Liability when selling used bikes?

[Jimbo]

Hi Guys:
I'm a regular buyer and seller over on the marketplace forum and on local CL. Usually I sell parts but not complete bikes. A local rider has asked me to sell him my TT bike. So I'm in the process of building it up for him and it suddenly dawned on me: If something goes wrong with the bike and he has a horrific crash am I liable? I would like, but don't really need, the money he wants to pay me.
Any lawyers out there willing to comment?
Thanks,
Jim

[rcnute]

Never say never, but I wouldn't be and have never worried about it personally. Couple of sellers have asked me to sign waivers which I was happy to do.

Ryan (personal injury lawyer)

[Jimbo]

Thank you Ryan! Do you know of a downloadable waiver template?
Cheers,
Jim

Never say never, but I wouldn't be and have never worried about it personally. Couple of sellers have asked me to sign waivers which I was happy to do.

Ryan (personal injury lawyer)

[RonW87]

Hi Guys:
I'm a regular buyer and seller over on the marketplace forum and on local CL. Usually I sell parts but not complete bikes. A local rider has asked me to sell him my TT bike. So I'm in the process of building it up for him and it suddenly dawned on me: If something goes wrong with the bike and he has a horrific crash am I liable? I would like, but don't really need, the money he wants to pay me.
Any lawyers out there willing to comment?
Thanks,
Jim

You are right to be worried. Generally, the Sale of Goods Act, incorporated into Article 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code and adopted in most states, provides for implied warranties of fitness for purpose, merchantabie quality, etc.

Also, product liability under tort law may apply.

Given damage awards in the US, this is a big concern.

It is worth obtaining an exclusion of all implied warranties, an acknowledgment that goods are purchased "as is" and that buyer assumes all risks.

Then again, I practice law in Canada, so do not rely on the above.

[cmg]

give him the parts and let him assembly it himself.

[Coffee Rider]

My general recollection is that strict liability only applies to merchants and not casual sellers, though that wouldn't do much good if the buyer were to claim you were negligent in doing the build. I haven't thought about this in a long time since it's been a while since I've sold a complete bike. One thing to note is that pretty much anyone can sue anyone over anything and then you have to deal with the court system. Thus, while it is called liability coverage, in many ways you have insurance against getting sued.

[AngryScientist]

i think what i would do is make a listing on a public space, like craigslist, facebook, here, whatever for the bike and state explicitly:

"bike as sold as is. i am a hobbyist bicycle rider and while i have done my best to represent the bike as accurately as possible i assume no responsibility for the bicycle post purchase"

then, you could always point to that if something were to come up later.

[pjbaz]

I always use terms like: "as-is, where-is" "no warranty expressed or implied" "your mileage may vary" and "remember what Joe Diffie said and always expect a train"

And during the sale if things felt weird - like I got the vibe the dude was going to bust balls, ask for a refund or sue me (honestly, have never encountered this) - I'd tell them to bounce.

[jwin]

How is it different than a car? Are you responsible for a user car if it catastrophically fails after you sell it?

I actually don't know...

[2000m2]

Mildly related... I was once selling a complete bike and a potential buyer wanted me to sign some document stating I retained 0.1% ownership in the bike so the original manufacturers warranty could somehow be honored. I was a junior in college and thought it a bit odd, so I decided not to sell to him. He then threatened to report me to my schools honor committee. He was a lawyer.

I wouldn't worry too much about your situation, though I'm no legal scholar.

[Dino Suegiù]

Is US society really that litigious? :eek:

If one is that concerned just have the buyer sign a receipt waiver stating:
"Pre-owned [bicycle model + parts + serial number/ID] sold to Mr. A on XX/YY/ZZ. Sold in "as-is" condition following buyer inspection and approval. The seller bears no future responsibility or liability. Any future evaluation of condition, preferably performed by a professional bicycle mechanic, while recommended, is solely the responsibility of the buyer."

Or, whatever legalese terminology works to that effect.

[KJMUNC]

Is US society really that litigious? :eek:
.

Yes, yes it is sadly.

Ask me how I know (currently embroiled in a lawsuit over a home we sold and the buyer found things after the fact and has tied us up for 2yrs)

It is absolutely infuriating, depressing, and will make you lose your faith in human beings.

but hey, I can still go out and ride my bike, so I try to look on the bright side. :)

[commonguy001]

Assuming someone did sue and there was liability, would something like a personal liability umbrella policy kick in at that point?

Interesting thread!

[Coffee Rider]

Mildly related... I was once selling a complete bike and a potential buyer wanted me to sign some document stating I retained 0.1% ownership in the bike so the original manufacturers warranty could somehow be honored. I was a junior in college and thought it a bit odd, so I decided not to sell to him. He then threatened to report me to my schools honor committee. He was a lawyer.

I wouldn't worry too much about your situation, though I'm no legal scholar.

It reminds of the joke about how 99% of lawyers make the 1% look bad.

[thirdgenbird]

I’ve also wondered if selling a bike without a saddle and pedals as “bicycle parts” would help separate you from liability.

The only time I’ve sold a bicycle without fully parting it, I did this. Primarily because it allowed myself and the buyer to get to a price we could both agree on but I did think about other potential implications in the process.

[Coffee Rider]

Assuming someone did sue and there was liability, would something like a personal liability umbrella policy kick in at that point?

Interesting thread!

If insurance is involved, the claim will likely be settled since that will cost the insurer less than continued litigation. You are then likely out the deductible and may have higher costs in the future. It is especially a concern if it means a claim on a homeowner's policy in terms of rates and future insurability.

When trying to sell things, I won't sell if I get a bad vibe since it's not worth the risk of future headaches like those I've experienced on some eBay sales.

[d_douglas]

I bought a Colnago c40 locally a couple of years ago to get the Record group off of it. After buying and breaking it down, I found a repair done on the frame and cracks on the carbon bar.

I contacted the seller and he essentially told me to screw off as I had the chance to inspect everything presale (or, unwrap the bar and remove shifters - ) so I was stuck with the bike.

I Consulted with a good lbs here about the frame and they confirmed it was a minor repair that was well done - they all said they’d ride it with no worries. I sold the frameset here and disclosed to the buyer from the start, so I felt comfortable with that. I tossed the bar in the garbage as I wouldn’t feel comfortable giving it away - the worry of it breaking would weigh on my conscience.

That said, having a clause in your PL or Craigslist af for any and all items seems crazy - if the buyer is so concerned about failure and injury, they a) might not be in the right sport or b) they should just buy new so they could directly hunt down the manufacturer in the event of failure.

[William]

i think what i would do is make a listing on a public space, like craigslist, facebook, here, whatever for the bike and state explicitly:

"bike as sold as is. i am a hobbyist bicycle rider and while i have done my best to represent the bike as accurately as possible i assume no responsibility for the bicycle post purchase"....



I would add just one tiny little bit more...

"...Any agreement, transaction, business dealing, undertaking, buying, compact, contract, convention, covenant, deal, deed, doings, enterprise, event, execution, goings-on, happening, matter, negotiation, occurrence, pact, performance, play, proceeding, purchase, purchasing, or sale, we may enter into is done so at your own risk."



:);)

W.