OT: Berkeley vs. UC Berkeley

[XXtwindad]

Read this the other day: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/berkeley-group-can-sue-uc-over-increased-enrollment-at-berkeley-campus/ar-BB160nrh

The thrust of it is that a neighborhood Berkeley group, joined by the City of Berkeley, is suing UC on the basis of violating a 1970 law (signed into effect by Ronald Reagan) that stipulates any state and local agency must "report on any harm they may cause to the environment and propose measures to avoid or reduce the harm." At issue is the increased enrollment over the years, which the litigants claim have done serious damage to the community as a whole.

It's tempting to ascribe the situation to NIMBYism (particularly since it's Berkeley) But the litigants have a point, stressing that there "have been increased use of off-campus housing by students, displacing tenants and adding to homelessness; more noise, trash and traffic; and greater burdens on the city’s police, fire and ambulance services."

There is a flip-side, however. College towns - particularly the smaller ones - are financially dependent on the schools. And with enrollment affected by the Pandemic, these towns have really been hit.

Here's an article featuring the plight of Davis, CA, as well as other college towns across the country. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/28/us/coronavirus-college-towns.html

I'm interested to see how this turns out.

[benb]

This pandemic has almost been the flipside disaster of the small town that can be ruined by a factory moving out.

It's been 25 years but I had gone to tour UC Berkley as a high school student.

The school seemed great but as a college town my father (who was extremely well traveled) took me on a walk around the city and that was all it took for me to not even want to put an application in.

It was such a zoo at that point it blew my 17 year old mind. Just on that little walk we had numerous people trying to sell us drugs, offering to let us spit on them for a dollar, people climbing telephone poles and signs & building facades... it was surreal.

[Spaghetti Legs]

I went over there a couple of times in the early 90’s and can’t say the neighborhood was particularly pleasant then. I can only imagine what it’s like now.

The dynamic between a large university and it’s host town is always interesting and you’ll frequently see a love/hate aspect to it. I live walking distance from Univ of Virginia - close enough to hear the marching band practice but far enough to not hear the parties or smell the beer/vomit. IMO the Univesity here is a good neighbor, but they could probably get away with being less neighborly as they are the Big Cheese in a pretty small town. I imagine Berkeley isn’t quite as dependent on Cal.

[vespasianus]

we had numerous people trying to sell us drugs, offering to let us spit on them for a dollar, people climbing telephone poles and signs & building facades... it was surreal.


Dude, that is one of the major reasons why people go to Berkley...

[FlashUNC]

I imagine the Venn diagram of these folks and those complaining about the plan to turn People's Park into student housing is just one big circle.

You can't freeze the town in amber forever. Students and the university are every bit a part of the fabric of the community as everyone else.

[ultraman6970]

Whats the reason of the increase in students? the school grew?... easy to pass classes??? free stuff?

[XXtwindad]

Whats the reason of the increase in students? the school grew?... easy to pass classes??? free stuff?

I don't know the answer to that. But I think it's important to note, that UC is potentially being sued, not just Berkeley. So, as a spokesperson for the UC system noted, any decision would affect the entirety of the UC system, and potentially state schools as well.

[tomato coupe]

Whats the reason of the increase in students? the school grew?... easy to pass classes??? free stuff?
population increase => more students => increase enrollment cap to accommodate

[woodworker]

I attended Cal from 1978-82. My dad grew up in Berkeley and went to Berkeley High and Cal. That tension existed when I went there, and I always was surprised by the way that the city responded to the university's existence, almost as a thorn in its side, although the university dates back to the mid 1800's. My dad did not report it as an issue in the 40's and 50's, but I'm guessing that it developed later. As the university got larger, it seemed like the city resented the amount of development and density not only on campus but in the surrounding areas.

However, isolating the "harm" from the economic benefits and then suing on it seems a bit odd. The school has greatly contributed to the wealth of the area, and much of that derives from the increasing enrollment, faculty, facilities.

One person commented that the area surrounding the university was offputting. I know some people who react that way, but I lived off campus the entire time and was never bothered by it. In fact, I found it a great place to live.

