Suggestions.......Wheel Building....

[jhcakilmer]

Well, I think I'm going to try and build my first wheelset. And I'm looking for suggestions.......I'm 6'3 210lbs.........I'm pretty easy on equipment. I know their are several wheel building guides out there, and I would like to have something to reference, so what do you recommend. Also, what type of lacing pattern? Thanks.....

[SoCalSteve]

Being the BIG guy that I am, I suggest that you do a slightly aero style rim such as a Mavic CXP-33, DT Swiss RR 1.2 or the Velocity version (the name alludes me now) laced triple cross with double butted 14/15 spokes (32 of em) both front and rear.

What hub you choose really depends on the amount of money you have as I have used very expensive hubs (Phil-Chris King) and not so expensive ones such as Dura Ace and I find them all to work well.

There are 2 really good wheel building books out there one by Jobst Brandt and the other by Gerd Schraner.

As a very wise wheelbuilder on this Forum once told me (thank you Ergott) it takes one thing more than anything else to build a set of wheels.....PATIENCE!

Good luck to you!

Steve

[Louis]

There is also lots of good wheelbuilding advice here Sheldon Brown (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html) along with some spoke length calculators.

Louis

[ergott]

Make your first wheels you build last the longest.

Ultegra hubs (Record if you own Campy, sorry no more Chorus except NOS)
Velocity, Mavic, DT or IRD rims.
Sapim Race, DT Competition or Wheelsmith DB 14 spokes (they're all good)
brass nipples
32 spokes 3 cross all around

It's really basic, but its a formula that has worked for over a century. If you plan on building more than one set of wheels in the future here are some tools I recommend that aren't too expensive.

Park tensiometer (decent accuracy)
Wheelsmith rim rods (the only way to get a good ERD is to measure yourself).
Dish tool
Good spoke wrench (Spokey is good and cheap)
antiseize compound
grease
truing stand (an upside-down bike can work)

To get consistent results, get the components together and measure them. Don't get the spokes until you have all the measurements and have plugged them into a calculator (www.dtswiss.com has a great one). I have seen ERD (effective rim diameter) numbers supplied from the manufacturer that have been off by enough to have the wrong length spokes. Nothing is worse than building a set of wheels and finding out you have the wrong length 3/4 into the build.

Building them right does more to making wheels that last more than buying the best components.

Get the books mentioned above (Sheldon's site is also a must read) and set aside plenty of time. To plan on finishing 2 wheels in one night. Concentrate on one wheel and the front is a good place to start. Patience is your best tool. Post your results. You will be fine.

[jhcakilmer]

Thanks for the encouragement, and advice!!

I'm probably going to go with NOS chorus or record hubs, but still considering DA. How do the DA and campy build up....either 06 or 07...?

I was thinking about Ambrosio Excellights....I like the shallow box section, it seems they are strong and durable.........any advantages of eyelets or non-eyelet rims (I was also considering Velocity Fusion, or Aerohead).

Finally...Sapim Race vs. DT Competition vs. Wheelsmith DB14.....and why?

Thanks again

[bobscott]

Anti-seize for the nipple threads... grease for the nipple heads? And why?
Thanks
bobscott

[ergott]

Thanks for the encouragement, and advice!!

I'm probably going to go with NOS chorus or record hubs, but still considering DA. How do the DA and campy build up....either 06 or 07...?

I was thinking about Ambrosio Excellights....I like the shallow box section, it seems they are strong and durable.........any advantages of eyelets or non-eyelet rims (I was also considering Velocity Fusion, or Aerohead).

Finally...Sapim Race vs. DT Competition vs. Wheelsmith DB14.....and why?

Thanks again

Get which ever you can. They are all very high quality. I build with all three as well.

[ergott]

Anti-seize for the nipple threads... grease for the nipple heads? And why?
Thanks
bobscott

Anti-seize compound will not dry out or wash out. It takes the abuse that cars can dish out. I've had alloy nipples on wheels that I can adjust after 4+ years of wet, salty, and muddy road and cross conditions.

The grease will protect from water penetration and reduce any galling of the nipple while building. Any metal to metal needs a barrier.

[Too Tall]

Dewd! you can not go wrong Eric know his 'chit :) Since you asked I'd pick the DA if you've got a choice.

You can use blue loctite since it is a weak compound and acts as a lube during assembly..however I'd skip it for your first wheelbuild because you will make a few mistakes and dry loctite makes it more diff. to spin the nipples. Old school boiled linseed oil takes a few days to setup so may be a better choice for your first build.

Def. start with the front wheel and don't be shy about manually setting the spokes...grab the (most) parallel spokes on opposite sides with the wheel in your stand and flex em' hard!

HAHA, when I was building wheels I'd lace up one wheel / 1/2 of a football game while drinking a couple beers....I'm sure you can beat that ;)

[Jeremy]

Thanks for the encouragement, and advice!!

I'm probably going to go with NOS chorus or record hubs, but still considering DA. How do the DA and campy build up....either 06 or 07...?

I was thinking about Ambrosio Excellights....I like the shallow box section, it seems they are strong and durable.........any advantages of eyelets or non-eyelet rims (I was also considering Velocity Fusion, or Aerohead).

Finally...Sapim Race vs. DT Competition vs. Wheelsmith DB14.....and why?

Thanks again

Campy and DA are nice hubs. I assume that you have bikes with both systems so that you can build a wheels-set for either Campy or Shimano. The DA hub produces higher relative L/R tension, so it may be a little easier for your first build.

Ambrosio Excellights have a good reputation among wheel-builders. The Fusion is stiffer and stronger than the Aero-head, so it would make for an easier first time build. Non-eyeleted rims are fine. If the inside edges of the spoke holes are very sharp you can chamfer them with a dull 1/4" drill bit (don't use a new sharp one as you may damage the rim). This is not necessary, but it is nice to have a chamfered surface for the nipple. This makes everything smoother and helps to distribute the load over a larger area. Always use a good water proof grease between the nipple and the nipple bed. You should do this with eyeleted or non-eyeleted rims. This prevents the nipple from galling. You also want to lubricate the threads. This helps alot while tensioning and makes it easier to work on the wheel down the road if necessary.

Any of those spokes would be good. They are standard double butted 14 gauge spokes. For your first build you probably want to stay away from the ultra-butted spokes (XL-14, Revolution, Laser). These very thin spokes will twist alot while tensioning unless you have a tool to prevent this. I like to hold the spokes directly under the nipple to prevent any twist while tensioning, but that is difficult unless you have specific tools. The spokes that Ergott mentioned are thicker and resist twisting much better than the ultra-butted spokes.

Good luck and have fun with it.

Cheers,

Jeremy

[musgravecycles]

Jason bro,

Doooood...didn't I tell you at least 3 weeks ago to build up a shimano hub/velocity fusion wheelset with 2.0-1.8's and brass nips... ;)

[jhcakilmer]

I know, I know....... :D

[Jeremy]

Jason bro,

Doooood...didn't I tell you at least 3 weeks ago to build up a shimano hub/velocity fusion wheelset with 2.0-1.8's and brass nips... ;)

Can't go wrong with that build. Great first wheel!

Cheers,

Jeremy

[bobscott]

Thanks to ergott for the response on nipple treatments.
Inquiring minds want to know, why grease over antiseize on the nipple heads?
Thanks,
bobscott

[ergott]

Thanks to ergott for the response on nipple treatments.
Inquiring minds want to know, why grease over antiseize on the nipple heads?
Thanks,
bobscott

That mess would get everywhere and it doesn't clean up very easily. Grease is sufficient.

[stevep]

build the front wheel first.

[weisan]

Make your first wheels you build last the longest.

Ultegra hubs (Record if you own Campy, sorry no more Chorus except NOS)
Velocity, Mavic, DT or IRD rims.
Sapim Race, DT Competition or Wheelsmith DB 14 spokes (they're all good)
brass nipples
32 spokes 3 cross all around

It's really basic, but its a formula that has worked for over a century. If you plan on building more than one set of wheels in the future here are some tools I recommend that aren't too expensive.

Park tensiometer (decent accuracy)
Wheelsmith rim rods (the only way to get a good ERD is to measure yourself).
Dish tool
Good spoke wrench (Spokey is good and cheap)
antiseize compound
grease
truing stand (an upside-down bike can work)

To get consistent results, get the components together and measure them. Don't get the spokes until you have all the measurements and have plugged them into a calculator (www.dtswiss.com has a great one). I have seen ERD (effective rim diameter) numbers supplied from the manufacturer that have been off by enough to have the wrong length spokes. Nothing is worse than building a set of wheels and finding out you have the wrong length 3/4 into the build.

Building them right does more to making wheels that last more than buying the best components.

Get the books mentioned above (Sheldon's site is also a must read) and set aside plenty of time. To plan on finishing 2 wheels in one night. Concentrate on one wheel and the front is a good place to start. Patience is your best tool. Post your results. You will be fine.

