Building your own bike

[saab2000]

I have sometimes considered trying to build my own bike and now have the chance to buy a manual describing the process step by step.

Have any of you normal civilians ever attemped something like this?

Sounds kinda fun, but hard work and without all the tools and jigs seems like a monumental task.

Thoughts from the peanut gallery?

[atmo]

I have sometimes considered trying to build my own bike and now have the chance to buy a manual describing the process step by step.
who is manual atmo?

[Kevan]

2x4's don't work.

[saab2000]

who is manual atmo?

Ortega or Ramirez.

Or Paterek.

[BURCH]

I built my first nice road and mtn bikes in college from borrowed, begged, and used parts. It was not that hard with the right tools and help.

Luckily for me, I found a shop in Pittsburgh called Kraynicks and the owner, Gerry, always let people use his stands and tools and most importantly his knowledge. There wasn't any cheating though. Gerry always let you tinker and suffer for a while before throwing you a tip or showing you the proper technique.

http://www.panoramafactory.com/kraynick/index.html

Good luck and enjoy! There is definately satisfaction riding something that you built.

[Ginger]

Do a search, there have been threads before.

There's one on a woman in Austrailia who built her own, and several on classes from Don Ferris I think...and Hot tubes...



Manual? Paterek Manual perhaps?

Doesn't everyone who's thought of building a frame have one of those?


(Burch...I think he means tubes and torches build...not parts build...I could be wrong...)

[Serpico]

.

[Serotta PETE]

If it is something that you want to do - then you should do it. Years ago I knew some folks that did this....They rode the bike once and it then sat in the corner.

There are years and years of experience (good and bad) that folks like KELLY (SEROTTA),SACHS, KIRK, Goodrich, Barry, Spectrum, Weigle have that can not be captured in a book or even a week class.

Just my 2 cents.....

PETE

[saab2000]

Obviously, doing it with one of these masters would be great.

Probably it is not a good idea for a number of reasons, but I do have a lot of time on my hands and this idea pops up every couple of years.

If I did it I would want to end up with a nice bike and not a piece of crap.

[Kevan]

http://www.hottubes.com/ShopWebSite/Frame%20Building%20Class.html

[Climb01742]

saab, ask obtuse about this.

[Ginger]

If I did it I would want to end up with a nice bike and not a piece of crap.

See now....

If I build a bike I'll never expect it to stand up to the quality and consistancy that exist in the other bikes I've ridden in the past. Yes. It will be a bike, and yes, I'll ride the crap out of it. But I never expect it to exhibit the same characteristics as a bike from an experienced builder. Other than it's a bike.

[dauwhe]

I'd be worried that a small mistake, one I might not even notice, could have quite severe consequences, if a frame failed on the road... As e-Richie says, "that frame ends up on the open road, in traffic, and used at speeds that approach the takeoff and landing speeds of a small airplane."

Dave

[sbornia]

You've probably seen this before: http://www.bikeschool.com/

$2200 for a 2-week class on either brazing or TIG welding.

[dave thompson]

I have sometimes considered trying to build my own bike and now have the chance to buy a manual describing the process step by step.

Have any of you normal civilians ever attemped something like this?

Sounds kinda fun, but hard work and without all the tools and jigs seems like a monumental task.

Thoughts from the peanut gallery?
Maybe something like this?: http://www.brewracingframes.com/id56.htm

[saab2000]

Thanks for the links! Good info.

[mjb266]

I just did it and it was one of the most worthwhile cycling related things I've done in a long time. Makes you really understand and appreciate so many aspects of frames, framebuilding, and framebuilders. Now I have a cool fixed gear.

If you want to borrow the Paternek Manual or Talbott's Book let me know and I'll drop them in the mail.

[atmo]

i'm thinking of filling my own teeth atmo.

[sspielman]

"The lyfe is so short, and the crafte so long to lerne..."

[mjb266]

Filling your own teeth would make you appreciate a dentist to the same degree that building your own frame would make you appreciate a real frame builder...

[gdw]

Go for it. You can build about anything if you have do the research and have patience and access to the right tools.

[pbbob]

I wasn't getting any challenges out of my work so I challenged myself last year at this time and took the lugged steel class at ubi. I have just started on building frame number 2 this month.
the first one was a ridable piece of crap and the second hopefully a little less so.
what ubi really taught me is the fundamentals of safe practise when it comes to building a frame so you don't burn, cut, blind, inhale or stick something with flux on it in your mouth [ saw some dude who wasn't paying attention do that] or otherwise cause harm.

Saab: if you want to look at some of the paterek dvd's on frame building I can loan you them to you. you can get a real good idea of his way to build a frame.

[saab2000]

i'm thinking of filling my own teeth atmo.

And I didn't accept that the people who used to fly me to Europe were the only people who could do it.

I'm not talking about building a moon rocket here.

[SoCalSteve]

My understanding is that it is very cost prohibitive because of the start up costs of tools, the jig, etc...

I once thought about it myself and then was told that its a high $$$ thing to do.

Good luck!

Steve

[Louis]

Whatever you do, make sure that it does not look like a Peg...

[Archibald]

Can't be done.

Impossible.

First you have to be initiated into the guild and learn the secret handshake before suffering years of humilation as an acolyte to a perverse and abusive Master. I hope you like wearing a ball gag.

:banana:

[saab2000]

I hope you like wearing a ball gag.

:banana:


Only when I am wearing a$$less chaps. Wait, 'a$$less chaps' is redundant, isn't it?

[Ginger]

My understanding is that it is very cost prohibitive because of the start up costs of tools, the jig, etc...

I once thought about it myself and then was told that its a high $$$ thing to do.

Good luck!

Steve
And you believed them?

If you go into it with the thought of becoming a frame builder, and you need everything new and shiny and can't contemplate putting torch to steel without a fancy jig instead of something that you built that will work for a one-off...
yeah, it's gonna be expensive. But if you go into it with an interest and an ability to improvise? Not so spendy...

But I guess it depends on what you consider expensive.

I haven't looked into it lately, but you would probably spend almost as much as you might on a thrifty custom frame and fork...so it isn't about saving money, it's about learning some details about something that interests you.

[slowgoing]

Go for it! And post some pics.

[manet]

i'm thinking of filling my own teeth atmo.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mpDdSErO8c

[atmo]

And I didn't accept that the people who used to fly me to Europe were the only people who could do it.

I'm not talking about building a moon rocket here.
my inner issue that i will suppress here is that
there is some red tape that allows for that some
can fly up there with the other pilots atmo. you
gonna make a bicycle and take it in traffic - with
the drivers, the pedestrians, the messengers, the
mailmen, and the others?

bicycles are vehicles that are used on the open
road. it's noble that anyone would want to exercise
(exorcise) a creative bent, but why do some think
of making a bicycle as if it were pottery, or a basket,
or some other harmless, sit-on-a-shelf-to-be-admired
objet d'art (french for object d'art)? this is is often
discussed on the framebuilder lists, and never gets
resolved atmo.

[cpg]

if that Ferris "character" can do it, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume ANYONE can do it? :)

Curt

[chrisroph]

Kinda. In the infancy of mtn bikes. My roommate built baja race cars so he was an expert welder with a great shop. Another friend was a cyclist with access to a machine shop of his own. We designed some mtn bikes, procured some straight gauge tubesets, mitred them on some large drill presses, built a table, and then had my roommate weld everything together. I brazed on the fixtures, like the cantilever bosses, and rattle canned the thing camo. It weighed a ton and handled like cheeeet. And, on a 3 day mtn bike backpack trip in the columbia river gorge, one of the front cantilever bosses snapped off on a steep dirt downhill. I was able to throw the bike sideways and skid it to a stop.

My brother still has that bike.

[oracle]

my inner issue that i will suppress here is that
there is some red tape that allows for that some
can fly up there with the other pilots atmo. you
gonna make a bicycle and take it in traffic - with
the drivers, the pedestrians, the messengers, the
mailmen, and the others?

bicycles are vehicles that are used on the open
road. it's noble that anyone would want to exercise
(exorcise) a creative bent, but why do some think
of making a bicycle as if it were pottery, or a basket,
or some other harmless, sit-on-a-shelf-to-be-admired
objet d'art (french for object d'art)? this is is often
discussed on the framebuilder lists, and never gets
resolved atmo.


you obviously don't understand baskets....

[Climb01742]

there are folks who boil water. there are folks who throw together a few ingredients. there are cooks. there are chefs. there are chefs who get 3 michelin stars.

i'd encourage anyone who, like saab, has the hankering to connect some tubes. but we, and he, know that the creation wouldn't be a 3 star ride, a la richie. but why the heck not mess around in the bike kitchen?

[72gmc]

That's an excellent point, atmo. But I take that kind of knowledge on faith if I buy a mass-production bicycle, don't I? Faith that someone in the production cycle knew how to make a frame that is safe in the real world?

