Does SRAM have an exclusive right on wireless shifting?

[tuxbailey]

I did a quick search and didn't see any articles.

Do they have a patent on wireless shifting? Wondering when Shimano and Campagnolo will jump in, so that these stuff will get cheaper for the masses.

[DaveS]

They have at least one patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140102237A1/en

(Standard disclaimer - IANAL, nor have I reviewed the patent in detail or done a FTO search)

[FlashUNC]

SRAM's patented some stuff, but I doubt on the entirety of wireless shifting. Mavic was doing with Mektronic back the 90s after all.

[Mark McM]

Clearly SRAM cannot own the rights to wireless shifting, since wireless shifting systems were on the market already more than 20 years ago. Mavic's Mektronic electronic shifting system, introduced in 1999, was wireless - and it wasn't even the first electronic shifting system, either.

[Hellgate]

I've heard it argued they do, hence the reason no one else has, however that arguement doesn't hold water. The crux of the argument was that the battery is on the derailleur. While I can see a specific battery mounting method being patented, I can't see putting a battery on a motorized derailleur being patented.

IIRC, about three years ago Campy was piloting their version of wireless. I've not seen an article on it since then. They have filed a US patent however. I'm not sure of it's state.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/campagolo-wireless-groupset-224084

[vqdriver]

i think the crux of it is in the protocol. sram developed airea which was short range, quick response, and somehow not prone to interference or cross talk.

[jb_11]

Isn't FSA's system (K Force WE) wireless between the cockpit and the derailleurs? Just wired between the derailleurs, sharing a battery.

[CKT88]

i think the crux of it is in the protocol. sram developed airea which was short range, quick response, and somehow not prone to interference or cross talk.

Right, this is my understanding

[tuxbailey]

i think the crux of it is in the protocol. sram developed airea which was short range, quick response, and somehow not prone to interference or cross talk.

That is quite neat.

[Velocipede]

I did a quick search and didn't see any articles.

Do they have a patent on wireless shifting? Wondering when Shimano and Campagnolo will jump in, so that these stuff will get cheaper for the masses.

They have at least one patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140102237A1/en

(Standard disclaimer - IANAL, nor have I reviewed the patent in detail or done a FTO search)

SRAM's patented some stuff, but I doubt on the entirety of wireless shifting. Mavic was doing with Mektronic back the 90s after all.

Clearly SRAM cannot own the rights to wireless shifting, since wireless shifting systems were on the market already more than 20 years ago. Mavic's Mektronic electronic shifting system, introduced in 1999, was wireless - and it wasn't even the first electronic shifting system, either.

Isn't FSA's system (K Force WE) wireless between the cockpit and the derailleurs? Just wired between the derailleurs, sharing a battery.


A bulk answer here... SRAM does have more than one patent on wireless shifting. So does Shimano, Campagnolo and FSA. And yes, Mavic did as well. But they don't own the wireless shifting market. And if you look at each brands patent applications, they all mention one another or mention Mavic. Campy has had a wireless system being tested for 5 years. FSA is wireless from the shifters to the derailleurs. They use a main battery for the derailleurs only.

[oldpotatoe]

A bulk answer here... SRAM does have more than one patent on wireless shifting. So does Shimano, Campagnolo and FSA. And yes, Mavic did as well. But they don't own the wireless shifting market. And if you look at each brands patent applications, they all mention one another or mention Mavic. Campy has had a wireless system being tested for 5 years. FSA is wireless from the shifters to the derailleurs. They use a main battery for the derailleurs only.

And I'll wager shimano does too in some form. The question is, except for setup, there really is little to no 'advantage' to wireless. Marketeers will tell you different, latest, greatest, whiizbangery that will solve everything including pandemics but in actual riding, wireless means very little. Good for coffee shop points but riding?..not really.

Please don't mention 'looks'..as in in the 'eyes of the beholder'. I don't think big batteries slung onto derailleurs are very pretty either.

[R3awak3n]

And I'll wager shimano does too in some form. The question is, except for setup, there really is little to no 'advantage' to wireless. Marketeers will tell you different, latest, greatest, whiizbangery that will solve everything including pandemics but in actual riding, wireless means very little. Good for coffee shop points but riding?..not really.

Please don't mention 'looks'..as in in the 'eyes of the beholder'. I don't think big batteries slung onto derailleurs are very pretty either.

