State of the Art....

[sspielman]

I think that it may be interesting to survey the collective wisdom of the Forum......Who-in your opinion-represents the the state of the art in frame construction in each of the major materials? To further make the exercise interesting, try to narrow your nominations to ONE builder for each material....
I'll start:
Carbon: Time
Aluminum: Cyfac
Steel: Sachs

Discuss......

[OldDog]

Serotta
Peg
ATMO

[Too Tall]

These are bikes I'd ride hard not for sunday dreamin'. I'd have diff. answers otherwise.

Carbon: Serotta
Aluminum: Peg-O-myDreams
Steel: Spectrum

[AgilisMerlin]

c: de
a: ro
s: sa
:D


a
m
e
r
l
i
N

http://www.dreambike.com/images/derosa/06tangoyellow.jpg
http://www.dreambike.com/images/derosa/06dualocre.jpg
http://www.dreambike.com/images/derosa/06neofaema.jpg

[ergott]

I'm too wishy-washy to give one name for anything. Too much quality stuff going on. I can say Ben and co for ti as I have one of their fine creations and no other ti bike does it for me that I know of. I can think of plenty of carbon and steel bikes that are on my lust list. I think Cannondale is my top pick for all aluminium construction. I can't think of a finer al race bike. They aren't too expensive and the geo works for me. They are light enough, but plenty stiff.

[stevep]

agilis. i grant you the primato.
the others are too little too late.
the carbon one looks like it was designed by gaudi after he smoked a huge joint.
.." whoa, check this out! carbon..."*

*actual quote from ugo derosa. but in italian.

[CNY rider]

I think the Legend represents the ultimate evolution of the Ti bicycle. I just don't see how it's going to get any better.

Carbon, I think is going to continue to evolve. It's a work in process.

[JohnS]

agilis. i grant you the primato.
the others are too little too late.
the carbon one looks like it was designed by gaudi after he smoked a huge joint.
.." whoa, check this out! carbon..."*

*actual quote from ugo derosa. but in italian.+1

[davids]

I can try to narrow my list to one each, but I won't succeed. Naming "one" in most categories would be a loaded selection - There's more than one cutting-edge builder in several of the material categories, and it would be a distortion to say that one was 'better' than the others.

So, given that explanation, here's my list:

Carbon: Serotta, Calfee, Parlee, and Colnago

Aluminum: Pegoretti

Steel: Sachs, Kirk, Spectrum, and Pegoretti

Titanium: Serotta and Spectrum

Mixed materials: Serotta and Cannondale

...and this whole materials thing is so one-dimensional, anyways. It's just a single piece of the equation, after all.

[Archibald]

I think that it may be interesting to survey the collective wisdom of the Forum......Who-in your opinion-represents the the state of the art in frame construction in each of the major materials? To further make the exercise interesting, try to narrow your nominations to ONE builder for each material....
I'll start:
Carbon: Time
Aluminum: Cyfac
Steel: Sachs

Discuss......
This is going to turn into a popularity contest.

First, define state of the art.

Do you mean highest level of development? Or, are you inferring a high level of refinement? Not the same thing and they won't draw the same answer. For instance, Sachs and Weigle and Gordon and a small handful of others have brought lugged steel bikes to a high level of refinement, and perhaps they're constructing the "state of the art" in lugged steel bicycles, but they are not "state of the art" in steel. I would say for steel road bikes, Dario's use of the material is somewhat representative of "the state of the art" for the road community. State of the Art in steel is currently personified by Reynolds 953 and Columbus XCR and TrueTemper S3 tubes. Highly refined? Not necessarily, but they do represent the highest level of steel development as it applies to bicycles.

It's the same with the other materials. Scott and BMC are really pushing the envelope with CF technology applied to bicycles, while builders like Parlee, Crumpton, Calfee, and some others are highly refined.

