Ottrott

[mso]

I've been riding my new to me Ottrott for a month and well it just seems to be lacking some "kick". I sold my Seven Axiom which had awesome "acceleration" but was a little stiff for me. I really couldn't have imagined the Ottott would be so different. It's comfortable and tracks really well on descents but it just seems to lack "snap" when I push down on the pedals. I love to climb and I'm disappointed. I now find myself preferring my Calfee Luna. Regarding weight, all the bikes are within a half a lbs of each other, so I don't think that's a major issue. MMMM....have I been turned into a carbon lover? Would a Legend Ti be "quicker"? Saw a pretty one my size on ebay but if the rides similiar it wouldn't be an option.

[Serotta PETE]

It really depends on the tubing selection that was used on the model you have. Their are many configurations that can turn the bike into a "mellow" or a "screamer" experience.

SPOKES had his built with the stiffest tubes and it is a rocket.

Another friend of mine just got one and he feels the same.

Serotta, especially at that level, is very tunable to the ride you are looking for.

[swoop]

i have to say this out loud.... seven can make a very stiff bike. i'ts what they do best (atmo). nthat being said.. they can make a noodle too.
the thing with custom is that everything from tube selection to geometry can make a bike feel fast or slow. so don't hate the model .. hate the choices someone made.

[Smiley]

I have not yet ridden a Meivici, but dude the Ottrott really has SNAP in the BB and it does jump when you apply force to the pedals, Better then any straight Ti bike. Maybe a carbon bike is better to your liking ?

[Clarence1997]

My Ottrott ST is in the process of being made right now. Should I have been more specific in my desire of tubing stiffness?

Does it make that much of a difference in "raw speed" or just "comfort". My fitter asked me how I use the bike (triathlon distances, etc) but we didn't disucss tubing preferences, etc. My fitter is one of the highest regarded as well....so I do have confidence in his making the right decisions, etc...

[Redturbo]

Hey that Calfee Luna is hard to beat. I've had alot of bikes come and go but that darn luna just sticks around. Sorry to hear about your Ottrott.

[Ginger]

Did the previous owner tell you how the ride was spec'd?

Perhaps there's a touch longer chainstays on there for comfort.

[Grant McLean]

SPOKES had his built with the stiffest tubes and it is a rocket.
...
Serotta, especially at that level, is very tunable to the ride you are looking for.


Excuse me, but let's add the word "feels like" in there.
It may "feel" like a rocket, but it's no faster than a more compliant tubeset.
Likely, it's slower in the long run, if it's not comfortable.

A bike industry designer I know did some field testing with pro riders
on both world cup mtb's, and on the road. He took extensive notes
of rider feedback during controlled laps. He was the only one with the
stop watch, and the riders had to tell him what felt faster.

I can assure you there was no correlation. What 'feels' fast isn't.
If you don't believe me, that's up to you. Enjoy!

g

[1centaur]

Excuse me, but let's add the word "feels like" in there.
It may "feel" like a rocket, but it's no faster than a more compliant tubeset.
Likely, it's slower in the long run, if it's not comfortable.

A bike industry designer I know did some field testing with pro riders
on both world cup mtb's, and on the road. He took extensive notes
of rider feedback during controlled laps. He was the only one with the
stop watch, and the riders had to tell him what felt faster.

I can assure you there was no correlation. What 'feels' fast isn't.
If you don't believe me, that's up to you. Enjoy!

g

+1. That was the conclusion from my sequential Calfee/Crumpton/Parlee test. Parlee felt faster because it felt stiffer, but Crumpton was faster by the stop watch. Stiffer frames reward the psychological aspect of pushing pedals harder in the immediate future, but (my theory) the speed at which your muscles fire and recover may be better matched to a different level of stiffness which may in itself vary based on terrain. Further, as with the issue with higher vs. lower psi tires, smoothly rolling over road imperfections may be more efficient than bouncing over them with insufficient give.

[RPS]

=

[Ray]

I can’t agree with you more regarding the uncertainty of what feels fast and what is actually fast. Unfortunately, the average rider has practically no way of telling which bikes are actually faster so we should expect that in the absence of analytical facts buyers will be drawn to what feels faster.

