Move over marine transmission oil and wax...

[joosttx]

It is finally here.

GRAPHEN lube for your chain....

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50020503801_6757de9712.jpg

Who is gonna try it? It is only $145.95 a bottle.


https://absoluteblack.cc/graphenlube-worlds-best-chain-lubricant-coating/

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50020771212_93efef5653.jpg

[nmrt]

It seems in bike related goods, the price ceiling is never reached. First, the UFO and now AB Graphene! what career should be in to afford this?

[dbnm]

April Fools?

[AngryScientist]

i have been super-secret beta testing it for the last month.

it is superb. in every regard.

i havent put it on my chain yet - but my mustache is performing at the highest level ever :)

[vincenz]

After you do the chain, don’t forget to spritz your inner wrists and neck.

[joosttx]

After you do the chain, don’t forget to spritz your inner wrists and neck.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50020053663_b5b087dd1b_w.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50020503801_6757de9712_w.jpg

[Spdntrxi]

and I thought ceramicspeed was expensive

[weisan]

Is there a group buy option?

I just need a tiny little genie bottle.

[skitlets]

Is there a group buy option?

I just need a tiny little genie bottle.

There's a 14ml option for $15. Is that enough for 1 application?

[Steve in SLO]

Hmmm...maybe I’ll throw some briquet dust into my homebrew chain lube.

[dbnm]

try this out
https://www.graphenoil.com/product-page/all-purpose-lubricant-4oz

[darkmother]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50020053663_b5b087dd1b_w.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50020503801_6757de9712_w.jpg

You just gave me the most hellish flashbacks from high school.

[jpritchet74]

I'll stick with my crock pot full of wax, or the Silca stuff

[rnhood]

Only a fool would fall for it.

[Black Dog]

It’s good. But it still does not come close to the friction reduction of snake oil.

[donevwil]

I'll wait for the Rapha or Chris King limited edition version.

[weiwentg]

This is actually a drip wax lube, like Silca's new stuff, Squirt, and Smoove. I think the difference is that Absolute Black uses graphene particles, whereas Molten Speed Wax uses PTFE and molybdenum disulfide, and Silca uses tungsten disulfide. I'm not sure what Squirt and Smoove use.

I posted elsewhere that I jumped on Silca's new lube because I think it's likely that Josh has put a lot of thought and expertise into his product. I'm less likely to jump on Absolute Black's stuff because AFAIK, they only made chainrings before this.

One thing that worries me a bit is that just before they launched this, Adam Kerin posted on Facebook that he saw something fishy in the test data. I can't remember all the specifics, but if you look at the curve for Muc Off Nano, it starts low, then it goes up, then down, then up again. That really does seem strange. I remember that Kerin thought that Squirt and Smoove might be expected to see U-shaped friction and wear curves, because those lubes often take a while to penetrate right down to the pins. The curve for Muc Off Nano is a bit beyond explanation. I think he may have questioned the overall test protocol based on that. That said, he later admitted that at least part of his critique was based on a prototype version of Absolute Black's lube, not on the commercially released stuff.

Either way, I have some lingering doubts about this. One thing I'd love to know is this: are graphene particles are that good as a friction modifier? From Josh Poertner's YouTube vids, I'm getting the sense that friction modifiers are there to smooth out all the microscopic surface irregularities in the metal of your chain. You want a particle that's on the same scale as the impurities. Josh claimed that MoS2 particles were simply a bit bigger than the actual irregularities, whereas WS2 was more on the same scale. Is it plausible that graphene particles are that much better at filling those gaps in?

[charliedid]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50020053663_b5b087dd1b_w.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50020503801_6757de9712_w.jpg

Smells like high school

[dbnm]

I'd love to see a real review of the Silca stuff.

[tuxbailey]

So I have a brand new bottle of NFS that I was thinking about offering in the classifieds as I will never finish the first bottle.

I better back off as I don't see how I can compete with such high class stuff.

Update: it is sold.

https://tuxbailey.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-10/p3914695525-4.jpg

[IJWS]

I'd love to see a real review of the Silca stuff.

we did it. Supersonic cleaned my gf's chain with well over 4k miles, dunk in wax, shake, hang dry. The chain doesn't deserve this kind of attention but either way, it stays very clean--not easy with all the gunk in L.A. and needs an on-bike top-off once a week to stay quiet but it is quiet. It works, but I can't really recommend or not in this company.

[Beanbiken]

I’m trying to avoid my chains going Absolute Black..... hot wax is me:)

[Steve in SLO]

So I have a brand new bottle of NFS that I was thinking about offering in the classifieds as I will never finish the first bottle.