As I was gearing up for my first build, I went back and re-read Ergott pal's post. He shares his knowledge freely, keeps no secrets. :hello:

[Scooper]

I've found the e-book The Professional Guide to Wheel Building (http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php) by Roger Musson to be a great step-by-step tutorial. I've built a half dozen wheelsets so far, and this downloadable e-book (pdf) for ~$15 has answered every question. It's profusely illustrated and very readable.

I've no connection with the author other than that of a very satisfied customer.

[ergott]

Wow, almost 9 years ago! Not much has changed, just a couple of names on the list.

Nice work digging!

:beer:

[Scooper]

Wow, almost 9 years ago! Not much has changed, just a couple of names on the list.

Nice work digging!

:beer:

Oops! Missed that it was a zombie. :o

[weisan]

I just ordered the Spokes from Dan's Comp...cheap cheap cheap!

Did I already say they were really cheap?!

:D

If all the stars align, I will be having some fun building two wheels during Thanksgiving, at least on one of the off days...

Wheel #1
Rim: 28h Pacenti SL23 (new version)
Hub: DT 350
Spokes: Sapim 14g
Nipples: Brass
Pattern: 3X

Wheel #2
Rim: 32h Pacenti SL23 (new version)
Hub: Shimano 6800
Spokes: Sapim 14g
Nipples: Brass
Pattern: 3X

I couldn't find my Jobst book.

Online resources:
Sheldon Brown
Mike Tech Info
Roger Musson

Virtual Coach/Lifeline
OldPotatoe
Austex
"Michael"

:hello:

[oldpotatoe]

I just ordered the Spokes from Dan's Comp...cheap cheap cheap!

Did I already say they were really cheap?!

:D

If all the stars align, I will be having some fun building two wheels during Thanksgiving, at least on one of the off days...

Wheel #1
Rim: 28h Pacenti SL23 (new version)
Hub: DT 350
Spokes: Sapim 14g
Nipples: Brass
Pattern: 3X

Wheel #2
Rim: 32h Pacenti SL23 (new version)
Hub: Shimano 6800
Spokes: Sapim 14g
Nipples: Brass
Pattern: 3X

I couldn't find my Jobst book.

Online resources:
Sheldon Brown
Mike Tech Info
Roger Musson

Virtual Coach/Lifeline
OldPotatoe
Austex
"Michael"

:hello:

Is the DT350 front or rear? Since ya already got the spokes..if front, really should do 2 cross but 3 cross won't hurt anything.

AND next time, may ask..double butts make for a more reliable wheel than straight gauge BUT straight gauge will work as well. Yes, Dan's Comp are cheap..$.40 for Race spokes..

[weisan]

Is the DT350 front or rear? Since ya already got the spokes..if front, really should do 2 cross but 3 cross won't hurt anything.

AND next time, may ask..double butts make for a more reliable wheel than straight gauge BUT straight gauge will work as well. Yes, Dan's Comp are cheap..$.40 for Race spokes..

Thank you master. Both sets are rear wheels. I have got some practice with building a front wheel already. I got tons of quality front wheels...would love to have a few more wide rim rears. And I don't mind mix-matching rims. :)
http://alicehui.com/pics/Taylor/img/taylor7.jpg

I was just kicking myself about this. I was planning all along to do the race spokes/db but when I got on the phone, I totally forgot...and when they sent me an email notification to tell me the stuff is shipped (credit to Dans Comp, they shipped the same day), that's when I realized my mistake. Oh well, next time, yes?

[dsimon]

Im 5'10 and well about 225 on a good day and I have H-plus Son archtype to WI T-11 28 hole front and rear 2x and i belive 14g spokes and I am so happy with them.

[oldpotatoe]

Once upon a time, long, long ago, double butted spokes were the things of magicians and skeptics and ALL wheels were built with 14 or 15g straight spokes and for decades and decades, these worked just fine.

Yes, double butts, in the 'grand scheme of things', whatever that is, make for a 'more durable' wheel but again, many, many wheels still built with modern, straight gauge spokes that see wheel lives measured in years, sometimes decades.

I just built a wheelset with Sapim Strong spokes. Which are essentially straight gauge with a 2.3mm butt at the elbow. REALLY nice spokes, not expensive either. If the spoke hole on the hub is big enough, great choice for 'heavier' riders.

So much mystique about 'butted spokes'. BUT I have built with a $25 hub, $35 rim and 32 or 36 straight gauge spokes and the wheel is fine for it's purpose, thanks.

BUT for the OP..lace inside pulling if doing 28 and 3 cross. Minimizes bend of pulling spoke over flange.

[weisan]

yessir!

[weisan]

one more question: is washer needed for this build?

[oldpotatoe]

one more question: is washer needed for this build?

Washers under the nipple at the rim? Kirk says no for v2...

[weisan]

Washers under the nipple at the rim? Kirk says no for v2...

OK...I could have sworn that I heard him said "yes" on the phone...but that was several months ago, I could have remembered incorrectly. The way he put it was, not necessary but recommended.

[weisan]

Wheel #2 all laced ready for some fun on the truing stand.
32h Pacenti 105 hub straight gauge 14g brass

http://alicehui.com/bike/wheel/31247-1.jpg

[AngryScientist]

looking good so far!

[weisan]

looking good so far!

Thank you angry pal for your encouragement... I am following Roger Musson's online wheel building book which I think it's just a tab easier to read and follow than Sheldon's. But Roger "requires" that I dismantle the whole thing after I completed the first time of lacing and do it again on my own without instructions...blindfolded!

So... that's what I am gonna do when i come back after a short break. :rolleyes:

[AngryScientist]

Ha!

I actually built my first set of wheels before completing my first D2R2, so it was a good test of their integrity. Happy to report no issues. I've built myself several sets since then, and rather enjoy the process. Put some good music on, pour a good drink and relax with a soothing, repetitious mechanical activity. bueno!

[weisan]

Yessir... There's no better proving ground than d2r2... If it fails, it will fail spectacularly :D

Good job there, scientist pal.

Anyone wants to share a lifetime supply of boiled linseed oil with me?

[AngryScientist]

i only boil my own.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03156/boris-karloff-lab-_3156702b.jpg

[Formulasaab]

i only boil my own.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03156/boris-karloff-lab-_3156702b.jpg

Until I saw him at D2R2, this is exactly how I imagined AngryScientist.

[weisan]

Angry pal, I like your meth lab setup...

In my entire arsenal of wheel building tools (spoke wrench, tensiometer, dish, truing stand), this by far is the most useful and esteemed above all else...:D

[weisan]

http://alicehui.com/bike/wheel/31271-1.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/wheel/IMG_4893_1_x650.jpg

First "rear" build completed.
Pacenti SL23 (new version) 32h
Shimano 5800 hub
Sapim Straight 14g
Brass nipple

-------------------------------------

Reflections:

- Make small...incremental changes, check again.
- Strive for equal tension same side
- Keep stress-relieving spokes throughout
- Break it down "section by section" and tackle one at a time
- Take your time, don't rush, come back to it, be patient
- Better to do it right...slowly, then to mess things up in a rush and spend more time fixing later
- Choose quality rim to build
- Get good coach/mentor (OldPotatoe, ergott, Peter P)

I followed Roger Musson's book and it was really easy. (www.wheelpro.co.uk)

Found this quote from his book to be very true:

"The rim is flat and round to start with and by tightening all the spokes equally it will remain flat and round with the hub central in the wheel and with all the spokes at a similar tension, and if we get our spoke lengths correct then the dish will be very close too. Then all that is required is a bit of fine tuning to finish the wheel."

Lastly....it's really not that hard, if you are thinking about it, you should definitely go for it! :D

[oldpotatoe]

http://alicehui.com/bike/wheel/31271-1.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/wheel/IMG_4893_1_x650.jpg

First "rear" build completed.
Pacenti SL23 (new version) 32h
Shimano 5800 hub
Sapim Straight 14g
Brass nipple

-------------------------------------

Reflections:

- Make small...incremental changes, check again.
- Strive for equal tension same side
- Keep stress-relieving spokes throughout
- Break it down "section by section" and tackle one at a time
- Take your time, don't rush, come back to it, be patient
- Better to do it right...slowly, then to mess things up in a rush and spend more time fixing later
- Choose quality rim to build
- Get good coach/mentor (OldPotatoe, ergott, Peter P)

I followed Roger Musson's book and it was really easy. (www.wheelpro.co.uk)

Found this quote from his book to be very true:

"The rim is flat and round to start with and by tightening all the spokes equally it will remain flat and round with the hub central in the wheel and with all the spokes at a similar tension, and if we get our spoke lengths correct then the dish will be very close too. Then all that is required is a bit of fine tuning to finish the wheel."

Lastly....it's really not that hard, if you are thinking about it, you should definitely go for it! :D

Good for you. Those of us that build a lot of wheels started this way too. One at a time, our own first.

Way correct..on a high end rim, that's flat and round, all you are really doing is 'centering the hub'.

Now, after a while, to test your mettle with wheelbuilding..use an old hub, used, light, tubular rim(like Fiamme Yellow-DOH), thin spokes and not enough of them..

