Mosaic RT-1 Pricing // Custom frame pricing

[bthomas515]

Found a local guy selling a custom mosaic rt1 frameset which comes quite close to my dimensions. Looking around, pricing is incredibly difficult. The Pros Closet is the only place I’ve found used frames and they’re asking >2,600, which is crazy to me.

Anyone know what a decent price for the frameset would be or how to adequately price custom frames? It’d be a shot at fit so I may ride it a bit and then sell and don’t want to lose my shirt.

[livesadventure]

I recently sold a 2018 rt-1 frameset for about 2k with king headset and bottom bracket.


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[bthomas515]

I recently sold a 2018 rt-1 frameset for about 2k with king headset and bottom bracket.


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Oh thanks. Didn’t realize they still had that level of market

[Mikej]

I believe retail is 5500$ ffhs-

[eBAUMANN]

A Mosaic is on par with any of the Big Names in Titanium and will be priced accordingly.
7 years ago (when I bought my first Mosaic, used) they were almost completely unknown and an amazing bargain on the secondhand market because of that.

Anything under $2k is a bargain and anything over $3k should be something really special.

But yea, expect to pay $2-3k for a nice used example.

[Imaking20]

I think Mosaic is drunk on their own Kool Aid. I was enamored by them for years and then finally owned an RT1 and RT2. I was unimpressed by both - albeit for very different reasons.

Pros Closet is also drunk thinking they'll get that asking price for an etap specific frame with no headset and undefined custom geometry.

I'd say max out around $2k if the geometry is perfect. And make sure the FD tab is actually aligned properly. And that the bottle cage bolts are spaced far enough that you can actually fit 2 bottles...

[nmrt]

Last year I as quoted $6900 for Mosaic RT1 frame/fork. Price included paint. Though I am not sure what level of paint. Then I inquired on pricing for RT1 for frame and fork but no paint. It was still $6900.

That was the day Mosaic was not in any of my new bike or used bike buying list.

I believe retail is 5500$ ffhs-

[bthomas515]

Last year I as quoted $6900 for Mosaic RT1 frame/fork. Price included paint. Though I am not sure what level of paint. Then I inquired on pricing for RT1 for frame and fork but no paint. It was still $6900.

That was the day Mosaic was not in any of my new bike or used bike buying list.

$6900 is wild. Didn’t realize they were that steep

[prototoast]

Last year I as quoted $6900 for Mosaic RT1 frame/fork. Price included paint. Though I am not sure what level of paint. Then I inquired on pricing for RT1 for frame and fork but no paint. It was still $6900.

That was the day Mosaic was not in any of my new bike or used bike buying list.

When I spoke with Mosaic at the last nahbs, they were pretty clear that fancy custom paint was part of what they saw the RT-1 as. They always sell the RT-2 if you're not looking to go all out with customization, including finish. Asking for an RT-1 without custom paint would be like asking for a Speedvagen without an ISP, or a Richard Sachs with a carbon fork. There are builders out there who will build you exactly what you want with a la carte pricing, and there are others trying to establish brand equity, and part of doing that is defining what their premium product should be

[Imaking20]

Disagree. My RT-1 was blasted and polished. No paint.


I inquired about an RS-1 recently and they quoted me $6k for a frame and fork. FOR A FRAME AND FORK.

No.

AFAIK, they're using the same Columbus HSS tubes as everyone else. Based on the build quality of my RT-1, they're not doing anything better than the likes of many reputable builders who will ask half that price.

[Mikej]

:eek: 6900$!!

[mjb266]

Hmmm...I've got an RT-1 I've had for years...maybe it's appreciating?

[prototoast]

I inquired about an RS-1 recently and they quoted me $6k for a frame and fork. FOR A FRAME AND FORK.

No.

AFAIK, they're using the same Columbus HSS tubes as everyone else. Based on the build quality of my RT-1, they're not doing anything better than the likes of many reputable builders who will ask half that price.

The RS-1 is the only steel bike they still offer, and I suspect it's pricing reflect a position of "we'd rather stick to titanium, but if you REALLY want a steel bike from us, we'll do it, but it will cost you." And who can blame them. If they're at capacity building $6000 titanium frames, it really doesn't make a lot of sense for them to build a $3000 steel frame.

[FlashUNC]

If you don't like the price, don't buy it. Market forces and all that.

[bthomas515]

And make sure the FD tab is actually aligned properly. And that the bottle cage bolts are spaced far enough that you can actually fit 2 bottles...

I take it both of these issues occurred in your mosaic experience? these are very specific issues so

[Imaking20]

The RS-1 is the only steel bike they still offer, and I suspect it's pricing reflect a position of "we'd rather stick to titanium, but if you REALLY want a steel bike from us, we'll do it, but it will cost you." And who can blame them. If they're at capacity building $6000 titanium frames, it really doesn't make a lot of sense for them to build a $3000 steel frame.

The only steel bike they ever offered :confused:

Nobody is holding a gun to their head to make them. They still build RS-1 for NAHBS so it's not like the hidden menu at In-N-Out.

I take it both of these issues occurred in your mosaic experience? these are very specific issues so

That'd be correct. The other experience was just a really unimpressive ride.

[nmrt]

I wanted the RT-1 because of butted tubing. The RT-2 has straight gauge. Hence, my disinterest in it.

So, if you want a butted Mosaic, you have a get the paint job. Understood.
No wonder my money went somewhere else.

