to be done to improve these issues outside of major renovation work, realistically involves gutting the building, or a new building. Neither of those will happen, so the schools will be disinfected and deep cleaned and that's it.

Let's face it, schools are built for efficiency, not maximizing social distance. I had a 20x30 room, no furniture, 20+ kids sat on a 10x12 rug on the floor. I couldn't get better flooring and we did a lot of different kinds of activities so that chairs were often a bigger hindrance than help. I dont think that music classes will be a priority, they never have been, but since group singing is out, especially in an already poor indoor air quality, that removes over 90% of what I do. Everything I do in classes is reinforced by or centered on chanting/singing together.

Using buses to get kids to and from school will be interesting for in person learning. We had buses do double routes sometimes already due to a shortage of buses and drivers. Now you will need every bus to do double runs at 1/2 capacity. While I guess it's possible, it's going to be costly as its not the efficiency the system was designed for. If you split days, how do you decide who comes and who doesnt? By neighborhood or geographical area, by individual class makeup, both, what about siblings, etc?

There are of course many teachers who would have to cut themselves off from family and friends for the duration of the school year, as well as those with pre-existing conditions that may make it too great a risk to be teaching in person without effective treatments or a vaccine.

So called adults are not making it easy to get ahead of this virus right now, they are tired of social distancing, believe that it's not that bad, or a whole host of other reasons. Some of them are parents, so how well will their kids maintain social distance requirements in school?

Students with IEPs/etc for certain learning accomodations, will likely not be able to get the same level of services. Schools could get in a lot of trouble for not meeting the legal requirements of these documents unless there is some sort of grace extended by state/fed level or parents. Some students with hearing or speech impairments will struggle with masks, and not everyone will have a clear mask so you can see their lips move for those that helps.

As a parent, we homeschool. Our kids were part of a co-op for some subjects (algebra/latin/french/science) and those all went virtual. We arent planning on spending the same money for virtual learning classes in the fall, actually planning on doing more at home. Obviously some subjects will do fine virtually, but others will not. I am proud of how well my kids did with the switch to virtual learning, but I know my wife can do as good or better job with most subjects taught at home. Too bad we cant deduct materials used for homeschool teaching like I can for public school teaching.

As a parent who is a teacher, I already am super aware about trying to not bring home germs from my school. We live in a small 3br 1ba house, there isnt a place I can quarantine myself short of a hotel or as tent. In a Covid environment where I doubt the ability of my school community to maintain best practices and environment, I honestly dont know how I feel about in person learning for schools in the fall. Obviously you cant open up the rest of the economy if kids are at home, but that's another burden placed on teachers as you dont know what is coming into your classroom with your students, where they and their family have been, what precautions they have taken/ignored/etc.

Best wishes to all the other teachers. I dont envy the school leaders making these decisions, nor the teachers who will have to make it work.

[Dino Suegiù]

you should warn him that its possible to get it more than once

Not to mention that people intending to travel from the US are not exactly "persona grata" in many countries these days.

[Dino Suegiù]

I teach elementary music. I'm not sure how it will look for me in the fall, or to be honest, if I will even have a job. Music is the first thing to get cut when budgets are tight.

...

Best wishes to all the other teachers. I dont envy the school leaders making these decisions, nor the teachers who will have to make it work.

Sincerely wishing you and yours the best.

[rustychisel]

"Australia to allow international students to return before all state borders open"

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jul/07/australia-to-allow-international-university-students-to-return-before-all-state-borders-open


Here's the latest for what its worth. We've been incredibly lucky down here, with prompt action and swift measures taken, even though the messages from our government have been mixed. When this all kicked off our Prime Minister said something like 'there's no place for international students here, they should go home' and there were reports of some surviving on charity and food handouts.

Mind you, having done virtually nothing to help the universities they're wanting the full fee paying students to come back.

[verticaldoug]

This.

It's a worldwide thing in higher education. We're good here (comparatively) but the international student market has been stopped in its tracks. I'm teaching about 50% this semester, all of it remote (is what we're told so far), and I consider myself lucky.

You saw the administration wants to send all international students who are not attending in-person classes home? Cruelty never ends...


From the FT

US shows foreign students the door International students at US universities will no longer be eligible to stay in the country if their courses move fully online, US immigration authorities said

Sorry for the paywall
https://www.ft.com/content/562bfeec-0955-4689-911b-b5137c4ba6b5

[pasadena]

This is a really good synopsis of the issues. We are dealing with this as well.