[prototoast]

Whats the reason of the increase in students? the school grew?... easy to pass classes??? free stuff?

Don't know about UC Berkeley specifically, but around the last recession, demand for education increased due to the poor job market, while state funding for public colleges fell, so many schools facing shrinking budgets tried to take in more students (particularly international students who pay full tuition).

[72gmc]

It's an interesting angle, to demand an environmental/social impact statement and mitigation plan from a large college. Here in Seattle, UW has expanded in a huge way since I attended. Maybe it's time for the re-evaluation of higher ed to include cost/benefit to the community as well as cost of tuition?

Re: Berkeley, if it was gritty, it still is for sure. I can't help but notice how short the walk is between the outdoor pool with Olympic rings and the homeless camps.

I'm sure the university's growth has had an effect, but I'm also reading a bit of an old strategy--find the big business and blame it for the homeless--into this.

[bikingshearer]

Keep in mind this is a Court of Appeal decision. The California Supreme Court may (or may not) have the final say on this. As with the US Supreme Court, the California Supremes have close to absolute discretion whether to consider this matter. So they can take this on, or they can just let the appellate court decision stand.

Note that the appellate court decision says that the suit can go forward. The case at the trial court level is in its infancy and there is no way to say at this point who will prevail at trial, assuming there even is a trial (lots of ways for this to end short of trial).

Also, the dispute over putting up student housing at People's Park (or elsewhere south of campus), is literally as old as People's Park itself; that issue, and trying to clear folks who had taken over the property, was the spark that started the People's Park riots in the first place. 1969, I think it was. People's Park over the intervening 50 years has been, in turn, pretty squalid and pretty nice, evolving back and forth several times. What it has not been is built upon.

[Hindmost]

My mother and then I grew up in Berkeley. It's always been a college town. Nothing's the same. Like many places, the scale of everything has changed: more people, traffic, etc; the magnitude of crime, homelessness greatly increased. All of Berkeley used to be a place where you would be happy to live and raise a family...while still true in some areas, others are a no-fly zone.

[prototoast]

All of Berkeley used to be a place where you would be happy to live and raise a family...while still true in some areas, others are a no-fly zone.

And you still can't buy a house for less than $500/sqft.

[bigbill]

My cousin's kid played football there during grad school (had a year of eligibility left) and said it was the best experience of his life. This was a kid who had grown up in conservative north Texas and attended Texas Tech for his undergrad. Changed his outlook on everything.

I'm sure many communities are watching this case. I was in Flagstaff this past weekend and the expansion of NAU and addition of student housing is pricing the locals out.

[FlashUNC]

My mother and then I grew up in Berkeley. It's always been a college town. Nothing's the same. Like many places, the scale of everything has changed: more people, traffic, etc; the magnitude of crime, homelessness greatly increased. All of Berkeley used to be a place where you would be happy to live and raise a family...while still true in some areas, others are a no-fly zone.

I'd be curious which areas you'd define as a "no-fly zone."

[AngryScientist]

Just on that little walk we had numerous people trying to sell us drugs, offering to let us spit on them for a dollar, people climbing telephone poles and signs & building facades... it was surreal.

Flash is in Berkeley and he'll let you spit on his autographed Sagan photo for 50 cents!

:banana:

[Hindmost]

I'd be curious which areas you'd define as a "no-fly zone."

After I wrote that I realized my knowledge is not that current and I'm going on general impressions of revisiting areas. Increased traffic seems very un-kid-friendly. South of campus got a little rough around the edges. When I was last in the Marina area I was a little taken aback, the hotel clerk gave me some advice on security outside the hotel.

[nobuseri]

Went to school there in the early to mid 90s. Moving there (to the dorms the first year) from Pasadena was definitely a culture shock. For my first few months I avoided walking down Telegraph. Definitely very different than my first 17-18 years growing up. Eventually, I absorbed it all (not the drugs and shrooms and alcohol). I made it out OK. :)

South side was always the wild side. Often talked to the "naked guy" as we walked across campus, etc. North side might have been the same, but aesthetically, it sure didn't look like it. A lot more quiet, and the real estate certainly looked like what it was worth.