When I spoke with Mosaic at the last nahbs, they were pretty clear that fancy custom paint was part of what they saw the RT-1 as. They always sell the RT-2 if you're not looking to go all out with customization, including finish. Asking for an RT-1 without custom paint would be like asking for a Speedvagen without an ISP, or a Richard Sachs with a carbon fork. There are builders out there who will build you exactly what you want with a la carte pricing, and there are others trying to establish brand equity, and part of doing that is defining what their premium product should be

[vincenz]

Disagree. My RT-1 was blasted and polished. No paint.


I inquired about an RS-1 recently and they quoted me $6k for a frame and fork. FOR A FRAME AND FORK.

No.

AFAIK, they're using the same Columbus HSS tubes as everyone else. Based on the build quality of my RT-1, they're not doing anything better than the likes of many reputable builders who will ask half that price.


Agree with this. It’s one thing if the tubing is different or there are other aspects to the design/build/process that sets it very much unique from competitors to command that kind of premium, but to do it for “brand equity” is not enough in my book. I haven’t seen anything outstanding about their frames to match that kind of price point.

When I was going for my first ti frame, I considered them, but after visiting their site and reading through their generic marketing copy with small grammatical lapses and looking more into their finishes/design/aesthetic, I was left underwhelmed. Not the experience I expect for their asking price. My two cents.

[Andy sti]

They still build RS-1 for NAHBS so it's not like the hidden menu at In-N-Out.

Hold on, there’s a hidden menu at In-N-Out? I’m so not in touch.

[54ny77]

Animal style for the win.

And the defibrillator.

Hold on, there’s a hidden menu at In-N-Out? I’m so not in touch.

[Imaking20]

Don't f*ck with me, Andy...

If you don't know about the grilled onions, we cannot be friends.

[romalor]

have to agree with lmakin20 on this

they have baum-ified their offer

hey its fine we have more choses than ever

[NoMoreParagon]

Mosaic are pricey. What I don’t like is that they got even pricier past few months. They a increased prices for optionals.
As you said market wins, hence if they have those prices somebody somewhere might match their request.
You get a perfect product though. Welds, alignment, finishes are amazing and you get that product in 3 months top, which is a rarity for these days.
They perfected their production system.

As prices have risen, the market for used Mosaic have flourished too. If you have the right model (disc, clearance and good optionals) it sells in a heartbeat.

Used trades at around 40% of new prices which is in line with Firefly, Moots and SV.

Yours being a caliper model, should probably be closer to 50% off.


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[Mikej]

If you don't like the price, don't buy it. Market forces and all that.

Wow, what a nugget of information - However, still :eek: $6900!

[Jeff N.]

I believe retail is 5500$ ffhs-Right. As far as new/retail/custom Ti rides go (American made) , I've found Mosaic to be among the most pricey for sure.

[EB]

Early last year my Mosaic MT-1 was $3900 for the frame. I believe the tubing is straight gauge as they don’t believe butted Ti is a good idea for mountain bikes. Everything on it is perfect and they turned around full custom geo in 4 weeks total - would buy again. No idea if they’re charging more for that frame these days or not, but you get what you pay for.

[Duende]

I think it's clear Mosaic is going through changes, constantly evolving, with the goal of improving their product.

The acquisition of Spectrum paint works is an example of this. None of the paint of offerings today were available when I bought my Mosaic. So that's an added plus for today's customer.

Are their prices high? Yeah... they're definitely a bit steep, but given the turn around time you get what you pay for. I got my frame in 5 weeks.

I didn't want to wait a year for a frame... that's the wait time I was quoted by a few other builders i was shopping.

Good, fast, or cheap... pick any two.

Anyways, to each his own... my GT-1 rides like a dream both on and off road.

I will definitely be getting a new paint job from them in a couple years.

[54ny77]

^^they bought Spectrum paint?

If I recall, that place was always known for their incredible powder coat jobs. Mind blowing , really. On par with wet paint.
Is it the same shop?

[FlashUNC]

^^they bought Spectrum paint?

If I recall, that place was always known for their incredible powder coat jobs. Mind blowing , really. On par with wet paint.
Is it the same shop?


Bought them back in, what, 2016?

Wow, what a nugget of information - However, still :eek: $6900!

The depth of insight is on par with the complaint about the price of the frames. It is what it is. I'm sure Mosaic has better insight into their P&L than any of us do, and what it'd take for each frame going out the door to keep the lights on.

[bob heinatz]

They jumped their prices a few years ago with no improvement in their product. I don't remember the reason why but I remember that it made no sense to me to dramatically raise their prices.

When you can buy a Erikson, Holland, Hampsten, FF, ect for 1K - 2k less it doesn't make any sense to consider this brand.

[many_styles]

Does this apply to their custom Ti frames too?

I’m debating on a Ti from them, Bingham or even FireFly.


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[prototoast]

They jumped their prices a few years ago with no improvement in their product. I don't remember the reason why but I remember that it made no sense to me to dramatically raise their prices.

When you can buy a Erikson, Holland, Hampsten, FF, ect for 1K - 2k less it doesn't make any sense to consider this brand.

Once you add in all the features that are included in the price of a Mosaic, the price differential gets a lot smaller. Paint can easily run $1000-1500. Internal routing can add quite a bit too--I had one titanium builder quote me at $300 per hole to add internal routing. So with that builder, di2 routing would add $900 and brake routing would be $600. Now that's probably on the high end for internal routing, but

There are a lot of builders out there who can get you in the door with a titanium frame for around $4000, but if you want all the bells and whistles, I think it would be hard to find all all the features included in Mosaic's 1-series for substantially less than they're offering.

[jwin]

Why is it that custom bikes are so expensive? I get the art form idea and the idea that it's MUSA (or otherwise), manufactured by hand, and a white glove experience.