The schools and government seem to be pushing to get kids in school. I understand the social and economic reasons to get back to some kind of normalcy. However, here in CA, the adults messed that all up.

Things are worse now than when schools shut down. By a lot.
Attitudes of refusing to wear masks is going to affect how seriously kids follow guidelines. It also increases the risk of exposure.

If they require students to come to class, will they pay for the medical bills if the child and family contract covid? Will they have life insurance policies? Yeah no, then you're on your own.

Kids need social interactions but at the cost of what? Life and death, or the after effects of a respiratory virus that can leave lifelong damage?

Kids spread the cold and flu like candy at halloween. Do you think they can contain covid in a school setting? This is a heavy responsibility to lay on teachers, to be a minute by minute monitor as well as teach, and think of their own health.

Obviously, it's not so easy because families are in different situations and feel differently about acceptable risk.
This is one situation where I feel pretty strongly on where we stand, but do not begrudge other parents for making their own decisions.

However, the real sticking point is if the schools allow parents to make those decisions or if they will try to impose directives.



I teach elementary music. I'm not sure how it will look for me in the fall, or to be honest, if I will even have a job. Music is the first thing to get cut when budgets are tight. The last I heard for k-5 in my district was the goal of alternating two days on and two days off for students, with Fridays being virtual for everyone.

Virtual learning was difficult for me to do, especially as there is little budget for the arts to begin with and my personal resources were all geared towards in person, collaborative learning. I dont know what I will be doing in the fall,but without an effective vaccine or treatment, I dont know that I want to be back in the school environment...but I am planning out some options for whatever happens.

There are lots of issues of course with any course of action either in opening or virtual learning. Anything can be made to work, it it's a question of whether the resources and supporting structures will be available and in place. Our school district currently has no official plan in place for the fall, so teachers cant really plan their course of action, and support structures need time to be built.

One issue with in person learning for K-5 is that younger kids cant effectively social distance and wear masks, I just dont think it is a developmentally appropriate expectation. Yes they can be taught to do so, but I doubt they are social distancing in their communities and I have no way of knowing what their parents have taught them for social expectations in school. Having parents on board with school expectations was not an easy task before Covid, for the present situation I just don't know what to expect.

Regular budgets will likely be insufficient to properly clean, provide ppe, and maintain appropriate indoor air quality, along with regular things like basic classroom supplies and meals. My district is historically underfunded, ours is a title1 school, 95% of students qualify for free/reduced lunch and breakfast, a bunch get bags of food to take home on weekends. Our district is providing meals and food throughout the summer for students at different locations throughout the city, staffed by teachers and volunteers. Still, some distribution sites have closed for people testing positive.

I teach in a 105 year old building that already has moisture and air quality issues. I know there is little to be done to improve these issues outside of major renovation work, realistically involves gutting the building, or a new building. Neither of those will happen, so the schools will be disinfected and deep cleaned and that's it.

Let's face it, schools are built for efficiency, not maximizing social distance. I had a 20x30 room, no furniture, 20+ kids sat on a 10x12 rug on the floor. I couldn't get better flooring and we did a lot of different kinds of activities so that chairs were often a bigger hindrance than help. I dont think that music classes will be a priority, they never have been, but since group singing is out, especially in an already poor indoor air quality, that removes over 90% of what I do. Everything I do in classes is reinforced by or centered on chanting/singing together.

Using buses to get kids to and from school will be interesting for in person learning. We had buses do double routes sometimes already due to a shortage of buses and drivers. Now you will need every bus to do double runs at 1/2 capacity. While I guess it's possible, it's going to be costly as its not the efficiency the system was designed for. If you split days, how do you decide who comes and who doesnt? By neighborhood or geographical area, by individual class makeup, both, what about siblings, etc?

There are of course many teachers who would have to cut themselves off from family and friends for the duration of the school year, as well as those with pre-existing conditions that may make it too great a risk to be teaching in person without effective treatments or a vaccine.

So called adults are not making it easy to get ahead of this virus right now, they are tired of social distancing, believe that it's not that bad, or a whole host of other reasons. Some of them are parents, so how well will their kids maintain social distance requirements in school?