[54ny77]

Is fat slice pizza still there?

[woodworker]

Funny, but from the descriptions it doesn't sound that different from when I attended from '78-'82. South of the campus could be a bit sketchy, and Northside was pretty nice. I lived a block off campus in some apartments above LaVal's. My visits there, roughly once or twice each decade, confirm that feeling. The density on campus has gotten greater, but the communities surrounding the campus seemed similar, and Northside is still beautiful (nice ride up Euclid, out through Tilden and into Orinda btw).

...now, how that's affected real estate prices and the cost of living are something else entirely. I can't speak to that, but it's happened throughout the Bay Area, so I'm not sure that you can extract the university's impact from the overall trend.

I came from conservative Orange County, so, yes, it was a bit of a culture shock, that's a good thing, right?

[donevwil]

Funny, but from the descriptions it doesn't sound that different from when I attended from '78-'82. South of the campus could be a bit sketchy, and Northside was pretty nice. I lived a block off campus in some apartments above LaVal's. My visits there, roughly once or twice each decade, confirm that feeling. The density on campus has gotten greater, but the communities surrounding the campus seemed similar, and Northside is still beautiful (nice ride up Euclid, out through Tilden and into Orinda btw).

...now, how that's affected real estate prices and the cost of living are something else entirely. I can't speak to that, but it's happened throughout the Bay Area, so I'm not sure that you can extract the university's impact from the overall trend.

I came from conservative Orange County, so, yes, it was a bit of a culture shock, that's a good thing, right?

I moved from Berkeley to Orange County in '88, a culture shock as well.

I could easily live in Berkeley and almost moved back after being offered a job at LBL. Most equate the city as being near the campus, there is so much more. Although I don't miss being assaulted taking a shortcut through People's Park, or the constant Berkeley PD vs Campus PD finger waving I do miss the Berkeley I knew in the '80s and '90s. Little is left off campus to remind me of the way it was.

[benb]

Wait a minute are you guys telling me I had it all wrong and the people selling drugs were the students?

LOL.. or is the town worried the students are too conservative? :banana:

UC Berkeley is one of the tougher UCs to get into right? I was not conservative politically as a HS student but I went to a Catholic school, played sports, never drank or did drugs, worked as a lifeguard, had taken flying lessons with my summer earnings instead of buying a car, etc.. so in that sense I was not ready for that environment at all. (Heh.. another 2 years later my reaction would have been way different..)

My interest in the school was due to it being fairly legendary in computer science circles. The students in the labs were of course way more like me. That whole reaction with walking around off campus was really bad. If I hadn't seen that, I'd have applied. I didn't get into Stanford, if I hadn't had that reaction to the area around the campus I'd have applied, and if I'd have gotten in I very likely would have gone, cause I really did want to go out to CA.

I'm the oldest kid in the family, if my parents had known what they knew by kid 2-3-4 they would have had me apply to more schools on the west coast since they knew I was interested.

[nobuseri]

I didn't go to a Catholic HS, but I did play sports, etc in SoCal. I did a tour of the campus and area after being accepted; it was wild, but I was up for the change. Mainly, I wanted to get away from home and see other places. NorCal allowed me to do that, not be too far away from home, and avoid out-of-state tuition fees.

Never got caught up in the alcohol and drugs floating around the in the area when I was there. I still haven't. I had a fun time there and learned a lot outside of campus. ;)

I entered Cal in the EECS (Elec Eng and Comp Sci) dept; it was (is?) one of the best around. Ended up settling for EE and Japanese as majors. I would have applied to Stanford, but it was WAY out of my (parents') range for college tuition. That area (Palo Alto) outside of EPA at the time seemed to be more in line with what I was used to in SoCal.


Wait a minute are you guys telling me I had it all wrong and the people selling drugs were the students?

LOL.. or is the town worried the students are too conservative? :banana:

UC Berkeley is one of the tougher UCs to get into right? I was not conservative politically as a HS student but I went to a Catholic school, played sports, never drank or did drugs, worked as a lifeguard, had taken flying lessons with my summer earnings instead of buying a car, etc.. so in that sense I was not ready for that environment at all. (Heh.. another 2 years later my reaction would have been way different..)