[weisan]

Thank you old-pal. For those of you who are not aware, old pal has been mentoring me behind the scenes...

I am excited and ready for more...I really enjoy the whole process.

So I got one more build (28h) that I want to complete in the next few days.

But I am already shopping for rims to take advantage of some of the online sales that are going on. This will go on Shimano 6800 rear hub.

Which one would you pick if this is your build?

1) H Plus Son Archetype

2) HED C2

3) Pacenti (again?)

4) Others: suggestion

[oldpotatoe]

Thank you old-pal. For those of you who are not aware, old pal has been mentoring me behind the scenes...

I am excited and ready for more...I really enjoy the whole process.

So I got one more build (28h) that I want to complete in the next few days.

But I am already shopping for rims to take advantage of some of the online sales that are going on. This will go on Shimano 6800 rear hub.

Which one would you pick if this is your build?

1) H Plus Son Archetype

2) HED C2

3) Pacenti (again?)

4) Others: suggestion

I like H+Son, Pacenti, Velocity rims(A23, OC rear) and DT440(also OC rear)

My favorite is DT. Flat-est/roundest rims I have ever built.

HEDs build well, have a great rep but I don't understand why they are so expensive.

[weisan]

DT Swiss RR440 Asymmetric 700c 32h Black
Bikewagon after discount: $94

HED Belgium Series C2 700c Rim
Art's Cyclery: $105

[oldpotatoe]

DT Swiss RR440 Asymmetric 700c 32h Black
Bikewagon after discount: $94

HED Belgium Series C2 700c Rim
Art's Cyclery: $105

I would choose the DT. Swiss made precision. $94 great price...wholesale they are only about $20 less. Nothing wrong with Asian rims(H+Son excellent).

[weisan]

as always, found this excellent review from my pal 22.8/2 in another thread...

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1708252&postcount=28

I've got all three -- 440 OC's, Archetypes, and C2's -- and like 'em all. The C2's seem to be a little more durable than the Archetypes and especially on disc brake wheels I like the C2 non-machined finish better than the hard anodized Archetype, but that's an aesthetic issue. The C2's are the only rims I've not seen cratered. The older DT's seemed to be a little softer alloy and dented a little more easily, but with the newer generation like the 440 OC's, that seems to have been fixed. And now their alloy sidewalls outlast practically anything else except possibly the HED's. I do notice some difference between the narrower 440 OC's and the wider C2's, but you see it mostly when turning, sprinting, or descending because the wider rim helps stabilize the sidewall profile of the tire. If you are mostly riding straight-line training or group rides, don't expect the extra width to amount to much. On the other hand, if you really need a stronger wheel, I found I built the C2's optimally to a higher tension than what the Archetypes favored, and the 440 OC's built completely differently at a lower tension to a much more even build. If I wanted the best wheel build, it would be the 440 OC's. If I wanted the best race wheel or wheel for serious lateral stresses, it would be the C2. The Archetypes would miss out by a relatively small margin. If it came down to a much lower price, I'd buy the Archetypes, but they are the only rim where I've actually worn (on the hard anodized Archetypes) the sidewalls to where they needed replacement. That just speaks to shorter lifetime and the small potential for a failure if I weren't attentive to replacing components as needed. I'm riding a pair of Pacenti's now and liking them, but don't have enough data on them. I did ride a pair of A23's for a brief while and really didn't like them for their soft alloy and because they didn't build up anywhere near as well as the other rims discussed here.

[weisan]

DT Swiss RR440 Asymmetric 700c 32h Black
Bikewagon after discount: $94

HED Belgium Series C2 700c Rim
Art's Cyclery: $105

Corrected myself...Art's offered 10% discount, which comes up to be the same as DT - $94.

Curious to try HED, so going with that this time around...saving DT for the next build. :banana:

Oh, and I forgot to mention one other thing that I learned from this wheel building process is.....the more I understand how good quality wheels are put together, the less inclined I am to buy proprietary, boutique, lightweight or low spoke count wheels....:D

[oldpotatoe]

as always, found this excellent review from my pal 22.8/2 in another thread...

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1708252&postcount=28

Good recap and w/o beating this to death. Most recent A23 rims, IMHO, build well, straight, round, with even tension. You can tell a lot about a new rim when you build it. In that, is it 'easy', 'no issues' or is it a PITA. Older, early production A23, right after they moved production from Australia to Florida, were poor..latest gen ones(and Major Toms) built very well.

[weisan]

I would be remissed if I don't mention the part that I am most excited with, more so than a successful wheel build, is the ability to now install the tires on the newer Pacenti rim with.... Listen to this, ladies and gentlemen!...with my BARE HANDS !!!!

To be frank, I have always been a big fan of Kirk, the quality products that he brought to market, his business ethics... but the last time when I had a set of SL 23 , I was less than impressed with the tire installation process, granted many folks have chimed in with great installation technique/advice... BUT... really when it comes down to it, if you have a flat and you are in the middle of nowhere, the last thing you want to remember is the password to the secret cave "Open Sesame"... It should be a relatively uneventful AND painless activity when it comes to flat fixing and tire changing.

So, yeah, big " hi-5" to my pal Kirk for acknowledging the issue and not just fixing it, but making it even better. I don't recall that many wheels I got that i can install with bare hands, most require a lever at least near the end to give it that extra boot.

Great job, Kirk!
This coming from your lifetime fan. :D

P.S. in my excitement last night, I installed the tire first, by forgetting about the rim tape, this is what I found when i checked back in the garage early this morning. :(

[weisan]

Wheel #2 Completed:

Pacenti SL23 28h
DT 350 hub
Sapim Straight 14g spoke
Brass nipples

Again, can't reiterate enough, use quality rims, that makes the build easy breezy...: D

[oldpotatoe]

Wheel #2 Completed:

Pacenti SL23 28h
DT 350 hub
Sapim Straight 14g spoke
Brass nipples

Again, can't reiterate enough, use quality rims, that makes the build easy breezy...: D

Huzza!!

[weisan]

Bull's Eye!

:beer:

[weisan]

Huzza!!

Thank you, Master!

[weisan]

Mounted and ready to go for its first ride. :hello:

[weisan]

.

[batman1425]

When you say bobble, do you mean the tire is not completely seated and has a bulge somewhere, or the whole rim is out of true with a tire installed, but fine without?

Inflating the tire may detention the wheel slighty, which could allow it to go out of true, but only if the tension is low to start with.

[weisan]

ok, I am totally confused now.

Scenario #1:
Pacenti 32h - brand new CG Pave 27 - ride ok
Pacenti 28h - "old" CG Pave 27 - ride not ok, bobbles up and down.

Scenerio #2:
Pacenti 28h - old Continental 4000s II - ok
Pacenti 28h - brand new CG pave 27 - ok

Scenerio #3:
Pacenti 32h - old CG Pave 27 - NOT OK - bobbles up and down

Here's the part that I don't understand.

This "old" CG pave 27 had about 500 miles on it. I have ridden it in Ft Davis for 75miles and came home rode for another 5-6 rides, ALL using a non-pacenti wheelset and it's been fine the whole time.

Now, I mounted it on the new 28h Pacenti and it was having "bobbling" issues.

At first I thought it was the wheel. So I tried it on the 32h Pacenti, it was having the same issue.

The question is: why wasn't the old pave 27 giving me issue prior to mounting them on the Pacentis???

[weisan]

When you say bobble, do you mean the tire is not completely seated and has a bulge somewhere, or the whole rim is out of true with a tire installed, but fine without?

Inflating the tire may detention the wheel slighty, which could allow it to go out of true, but only if the tension is low to start with.

bat pal, this: the tire is not completely seated and has a bulge somewhere.

[batman1425]

Sounds like a cut in the threads somewhere making a bulge.

Could be that you just didn't notice it till the move, or perhaps there was a small damaged spot that was made worse by the removal and installation from one wheel to another?

I'd inspect the spot of the bobble closely for damage.

I had this happen once with an older set of continental tires. The rubber around the bead was getting beat up from installation and removal and peeled off in a few spots. After that, whenever I mounted it up, the bead wouldn't sit right in those areas and it would present as a wobble or bulge. I ended up just tossing it. Not worth a broken collar bone or dental work from a crash.

[Hindmost]

Now, after a while, to test your mettle with wheelbuilding..use an old hub, used, light, tubular rim(like Fiamme Yellow-DOH), thin spokes and not enough of them..

Funny, I had been reading this thread backwards, saw the praises for flat, round, hard rims, and was thinking something exactly like this. In the bad-old-days you could chase around rim wobbles trying to true the rim flat, and round. Good luck with even spoke tensions.

Once finished, you could then take a hammer to the rim joint to flatten it and eliminate brake pulsing.

[weisan]

physical inspection checks out fine. I installed it on another wheel (Shimano RS80), in fact, it was the original wheel that I took it off to mount on the Pacenti in the first place...and even there, it looks fine....hmmm...which leads me to believe that it wasn't seated properly on the Pacenti...but why? I didn't do anything special when it comes to installing on the RS80?

