How to not "turtle"

[Smitty2k1]

After 90 minutes or so on the bike my neck starts to hurt. I'm almost positive this is because I "turtle" when I ride, that is I shrug my shoulders. The longer I'm on the bike the worse it is and the longer my neck remains sore afterwards.

I'm sure some of this is due to bike fit, but I had a professional fit done on a different bike last year and it still happened, so I'm also convinced some of this may just be due to bad form/posture/flexibility/strength (something that was not evaluated during my bike fit).

I've been actively trying NOT to shrug my shoulders and turtle on the bike and trying to come up with ways while cycling to relax my shoulders. Changing hand positions (from the hoods to the drops) doesn't seem to make much of a difference. I've also read I should "pull my elbows to my hips" but if I do this I feel like I need to engage my core to the max to remain stable, and I can only do that for short periods of time.

Does anyone have any good "cues" to try while on (or off) the bike to help with shoulder shrugging and neck pain? Any suggestions in riding position to try? Or any stretches or mobility work to try?

[AngryScientist]

strengthen your core and back.

start adding some planks and push-ups to your daily routine. this sounds like a case of weaker core muscles that are struggling to hold position in the road position.

if nothing else, a stronger core is always a good thing for all of life's activities.

that's my advice.

[Nomadmax]

Unlock your elbows and pull them in. As mentioned, it's core strength that should be keeping your torso in the correct position.

[djg21]

After 90 minutes or so on the bike my neck starts to hurt. I'm almost positive this is because I "turtle" when I ride, that is I shrug my shoulders. The longer I'm on the bike the worse it is and the longer my neck remains sore afterwards.

I'm sure some of this is due to bike fit, but I had a professional fit done on a different bike last year and it still happened, so I'm also convinced some of this may just be due to bad form/posture/flexibility/strength (something that was not evaluated during my bike fit).

I've been actively trying NOT to shrug my shoulders and turtle on the bike and trying to come up with ways while cycling to relax my shoulders. Changing hand positions (from the hoods to the drops) doesn't seem to make much of a difference. I've also read I should "pull my elbows to my hips" but if I do this I feel like I need to engage my core to the max to remain stable, and I can only do that for short periods of time.

Does anyone have any good "cues" to try while on (or off) the bike to help with shoulder shrugging and neck pain? Any suggestions in riding position to try? Or any stretches or mobility work to try?

Is your seat level? It it’s pointed down, you will support more of your weight I]on your arms. Do you have excessive drop to the bars? Same thing. Does your bike fit you? Do you perhaps need more reach? I’m not addressing core strength and stability, which has been addressed by others.

[benb]

Something about your position or core strength is probably causing you to round out your lower back... your upper back will probably follow suit, which functionally shortens up your torso.

Once your torso is hunched up and shortened you'll feel like you need to hunch shoulders & lock out elbows to reach the bars and hold yourself up.

Keep working on your fit while you also work on strengthening your core.

If you can do squats with good form realize your posture should feel like that on the bike.

Professionally fit doesn't mean much. It means they take your money and tell you something, it doesn't mean they are guaranteed to get you to the correct fit.

Personally things that cause me to round out my back:
- Tight hamstrings
- Saddle too low (becomes an issue at the top of the pedal stroke)
- Saddle too high (becomes an issue if the bars are too low)
- Saddle tilted nose up too much, and level could be nose up too much depending on the saddle model
- Saddle fore-aft adjusted too far aft (problem at top of pedal stroke)

[redir]

Can you ride no handed? Every once in a while I will do stretches on the bike. Reach up high, swing the arms back and forth, and so on. Angry's suggestion of core strenth is key too.

[Steve in SLO]

One data point: I used to have the same issue with my neck and shoulders. I found that my pelvis was sitting really vertically on the saddle, necessitating me to bend forward in a curve to reach the bars. My solution was to start each ride by mounting the bike, then stand on my pedals and drop my torso over the bars by bending my arms and straightening my back and pelvis into a line (thereby forcing my pelvis into a more horizontal tilt on the saddle) then lower myself onto the saddle that way. I’ve written it in a complicated way, but it’s very simple and takes me about three seconds to do. My lower back feels much more straight, and I am no longer hunched and uncomfortable.

[robt57]

Unbalanced core sounds like, time for bird dog stretch calisthenics.

I suspect also your core is having your bike/leg muscles rotating the hip/pelvis back [rearward]. Is your bike too small or set up for inadequate reach I wonder?

Another thing I think exacerbates this is a saddle too far forward and/or nose tilted down. Too high until your acclimated is not a good part of the equation.

[djdj]

You may tend to hunch your shoulders if your hands on the hoods are not following a straight, natural line from your forearms, but are instead rotated forward. If that is the case, rotating the hoods back toward your body may help.