I would love to be able to see through 2 alternative worlds. One is the current one and the other is one where campy is the one that came out with wireless shifting first. I am betting your post would read a lot different :fight:

You are correct though, wireless does not make anything better on the bike as far as shifting goes and I will give you that batteries are not pleasant to the yet (but hey, campy was able to make campy 12 be pretty ugly with no need to have batteries hanging). However it is nice that you can carry batteries with you and never run out of juice, not to mention being able to swap a batteyy from front to back and still have some shifting. As far as setup, no need to be fishing tiny wires through poorly manufactured carbon frames trying to get wires to go here and there and having a battery crudely secured in a seat post.

Its funny to have this new fangled tech and then have junction boxes and hanging batteries and wires coming through everywhere.

[saab2000]

And I'll wager shimano does too in some form. The question is, except for setup, there really is little to no 'advantage' to wireless. Marketeers will tell you different, latest, greatest, whiizbangery that will solve everything including pandemics but in actual riding, wireless means very little. Good for coffee shop points but riding?..not really.

Please don't mention 'looks'..as in in the 'eyes of the beholder'. I don't think big batteries slung onto derailleurs are very pretty either.

The setup of my Di2 was a nightmare and it sort of continues. Not getting into it here but I sometimes wish I had opted for AXS. The setup looks simple and the lack of wire and the junction box is very appealing.

[SoCalSteve]

I would love to be able to see through 2 alternative worlds. One is the current one and the other is one where campy is the one that came out with wireless shifting first.I am betting your post would read a lot different :fight:

You are correct though, wireless does not make anything better on the bike as far as shifting goes and I will give you that batteries are not pleasant to the yet (but hey, campy was able to make campy 12 be pretty ugly with no need to have batteries hanging). However it is nice that you can carry batteries with you and never run out of juice, not to mention being able to swap a batteyy from front to back and still have some shifting. As far as setup, no need to be fishing tiny wires through poorly manufactured carbon frames trying to get wires to go here and there and having a battery crudely secured in a seat post.

Its funny to have this new fangled tech and then have junction boxes and hanging batteries and wires coming through everywhere.

You read my mind!

And, the DI2-Garmin interface is a joke. ETap has their Garmin interface built in. Yeah, no other wires or bits hanging off the bike. Imagine that!

I’ve always felt that the progression should have been mechanical to wireless. Why electric wired shifting even exists is a wonder to me.

Yeah, if Campy had come out with it first, no matter how ugly, Old Spud would think it was the best thing since sliced bread.

[Velocipede]

And I'll wager shimano does too in some form. The question is, except for setup, there really is little to no 'advantage' to wireless. Marketeers will tell you different, latest, greatest, whiizbangery that will solve everything including pandemics but in actual riding, wireless means very little. Good for coffee shop points but riding?..not really.

Please don't mention 'looks'..as in in the 'eyes of the beholder'. I don't think big batteries slung onto derailleurs are very pretty either.

I wouldn't be surprised. The problem is searching Shimano patents. They have so many!!! They file a hundred a year or more given everything they have hands in with automotive and sport. Searching for everything is tough and you can lose yourself. I know at one point someone found wireless Shimano patents. But I've never heard of or seen anything in the wild. And I don't have to travel to the left coast much anymore so I haven't been to Irvine in years. I used to love going in and seeing what was in The Cage.

[simonov]

You read my mind!

And, the DI2-Garmin interface is a joke. ETap has their Garmin interface built in. Yeah, no other wires or bits hanging off the bike. Imagine that!

I’ve always felt that the progression should have been mechanical to wireless. Why electric wired shifting even exists is a wonder to me.

Yeah, if Campy had come out with it first, no matter how ugly, Old Spud would think it was the best thing since sliced bread.

The other factor with eTap is the totally different, but totally intuitive, shifting paradigm. eTap isn't just about being wireless, but people who like to dog on SRAM tend to focus on that. I switch groups all the time and the only one that leaves my brain programmed the next day is eTap. It's that natural for me to use.

[weisan]

Watching my 7-year-old agonizing over the grip shifters on her kids bike...if I can wave my magic wand, all kids under 12 will be the first to be gifted with the latest tech that we come up with....followed by adults a distant second.

[benb]

Wireless/Wired shifting is a big integrated system.

Usually patents are for very small specific things.