But if the goal is to get a good riding bike with custom geometry it seems that the price should only be marginally more than big box Taiwanese bikes. Maybe I am in the dark, but I am surprised that an out-sourced assembly line custom geometry bikes don't exist.

I guess there is Waltly, but it seems more of a roll-your-own geo and there's no high quality storefront.

[many_styles]

Custom is the key word here. Time spent on someone’s frame = labor, and paying the bills to compensate everyone who had a hand in making that frame. Even the unsexy things like administrative costs.

Mass produced: manufacturers design the bike at the front end of the process, and let machines and streamlining processes churn out frame quickly.


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[fried bake]

Carver also outsources in the far east and I’ve looked into that option previously, but if I’m honest, the brand doesn’t excite me. I presume the price point of Mosaic and other high end manufacturers reflect this. Whether and how soon this will change is anybody’s guess.


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[FlashUNC]

Why is it that custom bikes are so expensive? I get the art form idea and the idea that it's MUSA (or otherwise), manufactured by hand, and a white glove experience.

But if the goal is to get a good riding bike with custom geometry it seems that the price should only be marginally more than big box Taiwanese bikes. Maybe I am in the dark, but I am surprised that an out-sourced assembly line custom geometry bikes don't exist.

I guess there is Waltly, but it seems more of a roll-your-own geo and there's no high quality storefront.

Why when custom builders don't have:

-- Economies of scale
-- Low labor costs
-- Dedicated pipeline of annual buying from distributors and wholesalers

Yeah, the overhead is lower, but you're taking away so many competitive advantages the large builders have that drive down their cost per unit.

[jwin]

Why when custom builders don't have:

-- Economies of scale
-- Low labor costs
-- Dedicated pipeline of annual buying from distributors and wholesalers

Yeah, the overhead is lower, but you're taking away so many competitive advantages the large builders have that drive down their cost per unit.

I'm not expecting builders like Mosaic, Moots, Firefly, etc. to even come close to the price of big box Taiwanese bikes, but I'm wondering if the economies of scale and low labor costs can still be applied to outsourced custom-geo Taiwanese bikes. It doesn't seem like there is an offering for this right now.

Imagine you could get a Taiwanese steel or Ti frame for $1500 with the exact geometry you're looking for. I'm not sure exactly how factory manufacturing is done, but the economies of scale and labor cost must at least be a factor in reducing the cost over small shops in the US.

[Dino Suegiù]

Why is it that custom bikes are so expensive? I get the art form idea and the idea that it's MUSA (or otherwise), manufactured by hand, and a white glove experience.

"Expensive" covers a vast range.

Most ti builders who offer what Mosaic claim: MUSA, sterling reputation, hand-crafted, custom geometry, great customer interaction, lifelong service, even some degree of "art form ideas", white glove treatment, etc, do not approach or exceed the $6,900 Mosaic prices quoted here.

$6,900 f/f/paint is a completely absurd number when one really thinks about. As bob heinatz and others point out, that's not simply "keeping the lights on" money, unless those are incredibly expensive lights as well as Boulder, CO rent somehow equivalent to UES NYC or Pacific Heights SF $/sf. Price other top USA custom titanium builders and see. Say base prices start at $3,000-$3,500 for a 3/2.5 straight-gauge custom frame only and go up from there; it is very hard to reach $6,900, apples to apples (ie flourish to flourish), from almost all of those other also excellent builders.

I see that you are located in Seattle, You may know/of the local legend and titanium master builder there, Bill Davidson. Without knowing his price list, I would bet on at least 5 things: that he can offer 1) a frame equal to a Mosaic, with 2) custom geometry equal to a Mosaic, with 3) service equal to a Mosaic, with 4) a ride equal to a Mosaic, at 5) a price substantially lower than a Mosaic, again apples/apples. And Bill Davidson is by no means the only expert builder in the USA more than capable of delivering that.

Custom titanium is expensive, yes, but most are not in the Mosaic stratosphere.

[FlashUNC]

I'm not expecting builders like Mosaic, Moots, Firefly, etc. to even come close to the price of big box Taiwanese bikes, but I'm wondering if the economies of scale and low labor costs can still be applied to outsourced custom-geo Taiwanese bikes. It doesn't seem like there is an offering for this right now.

Imagine you could get a Taiwanese steel or Ti frame for $1500 with the exact geometry you're looking for. I'm not sure exactly how factory manufacturing is done, but the economies of scale and labor cost must at least be a factor in reducing the cost over small shops in the US.

There is, Colossi is one example. https://www.colossiv5.com/our-juice

Others have mentioned Walty. They exist, but there's risks that come with all that.

[Dino Suegiù]

I'm not expecting builders like Mosaic, Moots, Firefly, etc. to even come close to the price of big box Taiwanese bikes, but I'm wondering if the economies of scale and low labor costs can still be applied to outsourced custom-geo Taiwanese bikes. It doesn't seem like there is an offering for this right now.
I guess that there is no substantial enough demand/market (yet?) for that third niche, or if it would ever even make real economic sense.

One the one hand there are "budget" titanium brands such as Waltly and Carver already mentioned here; Rewel or Nevi in Italy; Leon in France; J&L et al in Taiwan, all now making frames, and I'm sure at least several others.

On the other hand there are semi-custom/custom (in this discussion MUSA) builders among the many mentioned here already, from a Lynskey and Litespeed to Kish/De Salvo/Holland/Potts to Moots/FF/Seven to Mosaic. There is a substantial cost range there, far wider than the actual benefits range in some cases.