[Fixed]

Forward folds And
There is this thing called plow pose
Could help find ease And Steadiness on the bike Imho
Cheers all

[Smitty2k1]

Thanks for the tips everyone. Been working on my core strength (though a lot less since the gyms have been closed for 3 months...) and not sure if its helping - but it's certainly not hurting!

One item of note is that every saddle I've tried I've found that I need a lot of "nose up" tilt to not feel like I'm falling forward. Always made me wonder if I had something going on with my pelvis rotation.

I'll try some of the cues y'all mentioned and keep at those planks.

[robt57]

One item of note is that every saddle I've tried I've found that I need a lot of "nose up" tilt to not feel like I'm falling forward. Always made me wonder if I had something going on with my pelvis rotation.


Makes me wonder if you are on too small a bike.

Are you also experiencing between should blade feeling of pinching?

[FlashUNC]

Core work, core work, core work.

And a poster of Frank Vandenbroucke for aspirational end goals never hurts.

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/9AMmst2Sqb5ieYAuE6BmpD-1200-80.jpg

[pasadena]

You need to do another bike fit. Try a different fitter.
Your balance on the bike is not right, and your body is trying to compensate. Really, get an objective opinion or two, and paying for a fit is way cheaper than dealing with injuries.

[robt57]

You need to do another bike fit. Try a different fitter.
Your balance on the bike is not right, and your body is trying to compensate. Really, get an objective opinion or two, and paying for a fit is way cheaper than dealing with injuries.

Sure seems right.

The experts had me on 56CM OCLV late 90s. I moved up to a 58 fast due to a lot of what I am reading here.

A friend had a 60 CADD3 road bike and let me roll it for a few miles on a club ride. I felt like I could breath, although it was a bit tall I could just be flat footed standing over it.

Early 2000 I did the whole measure up thing with Carl Strong. He was saying 588mm TT eff. I was skeptical, but went with his expertise. The 2016 Madone I have now is 582mm TT eff. 585 IS my sweet spot. I have a 603 long/low Domane Team Classic I just use very short reach bars and a 11CM stem.

The 56 5200 OCLV had a 56CM TT, the 58 I felt a bit better on a 57TT.

The 57 TT bike I used to always get crap for the tip of the saddle pointing up in pics and person. But it was the only way I could ride the too short road bikes.

I rode Carls creation for 10 years with 588mm eff TT for 10 years with a 13CM stem and 118mm reach bars. [Then a multi fracture leg/knee had me off the bike for a few seasons]. Still have the Strong, still ride [less stack/reach that 20 yr ago].

Three previous fits leading up to my final happiness missed what Carl caught. Long Femurs and ape arms.

For 20 years now I ride very close to what Carl set me up on. Just shortened the stack and reach maybe -2CM from 20 years back. I am 63 now.

[pasadena]

Why are you quoting me? I am responding to the OP.
Diagnosing fit issues on the internet, frankly, is ridiculous.
Getting general sizing and measuring questinos answered is fine, but diagnosing biomechnical issues and fine tuning - which can be massive- can only be done in person.

Anecdotal fit discussion, while interesting and enlightening, does nothing to help the OP.

Sure seems right.

The experts had me on 56CM OCLV late 90s. I moved up to a 58 fast due to a lot of what I am reading here.

A friend had a 60 CADD3 road bike and let me roll it for a few miles on a club ride. I felt like I could breath, although it was a bit tall I could just be flat footed standing over it.

Early 2000 I did the whole measure up thing with Carl Strong. He was saying 588mm TT eff. I was skeptical, but went with his expertise. The 2016 Madone I have now is 582mm TT eff. 585 IS my sweet spot. I have a 603 long/low Domane Team Classic I just use very short reach bars and a 11CM stem.

The 56 5200 OCLV had a 56CM TT, the 58 I felt a bit better on a 57TT.

The 57 TT bike I used to always get crap for the tip of the saddle pointing up in pics and person. But it was the only way I could ride the too short road bikes.

I rode Carls creation for 10 years with 588mm eff TT for 10 years with a 13CM stem and 118mm reach bars. [Then a multi fracture leg/knee had me off the bike for a few seasons]. Still have the Strong, still ride [less stack/reach that 20 yr ago].

Three previous fits leading up to my final happiness missed what Carl caught. Long Femurs and ape arms.

For 20 years now I ride very close to what Carl set me up on. Just shortened the stack and reach maybe -2CM from 20 years back. I am 63 now.

[robt57]

Why are you quoting me? I am responding to the OP.Because what you said sure seems right. Which you may have notice was the first this I said in the context of your public offering.

After that bear in mind this is a public forum and none of us 'own' our publishings. So PM folks if you don't want public furthering of publishing I guess??

