On Topic: Juneteenth.

[jwin]

For those of us in the USA, today is extremely important in the context of our history. I've spent much of the day reading about slavery, racism, and its impact on black people in the United States. In addition, I've donated to several organizations and matched some of those contributions with my employer. I would encourage everyone to use today and the current activism surrounding the treatments of blacks in our society, to spend some time thinking about it.

Finally, I wanted to share my favorite black bike rider / influencer: Leo Rodgers. He's only got one leg! https://www.instagram.com/slimone1000/. I saw him at Grinduro in 2019 and it was awesome.

https://media.theradavist.com/uploads/2019/09/Grinduro2019-117.jpg?w=2000&quality=75

[joosttx]

he's a stud. thank you for sharing.

[gasman]

He is a stud, can’t believe someone can ride like that.
But nope, not going to go into the political fray because that’s what will happen.

Personally, I support the changes we are hopefully seeing in the country.

[AngryScientist]

Eric's point is heard.

I'm re-opening, but urging civil discussion. political jabs and arguing is not going to help the discussion.

back on topic - yea, that guy is the man, and that crust, superbly built!

[Clean39T]

https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a32346213/leo-rodgers-amputee-cyclist/

Bicycling Magazine's cover story this month is on Leo Rodgers.

[ergott]

Eric's point is heard.



I'm re-opening, but urging civil discussion. political jabs and arguing is not going to help the discussion.



back on topic - yea, that guy is the man, and that crust, superbly built!It's okay to talk about racism. It's part of all our history regardless of politics. The sooner we get that fact out of the way the sooner we can move towards the process of healing and peace. It's not political it's societal.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[saab2000]

It's okay to talk about racism. It's part of all our history regardless of politics. The sooner we get that fact out of the way the sooner we can move towards the process of healing and peace. It's not political it's societal.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

Correct. We must all approach this with an open mind and be prepared to listen, not just hear.

That’s the end of what I’ll say that’s “controversial”.

The smile on his face riding a bike is why we’re all here, isn’t it?

[Coffee Rider]

Also, going for a ride provides a great time to think. I've been putting more of an effort to read uncomfortable opinion pieces to try and understand various points of view. I think that reassessing views is an important part of personal growth. I'm also now wondering what ideas that I might think are really far out there right now are ideas I may be agreeing with in a few years.

[Dino Suegiù]

For those of us in the USA, today is extremely important in the context of our history. I've spent much of the day reading about slavery, racism, and its impact on black people in the United States. In addition, I've donated to several organizations and matched some of those contributions with my employer. I would encourage everyone to use today and the current activism surrounding the treatments of blacks in our society, to spend some time thinking about it.

Eric's point is heard.

I'm re-opening, but urging civil discussion. political jabs and arguing is not going to help the discussion.

back on topic - yea, that guy is the man, and that crust, superbly built!
OK, but then why can we not discuss George Floyd et al on this forum? Why is that topic "off limits" and this thread not? Where is the consistency? I have no idea where the forum line is drawn, nor in what sand, any longer. It is very confusing, and feels very inconsistent.

And if the "back on topic" topic is somehow parsed/deemed to be "the man, and that [c]rust", then what the hell happened to the entire first paragraph of the op's post? :confused:

Leo Rodgers / Dexter Benjamin OK, as cool "influencers" on Juneteenth, but George Floyd / Ahmoud Arbery/ et al not OK, on any day?
Huh.
I lodge my disagreement to the dichotomy, then, just as ergott did, in the hope that truly honest and broader discussion of the most salient topics of the day be open to discussion here, in the interests of actual free speech, open dialogue, and outward education.

[robt57]

5... 4... 3.... 2....

[tctyres]

When do you use Loctite 2047? https://www.amazon.com/Threadlocker-2047-50mL-Bottle-Black/dp/B004OCMNP0
Which nuts?

It's the black thread locker. :(

Edit:
Also, before I go into time out, I want to add the Justin Williams clip on NorCal cycling. Great guy. Great racer. He and his brother are doing a lot in cycling right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju_i0fyXy10
Also, also Ayesha McGowan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TDhBWywpf0 She's a big deal in the women's cycling scene.
Also, also, also, Velonews did a piece on the Major Taylor cycling team and how the individual riders have been discriminated against in the NYC area. It's worth listening to: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zb3VuZGNsb3VkLmNvbS91c2Vycy9zb3 VuZGNsb3VkOnVzZXJzOjI1MDcwMjA1My9zb3VuZHMucnNz/episode/dGFnOnNvdW5kY2xvdWQsMjAxMDp0cmFja3MvODQxOTYyOTQ2?v ed=0CAkQzsICahcKEwiY2PXPq4_qAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBg&hl=en

[ergott]

That's exactly the snark I no longer wish to be associated with. As I said before it's not the mods I have a problem with, they have their work cut out for them. It's people that can't get real about a very real topic.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[tctyres]

That's exactly the snark I no longer wish to be associated with. As I said before it's not the mods I have a problem with, they have their work cut out for them. It's people that can't get real about a very real topic.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

My point is that anything that is remotely political gets locked. Discrimination in cycling is very real. It needs to be addressed. Listen to the Major Taylor discussion.

I edited my post before I saw yours, but I understand your frustration.

[XXtwindad]

OK, but then why can we not discuss George Floyd et al on this forum? Why is that topic "off limits" and this thread not? Where is the consistency? I have no idea where the forum line is drawn, nor in what sand, any longer. It is very confusing, and feels very inconsistent.

And if the "back on topic" topic is somehow parsed/deemed to be "the man, and that [c]rust", then what the hell happened to the entire first paragraph of the op's post? :confused:

Leo Rodgers / Dexter Benjamin OK, as cool "influencers" on Juneteenth, but George Floyd / Ahmoud Arbery/ et al not OK, on any day?
Huh.
I lodge my disagreement to the dichotomy, then, just as ergott did, in the hope that truly honest and broader discussion of the most salient topics of the day be open to discussion here, in the interests of actual free speech, open dialogue, and outward education.

Agreed. We’re not cycling in a vacuum.

[MattTuck]

Major Taylor was one of the first sports superstars, and faced tremendous discrimination. Jesse Owens, Jackie Robinson, and countless others blazed new pathways against the status quo.

I don't have any great perspective on the issues we face, or their solutions. But I greatly admire these individuals who demonstrated great courage in the face of adversity, threats, harassment and bigotry, in their efforts to compete. They achieved greatness in environments that were often hostile toward them because of their skin color.

If I can take some solace from these individuals' stories, it is the fact that no one today bats an eyelash at the thought of a black athlete performing at the very the highest level of a sport. I have to hope that same shift in thinking will trickle down to all aspects and professions of society.

I'm heartened at the urgency we are feeling right now for real progress, and hope it will be a catalyst for meaningful change.

[AngryScientist]

So - to steer on-topic:

what did any of you do on this day?

personally, my progressive employer told us all to take the day off and reflect on what juneteenth is all about.

my opinion is that one of the most important things parents and people associated with young people can do is educate the next generation about what racism is all about, what the roots of it are, and how we can eliminate the bias moving forward.

we spent a few hours this morning with our young kids talking about this, watching a few on-point videos and thinking about what we can do to be better people.

what did you to today to make the world a better place?

[akelman]

For people who are interested, you could read Ibram X Kendi's Stamped from the Beginning (https://www.nationalbook.org/books/stamped-from-the-beginning-the-definitive-history-of-racist-ideas-in-america/), Ta-Nehisi Coates's Between the World and Me (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/220290/between-the-world-and-me-by-ta-nehisi-coates/), or, if you want to think a bit about what's changed and what hasn't, James Baldwin's uncomfortably prescient The Fire Next Time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fire_Next_Time). I've got a million more where that came from. But for those of you who'd rather watch something than read something, The American Experience series Eyes on the Prize (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud82QzXO7xw) is free on YouTube. That's just the first episode; I think they're all on there.

[FlashUNC]

The James Baldwin documentary from 2016 -- I am not your Negro -- is also an important and powerful viewing experience.

[eddief]

https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/8/26/20829771/slavery-textbooks-history

So - to steer on-topic:

what did any of you do on this day?

personally, my progressive employer told us all to take the day off and reflect on what juneteenth is all about.

my opinion is that one of the most important things parents and people associated with young people can do is educate the next generation about what racism is all about, what the roots of it are, and how we can eliminate the bias moving forward.

we spent a few hours this morning with our young kids talking about this, watching a few on-point videos and thinking about what we can do to be better people.

what did you to today to make the world a better place?

[Toeclips]

When I was a bike messenger in dc back in the 80's there was a guy who had only one arm, how he did it I don't know, but he worked for every bit of 5 years if not more

[AngryScientist]

For people who are interested, you could read Ibram X Kendi's Stamped from the Beginning (https://www.nationalbook.org/books/stamped-from-the-beginning-the-definitive-history-of-racist-ideas-in-america/), Ta-Nehisi Coates's Between the World and Me (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/220290/between-the-world-and-me-by-ta-nehisi-coates/), or, if you want to think a bit about what's changed and what hasn't, James Baldwin's uncomfortably prescient The Fire Next Time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fire_Next_Time). I've got a million more where that came from. But for those of you who'd rather watch something than read something, The American Experience series Eyes on the Prize (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud82QzXO7xw) is free on YouTube. That's just the first episode; I think they're all on there.

The James Baldwin documentary from 2016 -- I am not your Negro -- is also an important and powerful viewing experience.

lots of good viewing material. great.

what did you do today. what do you plan to do?

watching documentaries and videos are great. let's talk about action.

[ergott]

My point is that anything that is remotely political gets locked. Discrimination in cycling is very real. It needs to be addressed. Listen to the Major Taylor discussion.

I edited my post before I saw yours, but I understand your frustration.

Sorry, nothing personal. :beer:

[ergott]

lots of good viewing material. great.

what did you do today. what do you plan to do?

watching documentaries and videos are great. let's talk about action.

I have been discussing this with people that don't necessarily see the problems, mostly because they've been sheltered from it. I know many good people that don't intend to be racist with their thoughts or views, but are simply ignorant of the bigger picture. I don't blame them and when discussed rationally I've felt like there was some progress made.

This is a huge stray from reality, but I really think there's some weight to The Matrix as a metaphor. The Matrix is our bubble we're brought up in and our views were shaped by those around us. Some can be awoken from this bubble, some cases require much care before proceeding. Good people are everywhere and my contribution is through education. Heck, I've learned a lot myself in the last couple of years particularly about the US history that isn't in the schoolbooks.

[m_moses]

I was riding recently, not to far from home, when I saw a historical marker I had not noticed before. I quickly turned around to read it. It was a marker for the Freedom Tree located in what is now, Missouri City, Texas, a suburb of Houston.