SRAM could have a patent on some part of the system and Shimano and Campy could have their own patents on that same part of the system cause they do it differently.

The SRAM system is all just integrated bits of off the shelf stuff. That's actually good. I haven't gone looking for pictures of the Shimano circuit boards.. somehow I can see Shimano having gone and done everything totally custom in some weird way.

[SoCalSteve]

The other factor with eTap is the totally different, but totally intuitive, shifting paradigm. eTap isn't just about being wireless, but people who like to dog on SRAM tend to focus on that. I switch groups all the time and the only one that leaves my brain programmed the next day is eTap. It's that natural for me to use.

That’s so funny! I’ve been using ETap exclusively for so long now, I’ve completely forgotten that the shifting just works so well. It’s just so intuitive....:)

[benb]

Watching my 7-year-old agonizing over the grip shifters on her kids bike...if I can wave my magic wand, all kids under 12 will be the first to be gifted with the latest tech that we come up with....followed by adults a distant second.

My 7 year old is OK now but I totally agree. He has SRAM grip shift on his 6-speed trek and last year he didn't have the hand strength to downshift. He could upshift but not downshift.

Not sure why they didn't come up with something better for kids, trigger style shifters like most adult MTBs seem like they'd be easier.

He also has trouble with the right handgrip constantly trying to come off cause it gets twisted during shifting and he has to squeeze with all his fingers to have enough strength to turn the shifter.

[adrien]

Wired electronic shifting makes a bike more complicated. Wires, junctions, etc. I've ridden three versions, and they all seem fiddly, and the integration is difficult.

IME Wireless has the opposite effect: it takes a simple machine and makes it simpler.

[tuxbailey]

Wired electronic shifting makes a bike more complicated. Wires, junctions, etc. I've ridden three versions, and they all seem fiddly, and the integration is difficult.

IME Wireless has the opposite effect: it takes a simple machine and makes it simpler.

Supposedly the FD/RD adjustment is a breeze. Is that true? After my current adventure with RD I think I want to go that way.

[benb]

Wired electronic shifting makes a bike more complicated. Wires, junctions, etc. I've ridden three versions, and they all seem fiddly, and the integration is difficult.

IME Wireless has the opposite effect: it takes a simple machine and makes it simpler.

From a certain point of view.

If you think about it from the point of view of taking a vehicle that has no electric power requirement and now it has electric power requirements and needs a computer to operate you made it about a billion times more complex.

The bicycle is a 19th century technology, these shifting systems suddenly make it require a whole bunch of 21st century technology to operate.

[thirdgenbird]

Wired electronic shifting makes a bike more complicated. Wires, junctions, etc. I've ridden three versions, and they all seem fiddly, and the integration is difficult.

IME Wireless has the opposite effect: it takes a simple machine and makes it simpler.

From a certain point of view.

If you think about it from the point of view of taking a vehicle that has no electric power requirement and now it has electric power requirements and needs a computer to operate you made it about a billion times more complex.

The bicycle is a 19th century technology, these shifting systems suddenly make it require a whole bunch of 21st century technology to operate.

And that is what makes a great tech product in my opinion. When technology can be transparent enough to make things feel simple, you have done your job.

I daily drove a 1963 AMC Rambler year round and in Iowa a few years ago. I ended up replacing the carburetor with a self-learning tbi system that had the computer integrated into the throttle body. Installing it only took a few wires and it made the car start perfectly in any weather condition, was more reliable, idled smoother, and had more mid-range power. Adding tech simplified my life as a driver and as a mechanic.

[benb]

Computers can make some things simpler as long as everything works great, then the problem is way worse.

But yah, fuel injection is a great example.

I am just not sure I think cable derailleurs are nearly the same. They're simple, elegant, and ultra reliable.

Fuel Injection does a bunch of things that are totally impossible with carburetors, electronic shifting does really do anything thing at all like that.

[FlashUNC]

Computers can make some things simpler as long as everything works great, then the problem is way worse.

But yah, fuel injection is a great example.

I am just not sure I think cable derailleurs are nearly the same. They're simple, elegant, and ultra reliable.

Fuel Injection does a bunch of things that are totally impossible with carburetors, electronic shifting does really do anything thing at all like that.

Fully sequential shifting, automatic gear inch compensation on a front ring shift, auto trim and micro-trim of the derailleurs on the fly.

