View Full Version : Fore/aft cleat position.
Xyzzy
01-26-2007, 04:28 PM
I've been messing around with cleat position ever since I started riding. I like to have the cleat really far forward, ahead of the ball of my feet, because it feels better. I don't know how to describe the feeling exactly, but I feel like I can react to speed changes faster and I feel like I am "dancing" on the pedals. However, every once in a while I'll tweak my Achilles tendon a bit and I'll have to move the cleat back nearer to the ball of my foot. I tend to run my saddle a bit low, too. I have no idea what symptom of poor fitting those two variables indicate. I've read that the calf muscle really doesn't contribute much to overall power development but I like the feel of having the calf involved, plus it gives me nice cut up calves.
Lately I've been reading some of the articles by Steve Hogg on cyclingnews.com where he advocates running the cleats a lot farther back than most people are used to. I've tried it, but it feels sluggish and weird, even after quite a few hours to try to get used to it. In one article he even mentions that there is a woman pro somewhere that has her cleat in the middle of the arch of her foot!
So, what do I do when I need a definitive answer? I turn to the man, Bernard Hinault. I love his book, Road Racing Technique & Training. Anyways, on page 82 there is a table that lists the suggested distance from the front of your shoe to the middle of your axle. The two cleats I have handy here (Look KéO and Speedplay X) are both marked where the middle of the axle bisects the cleat. So, with a ruler and a level and a bit of time, it is easy to calculate the distance. (See attached picture.)
My question are whether or not the numbers in the book actually reflect good fitting practices and how close everyone out there is to this table. I assume that most people set their cleats to where it is most comfortable for them, so it would be interesting to see if the most comfortable spot is close.
Personally, I wear a size 44 and my Speedplays allow a setback of 8-9cm. I am at 9cm. The table recommends 9.9cm for me. I like the feel of 8cm but my Achilles tendon sometimes complains.
Note that when you measure like I did in the picture, you have to account for the distance from the end of the ruler to where it begins measuring. I really need to invest in a better ruler!
39 7.9cm
40 8.3cm
41 8.7cm
42 9.1cm
43 9.5cm
44 9.9cm
45 10.3cm
Note that the poll allows multiple answers.
:beer:
Xyzzy
03-02-2007, 08:23 PM
Bump for more data?
:beer:
Grant McLean
03-02-2007, 08:48 PM
Mine are exactly on the chart. size 40 and 83mm
g
manet
03-02-2007, 09:01 PM
i wear 46 sidi. my cleats are as far back (towards heel) as the slots allow for.
slowgoing
03-02-2007, 09:11 PM
my cleats are as far back (towards heel) as the slots allow for.
+1. Dictated by my achilles.
AgilisMerlin
03-02-2007, 09:16 PM
all my shoes, far back as poss.
i have got lower back problems not foot/knee problems :no:
amerliN
bcm119
03-03-2007, 12:41 AM
size 47 and 10.2, so about a cm forward of the table.
soulspinner
03-03-2007, 08:20 AM
43 shoes, 9cm within+- .5
Fat Robert
03-03-2007, 10:26 AM
put your cleats where hinault and the coni manual say to put them
its where the weight wants to be
it works
justinf
03-03-2007, 10:30 AM
Interesting. I ride 43.5 at 8.5 cm. . .might bump them back and see what that does. I have been riding ATACs/MTB shoes on my road fixie which is a significantly deeper cleat position and have been curious about this myself.
FierteTi52
03-03-2007, 11:53 AM
My 43cm Carnacs with Speedplays are at 88mm to center. This is 3mm further back than the circular mark on the cleat adapter. The number is foreward of the number listed on the chart.
Jeff
Erik.Lazdins
03-03-2007, 12:15 PM
I don't measure them but test ride them and adjust by feel. They always wind up back - not quite all the way back, but close.
swoop
03-03-2007, 02:13 PM
i keep thinking that your desire to move the cleat forward might have something to do with a muscle imbalance in your legs and a desire to use your quads cuz your hammies are under developed or visa versa.
i'd have to see you pedaling. but when things start to get this far from center... it suggests that something along the line is being compensated for.
but i dunno.. i'm just a shrink on a nice bike.
its all about relationships but things get wonky when one's core is weak or there are muscular systems overused to compensate for weakness. the thing i most often see in odd fits is that the fit it making up for something that needs to be adressed in the legs.
that's when saddles get pushed too far forward or back, cleats get put too far forward... stuff like that.
i'm just sayin....
i know my cleat, setback, pedaling was weird until i did about two years of work in the gym and lots of long focused work on slow squats, and single leg incline press.
and after that.. everything came under the ball of my foot, close to kops, and my pedaling became clean enough to eat off of.