I better back off as I don't see how I can compete with such high class stuff.

https://tuxbailey.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-10/p3914695525-4.jpg

It's basically worthless. Send it to me and I'll dispose of it for you.

[joshatsilca]

This is actually a drip wax lube, like Silca's new stuff, Squirt, and Smoove. I think the difference is that Absolute Black uses graphene particles, whereas Molten Speed Wax uses PTFE and molybdenum disulfide, and Silca uses tungsten disulfide. I'm not sure what Squirt and Smoove use.
Either way, I have some lingering doubts about this. One thing I'd love to know is this: are graphene particles are that good as a friction modifier? From Josh Poertner's YouTube vids, I'm getting the sense that friction modifiers are there to smooth out all the microscopic surface irregularities in the metal of your chain. You want a particle that's on the same scale as the impurities. Josh claimed that MoS2 particles were simply a bit bigger than the actual irregularities, whereas WS2 was more on the same scale. Is it plausible that graphene particles are that much better at filling those gaps in?

I do not have a sample of the AB lube yet, but from the description and data, they appear to be using almost identically the same base wax methodology that we are using in SSCL, which is not surprising as there have been a few hundred bottles of various forms of SSCL floating around the ProTour for the last 4 years or so!

As you may or may not know if you listen to our podcast, the other half of SILCA is a company called Aeromind which does performance consulting and such for the pro peloton.. this is where SSCL came from, but as the teams and riders pay for these services, we give them 2 year exclusivity before turning anything into a product or teaching others, sharing data, etc.. So yes, we have been playing with graphene for over a year and it's pretty neat stuff when you get the right size and form of it, and while it has proven to be worth a tenth of a watt or so over WS2 in the SSCL, that only puts it on par with the hot melt version of SSCL with WS2. In addition we haven't experienced anything near the longevity claims made by the AB lube when using graphene over WS2 in any of our formulations, but who knows, they very well could have stumbled onto something that we have not.

The problem with these high zoot additives comes down to, cost and quantity, but really, it's also the color. The color problem is true of Tungsten Disulfide as well, we've experimented with some pretty high concentrations of WS2 and only found the slightest benefits (~0.05w), but the wax ends up black or near black and the riders and mechanics really just don't like that!! With Absolute Black's name being what it is, maybe they will have better luck pulling it off! At least I will say that for the price, they are likely using enough graphene to actually be doing something.

And yes, I am totally jealous of their packaging.. it's a stunning display of branding and design.. just looks like $$. Though it also seems a bit misleading, as you said above, 'it is a drip lube', but if you watch the video on using it, it is not. The lube comes with a baggy that you put the chain in and then fill with the lube to immerse the chain. My guess here is that they started out on the one path and realized that immersion works better.. we do something similar offering an immersion jar of lube as well as a drip bottle.

Josh

[cgates66]

I feel like someone should put gold dust in a lube, create some dubious scientific claims, and offer it for $500/bottle. The Goldschlager I mean Gold Standard of chain care. In fact, that's the brand: Gold Standard.

[charliedid]

What is WS2?

Thanks

[dancinkozmo]

What is WS2?

Thanks

Wombat Scrotum No. 2

[charliedid]

Wombat Scrotum No. 2

LOL I was thinking Waxy Stuff

[Black Dog]

What is WS2?

Thanks

Tungsten disulphide.

WS2

Technically it is just called Tungsten sulphide.

[charliedid]

Tungsten disulphide.

WS2

I see...slippery stuff.

Thanks

[oldpotatoe]

Slackers...only $150...and you can cook with it too, along with your Italian only, chain.

[absoluteBLACK.]

I do not have a sample of the AB lube yet, but from the description and data, they appear to be using almost identically the same base wax methodology that we are using in SSCL, which is not surprising as there have been a few hundred bottles of various forms of SSCL floating around the ProTour for the last 4 years or so!

As you may or may not know if you listen to our podcast, the other half of SILCA is a company called Aeromind which does performance consulting and such for the pro peloton.. this is where SSCL came from, but as the teams and riders pay for these services, we give them 2 year exclusivity before turning anything into a product or teaching others, sharing data, etc.. So yes, we have been playing with graphene for over a year and it's pretty neat stuff when you get the right size and form of it, and while it has proven to be worth a tenth of a watt or so over WS2 in the SSCL, that only puts it on par with the hot melt version of SSCL with WS2. In addition we haven't experienced anything near the longevity claims made by the AB lube when using graphene over WS2 in any of our formulations, but who knows, they very well could have stumbled onto something that we have not.