Students with IEPs/etc for certain learning accomodations, will likely not be able to get the same level of services. Schools could get in a lot of trouble for not meeting the legal requirements of these documents unless there is some sort of grace extended by state/fed level or parents. Some students with hearing or speech impairments will struggle with masks, and not everyone will have a clear mask so you can see their lips move for those that helps.

As a parent, we homeschool. Our kids were part of a co-op for some subjects (algebra/latin/french/science) and those all went virtual. We arent planning on spending the same money for virtual learning classes in the fall, actually planning on doing more at home. Obviously some subjects will do fine virtually, but others will not. I am proud of how well my kids did with the switch to virtual learning, but I know my wife can do as good or better job with most subjects taught at home. Too bad we cant deduct materials used for homeschool teaching like I can for public school teaching.

As a parent who is a teacher, I already am super aware about trying to not bring home germs from my school. We live in a small 3br 1ba house, there isnt a place I can quarantine myself short of a hotel or as tent. In a Covid environment where I doubt the ability of my school community to maintain best practices and environment, I honestly dont know how I feel about in person learning for schools in the fall. Obviously you cant open up the rest of the economy if kids are at home, but that's another burden placed on teachers as you dont know what is coming into your classroom with your students, where they and their family have been, what precautions they have taken/ignored/etc.

Best wishes to all the other teachers. I dont envy the school leaders making these decisions, nor the teachers who will have to make it work.

[Germany_chris]

My daughter is in German schools and their running split schedules going forward. My wife teaches and the local U and they're splitting classes to maintain social distancing in the class room. On post we're planning on a normal re-opening in the fall pending DoDEA guidance.

I really don't think there is a good way to put kids in classrooms this fall and I can't imagine trying to glove and mask anyone under 15/16 all day.

[Mr. Pink]

So, it's bad enough good college education costs 20-50 thousand a year, but, some are going to spend that on zoom classes? Greed and profiteering is destroying our country.

[oldpotatoe]

My daughter is in German schools and their running split schedules going forward. My wife teaches and the local U and they're splitting classes to maintain social distancing in the class room. On post we're planning on a normal re-opening in the fall pending DoDEA guidance.

I really don't think there is a good way to put kids in classrooms this fall and I can't imagine trying to glove and mask anyone under 15/16 all day.

Germany, like most of Europe, saw the 'spike' and aggressively dealt with it and continue to do so..so their new infection rate is now very low.

With MANDATED rules in place, a LOT of these places in Europe and Asia look 'almost' normal.

I saw a doctor in Florida on TV, 'we are dealing with 2 diseases in the US..Covid-19 and stupidity'...The pressure is YUGE in the US to 'look' like 'normal'..the numbers tell another story..look for another YUGE spike about 15 July in the US..Schools start around here in August..doesn't look good...

Kid sees grandma on the weekend..bad idea.

US-4% of the world population, 26+% of the world wide infections and deaths..scary stuff. I think part of the 'plan', if you can call it that, is herd immunity although looks like you can get this bug more than once. Science doesn't lie...

[verticaldoug]

Germany, like most of Europe, saw the 'spike' and aggressively dealt with it and continue to do so..so their new infection rate is now very low.

With MANDATED rules in place, a LOT of these places in Europe and Asia look 'almost' normal.

I saw a doctor in Florida on TV, 'we are dealing with 2 diseases in the US..Covid-19 and stupidity'...The pressure is YUGE in the US to 'look' like 'normal'..the numbers tell another story..look for another YUGE spike about 15 July in the US..Schools start around here in August..doesn't look good...

Kid sees grandma on the weekend..bad idea.

US-4% of the world population, 26+% of the world wide infections and deaths..scary stuff.

The issue for Europe is how aggressively they can contact trace new clusters. Spain closed some areas yesterday because of a cluster. I think Melbourne in Australia is having some sort of lock down again for 6 weeks, with the reopening of pubs in UK, expect a cluster there by end of month.

The US is doing terrible because we are probably the most materialistic and hedonistic of the developed countries.

The school issue will ring true for everyone whether in Europe. US or Asia. I'd think European Universities and UK in particular do even worse than the US on virus control.

[Hilltopperny]

Until we have a vaccine it seems that's the short of it.