[weisan]

>>Now, after a while, to test your mettle with wheelbuilding..use an old hub, used, light, tubular rim(like Fiamme Yellow-DOH), thin spokes and not enough of them..

Old pal, I think I may already have one in the garage...is the set of old tubular wheels that came with the old steel Bianchi that I bought to do a 650b conversion two years ago. It's been sitting there in the corner. After you mentioned it, I picked the front wheel up between the spokes to examine and just doing that I broke a spoke, very brittle. The tubs on it are already flaking and breaking apart, even the QR is old-school skewer, I can only imagine how old it is...but other than the spokes. the rim seems in fairly good condition.

The label says, Sun Mistral...and it has a warning sticker that says. For Race Use Only. :D

http://alicehui.com/bike/wheel/31446-1.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/wheel/31443-1.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/wheel/31442-1.jpg

[weisan]

Took my Pacenti 32h rear wheel out for our group ride this morning, covered about 64 miles, went through several cattleguards, and came down hard at speed towards a couple of dry low-water crossings...came home, rechecked everything - ALL GOOD. :p

Other than the advice I had been getting from old pal and using Roger Musson book - the other thing I would say is - de-stressing the spokes and doing it often and throughout the whole build has helped set things in place. If anything, I think I over-did it....but like Roger said, de-stressing is something you can't do too much...better to find out that things have shifted during the build rather than during the ride.

As it turned out, he's RIGHT!

[weisan]

This is what I was envisioning at the beginning of this build process... and now it's fully realized.

Pacenti SL 23 32h + Bruce Gordon Rock nRoad 43mm

[weisan]

Bummer!

Discovered that Pacenti + Rock n Road won't fit between my Merlin Ti Cyclocross bike chainstays...To Bruce Gordon's credit, he posted the exact dimensions and the allowance needed on his website, I was so confident that it will work on my Merlin that I didn't even bother to measure...:rolleyes:

http://alicehui.com/bike/misc/31481-1.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/misc/31482-1.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/misc/31486-1.jpg

[weisan]

HED C2 32h + Shimano 6800 11 sp hub + Sapim DB or race

$95 + $55 + $20 = $170
Labor + Time = priceless ( I mean, the fun and the satisfaction that I get out of it)

http://alicehui.com/bike/wheel/HED_C2.jpg

[ergott]

Nice work! That should be a trouble free wheels for a long time.

:beer:

[weisan]

Nice work! That should be a trouble free wheels for a long time.

:beer:

Yes sir! Between the HED and the 2 Pacentis that I already built, I got some quality hoops to last me a while. But now the problem is I am addicted to wheel building, what should I do??? Start building for friends and family? :D

Thanks again to you and Old pal for being my wheel-building mentors...I am indebted to y'all. :banana:

[oldpotatoe]

Very sweet sir, yup, now you are hooked. Of the bike 'things' I do, I enjoy wheelbuilding the most.

$55 6800 rear hub-huzza!!! where didja find that?

[weisan]

$55 6800 rear hub-huzza!!! where didja find that?

I got lucky:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/131651196086

[crashnburn]

Yes sir! Between the HED and the 2 Pacentis that I already built, I got some quality hoops to last me a while. But now the problem is I am addicted to wheel building, what should I do??? Start building for friends and family? :D

Thanks again to you and Old pal for being my wheel-building mentors...I am indebted to y'all. :banana:

Enjoyed reading your wheel building stories and the advices of old potatoe, Ergott and the others.

I am also addicted to wheel building and have a few new ones to build this winter break.
Disassembled 2 old disc wheels i had around also to make them a bit lighter.

My wife calls it my zen moment nowadays.:)

[weisan]

My wife calls it my zen moment nowadays.:)

crash pal, funny you should mention about dismantling old wheels...I caught myself scanning around my garage and looking at some old pre-built wheels and thinking about stripping them down and re-building them up just for the heck of it...I can almost hear them screamin''....no, not me, pick her...please sir, spare us... bwaaahaaaa bwahhaaa...that's my goblin side coming out.

Zen indeed!

http://www.zen-attitude-nyon.ch/_assets/000/050/002/303/82cff5e029c4407f9a0ac9affe1499b3.jpg

[crashnburn]

crash pal, funny you should mention about dismantling old wheels...I caught myself scanning around my garage and looking at some old pre-built wheels and thinking about stripping them down and re-building them up just for the heck of it...I can almost hear them screamin''....no, not me, pick her...please sir, spare us... bwaaahaaaa bwahhaaa...that's my goblin side coming out.

Zen indeed!


Hahaha!
:help:

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=weisan;1879357]crash pal, funny you should mention about dismantling old wheels...I caught myself scanning around my garage and looking at some old pre-built wheels and thinking about stripping them down and re-building them up just for the heck of it...I can almost hear them screamin''....no, not me, pick her...please sir, spare us... bwaaahaaaa bwahhaaa...that's my goblin side coming out.

Zen indeed!

The place for prebuilt wheels.

[weisan]

Just finished another build this morning. Needed a disc rear wheel so went ahead and cannibalized one of the rims off a pre-built. Getting better at it too, starting from lacing to complete balanced and trued takes about 2.5 hrs. Pardon the mismatching nipple, trying to use what I have instead of ordering more. The spokes actually came "used" from Yellow Bike Project, found them bundled up with a rubble band, all 285mm, paid close to nuthin' for them. According Spoke Calc, Left spoke length: 286.3, Right spoke length: 285.4, decided that they are close enough so use the same length (285) for both sides, worked out fine. :D

H Plus Son Archetype 32h + Shimano M525A Disc Hub

http://alicehui.com/bike/wheel/31654-1.jpg

[weisan]

Getting my next "build" ready...I am addicted, I am tellin' you!

:D

[oldpotatoe]

Getting my next "build" ready...I am addicted, I am tellin' you!

:D

Go to your local hardware and get some of these. Right one for lindseed oil, left for Mobil One.

[weisan]

Go to your local hardware and get some of these. Right one for lindseed oil, left for Mobil One.

yessir! When I grow up, I want to be Old pal. :D

I am still a hobbyist at this point...took a bundle of the spokes, dipped them into the can and then just lay them out on the ground overnight to dry, ready for the build the next morning. As for Mobil One, I got loads of them at home since I do my own oil change. What I do is I dipped the cotton bud with M1 and then just smeared them directly over the rim holes....I know, still very primitive. :D

[kittytrail]

Oh, and I forgot to mention one other thing that I learned from this wheel building process is.....the more I understand how good quality wheels are put together, the less inclined I am to buy proprietary, boutique, lightweight or low spoke count wheels....:D

could i steal a non-exclusive digital copy of this enlightened quote from you weisan-pal? ;)

[crashnburn]

Getting my next "build" ready...I am addicted, I am tellin' you!

:D

Go Weisan! I also have 3 in queue now that I will build for those required "Zen" moments. :beer:

[weisan]

Just completed another disc-specific rear wheel this morning.
Time (improved): 1:50 hr

Rim: 32h DT Swiss 485D (discontinued): $25
Hub: Shimano Deore disc(centerlocking)

[weisan]

As they say, build in the morning, ride in the afternoon...:D

Bumped into a bunch of scouts at the park doing some kind of ceremony, not sure... A few dressed as Indians retelling a story of "grandma, eagle, bear, buffalo, arrow of life, virtues" :beer:

[weisan]

Just finished another build early morning. Got a NOS Mavic Open 4 rim for $5 at my local co-op, paid another $5 for a non-branded hub which looks a lot like the older DT Swiss Hugi and spins very smoothly, another $5 for the used spokes/nippes....$15 total, put in some elbow grease and get some more practice ...and here we are.

[weisan]

Up next, rehabilitating a set of tubulars that came with an older Bianchi which I bought two year ago to convert to a 650b commuter at work. The rims looked to be in pretty nice shape, label says Sun Mistral don't know much about them though. The front wheel had one broken spoke. I replaced it and tuned it up, it spins smooth so I am gonna keep it that way. The rear wheel needs a bit more TLC. It's an older hub which can't take 9-speed cassette so I am gonna replace it with a newer hub. Wish I could have used the DT Swiss Hugi that I got earlier at the co-op but unfortunately it's 28h rim and that Hugi is 32h. So I will be looking around for a 28h rear hub before I can start building it up.

http://velobase.com/CompImages/Rims/E02F94AE-B351-4BCB-A7D5-1E8B756DADFD.jpeg

[jwess1234]

Nice thread to follow--thanks for sharing all.

Any recommendations on a build for cx/gravel? Was thinking 11sp shimano, CLD, 12mm thru axle. Could do HED rims or maybe something along the line of that new Bontrager rim or Reynolds ATR. Any experiences/suggestions?

(cart before the horse... still need to get the bike, but would be fun to plan out/prep)

[joosttx]

Nice thread to follow--thanks for sharing all.