IMO instantaneous or transitory feedback we get from a bike can fake our senses into thinking that something is happening than in reality it is not – like much faster acceleration. A lighter bike can also feel much faster than is possible; again IMO because it fakes our senses. This also happens outside of bicycling so it shouldn’t be a surprise.
I agree comletely that the qualitative sensations may not have anything to do with the quantitative reality. But if we're not racing or otherwise timing our rides, perhaps the qualitative sensations have their own intrinsic value - they may even be FAR MORE IMPORTANT than the quantitative reality. Even if a particular bike made you slower in reality, if it made you FEEL faster and that was important to you, perhaps that would be the better bike for the situation. It's all about what floats your boat.

-Ray

[David Kirk]

I'm going to sound crazy to some of you but if I had to guess what the deal is I'd say that the Ottrott is a good bit stiffer than the Seven and may be too stiff for you.

I bike that is too stiff will feel sluggish and a bike that is too soft will feel noodly and slow. Somewhere between the two is snappy and lively and quick.

This is very subjective I know but here goes anyway. If the bike makes you feel weak and like to can't get power to the pedal then it could be too stiff. If you feel like a strong man due to things moving around underneath you then it could be too soft.

Try it.

Dave

[Big Dan]

I agree with Dave on this one. For me the Merckx MXL was too stiff and it felt sluggish.
The thing was just difficult to get up to speed. Call me crazy, but for everyday rides I prefer something with a little more flex.

:D

[Grant McLean]

But if we're not racing or otherwise timing our rides, perhaps the qualitative sensations have their own intrinsic value - they may even be FAR MORE IMPORTANT than the quantitative reality. Even if a particular bike made you slower in reality, if it made you FEEL faster and that was important to you, perhaps that would be the better bike for the situation. It's all about what floats your boat.

-Ray

Absolutely! Take from it whatever floats your boat.

Both my DeRosa King and the Sachs Geesawa "feel" so awesome,
I really could care less what's really going on. They're both just
such a pleasure to ride. The 'feedback' sensations are terrific.

I've got other bikes that are just "ya, like-whatever" to ride too.
I'm not sure it's quantifiable, or if i really care. When you find
a great bike, it's always a keeper.

g

[obtuse]

a flexy bike is not slower than a stiff bike with the same geometry and balance. a flexy bike may be sketchy and weird feeling when pushed into corners or ridden hard and in this way might not be the best choice for someone does that type of thing.

i've had bikes that had less bottom bracket rigidity than some other bikes and it didn't matter a bit and i'm a lug who uses a low cadence and pushes bigger gears. if you know how to ride a bike it's very rare that you'll be pedalling in such a way that the chain'll rub the fder...maybe the first half pedal stroke in a sprint or an out of the saddle attack, maybe during muscle tension or strength endurance intervals while training; but neither of these instances make a bike of difference.

where stiffness matters in front to back along the top-tube and between the wheels.

nonetheless for training or just going out for a ride, the vast majority of bicycles are what they are and are more than adequate for almost every purpose.

obtuse

[Serotta PETE]

SEND SPOKES A NOTE AND ASK HIM......He has "customized" all of his...

PETE

My Ottrott ST is in the process of being made right now. Should I have been more specific in my desire of tubing stiffness?

Does it make that much of a difference in "raw speed" or just "comfort". My fitter asked me how I use the bike (triathlon distances, etc) but we didn't disucss tubing preferences, etc. My fitter is one of the highest regarded as well....so I do have confidence in his making the right decisions, etc...

[Serotta PETE]

Grant,,,very well said and I shoud have said feels like a rocket for I agree with everything that you said. PETE

Excuse me, but let's add the word "feels like" in there.
It may "feel" like a rocket, but it's no faster than a more compliant tubeset.
Likely, it's slower in the long run, if it's not comfortable.

A bike industry designer I know did some field testing with pro riders
on both world cup mtb's, and on the road. He took extensive notes
of rider feedback during controlled laps. He was the only one with the
stop watch, and the riders had to tell him what felt faster.

I can assure you there was no correlation. What 'feels' fast isn't.
If you don't believe me, that's up to you. Enjoy!

g

[trophyoftexas]

....like in SS, Tx. or something sort of like that! I've got a very good friend that just MAY be looking AGAIN!