The problem with these high zoot additives comes down to, cost and quantity, but really, it's also the color. The color problem is true of Tungsten Disulfide as well, we've experimented with some pretty high concentrations of WS2 and only found the slightest benefits (~0.05w), but the wax ends up black or near black and the riders and mechanics really just don't like that!! With Absolute Black's name being what it is, maybe they will have better luck pulling it off! At least I will say that for the price, they are likely using enough graphene to actually be doing something.

And yes, I am totally jealous of their packaging.. it's a stunning display of branding and design.. just looks like $$. Though it also seems a bit misleading, as you said above, 'it is a drip lube', but if you watch the video on using it, it is not. The lube comes with a baggy that you put the chain in and then fill with the lube to immerse the chain. My guess here is that they started out on the one path and realized that immersion works better.. we do something similar offering an immersion jar of lube as well as a drip bottle.

Josh

Hi,
absoluteBLACK here. We have noticed Josh comment and would like to put few things straight for the record.


1. We do not use the same wax emulsion as Josh suggests. According to Silca website they use powdered waxes and mild alcohol carrier. This is completely different to what we do. We use a very advanced technique of mixing molten composition of hydrocarbons with hot water and using a special combination of substances to create a stable emulsion in room temperature with extremely small droplets of hydrocarbon suspended in water. This is an art on its own and gives the results like we claim. It's a very complex topic and we are not willing to disclose too much, but emulsion done this way has a completely different properties than just wax powder suspended in alcohol. We do not use alcohol as it's not needed here.
So Josh, you just wrote above you have not seen our product, but you were happy to insinuate that it's "almost identically the same base wax methodology" ??


2. Josh, You suggested that there were few hundred bottles of your prototype in the Pro Tour peloton. This is interesting as we cooperate with almost half of all the Pro Tour Teams and we know full history of lubricants they used in past 2 seasons. At no point your name was mentioned.

3. You also suggest, if I understand correctly, that you give teams two years of exclusivity before turning anything into commercial product available for everyone. If this is a correct statement and you say that your lube was used by pro tour teams for the last year at minimum then you just broke UCI rules. According to the rules of UCI all the products that are used in Pro Racing (or any sanctioned UCI race) needs to be publicly available for sale at the time of race (or close to this time if UCI has been notified officially). Not a single team will use a product that is not available on the market during races as if caught on it all the victories would be stripped. So not only your public statement would put those teams at risk, but also means you have no understanding of the UCI regulated world if you keep saying things like that in public space. Moreover if you claim you are providing services for the Pro Tour Teams you would be required to show up on the training Camps in Spain in December. All the teams train in very close proximity to each other and most sleep in same hotels. Perhaps we didnt notice you...

Or perhaps you say "Pro Tour" (teams) and mean something else? like USA continental teams.


4. You suggest you have tested Graphene. So let me cite you from your launch video: " Tungsten Disulfide... which is super fine molecule that is highly lubricious, more so than Moly, PROBABLY more so than graphene. It's hard to get enough graphene to really know what's in there..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EECZB3IGV4 (watch from 0:47)

I would say based on your statement at the launch of your product, that you have not tested graphene yet. If you would really test it a year ago you would most likely have launched graphene lube not Tungsten disulfide lube. In addition, even if you decided to use WS2 you would by now be able to produce graphs how WS2 is (I am citing you from above) only " worth a tenth of a watt or so over WS2" . If that would be true you would be promoting it everywhere. But you have no independent or even self produced real friction or longevity data on the lube itself.


5. And here comes the true problem. You are showing a graph on your website with various powders and their coefficient of friction. The problem is that you forgot to write that WS2 exhibits such a low friction ONLY in high vacuum or dry atmosphere like dry Nitrogen gas. (Same applies to Molybdenum disulfide - moly) At the second you let the normal humid air in (Air we breathe) the coefficient of friction is much much higher.

I allow myself to cite here a book that was written by 3 USA University editors just in case we have different books in Europe:)
Book name " Self-Lubricating Composites" published by Springer - easy to find in Google books.
Page 21:
“ Both MoS2 and WS2 (Tungsted disulfide) coatings exhibit extremely low friction coefficients (u~ 0/05 or less) and long wear life (several million sliding cycles) when employed in either DRY inert gas or in ultrahigh vacuum such that the coatings do not oxidize and/or react with water vapor, thereby preserving their intrinsic solid lubrication. However, when sliding in humid air, higher friction coefficients (0.15-0.2) and extremely short wear life (typically less than a few thousand cycles) result, which is likely due to dangling or unsaturated bonds on theendge of basal planes reacting with moisture and oxygen in the environment to form tribooxidation products such as MoO3 and WO3”

For those who are not physicists. "Dry inert gas" means for example dry pure nitrogen gas or argon (no water vapor). Which is not our regular air. "Humid air" means our regular air with any % of humidity.
"dry desert air" is also humid to be clear in this context as there is always some water in the air.