Yeah, it can do stuff the mechanical bits can't.

[thirdgenbird]

Certainly a place for both. I loved the injection on the AMC but my MG will probably keep its SU setup forever. No regrets going mechanical on my last bike build. Different flavors are good.



(It should be noted that I’ve got a blower between the head and the SU however. Old tech doesn’t have to be boring tech)

[David Tollefson]

As a frame builder, not having accommodations for cables is a big plus -- fewer heat-affected zones on the tube means potentially longer frame life. Not drilling more holes for wires -- bonus again.

Then there's the versatility -- if you decide to go 1x or even 1x1, you don't have vestigal fittings (assuming swappable dropouts to "remove" the RD hanger) protruding from the frame.

[crownjewelwl]

as already stated, it is protocal that is protected...i'm sure there are easy ways around it

i had di2 on road and mtb before...the wires/junction boxes are unnecessarily complicated

i was never a sram fan, but i have axs on my road and mtb...best gruppos i've had on road or mtb...really elegantly executed...super easy to set up and shifts perfect...also the axs dropper is amazing

no i am not getting sram tat on my arm

[Tony]

You read my mind!

And, the DI2-Garmin interface is a joke. ETap has their Garmin interface built in. Yeah, no other wires or bits hanging off the bike. Imagine that!

I’ve always felt that the progression should have been mechanical to wireless. Why electric wired shifting even exists is a wonder to me.

Yeah, if Campy had come out with it first, no matter how ugly, Old Spud would think it was the best thing since sliced bread.

That's where true love begins.

[Dekonick]

i think the crux of it is in the protocol. sram developed airea which was short range, quick response, and somehow not prone to interference or cross talk.

I could see some 'hacker' playing havoc in a crit sprint... :eek:

[bthomas515]

It might have been mentioned already but I read an article right after Etap’s release where a Shimano rep said they didn’t see a market for wireless. Given the simplicity after install of di2 they just didnt see the necessity of switching. Might be a reason for their non entrance into that world

[oldpotatoe]

I would love to be able to see through 2 alternative worlds. One is the current one and the other is one where campy is the one that came out with wireless shifting first. I am betting your post would read a lot different :fight:

You are correct though, wireless does not make anything better on the bike as far as shifting goes and I will give you that batteries are not pleasant to the yet (but hey, campy was able to make campy 12 be pretty ugly with no need to have batteries hanging). However it is nice that you can carry batteries with you and never run out of juice, not to mention being able to swap a batteyy from front to back and still have some shifting. As far as setup, no need to be fishing tiny wires through poorly manufactured carbon frames trying to get wires to go here and there and having a battery crudely secured in a seat post.

Its funny to have this new fangled tech and then have junction boxes and hanging batteries and wires coming through everywhere.

I guess you missed my posts when Campag came out with electronic shifting.

Or when shimano and Campag made the back room 'deal' to have Campag be electronic if shimano went to 11s..:eek:

Yup, set up..I wonder how many people buy a frame and then install anything?? Pretty teeny numbers, I would image. Frame makers LOVE etap..frame cheaper to make,too bad those $ are filtered down to consumers.

Wireless is a small part of electronic anything...like in say..airplanes..not gonna EVER have woreless fl by wire.

Yes, etap lever batteries last for decades(if ya believe the interweb)..it would be a real shame if one went south tho..during a ride..ain't gonna change those. :eek:
Yeah, if Campy had come out with it first, no matter how ugly, Old Spud would think it was the best thing since sliced bread.

i slice my own bread...

[oldpotatoe]

That’s so funny! I’ve been using ETap exclusively for so long now, I’ve completely forgotten that the shifting just works so well. It’s just so intuitive....:)

I guess if sram now made a mechanical 12s group, you would think it's the best thing since sliced bread...--->>>:)

[oldpotatoe]

My 7 year old is OK now but I totally agree. He has SRAM grip shift on his 6-speed trek and last year he didn't have the hand strength to downshift. He could upshift but not downshift.

Not sure why they didn't come up with something better for kids, trigger style shifters like most adult MTBs seem like they'd be easier.

He also has trouble with the right handgrip constantly trying to come off cause it gets twisted during shifting and he has to squeeze with all his fingers to have enough strength to turn the shifter.