So between the two hands I guess there is not enough demand for a third range/territory. Who knows, maybe in the future an excellent slick marketer will figure some schtick out, but I think the experiment has sort of been attempted in the past (Macalu (Excel Sports) and Douglas (Colorado Cyclist) and Airborne, etc., come to mind) and did not ever stick.

With good cheap steel, good cheap carbon, good cheap alu already available in large numbers, I think "good cheap ti" has a really hard road to hoe in that field.

[joosttx]

I'm not expecting builders like Mosaic, Moots, Firefly, etc. to even come close to the price of big box Taiwanese bikes, but I'm wondering if the economies of scale and low labor costs can still be applied to outsourced custom-geo Taiwanese bikes. It doesn't seem like there is an offering for this right now.

Imagine you could get a Taiwanese steel or Ti frame for $1500 with the exact geometry you're looking for. I'm not sure exactly how factory manufacturing is done, but the economies of scale and labor cost must at least be a factor in reducing the cost over small shops in the US.


High end products are pretty close. Add made to measure and I bet they are the same.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50009984273_3500606f7a_o.png

You can spend $11K for a stock high end bike or $13K for a bike that you exactly want. The difference isn't that much for what you are getting and spending.

[prototoast]

"Expensive" covers a vast range.

Most ti builders who offer what Mosaic claim: MUSA, sterling reputation, hand-crafted, custom geometry, great customer interaction, lifelong service, even some degree of "art form ideas", white glove treatment, etc, do not approach or exceed the $6,900 Mosaic prices quoted here.

$6,900 f/f/paint is a completely absurd number when one really thinks about. As bob heinatz and others point out, that's not simply "keeping the lights on" money, unless those are incredibly expensive lights as well as Boulder, CO rent somehow equivalent to UES NYC or Pacific Heights SF $/sf. Price other top USA custom titanium builders and see. Say base prices start at $3,000-$3,500 for a 3/2.5 straight-gauge custom frame only and go up from there; it is very hard to reach $6,900, apples to apples (ie flourish to flourish), from almost all of those other also excellent builders.


I disagree. I think it's pretty easy to get up to the same price ballpark as Mosaic from many titanium builders.

Just look at someone like Carl Strong, who is fairly transparent with his a la carte pricing:

https://www.strongframes.com/frames-and-pricing/road/

3200 for a base titanium frame
+400 for double-butted titanium
+575 for an Enve disc fork
+170 for a Chris King headset (MSRP)
+200 for a cast headbadge
+250 for internal brake routing
+1500 for a fancy paint job (not listed on his site, but I've paid $1500 for a Mosaic-level paint job, and similar to paint options listed by Seven Cycles https://sevencycles.com/paint/portal-scheme.php).

That comes to about $6300 for something comparable. I had a different builder quote me at $300 per hole for internal routing, so for brake (2 holes) + di2 (3 holes), it would have added $1500 to the ~$4000 base frameset price.

I'm not saying Mosaic bikes are a bargain, or that you couldn't find something cheaper, but when you start including all the fancy options that Mosaic offers as standard with the 1-series, the price really isn't out of line with what you'll see from most other titanium builders.

[vespasianus]

I'm not expecting builders like Mosaic, Moots, Firefly, etc. to even come close to the price of big box Taiwanese bikes, but I'm wondering if the economies of scale and low labor costs can still be applied to outsourced custom-geo Taiwanese bikes. It doesn't seem like there is an offering for this right now.

Imagine you could get a Taiwanese steel or Ti frame for $1500 with the exact geometry you're looking for. I'm not sure exactly how factory manufacturing is done, but the economies of scale and labor cost must at least be a factor in reducing the cost over small shops in the US.

You can get a custom steel Tommasini with custom geometry for $3195. That to me, is a great deal. I think people forgot about the custom Italian option. If you don't mind the tube set they use, it is a great option.

But as a counter point, their Ti bike is close to $5.5K with disc mounts - making the RT-1 seem in line with the competition. Honestly, it is a free market. People out there must be willing to pay Mosaic the prices they are asking. Very nice looking frames.

[many_styles]

Last year I as quoted $6900 for Mosaic RT1 frame/fork. Price included paint. Though I am not sure what level of paint. Then I inquired on pricing for RT1 for frame and fork but no paint. It was still $6900.

That was the day Mosaic was not in any of my new bike or used bike buying list.


I think the rest of this thread has been fixated on this #. I didn’t go through the entire thread, but care to shed some light if there were able extras that were added to the frameset; internal brake routing, etc?

As you see some relies above, it can quickly add up.


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[Dino Suegiù]

I disagree. I think it's pretty easy to get up to the same price ballpark as Mosaic from many titanium builders.

Just look at someone like Carl Strong, who is fairly transparent with his a la carte pricing:

https://www.strongframes.com/frames-and-pricing/road/

3200 for a base titanium frame
+400 for double-butted titanium
+575 for an Enve disc fork
+170 for a Chris King headset (MSRP)
+200 for a cast headbadge
+250 for internal brake routing
+1500 for a fancy paint job (not listed on his site, but I've paid $1500 for a Mosaic-level paint job, and similar to paint options listed by Seven Cycles https://sevencycles.com/paint/portal-scheme.php).

That comes to about $6300 for something comparable. I had a different builder quote me at $300 per hole for internal routing, so for brake (2 holes) + di2 (3 holes), it would have added $1500 to the ~$4000 base frameset price.

