30 for 30 Lance part 2. Any changes?

[bikinchris]

Has the second part of 30 for 30 Lance part 2 made ANY difference in your opinion of Lance?

I saw a huge correlation between him and Michael Jordan in how they thought about their competition.

[Spdntrxi]

no change.. to me he's still 7x winner of TDF

[FlashUNC]

Did he apologize to Betsy and Greg?

Did he apologize to Paul Kimmage?

Did he not seem like a pathological liar and narcissist?

If not, then no, probably not.

[Tony T]

Did he apologize to Betsy and Greg?

Did he apologize to Paul Kimmage?

Did he not seem like a pathological liar and narcissist?

If not, then no, probably not.

Somehow, i don’t believe you that those apologies, if given, would change your opinion of Lance Armstrong.

[FlashUNC]

Somehow, i don’t believe you that those apologies, if given, would change your opinion of Lance Armstrong.

At this point, no, you're probably right, seeing as the man seems incapable of anything approximating contrition and understanding how he hurt other people.

But showing even basic human empathy and not, say, apologizing the way he did in the Oprah interview would be a first step.

[Tony T]

At this point, no, you're probably right, seeing as the man seems incapable of anything approximating contrition and understanding how he hurt other people.

But showing even basic human empathy and not, say, apologizing the way he did in the Oprah interview would be a first step.

He has a lot of empathy for cancer patients, and gave a lot of his time to people suffering.
But you believe that he only used the LA foundation for “cover”.

Be fair, there is nothing that would change your opinion.

[peanutgallery]

no change.. to me he's still -7 winner of TDF

Fixed it for you, he's in the red when it comes to the Tour

[Tony T]

no change.. to me he's still 7x winner of TDF

Agreed.

[wc1934]

no change.. to me he's still 7x winner of TDF

Is he? What record books are you referencing? I can't find his name - I see Greg Lemond, but dont see LA.

[Alaska Mike]

My opinion of him is lower.

He's not a victim.

[sailorboy]

I know seeing a few pieces of a TV interview with someone doesn't mean you know them, but Anna Hansen seems like a pretty genuine person, nice, smart, attractive.

Couldn't she do better?

[FlashUNC]

He has a lot of empathy for cancer patients, and gave a lot of his time to people suffering.
But you believe that he only used the LA foundation for “cover”.

Be fair, there is nothing that would change your opinion.

He may very well have, but all of that was ruined the second he insinuated he'd never dope because it would be a betrayal to those people. He sold them a bill of goods just like everyone else that was a fiction.

What would change my opinion? Retiring from public life and going to help cancer patients without a camera crew around.

The comparison I make is Michael Vick. The guy is still working with ASPCA and Humane Society groups today, even after retiring. Do you see it plastered on ESPN? No. But the guy make a horrible mistake, and has done a lot of good work atoning for it.

Lance, as always, is all about Lance. This ESPN special is no different and yet another attempt to rehab the image.

[Spdntrxi]

Is he? What record books are you referencing? I can't find his name - I see Greg Lemond, but dont see LA.

you dont have to like it or like him... I'm still a greg fan.

I watched all 7 of them bicycle races on TV.. he won.

[Alaska Mike]

He has a lot of empathy for cancer patients, and gave a lot of his time to people suffering.
But you believe that he only used the LA foundation for “cover”
Lance profited financially from Livestrong/LA Foundation (https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/14/sports/cycling/lance-armstrongs-business-brand-and-livestrong-are-bound-together.html). I don't doubt it started as an altruistic movement at its genesis, but he used it both as a shield from criticism and a profit center over the years. It was a tool at his disposal, and he used it like he used EPO.

Again, Lance is not a victim.

[pdmtong]

Part 2 much more insightful than Part 1

Would have been nice to have more commentary from other people and less -7

[Tony T]

What would change my opinion? Retiring from public life and going to help cancer patients without a camera crew around.

The comparison I make is Michael Vick. The guy is still working with ASPCA and Humane Society groups today, even after retiring. Do you see it plastered on ESPN? No. But the guy make a horrible mistake, and has done a lot of good work atoning for it.


Vick’s 30 for 30 was "plastered" on ESPN like Lance’s was.

.

[mg2ride]

Did he apologize to FlashUNC or other people that had absolutely nothing to do with any of this?

If he did of ever does, I will discard him as a Pu---. Until then, I'm still a fanboy!

And P.S. He absolutely did win the TDF 7 times. That is fact.

[Nomadmax]

A thief will steal and a murderer will kill but you never really know where you stand with a liar.

[weisan]

It's probable that people who share some aspects of similarity whether it's their approach to life, value system, cancer survivorship, the way they get to the top, their background, romantic life, career advancement strategy, personality, social circle etc etc tend to or is better able to sympathize with Lance in some ways and those who don't, tend to find him offensive, in direct loggerheads and unforgivable.

It comes down to the individual, not so much what Lance did or did not do.

There's no need to get defensive or negative.

Every one of us has a perfectly good mirror at home. Just go and look at yourself in the mirror and you will know the answer to that. Don't need to tell us.

Lance and I are almost the same age.

I can sympathize with him. Doesn't mean he and I will agree on everything but I think we can have a good conversation.