Any recommendations on a build for cx/gravel? Was thinking 11sp shimano, CLD, 12mm thru axle. Could do HED rims or maybe something along the line of that new Bontrager rim or Reynolds ATR. Any experiences/suggestions?

(cart before the horse... still need to get the bike, but would be fun to plan out/prep)

The HED Bels + WI are great. I had a set on my previouse non disc bike and I was very pleased. I bought another set for my new bike which was TA and disc ready so I used the CLD 12 front and 12x142 TA configuration but quickly switched them to the same hubs but laced to enve M50. The reason was I recieved a very nice promotion at work and I celebrated by buying the M50's. The M50 are a nicer wheel but they should be for the priced difference. Bottomline HED Bels are the best aluminmum rim money can buy for this sort of riding.

[weisan]

Rim: Sun Mistral Tubular
Hub: Giant generic 28h Shimano 8/9 speed

[oldpotatoe]

Rim: Sun Mistral Tubular
Hub: Giant generic 28h Shimano 8/9 speed

3 cross rear, good on ya!

[weisan]

thank you for your affirmation, old pal - my wheel Mentor. I am getting the hang of it. :D

Another recent build: with parts scrooged from the local co-op.
DT Swiss Rim Alloy 29 X470 32H Disc front $5
Shimano hub $5
Spokes $5

[weisan]

Rim: Mavic CXP33 28h
Hub Shimano 600
Pattern: 2x
Spoke: 2.0

[weisan]

All still waiting for me to order some spokes, one hub still in transit. :p

Rubbing my hands, can't wait!

Mavic CXP33 28h Xero hub - rear
Ksyrium Elite 20h FSA hub - front
Velocity Escape tubular 32h DT Swiss hub - rear
Velocity A23 24h Shimano hub - front

[oldpotatoe]

All still waiting for me to order some spokes, one hub still in transit. :p

Rubbing my hands, can't wait!

Mavic CXP33 28h Xero hub - rear
Ksyrium Elite 20h FSA hub - front
Velocity Escape tubular 32h DT Swiss hub - rear
Velocity A23 24h Shimano hub - front

How ya going to secure those thread into the rim, spokes onto that hub? Or, with j bend, secure those to the rim, need mavic tread-in nipples??

[Gummee]

Yes sir! Between the HED and the 2 Pacentis that I already built, I got some quality hoops to last me a while. But now the problem is I am addicted to wheel building, what should I do??? Start building for friends and family? :D

Thanks again to you and Old pal for being my wheel-building mentors...I am indebted to y'all. :banana:

That's how it all started for me. I've got a replacement rim for a pair of Cosmos coming, 2 Open Pro tubulars, and need a pair of 20/24 rims to go with the DT Swiss 240s in the garage...

M

[oldpotatoe]

That's how it all started for me. I've got a replacement rim for a pair of Cosmos coming, 2 Open Pro tubulars, and need a pair of 20/24 rims to go with the DT Swiss 240s in the garage...

M

Velocity rims? I can get(you can too, right?).

[Catdr]

Curious as to why there is no mention of DT 15/16/15 spokes?

[oldpotatoe]

Curious as to why there is no mention of DT 15/16/15 spokes?

Cuz they are really hard/impossible to find. I guess there are sites that sell them but overall, I think 14/15 are better 'all around'.

[Gummee]

Velocity rims? I can get(you can too, right?).

Yeah, I can get em too.

I have a pair of Cosmos that are 11sp compatible, so I'm gonna re-lace the bent rear rim with another black Mavic rim.

I'd rather have Reflex Ceramics, but I'll have to make do with the regular Open Pro tubulars (aka Reflexes)

M

[Mark McM]

Curious as to why there is no mention of DT 15/16/15 spokes?

1.8mm/1.6mm/1.8mm (15ga/16ga/15ga) spokes make sense for wheels with lots of spokes (32+). With these wheels, the lack of stiffness of individual thin spokes is made up for by having lots of spokes, and the lower average spoke tension prevents the wind-up issues that happen with super-butted (2.0/1.5/2.0) spokes.

Decades ago, most wheels were made with 32 or 36 spokes, and occasionally 40+ spokes, and 1.8/1.6/1.8 worked well with these wheels. Today, most wheels have fewer spokes (20, 24 & 28 are common), so there isn't much demand for 1.8/1.6/1.8 spokes.

[weisan]

2 down, 2 more to go...

[weisan]

How ya going to secure those thread into the rim, spokes onto that hub? Or, with j bend, secure those to the rim, need mavic tread-in nipples??

Old pal...you don't really wanna know...:D

Let me "do it" first and then show you. ;)

[weisan]

3 down, one more to go.

[oldpotatoe]

3 down, one more to go.

Ya could've done the 24h, 1 cross, all spokes head in..for grins.

Can't wait to see the ksyrium to standard hub one.

[weisan]

Can't wait to see the ksyrium to standard hub one.

Your wish is my command.

[weisan]

Next upcoming project...:D

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1227/3560/1600/New2007Wheels_12_0003.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

Your wish is my command.

So, you drilled out the integrated threaded inserts in the rim?

[weisan]

So, you drilled out the integrated threaded inserts in the rim?

No, I drilled holes from the top so I can insert nipples. And then I used stainless steel washer between nipples and the inserts to create barrier and increase strength. Managed to get the spoke tension up to 100-110 without any issue, probably can go higher but why push it. :-)

Obviously, this is a "fun test". It's more work than I like. I will doing a road test in just a bit.

[oldpotatoe]

No, I drilled holes from the top so I can insert nipples. And then I used stainless steel washer between nipples and the inserts to create barrier and increase strength. Managed to get the spoke tension up to 100-110 without any issue, probably can go higher but why push it. :-)

Obviously, this is a "fun test". It's more work than I like. I will doing a road test in just a bit.

I agree..but if the stuff was essentially free...

[weisan]

I agree..but if the stuff was essentially free...

And I want to stick it to Mavics...:banana:

[weisan]

...and in case anyone saw this and started running out to do the same, I state my usual disclaimer:

http://a5.mzstatic.com/us/r30/Music6/v4/cb/ce/b1/cbceb197-7d1a-c150-40cf-1e39244ed2c0/cover170x170.jpeg

[oldpotatoe]

And I want to stick it to Mavics...:banana:

I haven't built a wheel using mavic rims for probably 2-3 years. If somebody sends me hubs and rims, and they happen to be Mavic, I will but I won't 'sell' a mavic rim/wheel..

[weisan]

I haven't built a wheel using mavic rims for probably 2-3 years. If somebody sends me hubs and rims, and they happen to be Mavic, I will but I won't 'sell' a mavic rim/wheel..

Sure...especially since we have an abundance of other choices and options...but as you know, I get these stuff dirt cheap and it's all part of my schooling. :beer:

I am gonna get creative with this Shamal rim here...like I did with the Mavics...stick it to C.

[AngryScientist]

you're on a wheelbuilding roll W!

i've got all the makings of a new set of wheels in the basement. supposed to snow on Sunday here!! so it may be scotch drinking, wheelbuilding time!

[cachagua]

...Drilled holes from the top... stainless steel washer between nipples and the inserts... spoke tension up to 100-110 without any issue... Obviously, this is a "fun test"...


That's the spirit! Now that I don't do it professionally any more, all the wheels I build are experiments, and all are fun.

And, as you say -- then ya get to ride them. Special bonus.

[weisan]

"Honey! Can you check to make sure our dental policy is still current?" :D

All system go. Test completed. Passed. :banana:

cacha pal, thanks for your encouragement.

Angry pal, what you got in the wok?

[AngryScientist]

Angry pal, what you got in the wok?

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/3184E324C4L.jpg

Nothing too exotic.

(R)
-kinlin xr-300, silver, 32h
-hope road hub (purple !)
-wheelsmith spokes, silver (my new favorite)
-sapim locking nipples

(F)
-kinlin xr-270, silver, 32h
-record hub, black
-wheelsmith spokes, silver
-sapim locking nipples

[weisan]

Very cool!!!

Speaking of Kinlin, I just passed up on a set of XR270 and 300 rims last week...they were brand new, still in wraps, will probably cost me $5 each :D
Just felt like I don't need another set of 32h wheels at that time...:rolleyes:

As you can see, I do have a wheel "issue"... :o
And that's not counting the wheels that are already on the bikes!

why...why...why...do I ever get into wheel-building?
:help:

[oldpotatoe]

Sure...especially since we have an abundance of other choices and options...but as you know, I get these stuff dirt cheap and it's all part of my schooling. :beer:

I am gonna get creative with this Shamal rim here...like I did with the Mavics...stick it to C.

Gotta try this next..Crow's foot lacing..needs to be divisible by 3..18(9 each side), 24(12 each side), 36(18 per side)..and higher counts, overlap spokes.

[sparky33]

Is it generally easier to learn wheel building on a wheel with more spokes? Why?
Turns out I inherited a nice Park stand and tensionometer from a pal, so this could happen.