I've been riding my new to me Ottrott for a month and well it just seems to be lacking some "kick". I sold my Seven Axiom which had awesome "acceleration" but was a little stiff for me. I really couldn't have imagined the Ottott would be so different. It's comfortable and tracks really well on descents but it just seems to lack "snap" when I push down on the pedals. I love to climb and I'm disappointed. I now find myself preferring my Calfee Luna. Regarding weight, all the bikes are within a half a lbs of each other, so I don't think that's a major issue. MMMM....have I been turned into a carbon lover? Would a Legend Ti be "quicker"? Saw a pretty one my size on ebay but if the rides similiar it wouldn't be an option.

[Ahneida Ride]

My Ottrott ST is in the process of being made right now.
My fitter is one of the highest regarded as well....so I do have confidence in his making the right decisions, etc ....

I've heard that line before. Ask tons of questions .....
If you want snap, make sure you ask for it and inquire as to tubing
Serotta recommends.

Ask tons of questions. If your fitter seems a bit edgy, find another fitter.

[RPS]

=

[mso]

Stock 52

[palincss]

I agree comletely that the qualitative sensations may not have anything to do with the quantitative reality. But if we're not racing or otherwise timing our rides, perhaps the qualitative sensations have their own intrinsic value - they may even be FAR MORE IMPORTANT than the quantitative reality. Even if a particular bike made you slower in reality, if it made you FEEL faster and that was important to you, perhaps that would be the better bike for the situation. It's all about what floats your boat.

-Ray

And yet, Ray, you said not long ago here:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=23937&highlight=efficiency


What I THINK it comes down to is that I like a bike that feels efficient. That efficiency can be used for speed but it doesn't have to be used for speed. It basically makes just about any kind of riding easier, makes it feel more effortless. I can use that efficiency to ride faster, but I'm more likely to use it to ride longer or to use it to make a given ride feel like less work. I can use it to blast up a given climb (within the limits of my blast-ability) or I can use it to feel like I'm floating up that same climb at a somewhat lower speed. But in almost all cases, it makes riding seem more fun, like I'm getting away with something, like I'm getting the abolute most bang for my energry expending buck.

"Country bikes", on the other hand, tend to make me feel like I'm working harder for a given distance or elevation gain - I feel more like a beast of burden. The more I have to think about how hard I'm working on a given stretch of road or a given hill or a given ride, the less I can think about and enjoy the views, the fresh air, the sounds, the feel of gliding over the road, etc. A more efficient feeling bikes allows me to enjoy the ride on so many more levels it seems because I'm not thinking about the riding part of it. So I tend to prefer bikes that are closer to racing bikes than anything else even though I'm the farthest thing from a racer. Some people dismiss riders like me as poseurs or someone who's a victim of race-driven marketing. But I've been around the block often enough on enough different bikes and fallen victim to enough different types of marketing (including the "Country Bikes" marketing) to think it's more than that.


It seems as though here you are saying that simply "feeling fast" is more important than being fast, and feeling fast even though you are not is more important than being efficient and not necessarily realizing it. Maybe at this point it would be a useful thing to try to get a handle on exactly what it is that makes you "feel fast."

[gt6267a]

i think this is a fantastic thread, the subjectivity of stiffness and what feels good. wonderful.

i remember reading about, can't find the article again for the life of me, a test where a bike was hung horizontally. The head tube and rear drop outs were fixed. then, they hung a weight off the BB and measured the deflection. they did this for a number of frames. if i remember properly, the goal of the article was to show which bikes were stiffest. with a stiff bike, less energy gets absorbed by the bike so it's faster. i remember thinking at the time that the faster bit is probably hogwash. go grant for addressing that. would love to read more about it.

this does bring up a curiosity. i think it would be very interesting to ride 5 identical bikes but for their increasing stiffness. do it blind and see which one feels best. i really wonder how surprising the results of this test might be. i.e. how many of us prefer softer bikes but don't know it.

[RPS]

=

[Grant McLean]

Grant,,,very well said and I shoud have said feels like a rocket for I agree with everything that you said. PETE

I didn't mean to suggest anything negative by quoting your post. I wasn't 'picking' on what you said, and i'm glad we're all on the same page.

:) :)

g

[Grant McLean]

Maybe at this point it would be a useful thing to try to get a handle on exactly what it is that makes you "feel fast."

if i can take a swing at that one...