How do new framebuilders start out unless someone--builder, buyer--is willing to assume this risk?

[swoop]

what would shay do?

shay's dad bought him a torch and some tubing speced for pegoretti. little shay would turn the flame onto the tubes and started a bunch of small fires. the cat died from burns.

at night the local framebuilders from the forum came and worked on the bike, shay would find a tube mitered or a new lug filed. he'd turn the flame on the pieces again knowing he was making his dream bike.
and again at night the builders came and did their best until shay believed he's built a masterpiece.

shay jumped on the bike and rolled into traffic right in front of a truck and died. he died a master builder.

[cpg]

but make sure your health and dental insurance are current. For real.

Curt

[fiamme red]

you obviously don't understand baskets....http://www.richardsachs.com/articles/rsachsriv.html

She is a massage therapist now and before that she was making really good baskets.

Yes, Deb decided to have a career change three years ago. Before that she made period correct baskets, and was a handweaver. She has been invited to the White House to show her stuff.

Bush or Clinton?

Clinton. Yeah, it was Clinton.

Did the Clintons have a basket?

Well, I don't know who gets to keep it. I think it actually belongs to the American public. It belongs to the people of America because a basket is given to the White House but it doesn't belong to the Clintons. It was kind of neat and I think at least five successive years during that period she was also voted to be among the 200 best craftspeople in the country. She hasn't forgotten how to do all of that, she just doesn't do it for money anymore.

[Archibald]

if that Ferris "character" can do it, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume ANYONE can do it? :)

Curt
Bueller? Anyone?

[cpg]

That's an excellent point, atmo. But I take that kind of knowledge on faith if I buy a mass-production bicycle, don't I? Faith that someone in the production cycle knew how to make a frame that is safe in the real world?

How do new framebuilders start out unless someone--builder, buyer--is willing to assume this risk?

The traditional route is to work in the industry. An apprenticeship of sorts. Tried and true. It's the best route. That way customers aren't the builder's lab rats.

Curt

[Ginger]

Faith that someone in the production cycle knew how to make a frame that is safe in the real world?


I've seen enough bikes of various makes and models come off the trail and road in unrideable condition to say that you probably shouldn't trust production bikes. :) And I don't even work in a bike shop...I bet there are stories out there...

[davids]

i'm thinking of filling my own teeth atmo.
If I built my own frame, I'd be filling my teeth with tarmacadam.

[Ginger]

Actually. The failures I've seen from mass market bikes is the one thing that makes me think I could probably build one that stayed together as well or better than many of those...


I'd still have someone else do the fork...but that's just me.

[fiamme red]

http://www.littlefishbicycles.com/frame/

http://www.littlefishbicycles.com/audax_i_pics/index.html

http://www.littlefishbicycles.com/audax_ii_pics/index.html

[72gmc]

Thanks, cpg. That's the route I would be most interested in taking.

Just for fun, if you feel like sharing: what sort of trade school or other formalized welding/engineering/fabrication study is necessary prior to framebuilding? Metallurgy?

Not trying to get any secret recipes, just wondering what sort of practical knowledge goes along with the passion.

Edit: begging your pardon, saab. Not trying to steal your thread, just very interested in your question.

[Climb01742]

but make sure your health and dental insurance are current. For real.

+1
go real slow at first. on grass. wear full pads.

[oracle]

http://www.richardsachs.com/articles/rsachsriv.html

She is a massage therapist now and before that she was making really good baskets.

Yes, Deb decided to have a career change three years ago. Before that she made period correct baskets, and was a handweaver. She has been invited to the White House to show her stuff.

Bush or Clinton?

Clinton. Yeah, it was Clinton.

Did the Clintons have a basket?

Well, I don't know who gets to keep it. I think it actually belongs to the American public. It belongs to the people of America because a basket is given to the White House but it doesn't belong to the Clintons. It was kind of neat and I think at least five successive years during that period she was also voted to be among the 200 best craftspeople in the country. She hasn't forgotten how to do all of that, she just doesn't do it for money anymore.


thats funny.... i was just trying to point out how dangerous a poorly made basket could be... no offence to you , e-mo, or your wife...

[saab2000]

Edit: begging your pardon, saab. Not trying to steal your thread, just very interested in your question.

YOu are not stealing the thread. I am reading all responses with great interest.

I am not sure that building a bike built of my own and taking it on the streets is exactly akin to walking around with a bottle of nitro glycerin, but maybe it is.

BTW, I do have full health and dental insurance, though my company is doing its best job to make it unaffordable.

We'll see what happens. Any first effort would be lugged. Somehow I think welding ultra thin tubes has got to be harder than brazing. That is not to dismiss the craft of brazing as easy. But somehow I think that more damage can be done to a very thin tube with the higher temps of welding. I could be wrong, though that would be a first..... :D

[oracle]

YOu are not stealing the thread. I am reading all responses with great interest.

I am not sure that building a bike built of my own and taking it on the streets is exactly akin to walking around with a bottle of nitro glycerin, but maybe it is.

BTW, I do have full health and dental insurance, though my company is doing its best job to make it unaffordable.

We'll see what happens. Any first effort would be lugged. Somehow I think welding ultra thin tubes has got to be harder than brazing. That is not to dismiss the craft of brazing as easy. But somehow I think that more damage can be done to a very thin tube with the higher temps of welding. I could be wrong, though that would be a first..... :D

don't tell them about building your own frame, or they'll increase your rates...

[cpg]

Thanks, cpg. That's the route I would be most interested in taking.

Just for fun, if you feel like sharing: what sort of trade school or other formalized welding/engineering/fabrication study is necessary prior to framebuilding? Metallurgy?

Not trying to get any secret recipes, just wondering what sort of practical knowledge goes along with the passion.

Edit: begging your pardon, saab. Not trying to steal your thread, just very interested in your question.

None of the education is necessary but certainly it would be helpful. Still most of that stuff can be learned on the job. I guess the only things that seem to be necessary is the ability work with your hands, patience and the willingness work for low wages. That's not whining though. Just reality. It's a tough way to make a buck. Still, I'm not interested in giving it up.

Curt

[cpg]

YOu are not stealing the thread. I am reading all responses with great interest.

I am not sure that building a bike built of my own and taking it on the streets is exactly akin to walking around with a bottle of nitro glycerin, but maybe it is.

BTW, I do have full health and dental insurance, though my company is doing its best job to make it unaffordable.

We'll see what happens. Any first effort would be lugged. Somehow I think welding ultra thin tubes has got to be harder than brazing. That is not to dismiss the craft of brazing as easy. But somehow I think that more damage can be done to a very thin tube with the higher temps of welding. I could be wrong, though that would be a first..... :D

You're correct. Welding is more difficult than brazing unless you already know how to weld. Lugs would be a good place to start. One thing to consider is a frame building class might seem expensive compared to just figuring it out on your own but with most classes you will walk out with a finished frame and fewer bad habits than going into it blind. Besides UBI, I'd recommend Doug Fattic's classes.

Curt

[mosca]

I think you have to ask yourself do you want a nice bike or do you want to build bikes. If you just want a nice bike, buy it. If you like working with your hands and want to learn the framebuilding craft, I'd highly recommend taking a course somewhere so that you can avoid the painful and potentially dangerous first part of the learning curve.

I took the UBI brazing course a few years ago and had a ball, so I can highly recommend that option if you have the time and the bucks. I don't ever expect to build professionally, but would love to pursue it as a hobby as soon as my situation allows.

You likely won't build a masterpiece the first time out, but there's no reason you can't build a safe, attractive, fun bike if you have the proper guidance.

[gdw]

I think that there is more of a margin of error in bike building than many of us are aware of. Have you ever taken a look at some of those Italian classics after the paint has been stripped? Ever examined the mitered tubes brazed into the bottom bracket shell of a classic Japanese produced Bridgestones? Remember those Peugeot PX-10's from the 70's? The workmanship leaves a lot to be desired to put it mildly but those bikes ride well and seem to survive more than their share of abuse.

[Archibald]

None of the education is necessary but certainly it would be helpful. Still most of that stuff can be learned on the job. I guess the only things that seem to be necessary is the ability work with your hands, patience and the willingness work for low wages. That's not whining though. Just reality. It's a tough way to make a buck. Still, I'm not interested in giving it up.

Curt
Don't underestimate how dangerous it is. If you mix in one part Mechanical Engineer, one part Mad Scientist, one part Alchemist, and one part Artist, you might end up looking something like this guy
http://curtgoodrich.com/popups/Frame2.jpg
and just how frikken' scary would that be?!


screwed that up. Hang on while I edit it....let me try again. Fock, screwed again! Who frikken' designed Goodrichs' site!

