Thoughts on what's going on? Cramping

[makoti]

Not your normal, run of the mill, dehydrated cramping. Geographical cramping.
I ride on a scenic stretch of road, mountainous for where I live. Route is abut 45-60 miles, depending on where I turn around. On the way back, at the bottom of the last climb, I cramp. EVERY time. Same spot, same upper thigh cramp. Like someone is sticking a knife into my thigh. Doesn't matter how far I've ridden, temps, humidity, I cramp. I stop about a mile before the climb, at the start of the downhill leading into it, to eat, stretch, drink some pickle juice, I still cramp. This has been going on for a few seasons now. And I don't get these cramps on any other rides, regardless of any of those factors.
How do I get through this? I hate to say it's all in my head, but...
I'm toying with the idea of driving out there, and doing repeats on the climb
and ONLY the climb until I get past it. Suggestions? Anyone ever had anything like this happen?

[weisan]

"You must conquer your fear..."

[rnhood]

Don’t back off or rest just before the climb. Keep a steady tempo as you go through the dip and start the climb.

[cmg]

"I'm toying with the idea of driving out there, and doing repeats on the climb
and ONLY the climb until I get past it. Suggestions? Anyone ever had anything like this happen?"

Club had a 40 mile route that on the last 3 miles went over these steep (for me) rollers, 4 of them in a row. I would get progressively slower until either the cramp or the bonk would happen. I had to change the way i made the climb before that went away. i would recommend starting 3-5 miles away from this climb so you could be warmed up. Then trying going up in different gears/speeds or timing your pedaling.

[redir]

I read an article last year or so about cramping. Basically they have no idea why people cramp and they went through all kinds of test. The final conclusion in the article was that cramping is mental. Something happens in the body that sends a signal to the brain and it just decides to torture the body for unknown reasons. I have no idea if it was peer reviews but it was interesting study.

[carpediemracing]

Do you always stop before the climb, or is that part of trying to defeat the cramp?

I'd do repeats of the 5-10 miles *before* the climb. The climb isn't the problem, it's whatever is happening before the climb.

If you're stopping before the climb *every time*, then that's probably the problem. Stop much earlier, don't stop, or stop later.

Part of it might be that it's very easy just after the stop, downhill as you described it. If you descend the same each time (weight on one leg, coasting, certain amount of weight on legs, etc etc etc) that's probably the trigger after the stop. Try varying your descent approach, like if you're coasting then pedal, if you're spinning then pedal slow (even if it's just "air pedaling") or coast, do something you're not doing now.

The cramp seems very linked to your actions just before the cramp, since they seem to be repeated every time. So change one thing at a time to see what improves it (assuming you still stop). I'd start with getting whatever you got to eat/drink the time before but then approaching the descent differently.

(Based on my own personal experience if I coast with my legs in a fixed position for any amount of time, especially if I'm supporting my body weight, then the chances of cramping go up. I try to soft pedal pretty much any time I'm not pedaling, the only exceptions being when I'm stretching, going into a tuck on a descent, or doing a track stand at a light. The latter is the toughest on my legs, it's as close as I get to cramping even if I'm otherwise fine. This leads me to guess that you're supporting your weight on your leg on the descent which means coasting with butt off the saddle.)

[makoti]

Don’t back off or rest just before the climb. Keep a steady tempo as you go through the dip and start the climb.

Do you always stop before the climb, or is that part of trying to defeat the cramp?

I'd do repeats of the 5-10 miles *before* the climb. The climb isn't the problem, it's whatever is happening before the climb.

If you're stopping before the climb *every time*, then that's probably the problem. Stop much earlier, don't stop, or stop later.

Part of it might be that it's very easy just after the stop, downhill as you described it. If you descend the same each time (weight on one leg, coasting, certain amount of weight on legs, etc etc etc) that's probably the trigger after the stop. Try varying your descent approach, like if you're coasting then pedal, if you're spinning then pedal slow (even if it's just "air pedaling") or coast, do something you're not doing now.

The cramp seems very linked to your actions just before the cramp, since they seem to be repeated every time. So change one thing at a time to see what improves it (assuming you still stop). I'd start with getting whatever you got to eat/drink the time before but then approaching the descent differently.