[fijichf]

He was a good salesman until the house of cards fell...made you want to believe. I feel sorry for his kids.

[Elefantino]

I tore my shirt over -7 long ago.

I'd rather discuss politics than pond scum.

[makoti]

Didn't watch, so can't say. Did he come clean, really clean, on how big an ass he was? How he tried to destroy those who stood up to him? Or, was it as he said in the promo, "My truth"? I'm guessing that's what he did, so don't feel I missed anything.

Defend him all you want. Record books are rightfully devoid of his name. Continue to believe your fantasies, because they made good television. He never won the TdF.

[sailorboy]

Part 2 much more insightful than Part 1

Would have been nice to have more commentary from other people and less -7

This ^
The best parts of both 1 and 2 were the comments from others, especially his former inner circle like Floyd, Tyler, Frankie etc. I know we've probably heard all the truth from them in the past several times over, but it would have been more interesting to hear more of their take on how Lance has or had vindictively attempted to ruin their lives, or conversely how they survived those attempts and prospered (reminds one of another toxic narcissist we have front and center).

One of the best scenes was of Tyler explaining how he hated Lance for a while, but he realized he had to let it go and move on with his life. Yet it seemed clear that Lance hasn't fully moved on and still harbors toxic feelings toward many people.

[GregL]

Yet it seemed clear that Lance hasn't fully moved on and still harbors toxic feelings toward many people.
This was my take. Lance still comes across as a sociopath. A more contrite, controlled sociopath, but his moral/ethical compass still doesn't point north. The segment with his eldest son was telling. When the interviewer asked Lance what he would say to Luke if he (Luke) wanted to use PEDs, Lance qualified the answer with the condition that his advice may be different for college and pro sports. It was clear that to Lance, lying/cheating are situationally dependent. If you are still making those kind of rationalizations, you haven't learned your lesson. There were several other moments like that within the second episode. My conclusion: a reasonably balanced documentary that was worth watching.

Greg

[LegendRider]

Lance's answer to the hospital room question was hilariously evasive. Basically he said those who want to believe it (Betsy, Frankie) can believe it, but he has no recollection.

[djg21]

This ^
The best parts of both 1 and 2 were the comments from others, especially his former inner circle like Floyd, Tyler, Frankie etc. I know we've probably heard all the truth from them in the past several times over, but it would have been more interesting to hear more of their take on how Lance has or had vindictively attempted to ruin their lives, or conversely how they survived those attempts and prospered (reminds one of another toxic narcissist we have front and center).

One of the best scenes was of Tyler explaining how he hated Lance for a while, but he realized he had to let it go and move on with his life. Yet it seemed clear that Lance hasn't fully moved on and still harbors toxic feelings toward many people.

I wasn’t inclined to watch it because I figured it would rehash the same stuff we already know. But I watched it last night, and while it did rehash the same stuff, it was interesting to hear from the others involved like Landis, Hamilton, Julich, Emma O’Reilly, etc.

In the end, the show confirmed my belief that Armstrong is a narcissistic sociopath and bully. One of the most telling exchanges, IMO, was when he was asked if he would object to his college football playing son using PEDS. He answered that he would tell him it was a bad idea now, but if he were in the NFL “it would be different conversation.” So according to Lance, it’s OK to dope if you are a professional athlete. It’s also pretty clear that he did have the UCI doing his bidding, and he likely was the one who (vindictively) reported Hamilton.

I also thought it interesting to hear from his old Triathlon coach about how much of jackass and bully he was even as a teenager when he was first starting out in that sport. The guy is rich from his investments (Uber). He should just go away.

[FlashUNC]

Did he apologize to FlashUNC or other people that had absolutely nothing to do with any of this?

If he did of ever does, I will discard him as a Pu---. Until then, I'm still a fanboy!

And P.S. He absolutely did win the TDF 7 times. That is fact.

Contrition is not a sign of weakness.

[PQJ]

And P.S. He absolutely did win the TDF 7 times. That is fact.

It's also a fact that he was stripped of all seven titles. The official record of the history of the race makes no mention of him (https://www.letour.fr/en/history). An unofficial record of the history of the races has his name crossed out; seven times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tour_de_France_general_classification_winn ers). That's gotta burn.

Still, I enjoyed watching him race and I enjoyed the 30 for 30 thingie. It didn't change my opinion of him, which has softened over time. He's an asshole and he got his due.

[54ny77]

Great show, well done. Leaves the viewer with plenty of info to form their own opinion.

Agree with those who said sociopath. And all of it in connection with riding bikes with skinny tires. Who knew. Amazing.

[Spdntrxi]

It's also a fact that he was stripped of all seven titles. The official record of the history of the race makes no mention of him (https://www.letour.fr/en/history). An unofficial record of the history of the races has his name crossed out; seven times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tour_de_France_general_classification_winn ers). That's gotta burn.

Still, I enjoyed watching him race and I enjoyed the 30 for 30 thingie. It didn't change my opinion of him, which has softened over time. He's an asshole and he got his due.