[weisan]

Is it generally easier to learn wheel building on a wheel with more spokes? Why?
Turns out I inherited a nice Park stand and tensionometer from a pal, so this could happen.

Yes.
Because you have more spokes to play with in making minor adjustments to reach final alignment.

The best advice I have received and would pass on to you or anyone thinking about getting into wheel building: Go for it, don't wait!

You will only get better with time and practice. There's no other shortcut or magical portion.

There are many books or online resources that show you step-by-step but the one I have chosen is Roger Musson's online book (PDF):
http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

[Gummee]

The best advice I have received and would pass on to you or anyone thinking about getting into wheel building: Go for it, don't wait!
this

Its not rocket science.

Get the lacing right.
Take your time and do things evenly the whole way round

Presto! Round and true wheels!

There may be more steps involved, but you get the idea

M

[weisan]

My least favorite part of the process.... :D

[Mark McM]

Very cool!!!

Speaking of Kinlin, I just passed up on a set of XR270 and 300 rims last week...they were brand new, still in wraps, will probably cost me $5 each :D
Just felt like I don't need another set of 32h wheels at that time...:rolleyes:

Don't walk away from the 32 hole XR 300 so fast. If you wanted something a little more exotic you could make a 24 spoke rear wheel in a G3 (triplet) lacing pattern by lacing it to 32 hold rear hub, and skipping every other hole on the NDS.

[Mark McM]

Gotta try this next..Crow's foot lacing..needs to be divisible by 3..18(9 each side), 24(12 each side), 36(18 per side)..and higher counts, overlap spokes.

Or you could do a 3-pushing/3-pulling pattern:

http://www.minortriad.com/wheel.jpg

[weisan]

Don't walk away from the 32 hole XR 300 so fast. If you wanted something a little more exotic you could make a 24 spoke rear wheel in a G3 (triplet) lacing pattern by lacing it to 32 hold rear hub, and skipping every other hole on the NDS.

Mark pal, thanks for the suggestion, I might try that some day but for now I am still trying to work out the Shamal. It's all drilled, prepped and ready to go on the truing stand.

[AngryScientist]

what are you going to lace it to Weisan? I assume you're going to use some big washers, as the shamals use pretty big diameter nipples?

[weisan]

what are you going to lace it to Weisan?

I dunno yet but one thing I know for sure, it's gonna be SHIMANO-COMPATIBLE right out the gate, no further modification needed. :D

The washer I used to build the Ksyrium will work here as well. I tested them.

[weisan]

Look what I found yesterday!

More "upcoming" projects...

A couple of kinlins, Velocity Deep V, Aerohead, and the "white & shiny" A23s.

[weisan]

.

[oldpotatoe]

Look what I found yesterday!

More "upcoming" projects...

A couple of kinlins, Velocity Deep V, Aerohead, and the "white & shiny" A23s.

From your CO-OP? These are new, they need to get a clue if they want to make any money.

[weisan]

From your CO-OP? These are new, they need to get a clue if they want to make any money.

These rims been sitting in the box for months, somebody has to build em'...plus I am not building these to sell, I have a mutually beneficial relationship with my co-op which I am very thankful for. :D

[weisan]

My first white horse. :D

Velocity A23 28h
Hub: Unknown

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/prydain/images/2/23/White-horse.jpeg/revision/latest?cb=20140129024747

[oldpotatoe]

These rims been sitting in the box for months, somebody has to build em'...plus I am not building these to sell, I have a mutually beneficial relationship with my co-op which I am very thankful for. :D

What I meant, the local CO-OP here is always scrounging for $ to keep operating, and having new/NOS rims would help bring in $, rather than $5 per, type thing. If you can score these for next to no $, good on ya.

[oldpotatoe]

My first white horse. :D

Velocity A23 28h
Hub: Unknown

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/prydain/images/2/23/White-horse.jpeg/revision/latest?cb=20140129024747

Nice but as you are seeing..28 and 3 cross and large flange makes for spokes overlapping adjacent spoke head.

[ergott]

Nice but as you are seeing..28 and 3 cross and large flange makes for spokes overlapping adjacent spoke head.

:confused::confused:

https://ergottwheels.smugmug.com/Cycling/Wheels/i-HCrMqCx/2/X3/Project321%20Enve01-X3.jpg

https://ergottwheels.smugmug.com/Cycling/Wheels/i-fww8kSN/0/X3/Tommys%20Birthday34-X3.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

:confused::confused:



so ya saying it never happens? confused, confused too.

[ergott]

The picture on the right is 24 3X.

The picture on the left is a tiny wheel.

It's not an issue for road bikes. I've been doing it since I started out. It conforms to the spoke count/3 formula as well.

36 4X is right on the edge of useable. There's a little overlap, but I've been able to get a spoke out if necessary.

[ergott]

Or you could do a 3-pushing/3-pulling pattern:

http://www.minortriad.com/wheel.jpg

I did this one a long time ago. Never actually used it though.

https://ergottwheels.smugmug.com/Cycling/Wheels/i-SNZTkCd/0/X3/Fiamme%20Ergal02-X3.jpg

[JAWN]

Thanks for this thread, guys. I've been wanting to jump into the wheel building and maintaining game for a while. I'm just trying to get my hands on a truing stand and I'll jump in. I'll post some results in the future (which might be a while).

[weisan]

Jawn pal, good on you, feel free to ask any question.

[weisan]

All laced up ready to go, gonna work on em' tonight!

Kinlin X300 20h FSA hub

Velocity A23 28h Ritchey hub

[weisan]

They are ready!

Velocity A23 "White" label

Building the rear was the "easiest" by far, managed to get it to full alignment in less than 1/2 hr, after than it's just bringing the tension up to spec. All but took about an hour. I wonder why.

My theory: The spoke length was dead accurate.

And what's interesting was, this time around, I completely ignore the ERD given by the online spoke calculator and uses the one I measured off the rim itself. The prowheelbuilder website says ERD=601 but I measured 605 and that's what I uses to get the "correct" spoke length, round it up to 298.

I can't tell you how many rims (almost all of them) that I have taken individual measurements actually depart from what's in the database/online source. It just goes to show the importance of doing your own measurement instead of just relying on the website.

Attached a picture of my "primitive" ERD measuring tool taken off Roger Musson's book.

[oldpotatoe]

They are ready!

Velocity A23 "White" label

Building the rear was the "easiest" by far, managed to get it to full alignment in less than 1/2 hr, after than it's just bringing the tension up to spec. All but took about an hour. I wonder why.

My theory: The spoke length was dead accurate.

And what's interesting was, this time around, I completely ignore the ERD given by the online spoke calculator and uses the one I measured off the rim itself. The prowheelbuilder website says ERD=601 but I measured 605 and that's what I uses to get the "correct" spoke length, round it up to 298.

I can't tell you how many rims (almost all of them) that I have taken individual measurements actually depart from what's in the database/online source. It just goes to show the importance of doing your own measurement instead of just relying on the website.

Attached a picture of my "primitive" ERD measuring tool taken off Roger Musson's book.

I measure 602, Velocity says 601..not sure how you got 605.

[weisan]

I measure 602, Velocity says 601..not sure how you got 605.

Hmmm.... maybe my tool is not calibrated right, I keep wondering about that. I guess I got lucky this time by getting away with a miscalculated ERD. But I was pleasantly surprised by how easy the last built was. Maybe I am getting better at it.

[oldpotatoe]

Hmmm.... maybe my tool is not calibrated right, I keep wondering about that. I guess I got lucky this time by getting away with a miscalculated ERD. But I was pleasantly surprised by how easy the last built was. Maybe I am getting better at it.

These work the best, IMHO, but I'm guessing you could make some also.

http://www.modernbike.com/product-2126177244?gclid=CLPXlNe77csCFZWMaQod94wHRg

ERD 'sources' are all over the map.

[AngryScientist]

ERD 'sources' are all over the map.

i just go by what the manufacturer says. in reality, i order spokes in even numbered lengths anyway, so nailing the exact number doesnt seem all that important. i'm just an amateur wheelbuilder though.

[oldpotatoe]

i just go by what the manufacturer says. in reality, i order spokes in even numbered lengths anyway, so nailing the exact number doesnt seem all that important. i'm just an amateur wheelbuilder though.

No doubt but the DTSwiss site has been wrong about DT440 for a long time. They say 599, it's actually 596. I emailed DT in Grand Junction..they said, yes, they know, and so does DT but........

I know 1mm doesn't mean much, spoke hole diameter and spoke cutting means + or - a MM or more anyway but it's a pet peeve of mine..If I measure 297, I want 297..why I want a Morizumi cutter/threader..but less than $2900....:eek:

[weisan]

Ready to go...

Kinlin XR300 front 20h
FSA hub (this came from eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/371263620432) and they are so smooth, I like them so much that I bought 3 in a row...)

[weisan]

I got one front tubular wheel to build and I think I am done....at least for a couple of weeks, wanna take a break. :D

So...it's either Kinlin TB25 28h or Velocity Major Tom 32h.

