Contextualizing cycling within lifting/muscle mass goals - nutrition advice needed

[zambenini]

Hey, gang, I could use some help with nutrition and training advice according to my fitness goals. I ride a SS MTB and that's pretty much the extent of my athletic bike riding. Biking is more akin to prayer/meditation for me. Don't get me wrong, I like to go fast, but I'm focusing my fitness and riding on longer term goals and the needs of my fam right now.

Basically I'm embarking on a recomposition. I am 6'2", 205, and I think right around or a shade under 20% BF based on the Navy calculator. I'm 35, want to take as much muscle mass into my 40s as possible. So, my specific fitness goal is to remain the same weight, but with 10-15 pounds more muscle, so that would be 205 lbs, 12-15%BF.

I'm doing less cardio (i.e. riding) and starting to lift more. Works with my kids' needs, to boot. All I really want is three short (45min-1.5hr) rides/week. I'm doing three total body lifting days and daily core training.

Anyone out there with similar goals, or experience contextualizing a more cardio-oriented sport like cycling within their lifting/muscle mass gains and goals? What especially I need are comments on macros for this kind of training? Calorie maintenance/deficit/surplus? What has worked for you?

Thanks,
John

[skitlets]

I compete in Olympic weightlifting. The sport has weight classes so I am used to consistently gaining and losing up to 5 kilos.

Whether you are massing, maintaining, or cutting, the general rule is 1g protein per lean body weight. If you're 205 and ~20% BF, that's 164g of protein per day. You can also use 1g per pound of body weight, which is what I follow.

From there, you can divvy up the remaining calories how you like, with the general rule of thumb for fats as 30-50% of your caloric intake. Assuming ~2500 calories/day, that's about ~100-120g of fat. The remainder of your calories will be carbs.

On training days, slightly more carbs and reduce fats. I would and do consider my bike rides as active recovery/non training days, since cycling is ancillary and I am not aiming to improve endurance or speed during my weightlifting cycles.

With your body comp, you'd likely benefit more from a modest cut first. Hope this helps.

[mt2u77]

In my experience, you "can't," or at least it's extremely difficult, to do both (long, steady) cycling and the muscly-shredded thing well at the same time. It's good that you've established which one you're willing to move to the backseat. Of the two, weightlifting takes less of a time commitment but perhaps even more discipline around diet and training regimen to reach your potential. That could be a good or bad thing based on your family commitments.

Personally, I need lots of protein (more than is comfortable for me to eat--I'm not a big meat eater) and fats to have a low bf% AND carry a lot of muscle. For me, a carb rich diet equals either skinny and lean, or strong and fat. I'm the same height but settled on a lower weight of around 185-190. It's my all-rounder size, and lets me skew towards my cycling/XC ski/paddling/swimming/trail running interests without having to resort to a crazy diet. I go by the philosophy of-- if I can't achieve it with a mediterranean-ish diet, then it's probably not that healthy of a goal for me. Eat healthy, do the things you love, and take the body that comes with it.

Your goals are your own, so I won't question them, but I do think there is an over emphasis on carrying muscle bulk for graceful aging. Range of motion and functional strength are more important, and in general lower body weight is better for long, healthy life expectancy.

[zambenini]

On training days, slightly more carbs and reduce fats. I would and do consider my bike rides as active recovery/non training days, since cycling is ancillary and I am not aiming to improve endurance or speed during my weightlifting cycles.

With your body comp, you'd likely benefit more from a modest cut first. Hope this helps.

Dynamite, thanks. I am definitely skewing toward fewer calories, but not by much. How do you define "modest"? Also, can you comment on how you ride if you think of riding as active recovery? I definitely like to hammer (for me) when I go out, I'm just greatly circumscribing the volume in favor of intensity.

That could be a good or bad thing based on your family commitments. That's the truth! Lifting doesn't take much time, but when I go on a tear with it, my wife does complain about how much I eat! Sorry, I needed that chicken breast, dear. Yes, the med diet is good - basically my diet, only I'm not really circumscribing the amount of yogurt, fish, poultry, and eggs I want. I get a buncha protein from peanuts and black beans, but I find my body feels happiest with eggs and fishies and stuff, too.

[Peter P.]

You also have to determine whether your body type is conducive to gaining muscle.

If you're more endomorphic than mesomorphic, then gaining muscle might not come easy for you.

I'm inclined to agree with skitlets; reduce your bodyfat first.

What usually happens is, you burn calories while lifting/biking so at the same time you may be gaining muscle you're losing bodyfat weight. It'll appear as if you're not making improvement, but in reality you are just not as you desired.