For state of the art in aluminum, you have to look to the MTB world. Specialized, Santa Cruz, Foes, and others are stretching the limits of how aluminum can be used to build a frame. Frankly, I see next to nothing in the aluminum road market that's not just a plug & play frame, while in the MTB world, there are some real wowsers.

I think Serotta comes into play in Ti though I think they fall into the highly refined category. Litespeed does/did more developmental work in how Ti can be used as a material in bike frames and pushed Ti "state of the art" to what it is now. Moots, Seven, Eriksen, Potts, those guys are all in the "highly refined" category.

If I was building frames, I'd rather be in the highly refined category but if I was still banging Madonna with famous regularity, I'd have to try for state of the art.

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[Too Tall]

(giggle)
"If I was building frames, I'd rather be in the highly refined category but if I was still banging Madonna with famous regularity, I'd have to try for state of the art."

Highly refined vs State of the Art is a good take but the OP did say State of the Art which in my world is all things rolled into one.

[dbrk]

If I were thinking about buying a bike (and I'm always thinking about that) and I didn't already have at least one of these, then these are the four builders I would consider "state of the art":

Alex Singer (Ernest Csuka)
Mariposa (Mike Barry)
Nagasawa
Toei

Why? These bikes are currently in the hands of the most experienced and gifted craftsman alive and none of them may wish to continue forever. But you gotta like what you like.

dbrk

[dauwhe]

Steel: J. Peter Weigle

I don't think much about the others, but if I had an aluminum bike I would hope it would be made by Co-Motion.

Dave

[zap]

Road bikes

carbon: Look & Parlee
al: Klein hasn't done much in years so Cannondale
steel: State of the art as in artistic. Lots to choose
ti: Serotta

[swoop]

i don't undertand the the phrase 'state of the art'. it assumes there is both an art and a state at work.

wonky tube shapes somehow equate art and welding, gluing, and brazing too?
the art is in the process of interpreting materials and design into an relationship with the rider in the most functional way... which by its very nature becomes an aesthetic beautiful thing. an art.

or art can me manufacturing a few sizes of bike that fit all sizes of dude. manufacturing huge quantities of a 2lb frame is pretty artful.

it takes a lot of art to create a brand too.

if you're asking what makers are advancing the design concepts... the double triangle seems to have a pretty solid footing. so i'd say any guy out there working the triangle is on the forward edge.

the best bike in the world is the one you're on.

take that parlee you're enamored of and hold it up against a look 595 ultra. look at the manufacturing processes involved, the workmanship and the way they are both attempting to deal with what a bike frame is supposed to do. is one more artful than the other... or are the just both saying the same thing with dfferent words?

there is no answer. yay double triangle!

as for saying something like cannondale is state of the art.. i guess the art of the bike has nothing to do with frame alignment. because the most disitnct thing about them is that the front and and back end feel like two different bikes going two slightly different directions. what wer'e really talking about here is how much y'all have bought into what's been marketed to you.

bike design has been pretty stable through time. the skills required to make a bike have too. marketing has gotten pretty advanced. materials are better too. and the art is that we have so much choice.

the phrase 'state of the art' has no meaning or value except that it indicates someone is trying to sell you something on the premise that what you already have is no longer good enough.

[Kevan]

Carbon: Calfee Why? He was a founding father. He continues to strive and push the material. He works out of the box (e.g. melding CF stem and handlebar into one single piece). He repairs other builder’s frames.

Aluminum: Cannondale Why? Again a founding father who has stuck through thick and thin. Their work has been a spring board for other firms such as Klein.

Steel: Too many to suggest. The names commonly dropped here are all artisans.

[saab2000]

Aluminum: Cannondale Why? Again a founding father who has stuck through thick and thin. Their work has been a spring board for other firms such as Klein.


AFAIK, Klein predated Cannondale with the fat tubed aluminum frames. I think he sued Cannondale for basically copying him.

[Len J]

since I've only been riding for 30 years and haven't ridden every bike currently available.