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/media/USATODAY/gameon/2012/11/12/media_22700756-1-16_9.jpg?auto=webp&format=pjpg&width=1200

[GregL]

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/media/USATODAY/gameon/2012/11/12/media_22700756-1-16_9.jpg?auto=webp&format=pjpg&width=1200
You do realize that the picture you posted is nearly 8 years old? The house that picture was taken in was sold in part because Lance needed the cash when all his sponsors abandoned him. I'd be surprised if Lance is still sleeping so soundly surrounded by his framed yellow jerseys today.

Greg

[bikinchris]

Like I said. It struck me how he, like many top athletes have a VERY mean side that will attack anyone who gets in the way of winning.
In many ways I feel sorry for him, but also see that he brought this all on himself. No one made him race. But he chose to race and that meant he had to dope.

Every single popular professional sport has a HUGE doping problem. If anyone says a particular sport doesn't have a problem, they're probably in denial.

[texbike]

I'd be surprised if Lance is still sleeping so soundly surrounded by his framed yellow jerseys today.

Greg

I'm sure that Lance is sleeping just fine. His estimated net worth now is around $50M - https://fanbuzz.com/national/lance-armstrong-net-worth .

But, yeah - sociopath all the way!

Texbike

[BobbyJones]

Sticking to just the things I learned in part 2 that I didn't know / suspect before:

1) Has no respect for any of his competition (besides that, um, "emotion" for Jan)

2) Hates Floyd

3) Hasn't changed much, he's gonna be who he is.

[Spdntrxi]

You do realize that the picture you posted is nearly 8 years old? The house that picture was taken in was sold in part because Lance needed the cash when all his sponsors abandoned him. I'd be surprised if Lance is still sleeping so soundly surrounded by his framed yellow jerseys today.

Greg

The point of the picture is the jerseys.. are you saying he is unable to remove them off the wall and take them with him ?:rolleyes:

he still has the jerseys !

[54ny77]

He crapped all over Hincapie. Was surprised at hearing him say that one.

[GregL]

The point of the picture is the jerseys.. are you saying he is unable to remove them off the wall and take them with him ?:rolleyes:

he still has the jerseys !
The photo was taken when he was still proclaiming his innocence. Yes, he can take the jerseys with him and yes, he very likely still has them. To anyone knowledgeable of the sport and Armstrong's behavior, they no longer have a positive meaning. I have no idea if Armstrong has those jerseys on display in his Aspen home. Based on his lack of contrition, it wouldn't surprise me if he did. A person with more humanity would likely not display them.

Greg

[Spdntrxi]

^ it's Lance.. they are on display;)

[pdmtong]

It was kind of like watching Westworld where there is a really good android of -7 who at times almost completely convinces you there is a caring human in there but then it is revealed that underneath the human interface there is an unfeeling machine

He did say "I'm sorry" at the end.

He did say he was wrong to call Emma a wh_re

Wonder why they left Greg out.

I really enjoyed hearing and seeing Floyd. Remember that epic ride? The 100's of bottles that came out of the car it was so hot.

I know we've all heard the commentary, but it was still great to see the others actually say what they said on screen. Especially Tyler.

If I could wave a wand I'd replace CVdV with Frankie on any cycling broadcast. I suppose since there are no races it doesn't matter anyways.

[Burnette]

He crapped all over Hincapie. Was surprised at hearing him say that one.

Aren't Hincapie and Armstrong promoting an expensive bike tour together for later this year?

[zap]

I watched.

Most interesting was when he talked about Jan and Pantani......especially Jan.

[jemdet]

I don't know the guy personally, but it wouldn't be a stretch to say that he's self-centered and has a disregard for others. He just got good at riding bikes. If he worked at a Walgreens he probably would've gotten fired. You can be successful without being an asshole.

The charity aspect is true, both in terms of visibility and funding. It also raised his own profile and made him more valuable to sponsors. That doesn't mean that he didn't believe in it.

Anyway, seems like a lot of people feel like the guy did wrong by them. He doesn't particularly care or, worse, has fostered an active dislike of them. Humans first, sport second.

[azrider]

You do realize that the picture you posted is nearly 8 years old? The house that picture was taken in was sold in part because Lance needed the cash when all his sponsors abandoned him. I'd be surprised if Lance is still sleeping so soundly surrounded by his framed yellow jerseys today.

Greg

Im pretty sure that dude is doing JUST fine. That $5M settlement wouldn’t have made a scratch on his net worth. Good for him.......

[merlinmurph]

Outside Online has an interesting podcast (https://www.outsideonline.com/2413991/marina-zenovich-lance-armstrong-documentary-podcast) where they interview Marina Zenovich, the woman who made the Lance documentary. Great insight on what she was looking for and how she interviewed Lance.

I haven't even watched it, yet, it's sitting on my DVR.

[azrider]

I found Part I to be entertaining and informative....at least for me.

I was uneducated on the timeline of certain aspects and it's always fun to see behind scenes stuff. (That first house he built himself, before age of 22 or 23, riding a bicycle......is pretty cool.) Sounds like it was helluva investment also ;)

[ntb1001]

Lance still comes across as a sociopath. A more contrite, controlled sociopath, but his moral/ethical compass still doesn't point north. The segment with his eldest son was telling. When the interviewer asked Lance what he would say to Luke if he (Luke) wanted to use PEDs, Lance qualified the answer with the condition that his advice may be different for college and pro sports. It was clear that to Lance, lying/cheating are situationally dependent. If you are still making those kind of rationalizations, you haven't learned your lesson.