[skitlets]

Dynamite, thanks. I am definitely skewing toward fewer calories, but not by much. How do you define "modest"? Also, can you comment on how you ride if you think of riding as active recovery? I definitely like to hammer (for me) when I go out, I'm just greatly circumscribing the volume in favor of intensity.

diet stuff
The reason to cut first is because the general scientific consensus is that putting on muscle is easier when you are leaner. If you can get down to 12-15% BF first, you'll be more successful on a mass. If you are very new to lifting, you may be able to lose weight and put on muscle at the same time!

If you've never done a strict calorie count cut before, I would say modest is a -250 calorie deficit for 2 weeks and -500 for the next 4-6 weeks. If that goes well, you can try -500 or -750 for another 4. Total cut duration of 12 weeks.

Cuts are a mental game and you'll have to learn what works for you. Some people need a very strict program to follow (RP diet is great for this) and others are more intuitive.

The longer your cuts go, the more calories you will need to reduce. The opposite is true for massing. Your body has a baseline and the farther you stray from it, the harder it gets to lose or gain weight. For this reason, I keep my masses and cuts at 8 weeks, then run a maintenance diet for 4-8 weeks to reset the new baseline. The general recommended max time for mass/cut cycles are ~16 weeks but I lack the mental fortitude to do either for that long.

training stuff
I compete in the sport of weightlifting (not bodybuilding, not powerlifting. each sport has its own demands). My active recovery rides are 1-2 hours of zone 2-3 riding. I also commute 20/miles a week. No intervals, no sprints, just comfortable slow rides. Sometimes I bring my camera or coffee. During the peak phase for a competition (last 2-3 weeks of a cycle), I cut the recovery ride out.

It really depends on your overall training capacity and recovery ability. I am close to your age and 4 WL sessions/week is enough to wipe me out. But I am also on periodized programming that is designed to kick my butt, and WL movements + squats are all very CNS taxing. Bodybuilding isn't as CNS taxing, thus the programming and need to do high reps and volume.

If you are sleeping and eating well, you could probably do your 3 workouts/week +1 intense cycle session. In a mass, +2 cycle sessions. Things will get more difficult in a long cut. I don't think sprinting and bodybuilding are incongruous and you could probably make a program that incorporates the 2, but endurance rides won't help your goal of adding muscle mass.

As I said in my first reply, I take ~2 months off a year from WL to accomplish a cycling goal, like a weekend tour or a century. During that time, I am still lifting but only 3x/week and at much reduced intensity. I up my leisure rides to 3x/week, with 1 long ride on the weekend for mileage.

Training is all IMO as someone who has competed in WL for 5 years with decent numbers and hope to make it to nationals, even as I age into masters. Diet, body comp, and training are all a long game. You can find ways to lift and cycle, mass and cut. You can shift emphasis over the course of a year, e.g., sprint and BB on mass cycles; on a cut BB 2/week and incorporate long rides.

[zambenini]

Awesome stuff, Skitlets, thanks for your insights. I will report back with how it goes. I do expect some newbie gains, hopefully more as I can get back to doing some of the classic lifts. I am doing body weight only stuff at home due to COVID (to actually decent results, surprisingly). I lifted a wee bit in high school and college but not much and that's been 15 years ago at least. I started doing pushups and pullups and stuff when I gave up competitive bike racing, mainly just to clear the head and get the blood flowing during the day, and have put on a fair amount of mass compared to how I was before. I started lifting a little bit again a year or two ago, mainly to help with mountain biking - core work, kettlebells, deadlifts, etc. I wound up really liking how it makes me feel and what it does for me.

[XXtwindad]

In my experience, you "can't," or at least it's extremely difficult, to do both (long, steady) cycling and the muscly-shredded thing well at the same time. It's good that you've established which one you're willing to move to the backseat. Of the two, weightlifting takes less of a time commitment but perhaps even more discipline around diet and training regimen to reach your potential. That could be a good or bad thing based on your family commitments.

Personally, I need lots of protein (more than is comfortable for me to eat--I'm not a big meat eater) and fats to have a low bf% AND carry a lot of muscle. For me, a carb rich diet equals either skinny and lean, or strong and fat. I'm the same height but settled on a lower weight of around 185-190. It's my all-rounder size, and lets me skew towards my cycling/XC ski/paddling/swimming/trail running interests without having to resort to a crazy diet. I go by the philosophy of-- if I can't achieve it with a mediterranean-ish diet, then it's probably not that healthy of a goal for me. Eat healthy, do the things you love, and take the body that comes with it.

Your goals are your own, so I won't question them, but I do think there is an over emphasis on carrying muscle bulk for graceful aging. Range of motion and functional strength are more important, and in general lower body weight is better for long, healthy life expectancy.



I think this is very well articulated. Bone density diminishes as people age, (particularly among women) so it's important to do some type of resistance training.