The reason most companies avoid using MoS2 or WS2 in humid air applications is because those substances are pointless in regular humid air (our normal atmospheric air) They not only have similar friction to other substances like PTFE but also extremely short life. This is why Teflon particles were used a lot because they also have relatively low friction but long life.
Graphene on the other hand has very low friction in humid air and also possesses extreme durability among other great properties.

This I hope clarifies everything

[AngryScientist]

Thanks for chiming in and adding to the conversation AB. Always good and welcome to get information straight from the source and not make speculations. Interesting reading!

[dancinkozmo]

well...im sold!
for $150 this product is a steal !!!

[absoluteBLACK.]

well...im sold!
for $150 this product is a steal !!!

We understand that the price seems relatively high, but this is the Ultimate lubricant made for Pro Tour teams to help them save over 7W or 1.2kg/2.68lbs of force per every pedal stroke.

Price at this level really doesn’t matter and all who race know it well. Because to gain similar amount of power to what we claim with the lube, usually requires top end wheels, aero frame, best tires and list goes on. But once you have all of this, there is not much more you can do. Now you can with our lube. This gain is huge at such level. So in this sense we are selling such a big power gain for pennies.

It’s not a lube for everyone. It’s a lubricant for people who perfectly understand that they have depleted all the other tuning options already and this is another level.

[dbnm]

MrBLACK,
thanks for coming here and adding some info about your product.




We understand that the price seems relatively high, but this is the Ultimate lubricant made for Pro Tour teams to help them save over 7W or 1.2kg/2.68lbs of force per every pedal stroke.

Price at this level really doesn’t matter and all who race know it well. Because to gain similar amount of power to what we claim with the lube, usually requires top end wheels, aero frame, best tires and list goes on. But once you have all of this, there is not much more you can do. Now you can with our lube. This gain is huge at such level. So in this sense we are selling such a big power gain for pennies.

It’s not a lube for everyone. It’s a lubricant for people who perfectly understand that they have depleted all the other tuning options already and this is another level.

[dancinkozmo]

We understand that the price seems relatively high, but this is the Ultimate lubricant made for Pro Tour teams to help them save over 7W or 1.2kg/2.68lbs of force per every pedal stroke.

Price at this level really doesn’t matter and all who race know it well. Because to gain similar amount of power to what we claim with the lube, usually requires top end wheels, aero frame, best tires and list goes on. But once you have all of this, there is not much more you can do. Now you can with our lube. This gain is huge at such level. So in this sense we are selling such a big power gain for pennies.

It’s not a lube for everyone. It’s a lubricant for people who perfectly understand that they have depleted all the other tuning options already and this is another level.

IMHO with all the crap going on right now anyone who spends $150 on a teeny bottle of chain lube should be ashamed of themselves.
im sure you'll sell cases of the stuff

[AngryScientist]

IMHO with all the crap going on right now anyone who spends $150 on a teeny bottle of chain lube should be ashamed of themselves.
im sure you'll sell cases of the stuff

IMO, this is uncalled for.

Rude, really.

[Blown Reek]

IMHO with all the crap going on right now anyone who spends $150 on a teeny bottle of chain lube should be ashamed of themselves.

Thank you for being the moral compass of this forum. It's chain lube, not a blood diamond. Let them charge what they will, and let those who buy it use it.

[oldpotatoe]

Absolute BLACK and Silca
This I hope clarifies everything

maybe but yikes...begs way more questions than answers..:eek:

[m_sasso]

Subscribing to thread, :fight:

My first questions for AB, if you are utilizing H2O as a carrier, how or why is the lube not dramatically degraded in wet conditions?

2. Taken from your web site "The Ultimate lubricant made for Winners. GRAPHENlube – World’s first hydrocarbon-based (wax) chain lubricant containing Graphene. It exhibits extraordinary durability at single application whilst maintaining impressively low friction for a prolonged period of time in both wet and dry conditions. It’s everything you can really wish for in lubrication. Up to 1800km on single application (dry conditions), 3-10W savings over other lubes. "The Ultimate" series is only available here on our website."
You claim to not be using wax yet your web site description specifically uses the word "wax", which is it?

3. "3 -10W savings" per what?

4. "save over 7W or 1.2kg/2.68lbs of force per every pedal stroke" this certainly adds up to more than "3-10W"?

Busting chops, a lot of members will let you know I am good for that, however I am not selling anything, so let's have a civil discussion?

[tuxbailey]

:p

A forum member just bought it. Stealth classified ad here :)

It's basically worthless. Send it to me and I'll dispose of it for you.