Greg



My take on this is just a realization of what pro sports have become. Obviously it’s not just about beliefs or what’s right or wrong...PED’s are widespread in all sports.


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[bikinchris]

I don't know the guy personally, but it wouldn't be a stretch to say that he's self-centered and has a disregard for others. He just got good at riding bikes. If he worked at a Walgreens he probably would've gotten fired. You can be successful without being an asshole.

The charity aspect is true, both in terms of visibility and funding. It also raised his own profile and made him more valuable to sponsors. That doesn't mean that he didn't believe in it.

Anyway, seems like a lot of people feel like the guy did wrong by them. He doesn't particularly care or, worse, has fostered an active dislike of them. Humans first, sport second.

Most of the top sports players of ANY sport are arrogant, self centered pricks. Think Michael Jordan. I'm guessing y'all watched The Last Dance? Think also Tom Brady. DO you think he's a sweet guy? You are correct that SOME top players can be nice guys. Think Drew Brees. But those guys are the exception.

[jlwdm]

...

If I could wave a wand I'd replace CVdV with Frankie on any cycling broadcast. I suppose since there are no races it doesn't matter anyways.

CVV is a horrible announcer, but Frankie is not any better. I would not listen to either one of them.

Jeff

[eBAUMANN]

I started paying attention to cycling right before Lance came back to ride with Astana. I was never personally invested in him as a story/hero/etc during the height of his career which I think it was keeps me from feeling overly passionate about him in one way or another.

Yes, he is an arrogant uber-competive asshole that stomped on a lot of people on his way to the top...so are many other pro athletes who achieve the fame he did.

But think about this - it all started when he was 15, his mentality/approach to life and other people. Once that snowball started rolling it was just one thing after another, lies in service of previous lies, compounded by the pressure/money/etc that comes with fame/success. Not trying to excuse his behavior but its quite easy to see how and why things unfolded the way they did.

Was he a victim? No. He just played the game of doping better than everyone else and as a result fell further when it all came tumbling down. There are many others who cheated just as much as he did and yet they are not cast in nearly the same light because he was successful AND an asshole.

I think the most important thing to keep in mind when judging the actions of any cyclist of this era is what would you have done in their shoes? You dedicate your entire life to a dream of racing professionally, and when the opportunity finally, FINALLY comes knocking, it has a contract in one hand and a blood bag in the other. Its easy to sit there in your chair and say you would have never done this and that and that cheating is wrong but if everyone is doing the same thing...and the playing field is leveled in that sense, is it still "cheating?" Thats a really tough decision for ANYONE to make...let alone some young kid.

[Alaska Mike]

CVV is a horrible announcer, but Frankie is not any better. I would not listen to either one of them.
Honestly, I can't see announcing road cycling races for a US audience as being a lucrative gig. It's a niche sport, and the internet has completely eroded the already small broadcast market. Those of us who care look elsewhere for announcers with funny accents. I really don't care if NBC broadcasts the Tour or not. I can watch just about any sport I want to any time of the day in just about any language. Lance didn't make that happen. Al Gore did. :rolleyes:

Most of us in the US grew up with Phil and Paul as the sound of televised cycling, with a few other notable voices thrown in there for color. It gave the sport an "authentic" color, even if they were wrong more than they were right. Guys like Bobke and Jens got by on preexisting likability rather than anything they added to the televised content. Racers with less personality, like CVV and Frankie (among many others) just don't have the vocal chops, charisma, or whatever to make a bike race interesting- even if they have good points to make.

That said, I'll take CVV and Frankie any day over John Tesh or the other non-racers NBC has thrown in the booth over the years.

[weisan]

The only guy who knows what the he!! he's talking about is Robbie McEwen.

[Peter P.]

You do realize ... by his framed yellow jerseys today.

I believe he was ordered by the TdF organization to return his 7 trophies.

[Alaska Mike]

I think the most important thing to keep in mind when judging the actions of any cyclist of this era is what would you have done in their shoes? You dedicate your entire life to a dream of racing professionally, and when the opportunity finally, FINALLY comes knocking, it has a contract in one hand and a blood bag in the other. Its easy to sit there in your chair and say you would have never done this and that and that cheating is wrong but if everyone is doing the same thing...and the playing field is leveled in that sense, is it still "cheating?" Thats a really tough decision for ANYONE to make...let alone some young kid.
The level playing field argument is thrown out a lot. It's garbage.

Gewiss (to use an example from the documentary) was a dominant team for a time. Their secret weapon? Michele Ferrari, who Lance sought out and eventually obtained an almost exclusive contract with (at least among GC contenders). His doping protocols were far ahead of anyone else at that time. Compare this with Floyd and Tyler's experiences with other doctors (e.g. Fuentes). No cyclist on Postal/Discovery was sanctioned for a positive control while they were on the team, but doping was very much part of their success story. Ferrari ran a very controlled and professional doping operation. Fuente's organization was a clown show in comparison.

There are countless other examples of eyebrow raising performances that were more a question of willingness to dope to the extreme than any sort of natural athletic prowess. Riis? Mapei 1-2-3? Books have been filled with the stories.