My answers would be purely ancedotal based on "groupspeak" and the frequency of repitition of reputation.

Not trying to be dense, but how can many of us answer this question except based on reputation?

Len

PS....bikes I'd like to try based on what I've heard from people I trust

Carbon....Time, Parlee
Aluminum....Pegoretti
Ti.......Spectrum (Mainly for the TK fit experience)
Steel......ATMO, Nag,

But if I'm honest, it's based on heresay.

[sg8357]

AFAIK, Klein predated Cannondale with the fat tubed aluminum frames. I think he sued Cannondale for basically copying him.

Barra (Fr), was building fat tubed AL bikes in the late 1930s, looks very like a Cannondale. Huge ovalized down tubes, smooth welds etc.

Scott G.

[sspielman]

But if I'm honest, it's based on heresay.


I think that this form of full disclosure is the sort of dangerous talk that could rip this forum apart.....

ONLY 30 years of cycling? Good stuff...

[amg]

Steel: Pegoretti

Aluminum: Pegoretti

Carbon: Parlee

Titanium: Serotta

My choices are based on what the builder is doing to develop the tubing/carbon as well as the level of skill employed in building the frames.

Antonio

[AgilisMerlin]

oops totally forgot the Titanio,

http://www.cyclingnews.com/sponsors/italia/2006/derosa.php


amerliN

[obtuse]

carbon: walser, trek, colnago, serotta

aluminum: eddy merckx, pegoretti.

magnesium: pinarello

steel: pegoretti, richard sachs

titanium: serotta


obtuse

[catulle]

.

[manet]

.

[Len J]

I think that this form of full disclosure is the sort of dangerous talk that could rip this forum apart.....

ONLY 30 years of cycling? Good stuff...

Thanks, I needed that.

I'll try to tone it down a bit.

Len

[fiamme red]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/tech/features/nahmbs064/vanilla_tricycle_front_3quarter.jpg

[Erik.Lazdins]

I think that it may be interesting to survey the collective wisdom of the Forum......Who-in your opinion-represents the the state of the art in frame construction in each of the major materials? To further make the exercise interesting, try to narrow your nominations to ONE builder for each material....
I'll start:
Carbon: Time
Aluminum: Cyfac
Steel: Sachs

Discuss......

I love this thread but it makes my head hurt. Archibald's "highly refined" comments struck a chord but still made my head hurt. I can't figure this out. I view state of the art as being primarily materials based. When a builder designs a bike/frame out of a material - the design choices of that builder are the intangible in my opinion.

Who was building a generation ago that most influenced today's highly regarded builders?
Who is building today that has influenced peers to change and those that will be taking up the work in the future?

[fiamme red]

Titanium: Pegoretti
Aluminum: Sachs
Carbon: Nagasawa
Steel: Parlee

[atmo]

Who was building a generation ago that most influenced today's highly regarded builders?

this cat's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_D'Aquisto) story heavily influenced me atmo. when i
originally saw this film (http://www.jklutherie.com/browseproducts/JAMES-D'ACQUISTO-New-Yorker-Special----(DVD).html) in the late 70s/early 80s, i
was smitten atmo. here's a cool book about him. (http://www.elderly.com/books/items/302-1.htm)

[72gmc]

State of the art as defined by what I'd like in my basement tomorrow morning at 10am would be a Davidson, a Tournesol/Parlee, a Serotta, and a Sachs. In the next week my definition of state of the art would expand to include a Kirk, a Vanilla, a Mariposa, an ANT, a Hampsten, a Wiegle, a Moyer.........

I don't have the self-control to answer this question.