I believe what 'feels' fast is the feedback from the road and the more of a sense
of "immediacy" you get to your pedal input, the more your brain thinks you
are overcoming inertia more dramatically. Call it snap if you will.
My experience is that if the frame is just stiff enough, and still has that
crisp feeling, but still has enough "spring" torsionally to give just a touch of
pop - these bikes have the speed feeling in spades.

Sound can have an effect too. My carbon DeRosa king, with it's big, hollow,
thin tubes resonate the road sound. With mavic carbon cosmics on there,
it sounds like a whole pack of riders passing you. Each pedal rev, especially
out of the saddle, goes "WHOOSH, WHOOSH, WHHHHOOOOOSSSH!!!". It sounds
fantastic.

My Sachs is very much more mellow, but has such a solid and smooth quality
that it feels more like it's floating over the surface of the road. The balance
of this bike makes you feel like you're sitting "in" the bike, and if you're
motoring along on the flats, you feel like nothing can stop you. I always
feel "in the zone" on that bike. Only 5 seconds after rolling out the driveway,
it just disapears and lets you do your thing. (that is, if I can stop looking down
at it to see how beautiful it is!)

Different strokes. I'm so lucky to have had the opportunity to ride a bunch
of great bikes. Coming to the point where I know what I like when I feel it
has been a dream come true. To tell the truth, whenever I ride a favorite
bike, I rarely think about it during the ride. Usually about 5 minutes before
home, when i'm coasting along, finishing a water bottle, no hands on the bars,
it pops into my head what an awesome thing a great riding bike is.

g

[palincss]

...a test where a bike was hung horizontally. The head tube and rear drop outs were fixed. then, they hung a weight off the BB and measured the deflection. they did this for a number of frames. if i remember properly, the goal of the article was to show which bikes were stiffest. with a stiff bike, less energy gets absorbed by the bike so it's faster.


Except that the frame acts like a spring, and returns the energy, rather than "absorbing it".

[catulle]

if i can take a swing at that one...

I believe what 'feels' fast is the feedback from the road and the more of a sense
of "immediacy" you get to your pedal input, the more your brain thinks you
are overcoming inertia more dramatically. Call it snap if you will.
My experience is that if the frame is just stiff enough, and still has that
crisp feeling, but still has enough "spring" torsionally to give just a touch of
pop - these bikes have the speed feeling in spades.

Sound can have an effect too. My carbon DeRosa king, with it's big, hollow,
thin tubes resonate the road sound. With mavic carbon cosmics on there,
it sounds like a whole pack of riders passing you. Each pedal rev, especially
out of the saddle, goes "WHOOSH, WHOOSH, WHHHHOOOOOSSSH!!!". It sounds
fantastic.

My Sachs is very much more mellow, but has such a solid and smooth quality
that it feels more like it's floating over the surface of the road. The balance
of this bike makes you feel like you're sitting "in" the bike, and if you're
motoring along on the flats, you feel like nothing can stop you. I always
feel "in the zone" on that bike. Only 5 seconds after rolling out the driveway,
it just disapears and lets you do your thing. (that is, if I can stop looking down
at it to see how beautiful it is!)

Different strokes. I'm so lucky to have had the opportunity to ride a bunch
of great bikes. Coming to the point where I know what I like when I feel it
has been a dream come true. To tell the truth, whenever I ride a favorite
bike, I rarely think about it during the ride. Usually about 5 minutes before
home, when i'm coasting along, finishing a water bottle, no hands on the bars,
it pops into my head what an awesome thing a great riding bike is.

g

When I learned to shoot well a shotgun I was somehow disappointed. Previously, I'd give every shot a great deal of thought, and whenever I hit the target I thought that my thinking was correct and had helped me, and I felt good.

And then I was taught that the more you think about the shot, the more you are bound to miss. The English system is called "instinctive". Get your mind out of the equation and you'll do fine. Eventually I did, I started hitting every target, and I thought: "Where is the fun?".

Old Freud had it clear: Without neurosis there'd be no civilization. Zen is a gas, Zen is groovy...

[Kane]

I'd check the air in your tires, change your tire brand, or ask the question, did you change your wheels on the new bike? Frankly, these things are more likely to impart a difference in feel in a bike than frame material with similar geometry.
Cheers,

Kane