Post Festina and the eventual development of an EPO test, blood transfusions took on a huge role in GT performance. There is a large difference in complexity in obtaining, storing, distributing, and administering blood bags vs a vial of EPO. That comes at a large financial and logistical cost, and when you spread it across an entire team, transfusions become that much more complex. Not every team had that sort of will to win at any cost or the resources to pull it off.

Tyler detailed getting a bad blood bag in The Secret Race. Floyd got popped for testosterone, which he claimed he didn't use during the Tour. If he didn't, it likely came from the blood bag he had the night before. Ferrari was extremely careful in his doping regimes to avoid detection, yet managed to achieve better results through planning. Most other doctors were not that diligent, and a lot of riders got popped, sick, or both.

Then there's the simple fact that not everyone responds to doping protocols equally. Not everyone was able to get that 10% EPO performance bump Vaughters throws around and still remain undetected, depending on a variety of factors. The closest we ever came to drugs "leveling the playing field" was when the haematocrit limit was published and riders just doped up to that. Even then, you had Mr 60% putting his finger on the scale.

Not a level playing field at all. Clean or dirty, cycling has never been about fairness.

[Black Dog]

The level playing field argument is thrown out a lot. It's garbage.

Gewiss (to use an example from the documentary) was a dominant team for a time. Their secret weapon? Michele Ferrari, who Lance sought out and eventually obtained an almost exclusive contract with (at least among GC contenders). His doping protocols were far ahead of anyone else at that time. Compare this with Floyd and Tyler's experiences with other doctors (e.g. Fuentes). No cyclist on Postal/Discovery was sanctioned for a positive control while they were on the team, but doping was very much part of their success story. Ferrari ran a very controlled and professional doping operation. Fuente's organization was a clown show in comparison.

There are countless other examples of eyebrow raising performances that were more a question of willingness to dope to the extreme than any sort of natural athletic prowess. Riis? Mapei 1-2-3? Books have been filled with the stories.

Post Festina and the eventual development of an EPO test, blood transfusions took on a huge role in GT performance. There is a large difference in complexity in obtaining, storing, distributing, and administering blood bags vs a vial of EPO. That comes at a large financial and logistical cost, and when you spread it across an entire team, transfusions become that much more complex. Not every team had that sort of will to win at any cost or the resources to pull it off.

Tyler detailed getting a bad blood bag in The Secret Race. Floyd got popped for testosterone, which he claimed he didn't use during the Tour. If he didn't, it likely came from the blood bag he had the night before. Ferrari was extremely careful in his doping regimes to avoid detection, yet managed to achieve better results through planning. Most other doctors were not that diligent, and a lot of riders got popped, sick, or both.

Then there's the simple fact that not everyone responds to doping protocols equally. Not everyone was able to get that 10% EPO performance bump Vaughters throws around and still remain undetected, depending on a variety of factors. The closest we ever came to drugs "leveling the playing field" was when the haematocrit limit was published and riders just doped up to that. Even then, you had Mr 60% putting his finger on the scale.

Not a level playing field at all. Clean or dirty, cycling has never been about fairness.

Very well said.

[goonster]

We have learned that he can't shave a block of cheese, with a ****ing safety peeler, without causing a minor medical incident.

And there are candid reactions from those closest to him that made me cringe. Involuntarily, physically cringe, and have to pause the stream until I could pull the hand off my face.

[JasonF]

Most of the top sports players of ANY sport are arrogant, self centered pricks.

Sad but true. My brother is a sportscaster and behind closed doors will tell us stories about the narcissism (to put it lightly) displayed by a lot of the players in all pro sports.

But to keep things positive, he gushes on and on about how awesome Paul Pierce (Celtics) and Big Papi (Sox) were, even when they were in the midst of cold streaks and the pressure was on. And I'm not a fan of any Boston sports team ;)

[prototoast]

Not a level playing field at all. Clean or dirty, cycling has never been about fairness.

If one internalizes the doping as part of the game, it becomes level. I don't have strong feelings either way, but a lot of the lines drawn strike me as arbitrary. Even an outwardly vocal "clean" rider like Phil Gaimon describes getting using prescription sleep aids to help him recover during stage races. If you're Lance and you view EPO or blood transfusions as all part of the game, just like popping a sleeping pill, it doesn't make sense why year after year people keep expecting him to pretend it was all a mistake he regrets.

[goonster]

If you're Lance and you view EPO or blood transfusions as all part of the game, just like popping a sleeping pill

He doesn't, though. He used to be a vocal anti-doper. The pre and post-Ferrari line is crystal clear in his own narrative. He differentiates between cortisone and EPO. He was always aware of the level at which he was deceiving the public. He was just better at going all-in on the lies and living with the contradictions.

[bronk]

The best part about Part 2 was to see that his son gets it. So, it confirms egotistical jackass isn't hereditary.

[Waldo62]

Yeah, that show of "love" for Jan was hilarious and oh so genuine.

Sticking to just the things I learned in part 2 that I didn't know / suspect before:

1) Has no respect for any of his competition (besides that, um, "emotion" for Jan)

2) Hates Floyd

3) Hasn't changed much, he's gonna be who he is.