Vittoria Elite is going on these tubs. Currently stretching on the rims

[oldpotatoe]

I got one front tubular wheel to build and I think I am done....at least for a couple of weeks, wanna take a break. :D

So...it's either Kinlin TB25 28h or Velocity Major Tom 32h.

Vittoria Elite is going on these tubs. Currently stretching on the rims

MajorTom is REALLY wide. Deals with cross tubies really well and yes, you can put a 25mm Vittoria on it but it gets kinda lost. I think it's a better rim than the Kinlin but the 25 Vittoria may be happier on it.

[weisan]

MajorTom is REALLY wide. Deals with cross tubies really well and yes, you can put a 25mm Vittoria on it but it gets kinda lost. I think it's a better rim than the Kinlin but the 25 Vittoria may be happier on it.

thank you old pal, that's what I want to know, thanks for always being there for me.

[weisan]

How can you tell one rim is of higher quality than the other?

What are the indicators?

[weisan]

Built and ready to glue some tubies....in the meantime, forget dryer, use the natural source of heat: SUN.

[weisan]

And now, we wait.

[oldpotatoe]

How can you tell one rim is of higher quality than the other?

What are the indicators?

You can a lot about a rim when you build it. When it seems all you are doing is centering the hub, build goes really fast with really even tension, great rim. When it seems to fight you, takes forever and any sort of stress, trying to take spoke windup out and it goes to hell....plus ya futz with it and the tension is all over the map, probably soft or poorly made rim.

But remember, ride=stays true, is the test.

[weisan]

Thank you Old pal, I guess I have been pampered so far, using mostly high-quality rims and the build went relatively easy without any hitch.

Velocity A23
H Plus Son Archetype
Pacenti SL23
HED C2 Belgium

Yep...all passed the test so far.

[Black Dog]

Thank you Old pal, I guess I have been pampered so far, using mostly high-quality rims and the build went relatively easy without any hitch.

Velocity A23
H Plus Son Archetype
Pacenti SL23
HED C2 Belgium

Yep...all passed the test so far.

Those are all rims that build up well. Add DT to that list and it will be complete.

[oldpotatoe]

Thank you Old pal, I guess I have been pampered so far, using mostly high-quality rims and the build went relatively easy without any hitch.

Velocity A23
H Plus Son Archetype
Pacenti SL23
HED C2 Belgium

Yep...all passed the test so far.

Ya need to go toe to toe with a Sun or Fiamme rim..maybe a used one..if ya can make that true/round/dished/tensioned..and it stays that way, you can build anything. As has been mentioned, DT..really excellent rims.

[OperaLover]

Just laced up a set of Campy Victory Strada tubulars to Miche Race hubs, 11-speed, 36 H, using DT Comp DB spokes, 3X, alloy nips in the front and brass in the rear.

Is there an ideal ternsion I should be going for? I've built and tensioned wheels before, but always went by feel, or plucking. I just got a Park TM-1 so I want to do these right. Any suggestions?

Thank you!

[oldpotatoe]

Just laced up a set of Campy Victory Strada tubulars to Miche Race hubs, 11-speed, 36 H, using DT Comp DB spokes, 3X, alloy nips in the front and brass in the rear.

Is there an ideal tension I should be going for? I've built and tensioned wheels before, but always went by feel, or plucking. I just got a Park TM-1 so I want to do these right. Any suggestions?

Thank you!

100 kgf..right side rear and front.

[OperaLover]

Thank you, OP! I'll post photos when I am done. I'm having alot of fun building these wheels.

[weisan]

Ya need to go toe to toe with a Sun or Fiamme rim..maybe a used one..if ya can make that true/round/dished/tensioned..and it stays that way, you can build anything. As has been mentioned, DT..really excellent rims.

I have done a few of those, certainly make me appreciate the ones that come straight and round without much adjustment.

[Mark McM]

Just laced up a set of Campy Victory Strada tubulars to Miche Race hubs, 11-speed, 36 H, using DT Comp DB spokes, 3X, alloy nips in the front and brass in the rear.

Is there an ideal ternsion I should be going for? I've built and tensioned wheels before, but always went by feel, or plucking. I just got a Park TM-1 so I want to do these right. Any suggestions?

Thank you!

Just laced up a set of Campy Victory Strada tubulars to Miche Race hubs, 11-speed, 36 H, using DT Comp DB spokes, 3X, alloy nips in the front and brass in the rear.

Is there an ideal ternsion I should be going for? I've built and tensioned wheels before, but always went by feel, or plucking. I just got a Park TM-1 so I want to do these right. Any suggestions?

Thank you!

There are multiple variables that determine the optimum spoke tension - there's no single tension value that will work with all wheels. For wheels with heary rims and a low number of spokes, the tension limit can sometimes be the strength of the rim's spoke bed, or more often, and especially if thing spokes are used, it is the torsional strength of the spokes (the spokes can only bear so much twisting force). For wheels with lightweight rims and a large number of spokes, the tension limit will be the circumferential compression strength of the rim.

The spokes all pull radial inward on the rim, basically trying to shrink the diameter of the rim. When the forces from all the spokes are combined, there can be a very large circumferntial compression load on the rim (often more than 1000 lb.) If the spoke tensions are too high, it can cause the rim to be prone to buckling (when a rim buckles, it can assume the classic "potato chip" shape). The lighter and shallower the rim, the less circumferential compression force it can bear.

I have found that a good limit for spoke tension for aluminum rims with 28 or more spokes to be:

T = C x W / N

where:

T = spoke tension in Kgf

W = weight of the rim in grams

N = number of spokes

C = Rim strength constant, which for aluminum rims typically has a value in the range of 8 to 9 Kgf-spokes/gram.

From Velobase, the weight of Campagnolo Victory Strada (http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=fd75f747-fb9b-4fc3-839c-3d4499e6e29f&Enum=107) rims is 370 grams. Using a a value of 8.5 for C, the recommended average tension would be:

T = (8.5 kgf-spokes/gram) x (370 grams) / (36 spokes) = 87 kgf

For rear wheels, the recommended tension will be the average of the (high tension) right and (low tension) left spokes, so depending on flange offsets, you might end up with tensions something like 105 kgf right/ 65 kgf left, which isn't much different from Peter's recommendation. But 100 kgf average tension will be too high for the front wheel, and a value closer to 87 kgf would be recommended.

[oldpotatoe]

There are multiple variables that determine the optimum spoke tension - there's no single tension value that will work with all wheels. For wheels with heary rims and a low number of spokes, the tension limit can sometimes be the strength of the rim's spoke bed, or more often, and especially if thing spokes are used, it is the torsional strength of the spokes (the spokes can only bear so much twisting force). For wheels with lightweight rims and a large number of spokes, the tension limit will be the circumferential compression strength of the rim.

The spokes all pull radial inward on the rim, basically trying to shrink the diameter of the rim. When the forces from all the spokes are combined, there can be a very large circumferntial compression load on the rim (often more than 1000 lb.) If the spoke tensions are too high, it can cause the rim to be prone to buckling (when a rim buckles, it can assume the classic "potato chip" shape). The lighter and shallower the rim, the less circumferential compression force it can bear.

I have found that a good limit for spoke tension for aluminum rims with 28 or more spokes to be:

T = C x W / N

where:

T = spoke tension in Kgf

W = weight of the rim in grams

N = number of spokes

C = Rim strength constant, which for aluminum rims typically has a value in the range of 8 to 9 Kgf-spokes/gram.

From Velobase, the weight of Campagnolo Victory Strada (http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=fd75f747-fb9b-4fc3-839c-3d4499e6e29f&Enum=107) rims is 370 grams. Using a a value of 8.5 for C, the recommended average tension would be:

T = (8.5 kgf-spokes/gram) x (370 grams) / (36 spokes) = 87 kgf

For rear wheels, the recommended tension will be the average of the (high tension) right and (low tension) left spokes, so depending on flange offsets, you might end up with tensions something like 105 kgf right/ 65 kgf left, which isn't much different from Peter's recommendation. But 100 kgf average tension will be too high for the front wheel, and a value closer to 87 kgf would be recommended.

Very impressive but he isn't going to 'see' 87 or 86 or 89 on that tension tool.
Plus, knowing those rims, the tension is going to be + or - a fair amount also.
If it were me, I'd still shoot for 100 kgf(on my DT dial tension meter, 1.83 reading on the dial)..assuming it would be 'around' that but certainly no higher, as these 'can' pull eyelets out.

[weisan]

Master wheelbuilders in the house!

Mark, Old, Ergott pals...

We are so lucky!

[AngryScientist]

Very impressive but he isn't going to 'see' 87 or 86 or 89 on that tension tool.
.

yea exactly. that math is cool and all, but the meter is about accurate to increments of 10 or so.

for rear wheels, shoot for 100 on the drive side. dont be afraid to go a little bit higher, the non-drive side - dont focus on the tension numerical value - whatever it is, it is to dish the wheel correctly, but aim for [relatively] even tension on all nds and ds spokes. front - shoot for even tension on all spokes.