[joshatsilca]

First of all, wow.. clearly struck a nerve and led you down a rabbit hole spending hours watching videos and doing research finding links, and flipping through textbooks, so sorry for that! I certainly thought my post was giving you guys a ton of credit here, but clearly I have offended and I'm sorry for that.

In order of your points:
1. So sorry for insinuating it to be similar when I truly haven't seen it. All I know is that you guys are using all the same words as my supplier doing our emulsion.. and I long ago stopped talking like that in marketing... but if you replace my word 'wax' with your word 'hydrocarbon' and your phrase 'extremely small hydrocarbon droplets' with my phrase 'micro-scale wax powder' and we have to admit that we're mostly talking about the same stuff I'm just using more direct language. And we are also using water as our primary emulsifying agent and have added an alcohol to accelerate drying time. Essentially from my reading of your process any my own, I'd say we are both making Mayonnaise, so while the final product from 2 different chefs will have 2 different recipes, taste different, texture different, etc, but the methodology here is still mayonnaise, while products like Squirt are more of a béarnaise, etc.. I certainly didn't meant this to be offensive, I think I have a reputation in this industry of being very open and candid as well as friendly with competitive companies, so certainly I was just giving an opinion based on your launch materials as you are giving yours about mine.. and of course neither of us told the whole story, so there's some guessing on both sides.

2 and 3: Having been the technical committee chairman for the WFSGI for 2 years, working as a liaison between the UCI and the industry to navigate the rider positioning debacle of 2013, helping to negotiate the allowance of disc brakes into the peloton and battling the sticker licensing scheme imposed by the UCI on frames and wheels on behalf of the industry and walking hour record bike tech through the UCI for a handful of recent record breakers, I have a pretty solid understanding of the issues you bring up. Yet, we continue to find (and use) tires you can't buy, aero bars you can't buy, chain treatments, you can't buy, etc in the peloton because this is what racing and improving the breed is all about. Similarly I would hope that the teams you work with have been using your product in racing as it certainly seems implied in your launch materials. If not, I'd say that's a shame as there is no UCI inspection for chain lube and quite frankly, it's all they can do to check that frames are all stickered properly and positions aren't outside the rules. The UCI also has a healthy time allowance for products coming to market after their first use but that's another story.

I also believe that our ProTour credibility is pretty self evident, but you mostly find us on wind tunnel trips, velodrome testing, pre-race recon days and most importantly, service course visits, and similarly I haven't run into you either..


4. I don't typically launch a product by talking about future versions of that product, just as you aren't talking about the second gen of this lube that you are working on.. As I stated originally, we aren't using graphene at this point because it's flipping expensive and we just haven't seen much benefit to it, but as I stated, perhaps your team has found something that we haven't which would be super exciting, or maybe you are using way more of it (made some of this last night actually..). I look forward to buying some of your lube and testing it, graphene is certainly the most exciting things in material science right now and I have no doubt it will ultimately revolutionize the friction reduction category based on research papers and manufacturers claims.. I just stated that I hadn't had that experience with it yet..clearly with your focus on 'proprietary' methods and materials you must have some secret source, size, morphology or percentage load of graphene that makes your mayonnaise better than all the others, yet you seem to indicate that graphene generically is so incredible that we would have been blown away had we tested any of it? Could it be that simple? Can't imagine that it is.


5. Yes, we show a graph of dry powder lubricant Cf values, yet we can also find dozens of research papers documenting the improvements in friction when comparing these materials as additives to oil or wax based lubricants.. it was this research that led our supplier to start custom blending WS2 and other additives into oils and greases for Indy Car teams here in the US and they currently custom formulate for over 80% of top teams in Indy and NASCAR.. so this is extremely established science, even if our friends in F1 might find it to be too unsophisticated and affordable, it certainly is widely accepted and proven. So, while you could argue that use of dry powder friction values might be misleading, I'd argue that it's no moreso misleading than you linking this paper comparing these materials used as dry film coatings in metal/metal contact in the presence of gases rather than as additives used in oil or wax, where they are naturally insulated from exposure to atmospheric gasses, that certainly isn't representative either and is probably less representative than what we published... Maybe this topic has exposed some shame on both of us.

Ultimately, I'm super happy for you guys, your product looks amazing and is getting tons of press, it is clearly intended and priced to be in a different league from what we have done and I can only assume and hope that it outperforms our product (which I offered credit for in my original post), and it should outperform us on all fronts for 6x the cost, just as we outperform our benchmark products which we are 2x the cost of. I'm also happy that of all the million lubes out there, our little project seems to be your nearest competitor, something you should embrace as if your stuff does work as well as it should, then you're going to have everybody and their brother rushing to come play in your sandbox.. whereas right now, it's just you and me, and our lube is a side project to commercialize something I've been selling to pro teams that I've been home brewing with some racecar guys. Just wait till the big companies with the big budgets show up, it's a lot less fun then.