In June 1865, the tree was part of Palmer Plantation and it was under the branches of this tree that the enslaved workers of the plantation learned that they were free.

There would have been a celebration under the tree today but because of COVID-19 it was canceled.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200620/0b81db6fbb75cb198b5c9c452fc9288d.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200620/fc3b5aca2c604a020e21df94e963c063.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[tctyres]

Sorry, nothing personal. :beer:

Completely understand. At some point, there are current events threads that are related to cycling. This is one.

Like I said, it needs to be addressed.

I've worked with one of the local clubs on getting people in cycling, and its tough. We wind up with a bunch of white guys ... nothing against white guys, but it's hard to get women into the programs.

On top of that, we are diversity limited despite being in a huge metropolitan area. It's really befuddling.

[FlashUNC]

lots of good viewing material. great.

what did you do today. what do you plan to do?

watching documentaries and videos are great. let's talk about action.

I plan to vote. Want to end systemic racism? Vote.

Listening and learning is also an action.

[akelman]

lots of good viewing material. great.

what did you do today. what do you plan to do?

watching documentaries and videos are great. let's talk about action.

It seems like you're issuing some kind of challenge, to which I guess my response is: huh? I was sharing some materials for people who might be, as I said, interested. Regardless, since you asked, I spent the day in meetings devoted to figuring out my workplace's operational status this coming fall—ask me if we got anywhere—and about the proper role for the campus police force. A lot of the discussion was devoted to BLM.

[BobbyJones]

I've worked with one of the local clubs on getting people in cycling, and its tough. We wind up with a bunch of white guys ... nothing against white guys, but it's hard to get women into the programs.

On top of that, we are diversity limited despite being in a huge metropolitan area. It's really befuddling.

Your limited club diversity has to do with racial / gender bias and ethnocentricity. (No kidding! you say)

To put it frankly, you may want it (diversity) but it may not want you. Wishing you the best luck in your efforts.

[gasman]

Your limited club diversity has to do with racial / gender bias and ethnocentricity. (No kidding! you say)

To put it frankly, you may want it (diversity) but it may not want you. Wishing you the best luck in your efforts.

There’s no need to put down someone’s honest effort to reach out to others just because they aren’t successful. They are making an effort which is a positive thing.
I bet that the vast majority of members here are white males. I would like to see a greater diversity here but I think our membership just reflects who I see riding regularly. Mostly guys. And here in Eugene mostly white guys.
Back when there were group rides we always had a couple of women show up which is great.

What can we do ? I think listening and being aware. There is injustice in our country.

[BobbyJones]

This may be part of the forum / understanding / lockdown issues.

I wasn’t “putting down...” the effort, but being forthcoming with the issue found to be “befuddling” to the poster. Even wishing the best for said efforts.

Communication can be hard, and even more difficult on the Internet. Maybe a query to understand / clarify instead of negativity and accusation may serve the community better. Especially in this time of listening.

[Malinois]

I was riding recently, not to far from home, when I saw a historical marker I had not noticed before. I quickly turned around to read it. It was a marker for the Freedom Tree located in what is now, Missouri City, Texas, a suburb of Houston.

In June 1865, the tree was part of Palmer Plantation and it was under the branches of this tree that the enslaved workers of the plantation learned that they were free.

There would have been a celebration under the tree today but because of COVID-19 it was canceled.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200620/0b81db6fbb75cb198b5c9c452fc9288d.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200620/fc3b5aca2c604a020e21df94e963c063.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I doubt I would have ever seen this if you hadn’t posted it. Thanks for sharing.

[2LeftCleats]

Didn’t “do” anything special today. Despite the endless and similar instances of racial animosity over the years, recent events have provoked much greater thought among my friends and family. Likely this has to do with the gaping disparities laid bare by the virus and political schism. What I previously understood from an intellectual standpoint has really hit home viscerally. Obviously, there’s no way a privileged white dude can grasp fully the impact that the legacy of slavery has had on its victims, but if my reaction is in any way representative of others like me, perhaps we’re on the verge of a profound societal shift.

[josephr]

the guy is a bad-a$$ rider for sure...but even more bad-A$$ since he's riding steel! Plastic bikes are for suckas! :banana:

[sonicCows]

To put it frankly, you may want it (diversity) but it may not want you. Wishing you the best luck in your efforts.

Totally fair. At the same time, you (speaking generally here) may never know because you have never tried. There are plenty of black/people of color cyclists, after all, who doesn't love riding a bike? But sometimes riding bikes becomes more about the bikes and not the riding–and I dare to say in real life most people aren't interested in coming up with excuses to spend more of their hard-earned money (like we do on this forum) especially when wealth and income disparities come into play.

Maybe the change won't be with nearly-all white cycling clubs, but with co-ops, improved cycling infrastructure, and youth program sponsorships

[dancinkozmo]

cool video on leo rodgers here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=bSsGxNDSGzY&feature=emb_logo

[weisan]

cool video on leo rodgers here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=bSsGxNDSGzY&feature=emb_logo

Thank you. I am completely in awe with joy and tears.

[makoti]

The James Baldwin documentary from 2016 -- I am not your Negro -- is also an important and powerful viewing experience.

Available on Amazon Prime

[tctyres]

Your limited club diversity has to do with racial / gender bias and ethnocentricity. (No kidding! you say)

To put it frankly, you may want it (diversity) but it may not want you. Wishing you the best luck in your efforts.

This may be part of the forum / understanding / lockdown issues.

I wasn’t “putting down...” the effort, but being forthcoming with the issue found to be “befuddling” to the poster. Even wishing the best for said efforts.

Communication can be hard, and even more difficult on the Internet. Maybe a query to understand / clarify instead of negativity and accusation may serve the community better. Especially in this time of listening.

Honestly, I'm not the leadership of the club. This is something that I've noticed that has left me scratching my head.

When you refer to "ethnocentricity," you hide whiteness. We cannot talk about "being black in cycling" without talking about "being white in cycling" and what each of those things means. "Separate but equal" was tried and doesn't work. We now refer to it as segregation. There isn't an "it doesn't want you." The implication of that is "exclusion is ok, and those people don't want you." Equality and inclusion are much more powerful than exclusion.

People want to get on their bikes and ride without the color of their skin coloring their experience. It sucks.

Again, take a listen to the Major Taylor club discussion I linked to in post #11. The Iron riders aren't discussing their frustration in finding a refuge. They are discussing their frustration with other clubs and how they have been treated.

You're veiled effort at compassion was called out by a mod. Acting naive and pointing a finger doesn't work here.

[Skenry]

I plan to vote. Want to end systemic racism? Vote.

Listening and learning is also an action.

Total agreement. There are problems within the system, and universally, across this Great Nation, one party is in charge of these large urban cities and towns, one party is in charge of many of these police departments, city councils and county commissions. That party has been in place in many of these large cities from, in some cases, 30 to 80 years and have purposely built that system of oppression. The system they protest and rally to change is brought upon themselves by their votes.

It's time to end that system, it has failed our Great Nation.

The Cloward-Piven Strategy. Learn, it's on the verge of becoming a reality.

[Elefantino]

The James Baldwin documentary from 2016 -- I am not your Negro -- is also an important and powerful viewing experience.

Available on Amazon Prime

And will leave you with a lot to think about.

[BobbyJones]

Honestly, I'm not the leadership of the club. This is something that I've noticed.......

.....You're veiled effort at compassion was called out by a mod. Acting naive and pointing a finger doesn't work here.

Ah, it’s the old “let’s have a conversation as long it’s what I want to hear”.

I get it now.

[rnhood]

Total agreement. There are problems within the system, and universally, across this Great Nation, one party is in charge of these large urban cities and towns, one party is in charge of many of these police departments, city councils and county commissions. That party has been in place in many of these large cities from, in some cases, 30 to 80 years and have purposely built that system of oppression. The system they protest and rally to change is brought upon themselves by their votes.

It's time to end that system, it has failed our Great Nation.

The Cloward-Piven Strategy. Learn, it's on the verge of becoming a reality.


Isn’t that the truth! Well stated.

[NHAero]

I rode my bike to a Juneteenth rally in Oak Bluffs that was the terminus of a march from Vineyard Haven (Martha's Vineyard) organized by young people. There were hundreds of people, mixed ages, races, and quite likely economic status. Some very compelling speakers - a friend who is a Wampanoag activist, a friend's college student daughter, D. J. Henry's sister amongst them. As far as action, what rose to the top repeatedly is, vote. If younger people and people of color increase their turnout, despite ramped up efforts at disenfranchisement, the tide of white privilege and white supremacy can begin to be turned.

My wife is an ordained Buddhist chaplain whose (not paid) work has been in helping white people become aware of the presence and effects of white privilege. It's been quite an ongoing learning experience. My first exposure to this was a long time ago, reading Peggy McIntosh's short and pithy essay White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Backpack. (https://www.racialequitytools.org/resourcefiles/mcintosh.pdf) It's a list of 50 things a white person, especially male, takes for granted that others cannot.

Vis-a-vis the little dust-up up-thread about the cycling club and why it's not diverse: this is where we need to do some work, because what BobbyJones was saying, I think, is that it's not enough to say, we're open to everybody. The professional group I belong to for >40 years, a terrific and generous community of practice of people designing and building high performance environmental buildings, was mostly male and still is almost all white. We've been open and not exclusionary, but that hasn't changed things, and there are needed steps beyond that the organization has begun to take in the past couple of years. There's a diversity caucus, formed and led by women, with strong LGBTQ and people of color representation, that have been working together and issued a report to the membership and (a very receptive) board as to what actions can be taken to broaden our membership to groups that are not represented. This work doesn't change things overnight, it's a marathon, maybe an ultra, not a sprint, but it's taken 400 years to get where we are.

Finally - this is all of a piece with environmental degradation and climate change. It is violence used to maintain power and it springs from the same rooted beliefs.

[rowebr]

Major Taylor was one of the first sports superstars, and faced tremendous discrimination. Jesse Owens, Jackie Robinson, and countless others blazed new pathways against the status quo.

I don't have any great perspective on the issues we face, or their solutions. But I greatly admire these individuals who demonstrated great courage in the face of adversity, threats, harassment and bigotry, in their efforts to compete. They achieved greatness in environments that were often hostile toward them because of their skin color.

If I can take some solace from these individuals' stories, it is the fact that no one today bats an eyelash at the thought of a black athlete performing at the very the highest level of a sport. I have to hope that same shift in thinking will trickle down to all aspects and professions of society.

I'm heartened at the urgency we are feeling right now for real progress, and hope it will be a catalyst for meaningful change.

Well said! Thank you for this.

[NHAero]

This provocative post brings up the Cloward-Piven strategy.