I'm not saying Mosaic bikes are a bargain, or that you couldn't find something cheaper, but when you start including all the fancy options that Mosaic offers as standard with the 1-series, the price really isn't out of line with what you'll see from most other titanium builders.
Sure, of course other prices approach Mosaic.
But the opposite holds true as well, and so push Mosaic further toward one extreme.
I'm sure an exact apples-apples spec price list from the top 20 USA titanium builders would result in a gap wider than ~$6,300 (Strong) to $6,900 (Mosaic), which is already a substantial gap imo.

[bthomas515]

I am truly fascinated with added costs throughout the custom process. $300 per di2 hole would have never crossed my mind.

[dbnm]

I would encourage everyone to make calls directly to the builders to talk to them about their process and design thoughts.

I spoke to five builders whose complete bike prices ranged from $8500 to $14,500, all with the same components.

[Dino Suegiù]

I am truly fascinated with added costs throughout the custom process. $300 per di2 hole would have never crossed my mind.
No kidding. Seems shockingly high.
I trust prototoast's quote/source, but that really seems very high for a builder to charge that, with the tubes flat on the bench. :eek:

[54ny77]

Well that does it. Tonight I'm gonna go out to eat some Italian food and piss all over the chef and manager for daring to charge me $21 for pasta and sauce that only costs $.92 to make.

Good thing I'll be socially distanced when I say this, gives me enough time to duck outta the way when the osso bucco comes flying at my head.

[Dino Suegiù]

Well that does it. Tonight I'm gonna go out to eat some Italian food and piss all over the chef and manager for daring to charge me $21 for pasta and sauce that only costs $.92 to make.

Good thing I'll be socially distanced when I say this, gives me enough time to duck outta the way when the osso bucco comes flying at my head.

Be careful before and where you piss.

Apparently some "gourmet" pizza place was recently busted for in fact selling "modified" grocery store frozen pizza to their desperate Covid takeout customers, while of course charging $$$$. So the $21.00 / $0.92 may have been very true at least in that case.

[54ny77]

"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorno!"

[Dino Suegiù]

"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorno!"

More like, "It's not really Da Giorgio, it's just DiGiorno!" ;)

[miksibis]

Dino, that was Charleston, SC serving artisanal Costco pizza from the 4 pack! had the evidence in a neighboring trash bin. mike

[Coffee Rider]

I am truly fascinated with added costs throughout the custom process. $300 per di2 hole would have never crossed my mind.

That likely also involves work beyond just drilling the hole, such as reinforcing, etc.

[nmrt]

The $6900 price for Mosaic RT-1 disc includes the following:
1. Frame and fork painted (two-tone paint)
2. CK Headset
3. internally routed brake and shifting

It is not what that $6900 bothers me. It is what it is. For some it might be a great deal if they are into painting how Mosaic paints their frames.
What bothers me is that if I want a bare (non-painted) RT-1 (this is the only butted road bike that Mosaic produces), I will still have to pay $6900!

I think the rest of this thread has been fixated on this #. I didn’t go through the entire thread, but care to shed some light if there were able extras that were added to the frameset; internal brake routing, etc?

As you see some relies above, it can quickly add up.


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[Dino Suegiù]

Dino, that was Charleston, SC serving artisanal Costco pizza from the 4 pack! had the evidence in a neighboring trash bin. mike

Yes, that was it! Thank you for the details. Incredible story, too funny how they were so lazy with the Costco boxes they got caught.

"Artisanal"...never trust that word.

There are some similarities to some of the pricing language/numbers of some of the builders mentioned here.

PS: Ibis was not one of those, in the ti days: fantastic always, and Scott Nicol would have been far funnier and tongue-in-cheek if/when employing words like "artisanal". His eBay ad copy for old Ibis bits he was selling was some of the best ever.

[Dino Suegiù]

That likely also involves work beyond just drilling the hole, such as reinforcing, etc.

I would be slack-jaw stunned if 4 water bottle holes cost $1200 total on a $3000/$5000 frame, though, wouldn't you?

[Coffee Rider]

Sure, of course other prices approach Mosaic.
But the opposite holds true as well, and so push Mosaic further toward one extreme.
I'm sure an exact apples-apples spec price list from the top 20 USA titanium builders would result in a gap wider than ~$6,300 (Strong) to $6,900 (Mosaic), which is already a substantial gap imo.

It's less than a 10% difference and at this price point, I don't think that is going to make a difference to prospective purchasers, especially when you factor in what it will cost to finish the bike. Something else to consider is that Mosaic sells through dealers and Strong sells direct, so there has to be room in the price for dealer margin.

[FlashUNC]

The $6900 price for Mosaic RT-1 disc includes the following:
1. Frame and fork painted (two-tone paint)
2. CK Headset
3. internally routed brake and shifting

It is not what that $6900 bothers me. It is what it is. For some it might be a great deal if they are into painting how Mosaic paints their frames.
What bothers me is that if I want a bare (non-painted) RT-1 (this is the only butted road bike that Mosaic produces), I will still have to pay $6900!

They didn't buy Spectrum Powder and Paint just to ship out unpainted bikes.

At the end of the day, it isn't your name on the downtube saying "Hey, I have Mosaic build this to my strange specifications." It just says Mosaic, and their stuff is mostly painted.

So I get it. They'll build it for you, but it's a polite way of telling a prospect they're not interested in that kind of work.

[prototoast]

I am truly fascinated with added costs throughout the custom process. $300 per di2 hole would have never crossed my mind.

Lynskey charges $100 for an etap frame which involves no holes!