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[J.Greene]

Yeah, I have done it a few times with more on the way. If your wanting a one off frame, just buy one. You could have a fleet of atmo's for what the obsession will eventually cost. If you'd like to tinker with it. Go for it. I'd reccomend professional help to shorten the learning curve a bunch.

JG

[timto]

I went to a framebuilding class in August and it gave me a greater appreciation for the work / investment involved.

For me it was not the end result of a frame I was looking for but a kickstart down the path of being able to build my own (for myself only). Because I love bikes, I want to develop a skill in this area and building my own frame(s) is the ultimate expression of my love of the sport on the equipment side of things.

It was not to have a gem of a bike the first time around. It will not be to sell / market bikes handbuilt by me.

The equipment investment can be small or great depending on how much you want to automate and get fancy with stuff. But going to a class is a very quick and excellent way to see/feel what you 'should' be shooting for in terms of heating, tolerances, protocols, setup etc.

I'm glad I went and didn't just read from a book. But I'm glad I have a paterek manual as well.

I'll primarily work with handtools but made the investment in a surface table. Otherwise it will be files/hacksaws, oxy/acet. I will be limited by my skills / experience - not by my tools.

I will build with basic tubing for a long time, and work on refining my skills and craftsmanship. I have no pretenses for it being a work of art. My priorities will be sound construction before aesthetics. I will ask for help when appropriate (there are many resources for this) and respect experience that has been earned while I'm earning my own.

The journey is what I'm after. Yes and I will always be a consumer of frames too because I can't get enough of this stuff - I will be in line for a sachs one day too. Only a sachs is a sachs. But a bike made by me will be it's own unique meaning for me and my personal sense of accomplishment and involvement in cycling.

Just have realistic expectations and know what you are trying to get out of the endeavor.

timto

[72gmc]

Still, I'm not interested in giving it up. Curt

Glad for that. The world needs more Goodrich frames. Thanks for the answer.

[72gmc]

This thread is the same reason I try to sneak away to the E.F. Payne fly rod shop whenever I visit Sisters, Oregon: "How cool would it be to try to make that with my own hands?"

No fantasies about matching the functional art I'm looking at. But a desire to know more of the how and why.

Go for it, saab. It's a worthy adventure.

[atmo]

threads like this - though interesting - make me
wish our trade had standards and/or was regulated,
even if it was simple, as in what they do for keirin
framebuilders. as it is, anyone can build a frame. that's
fine by me. but the moment that person gives or sells
a frame to another and said frame is used as a bicycle
on an open road, in traffic, that builder is competing
with all the builders that take nothing for granted. in
my trade, part of that responsibility includes some form
of liability coverage in case there is an, er - issue. i am
well aware that an insurance policy is not the be all/end all,
and that a good lawyer can find holes in most anything,
but atmo it is not prudent to make that second frame
that may eventually find its way under another unless
you are armed for the task. uninsured builders are my
mortal enemies atmo. well, kinda' sorta'.

as you can tell, this means alot to me, and - as posted
earlier - this subject comes up routinely on the frame-
builder message boards. fast forward: to put frames in
the public domain without coverage = slumming atmo.

[BURCH]

I feel a little foolish after reading some other posts. I thought that you were talking about putting a bike together. Like buying the frame and components and justing building a bike that way. :crap: You were asking about building a frame!

I absolutely have never attempted that!

[Climb01742]

richie's point is a good one. i was assuming saab was doing it for his own use/amusement/edification/gratification. building to sell is (to continue my food metaphor) a whole other kettle of phish.

[72gmc]

All of my posts were made under the same premise--that this creation would be just for the maker. An experience, not a vocation.

[Fat Robert]

i would never ride anything that i made with my own hands

i've tried to make lots of things with my hands

my hands don't make

not even 5mph

no way

never

[Ginger]

I didn't see anywhere that said Saab was going into production, just that he wanted to make a frame for himself. And that is how I framed my answers. It's a different world than building frames for sale.

If he's willing to take the risk on a frame he builds himself, more power to him.

[jwprolo]

Maybe an appropriate analogy would be aircraft enthusiasts? It is certainly an area where there is the possiblility for catastrophy. However, the only option is not to buy from a certified, tested producer. Having been to Oshkosh, the Experamental Aircraft Assoc. expo many times, there exists many possiblities for the home builder. I think the tinkerer and experamentor is an important part of the sport- aircraft or cycling. The EAA does have a certification procedure where construction methods and techniques need to be approved before being certified for flight. However, I don't belive that ultralights have the same regulations- you can build it and fly it with out any regulations last time I checked. I suppose something similar could happen for bicycles, as the EAA was a grass roots orginization; a sanctioning body of small crafters could be established if the desire existed. It seems the larger problem is the widespread perception that a bicycle is a toy, not a vehicle--to that end I agree with you.

But as someone who is a tinkerer, who is building my own frame, runs multiple operating systems on my computer, is collecting parts to build my own electric car, I don't know if the danger of failure is significant engough. Sure, I've broken stuff along the way- but far better to do that than to have always just assumed that other people did stuff and it just works for some reason unknown. At the same time- I would probably not be comfortable with selling my homebuilt bike, car or airplane.

saab- I ordered most my supplies from ceeway. When I did I had them throw in some cheap lugs and tubes for a main triangle. I am practicing with those materials, and plan to do destructive testing to find out how I did, and what to improve.

[atmo]

I didn't see anywhere that said Saab was going into production, just that he wanted to make a frame for himself. And that is how I framed my answers. It's a different world than building frames for sale.

If he's willing to take the risk on a frame he builds himself, more power to him.
agreed on that ginger atmo -
but what about that bicycle out in traffic, on
the roads that you, me, and others populate?
should something happen whilst atop, and
the uncontrollable urge to fall in front of a
fleet of taxis arises, it costs.
just sayin' in a playful kinda' way atmo...

[dave thompson]

From CyclingNews, March 21, 2003:

60:aday and Pegoretti Cicli launch Italian based frame building school
Pegoretti Cicli and tour organisers 60:aday are launching what they claim to be the first ever Italian-based frame building school, enabling a limited number of people to get a hands-on experience of how to build a bicycle frame.

To be held at Pegoretti's workshop in Trento, Italy, and taught by one of the real masters of Italian frame building, Dario Pegoretti, the school will take place over seven days in June and July and will give an insight into the mysteries of frame building, covering topics such as biomechanics, material selection, frame geometry and general hands on frame construction.

Once the course is completed, the students will have a bare frame ready to be painted.

The cost of the course is €4450, with two start dates, June 29 and July 13.

[72gmc]

While lurking on a framebuilder forum lately I saw advice to the effect of: put some stuff together, then saw it apart to understand what you've done before you go further. Focus on the parts before the whole.

Seems sage to me.

[gdw]

"but what about that bicycle out in traffic, on
the roads that you, me, and others populate?
should something happen whilst atop, and
the uncontrollable urge to fall in front of a
fleet of taxis arises, it costs.
just sayin' in a playful kinda' way atmo...'

You play the game and take your chances. Something tells me that Saab has enough common sense to decide whether his future project, if he decides to go through with it, will see the road or not.

[J.Greene]

agreed on that ginger atmo -
but what about that bicycle out in traffic, on
the roads that you, me, and others populate?
should something happen whilst atop, and
the uncontrollable urge to fall in front of a
fleet of taxis arises, it costs.
just sayin' in a playful kinda' way atmo...


track and cross are the answer......

JG

[Louis]

agreed on that ginger atmo -
but what about that bicycle out in traffic, on
the roads that you, me, and others populate?
should something happen whilst atop, and
the uncontrollable urge to fall in front of a
fleet of taxis arises, it costs.
just sayin' in a playful kinda' way atmo...

Maybe we should have yearly bike inspections? Goodness knows what happens after a frame leaves the LBS.

[atmo]

"but what about that bicycle out in traffic, on
the roads that you, me, and others populate?
should something happen whilst atop, and
the uncontrollable urge to fall in front of a
fleet of taxis arises, it costs.
just sayin' in a playful kinda' way atmo...'

You play the game and take your chances. Something tells me that Saab has enough common sense to decide whether his future project, if he decides to go through with it, will see the road or not.
this issue, for me, is not about saab. it's an across the
board issue. his flight buddies face regulations in the
sky. on the ground, around a courtyard - fine - go ride
yer bike. but to take it into traffic, with schoolbuses,
and delivery men, and your wife and the kids! what
happens if a widget unwidgets itself and the guy veers
to the left instead of the right????????????

[Archibald]

what happens if a widget unwidgets itself and the guy veers
to the left instead of the right????????????
It's evolutionary, baby!

:banana:

[Ginger]

agreed on that ginger atmo -
but what about that bicycle out in traffic, on
the roads that you, me, and others populate?
should something happen whilst atop, and
the uncontrollable urge to fall in front of a
fleet of taxis arises, it costs.
just sayin' in a playful kinda' way atmo...