[veloduffer]

I’ve no sympathy for Lance but the hypocrisy in big business sports annoys the heck out of me. Lance was correct how some are treated as pariahs and others forgiven. And stripping the titles away was necessary but didn’t go far enough. The most blatant example is Barney Riis, who had nothing in his palmares and then comes in 3rd and the following year wins the TdF ahead of Indurain. He admits taking EPO and keeps his title.


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[goonster]

Yeah, that show of "love" for Jan was hilarious and oh so genuine.

I think it's genuine, but mostly projected self-pity.

That said, as far as I can tell Jan is in a really, really bad way. I saw a German interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnoZEmJiQx4) from about a year ago, conducted in a rehab clinic, that was really shocking.

[Waldo62]

I think it's genuine, but mostly projected self-pity.

That said, as far as I can tell Jan is in a really, really bad way. I saw a German interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnoZEmJiQx4) from about a year ago, conducted in a rehab clinic, that was really shocking.

A system that took a fragile pre-teen from his family, put him in a cutthroat environment, then thrust him in limelight brighter than someone with limited social/coping skills could ever bear. Not surprising. See how many former American collegiate and pro athletes end up in the criminal system.

[bikinchris]

I’ve no sympathy for Lance but the hypocrisy in big business sports annoys the heck out of me. Lance was correct how some are treated as pariahs and others forgiven. And stripping the titles away was necessary but didn’t go far enough. The most blatant example is Barney Riis, who had nothing in his palmares and then comes in 3rd and the following year wins the TdF ahead of Indurain. He admits taking EPO and keeps his title.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The ONLY people who had a Tour win erased were Americans. Even though it is obvious that all of the riders who raced over the last several decades cheated.

[thirdgenbird]

The ONLY people who had a Tour win erased were Americans.

Alberto Contador

[Alaska Mike]

The most blatant example is Barney Riis, who had nothing in his palmares and then comes in 3rd and the following year wins the TdF ahead of Indurain. He admits taking EPO and keeps his title.
Actually, ASO and the UCI asked for Bjarne to return his jersey, but had limited legal recourse. Riis offered to return it, but I don’t know where that went.
https://www.espn.com/olympics/cycling/news/story?id=2882380
Riis and similar types shouldn’t have a place in cycling, but you’ll never root them all out.

[weisan]

https://www.cyclingutah.com/cms/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Eddy-Merckx-Giro-1969-1.jpg.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vxd4t9gTOSE/hqdefault.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a6/93/3c/a6933c447250837c97b3b4f57e7135fa.jpg

[Alaska Mike]

Fair enough. Merckx did make the introduction to Ferrari for Lance (and Axel). He knew the deal and perpetuated the arms race.

Still, I have a signed picture of him next to my trainer.

Cycling is such a complex sport.

[dannymd]

No changes

[bikinchris]

Alberto Contador

I stand corrected.

[fiamme red]

I think it's genuine, but mostly projected self-pity.

That said, as far as I can tell Jan is in a really, really bad way. I saw a German interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnoZEmJiQx4) from about a year ago, conducted in a rehab clinic, that was really shocking.His feelings for Jan seemed genuine to me too. I remember he said something about his and Jan's situations today being very similar. The interviewer should have followed up on that remark.

I don't know what Lance means when he says that wouldn't change a thing about his life. Surely in retrospect he regrets his comeback, at least?

[rain dogs]

I stand corrected.

Juan Jose Cobo (Spanish) as well - 2011 Vuelta which they hilariously gave to Froome while he/Sky were throwing the threat of millions in legal defense at the UCI for HIS adverse analytical finding.

[LouDeeter]

For seven years, I got a great deal of enjoyment watching Lance compete, and win. I have a great deal of respect for how he competed in a tough sport. The TV program told the story. I enjoyed watching it. Did it change my opinion of him, no. His personal character is what it is. Many people at the top of their field are not that far distant from him in that regard.

[Pegoready]

I thought it was fascinating that the only time he showed any true emotion was talking about Jan Ullrich. I had no idea he felt so close to him. I'd love to delve more into that relationship.

He had a lot of pals it seems- George, various Austin characters, celebs, Frankie, his first wife Kristin, but he always appeared like he could take or leave them at any moment being the harsh person he is. What made Jan so special?

[KJMUNC]

The two most interesting comments for me in this episode were:

1: about talking to his son if he came to him about using PEDs: he basically said he would tell him it’s a bad idea....unless he was in the NFL, which he said would be a diff story. That tells me he still has no problem with it.

2: his animosity towards Floyd, who didn’t lie, cheat, or steal from LA....he just lured him for the person he is. He’s mad he broke the “bro-code” of doping.

These points tell me exactly what kind of person he still is. I enjoyed watching him race but he is a crummy person, and that’s putting it nicely.

[b33]

In front of his son's college football team he got his son's jersey number completely wrong. Like not even close. His son corrected him later. I'm sure his son got grief in the locker room.

It's all about Lance all the time - still is and will be forever. Even his own flesh and blood can't penetrate that stronghold.

[fiamme red]

I thought it was fascinating that the only time he showed any true emotion was talking about Jan Ullrich. I had no idea he felt so close to him. I'd love to delve more into that relationship.