From Wikipedia:
The Cloward–Piven strategy is a political strategy outlined in 1966 by American sociologists and political activists Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven that called for overloading the U.S. public welfare system in order to precipitate a crisis that would lead to a replacement of the welfare system with "a guaranteed annual income and thus an end to poverty."

What we are seeing in this moment is a desire amongst many to understand what is behind the systemic racism this country is infected with. So I invite people to look deeper.

- Why is the poverty rate in the US only exceeded by Israel amongst OECD nations?
- Why, in the US, is the poverty rate 25% amongst Native Americans, 21% amongst African-Americans, and 10% amongst Whites?


Total agreement. There are problems within the system, and universally, across this Great Nation, one party is in charge of these large urban cities and towns, one party is in charge of many of these police departments, city councils and county commissions. That party has been in place in many of these large cities from, in some cases, 30 to 80 years and have purposely built that system of oppression. The system they protest and rally to change is brought upon themselves by their votes.

It's time to end that system, it has failed our Great Nation.

The Cloward-Piven Strategy. Learn, it's on the verge of becoming a reality.

[tctyres]

Ah, it’s the old “let’s have a conversation as long it’s what I want to hear”.

I get it now.

Please do not continue to criticize me. It played out on your first post.

Start here:
For people who are interested, you could read Ibram X Kendi's Stamped from the Beginning (https://www.nationalbook.org/books/stamped-from-the-beginning-the-definitive-history-of-racist-ideas-in-america/), Ta-Nehisi Coates's Between the World and Me (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/220290/between-the-world-and-me-by-ta-nehisi-coates/), or, if you want to think a bit about what's changed and what hasn't, James Baldwin's uncomfortably prescient The Fire Next Time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fire_Next_Time). I've got a million more where that came from. But for those of you who'd rather watch something than read something, The American Experience series Eyes on the Prize (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud82QzXO7xw) is free on YouTube. That's just the first episode; I think they're all on there.


Add to that:
White Fragility by Robin DiAngelo
Race Talk by Derald Wing Sue
Whistling Vivaldi by Claude Steele

[witcombusa]

Black Racism and Slavery: History Lesson

https://helenaglass.wpcomstaging.com/2020/06/18/black-racism-and-slavery-history-lesson/

[Burnette]

I spent Juneteenth encouraging coworkers to join our newly formed diversity committee. Four people, two of color and some I interesting conversations arose.

One person felt that they couldn't offer anything because they didn't experience some if the situations and and conditions of others. This person is a problem solver by profession and proclivity. He has expressed empathy and concern. I told him that he has much to bring to the table and that those of us in the middle, what I believe to be the true majority in America, should stand up, together. The loudest on each side get all the oxygen, we should take it back and work together with care and reason.

The rest of the day was spent with family and periods of reflection.

[skitlets]

There’s no need to put down someone’s honest effort to reach out to others just because they aren’t successful. They are making an effort which is a positive thing.
I bet that the vast majority of members here are white males. I would like to see a greater diversity here but I think our membership just reflects who I see riding regularly. Mostly guys. And here in Eugene mostly white guys.
Back when there were group rides we always had a couple of women show up which is great.

What can we do ? I think listening and being aware. There is injustice in our country.

Thank you for this. As a POC, one of the most frustrating things about engaging in conversation about race is that people simply don't listen. It's exhausting to draw the short stick, have the experience of drawing the short stick be minimized, then be forced to educate others on why it is so while they refuse to even listen to my perspective. And this is coming from a well-educated, POC lawyer!

The BIPOC perspective is consistently minimized. From the obvious "all lives matter" to mundane every day conversation, like "well, everyone has it hard." If you (the generic you) find yourself saying phrases that minimize the very real experience of POC, please take a moment to reflect and pick up one of the many great books listed in this thread.

[colker]

The best art ever made in America is Jazz music and it´s Black. Power ends, money burns but Art stays forever.

[skitlets]

For easy action ideas, follow POC cyclists like Ayesha (https://www.instagram.com/ayesuppose/?hl=en)for their thoughts on diversity in cycling and volunteer or donate to your local bike co-op.

This line of reasoning comes up too often on this forum: "If I were XYZ... I would think that the problem/solution is really this." Don't assume; you're just reinforcing your own beliefs and biases. Take the time to read an outside perspective.

[Ralph]

I grew up in a small SW NC segregated town. "Separate but equal" is how "they like it" was what I always heard. In high school.....when we got new band uniforms, our old ones were shipped over to the black HS. Same with large band instruments. Separate waiting rooms in local bus station, separate rest rooms and water fountains. There was even separate black college, though by then most all state college and Universities had been integrated.....sorta. After I left there and went "off" to college (1959)....never really went back. I have friends who still live there, and say things have changed in some ways, and in so many ways not really.

I still ask myself....if I had been born a minority, would I have had the same opportunities that were given to me. Good public schooling, a fine College experience, good jobs and career....which allowed me to retire with relative comfort? I know the answer.

So what can I do now? At age 79? One thing....stop thinking of myself as an old white guy. I've always been pretty much color blind I said to myself, but was I really? Did my past experiences blind me to what is really going on in our country? Or was I too busy to notice? Am I too old to make a difference now? I realize now thinking I'm not part of the problem, is not the same as being part of the solution.

So like most of you I imagine, I'm going to work on this. I don't have the energy for causes I maybe once had, but maybe I could donate to some good causes. I know a good minority kid who could use some help. Do something! It's not enough to assume others will solve this problem. Been thinking about this ever since 1959 when I left that town for college. And maybe saying what I said here just shows I still don't get it.

[XXtwindad]

I grew up in a small SW NC segregated town. "Separate but equal" is how "they like it" was what I always heard. In high school.....when we got new band uniforms, our old ones were shipped over to the black HS. Same with large band instruments. Separate waiting rooms in local bus station, separate rest rooms and water fountains. There was even separate black college, though by then most all state college and Universities had been integrated.....sorta. After I left there and went "off" to college (1959)....never really went back. I have friends who still live there, and say things have changed in some ways, and in so many ways not really.

I still ask myself....if I had been born a minority, would I have had the same opportunities that were given to me. Good public schooling, a fine College experience, good jobs and career....which allowed me to retire with relative comfort? I know the answer.

So what can I do now? At age 79? One thing....stop thinking of myself as an old white guy. I've always been pretty much color blind I said to myself, but was I really? Did my past experiences blind me to what is really going on in our country? Or was I too busy to notice? Am I too old to make a difference now? I realize now thinking I'm not part of the problem, is not the same as being part of the solution.

So like most of you I imagine, I'm going to work on this. I don't have the energy for causes I maybe once had, but maybe I could donate to some good causes. I know a good minority kid who could use some help. Do something! It's not enough to assume others will solve this problem. Been thinking about this ever since 1959 when I left that town for college. And maybe saying what I said here just shows I still don't get it.

This was the best response in the thread. Further proof that controversial topics can yield thoughtful and civilized responses.

I really wish the “statue thread” had remained open. History is being written (and rewritten) right now. It might also be a more accessible conduit into the topic of structural racism. Not everyone is comfortable with the level of self-reflection that Ralph skillfully exhibited.

[ergott]

The best art ever made in America is Jazz music and it´s Black. Power ends, money burns but Art stays forever.

Just a point of information, there's growing support for the term BAM or Black American Music. Rock and roll wouldn't exist without BAM either. This is from 2013.

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/music/la-xpm-2013-apr-27-la-et-ms-nicholas-payton-jazz-bam-20130428-story.html

[Ralph]

This is an example of what I was trying to say above. I mentioned to my son a while back I had this new (to me) terrific young primary care Doc. She was smart, took plenty of time in examining room, had all my records on her laptop so was very prepared when she saw me, and was from Hatti and very black.

My son looked at me with this hurt look on his face and said "Dad.....so you are saying she is good for a black Doctor and you want a medal for being OK with her"? I then realized what I had said. For the first time in my life I realized what a hurtful and racist way I sometimes thought.....and spoke. I did not realize I was doing it. Didn't mean to imply that. Thought I was paying her a compliment.
I just didn't "get" it. That's what I am working on. And I don't need a medal.

[akelman]

Black Racism and Slavery: History Lesson

https://helenaglass.wpcomstaging.com/2020/06/18/black-racism-and-slavery-history-lesson/

This kind of garbage has absolutely no place in a thread that's devoted to celebrating Juneteenth and thinking about the nation's history of racism. If you want to start a pro-racism thread, that's your prerogative, I suppose.

[NHAero]

I read it and chose to not respond, because the way threads get locked is that people throw things like this into the mix and others respond. This is such an opportunity to make a huge shift in the awareness of millions of goodhearted people who haven't previously been engaged. Let's not waste bandwidth on these type of posts, but rather help each other learn and act and make this country live up to “all men are created equal....with certain inalienable rights....life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”

It’s not too late!

QUOTE=akelman;2743140]This kind of garbage has absolutely no place in a thread that's devoted to celebrating Juneteenth and thinking about the nation's history of racism. If you want to start a pro-racism thread, that's your prerogative, I suppose.[/QUOTE]

[Dino Suegiù]

Black Racism and Slavery: History Lesson

https://helenaglass.wpcomstaging.com/2020/06/18/black-racism-and-slavery-history-lesson/
https://forums.thepaceline.net/images/icons/icon13.gif

What?

The insulting idiocy quoted above is allowed to be posted and stand here, as a putrid example of complete blindness...but bring up real victims, police violence/murder, racism at the highest levels, Nov 3, even Geoffrey Berman today I bet, etc etc etc etc and...:no: :no: :no:https://forums.thepaceline.net/images/statusicon/thread_hot_lock.gif

What the hell is happening here? This is is surreal, except of course it is not at all. This is well on to disgusting and farcical.


Juneteenth has never been a celebration of victory, or an acceptance of the way things are. It's a celebration of progress. It's an affirmation that despite the most painful parts of our history, change is possible––and there is still so much work to do.
— Barack Obama (@BarackObama) June 19, 2020
Truer words....



And, NHAero, silence is indeed acceptance in the case of witcombusa's post. Paraphrasing the Constitution will turning the other cheek is a huge part of the problem, and has been so for generations.

[Hellgate]

I spent Juneteenth working. Part of the day was interviewing. The three candidates happened to be black, one is from Nigeria.

I'm not sure what that says, if anything as I hire the best people for the job.

Having been in Texas the past 26 years Juneteenth has away been a minor "holiday" that gets passing acknowledgement fromm pretty much everyone. It isn't recognized as a holiday, however, some people take it off with floating holiday. The black people I've worked with don't mention it.

Personally, if someone wants to take a holiday off, fine with me as that's their business.