[jhcakilmer]

Steel: Independent Fabrications
Al: Pinarello (Pegorettis are awsome, but I find him a kind of traditional)
Carbon: Parlee
Ti: Moots (Yes, they are quite traditional, but I just love them. I don't think I've ever seen welds that smooth or small. They seem to get smoother every year, and pretty soon they'll just blend in)

[davids]

carbon: walser, trek, colnago, serotta

obtuse
Trek carbon, huh? I was underwhelmed when I rode a Madone 5.2 back in '05. (I sure felt patriotic-ish, though):

http://beaconcycling.com/site/images/library/site/trek_madone52_300_05_p.jpg

But then, carbon frames, even a Parlee Z1, didn't float my boat. I'm curious to hear why Trek makes your list.

[swoop]

again.. all i see is the same triangles that were at work here. state of what art?


what seems state of the at to me is the democratization of the sub-20 lb bike and custom fit... as well as the freedom to choose and combine materials. the idea that any bike in the world is a email away and that the philosophy and history behind the bike is so accessible... is what is state of the art about the industry.

as a consumer i 'm able to ride the exact bike i want based on my own philosophy and made out of the materials i believe in. the singular entity that is cutting edge is the notion of 'range of choice'.

i can make a call and have ernesto personally design me a frame, or peg, ben, anyone. i can write a proposal and get a hook up to be on the bike of my choice .. unlike a pro (to hear zabriskie fantasize about being on regular pedals is to hear a guy in true pain from lack of choice).


state of the art is the fact that as consumer... we can select to ride anything we want. you want a ten pound bike? you want ti carbon, you want hand made custom tt in carbon, you want aluminum, you want amajor brand in custom.. you want it.. its there for the having.

i don't think there's much cutting edge in lug joinery and double triangles no matter what the materials are. and all for naught if the bike has zero personality, mutes feedback, doesn't fit, and is produced using assembly line methods from the 19th century.

[Archibald]

again.. all i see is the same triangles that were at work here. state of what art?


what seems state of the at to me is the democratization of the sub-20 lb bike and custom fit... as well as the freedom to choose and combine materials. the idea that any bike in the world is a email away and that the philosophy and history behind the bike is so accessible... is what is state of the art about the industry.

as a consumer i 'm able to ride the exact bike i want based on my own philosophy and made out of the materials i believe in. the singular entity that is cutting edge is the notion of 'range of choice'.

i can make a call and have ernesto personally design me a frame, or peg, ben, anyone. i can write a proposal and get a hook up to be on the bike of my choice .. unlike a pro (to hear zabriskie fantasize about being on regular pedals is to hear a guy in true pain from lack of choice).


state of the art is the fact that as consumer... we can select to ride anything we want. you want a ten pound bike? you want ti carbon, you want hand made custom tt in carbon, you want aluminum, you want amajor brand in custom.. you want it.. its there for the having.

i don't think there's much cutting edge in lug joinery and double triangles no matter what the materials are. and all for naught if the bike has zero personality, mutes feedback, doesn't fit, and is produced using assembly line methods from the 19th century.
Pardon me, but you seem (in my interpretation) to be coming at this question from a revisionist's position. "State of the Art" has a definite meaning in our society and while it includes the word "art" its meaning has always been about technology, engineering, or scientific advancement. I agree that the OP's intended meaning of "state of the art" needs to be defined by him, to keep this from becoming a popularity contest, but it does not take away from the fact that he asked about builder's use of specific materials in frame construction. It's not about fit, it's not about "owning" it or ordering it, or its availability. It's about the highest developed, most advanced use of a specific material to build bicycle frames.

Of course, the OP may well have meant it to be a beauty contest.

:banana:

[shinomaster]

You tell him Archi...my Cannondale goes really straight....except when I'm drunk.

[Ginger]

It's about the highest developed, most advanced use of a specific material to build bicycle frames.



I disagree. There is a difference between the most current in-use technology and that which is currently being developed which are the most advanced materials. You can't get the stuff in developement even in prototypes. So state of the art is the current highest developed most advanced in production, not the current highest developed most advanced.

[edit: What I meant to say is: What most people consider "state of the art" in materials is not.
And, I see state of the art in materials as different from state of the art in bikes themselves...]