RNA vaccines only have a 45% effective rate at best. I hear a lot about a vaccine being the end all be all and that just isn't realistic. This virus has a mortality rate of .26% according to the cdc weeks ago with an average age of death in the 80's which is well above the average age of death here in the United States. The percentage of .26% has been consistently dropping with every positive case. Our two day death tolls across the country are the lowest since this whole thing began as in roughly 250 per day.

I realize the news media and governing bodies in some places are still pushing this as the plague, but the scientific data is no longer supporting that and never really did. I think it takes a large amount of hubris to believe that an RNA vaccine is even a plausible solution given the fact that only 6% of viable vaccines make it to market with an average of 7 years of development.

I am more concerned with the mental health and well being of my teenage daughter who lost all the structure of school, extracurricular activities and sports. With said structure she was a straight A student, president of student council, in advanced placement classes, multiple award winning, top of her class and captain of two sports teams. She finished out the year failing one class and received no awards at the end of the school year.

My wife is an elementary art teacher who also does very well with structure. It was extremely difficult for her to work with our two year old toddler running around constantly interrupting her as well as trying to figure out an online curriculum for K-5. Add to that she is pregnant and went into a pretty deep depression when all of this started and there was no other human contact for two months and the only time she left the house was so we could go for car rides in the countryside.

There was a video of Kurt Schrader discussing the vaccine stats with Dr. Fauci from a sub committee hearing stating all of the vaccine facts. I was trying to find a link and the only one I can find is the entire meeting which is close to 6 hours long.

[peanutgallery]

Scarily enough, college football is going to have a big say in this whole mess that is spooling up this fall. Every dime anticipated is already spent

So, it's bad enough good college education costs 20-50 thousand a year, but, some are going to spend that on zoom classes? Greed and profiteering is destroying our country.

[CNY rider]

RNA vaccines only have a 45% effective rate at best. I hear a lot about a vaccine being the end all be all and that just isn't realistic. This virus has a mortality rate of .26% according to the cdc weeks ago with an average age of death in the 80's which is well above the average age of death here in the United States. The percentage of .26% has been consistently dropping with every positive case. Our two day death tolls across the country are the lowest since this whole thing began as in roughly 250 per day.

I realize the news media and governing bodies in some places are still pushing this as the plague, but the scientific data is no longer supporting that and never really did. I think it takes a large amount of hubris to believe that an RNA vaccine is even a plausible solution given the fact that only 6% of viable vaccines make it to market with an average of 7 years of development.

I am more concerned with the mental health and well being of my teenage daughter who lost all the structure of school, extracurricular activities and sports. With said structure she was a straight A student, president of student council, in advanced placement classes, multiple award winning, top of her class and captain of two sports teams. She finished out the year failing one class and received no awards at the end of the school year.

My wife is an elementary art teacher who also does very well with structure. It was extremely difficult for her to work with our two year old toddler running around constantly interrupting her as well as trying to figure out an online curriculum for K-5. Add to that she is pregnant and went into a pretty deep depression when all of this started and there was no other human contact for two months and the only time she left the house was so we could go for car rides in the countryside.

There was a video of Kurt Schrader discussing the vaccine stats with Dr. Fauci from a sub committee hearing stating all of the vaccine facts. I was trying to find a link and the only one I can find is the entire meeting which is close to 6 hours long.

Some risks are worth taking.
I want our kids back in school in the fall.
We can monitor and test, and if the disease trajectory is bad we can go back to virtual teaching if we must, but we owe it to our kids to try and have school this fall.
Not to even mention their parents who are facing financial ruin if they can't get back to a normal work schedule because their young children are home all the time.

[54ny77]

Some incredible hurdles and logistics in here.

Have a friend who's kid who was delayed for presenting (or is it called "defending"?) their PhD, which has caused major hiccup since it's a hardcore lab-based science discipline. I'm the scheme of things it's been just a several month delay, but there are bills/loans to pay, final classes to take, job to start, etc. etc.

This year will provide a lifetime of interesting education stories for the students , that's for sure.

Good luck to all parents!

[redir]

My little college town is about to be invaded by 36,000 kids from around the world so it should be pretty exciting. I'm glad my wife no longer teaches and is instead a research scientist who can do most of the work from home or out in the field.

As for the little ones, it's probably ok for them to go back to school. It's the teachers that have to be careful.

[Keith A]

I realize that is on the edge of discussing the whole pandemic issue, but let's keep this about parents and educators and not the government...otherwise you know what will happen.