I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. But it could be said that people are idiots for riding bikes to begin with:

Last January someone I know had the steerer on a bontrager fork fail on them. They broke several cervical vertebra but survived.
Over the years I've seen other manufacturer's equipment fail catastrophically on the road and trail due to manufacturing issues. Heck, I've seen nasty accidents caused by blownout sidewalls on tires.

Just say'n in a not so playful kind of way.

Are the odds better that something bad will happen on a first bike? possibly. would you be silly to push the envelope on the first bike you built? possibly.

I really appreciate and understand your stance. In many ways, you're correct. But I think this audience is a different one than your framebuilder forums. And I think that the entire industry needs regulation...not just someone in their garage with a torch building their first bike.

Yes. There are sensible ways to go about learning how to build a frame and not so sensible ways.

If a master never built a first frame, they would never be a master.

[atmo]

It's evolutionary, baby!

:banana:
say something helpful atmo.
few things matter to me like this issue matters to
me. take a stance or else i'll be your next dentist atmo.

[gdw]

The world is full of what ifs. Risk is part of life. I'd feel safer with a couple thousand bike building hobbiests riding there creations on the local roads than 10 of our newly licensed 16 year olds heading home after school behind the wheel of mom's SUV.

[atmo]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. But it could be said that people are idiots for riding bikes to begin with:

Last January someone I know had the steerer on a bontrager fork fail on them. They broke several cervical vertebra but survived.
Over the years I've seen other manufacturer's equipment fail catastrophically on the road and trail due to manufacturing issues. Heck, I've seen nasty accidents caused by blownout sidewalls on tires.

Just say'n in a not so playful kind of way.

Are the odds better that something bad will happen on a first bike? possibly. would you be silly to push the envelope on the first bike you built? possibly.

I really appreciate and understand your stance. In many ways, you're correct. But I think this audience is a different one than your framebuilder forums.

Yes. There are sensible ways to go about learning how to build a frame and not so sensible ways.

If a master never built a first frame, they would never be a master.
with "luck", the examples you cite will be from manufacturers
who - at the very least - carry a policy that might help the end
users in the event that the courts weigh on their sides. the point
is there is accountability.

sorry. as i said, this is important to me.

[atmo]

The world is full of what ifs. Risk is part of life. I'd feel safer with a couple thousand bike building hobbiests riding there creations on the local roads than 10 of our newly licensed 16 year olds heading home after school behind the wheel of mom's SUV.
since i know more about framebuilding than i do
about driver's ed, i'll take my chances with the
10 newly licensed 16 year olds atmo.

[J.Greene]

with "luck", the examples you cite will be from manufacturers
who - at the very least - carry a policy that might help the end
users in the event that the courts weigh on their sides. the point
is there is accountability.

sorry. as i said, this is important to me.

An interesting view on this issue would be to ask who on the list would consider buying a frame from a builder who was not insured?

Of course saab has not said he was going pro, but I think the responses would be interesting anyway.

JG

[atmo]

An interesting view on this issue would be to ask who on the list would consider buying a frame from a builder who was not insured?

Of course saab has not said he was going pro, but I think the responses would be interesting anyway.

JG
to reiterate my pov -
for me it's not about saab and his project, it's about that
folks can't fly up there without some sort of regulations
attached to it all, yet one guy can make a bicycle and take
it into our traffic patterns.

the liability and all the other baggage i attach to this issue
is also about if that guy (saab, whomever...) lets the
bicycle be used by another, no matter if it's gifted, traded,
or sold. atmo this has consequences.

[Archibald]

say something helpful atmo.
few things matter to me like this issue matters to
me. take a stance or else i'll be your next dentist atmo.
There is nothing helpful to say. I don't think there is any harm in amateur/hobbyist builders. It's no different than amateur/experimental plane builders or custom car/bike dudes, etc. They can be flying over, or driving in front of, your house right now with a completely untested, unproven, design.

I agree with you that once you start supplying others with frames, for profit or not, you're playing with fire and if you're going to play with fire you need to know what the hell you're doing and be prepared for any eventuality, i.e., more than a casual understanding of what you're doing and fully insured for both your sake and your customer's sake.

[oracle]

i hope that someday i won't need a license to take a dump, to ensure that i won't be infecting the public water supply....

and i hope i wont need need to apply for a permit every time i throw a party and decide to cook for my friends to ensure that my kitchen is up to code.....

i certainly hope that i shall never require a license to sell 'junk' .....

but i am generally glad about the fact that my physician has a well documented and vetted history.....

[saab2000]

I understand what ATMO is saying here. I don't consider building a bike for myself to be the same as flying in terms of risk to the general population, but his point is taken. The general public cannot just go out and fly airplanes without a lot of steps to be taken first. You also cannot just build an airplane and go fly it without the FAA's blessing. And a homebuilt airplane (experimental certification) may never ever be used for commercial purposes.

For me it would certainly be just a bike for me. Maybe a buddy in Appleton, WI too. Nothing more than that, or if it were, the rest would come slowly.

I like bikes and always have. I have worked in shops several times and build wheels and do all my own wrenching. The next logical step in this whole process would be to attempt to build a frameset.

The conventional wisdom here is that going and taking one of these classes would be the way to start out. That is probably correct. I would love to have 1-on-1 instruction from one of these masters here, but that prolly won't happen.

For me it would be to build something good and ridable with my own hands. And have fun doing it. Nothing more than that.

[oracle]

to reiterate my pov -
for me it's not about saab and his project, it's about that
folks can't fly up there without some sort of regulations
attached to it all, yet one stoned hippie can make a skateboard and take
it into our traffic patterns.



+1

[atmo]

i hope that someday i won't need a license to take a dump, to ensure that i won't be infecting the public water supply....

and i hope i wont need need to apply for a permit every time i throw a party and decide to cook for my friends to ensure that my kitchen is up to code.....

i certainly hope that i shall never require a license to sell 'junk' .....

but i am generally glad about the fact that my physician has a well documented and vetted history.....
so i guess i need a sense of humor huh.

[oracle]

so i guess i need a sense of humor huh.

i'm not saying that you're not the doctor.....

[Ginger]

with "luck", the examples you cite will be from manufacturers
who - at the very least - carry a policy that might help the end
users in the event that the courts weigh on their sides. the point
is there is accountability.

sorry. as i said, this is important to me.

Accountability, perhaps they do have those poliicies, but corporations are very well protected in Michigan from such suits. (Thank you Auto lobbiests) I believe they're limited to liability of replacing the faulty equipment...

No need to say sorry. I'm certainly not taking offense.
I realize you have a well developed opinion on this because it is what you do,

[mosca]

What's a hobby builder to do besides learn proper techniques and follow established practices to maximize the quality and safety of his frame?

e-Richie, I'll happily submit my work to you for certification if you think that will help avert any kind of school bus or taxi related catastrophe!

[atmo]

i'm not saying that you're not the doctor.....
it reads here (on the board) that folks
think it's okay to play doctor atmo.

[atmo]

What's a hobby builder to do besides learn proper techniques and follow established practices to maximize the quality and safety of his frame?
er, get an insurance policy?
what - it's cost prohibitive?!
aw gee that's too effin' bad.

see ya'.
i'm out for a ride.
i'm too thin skinned for this.
to quote a good pal -
lots of good people just don't see the violence in their own blindness.

[oracle]

it reads here (on the board) that folks
think it's okay to play doctor atmo.

a little playing doctor is good for the soul....

[Archibald]

it reads here (on the board) that folks
think it's okay to play doctor atmo.
No it doesn't. It reads that if you want to self-medicate, knock yourself out, but don't prescribe medications for others.

Physician, heal theyself....I suggest a G&T or doobage depending on how you roll.

[Ginger]

it reads here (on the board) that folks
think it's okay to play doctor atmo.

If all doctors were all great, none of them would loose their licenses...but those that do are allowed to practice until evidence proves them incompetent. To me, that's scary.

[J.Greene]

edited into oblivion

[oracle]

?? (http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/pto/lowres/pton2l.jpg)

[gdw]

"see ya'.
i'm out for a ride.
i'm too thin skinned for this.
to quote a good pal -
lots of good people just don't see the violence in their own blindness"

Are you licensed to operate that bike? :banana:

[Louis]

yet one guy can make a bicycle and take
it into our traffic patterns.

the liability and all the other baggage i attach to this issue
is also about if that guy (saab, whomever...) lets the
bicycle be used by another, no matter if it's gifted, traded,
or sold. atmo this has consequences.

As others have said, of all the risks one takes in the world, that of the incompentent / rogue frame manufacturer pumping out bad products for himself and his buds (remember Chunk 666 ?) ain't anywhere close to being on my radar.