There's some amazing stuff out there that due to cost or lack of interest companies just don't use. It's really futuristic (I refuse to use the B E term) stuff that won't see production for years.

[swoop]

but i think the phrase is inherently redundant. is bonding more state of the art than welding?
is a mitered tubeset more state of the art than a molded one?
is a 15lb bike more state of the art than a 16lb one?

i'm totally sincere.... and curious....
easton purchased the right to use the phrase 'nanotube'.... is nanotube more state of the art than properly treated aluminum? why?

i just get confused when marketing that's supposed to mean something but actually speaks to the consumers neuroses begins to really mean something.

so when i think of what is literaly state ofthe art.. its the interface between the consumer and the manufacturer with regards to choice that seems to be unique to this industry.

but when i look at the modern bike frame.... in terms of design... the double triangle is state of the art but it isn't new. that just sort of leaves room for materials. its the act of laying up carbon more state of the art than shaping a ti tube?
is it a matter of how laborious the manufacturing process?

to me... it's thought provoking.

[AgilisMerlin]

oops totally forgot the Titanio,

http://www.cyclingnews.com/sponsors/italia/2006/derosa.php


amerliN


http://www.derosanews.com/derosa/modules/DeRosa/images/colors/cyc-1163752240-74-04225.jpg

Here there are tubes in double thickness drawn 6/4 alloy, with round sections for the main triangle. the horizontal chain stays are instead conified and ovalised, again in 6/4 alloy. This is also used to realise the vertical chain stays, with round section and conified ends. The steering tube, forks, sleeve mechanism and small parts are all obtained using CNC working of 6/4 alloy elements, which are also used for the filler metal, in order to create homogeneity for the whole frame. Indeed, every gram and millimetre of the frame in 6.4 titanium!
Weight (no fork/no head set): 1.300 gr.

[shinomaster]

You tell him swoop. My caad 4 is the state of my art.

[stevep]

they are just bikes.
its the ride that matters.

[cadence90]

i just get confused when marketing that's supposed to mean something but actually speaks to the consumers neuroses begins to really mean something.
Threads like this one are generally always about consumer neuroses, etc. imho....

[manet]

Delaroche is particularly remembered for his much-quoted remark, on seeing the Daguerreotype, that "from today, painting is dead!"

[dancinkozmo]

http://www.derosanews.com/derosa/modules/DeRosa/images/colors/cyc-1163752240-74-04225.jpg

Here there are tubes in double thickness drawn 6/4 alloy, with round sections for the main triangle. the horizontal chain stays are instead conified and ovalised, again in 6/4 alloy. This is also used to realise the vertical chain stays, with round section and conified ends. The steering tube, forks, sleeve mechanism and small parts are all obtained using CNC working of 6/4 alloy elements, which are also used for the filler metal, in order to create homogeneity for the whole frame. Indeed, every gram and millimetre of the frame in 6.4 titanium!
Weight (no fork/no head set): 1.300 gr.


yeah but theres too many stickers on it !

[Archibald]

I disagree. There is a difference between the most current in-use technology and that which is currently being developed which are the most advanced materials. You can't get the stuff in developement even in prototypes. So state of the art is the current highest developed most advanced in production, not the current highest developed most advanced.

There's some amazing stuff out there that due to cost or lack of interest companies just don't use. It's really futuristic (I refuse to use the B E term) stuff that won't see production for years.Honestly, I don't see what there is to disagree with; can you be more specific? The topic is about state of the art as it applies to materials used in bicycle frame construction. To quote: "Who-in your opinion-represents the the state of the art in frame construction in each of the major materials?" We're not taking about the aerospace industry, or nylon/clay nanotube composites, or fossilized liquid assembly.

As I stated in my previous posts, there is a difference between "state of the art" and a refined process that was "state of the art" 50 or 100 years ago. One does not subtract from the other but that doesn't make them interchangable. As an example close to my heart, a Deckel Maho Duo Block may be "state of the art" in CNC machining, but CNC machining itself is not "state of the art" for the production of parts. Do you savvy the burrito?

