OT: residential solar power

[djg21]

My wife and I are considering having solar panels installed on our home. The company we’ve been talking with is offering bridge loans in the amounts of the state and federal incentives and tax credits, and 0% interest financing of the roughly $15,000 out of pocket we’d pay for the panels and install. Our monthly payments would be roughly $85. We are told that roughly 100% of our yearly electric costs apart from the connection fee (around $125-$150/mo) would be derived from solar taking into account the buyback of of our unused electricity, and that if were were to sell the house, the value would increase by a relatively significant amount. I’m not interested in leasing given issues with transferring a lease. Does anyone have any real-world experience with owning solar or selling a home equipped with solar? Can you share them? it sounds like a no-brainer if the sales person is not being overly optimistic, and the one person I know who has solar raves about it. But I liked to see what kind of experiences others have had. Thanks!

[glepore]

My wife and I are considering having solar panels installed on our home. The company we’ve been talking with is offering bridge loans in the amounts of the state and federal incentives and tax credits, and 0% interest financing of the roughly $15,000 out of pocket we’d pay for the panels and install. Our monthly payments would be roughly $85. We are told that roughly 100% of our yearly electric costs apart from the connection fee (around $125-$150/mo) would be derived from solar taking into account the buyback of of our unused electricity, and that if were were to sell the house, the value would increase by a relatively significant amount. I’m not interested in leasing given issues with transferring a lease. Does anyone have any real-world experience with owning solar or selling a home equipped with solar? Can you share them? it sounds like a no-brainer if the sales person is not being overly optimistic, and the one person I know who has solar raves about it. But I liked to see what kind of experiences others have had. Thanks!

The sales guys greatly exaggerate. First of all, what is your heat source? A/c?
Hot water?
I have a 9kv system that never produces over 7k. In the cold months here it tends to be overcast, greatly reducing the efficiency of the system. I heat and cool with heat pumps. In the summer its an ok deal, in the winter disappointing. And my hot water is gas, as is my cooking.
With battery storage and a larger system, might feel differently. If I were to add to this system it would be diy.

[AngryScientist]

Solar panels on the roof torpedoed a deal I was under contract for to buy a house.

In the end, the real problem was that the sellers entered into what i would call a predatory solar PPA with a fly-by-night, now out of business solar company.

it was a true disaster, and i'm glad i walked away from the house.

owning them yourself is obviously a totally different deal.

Some things to consider:

How old is your roof? You dont want to need to replace your shingles before the design life of those panels is up.

How much are your typical average electricity bills? Crunch out the real math. most people dont wind up saving much, if anything all things considered.

Contact your home owners insurance company. Many insurance companies really dislike solar. Fire departments do not universally have a handle on how to handle home fires with solar panels on the roof since a PV panel is always generating juice when exposed to sun, and spraying water on such is questionable.

What warranty on the work will the installation contractor provide, and do you trust them? remember they are penetrating the waterproof boundary on your roof to install these panels, usually sealing them up with some roofing cement goop.

[djg21]

The sales guys greatly exaggerate. First of all, what is your heat source? A/c?
Hot water?
I have a 9kv system that never produces over 7k. In the cold months here it tends to be overcast, greatly reducing the efficiency of the system. I heat and cool with heat pumps. In the summer its an ok deal, in the winter disappointing. And my hot water is gas, as is my cooking.
With battery storage and a larger system, might feel differently. If I were to add to this system it would be diy.

We have gas heat, hot water, and stove. Central air is our biggest expense during the summer months, along with pool pump. We’ve been told (by the sales guy among others) that the battery tech is not quite there yet, is too expensive, and is only necessary in lieu of a generator given that National Grid has to pay us for surplus electricity that goes back into the grid. He said wait 5 years to see what improvements are made and if costs come down. I understand that we will generate less electricity once the days become shorter in the winter, but the hope is that the “credit” we accrue during the remainder of the year will offset the costs of electricity we pay for during those periods. We do have great year round exposure, so long as there is no snow on the panels.

[Ralph]

No experience with solar panels for electricity....but plenty of experience with solar water heating panels for the pool.

Would never put anything like this on our roof ever again. In 20 years, have had to remove them twice for roof repairs, expensive and stuff breaks, and others times for roof repairs around chimney, etc. If I couldn't put them on risers on the ground somewhere, wouldn't do it. And I realize few residential properties have room, direct light, or proper direction to mount on stands alongside home. And as above said....not all prospective home owners want them. And in our neighborhood....there are some county, city, and HOA restrictions to consider.

[benb]

Someone else here in the NE can surely chime in.. does snow actually stick to solar panels?

It seems like it would slide off a lot of the time just like a metal roof.

[djg21]

Solar panels on the roof torpedoed a deal I was under contract for to buy a house.

In the end, the real problem was that the sellers entered into what i would call a predatory solar PPA with a fly-by-night, now out of business solar company.

it was a true disaster, and i'm glad i walked away from the house.

owning them yourself is obviously a totally different deal.

Some things to consider:

How old is your roof? You dont want to need to replace your shingles before the design life of those panels is up.

How much are your typical average electricity bills? Crunch out the real math. most people dont wind up saving much, if anything all things considered.

Contact your home owners insurance company. Many insurance companies really dislike solar. Fire departments do not universally have a handle on how to handle home fires with solar panels on the roof since a PV panel is always generating juice when exposed to sun, and spraying water on such is questionable.

What warranty on the work will the installation contractor provide, and do you trust them? remember they are penetrating the waterproof boundary on your roof to install these panels, usually sealing them up with some roofing cement goop.

Our roof was replaced 10 days ago! The cost of the new roof can be included in the price of the solar install I am told, and result in additional tax credit.

As I noted, we pay between $125 and $170/mo for electric (excluding connection fees and gas). This makes it seem like a no-brainer if our monthly costs decrease by more than the $85/monthly payment. Even if it were a complete wash, I would be happy being environmental conscientious. I just don’t want more expense.

There is to be an external shut off to turn off power in event of emergency. I am told that this is now required to comply with building and fire codes.

Warranty is 25 years bumper to bumper, so only cost would be if something like a tree fell on a panel, in which case homeowners would cover. We are checking to see if premium would increase. The company is a large, publicly traded entity that does commercial and residential solar and builds its own panels. It appears to be reputable.

The panels would be on the back-facing roof, not visible from the street.

[djg21]

Someone else here in the NE can surely chime in.. does snow actually stick to solar panels?

It seems like it would slide off a lot of the time just like a metal roof.

I am told it sloughs off fairly quickly.

[C40_guy]

The specific programs offered by your particular state and power company make a huge difference.

We installed a 37 panel system four years ago, have not paid a dime to the electric company since. I now have a $1200 credit...but the power company will never write me a check...I just continue to grow the credit balance. There's three months out of the year where we draw down against that credit, the other nine we're adding to it.

We received a 30% federal tax credit (not deduction) and a small state credit for the year we installed the system. Note -- related expenses, such as site prep (clearing trees) may be considered part of your total expense. Talk with a knowledgeable accountant.

We also got a low cost "solar loan," part of a state program. Interest rate was 2.5%, term was ten years, to match the term of the SRECs.

Speaking of SRECs, Massachusetts is particularly generous with solar reimbursements. They're based on your production numbers. In our case, we're getting almost $4K a year from the state, which pretty much covers the solar loan...

I don't know how much we offset our electrical usage...we never lived in the house without solar. Based on my experience, I would do it again in a heartbeat.

I figure our payback is in the 5-6 year range.

Just make sure you get a good solar installer. Look for a SunPower Premier partner. It will make the difference in the quality of the installation and the follow on service. I've reached out a couple of times for minor things and have gotten immediate service. We also did put up squirrel fencing as an add on...I would do that right off the bat next time.

They also accommodated my request for completely hiding all of the system wiring -- nothing running outside. All the system wiring runs into and through the house, rather than down the side.

All of the permits and SREC applications can be daunting. A good project manager at the solar installer will make a huge difference.

[glepore]

if your primary use is a/c, you should be ok. My system is too small, should have done what c40 did. Also, I'm retired and living on investment income, so the tax credit wasn' of much benefit to me immediately.

[benb]

C40 Guy very interesting feedback considering the sun never really shines here in MA! :eek:

I'd do it in a minute if we end up buying a new house.

[C40_guy]

Our roof was replaced 10 days ago! The cost of the new roof can be included in the price of the solar install I am told, and result in additional tax credit.

As I noted, we pay between $125 and $170/mo for electric (excluding connection fees and gas). This makes it seem like a no-brainer if our monthly costs decrease by more than the $85/monthly payment. Even if it were a complete wash, I would be happy being environmental conscientious. I just don’t want more expense.

There is to be an external shut off to turn off power in event of emergency. I am told that this is now required to comply with building and fire codes.

Warranty is 25 years bumper to bumper, so only cost would be if something like a tree fell on a panel, in which case homeowners would cover. We are checking to see if premium would increase. The company is a large, publicly traded entity that does commercial and residential solar and builds its own panels. It appears to be reputable.

The panels would be on the back-facing roof, not visible from the street.

Yea, you could take the roof expense as a necessary improvement. :)

I informed my insurance company of the panels, which are now covered by homeowner's insurance. Our premiums did not go up.

Don't worry about snow...the panels should have some incline to them and will be fairly slippery. You'll get less build up than on roof shingles, and there's no worry about additional weight loading (I figure our 37 panels might way 1,500 lbs, a pittance compared to a couple of inches of wet snow).

Not sure which company you're referring to...we went with SunPower equipment and a local independent installer. Personally, I would not go with a national installer (who may sub out installations anyway)...I want to be able to call the owner if I have a real problem.

The couple of times that my installer has done work -- installing squirrel guards, swapping inverters for a recall, it's been the same guys. Good to know there's consistency on the team...people stay with a company for a reason.

[C40_guy]

if your primary use is a/c, you should be ok. My system is too small, should have done what c40 did. Also, I'm retired and living on investment income, so the tax credit wasn' of much benefit to me immediately.

My wife said "why are we putting on such a large system?"

I said "the more panels we install, the larger a credit we get, and the more money we make back from the SRECs." It really didn't matter...so I filled literally every inch of our upper roof, even moved a vent stack...

[C40_guy]

C40 Guy very interesting feedback considering the sun never really shines here in MA! :eek:

I'd do it in a minute if we end up buying a new house.

Dude...it shines often enough!

You can tell people who have solar installations...we're the ones grinning from ear to ear on a sunny day.

Oh, and here's this. There's enough reflected energy at night, on a full moon to drive a very modest amount of power production. My app reports <100 watts on a moonlit night! 0 on a cloud night.

[djg21]

The specific programs offered by your particular state and power company make a huge difference.

We installed a 37 panel system four years ago, have not paid a dime to the electric company since. I now have a $1200 credit...but the power company will never write me a check...I just continue to grow the credit balance.

We received a 30% federal tax credit and a small state credit for the year we installed the system. Note -- related expenses, such as site prep (clearing trees) may be considered part of your total expense. Talk with a knowledgeable accountant.

We also got a low cost "solar loan," part of a state program. Interest rate was 2.5%, term was ten years, to match the term of the SRECs.

Speaking of SRECs, Massachusetts is particularly generous with solar reimbursements. They're based on your production numbers. In our case, we're getting almost $4K a year from the state, which pretty much covers the solar loan...

I don't know how much we offset our electrical usage...we never lived in the house without solar. Based on my experience, I would do it again in a heartbeat.

I figure our payback is in the 5-6 year range.

Just make sure you get a good solar installer. Look for a SunPower Premier partner. It will make the difference in the quality of the installation and the follow on service. I've reached out a couple of times for minor things and have gotten immediate service. We also did put up squirrel fencing as an add on...I would do that right off the bat next time.

They also accommodated my request for completely hiding all of the system wiring -- nothing running outside. All the system wiring runs into and through the house, rather than down the side.

All of the permits and SREC applications can be daunting. A good project manager at the solar installer will make a huge difference.

The tax credits and State incentives, and the 0% financing makes this appealing. I’m in the Albany/Saratoga region so have the same weather patterns. In fact, the company we are in discussions with is a Sunpower Premier Partner.

Why do you need squirrel fencing? We have plenty of squirrels and chipmunks on the ground and in the trees, but our roof is pretty high and isolated from the trees. I know squirrels are acrobatic and athletic, but I have never seen them on our roof? Do the panels make attractive nesting spots?

Are there any other add-ons or extras that I should think about?

[C40_guy]

if your primary use is a/c, you should be ok. My system is too small, should have done what c40 did. Also, I'm retired and living on investment income, so the tax credit wasn' of much benefit to me immediately.

The solar tax credit was indeed a credit (versus a deduction) -- 30% of the system cost back to you, separate from what you owned in taxes.

[Edit] Now, its a dollar for dollar offset against any tax liability.

[C40_guy]

The tax credits and State incentives, and the 0% financing makes this appealing. I’m in the Albany/Saratoga region so have the same weather patterns. In fact, the company we are in discussions with is a Sunpower Premier Partner.

Why do you need squirrel fencing? We have plenty of squirrels and chipmunks on the ground and in the trees, but our roof is pretty high and isolated from the trees. I know squirrels are acrobatic and athletic, but I have never seen them on our roof? Do the panels make attractive nesting spots?

Are there any other add-ons or extras that I should think about?

In year 2 or 3, can't remember, a squirrel built a nest under one of the panels. Don't know why they chose that spot...but...wiring is a treat to them, so I got a garden hose and sprayed the crap out of that area, dislodging the nest. Then I had the fencing put up. Cost about $1200 and is virtually invisible from the ground.

Our roof is pretty high too, and isolated from trees. They climb up the gutters or vertical wood trim.

Other extras? You'll probably get a good monitoring panel, with access via app, as part of the base installation. You'll get two shutoffs, one inside, one outside, required by code.

Only thing that I could think of is a battery backup...as you mentioned... Your panels self isolate if the neighborhood power goes out, for safety reasons. You could go with a Tesla type battery wall that would give you coverage for a few hours, or perhaps more if you minimized your power usage during a blackout. No reason for battery to simply store power, the grid does that for you.

If I were to do it over again, I'd probably include a 6kWh battery bank, and just wrap it into the system cost. It would have added another 10% to our system cost. Easy to do at the time, more difficult to justify to SWMBO later. Gennies are cheap in comparison (and a PITA). Standby gennies are in the same price range, and will run literally forever if you have NG (which we do).

If you added a battery bank later, I *think* you can report that investment for the tax credit in a future year...you don't have to spend it all in one lump, but I could be wrong...You're just added to your system...if you installed more panels, you'd report that expense for the tax credit!

[NHAero]

I work for a company that has been installing solar electric for a long time (we're also an architecture/engineering/construction company, the solar is part of the mix). I also have PVs on my house (there have been other threads on this, BTW, in which I've posted.) Feel free to PM me about specific questions.

I don't know NY state's current cost climate for PVs. Solar makes more economic sense in our somewhat cloudy region than it does in a place like New Mexico or Colorado, because those places are sunnier, but power comes mostly from coal so it's much cheaper. Like C40 Guy said (we both comment in the same PV threads) in MA it's a good deal. The Solar Renewable Energy Certificate (SREC) program is over here, and it's been replaced by a not-as-generous program - which makes sense, because costs have come down. The Fed tax credit has dropped to 26% from 30%. Also, in MA now if the system is over a certain size the credits are knocked down from 100% to 60%, so we keep systems below that size unless it makes sense to have them a good bit larger.

I had a $1500 credit with Eversource (they don't write you a check) so I bought a plug-in hybrid and almost all of our driving on the Island is powered off our roof. Last year we were within 50 kWh of being exactly net zero for the year.

As to selling a house with PVs - funny story here. Our system was installed in 2011 on our first house here. The person who bought that house eventually is a staunch Tea Party/Trump supporter, and even though I offered what was a $20K system that was 2 years old to him for $5K, he "didn't believe in solar" and wouldn't pay anything for it. So I had it removed and re-installed on our current house, which cost me about $1500 including re-roofing the old house on that part of the roof. That's roughly the value of the electricity alone for one year and if one includes the SREC payments the payback for moving the system is well under one year.

[2000m2]

Every state is different. I've installed on two houses in different states, one of which we sold. Very happy with both systems and they were a little bit different due to technology advancing and local incentives to use locally manufactured products.

First place was in the Pacific Northwest and we put as many panels as we could fit, 6.16 kW (22 panels, central inverter). It only made sense there because of the state incentives, which were very generous. I would say it definitely added value to the house when we sold. We got lucky and the market was hot then, but it definitely sold for a premium in our neighborhood. Some people don't like the way they look and, again a little lucky, in that from the front of the house, they were not visible. Our electric bill was negative in the summer, some of which carried through the first part of the winter.

Second house is in CA and I pushed the companies to use the latest, most efficient panels along with adding as many as they could fit, 4.38kW (12 panels, micro-inverters ). Plenty of sunshine here and our electric bill is tiny, negative in the summer. We remodeled the house and upgraded the water heater to tankless, so the gas bill is tiny too since we switched over to a mini-split HVAC system. If it weren't for the stove, I would have eliminated gas to the house altogether. Overall, very happy with the solar system.

Big picture, get a few quotes. The first time around, we ended up with three quotes and all three system designs were different. This was annoying as it made it difficult to compare them and determine the best orientation. I just kept reading up on the technology, etc. to finally make a decision. Second house, we got three quotes again, but really only one way to orient the panels.

And you are very correct to stay away from the leases. Messy when you try to sell. We didn't finance any portion. Financially we didn't need to and logistically, I didn't want the hassle.

Good luck!

[djg21]

I work for a company that has been installing solar electric for a long time (we're also an architecture/engineering/construction company, the solar is part of the mix). I also have PVs on my house (there have been other threads on this, BTW, in which I've posted.) Feel free to PM me about specific questions.

I don't know NY state's current cost climate for PVs. Solar makes more economic sense in our somewhat cloudy region than it does in a place like New Mexico or Colorado, because those places are sunnier, but power comes mostly from coal so it's much cheaper. Like C40 Guy said (we both comment in the same PV threads) in MA it's a good deal. The Solar Renewable Energy Certificate (SREC) program is over here, and it's been replaced by a not-as-generous program - which makes sense, because costs have come down. The Fed tax credit has dropped to 26% from 30%. Also, in MA now if the system is over a certain size the credits are knocked down from 100% to 60%, so we keep systems below that size unless it makes sense to have them a good bit larger.

I had a $1500 credit with Eversource (they don't write you a check) so I bought a plug-in hybrid and almost all of our driving on the Island is powered off our roof. Last year we were within 50 kWh of being exactly net zero for the year.

As to selling a house with PVs - funny story here. Our system was installed in 2011 on our first house here. The person who bought that house eventually is a staunch Tea Party/Trump supporter, and even though I offered what was a $20K system that was 2 years old to him for $5K, he "didn't believe in solar" and wouldn't pay anything for it. So I had it removed and re-installed on our current house, which cost me about $1500 including re-roofing the old house on that part of the roof. That's roughly the value of the electricity alone for one year and if one includes the SREC payments the payback for moving the system is well under one year.

I was speculating to my wife that any potential purchasers who would take issue with solar panels would have to be motivated by politics, and not by rational thought. I’ll leave that alone. But maybe I’ll consider a windmill so I can kill some bald eagles too. :rolleyes:

[NHAero]

As has been mentioned, some folks don't like the way they look. Same is true with wind turbines. I never liked the little spots of carbon on my car that came over from the power plant on Cape Cod that was burning oil, but different people have different aesthetic tastes.

What was most interesting to me about my house purchaser is that he was all about money, and always getting the best deal. But over and over we see that the economic analysis dissolves in the face of firmly held ideology.

My system is 9 years old, it's a Sunpower system and the panels are warranteed to produce no less than 92% of rated power in 25 years, from a company founded in 1986 and now owned by the French oil company Total. The value of the SRECs and the power itself exceeds the amount I spent by $10K currently.

I was speculating to my wife that any potential purchasers who would take issue with solar panels would have to be motivated by politics, and not by rational thought. I’ll leave that alone. But maybe I’ll consider a windmill so I can kill some bald eagles too. :rolleyes:

[glepore]

The solar tax credit was indeed a credit (versus a deduction) -- 30% of the system cost back to you, separate from what you owned in taxes.

So...if you have $0 in income, and owe nothing in taxes, you'll get a check from the IRS for $10,000 against a $30K system cost.

Back then. Edit-Now, its a dollar for dollar offset against any tax liability. Better than a deduction, but you do NOT get a check back from the Feds if the amount of the credit exceeds your tax liability. And it won't exactly zero out your liability either. I ended up owing the IRS $500 and carried forward a large credit for next year.

Just a caution for those with low tax liabilities.

[C40_guy]

Back then. Edit-Now, its a dollar for dollar offset against any tax liability. Better than a deduction, but you do NOT get a check back from the Feds if the amount of the credit exceeds your tax liability. And it won't exactly zero out your liability either. I ended up owing the IRS $500 and carried forward a large credit for next year.

Just a caution for those with low tax liabilities.

Thanks for the correction. I'll change my post...

[C40_guy]

As has been mentioned, some folks don't like the way they look. Same is true with wind turbines. I never liked the little spots of carbon on my car that came over from the power plant on Cape Cod that was burning oil, but different people have different aesthetic tastes.


I think that plant is NG now :)

I don't get the aesthetic thing either. Personally I think they're cool, in the same way that double insulated 2x4 wall with an air gap or a SIPS wall is cool (even though both would be completely invisible after construction).

We signed the agreement on our house and immediately signed a contract with the local installer to make sure that we were able to complete the installation by the end of the year...even before we closed on the house.

Then, a week before closing, my wife is up late surfing the Internet and finds an HOA covenant document. Broker never mentioned it. Oops. One of the covenants is no solar panels facing the street. Wow! Fortunately our southern exposure was on the back of the house...but this could have been a deal breaker!

I just don't get it. At a neighborhood meeting I asked if there was any appetite to remove this covenant. Nope. I know of one person who would like to put up panels but only found a couple of other houses in the neighborhood (via Google Earth) which might be candidates for solar. So I dropped it.

[Yoshi]

We live in southern Maine near Portland. Installed a system about five years ago. Cost about 10K after tax credit. Have not paid for electricity since.
Our payback should be around 12-13 years. The warranty is 25 years so we should get 12-13 years minimum of no cost electricity.
Yes, snow slides right off.
Would do it again in a heartbeat

[C40_guy]

I was speculating to my wife that any potential purchasers who would take issue with solar panels would have to be motivated by politics, and not by rational thought. I’ll leave that alone. But maybe I’ll consider a windmill so I can kill some bald eagles too. :rolleyes:

My best friend, who took the solar plunge years before we did, said his wife had concerns about how panels look, and specifically, whether they would cause problems when it came time to sell.

His response - "screw it, I wouldn't sell to anyone who didn't like how they look."

:)

Fair enough. I wouldn't care either, but it's a non-issue for us as our panels are rear facing.