(Based on my own personal experience if I coast with my legs in a fixed position for any amount of time, especially if I'm supporting my body weight, then the chances of cramping go up. I try to soft pedal pretty much any time I'm not pedaling, the only exceptions being when I'm stretching, going into a tuck on a descent, or doing a track stand at a light. The latter is the toughest on my legs, it's as close as I get to cramping even if I'm otherwise fine. This leads me to guess that you're supporting your weight on your leg on the descent which means coasting with butt off the saddle.)


No, I don't always do the same thing. I've tried several different things. Stop, stretch, don't stop, eat before, eat way before, pickle juice before, nothing seems to make a difference.
The run up to the climb IS very easy, as in all down hill. I usually coast, pedal some, but it's a long enough, fast enough DH that constant pressure on the pedals isn't really possible. I am usually fairly tucked for the decent. I will try a few things & see if I am unconsciously creating a problem simply in the way I approach the climb. It's gotta be something.

I read an article last year or so about cramping. Basically they have no idea why people cramp and they went through all kinds of test. The final conclusion in the article was that cramping is mental. Something happens in the body that sends a signal to the brain and it just decides to torture the body for unknown reasons. I have no idea if it was peer reviews but it was interesting study.

I am thinking it might be something like this, but I know you should be able to break the cycle. I'd be more inclined to think it is physical issues, either nutrition or technique if it happened on any other climb as well, or on other rides. Just this spot on this ride. It's very rare I cramp otherwise.

[Tony]

Need more salt.
During a hard ride coming up on the 40-45 mile mark I start to feel that familiar burst, pulsating shock that starts out in waves.
Consuming more salt is the only thing that has helped me, pickle juice, various supplements.....nothing really made a difference outside of more salt.

[unterhausen]

I don't want to eat salt because of blood pressure, and potassium because of BP meds that already promote potassium blood levels. What I do is take an enduralyte capsule and put it under my tongue until I think it's going to melt. Probably lasts 15 minutes or so. I have found that stops cramping better than swallowing the enduralyte. Which just proves that cramping is at least 90 percent half mental.

Obviously YMMV

[Spaghetti Legs]

I’d think about your tuck position on that descent. When I’m tucked in tight for a long time, I can feel it in my hip flexors. Maybe something to do with essentially holding a prolonged tonic position in a fatigued muscle and then recruiting it into sudden kinetic action. Maybe experiment with more upright position and soft pedaling on that descent.

[zap]

What grade and length. Have you ever started the climb out of the saddle.

[makoti]

What grade and length. Have you ever started the climb out of the saddle.

2 miles, maybe 6-8%? When this hits, I'm JUST starting the climb so I don't think so.

[oldguy00]

OK....
We've been through this sort of question A LOT over on slowtwitch, and it has been researched to death.

SO...barring any actual medical condition which likely there is none:

1. You are going too hard before the climb.

2. See #1.

Thats it. Your legs are cramping because they are telling you enough. Even if you felt like you took it easy before the climb (and when I say 'before the climb', I mean the entire ride leading up to it, not just the couple km's before it), you didn't take it easy -enough- and thus your legs are cramping at that point.
You don't need pickle juice (I've tried that too).
You don't need salt tabs (I've tried that too).

On your next ride, prove me wrong. Ride easier. If you just have a basic GPS/cyclocomputer, average 2 mph slower or so. If you have a power meter, average 15% lower power output for the entire ride leading up to the climb.

The answer to getting back to usual speed without cramping is likely to add ride volume. Get your legs used to riding longer, and then slowly increase the output level.

Anyway, yeah, please try the ride again at a noticeably easier pace, and see your legs don't cramp at the hill.

[robt57]

Try some Calmag tablets. Bet that will help. I keep with on long hard rides in case. When lots of water dilutes down your minerals, salt or calcium will remedy. I chew a few when I can't even pedal the times I screw up my electrolytes, not frequent occurrence, but have with.

I also in heat add some baking soda to my mix, it may be hard on the gag factor if you use too much. But slows the onset of lactic acid threshold at the risk of puking if you use too much.

Band Aide until you figure out what is what at least.


Plus, other questions might be related to quads being the place you are cramping. Saddle to too low? Cleats too far back on shoe. Cleat/foot hot spots making you pull your stokes, etc etc

[zap]

2 miles, maybe 6-8%? When this hits, I'm JUST starting the climb so I don't think so.