Then again Texas has all kinds of holiday's, Cinco de Mayo, San Jacinto day, LBJ's birthday, Texas Independence Day etc. If all of them were a day off no one would actually work. Hopefully Confederate Memorial Day (nee Confederate Hero's Day) is **** canned. Ironically, it's the day before MLK Day. No one has mentioned that pairing yet.

I think it's odd that people in the northeast are getting worked up over what is seen as a minor "holiday" in the state that started it.

[Dino Suegiù]

Just a point of information, there's growing support for the term BAM or Black American Music. Rock and roll wouldn't exist without BAM either. This is from 2013.

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/music/la-xpm-2013-apr-27-la-et-ms-nicholas-payton-jazz-bam-20130428-story.html

Pretty weak stuff it seems.

But, nothing like generic terminology palliatives* to substitute for actual precise proposals, I suppose.

(* I do not mean your terms, ergott, I mean Mr. Payton's, just to be 100% clear.)

[BobbyJones]

This is an example of what I was trying to say above. I mentioned to my son a while back I had this new (to me) terrific young primary care Doc. She was smart, took plenty of time in examining room, had all my records on her laptop so was very prepared when she saw me, and was from Hatti and very black.

My son looked at me with this hurt look on his face and said "Dad.....so you are saying she is good for a black Doctor and you want a medal for being OK with her"? I then realized what I had said. For the first time in my life I realized what a hurtful and racist way I sometimes thought.....and spoke. I did not realize I was doing it. Didn't mean to imply that. Thought I was paying her a compliment.
I just didn't "get" it. That's what I am working on. And I don't need a medal.

And yet this thread was started with a proclamation of “my favorite black cyclist”.
Something to think about.

[FlashUNC]

Black Racism and Slavery: History Lesson

https://helenaglass.wpcomstaging.com/2020/06/18/black-racism-and-slavery-history-lesson/

Helena needs to take a trip to the Old Slave Mart in Charleston. This piece is garbage.

https://www.charleston-sc.gov/160/Old-Slave-Mart-Museum

[akelman]

I read it and chose to not respond, because the way threads get locked is that people throw things like this into the mix and others respond. This is such an opportunity to make a huge shift in the awareness of millions of goodhearted people who haven't previously been engaged. Let's not waste bandwidth on these type of posts, but rather help each other learn and act and make this country live up to “all men are created equal....with certain inalienable rights....life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”

It’s not too late!

I appreciate you saying so, and I mostly agree. But I think we're at a point with certain issues that members of dominant groups have an obligation (maybe moral and certainly social) to speak up when they see racist or sexist or xenophobic filth being spewed within their communities, whether online or otherwise.

I basically got into zero disputes at this site for a decade and a half. I think people thought of me as a very nice guy. Actually, I once got into it with 93LegendTi (I think that was his handle), because his bigotry became impossible to ignore. Then, much more recently, I got completely sick to death of the complacency here when it comes to allowing some members and some mods to post disinformation and/or hateful nonsense. I got banned for speaking my mind, and I was totally cool with that.

I know that the mods here, most of whom are totally awesome, have a very hard job. I truly don't want to make it harder. But I'm done staying silent when I see things posted that I view as overtly wrong (I'm not talking about the people who, insanely, believe that Shimano is anywhere near as good as Campy.) I recognize that I may make some people angry. I recognize that I may ultimately lose my place in this community. I really don't want that. I've been a member in good standing for a very long time. I have a lot of friends here. I'm not looking for fights. But I'll live with the consequences.

I want to be clear about one thing: I don't think I'm taking some kind of a brave stand. I'm just tired of a certain kind of crap I've seen here a lot through the years. And I don't think it's right for a middle-aged white guy who has all the social and political capital in the world not to speak out. It's literally the very least I can do.

[Dino Suegiù]

And yet this thread was started with a proclamation of “my favorite black cyclist”.
Something to think about.

Indeed.
And what exactly does "she...was...very black.", from that same quote while recounting the story, mean?
Was the previous doctor ever described as "very white", etc?

[Dino Suegiù]

I appreciate you saying so, and I mostly agree. But I think we're at a point with certain issues that members of dominant groups have an obligation (maybe moral and certainly social) to speak up when they see racist or sexist or xenophobic filth being spewed within their communities, whether online or otherwise.

Then, much more recently, I got completely sick to death of the complacency here when it comes to allowing some members and some mods to post disinformation and/or hateful nonsense. I got banned for speaking my mind....

But I'm done staying silent when I see things posted that I view as overtly wrong.... I'm not looking for fights. But I'll live with the consequences.

I want to be clear about one thing: I don't think I'm taking some kind of a brave stand. I'm just tired of a certain kind of crap I've seen here a lot through the years.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/images/icons/icon14.gif

Consistency on the part of the moderators (and members) regarding topics and posts would certainly go a long way toward promoting the "civil discussion" so apparently yearned for, and yet....

[flydhest]

As a former mod and long-time member (lord knows how many iterations of the forum) the one who passed along the artwork for the Paceline logo ... and as a black cyclist, I have to say the outpouring of smart sentiment here is welcome, but the recurring bits of racist commentary that were called out are not surprising.

At some point, saying race is not political will be seen as untenable. Of course it is political. It has always been political. Pretending otherwise ... well. Mods are trying to do a tough job, but talking about race Is political. Turns out, not talking about race is political, too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NHAero]

If we all could refrain from ad hominem attacks, and value judgement wording like "this piece is garbage" then the threads could stay open and anyone with an open mind would learn more. Or, call the poster out to prove their point. Shortly after Floyd's murder, someone posted in Kevin Gilmore's thread about riding into Minneapolis something about the 1619 Project, and someone else said that the 1619 Project is a farce and distortion. That was a post designed to deflect attention from the topic being discussed, but I wanted to ask, please give us three examples of distortions in that piece. If we are going to jump into calling out posts/links that are false/offensive, etc., let's keep it to the facts. Keep the thread open as long as it's serving our collective learning, and don't be concerned about those whose minds are firmly made up.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/images/icons/icon14.gif

Consistency on the part of the moderators (and members) regarding topics and posts would certainly go a long way toward promoting the "civil discussion" so apparently yearned for, and yet....

[Dino Suegiù]

https://forums.thepaceline.net/images/icons/icon14.gif

Consistency on the part of the moderators (and members) regarding topics and posts would certainly go a long way toward promoting the "civil discussion" so apparently yearned for, and yet....If we all could refrain from ad hominem attacks, and value judgement wording like "this piece is garbage" then the threads could stay open and anyone with an open mind would learn more. Or, call the poster out to prove their point. Shortly after Floyd's murder, someone posted in Kevin Gilmore's thread about riding into Minneapolis something about the 1619 Project, and someone else said that the 1619 Project is a farce and distortion. That was a post designed to deflect attention from the topic being discussed, but I wanted to ask, please give us three examples of distortions in that piece. If we are going to jump into calling out posts/links that are false/offensive, etc., let's keep it to the facts. Keep the thread open as long as it's serving our collective learning, and don't be concerned about those whose minds are firmly made up.
Are you accusing me of engaging in ad hominem attacks?
If so, where?

I completely disagree with and find extremely offensive the "article" witcombusa posted, and I stated so explicitly on the previous page, without "attacking" witcombusa in any way. Why are you singling out only my objection to that post, when at least three other disagreements with the content have been expressed here by others? Stating that the "article" is garbage, as akelman, myself, and others posted, is no attack on witcombusa.

That said, if members are wont to post that kind of "article" here, then maybe the posting member should be the one to actually enunciate his/her reasons for doing so, rather than simply cutting and pasting such rhetoric while neither expressing an opinion on the contents they are quoting nor positing their own further argument for discussion.

Silence can be, often is a form of tacit acceptance, and the subsequent virtual approval via tacit acceptance in the case of that "article" being posted here is indeed offensive.

Finally, as a citizen of the human race, I will in fact continue to be steadfastly extremely "...concerned about those whose minds are firmly made up." Ignoring them is definitely no solution imo.


(Also FWIW: I very much appreciated (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=2728805&postcount=6) Kevin Gilmore's thread, as well as most of the replies...including your own (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=2728914&postcount=11). I do not agree with that thread's closure, but that is obviously nothing new at this point.)

[FlashUNC]

If we all could refrain from ad hominem attacks, and value judgement wording like "this piece is garbage" then the threads could stay open and anyone with an open mind would learn more. Or, call the poster out to prove their point. Shortly after Floyd's murder, someone posted in Kevin Gilmore's thread about riding into Minneapolis something about the 1619 Project, and someone else said that the 1619 Project is a farce and distortion. That was a post designed to deflect attention from the topic being discussed, but I wanted to ask, please give us three examples of distortions in that piece. If we are going to jump into calling out posts/links that are false/offensive, etc., let's keep it to the facts. Keep the thread open as long as it's serving our collective learning, and don't be concerned about those whose minds are firmly made up.

I'm sorry I have a rather visceral reaction to people posting racist screeds on a bike forum under the fig leaf guise that somehow all ideas are worthy of discussion and merit.

And to your point, rather than waste time rebutting point for point tired, clearly disproven, racist nonsense, I think a shorthand of calling the piece exactly what it is saves us all a lot of time and effort. It's simply not worth the energy to pretend it is anything other than a bad faith recitation of the same old bigoted tropes.

So now we're in the situation where the reaction to racism is what gets threads closed? Clearly through the Looking Glass on this one if what gets stuff shut down isn't open and unapologetic racism, but the reaction to the racism when it (justifiably) gets peoples hackles up with "values judgment" wording?

If we want freedom of discussion, that freedom should include allowing the full throated rejection of racist statements in clear, unambiguous terms.

[NHAero]

Apologies, unintended consequences of my clumsiness. I was completely generalizing about what gets threads locked. My preference is for us all, if we wish to respond to offensive posts, to keep the tone calm and 'speak' in a manner similar to how we would in person. Push them to do just as you say below - enunciate their reasoning, etc.

You and I are entitled to have differing ideas of the most effective tactics to bring about change. I choose to keep educating myself and others who have been relatively passive in the arena of racism and injustice, especially now. Every poll shows that there is a majority of people in the US who are increasingly upset about income inequality, climate change, and racism. If we build awareness of these issues amongst the complacent white middle class (shrinking but still there) and they join the young and POC and vote, we have a majority and will reverse the course of authoritarianism we've seen in the past 3-1/2 years.

Are you accusing me of engaging in ad hominem attacks?
If so, where?

I completely disagree with and find extremely offensive the "article" witcombusa posted, and I stated so explicitly on the previous page, without "attacking" witcombusa in any way. Why are you singling out only my objection to that post, when at least three other disagreements with the content have been expressed here by others? Stating that the "article" is garbage, as akelman, myself, and others posted, is no attack on witcombusa.