Just bought a Cleary for my 9YO...single speed front and trigger RD..very easy to use..and WET disc brakes-yo!! It was sram but I bought it anyway...:)

[oldpotatoe]

Fully sequential shifting, automatic gear inch compensation on a front ring shift, auto trim and micro-trim of the derailleurs on the fly.

Yeah, it can do stuff the mechanical bits can't.

Sounds like shimano XTR...:eek:
It might have been mentioned already but I read an article right after Etap’s release where a Shimano rep said they didn’t see a market for wireless. Given the simplicity after install of di2 they just didnt see the necessity of switching. Might be a reason for their non entrance into that world


Shimano does thing according to shimano. Look how long before they had a BB 30 anything..any headsets? Carbon cranks?

I think the next thing will be semi wireless, ders hard wired and one shifter only..and an 'auto' front der..ala XTR...

[SoCalSteve]

I guess if sram now made a mechanical 12s group, you would think it's the best thing since sliced bread...--->>>:)

Huh? It’s been close to 10 years since I used a mechanical drivetrain. I’m also very happy with my 11 speed etap so I’m not sure what you mean by all this.

[oldpotatoe]

Huh? It’s been close to 10 years since I used a mechanical drivetrain. I’m also very happy with my 11 speed etap so I’m not sure what you mean by all this.
Yeah, if Campy had come out with it first, no matter how ugly, Old Spud would think it was the best thing since sliced bread.


Let's not lose that sense of humor....it's about toys, afterall...:)

[SoCalSteve]

Let's not lose that sense of humor....it's about toys, afterall...:)

I lost my sense of humor on March 16th, 2020 when the “Safer at Home”orders came down...I do think this country is at a tipping point on soooo many levels. Or maybe it’s already tipped. It needed to tip. On so many levels.

So, sorry Ol spud, I’ll try to do better once there is a vaccine...:confused:

Hope you and your family are doing well and staying safe.

Sorry about the thread drift! Now let’s get back to arguing about toys!!!

[simonov]

It might have been mentioned already but I read an article right after Etap’s release where a Shimano rep said they didn’t see a market for wireless. Given the simplicity after install of di2 they just didnt see the necessity of switching. Might be a reason for their non entrance into that world

Given how many bikes I see out on the road with eTap, I'd say Shimano was incorrect if they didn't see a market for wireless.

I guess if sram now made a mechanical 12s group, you would think it's the best thing since sliced bread...--->>>:)

Oh man, I would love a 12speed SRAM mechanical group.

[Dave]

SRAM has the worst website I've ever seen - extremely difficult to see what's offered. At the Campy website you can pick rim or disc, then the level from high to low and quickly know what cranks and cassettes are offered.

Looking at SRAM's website, they must have completely abandoned mechanical and it's hard to find meaningful details on the electronic groups.:mad:

I want to immediately see the specs on the new 10-36 cassette and whether they intend to ever offer a crank with the now normal 16T difference.

[FlashUNC]

SRAM has the worst website I've ever seen - extremely difficult to see what's offered. At the Campy website you can pick rim or disc, then the level from high to low and quickly know what cranks and cassettes are offered.

Looking at SRAM's website, they must have completely abandoned mechanical and it's hard to find meaningful details on the electronic groups.:mad:

I want to immediately see the specs on the new 10-36 cassette and whether they intend to ever offer a crank with the now normal 16T difference.

Two clicks to get to this page:

https://www.sram.com/en/life/stories/x-range-gearing

[tomato coupe]

Two clicks to get to this page:
You're not supposed to tell people about the secret webpages. The 2-click obstacles are to keep them away.

[FlashUNC]

You're not supposed to tell people about the secret webpages. The 2-click obstacles are to keep them away.

Amazon ruined everything with their 1 click. They cut the clicks in half.

[Dave]

Two clicks to get to this page:

https://www.sram.com/en/life/stories/x-range-gearing

Getting there from sram.com isn't that easy.

I have noticed that MSRP on a 3 piece force group is now $1380, which is a lot less than the $1650 that most sellers asked. A complete group is also cheaper, but still more than twice that of chorus 12 mechanical.

The 13T difference at the crank is still a disappointment. Some users say it will shift 16, but the RD is unlikely to have the wrap with the new 10-36. I guess you could add an inch of chain and skip the smallest 3-4 sprockets with the little ring.

I also read of many problems getting the FD aligned and adjusted. Campy 12 is a no- brainer. I've always done it by eyeball.