Before I left today I was curious so I went to measure the cleats like the picture here. Good thing I did, the screws holding the left cleat to the shoe had just about backed all the way out. I can't believe I hadn't noticed that riding. Maybe I did, who knows.
Anyway, once they're jammed all the way back, given some fresh Loctite and screwed all the way back in they're just about exactly where that table lists. Funny that they have to be all the way at the end of the slot to do that. For me, anything further forward bothers my feet.
I have several pairs of size 44 shoes and they vary in length by up to an inch. They all fit well but some have more toe space than others.
Xyzzy
03-06-2007, 06:06 PM
Re: Limited rearward cleat position for Speedplay cleats. (Example, on mine, I am 1cm in front of the recommended value, yet I am at the rearmost cleat position.)
From cyclingnews.com:
If I am on the right track, this will mean a substantial move rearwards on the shoe and you will not have enough adjustment. If so, order Speedplay part no. 13330 which is an alternative set of baseplates with 13-14mm more rearward adjustment potential than the standard baseplates. If this all results in a substantial movement rearwards of the cleats, drop your seat to allow for the increased extension of the leg that will almost certainly be necessary with the new cleat position.Has anyone ever seen or used that part?
Xyzzy
03-06-2007, 06:11 PM
i keep thinking that your desire to move the cleat forward might have something to do with a muscle imbalance in your legs and a desire to use your quads cuz your hammies are under developed or visa versa.I agree. I have had, on long climbs, total "lockups" in my hamstrings. The quads can go forever and never tire. I also experience pretty severe hamstring pain after an intense roller session, which I have been told is a result of using a higher cadence and spending more time "pulling up/unloading" than when I ride outside. Very interesting insight. Thanks!
Xyzzy
03-06-2007, 06:29 PM
put your cleats where hinault and the coni manual say to put them
its where the weight wants to be
it worksIt took me a while to find, but:
http://www.sandcreeksports.com/coni.htm
Edit: Too bad it isn't the whole manual.
"If I am on the right track, this will mean a substantial move rearwards on the shoe and you will not have enough adjustment. If so, order Speedplay part no. 13330 which is an alternative set of baseplates with 13-14mm more rearward adjustment potential than the standard baseplates. If this all results in a substantial movement rearwards of the cleats, drop your seat to allow for the increased extension of the leg that will almost certainly be necessary with the new cleat position. "
Strange, but I had my seat back most of the way on the rails, I was going to move it forward a corresponding amount to the way I pushed the cleats back and raise it just a little bit.
Chief
03-06-2007, 09:03 PM
I wear a 45-1/2 and I measure the distance to be 11 cm with the cleat nearly as far back as it will go. If I extrapolate the data in the table to my size, the distance should be 10.7 cm. Thus, it looks close enough. Sometimes what feels good is good enough.
Elefantino
03-07-2007, 05:54 AM
Has anyone ever seen or used that part?
From Speedplay:
I want to make you guys aware of a product that Speedplay offers that will address the problem in last week's posting. We offer a part called the Aluminum Extender Plate, part #13330. The Aluminum Extender Plate replaces our standard base plate. This increases the limit of rearward placement by 14mm. The Aluminum Extender Plate retails for $25.
Andy Jasper
Speedplay, Inc.
At last. A solution for my right leg, which has no working calf muscle!
stevep
03-07-2007, 06:31 AM
i never saw this chart before.
mine came out pretty much on the money.
i have always set the cleats to the most back position on any shoes that i have ever had and never had knee/ hip/ etc issues.
Too Tall
03-07-2007, 07:15 AM
Dead ctr. is where I am most of the time. I move them forward some for track racing and crits..actually I've got a shoe setup for that. It is more aggressive??
What you showed wil vary quite alot depending on what shoe is used.
Xyzzy
03-10-2007, 04:59 PM
http://www2.trainingbible.com/joesblog/blog.html
Scroll down to January 30th.
Weird, eh?