That said, if members are wont to post that kind of "article" here, then maybe the posting member should be the one to actually enunciate his/her reasons for doing so, rather than simply cutting and pasting such rhetoric while neither expressing an opinion on the contents they are quoting nor positing their own further argument for discussion.

Silence can be, often is a form of tacit acceptance, and the subsequent virtual approval via tacit acceptance in the case of that "article" being posted here is indeed offensive.

Finally, as a citizen of the human race, I will in fact continue to be steadfastly extremely "...concerned about those whose minds are firmly made up." Ignoring them is definitely no solution imo.


(Also FWIW: I very much appreciated (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=2728805&postcount=6) Kevin Gilmore's thread, as well as most of the replies...including your own (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=2728914&postcount=11). I do not agree with that thread's closure, but that is obviously nothing new at this point.)

[Dino Suegiù]

Apologies, unintended consequences of my clumsiness. I was completely generalizing about what gets threads locked. My preference is for us all, if we wish to respond to offensive posts, to keep the tone calm and 'speak' in a manner similar to how we would in person. Push them to do just as you say below - enunciate their reasoning, etc.

You and I are entitled to have differing ideas of the most effective tactics to bring about change. I choose to keep educating myself and others who have been relatively passive in the arena of racism and injustice, especially now. Every poll shows that there is a majority of people in the US who are increasingly upset about income inequality, climate change, and racism. If we build awareness of these issues amongst the complacent white middle class (shrinking but still there) and they join the young and POC and vote, we have a majority and will reverse the course of authoritarianism we've seen in the past 3-1/2 years.

Thank you. Well said (and FlashUNC above too, imo...sometimes some posts are not so "innocent" at all).

https://forums.thepaceline.net/images/icons/icon14.gif

Certainly: even if we in fact do "have differing ideas of the most effective tactics to bring about change" let us hope that what comes out of the furnace then is solid, dependable, something resolute to stand on as the next piece in a very tall (with many steps still to go) ladder. My bet is that the view from up there is wonderful.

[colker]

Black Racism and Slavery: History Lesson

https://helenaglass.wpcomstaging.com/2020/06/18/black-racism-and-slavery-history-lesson/


It´s propaganda. Same old "it´s not my fault because it all goes back in time and everybody is a racist". No... racism/segregation of black people is a specific depravation in western history and capitalism. It goes back to slave trade. It is particularly depraved because Europe and colonies were already christian. Science was already established. There was enough conscience around for everyone to perceive how wrong it was. As much as there is conscience today of privilege and lack of opportunities for black and latino people.

[Black Dog]

This is one of the best threads this forum has produced. Thank you to all who have raised the level of discourse to new heights. Thank you to those who have countered the post of the link to the unsubstantiated, non referenced, untrue and myopic racist dog whistle (I am using the term correctly?) “history” blog post. Easy to rewrite history when you make up facts and mix in facts taken completely out of context then blast it loudly within an echo chamber. We should not allow people who push material like this to claim to be a victim because of being shouted down or attacked personally. I am so proud that we have tried to hold them to account by going after the ideas and asking the person pushing them to back them up. I think that is how we will break the echo chamber and pour daylight onto these dark ideas.

[gasman]

This is one of the best threads this forum has produced. Thank you to all who have raised the level of discourse to new heights. Thank you to those who have countered the post of the link to the unsubstantiated, non referenced, untrue and myopic racist dog whistle (I am using the term correctly?) “history” blog post. Easy to rewrite history when you make up facts and mix in facts taken completely out of context then blast it loudly within an echo chamber. We should not allow people who push material like this to claim to be a victim because being shouted down or attacked personally. I am so proud that we have tried to hold them to account by going after the ideas and asking the person pushing them to back them up. I think that is how we will break the echo chamber and pour daylight onto these dark ideas.

Well said. I for one thought it would not go well but the intelligence of the community has shown through. I did not read the linked post because there are just some links I know not to click on, for the reasons stated.

All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.-paraphrased from various sources.

[colker]

Hambini on cycling x race prejudice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5pA9lwRSqI

[classtimesailer]

I was riding recently, not to far from home, when I saw a historical marker I had not noticed before. I quickly turned around to read it. It was a marker for the Freedom Tree located in what is now, Missouri City, Texas, a suburb of Houston.

In June 1865, the tree was part of Palmer Plantation and it was under the branches of this tree that the enslaved workers of the plantation learned that they were free.

There would have been a celebration under the tree today but because of COVID-19 it was canceled.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200620/0b81db6fbb75cb198b5c9c452fc9288d.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200620/fc3b5aca2c604a020e21df94e963c063.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Texas has many historical markers. There is one in West Texas celebrating some 50 Texan heroes slaughtering a dozen or so Indigenous locals. ***? I wish I had the balls to run some of these markers down when I drive down there this month to help my folks move but TX scares me and I'm white. I think it helps us get through some crap by referring to white people by their skin color. Like, "...the white guy on the Colnago ..." try it. White folk need to make white folk uncomforable.

[Clean39T]

https://theradavist.com/2020/06/zhaawani-noodin-there-is-a-south-wind-a-response-to-the-name-dirty-kanza/

I really like the box metaphor she used in the middle there, and that's my link to the topics discussed above. We need to understand what those who are not yet anti-racist are seeing when they look out of their eyes and speak out of their experience -- it's the only way to engage in dialogue that has a chance of changing perspectives and moving us all forward. Asking "why" is a more powerful tool sometimes than telling "how".

The rest of her piece is excellent as well - and now I have another voice to go seek out and listen to.....

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[XXtwindad]

https://theradavist.com/2020/06/zhaawani-noodin-there-is-a-south-wind-a-response-to-the-name-dirty-kanza/

I really like the box metaphor she used in the middle there, and that's my link to the topics discussed above. We need to understand what those who are not yet anti-racist are seeing when they look out of their eyes and speak out of their experience -- it's the only way to engage in dialogue that has a chance of changing perspectives and moving us all forward. Asking "why" is a more powerful tool sometimes than telling "how".

The rest of her piece is excellent as well - and now I have another voice to go seek out and listen to.....

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Yeah. That was really cool.

[jwin]

I just read through the last 6 pages and I'm glad that my thread has prompted a healthy discussion on the subject. I was offline for the weekend and didn't get a chance to engage over the past few days. Even as semi-POC (half asian, white passing) talking about race is difficult and brings out many different and strong opinions. But our history must not be ignored, especially for those who have been hurt (killed!) so deeply by society. They cannot ignore it.

It has been really great to see this community's (of which I am new to) heartfelt responses and I've found a lot more reading material to check out in here. I wanted to add a few things that I see to affect change specifically in bringing more BIPOC to the world of cycling. I feel that the tide is already starting to shift (thankfully), but we need to do more. Everyone does. I'll start with a short story of my own position and bring it around to what I believe is so important for the cycling community.

I spent a summer in San Francisco in 2017 before I moved to Austin, TX. I got really into cycling in SF - especially in Marin (incredible!). When I moved to Austin, I really wanted to get involved in the cycling community. I spent 2.5 years there until recently moving to Seattle. I tried several different things to get involved. Some group rides (including Das Hugel), going to the Driveway Series (only as a spectator, though I wanted to race but was intimidated), and attending some events at Cycleast. Ultimately, I felt that I never fit in. I felt judged for the bike that I had (650b x 47 road tires), for the gear that I wore, and ultimately for how I looked. I wasn't a white guy. I wasn't in my early-thirties or older. I didn't have a $4000 bike. And on the flip side (east side), I wasn't a blue-collar, steel-riding, homegrown Austinite. No one was overtly MEAN to me, but no one really wanted to talk to me or provide a friendly welcome in the community. I felt like an outcast, not willing to fit the mold - whatever that is.

It's hard, if not impossible to get involved when this is how you feel. Regardless of the intentions of the community and what they claim to say on Instagram, et al. The cycling community MUST welcome people with open arms, but even more so with MENTORSHIP and ACCEPTANCE. It comes down to this. When you don't see people who look, act, and are like you in a community - joining that community feels insurmountable. I feel that the most important part of bringing more BIPOC to cycling is by gassing up and platforming other BIPOC as role models for the next generation. This shows younger BIPOC that they ARE welcome and there is a place for them. It doesn't matter what the intentions are, it's about what the effects are. This is why I called out Leo Rodgers, this is why this discussion is so important to me, and this is what I hope to change in the cycling community.

The color of your skin, your socio-economic class, where you live has absolutely nothing to do with whether you like cycling or not. The culture and history of cycling (specifically the type of cycling mostly done here in on this forum - BMX, fixie, etc is different) is ethnocentric and it makes non-white people feel they don't belong in the community. That's not ok, and we should be doing everything we can to change that.

[wc1934]

Just a point of information, there's growing support for the term BAM or Black American Music. Rock and roll wouldn't exist without BAM either. This is from 2013.

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/music/la-xpm-2013-apr-27-la-et-ms-nicholas-payton-jazz-bam-20130428-story.html

exactly - or this:

"the blues had a baby and they named it rock n roll" - Muddy Waters

[XXtwindad]

Interesting article in the NYT yesterday: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/22/us/racism-white-americans.html

"Research shows there is scant interpersonal contact between white and black Americans: One in five white respondents to a poll from the Public Religion Research Institute last year said that they rarely or never had an interaction with someone of a different race. In a 2013 study by the same group, a nonpartisan nonprofit, respondents were asked to identify the race of as many as seven people with whom they had discussed important matters in the six months before the survey. Among white respondents, 75 percent named only white individuals as their core friendship network.

“Many white Americans have chosen places to live, places to send their children to school, places to vacation, jobs to pursue, in ways that allow them to avoid thinking about racial inequality,” said Jennifer Chudy, a political scientist at Wellesley College. Her research suggests that only one in five white Americans consistently express high levels of sympathy about racial discrimination against black Americans."

I think the cited section above is the crux of the matter. I went to a public high school in Sacramento. I had friends from all across the racial spectrum. I made no effort to seek friends from a different ethnic background out - it was just a byproduct of attending a racially diverse school. Lack of exposure to people from different backgrounds, orientations (and perhaps thought as well) generally breeds suspicion and intolerance.

Another subtle point the article made: some people wear their "Confederate" flags on the outside, and some wear them on the inside. From the article:

"Some of the same communities where white liberals have been marching with “black lives matter” signs have seen steep resistance to efforts to integrate public schools and neighborhoods."

Me personally, I'd rather deal with a bigot that flies that flag proudly. Much more transparent. Nothing more nauseating than an affluent well-meaning "liberal" with a NIMBY streak.

[Dino Suegiù]

Interesting article in the NYT yesterday: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/22/us/racism-white-americans.html

...