[AngryScientist]

Just a note: there was a lot of interest in keeping this thread open as a lot of us are parents, educators, etc. and it's good to hear what others think and what's happening in other parts of the country - so keep the discussion on topic of schools and education, thanks.

[verticaldoug]

I think the virus is just increasing the peak-trough between levels of society.

Before the virus, the students in wealthier school districts did better than those in poorer districts for a variety of reasons.

Post-Virus, this gap will just be even larger. Wealthier school districts and families can compensate, and those less fortunate just get left behind. And maybe left behind at a complete standstill.

Unless, the Federal or State governments want to aid poorer school districts with more resources, I don't see how you get any other outcome.

If Congress wants to pass another AID package for the country, instead of targeting money to people with money (tax cuts, etc), they should target a spending package for schools to help the poor.

The only problem like PPP, money will end up going to Hotchkiss, Choate, Horace Mann instead of Troy, Buffalo and Yonkers.

[chrismoustache]

Maybe this is a good opportunity to move to the Forest School model?

https://www.forestschoolassociation.org/what-is-forest-school/

some areas don't have the necessary spaces to make this work, but it'd be interesting to see it incorporated somehow.

[rallizes]

https://www.wftv.com/news/local/department-education-issues-executive-order-stating-florida-schools-must-reopen-august/Y7WQTDYNDRGS3JW2LQ6BP3QFN4/

'Department of Education issues executive order stating Florida schools must reopen in August'

should be fine

florida...

[mhespenheide]

Some risks are worth taking.
.../snip/...
Not to even mention their parents who are facing financial ruin if they can't get back to a normal work schedule because their young children are home all the time.

Are we just going to come out and admit, straight up, that one of the purposes of school is that it functions as daycare?

[AngryScientist]

Are we just going to come out and admit, straight up, that one of the purposes of school is that it functions as daycare?

admit?

is there anyone that denies that this is true?

it's pretty black and white to me. when kids are physically at school, someone else is looking after them.

[XXtwindad]

I teach elementary music. I'm not sure how it will look for me in the fall, or to be honest, if I will even have a job. Music is the first thing to get cut when budgets are tight. The last I heard for k-5 in my district was the goal of alternating two days on and two days off for students, with Fridays being virtual for everyone.

Virtual learning was difficult for me to do, especially as there is little budget for the arts to begin with and my personal resources were all geared towards in person, collaborative learning. I dont know what I will be doing in the fall,but without an effective vaccine or treatment, I dont know that I want to be back in the school environment...but I am planning out some options for whatever happens.

There are lots of issues of course with any course of action either in opening or virtual learning. Anything can be made to work, it it's a question of whether the resources and supporting structures will be available and in place. Our school district currently has no official plan in place for the fall, so teachers cant really plan their course of action, and support structures need time to be built.

One issue with in person learning for K-5 is that younger kids cant effectively social distance and wear masks, I just dont think it is a developmentally appropriate expectation. Yes they can be taught to do so, but I doubt they are social distancing in their communities and I have no way of knowing what their parents have taught them for social expectations in school. Having parents on board with school expectations was not an easy task before Covid, for the present situation I just don't know what to expect.

Regular budgets will likely be insufficient to properly clean, provide ppe, and maintain appropriate indoor air quality, along with regular things like basic classroom supplies and meals. My district is historically underfunded, ours is a title1 school, 95% of students qualify for free/reduced lunch and breakfast, a bunch get bags of food to take home on weekends. Our district is providing meals and food throughout the summer for students at different locations throughout the city, staffed by teachers and volunteers. Still, some distribution sites have closed for people testing positive.

I teach in a 105 year old building that already has moisture and air quality issues. I know there is little to be done to improve these issues outside of major renovation work, realistically involves gutting the building, or a new building. Neither of those will happen, so the schools will be disinfected and deep cleaned and that's it.

Let's face it, schools are built for efficiency, not maximizing social distance. I had a 20x30 room, no furniture, 20+ kids sat on a 10x12 rug on the floor. I couldn't get better flooring and we did a lot of different kinds of activities so that chairs were often a bigger hindrance than help. I dont think that music classes will be a priority, they never have been, but since group singing is out, especially in an already poor indoor air quality, that removes over 90% of what I do. Everything I do in classes is reinforced by or centered on chanting/singing together.