He had a lot of pals it seems- George, various Austin characters, celebs, Frankie, his first wife Kristin, but he always appeared like he could take or leave them at any moment being the harsh person he is. What made Jan so special?He implied that Jan was his only real rival, the only one who motivated him to train when he didn't want to, and that all the others besides Jan weren't in Lance's league. So Jan occupied Lance's thoughts a lot at the peak of his career.

I was surprised to hear Lance whine at the end about Basso being treated well by the Italians: "The country of Italy glorifies Ivan Basso, idolizes him, puts him up there, gives him jobs, invites him to races, puts him on TV. He's no different to any of us... Yet, they disgraced Marco Pantani, they destroyed him in the press, they kick him out of the sport and he's dead, he's ****ing dead." I thought that Lance and Basso were friends. In 2004 Lance gave the stage win at La Mongie to Basso because Basso's mother was sick with cancer.

[b33]

"The country of Italy glorifies Ivan Basso, idolizes him, puts him up there, gives him jobs, invites him to races, puts him on TV. He's no different to any of us... Yet, they disgraced Marco Pantani, they destroyed him in the press, they kick him out of the sport and he's dead, he's ****ing dead."

I saw this as Lance being self-serving and telling another lie. Italy loves Pantani - they made a documentary and his funeral was huge. Then again who is going to know but some bike dorks - so no one checks.

[Tony T]

He implied that Jan was his only real rival, the only one who motivated him to train when he didn't want to, and that all the others besides Jan weren't in Lance's league. So Jan occupied Lance's thoughts a lot at the peak of his career.

I was surprised to hear Lance whine at the end about Basso being treated well by the Italians: "The country of Italy glorifies Ivan Basso, idolizes him, puts him up there, gives him jobs, invites him to races, puts him on TV. He's no different to any of us... Yet, they disgraced Marco Pantani, they destroyed him in the press, they kick him out of the sport and he's dead, he's ****ing dead." I thought that Lance and Basso were friends. In 2004 Lance gave the stage win at La Mongie to Basso because Basso's mother was sick with cancer.

Ivan Basso has refused to hit back at Lance Armstrong despite the Texan's claims in the ESPN 30 for 30 documentary that Basso, along with several other ex-dopers, was "glorified" and had an easy path back to the sport after his doping suspension, still playing an active role and earn a living today

Basso also refused to criticise Armstrong for the support the Texan showed him and his family.

"To be frank, I haven’t seen the documentary and so I don’t know if he expressed himself that way. I can only say that I'll always be grateful to Lance, because he was always helpful, very helpful. When my mother Nives became ill with cancer, he did everything he could to help us. The same when I was ill in 2015. What can I say? He was always generous and there to help."

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/basso-refuses-to-hit-back-at-armstrong-after-espn-hypocrisy-rant/

[glepore]

He implied that Jan was his only real rival, the only one who motivated him to train when he didn't want to, and that all the others besides Jan weren't in Lance's league. So Jan occupied Lance's thoughts a lot at the peak of his career.

I was surprised to hear Lance whine at the end about Basso being treated well by the Italians: "The country of Italy glorifies Ivan Basso, idolizes him, puts him up there, gives him jobs, invites him to races, puts him on TV. He's no different to any of us... Yet, they disgraced Marco Pantani, they destroyed him in the press, they kick him out of the sport and he's dead, he's ****ing dead." I thought that Lance and Basso were friends. In 2004 Lance gave the stage win at La Mongie to Basso because Basso's mother was sick with cancer.

He also mentioned George being lionized. George and Lance remain good friends. He wasn't complaining about the riders per se, but about the disparate treatment.

[Tony T]

He also mentioned George being lionized. George and Lance remain good friends. He wasn't complaining about the riders per se, but about the disparate treatment.

But they’re nice guys, so ok if they doped.

[fiamme red]

Here's a better explanation of why Lance was moved by Jan's plight:

https://sports.yahoo.com/lance-armstrong-jan-ullrich-tour-181624028.html

For Armstrong, Ullrich began transforming from rival to friend in 2005. After Armstrong won his last (later stripped) Tour de France that July, he was told Ullrich wanted to show up at Armstrong’s victory party in a luxury Paris hotel. Ullrich wanted to say a few words in front of hundreds of Armstrong supporters.

“If you know Jan, you know that his English is not great,” Armstrong said in a 2017 episode of one of his podcasts. “I’m just going, no, this can’t be happening. This is not real. Jan showed up and took the mic and gave a speech and talked about me and talked about us. It was the classiest thing that anybody ever did for me in my cycling career. I’ll never forget it. I love him for it.

“I wasn’t man enough to do that. If the roles were reversed, there’s no way I would have done that. But for him to do that, that’s something that I’ll never forget the rest of my life.”

[charliedid]

But they’re nice guys, so ok if they doped.

And none of them won 7 tours. Oh how we love to witness the fall of the mighty.

[Pegoready]

In front of his son's college football team he got his son's jersey number completely wrong. Like not even close. His son corrected him later. I'm sure his son got grief in the locker room.

It's all about Lance all the time - still is and will be forever. Even his own flesh and blood can't penetrate that stronghold.

Ha, yeah, that was a little painful but to be fair he did say the number his son happened to be scrimmaging in that day. I've never played football so I don't understand the gravity of the number.