Diagnosing fit issues on the internet, frankly, is ridiculous.
Getting general sizing and measuring questinos answered is fine, but diagnosing biomechnical issues and fine tuning - which can be massive- can only be done in person.

Anecdotal fit discussion, while interesting and enlightening, does nothing to help the OP.

I'll just keep attempting to kelp folks that ask with anecdotal similar life experiences, maybe try not to include doing so attached to quotes in the future.

I will decide for myself what I publish which I deem does help or does nothing to help. Assume folk will ignore what does not reach...

Gimme a break, respectfully requested.

[ergott]

My gut says you have too much weight on your arms and they tire. I would venture to guess that your saddle is too far forward.

I keep coming back to this.

http://kirkframeworks.com/2009/06/19/riding-tip-3/

[pasadena]

I'm not asking to be sarcastic, it genuinely confused me.
I thought you were the OP at first.

Though confusing because of my wording, I meant diagnosing, and anecdotal fit advise on the internet is not helpful in these situations.
I wasn't saying that you were giving anecdotal, diagnosing advice.
That was my fault, as i just type quickly and should clearly segment my responses.

Because what you said sure seems right. Which you may have notice was the first this I said in the context of your public offering.

After that bear in mind this is a public forum and none of us 'own' our publishings. So PM folks if you don't want public furthering of publishing I guess??



I'll just keep attempting to kelp folks that ask with anecdotal similar life experiences, maybe try not to include doing so attached to quotes in the future.

I will decide for myself what I publish which I deem does help or does nothing to help. Assume folk will ignore what does not reach...

Gimme a break, respectfully requested.

[robt57]

I wasn't saying that you were giving anecdotal, diagnosing advice.
That was my fault, as i just type quickly and should clearly segment my responses.

I was though. ;)

I hope there was more helpful data points than not for the OP. My first 10k may have went a lot more smoothly if I had someone like Carl with my data sooner.

[pasadena]

LOL
alright, my man :beer:

[giordana93]

already mentioned and worth checking:
1. saddle tilt--it should be level so you're not falling forward

2. saddle set back--if it's too far forward you will also bear too much weight on hands; fitters who only use kops (knee over pedal spindle) will often have you too far forward. Read the Dave Kirk reference above (or Steve Hogg and others)

3. less common, but worth noting: handlebar width. bars that are too wide are just as bad as too narrow; instead of "stacking" your weight like yoga practitioners, you create triangles that tax your neck muscles

[fmradio516]

I didnt know about the too little saddle setback causing hand pain. That might be my issue with my SMP saddle, not the saddle itself. Will have to put it back on a setback saddle.

[Smitty2k1]

Glad to see more replies coming in. Here's a photo of my bike setup. It's a 50cm Black Mountain Road+ (their size medium with a 560mm ETT) with an 70mm stem and plenty of stack height. I'm 5' 9" with a PBH of 34". Saddle is currently on a setback post with rails about in the middle of adjustment.

My bike fit was on a different bike (Jamie Aurora Elite) and the fitter recommended a short and tall (25deg) stem to help get weight off my hands and wrists. I suspect a lot of my fit issues come down to strength and flexibility, though I'm not out of shape and already have over 2k miles in the saddle this year. My last fitter didn't do any sort of strength or flexibility assessments.

Unfortunately fitters here in the DC area are still closed due to COVID-19.

[parris]

I could be WAY off here but the frame set just looks too small given how its setup with the amount of seat post and stem spacers. It's tough to really tell due to the angle of the bike in the photo though. How were you fitted?

[mtechnica]

Using a short and tall stem isn’t necessarily the best way to get weight off your hands. Move your saddle back. Rotate your pelvis forward and relax your shoulders. You should be able to take your hands off the bars when you’re in the drops and not topple forward right away if you’re pedaling somewhat hard. Also if your bike has 70mm stem something is wrong imho.

[smontanaro]

Unlock your elbows.

Veering off-topic...

I see so many people ride this way that I assumed that's how bike geometry and bike fit worked these days. Here's an image of what I think of as "classic cycling form" (nicked from here (http://socalcyclingteam.com/2014/06/26/race-report-orange-county-cycling-classic-by-ronnie-toth-socalcycling-com-team/)):

http://socalcyclingteam.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/OCCC_Report-2027.jpg

Here's an image of Chris Froome (from here (https://www.express.co.uk/sport/othersport/823376/Tour-de-France-2017-Chris-Froome-Team-Sky-Nairo-Quintana-Eddy-Merckx-Jacques-Anquetil)):

https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/4/590x/Chris-Froome-823376.jpg

Now I realize his form works for him and his elbows are probably not totally locked, but it looks like it, so maybe people emulate that?