[atmo]

it's hard to stay mad when there's so much beauty
in the world. sometimes i feel like i'm seeing it all at
once, and it's too much, my heart fills up like a balloon
that's about to burst.

and then i remember to relax, and stop trying to hold
on to it, and then it flows through me like rain and i
can't feel anything but gratitude for every single moment
of my stupid little life.

you have no idea what i'm talking about, i'm sure. but
don't worry - you will someday atmo.

[Archibald]

http://www.derosanews.com/derosa/modules/DeRosa/images/colors/cyc-1163752240-74-04225.jpg

Here there are tubes in double thickness drawn 6/4 alloy, with round sections for the main triangle. the horizontal chain stays are instead conified and ovalised, again in 6/4 alloy. This is also used to realise the vertical chain stays, with round section and conified ends. The steering tube, forks, sleeve mechanism and small parts are all obtained using CNC working of 6/4 alloy elements, which are also used for the filler metal, in order to create homogeneity for the whole frame. Indeed, every gram and millimetre of the frame in 6.4 titanium!
Weight (no fork/no head set): 1.300 gr.
Too funny. State of the art as produced by Litespeed.

[Archibald]

it's hard to stay mad when there's so much beauty
in the world. sometimes i feel like i'm seeing it all at
once, and it's too much, my heart fills up like a balloon
that's about to burst.

and then i remember to relax, and stop trying to hold
on to it, and then it flows through me like rain and i
can't feel anything but gratitude for every single moment
of my stupid little life.

you have no idea what i'm talking about, i'm sure. but
don't worry - you will someday atmo.
Beauty contest, eh?

[Serpico]

it's hard to stay mad when there's so much beauty.

...

love it, ricky fitz' poetry rocks my world

[cadence90]

Somebody said the same thing about books and cathedrals, once....

[Louis]

This has me once again wondering, exactly how many more whacks do we have to take at this poor old nag before she is declared dead and gone?

[atmo]

This has me once again wondering, exactly how many more whacks do we have to take at this poor old nag before she is declared dead and gone?
3mm atmo.

[stevep]

it's hard to stay mad when there's so much beauty
in the world. sometimes i feel like i'm seeing it all at
once, and it's too much, my heart fills up like a balloon
that's about to burst.

and then i remember to relax, and stop trying to hold
on to it, and then it flows through me like rain and i
can't feel anything but gratitude for every single moment
of my stupid little life.

you have no idea what i'm talking about, i'm sure. but
don't worry - you will someday atmo.

does this mean i get no comp frame this year either?
ha... then ill vote for a univega as the coolest steel frame...
next year? just let me know.

[DarrenCT]

carbon - scott, parlee

ti - serotta

steel - independent, sachs

alu - n.f.c. ;)

[catulle]

I think Atmo will sing on AI, atmo... Play the tubes...?

[1centaur]

IMO, a frame maker can work on one or more of the following five factors to claim state of the art status, and to the extent others follow what they believe to be a meaningful advancement and the factor becomes typical, they confirm that the first mover was operating at the state of the art.

The Five factors are:

Tube material, size, shape, joining method, and combinations of the preceding in a revolutionarily thoughtful way.

With those in mind, my nominees (to be confirmed by future builders) would be:

Carbon: Trek (materials R&D budget suggests this as a probability, but it's not certain), Cervelo (constantly pushing the production weight limit with pencil stays, etc.), Scott (mitered tubes without wrap being confirmed by consensus as we type). BMC had an influence with their around-the-ST joint but I don't see nano fibers as qualifying.

Steel: Pegoretti (use and involvement with new tubes)

Aluminum: Cannondale's as good a pick as any for their dedication to refining previous developments.

Ti: Nobody. Tube shaping is common, making noodle-light versions or race geometry versions don't count.