I think it's interesting to observe the cross section between the "average Joe" weightlifter and "average Joe" cyclist. Assuming that's the only activity the respective groups do, neither of them will be fit. Someone who exclusively lifts weight to the detriment of cardio and flexibility is not fit. Conversely, a hard-core cyclist with no upper body strength (e.g. the ability to do 20 push-ups with good form) is not fit either.

That being said, I don't really get added muscle mass with no functional benefit. But, as the previous poster said, to each their own.

[zambenini]

This is where I will need more education. I would have thought many lifts would aid in function. Mountain biking is the reason I started doing deadlifts in the first place, for instance - the jump is a hip hinge, right? Apart from a few lifts like that, most of my current training involves combined movements with a view toward "athletic moves," i.e. stuff you do playing sports, so you do your bicep curls in combo with a lunge or explosive moves like split-squat jumps.

I get that some training will help on the climbing pitch or paddling the kayak or whatnot whereas some might not, but I would think that a lot of these classic lifts would be of aid, too. If you can deadlift x, you can move your buddy's piano, if you have a strong chest/shoulders/back (and train supporting muscles), you can throw a ball good.

Can you elaborate on functional moves/training? Is my thinking off?


[/B]

I think this is very well articulated. Bone density diminishes as people age, (particularly among women) so it's important to do some type of resistance training.

I think it's interesting to observe the cross section between the "average Joe" weightlifter and "average Joe" cyclist. Assuming that's the only activity the respective groups do, neither of them will be fit. Someone who exclusively lifts weight to the detriment of cardio and flexibility is not fit. Conversely, a hard-core cyclist with no upper body strength (e.g. the ability to do 20 push-ups with good form) is not fit either.

That being said, I don't really get added muscle mass with no functional benefit. But, as the previous poster said, to each their own.

[XXtwindad]

This is where I will need more education. I would have thought many lifts would aid in function. Mountain biking is the reason I started doing deadlifts in the first place, for instance - the jump is a hip hinge, right? Apart from a few lifts like that, most of my current training involves combined movements with a view toward "athletic moves," i.e. stuff you do playing sports, so you do your bicep curls in combo with a lunge or explosive moves like split-squat jumps.

I get that some training will help on the climbing pitch or paddling the kayak or whatnot whereas some might not, but I would think that a lot of these classic lifts would be of aid, too. If you can deadlift x, you can move your buddy's piano, if you have a strong chest/shoulders/back (and train supporting muscles), you can throw a ball good.

Can you elaborate on functional moves/training? Is my thinking off?

Well, I just reread your original post. It looks like you want to cut fat while maintaining (or possibly adding) muscle mass. It also sounds like you want to exercises that assist with performance on the mountain bike. Doing jumps is an explosive movement that involves hip hinges (as you said) adductors (mountain bikers and horseback riders tend to have strong adductors) and the ab complex. If performance is the ultimate goal, I'd try compound movements mixed in with some plyometric stuff.

Try this: start off in a push-up position. Spring forward into a squat with both feet wide on the ground with your toes pointed out. This will activate your adductors rather than your quads which tend to compensate for inhibited prime movers (glutes, hip flexors). Make sure your butt is raised medium high. Not a crouch but not all the way up with your back straight. You should start to feel a burn in your adductors. Hold for a count of ten seconds. Spring back (or step back if you have bad knees) and, with your hands wide (so as not to overemphasize your triceps) do two push-ups. You should feel it in your abs if you're doing it correctly. Try a set of 10.

I'm not a big proponent of lifting heavy amounts of weight. It might come in handy when you move your buddy's piano, but (a) how often do you really do that and (b) too many people screw themselves up by overemphasizing certain muscle groups such as the lumbar complex because other muscle groups are shortened/tight such as the hamstrings and hip flexors.

Hopefully, that helps answer your question :)

[cgates66]

I'm basically "you", albeit older (similar goals, similar size). Starting at 20% body fat means your objective of gaining mass / strength while losing some fat is very achievable, esp. if your frame is medium or bigger - and given your age, should be a fairly short time (3 - 6 months? depends on how hard you work, genetics and diet).

The key will be balancing your cycling load so you recover - the only way to achieve your goals is to lift weights, and lots of endurance cycling will at some point interfere with that.

For me, 4,000 - 5,000 calories is required, and I target a "zone" diet more or less (30 fat, 30 protein, 40 carb), if lifting and cycling. A little less if only lifting or only cycling. I drink beer freely.

Personal experience is that core compound lifts with good form are the most effective: deadlift, squat, bench press and pull-ups plus whatever else you want to do for "balance" - curls for biceps, shoulder press if your shoulders are good etc. Hanging cleans and power cleans are effective, but complex.