[Archibald]

but you can, in a hobbiest ultralight or some of those other contraptions that buzz over my house...the cost to solo in the air is not much different than the cost to build your first frame. Add in fancy tooling and toys and your at the cost of being private pilot. The money is about the same to enter both worlds, one has a certification and one does not, but the overall berrier to entry is about the same. When a private pilot stacks it in, it's almost always pilot error of some sort.

JG
JG - This (ULAs) is something I'm terribly interested in and have been looking into. Seriously. Any cool build your own websites?

[Louis]

JG - This (ULAs) is something I'm terribly interested in and have been looking into. Seriously.

I better strengthen my roof !!!!

Archie, how many G's you plan on pulling? Split-S, WUT, RPO?

[mjb266]

I think that liability is something that is determined by the courts and I am fairly certain that if you f-up on something that you build and take out a family of ducks...that family will come after you insurance policy or not. As for the average person throwing together a bike and riding it around...what are the regulations for someone building up a car and driving it on the roads?

Also, I have frequented the frame forum boards and can say that many of the individuals on there have some unrealistic pipe dream of starting a business and selling bikes as if they lived back in the 70's...a tad bit idealistic an unrealistic. I find many of the individuals on those forums to be a tad bit more suspect that those who frequent this board.

I don't see an airline pilot who loves flying giving it all up to hand a shingle and start brazing for pennies.

[mosca]

er, get an insurance policy?
what - it's cost prohibitive?!
aw gee that's too effin' bad.

Are you recommending this on legal or ethical grounds?

I had never even remotely considered that I might want/need an insurance policy for this sort of thing. I would think that there is an implicit understanding from anyone who would ride a frame from a non-professional builder that it doesn't come with any legal assurances.

Are there any guys out there building one or two frames per year on a strictly hobby basis that are actually carrying an insurance policy?

[Archibald]

I better strengthen my roof !!!!

Archie, how many G's you plan on pulling? Split-S, WUT, RPO?
I was thinking more along the lines of a big, slow, clothy, floaty, quiet kind of thing. You know, the kind a fast moving coyote could outrun.

[J.Greene]

Are there any guys out there building one or two frames per year on a strictly hobby basis that are actually carrying an insurance policy?

As a hobbiest I'll build 3-4 frames this year. I worry about this issue. I don't feel I'll ever be able to sell a frame because I assume I'll need insurance for as long as I have bikes on the road. Insurance is a legal and ethical issue. If someone were seriously hurt because of my mistake, I'd want that person to have all financial resources available to them. I also have a responsibility to my kids to fund their college. for the record, I'm not ready for primetime.

JG

[manet]

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/easterncaster/IMG_0128.jpg

[mosca]

As a hobbiest I'll build 3-4 frames this year. I worry about this issue. I don't feel I'll ever be able to sell a frame because I assume I'll need insurance for as long as I have bikes on the road. Insurance is a legal and ethical issue. If someone were seriously hurt because of my mistake, I'd want that person to have all financial resources available to them. I also have a responsibility to my kids to fund their college. for the record, I'm not ready for primetime.

JG

I guess what I'm gleaning from atmo's remarks is that even though I may never sell a frame, it's likely that someone else will ride my frames at some point in the future anyway. Am I responsible for that person's safety forever? Legally or ethically?

[OldDog]

Saab - I was born and rasied in a machine shop. Still manage that shop some 36 years later. Though I rarely make anything myself anymore, opting for the pencil pushing route and spending time in SerottaLand, I know my way around the shop floor and I can still make a miller and a lathe sing and braze/weld a fine thinwall tube without trashing or warping it.

I've thought many times of building frames for fun. Life is short. I would rather ride them instead. That first frame will not be made in 40 hours. More like maybe 400 if you are lucky. And that frame will cost you way more than a sweet ride, or two/three, made by one of the many talented (and tooled) SerottaPals. I guess my thinking is, if you cannot do it right, for the right price, sub it out to someone who can.

I know where you are coming from and I respect your desire. Unless you have access to and some experience with the needed tooling, your taking on an ambitious project time and dollar wise.

If ya do go through with it, post a pick!

[Louis]

I guess what I'm gleaning from atmo's remarks is that even though I may never sell a frame, it's likely that someone else will ride my frames at some point in the future anyway. Am I responsible for that person's safety forever? Legally or ethically?

Cars are sold "as is" all the time and I don't see the original dealer or GM's panties getting all in a bunch because of that...

[stevep]

i made a coupl e of frames 25 years ago.
bought a bunch of lugs and junk tubing..practiced brazing...cut the lugs in half to check out the flow...
its doable.
the 2 frames are still alive and i even rode one of them again last year...rides nice actually..a long wheel base touring bike.
mitering is easy with a file...time consuming but no trick to it...
its not a pro job for sure, but i learned a lot and the bike is useable.
not interested in doing it again but it can be done.
s
no jig... eyeball. fork is the hardest part but i did buy a jig for that.

had gone at one point to the bob jackson factory in leeds... no jigs there either...
eyeball mate*

* maybe not true now...definitely true in 1975.

[J.Greene]

I guess what I'm gleaning from atmo's remarks is that even though I may never sell a frame, it's likely that someone else will ride my frames at some point in the future anyway. Am I responsible for that person's safety forever? Legally or ethically?

mosca,

I hate to respond with a question...but am I ever off the hook for a mistake I might make that leads to injury? I don't know the legal answer, but ethically I feel I'm not off the hook.

JG

[mosca]

mosca,

I hate to respond with a question...but am I ever off the hook for a mistake I might make that leads to injury? I don't know the legal answer, but ethically I feel I'm not off the hook.

JG

Somewhat ironically, you're just the kind of person I'd trust to build my frame!

[dirtdigger88]

threads like this - though interesting - make me
wish our trade had standards and/or was regulated,
even if it was simple, = slumming atmo.


I feel your pain atmo-

every unemployed guy out there with a pick up and a lawn mower thinks they can be a landscape contractor-

jason

[J.Greene]

Somewhat ironically, you're just the kind of person I'd trust to build my frame!

not ready for prime time but thanks for the compliment.

I have a huge and real appreciation for the guys who do it everyday. Hug your local framebuilder, then send him or her a referal (when it makes sense not to send one to serotta of course).

JG

[Ginger]

Are you recommending this on legal or ethical grounds?

I had never even remotely considered that I might want/need an insurance policy for this sort of thing. I would think that there is an implicit understanding from anyone who would ride a frame from a non-professional builder that it doesn't come with any legal assurances.

Are there any guys out there building one or two frames per year on a strictly hobby basis that are actually carrying an insurance policy?

I don't know why you wouldn't.

[Louis]

I was thinking more along the lines of a big, slow, clothy, floaty, quiet kind of thing. You know, the kind a fast moving coyote could outrun.

Kind of like this?

[J.Greene]

JG - This (ULAs) is something I'm terribly interested in and have been looking into. Seriously. Any cool build your own websites?


I have no idea.My cousin has a hanger full of stuff that flys, from warbirds to gliders. My info is second hand. Join your local eaa chapter, those guy will make you happy if it takes every dollar you've got!

JG

[stevep]

i had no thought of building the frames to save money...just to learn the process...
made me happy to spend money with someone who knew something...appreciate the results.

saab...im thinking of building a f-18 at my house.
i need the plans... any thoughts?
have most of the tools.

[dave thompson]

i had no thought of building the frames to save money...just to learn the process...
made me happy to spend money with someone who knew something...appreciate the results.

saab...im thinking of building a f-18 at my house.
i need the plans... any thoughts?
have most of the tools.
Louis is the guy to ask about FA-18s. He paints 'em.

[saab2000]

1. I would be doing this for fun. End of story.
2. Yes, it would probably cost more than just buying one. But I have plenty of bought frames and would love to try something new.
3. Everyone starts somewhere and there is no exclusive birthright to make bikes.
4. Building an F-18 will take a lot of money and yes, you may wish to find the plans. Not all the components will be readily available. These are not carved out of balsa wood. Expect a couple badass dudes to show up at your door sometime during the process. They will be wearing Ray-Bans and will have earpieces and briefcases.
5. www.eaa.org
6. People are taking this ho-made bike thing way too seriously.

[Climb01742]

every unemployed guy out there with a pick up and a lawn mower thinks they can be a landscape contractor-

i feel your pain.
every client with a pencil thinks they're a writer.

[saab2000]

i feel your pain.
every client with a pencil thinks they're a writer.

And everyone getting on or off the plane whines to me about why it is so small, as if I designed or chose the thing.

BTW, flying an airplane is almost surely easier than building a bike if that makes any of the builders happy. Pilots are nothing but a bunch of trained apes. Rocket scientists design the things, but operating them is pretty simple.

[atmo]

Are you recommending this on legal or ethical grounds?

I had never even remotely considered that I might want/need an insurance policy for this sort of thing. I would think that there is an implicit understanding from anyone who would ride a frame from a non-professional builder that it doesn't come with any legal assurances.