Take it easy on the ride to the climb, eat a 'nana along with a few sips of water while sitting up on the way down to the climb.....if the road is smooth, etc. Really, just try sitting up some as spaghetti legs posted.

Then as the road levels off and starts to go up hill, get in the drops and just crush it out of the saddle in a 53/14 or whatever for the first quarter mile or so then settle into an easier gear tapping it out at a higher cadence. Really get into a total effu attitude at the start of the climb.

You might want to work the bad out of your upper thigh by using a medium size foam ball.

[Hindmost]

No answers is just questions:

Do you mean that this happens on one side only? Any sensations of "almost"cramping in other muscles: twitches, tremors?

How would you characterize this route and riding intensity? Is it your most difficult or longest? Do you ride to thoroughly deplete yourself by the end of the ride? Do you ride other days with similar duration and intensity?

[charliedid]

Oh hell I'm sorry for your pain but have no advice to offer other than what one poster said about not stopping. I thought this was a thread about Camping! I wan't/need a few nights in the woods :)

[makoti]

No answers is just questions:

Do you mean that this happens on one side only? Any sensations of "almost"cramping in other muscles: twitches, tremors?

How would you characterize this route and riding intensity? Is it your most difficult or longest? Do you ride to thoroughly deplete yourself by the end of the ride? Do you ride other days with similar duration and intensity?

It will happen in both thighs. The pain is bad enough that it feels like everything is seizing.

The route is hilly. Yesterday was harder than usual, but shorter than I normally do up there. I felt great for the ride & after. Def not wiped out. I don't have easy access to roads this hilly, so I normally don't do as much extended climbing as I did yesterday.

It is usually a 62 mile out & back. Usually 6200ft. I try to do it 3 times a year (it's an hour + away). Yesterday was the first time due to CV closures. 44 miles, 5K climbing. Cramp was at 4700ft in, about 39 miles. Usually, I am still "fresh" at that point. But no. That location on the route, the bottom of that last hill, gets me every stinking time.

I'm going to try some of these suggestions. The supplements I can play with prior to going out, the riding techniques I'll have to wait until I'm in that situation again to see if they make a difference.

[zap]

Skyline drive by any chance.

[pooneej]

Probably not what's going on with you but just putting it out there just in case.

I got wicked calf cramps a few times during some of my runs during last fall/winter. Thought it was same as a lot of people here are thinking: dehydration/overuse/potassium or other mineral deficiency.
Sidelined me for a week+ at a time because that cramp really did some tearing at the calf (I tried running through it then would have to walk back a few miles).

Anyway - months later 2 herniated discs (early spring this year). One 'sequestered'. The calf cramps were all triggered by that pinched nerve. Also had groin strains last summer all precursors to those herniated discs.

Again prob not you but something to get checked out maybe.

[Hindmost]

So, this ride is among the longest you do and with the most amount of sustained climbing. Cramping, though frustrating, may not be totally unexpected. I imagine one could do more climbing in preparation for the long ride but you say there's not similar long, sustained climbs nearby.

[makoti]

Skyline drive by any chance.

Yep. Back into Front Royal. Last climb before Dickey Ridge.

[makoti]

So, this ride is among the longest you do and with the most amount of sustained climbing. Cramping, though frustrating, may not be totally unexpected. I imagine one could do more climbing in preparation for the long ride but you say there's not similar long, sustained climbs nearby.

It's more the oddity that it happens every time I do this ride at almost the same spot. Again, don't matter if I've gone longer or not, hotter or not. I can do the entire ride up to that point without issue & then, time & time again, cramp.

[carpediemracing]

If trying different supplements try them long before the climb, like on shorter rides close to home, or if you must try it on the long ride, then start taking them early in the ride.

I've learned the hard way, probably cost me a few hundred $ in wasted entry fees, that I can no longer drink electrolyte drinks without cramping pretty severely relatively quickly. You don't want to learn that kind of thing the hard way 20 miles out from the car.

[2LeftCleats]

Since it happens after a long descent, I wonder if the muscles are getting too cool, which can provoke cramps.

[ridethecliche]

I don't want to eat salt because of blood pressure, and potassium because of BP meds that already promote potassium blood levels. What I do is take an enduralyte capsule and put it under my tongue until I think it's going to melt. Probably lasts 15 minutes or so. I have found that stops cramping better than swallowing the enduralyte. Which just proves that cramping is at least 90 percent half mental.