Mixed Materials: Nobody.

Calfee is resting on his laurels in CF, in my opinion (state of the art in bamboo though). Nick Crumpton is pushing envelopes in development, so the jury's out there until there's a production model. Serotta does not qualify unless they're doing more in shaping the tubes than I am guessing. The MQC purchase may change that at some point. Parlee is doing a lot of what others do and focusing on quality and his preferred CF blend - nowhere close to state of the art.

Building thoughtfully and with experience does not fit my definition of state of the art, which is why so many nominees in this thread don't qualify, no matter how much we like their work.

[Matt Barkley]

Steel - Dario Pegoretti and Scapin
Aluminum - Pegoretti and Casati (what about Principia?)
Carbon - Parlee possibly DeRosa (what about Isaac?)
Beer - Rogue, Gunness in the bottle, state of my art.
More Beer -

:beer: -matt

[jhcakilmer]

I forgot about them......man, I love their frames.....unique features, and great designs....IMO.

Casati Lazer Carbon is a great mixture......

[jhcakilmer]

Carbon/steel headtube, Carbon Seattube, and that swank seat clamp.....

[nicrump]

it's hard to stay mad when there's so much beauty
in the world. sometimes i feel like i'm seeing it all at
once, and it's too much, my heart fills up like a balloon
that's about to burst.

and then i remember to relax, and stop trying to hold
on to it, and then it flows through me like rain and i
can't feel anything but gratitude for every single moment
of my stupid little life.

you have no idea what i'm talking about, i'm sure. but
don't worry - you will someday atmo.

do you party?

[atmo]

do you party?
i give good post.

[nicrump]

sweet

[manet]

bold

[Grant McLean]

old is the new hi-tech.

state of the art is, like so last year.

g

[soulspinner]

it's hard to stay mad when there's so much beauty
in the world. sometimes i feel like i'm seeing it all at
once, and it's too much, my heart fills up like a balloon
that's about to burst.

and then i remember to relax, and stop trying to hold
on to it, and then it flows through me like rain and i
can't feel anything but gratitude for every single moment
of my stupid little life.

you have no idea what i'm talking about, i'm sure. but
don't worry - you will someday atmo.

I can remember to relax but have never gotten the part where I let go. Good for you, its not a stupid little life if guys like me want what you produce to such a degree we wait for 4 years for what you make because we get it enough to know that in our pampered little world if we could only have one bike it would be a Richard Sachs. This is also my answer to "state of the art thread)....

[atmo]

I can remember to relax but have never gotten the part where I let go. Good for you, its not a stupid little life if guys like me want what you produce to such a degree we wait for 4 years for what you make because we get it enough to know that in our pampered little world if we could only have one bike it would be a Richard Sachs. This is also my answer to "state of the art thread)....
.

[davyt]

What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet
--
Davy

[catulle]

Nice manicure. She sure don't braze tubes for a living. Or maybe she does, atmo...

[Frustration]

Aluminum: There isn't a state of the art... Maybe its the hydro DeRosa's.

Titanium: Seven, Serotta
Ti/Carbon: See above.
Steel Carbon: IF

Steel: what ever floats your "name game" boat... But nothing new is better than the Taylors, Ugo and some of the lords of the past. It's just new.

Carbon: Nic Crumpton performs. Bob Parlee Performs, Colnago brought it to the front (back in the Mapei 123 at roubaix days...) when people still doubted it... Scott took it to the next level for weight and performance in production... Kuota gave it shape before others. Specialized and Trek give HUGE performance value.

There are lots of others, but simply being expensive or custom doesn't mean you build a Parlee or Crumpton (or Seven or Serotta in Ti), simply being light doesn't make a Scott and simply having a name doesn't give you the history of Colnago... And like it or not, T and S have massive muscle.