Sincerely
Josh

[sg8357]

We need a musical break after that exchange.....

Pirelli's Miracle Elixir


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jAvUNwaXyE

[oldpotatoe]

Where’s that gauntlet?? Even if I understood only about half of either epitaph.
I call the first round a draw... bing! Round 2 “lets get ready to rumble!!!”,with thanks to Michael Buffer. :)

[absoluteBLACK.]

Subscribing to thread, :fight:

My first questions for AB, if you are utilizing H2O as a carrier, how or why is the lube not dramatically degraded in wet conditions?

2. Taken from your web site "The Ultimate lubricant made for Winners. GRAPHENlube – World’s first hydrocarbon-based (wax) chain lubricant containing Graphene. It exhibits extraordinary durability at single application whilst maintaining impressively low friction for a prolonged period of time in both wet and dry conditions. It’s everything you can really wish for in lubrication. Up to 1800km on single application (dry conditions), 3-10W savings over other lubes. "The Ultimate" series is only available here on our website."
You claim to not be using wax yet your web site description specifically uses the word "wax", which is it?

3. "3 -10W savings" per what?

4. "save over 7W or 1.2kg/2.68lbs of force per every pedal stroke" this certainly adds up to more than "3-10W"?

Busting chops, a lot of members will let you know I am good for that, however I am not selling anything, so let's have a civil discussion?


Hi,
Let me reply in points so it will be easier to relate to your questions.

1. Water is not really a carrier in this sense. It's an emulsion where water helps to make those "waxes" liquid. You need to let the emulsion dry (2-12h) on the chain and then ride it. Once it's dry it has an almost black appearance and is of thick paste like consistence. It never fully dries to make it solid like a candle wax, so doesn't flake like crock pot waxes and doesnt wear out so fast. It's hydrophobic so after drying doesn't interact with water at all. You cant wash it out by riding in the rain or hosing the chain with water. But you cold remove some of it "mechanically" by power washer directly to the chain.

2. we use a mixture of hydrocarbons, some of them can be called waxes. But we will not disclose what that is.

3. This is the difference you can gain from for example shimano chain out of the box or any used chain lubed with any oil. Have a look at our website on first graph. This is a saving over anything else you use at a given distance. This is why Pro Tour teams are eager to use it. As it's essentially free power you gain at a rear wheel. We are minimizing the loss compared to other lubes. If lube A generates 10W loss and we can get down to 5W with our lube, it's 5W for free at exact same power output, that your power meter shows you . As the loss/gain you cant see is at the rear wheel.


4. This is a bit out of context. If you watch the video provided above that sentence where we actually compare another lube to ours you will understand where this figure comes from. For convenience I will place the link here. It's just a simple test you can repeat at home with regular power meter to see the difference. Yes, we use very fancy measuring equipment (special force pedals) but it's possible to do the same with crank based pm.

https://vimeo.com/429306811

[m_sasso]

Hello AB,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions appreciated and thanks much for bringing the temperature down a bit.

I have not had any personal contact with Josh, likely my missing out, he seams like a pretty reasonable guy to communicate, exchange ideas and share knowledge with. Hopefully you guys can get past your differences the world has enough polarizing activities currently going on and two communicating together is almost always going to top two individual pursuits working against each other.

Thanks again!

[absoluteBLACK.]

First of all, wow.. clearly struck a nerve and led you down a rabbit hole spending hours watching videos and doing research finding links, and flipping through textbooks, so sorry for that! I certainly thought my post was giving you guys a ton of credit here, but clearly I have offended and I'm sorry for that.

In order of your points:
1. So sorry for insinuating it to be similar when I truly haven't seen it. All I know is that you guys are using all the same words as my supplier doing our emulsion.. and I long ago stopped talking like that in marketing... but if you replace my word 'wax' with your word 'hydrocarbon' and your phrase 'extremely small hydrocarbon droplets' with my phrase 'micro-scale wax powder' and we have to admit that we're mostly talking about the same stuff I'm just using more direct language. And we are also using water as our primary emulsifying agent and have added an alcohol to accelerate drying time. Essentially from my reading of your process any my own, I'd say we are both making Mayonnaise, so while the final product from 2 different chefs will have 2 different recipes, taste different, texture different, etc, but the methodology here is still mayonnaise, while products like Squirt are more of a béarnaise, etc.. I certainly didn't meant this to be offensive, I think I have a reputation in this industry of being very open and candid as well as friendly with competitive companies, so certainly I was just giving an opinion based on your launch materials as you are giving yours about mine.. and of course neither of us told the whole story, so there's some guessing on both sides.