Are there any guys out there building one or two frames per year on a strictly hobby basis that are actually carrying an insurance policy?
ethical.

[mosca]

I don't know why you wouldn't.

I'm just wondering where to draw the line - I had felt that insurance was strictly the province of the pro builder, but not so sure now. I've only built one frame, and it doesn't look particularly dangerous so far, but at what point would a reasonable person purchase insurance for their work?

[weisan]

Occasionally, I would share that desire. It's interesting that Curt-pal mentioned Doug Fattic. An inside view of his "office", (http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/fattic_doug_shop_tour.htm) certainly would be nice to have some sort of health insurance before operating on any of these machines...

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/images/USA/fattic_doug/shop%20tour/Fattic010.jpg

[SoCalSteve]

And everyone getting on or off the plane whines to me about why it is so small, as if I designed or chose the thing.

BTW, flying an airplane is almost surely easier than building a bike if that makes any of the builders happy. Pilots are nothing but a bunch of trained apes. Rocket scientists design the things, but operating them is pretty simple.

I imagine thats true to a certain extent, until something goes wrong...

Then I imagine there is a HUGE difference between the trained apes and the real pilots.

[stevep]

[QUOTE=saab2000]And everyone getting on or off the plane whines to me about why it is so small, QUOTE]

hey, why are they so small anyway?
why are the seats so close together?
come on saab... why?

[72gmc]

'cause you're eating too much ice cream?

[saab2000]

[QUOTE=saab2000]And everyone getting on or off the plane whines to me about why it is so small, QUOTE]

hey, why are they so small anyway?
why are the seats so close together?
come on saab... why?

Walk through the First Class section on a 777 someday or look online and look at photos of the interior of a Gulfstream. You gotta pay if you wanna play!

[atmo]

I'm just wondering where to draw the line - I had felt that insurance was strictly the province of the pro builder, but not so sure now. I've only built one frame, and it doesn't look particularly dangerous so far, but at what point would a reasonable person purchase insurance for their work?
if someone else uses it.

[Louis]

Louis is the guy to ask about FA-18s. He paints 'em.

Everybody knows that those are F-15s, not F-18s. So there, smarty-pants :D

BTW, do you know how much those union guys who really do do the painting get paid? I'd be riding Meivici's, one for each day of the week if I were...

[obtuse]

i feel your pain.
every client with a pencil thinks they're a writer.


i feel your pain. every jerk with a job in a bike shop thinks he's a bike shop employee. wait a second....

obtuse

[Kevan]

And everyone getting on or off the plane whines to me about why it is so small, as if I designed or chose the thing.

BTW, flying an airplane is almost surely easier than building a bike if that makes any of the builders happy. Pilots are nothing but a bunch of trained apes. Rocket scientists design the things, but operating them is pretty simple.

loves an auditor.

[Serotta PETE]

THis topic has really hit "many" hot buttons. While many can not be quantified I am going to get on my soap box (or wine barrel).

To think that you can take a book, read it, and make a perfect or good frame is very optimistic. yeah you need to first determine what "perfect" or "good" means. Additionally why can not the same logic be used as to building an airplane - I sure would not want to fly it, ride on it, or be around it.

I think we do not give credit to folks like Sachs, Kelly, David K who have spent MANY years perfecting their trade. (in fact I would consider it insulting to think I could even come close to their skills) To think anyone can, in one or two frames, build an equivalent product is a lot of assumption and wishful thinking. Folks can build a frame and it can look nice, ride well at slow speeds but it is not a frame equivalent to the top tier builders.

It takes skills and "much" experience to build a "good" frame that will hold together (no cracks) steer well at speeds, and have a high level of expected enjoyment and long life (steel)

China Inc builds probably the vast majority of frames in large factories, where no single person has "much" decision making its design or end to end construction, (it is an assembly line and the vast majority of product
leaves , within spec, and meets the general expectation of buyers. You do not have to be builder to spin out frames to the masses for general recreation.)

And yes someone with general mechanical/metal/welding skills can duplicate a frame that will go down the road. But it is not a SACHs, SEROTTA, KIRK, GOODRICH. To many they will never know the difference BUT>>.

I would hate to put someone like TOO TALL, FLYDHEST or someone of that stature,on one of the home built frames, That would be real stress~~~~

I am ranting again, so I apologize,,the net of what I am saying is..

- I agree that anyone who wants to build a frame for themselves should go and do it. THe only thing I would ask you to remember is "It should not even be considered a frame in the same breath as someone's frame that has spent much of their life perfecting the craft through years of work, experience, and skills both natural and acquired.

. In the days of the Internet and ease of publishing we sometimes forget that skills and experience, in most instances, count for MUCH MORE than book knowledge. For Doctors, lawyers, teachers, dentist, mechanics, etc....we look for experience and reputation.

- As to liability insurance, I hope to never find out to what level SEROTTA, SACHS, KIRK, etc have as to max amount of insurance....

I never want a failure that affects my quality of life and ability to enjoy the sport. That is why reputation and experience count "as everything" to me.
A financial settlement would never bring back my quality of life. I have many friends that are what I consider great lawyers. From listening to them, I assure you that WE can be sued for anything at anytime.!!! Insurance only limits your financial exposure(maybe). Trust me - you do not want someone riding a frame that you have built.....unless that is the way you make your living... (That is just my opinion)

My other opinion is that a good RED is better than a not good RED - - IT IS TIME FOR A GOOD RED>>>>COME JOIN ME :beer:

PETE

[obtuse]

i've made two frames; neither of which is for sale. i carry huge product liability insurance.

obtuse

[mjb266]

Beer drinkers like to try to make their own beer
Wine drinkers often try to make their own wine
Car guys like to work on/modify their own cars
Some pilots try to make their own ultralight aircrafts
Paddlers try to make their own boats


Some bike riders try to make their own bike.

It is an attempt to appreciate your hobby at a deeper level. I know that seeing what beer takes makes me appreciate a Boundary Bay IPA a lot more than simple opening a bottle...and making a frame made me appreciate Tom Kellog and RS's work a lot more than just seeing pictures or a video.

Just getting the stupid chainstays to fit into the BB shell was a revelation

[gdw]

Do you rember what Saab's original question was?

"I have sometimes considered trying to build my own bike and now have the chance to buy a manual describing the process step by step.

Have any of you normal civilians ever attemped something like this?


The thread go hijacked because atmos wanted to vent about one of his pet peeves. Relax.

[atmo]

i'm a venting fool atmo.

[Archibald]

i'm a venting fool atmo.
I'm considering auto-eroticism.

Is this something I can take care of myself or should I leave it to the pros?

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[musgravecycles]

Occasionally, I would share that desire. It's interesting that Curt-pal mentioned Doug Fattic. [

Every time I see those pictures it makes me cringe... I've never seen the shop so dirty... We've gotta get those updated...

To the original question. Saab-Pal wants to make a bike for himself...cut the guy some slack. We take so many other bigger risk's everyday (btw, should I carry insurance because I turn a wrench on my own car every now and then),that making a bicycle for himself is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things...
:beer:

[manet]

i'm a venting fool atmo.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.benbrownfinearts.com/NewPics/600X450/Fontana/Fontana%252064%2520T%252065.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.benbrownfinearts.com/ArtistFontanaCS64T65.htm&h=458&w=370&sz=18&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=MwJTYwibYjoJwM:&tbnh=128&tbnw=103&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfontana%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3 D%26sa%3DG

[72gmc]

Your vents make your "homemade" frames more desirable, atmo. I think it's a treat to get your perspective.

[saab2000]

making a bicycle for himself is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things...
:beer:

Word.

[gdw]

"i'm a venting fool"

Venting artisan with above average skills in marketing. atmo

[atmo]

... making a bicycle for himself is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things...
:beer:


agreed, and i think i conceded as much in various
posts. as long as you, doug, and i remain insured,
things are as they should be atmo.

[stevep]

this thread made me decide to build frames for a living.
i build sachs copies for $250 each.
atmo...i already have a 6 year waiting list...
what is yours?



now hes bitter... will sue me...
i just want him to sell me some decals, no big deal.
mean spirited i say.

[swoop]

i'm building my own stevep in the garage. 3 parts sexy, 1 part rebel, swirly fabric.... what else will i need and who wants him when i'm done?

[timto]

Every time I see those pictures it makes me cringe... I've never seen the shop so dirty... We've gotta get those updated...

Uh... I don't know J... looked kind of the same when I was last there... wasn't too long ago...
JUST SAYIN!!
:p

[manet]

i'm building my own stevep in the garage. 3 parts sexy, 1 part rebel, swirly fabric.... what else will i need and who wants him when i'm done?

2 parts farmer's almanac

[swoop]

2 parts farmer's almanac
perhaps a sprinkle of flava flav.