My interest in the school was due to it being fairly legendary in computer science circles. The students in the labs were of course way more like me. That whole reaction with walking around off campus was really bad. If I hadn't seen that, I'd have applied. I didn't get into Stanford, if I hadn't had that reaction to the area around the campus I'd have applied, and if I'd have gotten in I very likely would have gone, cause I really did want to go out to CA.

I'm the oldest kid in the family, if my parents had known what they knew by kid 2-3-4 they would have had me apply to more schools on the west coast since they knew I was interested.

[4151zero]

is fat slice pizza still there?

yes!

[Hindmost]

Whats the reason of the increase in students? the school grew?... easy to pass classes??? free stuff?

Same story for almost all US universities.

[professerr]

Well, having lived in Berkeley years ago, I think what’s going on there is that the well-off, uber-educated population living in the nicer areas like Elmwood (where the president of the association suing the university lives ) and Claremont want to keep the student zoo from sprawling into their fancy streets (and also sucking up the city resources their property assessments pay for). Sure there’s the student slum/Telegraph Ave area where you can buy a tie-dye outside of Amoeba Records, but in the better areas a meh, 2500 square foot house can go for $1000+/square foot — it’s not some free love hippy utopia some progressives are trying to preserve, but rather good old fashioned nimby-ism borne of the usual gentrification and unequal distribution of wealth. https://www.zillow.com/homes/45-The-Plaza-Dr-Berkeley,-CA,-94705_rb/2080460412_zpid/

[charliedid]

Berkeley is so not weird.

[XXtwindad]

Well, having lived in Berkeley years ago, I think what’s going on there is that the well-off, uber-educated population living in the nicer areas like Elmwood (where the president of the association suing the university lives ) and Claremont want to keep the student zoo from sprawling into their fancy streets (and also sucking up the city resources their property assessments pay for). Sure there’s the student slum/Telegraph Ave area where you can buy a tie-dye outside of Amoeba Records, but in the better areas a meh, 2500 square foot house can go for $1000+/square foot — it’s not some free love hippy utopia some progressives are trying to preserve, but rather good old fashioned nimby-ism borne of the usual gentrification and unequal distribution of wealth. https://www.zillow.com/homes/45-The-Plaza-Dr-Berkeley,-CA,-94705_rb/2080460412_zpid/

Well put. There’s something particularly noxious about Berkeley NIMBYism.

[FlashUNC]

Well, having lived in Berkeley years ago, I think what’s going on there is that the well-off, uber-educated population living in the nicer areas like Elmwood (where the president of the association suing the university lives ) and Claremont want to keep the student zoo from sprawling into their fancy streets (and also sucking up the city resources their property assessments pay for). Sure there’s the student slum/Telegraph Ave area where you can buy a tie-dye outside of Amoeba Records, but in the better areas a meh, 2500 square foot house can go for $1000+/square foot — it’s not some free love hippy utopia some progressives are trying to preserve, but rather good old fashioned nimby-ism borne of the usual gentrification and unequal distribution of wealth. https://www.zillow.com/homes/45-The-Plaza-Dr-Berkeley,-CA,-94705_rb/2080460412_zpid/

Pretty much. Like the homeless advocate I know who objected to the city turning the former online wine distributor that was a whole money laundering scheme into a seasonal homeless shelter, because it was too close to her house and she was worried about property values.

NIMBY-ism comes in all stripes.

[XXtwindad]

Pretty much. Like the homeless advocate I know who objected to the city turning the former online wine distributor that was a whole money laundering scheme into a seasonal homeless shelter, because it was too close to her house and she was worried about property values.

NIMBY-ism comes in all stripes.

Just when you thought you had some of the funniest examples of upper crusty liberal hypocrisy, someone comes along and “one-ups” you. Unbelievable. Wait, no, it’s Berkeley.

[Elefantino]

Berkeley went to hell when Performance closed.