Using buses to get kids to and from school will be interesting for in person learning. We had buses do double routes sometimes already due to a shortage of buses and drivers. Now you will need every bus to do double runs at 1/2 capacity. While I guess it's possible, it's going to be costly as its not the efficiency the system was designed for. If you split days, how do you decide who comes and who doesnt? By neighborhood or geographical area, by individual class makeup, both, what about siblings, etc?

There are of course many teachers who would have to cut themselves off from family and friends for the duration of the school year, as well as those with pre-existing conditions that may make it too great a risk to be teaching in person without effective treatments or a vaccine.

So called adults are not making it easy to get ahead of this virus right now, they are tired of social distancing, believe that it's not that bad, or a whole host of other reasons. Some of them are parents, so how well will their kids maintain social distance requirements in school?

Students with IEPs/etc for certain learning accomodations, will likely not be able to get the same level of services. Schools could get in a lot of trouble for not meeting the legal requirements of these documents unless there is some sort of grace extended by state/fed level or parents. Some students with hearing or speech impairments will struggle with masks, and not everyone will have a clear mask so you can see their lips move for those that helps.

As a parent, we homeschool. Our kids were part of a co-op for some subjects (algebra/latin/french/science) and those all went virtual. We arent planning on spending the same money for virtual learning classes in the fall, actually planning on doing more at home. Obviously some subjects will do fine virtually, but others will not. I am proud of how well my kids did with the switch to virtual learning, but I know my wife can do as good or better job with most subjects taught at home. Too bad we cant deduct materials used for homeschool teaching like I can for public school teaching.

As a parent who is a teacher, I already am super aware about trying to not bring home germs from my school. We live in a small 3br 1ba house, there isnt a place I can quarantine myself short of a hotel or as tent. In a Covid environment where I doubt the ability of my school community to maintain best practices and environment, I honestly dont know how I feel about in person learning for schools in the fall. Obviously you cant open up the rest of the economy if kids are at home, but that's another burden placed on teachers as you dont know what is coming into your classroom with your students, where they and their family have been, what precautions they have taken/ignored/etc.

Best wishes to all the other teachers. I dont envy the school leaders making these decisions, nor the teachers who will have to make it work.

This is a very thoughtful and insightful response. And pretty damn depressing, to boot.

[Likes2ridefar]

In Scottsdale, AZ today they are presenting , I think, two or three options for the district parents to choose.

They are pivoting a principal where my wife teaches to an online position to support an online only program for parents that choose that route.

The other(s) is a hybrid in person and online program to reduce #s each day. I’ve also read they may consider full time but I don’t see how they could do both.

Masks will be mandatory for all on campus and they are installing lanes in the halls for students to ideally track to the edges and distance as much as possible.

Whatever they choose it’ll probably be a mess given many in the state still seem to not believe in the virus or wearing a mask.

I have a daughter going into first grade and prefer the hybrid.

[CNY rider]

Are we just going to come out and admit, straight up, that one of the purposes of school is that it functions as daycare?

It is not a primary purpose of school, but it is one of the functions.
Modern American society is structured around children attending school, and thus not being physically present in the home certain periods of each week.
I believe that our children's well being and development would be best served by returning to full time in-person school in September.
And I say that as someone who is not reliant on the daycare function. We can get along fine without it.

[XXtwindad]

Are we just going to come out and admit, straight up, that one of the purposes of school is that it functions as daycare?

I totally get where you’re coming from. There’s the old cliche of people with kids telling non-parents “you don’t know what you’re missing.” A little silent on that front these days. Also, my best friend who is a long-time educator asked me what the primary purpose of school was.

“Socialization,” I replied.

“That’s like saying your primary purpose as a personal trainer is providing people with a floor,” she responded.

I get that, too. Conversely, we are in the midst of a soul-searching national dialogue around race and class issues. Nothing fosters empathy like exposure to people of different races, abilities, orientations etc. Schools, particularly the public ones, serve an vital role in that.

That can’t be replicated via “Zoom.”

[pdxharth]

Verticaldoug is on to one of the biggest issues.

I teach HS English at a large school outside Portland. High level of low income students. For my Freshmen classes, participation dropped severely by the beginning of May. Some teachers were at far less than 50%.

Now our budget is being cut. My department cut a first year teacher, possibly the best young teacher I have ever seen. That is a brutal loss for our students. How can we be cutting good young teachers when, if anything, we will need more teachers in order to serve all students while attempting to social distance?