It's clear Lance showed up that day to be #1 dad for the cameras. His son's interactions with him didn't seem entirely loving or normal.

[charliedid]

Ha, yeah, that was a little painful but to be fair he did say the number his son happened to be scrimmaging in that day. I've never played football so I don't understand the gravity of the number.

It's clear Lance showed up that day to be #1 dad for the cameras. His son's interactions with him didn't seem entirely loving or normal.

LOL so true both his son and daughter were a bit annoyed with him :-)

When he told his daughter to go faster in the boat was classic. Who knows how willing they were to even be part of the doc. in the first place. Being the kids of famous people isn't all it's cut out to be.

[Bentley]

I watched it, made a couple of observations

He is like a lot of successful people.. narcissistic, confident, focused... to me he does not “see” a lot of what is going on in the world.

He acknowledged he doped... basically said everyone was doing it so he did to compete.... I am not a pro, was not during that era, but a number of other people, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie... a even the guy who was not on Lance’s team seemed to say that it was the “culture” at the time.

He still has not forgiven or asked forgiveness of some of those he attacked.... Frankie and Betsy, Floyd Landis... a bunch of others. Won’t try to rationalize it.

My sense... his “odd” personality likely lead to his success, but also to his willingness to do anything to win.

There was a statement made in the show that he has a polarizing personality... I think that sums it up. You like him, or you don’t, not too much in the middle.

[gasman]

I think the strangest thing I took from it was his insistence that he wouldn't change a thing. To me that means he is unable to really examine his life and the mistakes he made. Heck, we all make mistakes.

I guess it just reflects that a true narcissist never thinks they've done anything wrong.

[Zackus]

I personally was hoping for a bit more focus on Floyd/Greg drama with an appearance by Greg. However on the other hand I understand that it was about Lance, and can understand why Greg wouldn't want to make an appearance. I enjoyed the documentary, didn't do much to chance my opinion of the man. He was incredibly competitive on and off the bike. Very strong cyclist but not a very like-able guy. That's where Greg and Floyd appeal to me more

[laupsi]

For seven years, I got a great deal of enjoyment watching Lance compete, and win. I have a great deal of respect for how he competed in a tough sport. The TV program told the story. I enjoyed watching it. Did it change my opinion of him, no. His personal character is what it is. Many people at the top of their field are not that far distant from him in that regard.

Sorry, you either weren’t paying attention or support the notion, the end always justifies the means. Or I’m clueless when it comes to judging other athletes.

[weisan]

I guess it just reflects that a true narcissist never thinks they've done anything wrong.

Traits of a true narcissist
@Grandiose sense of self-importance.
@Lives in a fantasy world that supports their delusions of grandeur.
@Needs constant praise and admiration.
@Sense of entitlement.
@Exploits others without guilt or shame.
@Frequently demeans, intimidates, bullies, or belittles others.

You can't even make this stuff up!

[Hawker]

Traits of a true narcissist
@Grandiose sense of self-importance.
@Lives in a fantasy world that supports their delusions of grandeur.
@Needs constant praise and admiration.
@Sense of entitlement.
@Exploits others without guilt or shame.
@Frequently demeans, intimidates, bullies, or belittles others.

You can't even make this stuff up!

Now I'm confused...who are we talking about?

[Nomadmax]

I think the strangest thing I took from it was his insistence that he wouldn't change a thing. To me that means he is unable to really examine his life and the mistakes he made. Heck, we all make mistakes.

I guess it just reflects that a true narcissist never thinks they've done anything wrong.

"What is a sociopath?

A sociopath is a term used to describe someone who has antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). People with ASPD can’t understand others’ feelings. They’ll often break rules or make impulsive decisions without feeling guilty for the harm they cause.

People with ASPD may also use “mind games” to control friends, family members, co-workers, and even strangers. They may also be perceived as charismatic or charming."

[fiamme red]

I found this article by Joe Lindsey interesting: https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a32745042/lance-armstrong-documentary-review-espn-30-for-30/.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Watching this second installment I was overcome with bewilderment, which quickly morphed into a confused anger to the point I found myself yelling rhetorical questions at the screen; "What are you DOING!? My god, man, how can you not see the error of your ways!?"

Even his own loved ones did not know the depth of Armstrong's flaws. The cameras rolling as they learned along with the rest of us.

How could this gifted athlete -- someone so driven to be the best -- a man who has lived his entire life with two opposable thumbs, not have the capacity, the dexterity, the intuition to use a common vegetable peeler? So very disturbing.

[Tony T]

Had this in my DVR since it aired and finally got around to watching it.
Very well done. Like him or hate him, this was an excellent 30 for 30

[jamesdak]

...and here we go again! :banana:

[Tony T]

Did you watch the 30 for 30?
Very interesting 4 hours. Enjoyed the old clips.

[mg2ride]

It likely reflects my lack of morale fiber, but I respect that he really hasn't changed all that much and is not completely apologetic.

I think he accepts that much of the stuff he did was wrong, but it is what it is. Being soft and sucking up to the haters wouldn't change a thing.

Rock on #7

As an interesting side note, if you ask non cyclist if they know who the famous athlete Greg Lemond is, about 50% will say the Olympic diver. Try it.