[Dino Suegiù]

The $6900 price for Mosaic RT-1 disc includes the following:
1. Frame and fork painted (two-tone paint)
2. CK Headset
3. internally routed brake and shifting

It is not what that $6900 bothers me. It is what it is. For some it might be a great deal if they are into painting how Mosaic paints their frames.
What bothers me is that if I want a bare (non-painted) RT-1 (this is the only butted road bike that Mosaic produces), I will still have to pay $6900!
No kidding to all that. Either reply "Naked costs $xyz less" or else "Sorry, but we do not offer the RT-1 naked", no? It seems incredibly rude to act as if the paint has (but then doesn't have) an impact on the price.

Just imagine the upcharge if one supplies one's own headset rather than their CK.... :rolleyes:

[jkbrwn]

It's less than a 10% difference and at this price point, I don't think that is going to make a difference to prospective purchasers, especially when you factor in what it will cost to finish the bike. Something else to consider is that Mosaic sells through dealers and Strong sells direct, so there has to be room in the price for dealer margin.

Seven also sells through dealers though and a butted frameset (granted, with no paint) is just below $4000 with an Enve and CK. They don't do internal routing for brakes, but they certainly don't charge for Di2 routing. I respect what Mosaic are doing from an aesthetic perspective but the price does seem high.

With all of that said, none of it matters, because people are buying them and as long as the customer enjoys it, then who cares :)

[weisan]

I remembered reading a post by David Kirk providing some details and insight into the price/cost/reality/economics of a framebuilder. It was sobering.

[Dino Suegiù]

lynskey charges $100 for an etap frame which involves no holes!

Now those guys really have it figured out!

[Coffee Rider]

I would be slack-jaw stunned if 4 water bottle holes cost $1200 total on a $3000/$5000 frame, though, wouldn't you?

I'd be really turned off by charging for the ability to install water bottle cages. I do think $300 per hole is very high. I'm pretty sure I paid about $500 to get a frame retrofitted for electronic, so I think more than that for getting it installed in the first place is high.

[Jeff N.]

What gets me is the big upcharge some folks add for custom geometry (Moots, No22). I mean...how tough can it be?

[buddybikes]

What gets me is the big upcharge some folks add for custom geometry (Moots, No22). I mean...how tough can it be?

Labor hours, especially for the designer and the cutter. I bet a custom frame, with all the back and forth could add up to 1 day of labor.

[Coffee Rider]

What gets me is the big upcharge some folks add for custom geometry (Moots, No22). I mean...how tough can it be?

If I were getting a No. 22, I'd just think of the $500 difference as a discount for getting something stock instead of an upcharge. Parlee charges $1000 extra for custom geometry, which I think is high considering how expensive stock geometry is.

[Jeff N.]

Labor hours, especially for the designer and the cutter. I bet a custom frame, with all the back and forth could add up to 1 day of labor.Does Seven have an upcharge for custom? Firefly? Mosaic? Holland? Did Serotta? Spectrum? MMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmno.

[NoMoreParagon]

I guess that there is no substantial enough demand/market (yet?) for that third niche, or if it would ever even make real economic sense.

One the one hand there are "budget" titanium brands such as Waltly and Carver already mentioned here; Rewel or Nevi in Italy; Leon in France; J&L et al in Taiwan, all now making frames, and I'm sure at least several others.

On the other hand there are semi-custom/custom (in this discussion MUSA) builders among the many mentioned here already, from a Lynskey and Litespeed to Kish/De Salvo/Holland/Potts to Moots/FF/Seven to Mosaic. There is a substantial cost range there, far wider than the actual benefits range in some cases.

So between the two hands I guess there is not enough demand for a third range/territory. Who knows, maybe in the future an excellent slick marketer will figure some schtick out, but I think the experiment has sort of been attempted in the past (Macalu (Excel Sports) and Douglas (Colorado Cyclist) and Airborne, etc., come to mind) and did not ever stick.

With good cheap steel, good cheap carbon, good cheap alu already available in large numbers, I think "good cheap ti" has a really hard road to hoe in that field.


Nevi in Italy definitely not a budget titanium offer. On the opposite. I would rank them up there with Passoni and Bertoletti.
They have more expertise on Titanium than many others custom builders out there and have been involved in very high spec projects outside the biking industry.
They make a custom titanium fork by hand which is something no others have done so well.
Their LA1 version frames are up there with the best.
They were slow to adopt some new tech (flat mount and disc brakes in promis) and they missed the gravel wagon big time (similar to both Passoni and Bertoletti).


Also Italian Ti builder weld their frames in a hyperbaric chambers which add even more costs because
1. The equipment is crazy steep
2. The aesthetic of the weld after a pass in the chamber usually require manual polishing which add labor.

My view is that Mosaic is where it is, because of mainly 3 things
1. Exception work flow management
2. Very good aesthetics
3. A dealer network which they built over time and tried to protect very adamantly. You won’t be able to order directly from them not thru not affiliated dealers (with few exception).

I don’t like at all their paint jobs. It’s overpriced and not that original.
But the raw Ti frames are extraordinary.

I do think they are a bit too focused on their dealers at the expense of the final rider.
At the end it’s working for them so That what matters.


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[Mikej]

Seven also sells through dealers though and a butted frameset (granted, with no paint) is just below $4000 with an Enve and CK. They don't do internal routing for brakes, but they certainly don't charge for Di2 routing. I respect what Mosaic are doing from an aesthetic perspective but the price does seem high.

With all of that said, none of it matters, because people are buying them and as long as the customer enjoys it, then who cares :)

I’ve seen them doing internal brake recently. With a shop team discount, you can’t beat Seven-

[Wakatel_Luum]

As an owner of two Merlin Metalworks Extralight's (1996 & 1998) I'm considering another Merlin (made by Dean) with disc brakes/sloping geometry etc for my 50th in a few years...requiring custom geometry the same as my current bikes is totally FREE! I'm also considering another Tommasini but a Mach 1 Titanium and again custom geometry is totally FREE!