There are different opinions on frequency, but for me - I've gotten solid results doing lower-body 2x / week (one heavier day, one more volume-oriented day), and upper body 2x / week. I ALWAYS rest the legs after a leg day. With a program like that you can do cardio 3 - 4x / week.

Given your objectives, anaerobic conditioning will be more effective than long/slow - sprints, VO2-max efforts etc. with the occasional long-slow thrown in for good measure. You will get more "afterburn" on the fat side, and stimulate more muscle / be less catabolic while working.

You might want to see what sprint-oriented track cyclists do, because some of them are pretty big - you'd be surprised how little they actually ride, I suspect.

A key focus is avoiding injury, esp. lower-back and knee, and to a lesser extent shoulder, so focus on form and quality (don't half squat, don't round your back for DL etc.) and not chasing stupid numbers that nobody cares about. I find leg press to be a good "supplement" to squat, as there is no load on the back - but be careful! Leg press can harder on the knees if you are sloppy! And don't squat after deadlift.

The biggest thing is, if you're going to put in this kind of work, you gotta eat a ton and sleep, though.

[XXtwindad]

I'm basically "you", albeit older (similar goals, similar size). Starting at 20% body fat means your objective of gaining mass / strength while losing some fat is very achievable, esp. if your frame is medium or bigger - and given your age, should be a fairly short time (3 - 6 months? depends on how hard you work, genetics and diet).

The key will be balancing your cycling load so you recover - the only way to achieve your goals is to lift weights, and lots of endurance cycling will at some point interfere with that.

For me, 4,000 - 5,000 calories is required, and I target a "zone" diet more or less (30 fat, 30 protein, 40 carb), if lifting and cycling. A little less if only lifting or only cycling. I drink beer freely.

Personal experience is that core compound lifts with good form are the most effective: deadlift, squat, bench press and pull-ups plus whatever else you want to do for "balance" - curls for biceps, shoulder press if your shoulders are good etc. Hanging cleans and power cleans are effective, but complex.

There are different opinions on frequency, but for me - I've gotten solid results doing lower-body 2x / week (one heavier day, one more volume-oriented day), and upper body 2x / week. I ALWAYS rest the legs after a leg day. With a program like that you can do cardio 3 - 4x / week.

Given your objectives, anaerobic conditioning will be more effective than long/slow - sprints, VO2-max efforts etc. with the occasional long-slow thrown in for good measure. You will get more "afterburn" on the fat side, and stimulate more muscle / be less catabolic while working.

You might want to see what sprint-oriented track cyclists do, because some of them are pretty big - you'd be surprised how little they actually ride, I suspect.

A key focus is avoiding injury, esp. lower-back and knee, and to a lesser extent shoulder, so focus on form and quality (don't half squat, don't round your back for DL etc.) and not chasing stupid numbers that nobody cares about. I find leg press to be a good "supplement" to squat, as there is no load on the back - but be careful! Leg press can harder on the knees if you are sloppy! And don't squat after deadlift.

The biggest thing is, if you're going to put in this kind of work, you gotta eat a ton and sleep, though.

Respectfully, I disagree. This is a terrible exercise, if you're talking about the machine. Very high risk for injury. First one on this list: https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/absolute-worst-exercises-men/#:~:text=Leg Press “The leg press,amount of stress on

[benb]

I'm like 0.5" shorter than you and about to turn 43.

I was 205 and probably similar BF % when I got out of college and I started cycling about 18 months after that after a year of working out hard in the gym and only dropping down to about 195lbs.

I dropped down into the 170s really fast without losing any strength really back then, but I was like 24! I have never gone above about 185lbs since I got a road bike. Most years I have never gone above 180lbs.

I am not a super super dedicated lifter but I've been lifting since I was 13.. I would take breaks in the summer when cycling a lot but get back to it every winter.

We are all different but my guess is like others that if you really get fit & halve your body fat you are going to be lighter and leaner and it's unrealistic to expect to go sub-10% BF at 205 unless you go crazy on the body building & supplements and no cycling.

The amount of cycling you're talking about is fine with maintaining muscle mass if you are paying attention to lifting. But you can't go too crazy with long duration cycling and maintain muscle mass. If you start training to be fast for many hours biking at high intensity you just can't lift high intensity at the same time and almost all of us will lose muscle mass over a season of that.

Lifting requires a lot of experimentation.. I've been reading books on it for a long time and always did 10-20 reps per set cause I was interested in cycling. Turns out I make a lot more progress doing more like 5 reps per set... and I had a big blind spot for years on that.

Stick to the basics, squat, bench press, overhead press, bent over row, dead lift. Easy stuff to get equipped for at home. It's easy to add in a pull up bar, pushups, etc.. too.