[FlashUNC]

Getting there from sram.com isn't that easy.

I have noticed that MSRP on a 3 piece force group is now $1380, which is a lot less than the $1650 that most sellers asked. A complete group is also cheaper, but still more than twice that of chorus 12 mechanical.

The 13T difference at the crank is still a disappointment. Some users say it will shift 16, but the RD is unlikely to have the wrap with the new 10-36. I guess you could add an inch of chain and skip the smallest 3-4 sprockets with the little ring.

I also read of many problems getting the FD aligned and adjusted. Campy 12 is a no- brainer. I've always done it by eyeball.

I mean, I just did it. It's really not that hard. I guess there's a hover for a drop-down menu too. So you hover over ROAD, then click on SRAM eTap AXS, then click on the gearing section.

I've got a 30x33 that it handles fine and looks like it could handle the excess slack of the longer chain needed for a 36 tooth. Who needs a 30x36 though? If you're going touring, you're probably going with a mullet setup for even wider range, but anything sub 1:1 on a road bike is a bit silly.

[tomato coupe]

I have noticed that MSRP on a 3 piece force group is now $1380, which is a lot less than the $1650 that most sellers asked. A complete group is also cheaper, but still more than twice that of chorus 12 mechanical.
Yes, eTap costs more than Chorus mechanical because electronic groups cost more than mechanical groups.

[Dave]

I ride the Colorado mountains. I already have a 32/34 that I use on nearly every ride. The SRAM 10-33 cassette is not as low and the spacing not as good as Campy's 11-34.

A Campy 48/32 with a 10-36 would provide a huge range.

Searching on my tablet doesn't work the same as on my computer. I see a much better website layout on my computer.

[Dave]

Yes, eTap costs more than Chorus mechanical because electronic groups cost more than mechanical groups.

IMO, they shouldn't cost twice as much at the same model level.

[tuxbailey]

IMO, they shouldn't cost twice as much at the same model level.

They are the only wireless player now. And supply vs. demand, etc.

I do know when it is time to upgrade (if I actually do) I will definitely go wireless. Just the promise of easy set up is attractive.

[oldpotatoe]

I lost my sense of humor on March 16th, 2020 when the “Safer at Home”orders came down...I do think this country is at a tipping point on soooo many levels. Or maybe it’s already tipped. It needed to tip. On so many levels.

So, sorry Ol spud, I’ll try to do better once there is a vaccine...:confused:

Hope you and your family are doing well and staying safe.

Sorry about the thread drift! Now let’s get back to arguing about toys!!!

Listen Steve..I am an 'at risk person', so is my wife. It tears me up everytime I see my son's, daughter in law and 2 beautiful grand daughters, from 10 feet away or on facetime.

So, I hear ya brother...yup, just can that sram stuff and step up to SR 12s EPS...!!:):):):):):):):)

[Mark McM]

Two clicks to get to this page:

https://www.sram.com/en/life/stories/x-range-gearing

I see from that web page that SRAM is still trying to claim that their AXS drivetrain "magically" has wider ranges and smaller jumps between gears (by pointing out that their cassettes have more 1 tooth jumps). Of course, mathematically, this is impossible, you can either have wider range, or smaller jumps between gears (on average), not both. If you take a closer look at the sprocket size charts, you see that in order to achieve more 1 tooth jumps between the smaller sprockets, they have to use bigger jumps between the larger sprockets.

Personally, I like my cassettes to have have uniform jumps between gears sizes. Obviously it is impossible to have exactly the same jump between all gears, but I like to minimize the difference between the smaller and widest jumps. Looking at the sprocket size charts, I find that the "competitors" sprocket sizes are more preferable than the SRAM sprocket sizes, and when putting together a drivtrain I'd pick the "competitors" cassette and select chainrings sizes as necessary for the desired gear range.

[corky]

My understanding with the patents is that SRAM has one on the derailleurs having the their own power supply, ie. the batteries are on the derailleurs themselves.

The rumour is that Shimano DI 2 next edition get round this as they will have wireless shifters but that the front and rear mechs will still be powered by one remote battery.

Of course this is could all be made up by me....

[thirdgenbird]

Mavic Mektronic had the battery on/in the rear derailleur. The rear was totally wireless. I’ve not seen the sram patent, but I’ve heard it’s only for how the battery attaches to the derailleur.