Another subtle point the article made: some people wear their "Confederate" flags on the outside, and some wear them on the inside. From the article:

"Some of the same communities where white liberals have been marching with “black lives matter” signs have seen steep resistance to efforts to integrate public schools and neighborhoods."

Me personally, I'd rather deal with a bigot that flies that flag proudly. Much more transparent. Nothing more nauseating than an affluent well-meaning "liberal" with a NIMBY streak.

Could benefit from further specificity: That Confederate flag outside/inside quoted citation needs a more clear definition of the bolded terms "some" and "steep" imo...it reads pretty vague as it is, a lot of territory there. I am fairly confident that the statement is generally true to a degree, in certain places and cases, but perhaps not as universally extreme as it appears to want to imply?

Regarding your "Me personally", don't you think that one could effectively argue that only someone in a safe position of relative privilege could actually take that "I'd rather deal with..." position, that in fact for those actually in the line of constant prejudice and hatred the "bigot that flies that flag proudly" is one far more frightening mother-f@@@er than any "affluent NIMBY lib"? One is often outright bent on destruction, the other more often a sad and frightened hypocrite. Obviously we cannot ask the many anonymous people mis-treated daily who they fear most, so what if we ask Bubba Wallace, or Bubba Wallace's wife and children, et al in the current context, for instance?

Not intending any criticism or insult at all, simply thinking about the questions raised and asking...and asking feeling fairly certain that some "bigot Conflag wavers" as well as some "affluent NIMBY libs" populate this very forum.

[Dino Suegiù]

The "box analogy" Alexandera Houchin stated in her Dirty Kanza commentary which Clean39T quoted is indeed a perceptive and useful one.

Interestingly only yesterday I learned that one of the tests on a very basic evaluation for dementia is for the subject to be able to draw lines connecting 8 dots in order to form a cube. A certain person, who cannot be mentioned here but is assuredly a racist, apparently proudly and vociferously claims to have "passed the test with flying colors!!!", thereby "proving" at least 3 things....

[wc1934]

Pretty powerful:

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/kevin-prince-boateng-soccer-racism

[XXtwindad]

[QUOTE=Dino Suegiù;2745752]Could benefit from further specificity: That Confederate flag outside/inside quoted citation needs a more clear definition of the bolded terms "some" and "steep" imo...it reads pretty vague as it is, a lot of territory there. I am fairly confident that the statement is generally true to a degree, in certain places and cases, but perhaps not as universally extreme as it appears to want to imply?

Regarding your "Me personally", don't you think that one could effectively argue that only someone in a safe position of relative privilege could actually take that "I'd rather deal with..." position, that in fact for those actually in the line of constant prejudice and hatred the "bigot that flies that flag proudly" is one far more frightening mother-f@@@er than any "affluent NIMBY lib"? One is often outright bent on destruction, the other more often a sad and frightened hypocrite. Obviously we cannot ask the many anonymous people mis-treated daily who they fear most, so what if we ask Bubba Wallace, or Bubba Wallace's wife and children, et al in the current context, for instance?

Not intending any criticism or insult at all, simply thinking about the questions raised and asking...and asking feeling fairly certain that some "bigot Conflag wavers" as well as some "affluent NIMBY libs" populate this very forum.[/QUOTE

An interesting question. What does more long-term harm? A yahoo with a Confederate flag flying on his bumper, or a supposed "ally" who practices NIMBYism when it comes to equal access to education? My vote would be for the latter.

Put another way: you can’t legislate thought. You can legislate equal access to education.

[skitlets]

An interesting question. What does more long-term harm? A yahoo with a Confederate flag flying on his bumper, or a supposed "ally" who practices NIMBYism when it comes to equal access to education? My vote would be for the latter.

I don't mean this facetiously or to be insulting, and I ask this genuinely: instead of surmising from your own POV, have you asked your BIPOC friends or read about this question from BIPOC activists and scholars? It may help inform your own opinion.

[FlashUNC]

Could benefit from further specificity: That Confederate flag outside/inside quoted citation needs a more clear definition of the bolded terms "some" and "steep" imo...it reads pretty vague as it is, a lot of territory there. I am fairly confident that the statement is generally true to a degree, in certain places and cases, but perhaps not as universally extreme as it appears to want to imply?

Regarding your "Me personally", don't you think that one could effectively argue that only someone in a safe position of relative privilege could actually take that "I'd rather deal with..." position, that in fact for those actually in the line of constant prejudice and hatred the "bigot that flies that flag proudly" is one far more frightening mother-f@@@er than any "affluent NIMBY lib"? One is often outright bent on destruction, the other more often a sad and frightened hypocrite. Obviously we cannot ask the many anonymous people mis-treated daily who they fear most, so what if we ask Bubba Wallace, or Bubba Wallace's wife and children, et al in the current context, for instance?

Not intending any criticism or insult at all, simply thinking about the questions raised and asking...and asking feeling fairly certain that some "bigot Conflag wavers" as well as some "affluent NIMBY libs" populate this very forum.

As true on April 16, 1963, as it is today.

First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.

[XXtwindad]

I don't mean this facetiously or to be insulting, and I ask this genuinely: instead of surmising from your own POV, have you asked your BIPOC friends or read about this question from BIPOC activists and scholars? It may help inform your own opinion.

Had to look “BIPOC” up :) In fact I was discussing that very thing with a bi-racial friend of mine who attends monthly “racial reconciliation” meetings. In addition to verging on self-parody (Berkeley is fantastic for that) she prefers bigotry that’s transparent. But that’s just one person’s opinion.

[skitlets]

Had to look “BIPOC” up :) In fact I was discussing that very thing with a bi-racial friend of mine who attends monthly “racial reconciliation” meetings. In addition to verging on self-parody (Berkeley is fantastic for that) she prefers bigotry that’s transparent. But that’s just one person’s opinion.

That's awesome :)

I agree that it's just one person's opinion, but like the radavist article pointed out, we don't always see all the perspectives. Informing ourselves by seeking out and finding them from the people doing the hard work is really the least we can do.

MLK is always a great start and the above quote on white moderates is still so apt. It's a shame that his calls for non-violence are used by "white moderates" as a weapon against BLM protests. Likely the same type of person who would've hated MLK if he were still alive.

According to an early 1968 Harris Poll, the man whose half-century of martyrdom we celebrate this week died with a public disapproval rating of nearly 75 percent, a figure shocking in its own day and still striking even in today’s highly polarized political climate.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-martin-luther-king-had-75-percent-disapproval-rating-year-he-died-180968664/

[XXtwindad]

That's awesome :)

I agree that it's just one person's opinion, but like the radavist article pointed out, we don't always see all the perspectives. Informing ourselves by seeking out and finding them from the people doing the hard work is really the least we can do.

MLK is always a great start and the above quote on white moderates is still so apt. It's a shame that his calls for non-violence are used by "white moderates" as a weapon against BLM protests. Likely the same type of person who would've hated MLK if he were still alive.



https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-martin-luther-king-had-75-percent-disapproval-rating-year-he-died-180968664/

here's a little kernel of wisdom from the monthly meeting that had me rollicking (my friend knows I love a good story): someone at the meeting mentioned the looting that had occurred at some of the protests. A few other members immediately jumped in and condemned the person, saying that the correct expression was "resdistributive direct action." The person who got chastised profusely and meekly apologized.

It's not looting. Except, of course, when it happens to one of their swanky asses, and then...look out! It's call the cops time! Living in certain zip codes can inoculate you from a lot of reality.

[colker]

A note of curiosity: Trotsky and Lenin discussed monuments which could express injustice in capitalist societies; Trotsky opposed the destruction of any monuments, statues, buildings etc: revolutionaries should deconstruct narratives of opression while leaving History intact.
Trotsky was a true bonafide radical. You won´t accuse the man of being lenient or tolerant.

[Dino Suegiù]

Could benefit from further specificity: That Confederate flag outside/inside quoted citation needs a more clear definition of the bolded terms "some" and "steep" imo...it reads pretty vague as it is, a lot of territory there. I am fairly confident that the statement is generally true to a degree, in certain places and cases, but perhaps not as universally extreme as it appears to want to imply?

Regarding your "Me personally", don't you think that one could effectively argue that only someone in a safe position of relative privilege could actually take that "I'd rather deal with..." position, that in fact for those actually in the line of constant prejudice and hatred the "bigot that flies that flag proudly" is one far more frightening mother-f@@@er than any "affluent NIMBY lib"? One is often outright bent on destruction, the other more often a sad and frightened hypocrite. Obviously we cannot ask the many anonymous people mis-treated daily who they fear most, so what if we ask Bubba Wallace, or Bubba Wallace's wife and children, et al in the current context, for instance?

Not intending any criticism or insult at all, simply thinking about the questions raised and asking...and asking feeling fairly certain that some "bigot Conflag wavers" as well as some "affluent NIMBY libs" populate this very forum.

An interesting question. What does more long-term harm? A yahoo with a Confederate flag flying on his bumper, or a supposed "ally" who practices NIMBYism when it comes to equal access to education? My vote would be for the latter.

Put another way: you can’t legislate thought. You can legislate equal access to education.
Even while completely agreeing with MLK Jr's letter intellectually and emotionally, I'm more afraid psychologically and physically of pre-loaded guns carried by the "yahoo" likes of McMichaels père et fils and best bud Roddie Bryan, Mssrs. Chauvin et cie, or even Sgt. James Crowley when arresting Prof. Henry Louis Gates...etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

So wherein the choice?

Being so relentlessly long-term harmed by both the "yahoo" and the "ally" substantiates that there is not really any lesser between the two evils, vastly different though they may appear or even be, and that in any case a vote between the two is one of the saddest votes ever, which choice might have flustered even Solomon in his wisdom. The terms, the purveyors, and the victims of this debate are not "either/or", but are rather "both/and".

[skitlets]

being so relentlessly long-term harmed by both the "yahoo" and the "ally" substantiates that there is not really any lesser between the two evils, vastly different though they may appear or even be, and that in any case a vote between the two is one of the saddest votes ever, which choice might have flustered even solomon in his wisdom. The terms, the purveyors, and the victims of this debate are not "either/or", but are rather "both/and".

+1

[XXtwindad]

Even while completely agreeing with MLK Jr's letter intellectually and emotionally, I'm more afraid psychologically and physically of pre-loaded guns carried by the "yahoo" likes of McMichaels père et fils and best bud Roddie Bryan, Mssrs. Chauvin et cie, or even Sgt. James Crowley when arresting Prof. Henry Louis Gates...etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

So wherein the choice?

Being so relentlessly long-term harmed by both the "yahoo" and the "ally" substantiates that there is not really any lesser between the two evils, vastly different though they may appear or even be, and that in any case a vote between the two is one of the saddest votes ever, which choice might have flustered even Solomon in his wisdom. The terms, the purveyors, and the victims of this debate are not "either/or", but are rather "both/and".