Obviously YMMV


How's your mag?

If trying different supplements try them long before the climb, like on shorter rides close to home, or if you must try it on the long ride, then start taking them early in the ride.

I've learned the hard way, probably cost me a few hundred $ in wasted entry fees, that I can no longer drink electrolyte drinks without cramping pretty severely relatively quickly. You don't want to learn that kind of thing the hard way 20 miles out from the car.


I remember trying a drink that had some sort of lactic buffering thing touted as a pro for it.

I did it once and got so sick during my ride I had to toss it. That hurt as a college student back in the day, but I tried it twice and thought I was gonna pull a boonen with how much gas it gave me!

[Toeclips]

I went to GNC and purchased a spray bottle of Life-Flo Magnesium oil sport spray
Worked for me on muscle spasms
Hope this helps

[carpediemracing]

I remember trying a drink that had some sort of lactic buffering thing touted as a pro for it.

I did it once and got so sick during my ride I had to toss it. That hurt as a college student back in the day, but I tried it twice and thought I was gonna pull a boonen with how much gas it gave me!

I think it was Cytomax?

[Wakatel_Luum]

Unless there is a deficiency of some sort my understanding is cramp is brought on when a muscle is working above and beyond what it is trained for.

Try drinking the brine from pickled cucumbers or get some "pickle juice" as it's apparently better than Gatorade etc...

[oldguy00]

Unless there is a deficiency of some sort my understanding is cramp is brought on when a muscle is working above and beyond what it is trained for.

Try drinking the brine from pickled cucumbers or get some "pickle juice" as it's apparently better than Gatorade etc...

THIS, as I stated in my previous post.

Its happening at the same point in the ride every time because on that particular course, that is the point where your muscles are saying "I'm done even if you aren't!"...

Your body isn't suddenly running out of magnesium or salt etc. You are simply pushing your muscles beyond what they can handle on that route. Its the answer no one wants to hear because they'd rather have a magic pill to take.

Respectfully - once you are done spending your money on junk supplements from GNC (we've all done it, me included), just try riding easier on that route.

[oldguy00]

How's your mag?




I remember trying a drink that had some sort of lactic buffering thing touted as a pro for it.

I did it once and got so sick during my ride I had to toss it. That hurt as a college student back in the day, but I tried it twice and thought I was gonna pull a boonen with how much gas it gave me!

I took part in a study at a university here in Atlantic Canada years ago, during Cytomax's popularity, to see if there was any effect on blood levels of lactic acid when ingesting a buffer type of drink.
They had about 20 people, and each of us did two VO2 max tests (real tests, scuba gear and all, on the bikes) a week apart. Had to drink a slurry drink before each test, one being the real drink, one a placebo.
During each test they took blood samples every 30 seconds or so to measure levels.

In the end, there was absolutely no improvement from using the buffer drink.

[zap]

Yep. Back into Front Royal. Last climb before Dickey Ridge.

I used to ride out there in the late 80's early 90's on a regular basis. The start is a fairly steady climb for some distance and I always suck at the start of any ride. If I go out to hard for the first 10 miles the rest of the ride is suboptimal suck. So maybe ease(ier) into the first climb out of Front Royal. If I'm not mistaken, there is a steeper section on the way to Panorama and one on the way back to Front Royal with all other climbs being fairly moderate.

Everyone reacts differently but for me, drinking two big loaded bottles and a bar in each direction (to Panorama) keeps my system working in good order and allows me to sweat the slow out. So bring your drink mix with you and reload water bottles in Panorama and get going.

Also get out of the saddle regularly on climbs. Open up the hips.

[muz]

I agree that cramping indicates you are working harder than your fitness levele, and you can either ease up or get fitter.

There is a hard double century (Terrible Two) that I have done many times, and I have often cramped at the same spot, called Rancheria Wall. It happens after 140 miles, following a long and hot descent, then a 1.2 mile climb at 12% average grade. I often cramped right at the top, when I eased the pressure off the pedals and started coasting. I started walking maybe half of that climb, and this stopped the cramping, and helped improve my finish times.

[unterhausen]

I agree that cramping indicates you are working harder than your fitness levele, and you can either ease up or get fitter.
Another factor is that heat lowers your effective fitness level. That's why cramps are more likely when it first gets hot.

[nephron]

You mentioned blood pressure
Are you taking any antihypertensives ?