[stevep]

manet, your frame is done. built it this afternoon while i watched the soaps,
just waiting for the decals.
you said red with white panels, right?



easy money....

[manet]

manet, your frame is done. built it this afternoon while i watched the soaps,
just waiting for the decals.
you said red with white panels, right?



easy money....

OFF-WHITE !!

[atmo]

OFF-WHITE !!

hang out a shingle why don'tcha atmo.

[mosca]

agreed, and i think i conceded as much in various
posts. as long as you, doug, and i remain insured,
things are as they should be atmo.
Thanks for the feedback. I imagine you get tired of having the same online discussions over and over again, but I appreciate your willingness to put info out there for us wannabees.

Now back to your regularly scheduled hilarity.

[slowgoing]

3. Everyone starts somewhere and there is no exclusive birthright to make bikes.


I'm with ya - just go for it. I'm considering the same thing when I retire in a few years, so maybe you can give me some tips.... After all, I did get an A in shop in 8th grade. Just think of how much experience you could gain in the time it takes to work your name off of someone else's wait list. Besides, you don't have to learn how to size anyone but yourself.

Now if there was only a way to learn how to build a frame out of my personal favorite material, carbon fiber....

[manet]

....

Now back to your regularly scheduled hillarity.

[stevep]

Now if there was only a way to learn how to build a frame out of my personal favorite material, carbon fiber....

thats easier. all you need is glue and a hacksaw.

[atmo]

thats easier. all you need is glue and a hacksaw.
and a fiber material supplier atmo...

[Louis]

saab...im thinking of building a f-18 at my house.
i need the plans... any thoughts?
have most of the tools.

Steve, the last time ATMO tried to do that this happened.

Beware.

[stevep]

Steve, the last time ATMO tried to do that this happened.

Beware.

more glue atmo.
s

[mosca]

more glue atmo.
s
but don't inhale...

[musgravecycles]

Uh... I don't know J... looked kind of the same when I was last there... wasn't too long ago...
JUST SAYIN!!
:p

Come on Tim, it wasn't anywhere near THAT messy when you were there...
:rolleyes:
Don't you still have some pics on your site to prove as much...

[musgravecycles]

Tim,
It was sorta clean while you were here...

http://www.geniebicycles.com/gallery/frameschool/fattic_0020.JPG

At least you could see to the bottom of the Miele Table... ;)

http://www.geniebicycles.com/gallery/frameschool/fattic_0022.JPG

Look how clean that table/flooor is Tim (Tim's classmates)...

http://www.geniebicycles.com/gallery/frameschool/fattic_0016.JPG


Hey... Who's dis' fool (and what's with his MP tape)...

http://www.geniebicycles.com/gallery/frameschool/fattic_0075.JPG


The rest of Tim's pics here:
http://www.geniebicycles.com/frameschool_gallery.htm

[davids]

I'm considering auto-eroticism.

Is this something I can take care of myself or should I leave it to the pros?

:banana: :banana: :banana:
I hear there are manuals describing the process step by step...

[R2D2]

I guess this isn't so easy a caveman could do it.

[DGMcGinty]

For me, it would be lilke pulling my own tooth or cutting off my own arm. When I was done, what would I have. I think making a bike is a little like sausage. I enjoy it but do not want to see it being made.

David

[timto]

Hey... Who's dis' fool (and what's with his MP tape)...

http://www.geniebicycles.com/gallery/frameschool/fattic_0075.JPG


This guy is crazy - he MIXES shimano and campy on the same bike!!!!

That is NUTTERS!!!

That class was fantastic but a great wake up call to me to let experts do their thing.

timto

[Grant McLean]

building your own frame requires the correct, very special equipment:

http://www.carhartt.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10101&storeId=10051&productId=32172&langId=-1&categoryId=10909#

g

[gt6267a]

Beer drinkers like to try to make their own beer
Wine drinkers often try to make their own wine
Car guys like to work on/modify their own cars
Some pilots try to make their own ultralight aircrafts
Paddlers try to make their own boats


Some bike riders try to make their own bike.

It is an attempt to appreciate your hobby at a deeper level. I know that seeing what beer takes makes me appreciate a Boundary Bay IPA a lot more than simple opening a bottle...and making a frame made me appreciate Tom Kellog and RS's work a lot more than just seeing pictures or a video.

Just getting the stupid chainstays to fit into the BB shell was a revelation

While there are similarities, there are also major difference between home brewing and home frame making. In college, I made beer for two years with a friend. The first few batches we could not give the beer away, then friend’s would drink (at least they did in front of us), then friend’s started asking for it, then people who we did not know started asking for it, then my room mates started stealing it, then we put a lock on the fridge and they broke in …

Over time we got better and people appreciated our beer. There was a learning curve and as we got over the hump so did our beer. Or was it the beer that got over the hump and drug us over? Anyhoo, no doubt, we got a few people buzzed or drunk. No doubt, we got ourselves buzzed or drunk. That said, nothing happened to people drinking our beer that would not have happened had they been drinking store bought beer.

That’s where I draw the line with frame making. I think it would be difficult or impossible ethically or legally for a homebuilder to say nothing will happen on my frame / fork that wouldn’t on a professionally made one, especially with their first 100-200 frames.

I will freely admit, cutting a lug in half and seeing the solder is a good start, but from an engineering perspective that just doesn’t cut it. No home builder is going to make 10+ frames and break them in the rigors of testing them. BUT, this is exactly the type of activity that makes for great learning and ultimately great products. At this point, the more experienced builders have done this, whether on purpose or by so many bikes produced and ridden. Out of curiosity, do the one man shops they test their creations?

Per the statement that a Bontrager steerer broke, yes that sucks, but how many broke out of how many made? No product is perfect, and even with a few fractures, the defect rate may very well be lower than a home made product.

[J.Greene]

gt,

you'd be amazed at the # of bike boom bikes that have incomplete and very poorly brazed joints that are still on the road with tens of thousands of miles. Some fail and some never do. Also, most of these bikes are not even close to being straight.

As somebody on the homebuilt path I have different conclusions than you. I'll never have the reps that someone needs to hang a shingle, I'll never approach the level of atmo,cpg,kirk etc.... But I'm confident with my experience that I'll be able to make a better frame for me than the imports that sit on the bikeshop floor. btw to balace my bias...I ride a 2 month old Sachs a lot and I race a Serotta Legend Ti.

JG

While there are similarities, there are also major difference between home brewing and home frame making. In college, I made beer for two years with a friend. The first few batches we could not give the beer away, then friend’s would drink (at least they did in front of us), then friend’s started asking for it, then people who we did not know started asking for it, then my room mates started stealing it, then we put a lock on the fridge and they broke in …

Over time we got better and people appreciated our beer. There was a learning curve and as we got over the hump so did our beer. Or was it the beer that got over the hump and drug us over? Anyhoo, no doubt, we got a few people buzzed or drunk. No doubt, we got ourselves buzzed or drunk. That said, nothing happened to people drinking our beer that would not have happened had they been drinking store bought beer.

That’s where I draw the line with frame making. I think it would be difficult or impossible ethically or legally for a homebuilder to say nothing will happen on my frame / fork that wouldn’t on a professionally made one, especially with their first 100-200 frames.

I will freely admit, cutting a lug in half and seeing the solder is a good start, but from an engineering perspective that just doesn’t cut it. No home builder is going to make 10+ frames and break them in the rigors of testing them. BUT, this is exactly the type of activity that makes for great learning and ultimately great products. At this point, the more experienced builders have done this, whether on purpose or by so many bikes produced and ridden. Out of curiosity, do the one man shops they test their creations?

Per the statement that a Bontrager steerer broke, yes that sucks, but how many broke out of how many made? No product is perfect, and even with a few fractures, the defect rate may very well be lower than a home made product.

[Samster]

First you have to be initiated into the guild and learn the secret handshake before suffering years of humilation as an acolyte to a perverse and abusive Master.his name is Pai Mei.

[mosca]

Well, at the risk of digging myself an even deeper hole here, I feel somewhat obligated to come to the defense of the beginning builders out there. This thread has really made me consider what is my ethical obligation if I bring a bike frame into the world. I consider myself an ethical, responsible person, but can't help feeling that there is some "mystification" of traditional framebuilding that should be addressed by someone (and since I clearly don't have the good sense to keep my mouth shut, I guess it's me).

Brazed steel frame construction is a well tested and proven technique at this point, so from that perspective it's probably not necessary for a builder to do extensive destructive testing to feel that his frames are reliable.

As far as technique, there is definitely skill involved, but there are clear basic principles that can be learned and followed even by a beginner. I'm talking about things like heat control, correct clearances, proper cleaning of parts, using the correct filler materials in the proper amounts with good penetration, and so forth. These are concrete, observable, repeatable things - I think that people unfamiliar with the methods involved will sometimes perceive it as some sort of "black magic", but it's really more a matter of good fundamental practices.