No f...king way am I paying for custom geometry, these marque brands are just fleecing the customer...in my opinion they charge a premium for all the other costs so there should be no legitimate reason for custom geometry.

[John H.]

You never said how new/old the frame is?
Painted or unpainted? And if painted, do you like the paint job?
Rim or disc brake?
What size tire?
Condition?
Any other factors that may make it hard or easy to sell?

Regardless of retail price- These are important factors.

But this is a used custom bike- So price in the used market should be a fraction of what a new one costs.
This is not an unobtainable frame by any means.

[jkbrwn]

I’ve seen them doing internal brake recently. With a shop team discount, you can’t beat Seven-

That’s interesting. I just ordered a Seven through Summer Cycles and internal routing wasn’t an option on road frames. Nor is it on Seven’s order form. In fact, their site explicitly states that they do not offer it to protect the integrity of the frames life.

The only two notes under cable routing are:

Disc Brake : Zip Tie Guides under Down Tube and under Chainstay Rim Brake: Brake Cable Stops at 7:30 on Top Tube

[Jeff N.]

That’s interesting. I just ordered a Seven through Summer Cycles and internal routing wasn’t an option on road frames. Nor is it on Seven’s order form. In fact, their site explicitly states that they do not offer it to protect the integrity of the frames life.

The only two notes under cable routing are:

Disc Brake : Zip Tie Guides under Down Tube and under Chainstay Rim Brake: Brake Cable Stops at 7:30 on Top TubeThat's correct. Unless Seven has made changes that I haven't heard, internal brake cable routing is NOT an option. It wasn't on Spectrums either...and Spectrums were made by Seven. (I'm talkin' ROAD bikes here, not friggin' MB's.)

[Matthew]

Just buy a Moots.

[John H.]

Internal routing is an option at Seven.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B9hTJiPns8F/
But I don't think it is offered on every type of frame. Needs to be 1" stays, I am not sure what else.


That’s interesting. I just ordered a Seven through Summer Cycles and internal routing wasn’t an option on road frames. Nor is it on Seven’s order form. In fact, their site explicitly states that they do not offer it to protect the integrity of the frames life.

The only two notes under cable routing are:

Disc Brake : Zip Tie Guides under Down Tube and under Chainstay Rim Brake: Brake Cable Stops at 7:30 on Top Tube

[unterhausen]

Of all the things you could upcharge for, custom geometry is probably the most reasonable. Back and forth with the customer, possibility of something going wrong, individual setups for tube and fixtures, etc. Not addressing the baseline price, but it doesn't seem that out of line to me. I always figured that most people just aren't willing to spend what it takes for a framebuilder to make a decent living. Which is why many of them don't stick around that long.

[jkbrwn]

Internal routing is an option at Seven.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B9hTJiPns8F/
But I don't think it is offered on every type of frame. Needs to be 1" stays, I am not sure what else.

Considering Kelly is sponsored by Seven, I’d take any bike she’s riding with a pinch of salt.

[happycampyer]

I disagree. I think it's pretty easy to get up to the same price ballpark as Mosaic from many titanium builders.

Just look at someone like Carl Strong, who is fairly transparent with his a la carte pricing:

https://www.strongframes.com/frames-and-pricing/road/

3200 for a base titanium frame
+400 for double-butted titanium
+575 for an Enve disc fork
+170 for a Chris King headset (MSRP)
+200 for a cast headbadge
+250 for internal brake routing
+1500 for a fancy paint job (not listed on his site, but I've paid $1500 for a Mosaic-level paint job, and similar to paint options listed by Seven Cycles https://sevencycles.com/paint/portal-scheme.php).

That comes to about $6300 for something comparable. I had a different builder quote me at $300 per hole for internal routing, so for brake (2 holes) + di2 (3 holes), it would have added $1500 to the ~$4000 base frameset price.

I'm not saying Mosaic bikes are a bargain, or that you couldn't find something cheaper, but when you start including all the fancy options that Mosaic offers as standard with the 1-series, the price really isn't out of line with what you'll see from most other titanium builders.I have started and stopped typing replies to this thread, and this ^ is basically what I was going to say. Some companies are more cagey than others when it comes to pricing their frames (including costs for extras). When you add in the costs for common upgrades such as internal brake routing, etc., the prices of the various premium brands are closer than they might appear. The base prices for Moots have crept up over the years, and when you add in extras, it's pretty easy to get into the mid-$5K range. And if you want certain details like a tapered headtube, your choices narrow.

What gets me is the big upcharge some folks add for custom geometry (Moots, No22). I mean...how tough can it be?
Talk to these builders and you will get what I think is a good explanation—a shop that is set up for production has a different workflow than a shop that is set up for custom. Dave Kirk had a good discussion about this somewhere as well. In addition, a company like Moots with stock sizes can cut tubes for a batch of frames, and the jigs etc. are all set up so it's easier to produce multiple frames at a time. The efficiency means time and cost savings, which are passed on to customers. For the customer who wants a one-off, the cost is higher.

[Dino Suegiù]

What gets me is the big upcharge some folks add for custom geometry (Moots, No22). I mean...how tough can it be?

Talk to these builders and you will get what I think is a good explanation—a shop that is set up for production has a different workflow than a shop that is set up for custom. Dave Kirk had a good discussion about this somewhere as well. In addition, a company like Moots with stock sizes can cut tubes for a batch of frames, and the jigs etc. are all set up so it's easier to produce multiple frames at a time. The efficiency means time and cost savings, which are passed on to customers. For the customer who wants a one-off, the cost is higher.
As happycamper wrote, exactly.