[oldpotatoe]

Mavic Mektronic had the battery on/in the rear derailleur. The rear was totally wireless. I’ve not seen the sram patent, but I’ve heard it’s only for how the battery attaches to the derailleur.

Been a few years but I thought the top pulley on Mavic Zap and Mektronic was the 'power source', and with it spinning, it powered the rear der(front was always mechanical)..

BUT, I've 'heard' that shimano will be 12s, hard wired ders, ONE shifter(RH/rear one) and 'smart', programable front der..that shifts itself..But could be wrong...:eek:

[Mark McM]

Been a few years but I thought the top pulley on Mavic Zap and Mektronic was the 'power source', and with it spinning, it powered the rear der(front was always mechanical):

Yes, the spinning top pulley powerd a reciprocating plunger that provided the mechanical force/energy to move the derailleur, but the derailleur still required a battery to operate the radio, and that battery was installed directly in the derailleur. Of course, the Mavic electronic derailleur systems were developed when the sport was still entirely human powered, and before the manufacturers strong-armed (or maybe just straight up bribed) the UCI to allow bicycles to be partially operated on stored electrical energy.

[djg21]

Clearly SRAM cannot own the rights to wireless shifting, since wireless shifting systems were on the market already more than 20 years ago. Mavic's Mektronic electronic shifting system, introduced in 1999, was wireless - and it wasn't even the first electronic shifting system, either.

This is a bit simplistic and not necessarily correct. Patentability would depend on a number of factors, and a discussion of them is beyond the scope of this forum. But to the extent that SRAM’s wireless shifting system, or elements of it, are novel, it can be patented. SRAM does have at least one current patent on electric shifters. https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140102237A1/en.

Shimano also has a patent on wireless shifting. https://road.cc/content/tech-news/239071-shimano-patents-reveal-wireless-shifting-and-copper-disc-rotors-could-be

As does Campy, but IMO, Campy’s is just goofy. https://bikerumor.com/2019/12/16/patent-patrol-campagnolo-goes-full-cyborg-null-winds-patents-huge-bicycle-treadmill/


The reality is that if Shimano can build wireless shifters that work as well or better than SRAM and can be sold for less than those made by SRAM, without infringing on existing patents, Shimano will bring them to market.

[thirdgenbird]

Yes, I should have been clear that the battery was a coin cell used for communication. I would think the pulley system would also be considered onboard power but I am no patent lawyer.

Yesterday, I noticed the overall tone of reviews on sram electronic groups are quite different over on weight weenies. Dropping chains, bent chainrings, dead rear derailleurs. I really haven’t seen those issues over here.

[Mark McM]

This is a bit simplistic and not necessarily correct. Patentability would depend on a number of factors, and a discussion of them is beyond the scope of this forum. But to the extent that SRAM’s wireless shifting system, or elements of it, are novel, it can be patented. SRAM does have at least one current patent on electric shifters. https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140102237A1/en.

Well yes, patents can be granted to additions to or different implementations of an invention - but those patents don't supercede the original patent, they merely add to it. So the original statement stands: SRAM cannot have exclusive rights to all wireless shifting systems (as was originally asked), because there is already prior art. SRAM may have come up with their own implementation of wireless shifting, but another company also has the right to build a wireless shifting, as long as they don't use SRAM's implementation.

If Mavic had patented the idea of wireless shifting, and if their patent was still in force, then SRAM (or anyone else) would need to license the rights to wireless shifting from Mavic, even if they used a slightly different implementation. But as the idea has been out in the wild for decades, any original patents on wireless shifting would now be expired, so only new and unique implementations of wireless shifting can be patented.

[oldpotatoe]

Yes, I should have been clear that the battery was a coin cell used for communication. I would think the pulley system would also be considered onboard power but I am no patent lawyer.

Yesterday, I noticed the overall tone of reviews on sram electronic groups are quite different over on weight weenies. Dropping chains, bent chainrings, dead rear derailleurs. I really haven’t seen those issues over here.

WHAT?? Not happy with etap? Next thing ya know, dogs and cats will be living together....🙃

[SoCalSteve]

WHAT?? Not happy with etap? Next thing ya know, dogs and cats will be living together....🙃

1 dog, 2 cats and 2 bikes with ETap. All living together harmoniously...:banana: