An idea to kill doping

[saab2000]

Amnesty for everything to the end of 2006. People can talk and clear the air. The law of omerta can be crushed without fear.

Then put in new procedures making it more or less foolproof. Yes, this could be done.

Whatever happened, happened. Who gives a crap anymore what Museeuw did. Does anyone really believe he was alone in doing it?

Amnesty and openness will help solve this problem.

[onekgguy]

...and i say let floyd keep his tdf win...let's move on already.

Kevin

[J.Greene]

Amnesty for everything to the end of 2006. People can talk and clear the air. The law of omerta can be crushed without fear.

Then put in new procedures making it more or less foolproof. Yes, this could be done.

Whatever happened, happened. Who gives a crap anymore what Museeuw did. Does anyone really believe he was alone in doing it?

Amnesty and openness will help solve this problem.

It would go a long way, but it wouldn't change human nature. Take some pills or injections and you get to date a rock star and fly in private jets everywhere you go. That won't change atmo.

JG

[AgilisMerlin]

"Amnesty and openness will help solve this problem."


won't pay the lawyer fees.

amerliN

[saab2000]

"Amnesty and openness will help solve this problem."


won't pay the lawyer fees.

amerliN

There won't be any lawyers if there is amnesty

[Erik.Lazdins]

...and i say let floyd keep his tdf win...let's move on already.

Kevin

+1 Let Floyd keep the win - he was the strongest rider in the race.

[AgilisMerlin]

There won't be any lawyers if there is amnesty


Amnesty means sport is reduced to plain entertainment.

Lawyers would not let it happen

Lawyers run the UCI

Lawyers run the Protour

Lawyers and Lance Armstrong run USA Cycling

Lawyers run USADA

money money money money money


Amnesty = Choas



amerlin

[pdxmech13]

saab get this idea trademarked.
2008 will be the year of the Chinese

[saab2000]

Amnesty means sport is reduced to plain entertainment.

Lawyers would not let it happen

Lawyers run the UCI

Lawyers run the Protour

Lawyers and Lance Armstrong run USA Cycling

Lawyers run USADA

money money money money money


Amnesty = Choas



amerlin

I agree with some of what you say and disagree with other parts.

First, cycling is too hard to be just entertainment. Ask Fstrthnu. Cyclists ride hard because they love it. They love the pain and the suffering and they love beating the other guy, whether it is Andy and John on the 7:30 AM Virginia Beach rides or it is Bob Mionske at the Wisconsin State Road Race Champs or it is Peter S and Oliver P in Switzerland.

There are no spectators in any of those events and yet the riders are riding hard. I can remember riding as hard over the Schindeleggi and Hulftegg and Aetsmaennig as hard as effin' Pantani with those guys.

Cycling wants to be the NFL and FIFA and F1, but it never will be. No matter what.

It is pure sport, though it has obviously been badly corrupted.

Second, the lawyers within the European way don't have the power they have here. They have a function, but they do not control things.

Amnesty will not lead to greater chaos. I actually believe that most cyclist want a clean sport. They like the corporate side of it for the money, exposure and the crowds it brings to the Tour de France, etc. But I don't think most cyclists really want to pollute their bodies. Some don't care. But the guys I knew in Switzerland (who were polluted BTW) did not like it one bit. They knew it was how the game was played, but that did not mean they liked it.

Money is big. But this sport would continue without money. Other sports, like NFL and F1 and NASCAR would not. Soccer and baseball would continue.

Without the money ( and Protour, etc.), it would go back to where it was in the 50s, 60s and 70s, where it would be sponsored by bike companies and local interests. Watch a video of the Giro or Tour in the 70s. The crowds were 75% less than today and the sport was real, even if cheaters existed then too.

So I stand by what I say. Amnesty for past offenders would help clear the air and create a new cycling sport. As it stands, with past 'heroes' declaring their guilt all the time and rumor and innuendo surrounding the rest it is clearly broken and needs to be fixed.

Amesty and a new start would help. Getting rid of the ProTour would help too.

IMHO.

[AgilisMerlin]

you'll be the first person i sue, saab, if you push this amnesty crusade to fruition.............


money money money money money money money




amerliN

[saab2000]

I am not a lawyer and if I am sued will, as hard as it is to fathom, lower my already low consideration of the legal profession.

I know that for you people it is all about how you can fatten your own wallets. But some of us actually ride fast because it is nice to do so.

:fight:

[BBB]

Yeah, bloody lawyers. That Shakespeare character was right after all...

[saab2000]

My point is that there is no possible good that can come of some bizarre investigation of Johann Museeuw.

Lawyers are still trying to suck money from the dead (For their own pockets, not for the families of the victims. Don't kid yourself.) at Swissair after the crash off Halifax in 1998. They are not high on my list of my favorite people.

But I did not start this argument to rant about lawyers.

Rather it is to state my opinion that an amnesty and a 'Truth and Reconciliation' period is what is needed in this very ill sport of professional cycling.

[AgilisMerlin]

I know that for you people it is all about how you can fatten your own wallets. But some of us actually ride fast because it is nice to do so.

:fight:


Actually,


And my point is:

if we went forward in trying to bring down the protour, and wada and everyone:under the broad sweeping hand of Amnesty -

everyone would be sueing everyone involved in cycling: the federations, teams, protour, uci, grand tour organizers etc. etc. etc.

(actually this probably is happening at the moment since the EU's lawyers are getting involved with the pissing match between the uci and grand tour org.'s)

that is just my point.

everyone involved down to the bottle washers have a stake in it, liveliehood (sp)

I say Amnesty for current athletes, still competing, who confess -

but the major problem with this dream concept, is that the team gets canned, sponsors pull out and people lose jobs...............

people that lose money, or potentially will, SUE.

i say, keep catching the cheats, and support Wada. Why not ?

(Saiz - buying blood in a cafe, with a suitcase of frickin bills, is let back into the protour because of his law team.....................he was buying bags of blood...........Count Manuel Dracula) Amnesty - what for ?


i like riding my bike too.


jmo


amerlin

[AgilisMerlin]

But I did not start this argument to rant about lawyers.

Rather it is to state my opinion that an amnesty and a 'Truth and Reconciliation' period is what is needed in this very ill sport of professional cycling.


Lets not call this an argument, i am just banging on my keyboard :)


I just cannot see it happening. I think most people are discouraged by people being caught taking drugs, or the fact that heroes cheat. i think, any change in the status quo is going to involve lawyers.

Let me ask you this.

If cycling took a hiatus. how would it be organized differently afterwards ?

Is it a good idea for people who admit to cheating to not be punished ?

i don't know where it is heading.

but we all know more people are going to be caught.

amerlin

[BBB]

An amnesty won't work imho.

I doubt it would promote people to confess or at least your Armstrong, Ullrich and Bassos of this world to confess (assuming they have something to confess).

Even if they did confess it would become a lawyer's picnic. Someone like Armstrong with his myriad of endorsement contracts would probably find Nike et al trying to claw back the millions it paid him to endorse their gear. But, more importantly, Armstrong who has been involved in a number of different legal actions would probably find himself up for perjury charges. Lying under oath is generally considered a no no.

Setting this to one side, what happens when the amnesty period is over? Aren't you left with the same situation you had before the amnesty period started, save for and except that a few people came out and spilled the beans (new doping rules or not)?

It's a creative solution, but I don't think it would work and there are significant reasons why cyclists, particularly the big name cyclists, would not confess, even under an amnesty arrangement.

[A.L.Breguet]

An amnesty won't work imho.

I doubt it would promote people to confess or at least your Armstrong, Ullrich and Bassos of this world to confess (assuming they have something to confess).

Even if they did confess it would become a lawyer's picnic. Someone like Armstrong with his myriad of endorsement contracts would probably find Nike et al trying to claw back the millions it paid him to endorse their gear. But, more importantly, Armstrong who has been involved in a number of different legal actions would probably find himself up for perjury charges. Lying under oath is generally considered a no no.

Setting this to one side, what happens when the amnesty period is over? Aren't you left with the same situation you had before the amnesty period started, save for and except that a few people came out and spilled the beans (new doping rules or not)?

It's a creative solution, but I don't think it would work and there are significant reasons why cyclists, particularly the big name cyclists, would not confess, even under an amnesty arrangement.


What he said.
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[ada@prorider.or]

LET them pay back the price money
the year salary ,and the moeny received after that
also fine of 200 %

they will stop


now if they get caught they only have to pay back the price money for that race, thats peanuts for them

[Ray]

I actually believe that most cyclist want a clean sport.
You're surely right about this, but rules/laws/regulations are not in place for MOST law abiding participants in any sport/business/activity. They're in place because SOME FEW will always abuse whatever the accepted rules/norms of behavior are in place in order to get an advantage.

Lets say, for the sake of discussion, that the amnesty idea was implemented and EVERYONE who'd ever doped came clean and the sport really did start from square one. Assuming there was still money in the sport, and prestige, and sponsorship, and the riders were still treated as heros by the zillions of fans who lined the roads..... how long do you think it would take for a handfull of riders to start bending and breaking the rules to get an advantage? I'm thinking a matter of days or weeks, but I could be wrong. It wouldn't take long though.

If you're right that it would be possible to institute a system that would truly make it impossible to cheat without getting caught, OK, then we have something. But I don't believe it. There's always an arms race between regulators and rule breakers and there's no reason to believe the regulators will always be ahead in that race - they don't have the money or the incentive.

I like your optimism Saab, but I don't share it. I've spent a portion of my career as a bureaucrat, trying to write and administer zoning regulations to keep the bad developers at bay without killing the creative possibilities for the really good developers out there, of which there are many. Its a very very very difficult balance to reach - you have to make adjustments constantly. And the development business isn't as competitive as pro racing - there is room for many winners - both those who cheat and those who don't. In pro racing, as soon as a handfull start to cheat and start winning everything, we're back to where we are today.

We got here for a reason. I don't think it will ever really change.

-Ray

[saab2000]

My amnesty thoughts probably won't work. But I am not as naive about the sport as it sounds.

I don't think any of the other ideas regarding more and more punishments have worked either. The negative incentives (not getting suspended) have not worked. Maybe a positive incentive would work.

What possible good is to be found by digging up Johann Museeuw's past? Does anyone really believe that most of the riders of that era were not involved in some way, shape or form?

There is no perfect solution, but if a clean sport is to be had, something must be done and the current system clearly doesn't work.

Oddly, there is some admiration for riders like Millar who have come clean and now speak of the 'Bread and Water' lifestyle. He may actually be clean now.