The way we fund schools is a disgrace, and this situation will separate the haves from the have-nots even more, as Verticaldoug notes.

Plus, teachers are not trained for online teaching. And that costs money. Ideally, 2-4 weeks at the beginning of the year should be dedicated to planning, education, and other preparations to improve online teaching. But that costs even more money, so it won’t happen. It will be a slightly improved piecemeal of what we experienced already, and that is not good enough, not even close.

From what I can tell, there is no discussion in Congress or in the Admin to help public schools, who need a funding increase, not budget cuts. Why not?




I think the virus is just increasing the peak-trough between levels of society.

Before the virus, the students in wealthier school districts did better than those in poorer districts for a variety of reasons.

Post-Virus, this gap will just be even larger. Wealthier school districts and families can compensate, and those less fortunate just get left behind. And maybe left behind at a complete standstill.

Unless, the Federal or State governments want to aid poorer school districts with more resources, I don't see how you get any other outcome.

If Congress wants to pass another AID package for the country, instead of targeting money to people with money (tax cuts, etc), they should target a spending package for schools to help the poor.

The only problem like PPP, money will end up going to Hotchkiss, Choate, Horace Mann instead of Troy, Buffalo and Yonkers.

[Germany_chris]

Germany, like most of Europe, saw the 'spike' and aggressively dealt with it and continue to do so..so their new infection rate is now very low.

With MANDATED rules in place, a LOT of these places in Europe and Asia look 'almost' normal.

I saw a doctor in Florida on TV, 'we are dealing with 2 diseases in the US..Covid-19 and stupidity'...The pressure is YUGE in the US to 'look' like 'normal'..the numbers tell another story..look for another YUGE spike about 15 July in the US..Schools start around here in August..doesn't look good...

Kid sees grandma on the weekend..bad idea.

US-4% of the world population, 26+% of the world wide infections and deaths..scary stuff. I think part of the 'plan', if you can call it that, is herd immunity although looks like you can get this bug more than once. Science doesn't lie...

We (Hessen and Rhineland Pfalz I'm unfortunately hanging out with the USAREUR cool people v. EUCOM cool people) had spike last week that sent the RO over one again. While it's not as bad here as it is in the states the need to open is going to cause a spike, here because the Germans import labor from eastern Europe and at home 'cause muh rites.

What really boggles my mind is that no one seems to want to work together to get a vaccine produced like there is some atta' boy to take home to mommy for there first person/county to cross the finish line.

[benb]

I take guitar lessons one on one and was playing weekly with a group as well.

Haven't met with the group in months and we haven't really figured out how to make that work at all online. My one on one lessons went remote and they've been fine.

And outdoor session could work... no reason that can't work for classes.

I think remote can work fine at the upper high school & college levels for music... as long as you don't need too much of that group/ensemble time. Things could be shifted around.

By the time anyone gets to college the physical in the room aspects are starting to phase out I think... theory & such works fine remotely.

Obviously theater and stuff in HS & college is going to be harder, chorus is a disaster.

[pasadena]

What really boggles my mind is that no one seems to want to work together to get a vaccine produced like there is some atta' boy to take home to mommy for there first person/county to cross the finish line.

It's because the ownership of a cure to a worldwide virus is worth more than Bezos and Amazon.
Countries are lining up billions to pay out. Investors and politicians are lining up with open pockets.

Germany is in a very different situation to the US, so the school strategies will not crossover.
Would Germany have opened schools a couple months ago, when infections were spiking and you were in lockdown? That is closer to the scenario we face.

[benb]

In terms of opening school.

There's no way the same thing can be done across the country, it's going to be different in every state based on context.

I am not of the opinion that the states that are getting hit hard right now are getting hit hard because they are in a "2nd wave" or that they are being super irresponsible and their behavior is to blame. I am more of the opinion the areas of the country getting hit hard right now are just behind the curve in terms of the "wave" hitting them.

We are doing so much better here in MA... IMO only because we already got hammered. I think time is going to show that the wave breaks after a certain # of people get infected and that the % of the population that has to be infected to start creating herd immunity is a lot lower than initially expected. I am seeing estimates that 90% of the cases aren't getting detected... we have 100k cases in MA. If that's only 10% of cases that means > 1 million people in MA have been infected, and we now have 1 out of 6 people that might be immune at this point. That is going to lower our R-value at this point.