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/25/opinion/us-coronavirus-protests.html

"The loudest theory of change is coming from the Social Justice movement. This movement emerged from elite universities, and its basic premise is that if you can change the cultural structures you can change society.

Members of this movement pay intense attention to cultural symbols — to language, statues, the names of buildings. They pay enormous attention to repeating certain slogans, such as “defund the police,” which may or may not have anything to do with policy, and to lifting up symbolic gestures, like kneeling before a football game. It’s a very apt method for change in an age of social media because it’s very performative.

The Social Justice activists focus on the cultural levers of power. Their most talked about action is canceling people. Some person, usually mildly progressive, will say something politically “problematic” and his or her job will be terminated. In this way new boundaries are established for what has to be said and what cannot be said.

The core problem is that the Social Justice theory of change doesn’t produce much actual change. Corporations are happy to adopt some woke symbols and hold a few consciousness-raising seminars and go on their merry way."

[colker]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/25/opinion/us-coronavirus-protests.html



The Social Justice activists focus on the cultural levers of power. Their most talked about action is canceling people. Some person, usually mildly progressive, will say something politically “problematic” and his or her job will be terminated. In this way new boundaries are established for what has to be said and what cannot be said.



I find the cancel culture dreadfull. It takes zero guts to cancel anyone. Cancel .. leads to a fantasy world where you abolish language instead of abolish injustice. You don´t change anything but find easy targets to play with.
No wonder it all just gets worse and worse.

[skitlets]

I'm trying to find the Op Ed's writer's source that the Social Justice movement is all about cancel culture, and I'm coming up empty.

[akelman]

I'm trying to think of someone who's less well-positioned to opine about the current moment and movement than David Brooks. Even someone like David Duke would have a more interesting perspective on white supremacy, I suppose.

[barnabyjones]

https://www.city-journal.org/brown-university-letter-racism

"A rebuttal to Brown University’s letter on racism in the United States

I wondered why such a proclamation was necessary. Either it affirmed platitudes to which we can all subscribe, or, more menacingly, it asserted controversial and arguable positions as though they were axiomatic certainties. It trafficked in the social-justice warriors’ pedantic language and sophomoric nostrums. It invoked “race” gratuitously and unreflectively at every turn. It often presumed what remains to be established. It often elided pertinent differences between the many instances cited. It read in part like a loyalty oath. It declares in every paragraph: “We Hold These Truths to Be Self-Evident.”

And just what truths are these? The main one: that racial domination and “white supremacy” define our national existence even now, a century and a half after the end of slavery.

snip

The roster of Brown’s “leaders” who signed this manifesto in lockstep remind me of a Soviet Politburo making some party-line declaration. I can only assume that the point here is to forestall any student protests by declaring the university to be on the Right Side of History.

What I found most alarming, though, is that no voice was given to what one might have thought would be a university’s principal intellectual contribution to the national debate at this critical moment: namely, to affirm the primacy of reason over violence in calibrating our reactions to the supposed “oppression.” Equally troubling were our president’s promises to focus the university’s instructional and research resources on “fighting for social justice” around the world, without any mention of the problematic and ambiguous character of those movements which, over the past two centuries or more, have self-consciously defined themselves in just such terms—from the French and Russian Revolutions through the upheavals of the 1960s.

My bottom line: I’m offended by the letter. It frightens, saddens, and angers me.

Sincerely,

Glenn"

Ironically enough "cancel culture" has origins in historic black protest movements.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/12/30/20879720/what-is-cancel-culture-explained-history-debate

"It’s common to compare cancel culture to “call-out culture” — but its real roots may lie in the civil rights movement."

“While the terminology of cancel culture may be new and most applicable to social media through Black Twitter, in particular, the concept of being canceled is not new to black culture,” Anne Charity Hudley, the chair of linguistics of African America for the University of California Santa Barbara, told Vox. Hudley, who studies black vernacular and the use of language in cultural conversations like this one, described canceling as “a survival skill as old as the Southern black use of the boycott.”

Charity Hudley pointed out that canceling someone is akin to a boycott, but of a person rather than a business. What’s more, it promotes the idea that black people should be empowered to reject the parts of pop culture that spread harmful ideas. “If you don’t have the ability to stop something through political means, what you can do is refuse to participate,” she said.

Thanks to social media, black culture in particular has become more widely recognized as the dominant driving force behind much of pop culture. Platforms like Twitter give a louder collective voice to black citizens and other marginalized groups who have traditionally been shunted to the edges of public conversations, while platforms like YouTube and Netflix help to diversify and expand the types of media and pop culture we consume. "

[FlashUNC]

I'm trying to think of someone who's less well-positioned to opine about the current moment and movement than David Brooks. Even someone like David Duke would have a more interesting perspective on white supremacy, I suppose.

How David Brooks still has a job is beyond me.

[skitlets]

Interesting tidbits from the Vox article:

Charity Hudley pointed out that canceling someone is akin to a boycott, but of a person rather than a business. What’s more, it promotes the idea that black people should be empowered to reject the parts of pop culture that spread harmful ideas. “If you don’t have the ability to stop something through political means, what you can do is refuse to participate,” she said.

“Canceling is a way to acknowledge that you don’t have to have the power to change structural inequality,” Charity Hudley said. “You don’t even have to have the power to change all of public sentiment. But as an individual, you can still have power beyond measure.

Some celebrities, whose crimes have encompassed allegations of rape and sexual assault and became impossible to ignore, like Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby, and Kevin Spacey, have effectively been canceled. Along with Roseanne Barr, who lost her hit TV show after a racist tweet, their offenses were serious enough to irreparably damage their careers, alongside a push to lessen their cultural influence.

“[W]hat people do when they invoke dog whistles like ‘cancel culture’ and ‘culture wars,’” Danielle Butler wrote for the Root in 2018, “is illustrate their discomfort with the kinds of people who now have a voice and their audacity to direct it towards figures with more visibility and power.”

[rain dogs]

I know my feelings about these complaints about "cancel culture" and I'm tip-toeing to not get this thread in trouble. I know the mechanics of who, how and why the people in politics and the media are using "cancel culture" and the dichotomy/polarity/false equivalency many are trying to construct.

To the masses who are getting up in arms about "cancel culture" I would ask... For the hundreds of years, ongoing even today as seen in recent weeks, when intolerant white people have been murdering black people, what are they doing? Is that not a culture of a much more sinister, brutal, and permanent form of life "cancelling?" If cancel culture costs someone their job, what culture is murder? Or the jobs/positions that black/minority individuals are "cancelled" from even being able to attain based on skin color.... that effectively they are not even considered for.... let alone be able to hold them and then lose them.

Maybe we should discuss starting there if you're outraged about white people being subjected to "cancel culture" and crying that it's unfair.

[skitlets]

I know my feelings about these complaints about "cancel culture" and I'm tip-toeing to not get this thread in trouble. I know the mechanics of who, how and why the people in politics and the media are using "cancel culture" and the dichotomy/polarity/false equivalency many are trying to construct.

To the masses who are getting up in arms about "cancel culture" I would ask... For the hundreds of years, ongoing even today as seen in recent weeks, when intolerant white people have been murdering black people, what are they doing? Is that not a culture of a much more sinister, brutal, and permanent form of life "cancelling?" If cancel culture costs someone their job, what culture is murder? Or the jobs/positions that black/minority individuals are "cancelled" from even being able to attain based on skin color.... that effectively they are not even considered for.... let alone be able to hold them and then lose them.

Maybe we should discuss starting there if you're outraged about white people being subjected to "cancel culture" and crying that it's unfair.

Agreed. Danielle Butler (I quoted above) would agree with you that it sounds a lot like a dog whistle and a way to illegitimize people that call for an end to systemic racism. Just another way to say, "I would support you if you didn't protest this way."

[XXtwindad]

I know my feelings about these complaints about "cancel culture" and I'm tip-toeing to not get this thread in trouble. I know the mechanics of who, how and why the people in politics and the media are using "cancel culture" and the dichotomy/polarity/false equivalency many are trying to construct.

To the masses who are getting up in arms about "cancel culture" I would ask... For the hundreds of years, ongoing even today as seen in recent weeks, when intolerant white people have been murdering black people, what are they doing? Is that not a culture of a much more sinister, brutal, and permanent form of life "cancelling?" If cancel culture costs someone their job, what culture is murder? Or the jobs/positions that black/minority individuals are "cancelled" from even being able to attain based on skin color.... that effectively they are not even considered for.... let alone be able to hold them and then lose them.

Maybe we should discuss starting there if you're outraged about white people being subjected to "cancel culture" and crying that it's unfair.

1) I think the article had more to do with the “pageantry” of expression rather than anything else. That’s what struck a chord with me.

2) I’ve mentioned before that I really admire your willingness to express an opinion as a vendor. Not too many vendors are willing to jump into the “fray” for fear of offending people. Velocepede is another. So, kudos.

[Clean39T]

I know my feelings about these complaints about "cancel culture" and I'm tip-toeing to not get this thread in trouble. I know the mechanics of who, how and why the people in politics and the media are using "cancel culture" and the dichotomy/polarity/false equivalency many are trying to construct.

To the masses who are getting up in arms about "cancel culture" I would ask... For the hundreds of years, ongoing even today as seen in recent weeks, when intolerant white people have been murdering black people, what are they doing? Is that not a culture of a much more sinister, brutal, and permanent form of life "cancelling?" If cancel culture costs someone their job, what culture is murder? Or the jobs/positions that black/minority individuals are "cancelled" from even being able to attain based on skin color.... that effectively they are not even considered for.... let alone be able to hold them and then lose them.

Maybe we should discuss starting there if you're outraged about white people being subjected to "cancel culture" and crying that it's unfair.Well said.

I can't recommend enough "White Fragility" by Robin DiAngelo for....well.... everyone. But especially those who feel inconvenienced by the social justice movement underway, or those who feel like it's all too much and we should just stop making such a big deal out of it all.

It isn't. And we shouldn't.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[XXtwindad]

Well said.

I can't recommend enough "White Fragility" by Robin DiAngelo for....well.... everyone. But especially those who feel inconvenienced by the social justice movement underway, or those who feel like it's all too much and we should just stop making such a big deal out of it all.

It isn't. And we shouldn't.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Who said that?

[Dino Suegiù]

I'm trying to find the Op Ed's writer's source that the Social Justice movement is all about cancel culture, and I'm coming up empty.
+1. And in any case his main thesis seems both inaccurate and misguided.
I'm trying to think of someone who's less well-positioned to opine about the current moment and movement than David Brooks.
Certainly there are others but point well taken.