2 and 3: Having been the technical committee chairman for the WFSGI for 2 years, working as a liaison between the UCI and the industry to navigate the rider positioning debacle of 2013, helping to negotiate the allowance of disc brakes into the peloton and battling the sticker licensing scheme imposed by the UCI on frames and wheels on behalf of the industry and walking hour record bike tech through the UCI for a handful of recent record breakers, I have a pretty solid understanding of the issues you bring up. Yet, we continue to find (and use) tires you can't buy, aero bars you can't buy, chain treatments, you can't buy, etc in the peloton because this is what racing and improving the breed is all about. Similarly I would hope that the teams you work with have been using your product in racing as it certainly seems implied in your launch materials. If not, I'd say that's a shame as there is no UCI inspection for chain lube and quite frankly, it's all they can do to check that frames are all stickered properly and positions aren't outside the rules. The UCI also has a healthy time allowance for products coming to market after their first use but that's another story.

I also believe that our ProTour credibility is pretty self evident, but you mostly find us on wind tunnel trips, velodrome testing, pre-race recon days and most importantly, service course visits, and similarly I haven't run into you either..


4. I don't typically launch a product by talking about future versions of that product, just as you aren't talking about the second gen of this lube that you are working on.. As I stated originally, we aren't using graphene at this point because it's flipping expensive and we just haven't seen much benefit to it, but as I stated, perhaps your team has found something that we haven't which would be super exciting, or maybe you are using way more of it (made some of this last night actually..). I look forward to buying some of your lube and testing it, graphene is certainly the most exciting things in material science right now and I have no doubt it will ultimately revolutionize the friction reduction category based on research papers and manufacturers claims.. I just stated that I hadn't had that experience with it yet..clearly with your focus on 'proprietary' methods and materials you must have some secret source, size, morphology or percentage load of graphene that makes your mayonnaise better than all the others, yet you seem to indicate that graphene generically is so incredible that we would have been blown away had we tested any of it? Could it be that simple? Can't imagine that it is.


5. Yes, we show a graph of dry powder lubricant Cf values, yet we can also find dozens of research papers documenting the improvements in friction when comparing these materials as additives to oil or wax based lubricants.. it was this research that led our supplier to start custom blending WS2 and other additives into oils and greases for Indy Car teams here in the US and they currently custom formulate for over 80% of top teams in Indy and NASCAR.. so this is extremely established science, even if our friends in F1 might find it to be too unsophisticated and affordable, it certainly is widely accepted and proven. So, while you could argue that use of dry powder friction values might be misleading, I'd argue that it's no moreso misleading than you linking this paper comparing these materials used as dry film coatings in metal/metal contact in the presence of gases rather than as additives used in oil or wax, where they are naturally insulated from exposure to atmospheric gasses, that certainly isn't representative either and is probably less representative than what we published... Maybe this topic has exposed some shame on both of us.

Ultimately, I'm super happy for you guys, your product looks amazing and is getting tons of press, it is clearly intended and priced to be in a different league from what we have done and I can only assume and hope that it outperforms our product (which I offered credit for in my original post), and it should outperform us on all fronts for 6x the cost, just as we outperform our benchmark products which we are 2x the cost of. I'm also happy that of all the million lubes out there, our little project seems to be your nearest competitor, something you should embrace as if your stuff does work as well as it should, then you're going to have everybody and their brother rushing to come play in your sandbox.. whereas right now, it's just you and me, and our lube is a side project to commercialize something I've been selling to pro teams that I've been home brewing with some racecar guys. Just wait till the big companies with the big budgets show up, it's a lot less fun then.

Sincerely
Josh

Josh,
The reason why we replied to your post is because in our understanding, you tried to imply your lube is in fact very similar to ours by downplaying base emulsion and graphene as just a minor difference to WS2. Without solid evidence such statements can be seen as an attempt to confuse the readers implying, you can have the same for a fraction of the cost.

Our product is very different in every single aspect to any other lube out there. This is why it stirs so many emotions among riders as claims we put in were unheard of before. But we took our time to back them up with solid independent tests. We have also done longevity field tests with some of the Pro Tour teams we supply. On a single initial application riders did 1200km in sun, rain, hot, cold, cobble stones and the chain was still quiet and ready to do more. No other lube could do that before.

So I would like to ask you to refrain from such comments if there is no evidence to back it up (like test data).


have a great day everyone.

[R3awak3n]

This has been a great discussion, interesting data. I am sure both lubes/waxes are great and time will tell which one is the best. I will probably not buy either so I will probably never get free speed but its good to have both here on the forum.