The two worlds (stock versus custom) are very different, especially as the shop gets smaller in size. I recall Jim Kish, who is a one-man ti-only custom shop (who even stopped making steel frames because it was no longer cost-efficient/competitive) tried to do some production/stock geo frames, and he just couldn't make it work economically for the price reduction he had to ask for them.

At his one-man output of ~50 frames/year (by comparison Moots build ~1,000/year) there was no gain in "mass" producing some (iirc maybe 15/20 at most) stock frames at one time. The jigging for the 4 or 5 stock sizes wasn't efficient enough, and then the built but unsold frames needed to be stored, etc. He said it was a logistical headache. A builder like that lives on pretty tight margins apparently. Everything has to sell and one-in/one-out custom-only work turned out to be the most cost-efficient for him and other small-batch builders.

That said, I do not know how shops that offer both stock and custom calculate their cost increase % for custom geometry.

[54ny77]

Ok well now that really does it. Tomorrow I'm gonna go out to eat some Italian food and piss all over the chef and manager for daring to charge me $21 for pasta and sauce that only costs $.92 to make. Oh and I'm going to demand--DEMAND!--that the pasta be Le Veneziane gluten free, that the sauce be devoid of any cream or milk product, and to please substitute any salt used in the recipe with Rapha artisanal organic sustainably produced Himalayan sea salt. And I expect--EXPECT!--that I will be charged the same price because there should be no legitimate reason to upcharge me. Just because.

:bike: ;)

[Coffee Rider]

Bike purchases are as much about rationalizations as anything else. In that same vein, most people who get custom bikes seem to think they were a good value in the sense that they got what they really wanted.

[cyan]

I remembered reading a post by David Kirk providing some details and insight into the price/cost/reality/economics of a framebuilder. It was sobering.

Interested in learning more, could you point us to the post?

[weisan]

Sure...it's in the context of this thread that he started but more specifically in post #16.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=2621397

[many_styles]

Sure...it's in the context of this thread that he started but more specifically in post #16.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=2621397


Thanks for sharing... I hope this shed some light to some people.


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[msriddle]

Mosaic does indeed love Mosaic....
I was interested in one of their frames that Pros Closet had a year or so ago. I reached out to Mosaic and even offered to pay for a drawing and or other detailed info on the frame. They had no interest in helping what so ever. I’d never buy anything from them or pros closet.

I’d Look at Moots, Bixxis, Stelbel TI9 or any number of other ti options.

[NoMoreParagon]

Mosaic does indeed love Mosaic....
I was interested in one of their frames that Pros Closet had a year or so ago. I reached out to Mosaic and even offered to pay for a drawing and or other detailed info on the frame. They had no interest in helping what so ever. I’d never buy anything from them or pros closet.

I’d Look at Moots, Bixxis, Stelbel TI9 or any number of other ti options.


Well they didn’t even send me the bikecad file of the bike I purchased from them thru a dealer, when I asked.
As I said I find them very focused on dealers.
It’s just the way their biz model is working I guess


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[joosttx]

Mosaic does indeed love Mosaic....
I was interested in one of their frames that Pros Closet had a year or so ago. I reached out to Mosaic and even offered to pay for a drawing and or other detailed info on the frame. They had no interest in helping what so ever. I’d never buy anything from them or pros closet.

I’d Look at Moots, Bixxis, Stelbel TI9 or any number of other ti options.

Yeah those Mosaic bastards built me a bike, did everything I asked, and delivered it before the promised due date and had the freaking nerve to thank me even before I paid them in full for their work. What jerks? Next time, I’m going to try and nickel and dime them, get more than they offer and have them stroke my ego and babysit my kids. I really hate good businesses.

[Jeff N.]

Well they didn’t even send me the bikecad file of the bike I purchased from them thru a dealer, when I asked.
As I said I find them very focused on dealers.
It’s just the way their biz model is working I guess


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI ordered my Mosaic RT-1 directly from them but I knew all my numbers/options (angles, lengths, finish, TT slope, 1" stays, 44mm HT, rear cable routing, pump peg/chain hanger, rim brakes, etc.). THERE is the difference...they'd rather not deal with the "what's your inseam" BS...they'd rather let a shop go through that rigomerol. That's my guess, anyway. It REALLY helps to know your numbers. It cuts straight to the chase.

[fried bake]

Mosaic does indeed love Mosaic....
I was interested in one of their frames that Pros Closet had a year or so ago. I reached out to Mosaic and even offered to pay for a drawing and or other detailed info on the frame. They had no interest in helping what so ever. I’d never buy anything from them or pros closet.

I’d Look at Moots, Bixxis, Stelbel TI9 or any number of other ti options.


I had a similar experience when I bought a brand new RT2 from the pros closet and contacted Mosaic to ask about warranty registration. Mind you, this was a NEW bike, not pre-owned, and I was still in the glow of love. The young man who took my call informed me that these things work through dealers and since TPC is not an authorized dealer he couldn’t help me. That conversation conveyed to me how small of an operation they must have. And it killed some of the ownership buzz. Lovely bike (which I sold at a big discount back to TPC) because it was a little too big.


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[FlashUNC]

Load Speedvagen pricing complaints thread.

Find and Replace "Speedvagen" with "Mosaic"

Republish as Mosaic pricing complaints thread.

/end

[AngryScientist]

Let's put a fork in this one, the last few pages have seemingly nothing to do with what the OP asked.