So NY, MA, NJ, etc.. these places that got absolutely hammered and are now doing well, I bet we're going to be ready for school to reopen. But TX, FL, AZ, CA, that are just hitting their horror now, they're not going to be ready.

It feels like it took us 2-3 months to come town from our peak, TX, FL, AZ, CA, etc.. are going to be coming down off the peak in October/November time frame so maybe kids in school is going to seem realistic for the spring semester.

My son is a week and a half into a town program now where he's back in a group with other kids... no outbreak so far with the following restrictions from normal:

- Parents don't get anywhere near any of the kids at drop off/pickup
- Health screening forms have to be dropped off with my kid every day
- Kids are isolated to a group of 10 kids
- Kids only come in contact with 2 adults
- Indoor spaces are pretty restricted
- All the toys/materials are not shared or are disinfected between the different groups of kids
- Everyone is masked all the time indoors, etc..
- Hand sanitizer up the wazoo

The plan here for school is likely going to be something similar. Might be some mix of remote/in-person, teachers will not float between rooms, kids are restricted to their homeroom, no cafeteria for lunch, etc.. masks/PPE in use.

My kid is 7, he is totally unaffected by having to wear a mask all day and constantly sanitize his hands.. the kids adjust to this and tolerate it way faster than adults seem to.

[Hilltopperny]

Some risks are worth taking.
I want our kids back in school in the fall.
We can monitor and test, and if the disease trajectory is bad we can go back to virtual teaching if we must, but we owe it to our kids to try and have school this fall.
Not to even mention their parents who are facing financial ruin if they can't get back to a normal work schedule because their young children are home all the time.


Couldn’t agree more. Life is full of risks and the risk involved at this stage is very low given that there are known treatments and that children remain relatively unaffected by this virus. A strong immune system and hand washing should correlate to a relatively safe environment for our students and teachers. Kids need social interaction as do adults.

This is creating more problems for average people than the virus ever could IMHO. One of my friends fathers worked as a truck driver at Keymark in Fonda NY where there was a cluster and the plant shut down. He was an alcoholic and once the factory closed started binge drinking since his job was shut down. He ended up with a DWI two nights ago and yesterday he blew his head off. These are the repercussions of taking people’s ability to make a living and routine away from them. Completely sad and I feel terrible for my friend/neighbor. The policies enacted are truly having a very negative effect on everyday people and that is tragic.

It is strange to me how the media has gone from death tolls to reporting new case spikes without giving relevant information like they are testing over 550,000 people a day. Clearly there will be spikes when only a month ago testing was based on having symptoms and now it is mostly based on employment specifications. The vast majority of positives are not sick. This virus seems to be spreading in turn bringing herd immunity which in my opinion is a good thing. The fact that it is in no way the killer virus that was proposed months ago is a good thing and the sooner people realize that the better off we will be.

The other contributing factor is that we have multiple treatments that actually work and we know they do. Only a few months ago there were plenty of doctors saying this, but being blacked out by media and social media platforms in the most strange use of censorship that I have ever seen in my adult life.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jtbadge]

What's more important: preserving one's "way of life," or their actual life?

[jtbadge]

Every country that has paid their citizens to stay home instead of "opening the economy" has controlled this pandemic instead of letting it run rampant while some of us pretend it doesn't even exist. We've crossed over into sadistic territory, here, forcing especially the poor and vulnerable to be exposed to a deadly virus while the rich are lining their pockets. Now we're going to force our children and teachers to be in close quarters all day long? This is truly shameless.

[AngryScientist]

Again, it seems that Covid discussion brings on strong feelings from many people. Unfortunately, once we get into these topics people seem to get offended, so let's just steer clear of these type of topics here. The forum blood pressure is much calmer without Covid talk. You can find an outlet for those discussions in dozens of other places.

https://previews.123rf.com/images/bravissimos/bravissimos1909/bravissimos190900354/130696586-octoberfest-fun-cheers-beer-mugs-in-hands-man-and-woman-on-outdoor.jpg

[William]

I'll just add one point to this...

One member stated in a reported post that they wanted to refute something that was posted but thought they might get a time out for it. Not at all, we have no issue with someone posting a counter point of view as long as you stay on topic and can do it without attacking, belittling, or being rude to others...period.







W.