It does baffle that Mr. Brooks attempts to coyly untether "symbolism", and especially "obsessive symbolism", from the "5 Epic Crises" he lists. Forest, look at the trees, man. "Symbolism" is one of the stable coins of the realm in at least 3 of the 5, difficult to disconnect so blithely.

"This is not the time to obsess about symbolism."
It seems in fact as good a time as another, better than most, Mr. Brooks, so why not title the piece, "America Is Facing 6 Epic Crises All at Once", and also address symbolism head-on now, rather than put that subject off for a rainier day down the line?

[Dino Suegiù]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/25/opinion/us-coronavirus-protests.htmlCut and paste "responses" which are not even notated minimally by the cutter/paster's personal opinion or comment are often perplexing. It can be difficult to read intent, then, far too often.

You quoted what I had written and then posted someone else's (also your own?) opinion, in association somehow but to what purpose exactly? Perhaps take a more direct stance, at least here in this thread and context, in being a bit more clear about the intended association that you seem to want to draw?

[Dino Suegiù]

Agreed. Danielle Butler (I quoted above) would agree with you that it sounds a lot like a dog whistle and a way to illegitimize people that call for an end to systemic racism. Just another way to say, "I would support you if you didn't protest this way."
Also agreed.

[XXtwindad]

Cut and paste "responses" which are not even notated minimally by the cutter/paster's personal opinion or comment are often perplexing. It can be difficult to read intent, then, far too often.

You quoted what I had written and then posted someone else's (also your own?) opinion, in association somehow but to what purpose exactly? Perhaps take a more direct stance, at least here in this thread and context, in being a bit more clear about the intended association that you seem to want to draw?

I thought it was pretty clear. Wearing a “Black Lives Matter” tee-shirt or posting some blacked out corporate logo really doesn’t do a damn thing. It’s an easy pass. That’s the “pageantry” of expression I was referring to. The statues is an interesting discussion, but it was locked, so I’ll have to withhold comment.

[Dino Suegiù]

I thought it was pretty clear. Wearing a “Black Lives Matter” tee-shirt or posting some blacked out corporate logo really doesn’t do a damn thing. It’s an easy pass. That’s the “pageantry” of expression I was referring to. The statues is an interesting discussion, but it was locked, so I’ll have to withhold comment.

How could it be "pretty clear" (at least to me) when you:
1) quoted a complete post of mine
and
2) associated it directly with a cut and paste of part of a David Brooks Op/Ed piece, but with no comment of your own
and
3) in addition apparently expect one to make the leap to also include references in threads locked weeks or longer ago?

I'm just not that nimble, man!


PS edit: I agreed and posted weeks ago that imo the BLM t-shirts and black blank squares were/are basically useless.
Essentially as "heartfelt", (in)effective, and superficially self-aggrandizing as George Clooney et al wearing those "Je Suis Charlie" buttons on the Oscars red carpet that year....

[Clean39T]

Who said that?

The editorial 'they' - wasn't trying to call anyone out - just saying 'if you think there isn't a problem - that's a problem' - again, the editorial 'you' not the 'you-you'...

[Clean39T]

I thought it was pretty clear. Wearing a “Black Lives Matter” tee-shirt or posting some blacked out corporate logo really doesn’t do a damn thing. It’s an easy pass. That’s the “pageantry” of expression I was referring to. The statues is an interesting discussion, but it was locked, so I’ll have to withhold comment.

I disagree. Putting up a sign in your yard that says "all are welcome here" means something. Wearing a #BLM t-shirt or doing anything visible and public that says "I see you" means something. Is it enough? Of course not. But it's a start. And any step on the road to a more inclusive society is worth taking - especially when there are people in this country who are actively trying to move it in the other direction.

[FlashUNC]

I thought it was pretty clear. Wearing a “Black Lives Matter” tee-shirt or posting some blacked out corporate logo really doesn’t do a damn thing. It’s an easy pass. That’s the “pageantry” of expression I was referring to. The statues is an interesting discussion, but it was locked, so I’ll have to withhold comment.

By the same logic, the guys dressing up in Hoods and burning crosses aren't doing "a damn thing."

Visibility matters to a cause, whatever it may be.

[Dino Suegiù]

By the same logic, the guys dressing up in Hoods and burning crosses aren't doing "a damn thing."

Visibility matters to a cause, whatever it may be.

By some small and literal token perhaps true...however:
not to speak directly for XXtwindad but that seems a very harsh and unfair analogy, one I do not think he would ever draw.

One group (hoods and burning crosses) in fact is always actively and literally "doing a damned [and heinous] thing", by intending and often exercising specific and direct harm to others, whereas the other (BLM t-shirts/placards/black squares/etc) is typically not intending any such damage at all.

The extreme specificity of active, consistent, focused, and secretive organized c(K)lan-group hatred is not at all equally mirrored in more disparate personal and/or corporate symbolic passive behavior ranging from band-wagon insouciance to the genuine well-intentioned first steps to which Clean39T alludes to loud leadership in protesting openly, publicly, and peacefully.

Symbolic t-shirts maybe "equal" hoods to some (and, if so, wow...), but the bridge to burning crosses is definitely one too far, imo.

[akelman]

I disagree. Putting up a sign in your yard that says "all are welcome here" means something. Wearing a #BLM t-shirt or doing anything visible and public that says "I see you" means something. Is it enough? Of course not. But it's a start. And any step on the road to a more inclusive society is worth taking - especially when there are people in this country who are actively trying to move it in the other direction.

Agreed. People mock the idea of safe spaces. Fine. But making sure that members of out groups know that a safe is space for them is an important part of building an inclusive community. The flipside is that tolerating bigotry—whether defenses of the cop who killed Rayshard Brooks, antisemitic conspiracy theories, or sexist garbage—sends a message as well and becomes a kind of wall that keeps certain kinds of people out.

[XXtwindad]

By some small and literal token perhaps true...however:
not to speak directly for XXtwindad but that seems a very harsh and unfair analogy, one I do not think he would ever draw.

One group (hoods and burning crosses) in fact is always actively and literally "doing a damned [and heinous] thing", by intending and often exercising specific and direct harm to others, whereas the other (BLM t-shirts/placards/black squares/etc) is typically not intending any such damage at all.

The extreme specificity of active, consistent, focused, and secretive organized c(K)lan-group hatred is not at all equally mirrored in more disparate personal and/or corporate symbolic passive behavior ranging from band-wagon insouciance to the genuine well-intentioned first steps to which Clean39T alludes to loud leadership in protesting openly, publicly, and peacefully.

Symbolic t-shirts maybe "equal" hoods to some (and, if so, wow...), but the bridge to burning crosses is definitely one too far, imo.

Haha. Yeah, that was a bit of a stretch. But I always enjoy the "hyperbole overdrive." :)

[XXtwindad]

Agreed. People mock the idea of safe spaces. Fine. But making sure that members of out groups know that a safe is space for them is an important part of building an inclusive community. The flipside is that tolerating bigotry—whether defenses of the cop who killed Rayshard Brooks, antisemitic conspiracy theories, or sexist garbage—sends a message as well and becomes a kind of wall that keeps certain kinds of people out.

Well, yeah. You think the presence of "all are welcome" or "Black Lives Matter" window dressing makes a Black male feel safe in an affluent neighborhood also populated by "neighborhood watch" signs? Is that what you mean by "safe space?" Much better than swastikas or Confederate flags, but, once again, some of us fly the flags on the outside, and some of us wear it on the inside.

I just don't go in for empty pageantry. It often seems like a way to say "look at me...I'm woke/an "ally"/read the latest tome on racial equality, etc... So much sound and fury.

I would never wear a "Black Lives Matter" tee. It just wouldn't feel right. I have friends across the racial spectrum, and I talk with them about issues, but as I've never really done anything significant to advance the cause, it just seems like empty sloganeering.

It's also really not that bold of a stance here in the Bay Area. But I'll tell you what. You really want to go out on a limb, I'll join you in the Deep South, right smack dab in the middle of the Bible Belt. We'll wear a couple of "Atheist Vegans against football" tee-shirts. That's much more of a stance.

[pdmtong]

Well, yeah. You think the presence of "all are welcome" or "Black Lives Matter" window dressing makes a Black male feel safe in an affluent neighborhood also populated by "neighborhood watch" signs? Is that what you mean by "safe space?" Much better than swastikas or Confederate flags, but, once again, some of us fly the flags on the outside, and some of us wear it on the inside.

I just don't go in for empty pageantry. It often seems like a way to say "look at me...I'm woke/an "ally"/read the latest tome on racial equality, etc... So much sound and fury.

I would never wear a "Black Lives Matter" tee. It just wouldn't feel right. I have friends across the racial spectrum, and I talk with them about issues, but as I've never really done anything significant to advance the cause, it just seems like empty sloganeering.

It's also really not that bold of a stance here in the Bay Area. But I'll tell you what. You really want to go out on a limb, I'll join you in the Deep South, right smack dab in the middle of the Bible Belt. We'll wear a couple of "Atheist Vegans against football" tee-shirts. That's much more of a stance.

> That's your choice and belief. Do you think everyone wearing BLM or supports the BLM cause is insincere and full of "empty pageantry"?

> Berkeley or Oakland (where I was born) and the East Bay is not the same as here on the mid-Peninsula where outside of EPA diversity means Indian software engineers. In fact I still run into people who don't seem to have gotten used to Asians (like myself) who were born here and speak English without an accent.

> so yea, wearing a BLM shirt or posting a sign is a start.

[akelman]

Let's ask all the black people on the site what they think of BLM signs or t-shirts. Empty pageantry? Or well-intended symbol of a relatively inclusive community?

waits

waits some more

keeps waiting

I wonder why so few black people hang out at this site/take part in this sport! It's impossible to imagine why they wouldn't feel more comfortable here!

[Spdntrxi]

Let's ask all the black people on the site what they think of BLM signs or t-shirts. Empty pageantry? Or well-intended symbol of a relatively inclusive community?

waits

waits some more

keeps waiting

I wonder why so few black people hang out at this site/take part in this sport! It's impossible to imagine why they wouldn't feel more comfortable here!

that's not anyone's fault here.... never was or will be.

[XXtwindad]

Let's ask all the black people on the site what they think of BLM signs or t-shirts. Empty pageantry? Or well-intended symbol of a relatively inclusive community?

waits

waits some more

keeps waiting

I wonder why so few black people hang out at this site/take part in this sport! It's impossible to imagine why they wouldn't feel more comfortable here!

Oh, please. What a totally reductive banal response. Said what I had to say. No need to go back and forth with you, lest the thread get locked.

[akelman]

Oh, please.

What part aren't you getting? Symbols matter to people. Symbols of inclusivity and shared values matter a lot to people. Sneering at those same symbols? People notice. Especially people who are members of out groups and who might be anxious about whether a space is safe for them.