Xyzzy
03-10-2007, 05:02 PM
Has anyone ever seen or used that part?Well, I dropped the $25 for the new Speedplay adapter plate. We'll see how that goes when it arrives.
Xyzzy
03-22-2007, 07:59 PM
My extended Speedplay plates arrived today. I'll attempt to mount them tomorrow and get a new measurement.
They look very weird and really are made out of aluminum. This is going to be very interesting.
Xyzzy
03-23-2007, 06:13 AM
I was at 9.0cm at post #1. BH's recommended value for me is 9.9cm. I am now at 10.4cm. I figure half a centimeter farther back is pretty close. I could try to get 9.9cm exactly but it is much easier, and more repeatable, to just slam the whole plate to the rear.
The new plates are slightly heavier. I don't have a scale that can measure small stuff. Unlike the stock plates which use nice flat head screws, the new plates use the same screws the cleat uses. They work but they aren't as nice.
Anyways, I just figured I'd post what they look like.
In the second and third picture I've marked the original position in red and the new position in green. The new plates allow you to run either position.
With my LBS discount, no shipping, and tax, these cost me $24 I think.
wasfast
03-23-2007, 07:22 AM
http://www2.trainingbible.com/joesblog/blog.html
Scroll down to January 30th.
Weird, eh?
Wierd? Perhaps not. Different? Certainly. At least he's making changes closed loop with a power meter and not doing fashion/historical/legacy changes. It would be interesting to try but I'm using Look cleats which definitely won't do that. My son does have the Shimano cleats and pedals though....perhaps it's work a couple holes to find out.
The one downside I do see is toe overlap just got HUGE!
wasfast
03-23-2007, 07:22 AM
http://www2.trainingbible.com/joesblog/blog.html
Scroll down to January 30th.
Weird, eh?
Wierd? Perhaps not. Different? Certainly. At least he's making changes closed loop with a power meter and not doing fashion/historical/legacy changes. It would be interesting to try but I'm using Look cleats which definitely won't do that. My son does have the Shimano cleats and pedals though....perhaps it's woth a couple holes to find out.
The one downside I do see is toe overlap just got HUGE!
wasfast
03-23-2007, 07:22 AM
http://www2.trainingbible.com/joesblog/blog.html
Scroll down to January 30th.
Weird, eh?
Wierd? Perhaps not. Different? Certainly. At least he's making changes closed loop with a power meter and not doing fashion/historical/legacy changes. It would be interesting to try but I'm using Look cleats which definitely won't do that. My son does have the Shimano cleats and pedals though....perhaps it's worth a couple holes to find out.
The one downside I do see is toe overlap just got HUGE!
cadence231
03-23-2007, 06:08 PM
From Speedplay:
I want to make you guys aware of a product that Speedplay offers that will address the problem in last week's posting. We offer a part called the Aluminum Extender Plate, part #13330. The Aluminum Extender Plate replaces our standard base plate. This increases the limit of rearward placement by 14mm. The Aluminum Extender Plate retails for $25.
Andy Jasper
Speedplay, Inc.
At last. A solution for my right leg, which has no working calf muscle!
Have you tried the adapter plate?
Xyzzy
03-24-2007, 08:23 PM
Susanne Ljungskog.
OldDog
03-25-2007, 08:53 AM
I moved my cleats all the way back on 2003 'cause of an annoying mortons neuroma problem. Happy feet.
Xyzzy
03-25-2007, 07:55 PM
Something that was brought to my attention today that I never considered is in reference to my preference for a very far forward mounted cleat.
I love to climb, usually standing. I have been told that a forward mounted cleat is perfect for this mode. If you climb seated, a rearward position is more desirable. If you hammer on the flats or time trial, a rearward position is also desirable.
I assume I will have to retrain my muscles to climb with these so far back. On my old Keos I was a lot farther forward than the original Speedplay plates. I'm not sure how much farther but I suspect 2-3cm farther.
Again, I'm sure I have some sort of weird physical problem, like the Elephant Man. Or something.
PS - Bump for more poll data.
Xyzzy
03-31-2007, 03:19 PM
I hate to admit I am wrong, even though it happens with alarming regularity, but:
I get a lot more power with these new Speedplay plates. A lot.
Maybe before it felt faster, with the cleats all the way forward, but with them back, like the table recommends, there is no question which is more powerful.
YMMV, of course.
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