[Smitty2k1]

I could be WAY off here but the frame set just looks too small given how its setup with the amount of seat post and stem spacers. It's tough to really tell due to the angle of the bike in the photo though. How were you fitted?

50cm seat tube vs 56cm tt will give a lot of seat post. This was not the bike I was fitted on.

[ColonelJLloyd]

My gut says you have too much weight on your arms and they tire. I would venture to guess that your saddle is too far forward.

I keep coming back to this.

http://kirkframeworks.com/2009/06/19/riding-tip-3/

This has helped me immensely. You've gotta be in the right position over the cranks. And core strength for sure. My shoulders are pretty sore after 50 miles because I lack better core strength.

Lookup the bird dog pose/exercise and other core exercises. Actually strengthening your shoulders (shoulder shrugs with weights) won't hurt either.

[parris]

Smitty could you share a photo of the bike you were fitted on please.

Here's what I see with the bike in the photo you posted. Saddle may be slightly nose down, saddle looks like it may be forward some, 10cm+ saddle to bar drop, a lot of spacers under the hbar stem, a very short hbar stem.

The saddle pointing down by its self will tend to cause more weight on the hands. Combine that with the drop and saddle fore aft position, thats a setup for muscle fatigue and soreness.

Overall the frame in the photo just doesn't look like its the right proportions for you due to the setup.

How close is this setup to the fitting you paid for?

[giordana93]

short and tall stem is often suggested--and often (but not always) wrong. It encourages a "spin bike" position: upright, using quads more than glutes, too far forward, doesn't engage core or encourage pelvic tilt. For me, you can't say "classic cycling form" without mentioning this guy.

https://fastrunrobbie.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/lemond_vmed_11a_widec.jpg

[Smitty2k1]

Smitty could you share a photo of the bike you were fitted on please.

Here's what I see with the bike in the photo you posted. Saddle may be slightly nose down, saddle looks like it may be forward some, 10cm+ saddle to bar drop, a lot of spacers under the hbar stem, a very short hbar stem.

The saddle pointing down by its self will tend to cause more weight on the hands. Combine that with the drop and saddle fore aft position, thats a setup for muscle fatigue and soreness.

Overall the frame in the photo just doesn't look like its the right proportions for you due to the setup.

How close is this setup to the fitting you paid for?

I may have glossed over this, but the other bike I was fit on last year was 1) flat pedals, 2) more aggressive stack/reach, and 3) I didn't actually feel better after the fit.

The saddle tilt in the photo I posted is actually about 6° up as measured by a phone app. The Black Mountain Road+ does have an extremely relaxed stack/reach so it is surprising to me that I've got so many spacers and such a short stem.

Regardless, i was looking for more short term posture cues to look for while riding as the bike fitters are booked or not taking appointments due to COVID. Hopefully by end of July or early August I'll go in for another one (from a different fitter).

[ergott]

Here's something I've done at home (with a trainer). Warm up first and ride for a while first. Don't do this cold. Get the heart rate going.

1) Set the resistance so you are at or near threshold (you know, cruising along and wouldn't do that for more than an hour steady)
2) Cadence should be medium for you (70-90 let's say)

Starting from sitting straight up with my hands either at my side or behind me I rotate forward from my hips (keep back straight). Keep bending forward until you are on the edge of slipping forward and your pedaling power isn't holding you up.

Now, where is this position with respect to how you ride? Can you simply put your arms out on the bars in a relaxed manor? If so then your lower half is holding your body in place. If you slide forward prematurely move the saddle back. If you never get to the point that you are teetering on slipping forward at all you are too far back (very rarely that is the case).

Once you have a nice lower half riding position you can address if the bars are in a place that meets your hands the way you want them to.

It's a variation of Kirk's suggestion that works for me and is easier to evaluate without needing to find the right conditions outside. It also allows you to isolate what's going on between the saddle and pedals a little better. You can proceed to Kirk's method and verify that too.

[bking]

I often find myself hunching my shoulders and tension building when climbing. Invariably, my elbows have been flaring out, and coming up. Drop your elbows with arms bent and the shoulders relax.
I remember a fitting I did at Vanilla years ago, "bend your elbows", he kept hollering.
Riding with elbows in and bent naturally strengthens the core as well.
You'll figure this out, lot of good advice above.

[smokersteve]

OP - Post a video of you riding on a trainer. Get warmed up 10 minutes or so and record a 30 second video from the side, back, and front
Everyone is just guessing without actually seeing you on the bike

[fmradio516]

We should sticky a thread like this with a bunch of this good advice. Or at least a riders digest version. 100% the only thing that holds me back on taking my road bike out more often is my crappy fit. Either my hands go number, my neck hurts, etc...

Now im trying to figure out if its bad that my pedal spindle at 3 oclock is way past my knee line.