The best assurance of quality, and the closest thing available to "certification" at this point is to learn the skills directly from an experienced builder. If you are shown proper technique and are able to practice it and analyze the results under the watchful eye of a master, safe construction is achievable.

A person experimenting with unproven materials or construction techniques, or perhaps testing some unusual theory of frame geometry would be an entirely different scenario, I think. This person would certainly bear the increased burden of having to prove their concept before releasing it into the world. On the other hand, a person learning a reliable, traditional, time honored skill such as brazed steel construction already has a fairly solid foundation, some great shoulders to stand on, so to speak.

Each person may have a different idea about their ethical obligation in building a bicycle frame. It's definitely a grey area, and we can see it's not something that should be taken lightly. Experience will lead to better and better frames, certainly, but I feel like I have done my homework in the matter, and plan to ride my first frame with confidence. Anyone else with an interest in framebuilding, I can only encourage you to pursue it thoughtfully and responsibly.

Thanks for reading.

[William]

I'm considering auto-eroticism.

Is this something I can take care of myself or should I leave it to the pros?

:banana: :banana: :banana:

Don't forget....


Campy: http://www.seashellcity.com/homedecor/images/tissue_box3.jpg




Shimano: http://www.webwombat.com.au/lifestyle/fashion_beauty/images/sklenarikova2.JPG







William ;)

[atmo]

snipped: but can't help feeling that there is some "mystification" of traditional framebuilding that should be addressed by someone (and since I clearly don't have the good sense to keep my mouth shut, I guess it's me).
there is no mystification; it's a profession, not black art atmo.


snipped: Each person may have a different idea about their ethical obligation in building a bicycle frame. It's definitely a grey area, and we can see it's not something that should be taken lightly. Experience will lead to better and better frames, certainly, but I feel like I have done my homework in the matter, and plan to ride my first frame with confidence. Anyone else with an interest in framebuilding, I can only encourage you to pursue it thoughtfully and responsibly.

Thanks for reading.

agreed. have fun with your pursuits and that first frame.
as far as the ethics are involved, mine were summed up
in this post (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=305411&postcount=60) atmo.

[mosca]

For the record, I did not mean to imply that you or any other well known builder was trying to "mystify" the craft - you especially have been very open about what you do. Some people just like the romantic notion of building and enjoy that "mystery" aspect of it - I think its just as exciting even after you begin to understand what's really involved.

Anyway, I should shut up now - saab2000 has probably long since run screaming from his own thread!

[atmo]

:beer: atmo :beer:mosca :beer:

[Archibald]

I didn't want to admit to this out front because I didn't want Atmo to be hating on me, I'm too fragile for his abuses, but I built my own frame. It came out OK. :rolleyes:

[saab2000]

Hmmmm......???

Are you who I think you are? From Colorado?

Have we met? Did I order a bike from you?

[Archibald]

Hmmmm......???

Are you who I think you are? From Colorado?

Have we met? Did I order a bike from you?
I know nobody by the name Saab2000. Local guy taught me. He was a real derelict. Surprised he's not homeless by now.

[mosca]

Hmmm... a derelict from Colorado sold me a pretty fork fixture a while back. I wonder if it's the same guy.

He promised me it would build a perfect fork but I'm still waiting for that to happen.

[Big Dan]

I need a steel fork like that.............. :D

[Archibald]

He promised me it would build a perfect fork but I'm still waiting for that to happen.
+ or - 3mm?

Probably the same guy. He used to be somebody but nowadays he's just a wine-headed derelict, grubbing for booze and pocket change. He's got about as many teeth as a Jack O' Lantern and breath like sour milk. If he shaved he'd probably disappear. You know, your typical framebuilder. Hey, you think that Atmo cat would be begging for twizzlers all the time if he could afford a decent meal? Just saying.

Gotta' say though, last I saw him he was working on a real piece of art for someone on this very forum. Maybe it'll pull him out of the hole he's in.

[Dekonick]

this issue, for me, is not about saab. it's an across the
board issue. his flight buddies face regulations in the
sky. on the ground, around a courtyard - fine - go ride
yer bike. but to take it into traffic, with schoolbuses,
and delivery men, and your wife and the kids! what
happens if a widget unwidgets itself and the guy veers
to the left instead of the right????????????

Splat!

Seriously - whats wrong with making something to learn more about it? Going into business...thats another matter.

[Lifelover]

Get professional help learning whatever joining method (welding, brazing, gluing) that you plan to use. Outside of the joining, if you have the patients and skills to assemble a ridable product it will be safe.

I might even offer to buy one of your early creations as long as it looks exactly like a RS. It would be pretty cool to badge it as one and see how many people around here would even notice. Virginia Beach has many cyclist but very few of them understand that there are still quality steel bikes being made.

[xcandrew]

Some good advice:

http://www.bicycletrader.com/framebuilding.html

[mosca]

+ or - 3mm?
It's been suggested that I add the proper ingredients and apply heat. Next week, if I can find the time between episodes of American idol, I will attempt to implement this radical concept. If successful, I will begin to produce cheap knockoffs of e-Richie forks and sell them cheaply to forum members only. If you skip the insurance, you can really cut the overhead - PM me for the bro deal!

[stevep]

gt,

you'd be amazed at the # of bike boom bikes that have incomplete and very poorly brazed joints that are still on the road with tens of thousands of miles. Some fail and some never do. Also, most of these bikes are not even close to being straight.
JG

jg is right on with this.
imo there is plenty of margin in this and even moderate skills allow a bike frame to be as safe as anything else you do.
you will not come out of this exercise with a sachs frame but you can make a respectable riding bike...and i guarantee that you will appreciate a frame from an artisan even more afterward.
look at the aforementioned peugeot px-10 or a raleigh grand prix from the bike boom... .. or even worse the lower models... these things are total junk and they are occasionally still riddden 40 yrs later.

i was in a shop the other day and in the stand was a wrecked frame from a very respectable builder ( not serotta, not sachs ).
the bike had been in a head on collision..this collision would have broken/ ruined any bike, any bike.
the top tube had pulled out of the head lug... inside there was a considerably not filled gap that would only be apparent in this wrecked state. did not cause the crash, etc but i guarantee my brazing was better than this and i only brazed 3 frames.
try it. its not rocket science. the result wont be something lovely but i bet it will be totally safe to ride..the emphasis on safety, insurance, etc blah, blah is exaggerated.
there is more risk from putting your shoes on the wrong feet and tripping down the stairs.

[39cross]

there is more risk from putting your shoes on the wrong feet and tripping down the stairs.stevep, you gotta remember to put on your new e-Richie color-coded laces... :)

[saab2000]

For my next trick I will be buying some plastic tubing and Gorilla Glue from the Home Depot and selling it as a composite frameset.

[stevep]

stevep, you gotta remember to put on your new e-Richie color-coded laces... :)

the insurance on those laces is killing me.
$250 a month to r sachs enterprises in ct...
everyone else pay this?
just wanna be safe, thats all.

[Horshit]

a). It's amazing what you can do when you try.

b) You can go anywhere bolting together wooden beams and making your own hobby horse, mining all the most exotic materials and doing your own vacuum melting of the titanium... and designing and machining everything from scratch.

c) Or you can make all the really easy parts with some off the shelf stuff or some borrowed tools... such as the crank case.

d) And while all the best out of the pack CNC (computer numerical constrol) machinery is great, there is an amazing amount of stuff you CAN make with a hacksaw and a few files.

(toss in other **** like a cheap bench drill press and a loaned TIG welder)

e) Go do a BASIC welding certificate at a college... and then get a bent or broken frame and SECTION (cut through the middle) the main components, at their joints, and then duplicate it.

There is a LOT of stuff that you can get DEAD accurate, with some string or a 1 meter straight ruler.

Get yourself a nice kitchen table to mount your JIG upon and go for it.


I am trained in CAD (computer aided drafting etc) but I really prefer for most more basic work to use the OPEN OFFICE . ORG drawing package.

It's free and it's EXCELLENT.

http://www.openoffice.org/



The page sizes go up to A0 or 300 x 300 units - be that CM or mm, which is big enough for the average bike frame, and the drawings can be done to SCALE:

You can draw your exact bike frame and then make up your jig accordingly.

Or you can work without a jig - if your attentive enough to detail, to pull it off.


The only difference between you an an expert, is that they got a head start.

[dannyg1]

Here's a question: Has anyone made a fake famous custom builder's bike, I suppose a Sach's for this particular discussion,that's widely accepted by many knowledgeable people in the field, as being the real thing?


Or should we use Hetchin's as the example......?

Danny

[musgravecycles]

Wasn't there a guy out west who got caught building fake Confente's a few years ago?