I like your chainrings absolute black and silca, the torque ti wrench is fantastic. Its good to have a little competion, only way to innovate.

One question for absolute black though, why $150? I understand that it probably cost a lot to develop but would it not be better to sell cheaper and therefor probably sell more? Or does it cost a lot to produce as well?

[absoluteBLACK.]

First of all, wow..

Sincerely
Josh

Below you can find comments to your answers as it was already late yesterday to do that.

1. You try to imply now that some vendor is "using all the same words". While you mostly use subcontractors in your business, we do mostly in-house. This is a completely different approach. Water is not an emulsifying agent for our formula. This is where you are incorrect. You dont know how it's done but elaborate how similar that is. If you would add alcohol to our emulsion you would ruin it. This is how similar they are. End result is clearly visible in longevity and durability. Trying to use your analogy, if yours is mayonnaise ours would be real liquid chocolate. Because in chocolate production there are similar phase change challenges (it's a deep chemistry). There are tens of thousands of ways to do "similar" emulsion. All of them will have different properties.


2/3. Thanks for the digression...but it's not self evident really, as you didn't name a single Pro Tour team that uses your services, or at least I couldn't find it. You try to imply your lube was used by Pro Tour teams for few years and that you are not surprised we came up with something "similar". Now it’s the time to name them and check the facts. As I did ask around and no one knew about your lube nor services you provide.


4. Graphene is very expensive indeed. And it's not simple at all to get where we are now. But saying graphene is "tenth of a Watt difference over WS2" even with it's base form is a clear downplaying without any evidence of that statement nor data on your own lube. Many would say we have bold claims for current lube landscape standards, but we have done a lot of independent tests to back it up. Times of empty claims are over in this competitive landscape. So we will be so kind and test your lube with an independent lab to show the difference since you didnt bother.


5. Blending WS2 into oil or grease is a different thing as it doesn't have a contact with water or oxygen to big extent. It usually works in closed environment like an engine and it's been done for long time. Now graphene takes over its place and many automotive companies already have patents for that, because the difference in performance is substantial.

However, blending WS2 with mixture of water, wax and alcohol is not the same and it’s misleading the readers to believe they will get the same low friction. They wont and we both know it.


Attempting to imply that product A is almost the same as product B with series of small insinuations (without any evidence) is not a well thought out marketing strategy.

[Blown Reek]

All we need is WD-40 to chime in and let these youngins know what a real bike lube is all about.

[R3awak3n]

take it to PM guys :banana:

[absoluteBLACK.]

This has been a great discussion, interesting data. I am sure both lubes/waxes are great and time will tell which one is the best. I will probably not buy either so I will probably never get free speed but its good to have both here on the forum.

I like your chainrings absolute black and silca, the torque ti wrench is fantastic. Its good to have a little competion, only way to innovate.

One question for absolute black though, why $150? I understand that it probably cost a lot to develop but would it not be better to sell cheaper and therefor probably sell more? Or does it cost a lot to produce as well?

The price always comes from somewhere. Just the raw cost of pure graphene for example is astonishingly high.

I understand, like I wrote before, that the price may seem high from some perspective. But looking from a perspective of riders/racers who already spent 5k+ $ on upgrading a bike to gain very similar amount of Watts to what we offer with the lube, suddenly the price of a lube is actually very low. It's a lube to win races or to push your own limits further.

So the price per gained Watt is the lowest of all the other possible upgrades by big factor.

[oldpotatoe]

take it to PM guys :banana:

But this is so much fun to watch...chain lube wars With stuff used on toys.

I’d say round 2 goes to AB although honorable mention to Josh for being a little less, ‘oh yeh!!’ in your face than AB. I’d say since this is digressing into a true ‘black’ argument, yup, probably better in PM but neither person is gonna change their mind..I guess lots at stake over, ya know, bicycle chain lube.

[jemoryl]

I feel like a dinosaur using my home brew motor oil/mineral spirits mix. One upside: all those extra watts I am exerting no doubt will contribute to my workout efforts!

[Tickdoc]

So I hear there is a portion of the fabrication of one of these wunderlubes that involves exploding carbon into microscopic diamond particles....

Can we expand on that please?

[charliedid]

So I hear there is a portion of the fabrication of one of these wunderlubes that involves exploding carbon into microscopic diamond particles....

Can we expand on that please?


Explosion expansion whatever it takes :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mep]

Independent lab tests would be good to see. I get that these are two competing products and companies, but no need to get hostile on a forum!

[oldpotatoe]

Independent lab tests would be good to see. I get that these are two competing products and companies, but no need to get hostile on a forum!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnPYdcbcAe0

I did a google search for 'bicycle chain lube'..7,970,000 hits..enjoy!!

:)