Man I love bikes :banana:

[palincss]

Steel: J.P. Weigle

[chakatrain]

it's hard to stay mad when there's so much beauty
in the world. sometimes i feel like i'm seeing it all at
once, and it's too much, my heart fills up like a balloon
that's about to burst.

and then i remember to relax, and stop trying to hold
on to it, and then it flows through me like rain and i
can't feel anything but gratitude for every single moment
of my stupid little life.

you have no idea what i'm talking about, i'm sure. but
don't worry - you will someday atmo.

+1 in a big way. Atmo, I think you just made my day.

[atmo]

+1 in a big way. Atmo, I think you just made my day.
thank this guy atmo -

[dbrk]

SNIP...Steel: what ever floats your "name game" boat... But nothing new is better than the Taylors, Ugo and some of the lords of the past. It's just new...SNIP...
Man I love bikes :banana:

I will take exception to this. Not only have I seen dozens of the older steel bikes paint-less, I've also seen them sawn across their lugs and ripped apart to look very closely inside. Now, don't mistake me, many of these bikes are reasonably well made and we know they ride great...BUT in comparison to the work of the finest current American craftsfolk, well, it's not even remotely close in finish, details, and focus on quality. Honest. This isn't to pump my friends. It's a fact that is nearly impossible to see without paintless, drawn, quartered, sliced and diced frames. There are some too that are not what we might hope for. [Insert your favorite old timer or brand here] was great, truly. But when you see what you can't see unless you REALLY looked, then a Goodrich, Sachs, Kirk are, oh, about ten million times further down the road in terms of pure attention and focus on building craft.

dbrk

[swoop]

this isn't meant to be a semantics rant.. but i think this thread needs to sound something like:

what specific bikes have the highest craftsmanship in any given material.
caregories like.......
attention to detail
mastery of materials
understanding of fit and design
use of novel solutions
elegant solutions with difficult to handle materials
interface with customer
small medium and larger production runs with excellent design
thinking outside the box
quality solutions for mass production
best stock sizing
fullest line of usable bikes.
simple solution to complex problems
elegant methodolgy


stuff like that.

nicest buns:
most luxurious hair:
hairiest legs:
retro moustache:
what builder is the slowest rider:
biggest fred making colest rig:

all the important stuff.

[Grant McLean]

. [Insert your favorite old timer or brand here] was great, truly. But when you see what you can't see unless you REALLY looked, then a Goodrich, Sachs, Kirk are, oh, about ten million times further down the road in terms of pure attention and focus on building craft.

dbrk

Kind of like the 1928 yankees.
Seemed awesome at the time, but today, it's hard to imagine they'd stack up well.

g

[Serpico]

damn I love that movie!

[atmo]

snipped.
atmo my props go to serotta.
ever since ben showed an oval tube-ed track frame at
the ny cycle show mebbe in 1978, through to the colorado
shaped pipes in the 80s, and now to the present with all
the latest materials so well presented, i have thought
serotta cycles is the only company that makes frames
the way framebuilders make frames, except they do it
en masse. it's hardly mass at all, but they have somehow
made the leap from f'builder to industry icon. a builder that
looks at growth or one that needs a model to copy would be
blind not to have serotta at the top of the industrial espionage
list atmo. ben and company have always pushed the limits,
and - more importantly - have done it with elan atmo.

[manet]

damn I love that movie!

creepy without the chainsaw

[swoop]

atmo my props go to serotta.
ever since ben showed an oval tube-ed track frame at
the ny cycle show mebbe in 1978, through to the colorado
shaped pipes in the 80s, and now to the present with all
the latest materials so well presented, i have thought
serotta cycles is the only company that makes frames
the way framebuilders make frames, except they do it
en masse. it's hardly mass at all, but they have somehow
made the leap from f'builder to industry icon. a builder that
looks at growth or one that needs a model to copy would be
blind not to have serotta at the top of the industrial espionage
list atmo. ben and company have always pushed the limits,
and - more importantly - have done it with elan atmo.

that's more like what i was looking for. indeed.