[oldpotatoe]

yea exactly. that math is cool and all, but the meter is about accurate to increments of 10 or so.

for rear wheels, shoot for 100 on the drive side. dont be afraid to go a little bit higher, the non-drive side - dont focus on the tension numerical value - whatever it is, it is to dish the wheel correctly, but aim for [relatively] even tension on all nds and ds spokes. front - shoot for even tension on all spokes.

What POed-high-tech-guy said!!!

[Mark McM]

Very impressive but he isn't going to 'see' 87 or 86 or 89 on that tension tool.
Plus, knowing those rims, the tension is going to be + or - a fair amount also.
If it were me, I'd still shoot for 100 kgf(on my DT dial tension meter, 1.83 reading on the dial)..assuming it would be 'around' that but certainly no higher, as these 'can' pull eyelets out.

The formula is just to give a ball-park number. The Rim Strength Constant C will vary from rim to rim, depending mostly on the alloy and temper, but also a little on the cross-sectional shape. So, as you say, there will be some variation from one rim to the next.

However, what the formula does illustrate is some of the factors that go into finding the optimum tension. For example, the 28 spoke GEL280 wheel recently discussed in a different thread might be okay with an average tension of 100 kgf. But if that model of rim with 40 spokes were used, 100 kgf average tension would likely result in buckling the rim before it even left the truing stand. If instead the 28 spoke rim were built with a Velocity A23 (450 grams), it could (and should) use a higher tension, perhaps 130 kgf or even more.

In fact here's what http://www.velocityusa.com/tech/rims/ says:

We recommend building to spoke tension between 110kgf and 130kgf. Each rim may behave a bit differently; the mark of an excellent wheel builder is the ability to find the highest tension a rim will allow while maintaining its radial and lateral true.

Because their Deep V rims are so strong, I've built 18 and 20 spoke versions of these rims with closer to 150 kgf. If you think that tension sounds high, look at the chart or recommended spoke tensions on the Park Tool web site (http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/#article-section-6), which lists recommended tensions up to 181 kgf.

[weisan]

Just finished another "modified" Ksyrium SL.

[ergott]

Have you weighed those rims?

[weisan]

Have you weighed those rims?

No... Why?

Is the SL part of the label stupid?

I have built two modified Ksyriums so far, one labeled as Elite, the other SL. Both are in fact the same rim.

[Mark McM]

No... Why?

Is the SL part of the label stupid?

I have built two modified Ksyriums so far, one labeled as Elite, the other SL. Both are in fact the same rim.

Frequently, the difference in the "standard" and "lightweight" versions of wheel is that the "lightweight" version uses lighter hubs.

It is difficult to reduce rim weight while maintaining stiffness/strength/durability.

[AngryScientist]

I have built two modified Ksyriums so far, one labeled as Elite, the other SL. Both are in fact the same rim.

you should make up some "WL" labels - "weisan lite" :hello:

[ergott]

No... Why?

Is the SL part of the label stupid?

I have built two modified Ksyriums so far, one labeled as Elite, the other SL. Both are in fact the same rim.

Nope, just curious.

[m_sasso]

Inquiring minds would like to know after building all these wheels how are you applying your rim tape. Over lap facing forward or facing back ward, does it make a difference? Diagonal cut to the tape or straight cut?

Thanks!

[AngryScientist]

new do it all wheelset complete. these AC hubs picked up from snowcrash here are pretty nice!

https://scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/19533969_219389385248685_6738463560373895168_n.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FnpVukm9POE/WV5ju6bvr9I/AAAAAAAAC2A/aQ_zJu7uiZ4incSkM2NGqGAK_kW82BOPQCLcBGAs/s1140/IMG_0965.JPG

https://scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/19932177_151112388791753_8433802811279409152_n.jpg

[R3awak3n]

Nice Nick! I am with you, those are still some of my favorite rims. I wish they updated them to tubeless.... but keep everything the same.

[weisan]

Time to build a couple more wheels before I get rusty from lack of practice.

[oldpotatoe]

Time to build a couple more wheels before I get rusty from lack of practice.

Who do you get your spokes from?

[weisan]

Who do you get your spokes from?

The recycle bin at YBP (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjys5SaxunWAhVpqVQKHey4CJkQFggpMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Faustinyellowbike.org%2F&usg=AOvVaw2WfRuObQ-bH7j11k_WLhZy), which I have done for all the past builds, including the hubs.

[pavel]

When building a wheel and following the recommended spoke tension, are you looking for average or individual spoke tension? Velocity recommends 110-130. I am working on a 3x sapim race 26" aeroheat wheel for a tandem,and my readings are fairly consistently 21-22 on the park tension meter. But, there are a few outliers that are showing 23 and 24(maybe 4) and fewer (maybe 2) that are showing 20. I think I'm ok with the average tension being on the high side since this will be a tandem wheel, but should be concerned about the outliers since 24 on a 1.7mm spoke is 150kgf per the park chart? At this point the wheel is dished, round and pretty true.

[oldpotatoe]

When building a wheel and following the recommended spoke tension, are you looking for average or individual spoke tension? Velocity recommends 110-130. I am working on a 3x sapim race 26" aeroheat wheel for a tandem,and my readings are fairly consistently 21-22 on the park tension meter. But, there are a few outliers that are showing 23 and 24(maybe 4) and fewer (maybe 2) that are showing 20. I think I'm ok with the average tension being on the high side since this will be a tandem wheel, but should be concerned about the outliers since 24 on a 1.7mm spoke is 150kgf per the park chart? At this point the wheel is dished, round and pretty true.

Not familiar with the Park gauge but does '23-24' and '20' still put the tension in the 110130 kgf range? Is the rim new? Race spokes are 1.8mm center section(the section to measure), not 1.7..ahh, see 24 is 150 kgf..reduce that spoke and raise the two on either side of that spoke on the other side..to keep dish..

[SleepyCyclist]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181031/a2692122367cf724e24d44a1de18ffd7.jpg

Great information in this thread.

Ready to try my first build:
Campy 32h hubs
Mavic reflex rims (from unused donor wheel set)

Need to measure actual ERD - will use the spoke method from the park website.

Planning for double butted spokes and brass nipples.

Qs:
Good online source for spokes?
Spoke/Nipple brand make any difference?
Spoke/Nipple prep? Confused by all the opinions (boiled linseed, gear or motor oil, specific prep compounds, etc)
Pattern recommended for front and rear?

tia, M

[Mark McM]

[IMG]Mavic reflex rims (from unused donor wheel set)

Are these Reflex clincher or tubular rims? The Reflex clincher rim did not have a good reputation for durability - they often cracked at the spoke holes. Mavic stopped making them after two years, likely due to this issue, and replaced them with the Open Pro (which has proven more durable).

[SleepyCyclist]

Are these Reflex clincher or tubular rims? The Reflex clincher rim did not have a good reputation for durability - they often cracked at the spoke holes. Mavic stopped making them after two years, likely due to this issue, and replaced them with the Open Pro (which has proven more durable).

Yes, they are reflex clinchers.

Never had a problem with this set - I'll do a more careful inspection for cracks.

[Hindmost]

[IMG]
Great information in this thread.

Ready to try my first build:
Campy 32h hubs
Mavic reflex rims (from unused donor wheel set)

Need to measure actual ERD - will use the spoke method from the park website.

Planning for double butted spokes and brass nipples.

Qs:
Good online source for spokes?
Spoke/Nipple brand make any difference?
Spoke/Nipple prep? Confused by all the opinions (boiled linseed, gear or motor oil, specific prep compounds, etc)
Pattern recommended for front and rear?

tia, M

Personally, I like vanilla: 14/15, 3x.

One thing I would recommend, for that hub especially, is a locking nipple. Really only necessary on the NDS.

[Gummee]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181031/a2692122367cf724e24d44a1de18ffd7.jpg

Great information in this thread.

Ready to try my first build:
Campy 32h hubs
Mavic reflex rims (from unused donor wheel set)

Need to measure actual ERD - will use the spoke method from the park website.

Planning for double butted spokes and brass nipples.

Qs:
Good online source for spokes?
Spoke/Nipple brand make any difference?
Spoke/Nipple prep? Confused by all the opinions (boiled linseed, gear or motor oil, specific prep compounds, etc)
Pattern recommended for front and rear?

tia, M

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say 292/294


I'm not too particular about what I lube nipples with. I've used lots of stuff and have found that as long as whatever it is lets the nipple turn freely a few years in, it's good. Lately I've been dipping the ends in some red automotive grease when building at home, or Motorex green grease when building at my last shop.

Give Hoss Active Sports Group a call and get you some Sapims if you can't find a bro deal elsewhere

M

[weisan]

Just finished another build.

Shimano FH5800 105 11 speed hub
Pacenti Forza 32h rim

http://alicehui.com/bike/wheel/IMG_1818.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/wheel/IMG_1814.JPG

[speedevil]

You can read the label on the hub through the valve hole in the rim - just like it should be. A small detail that a lot of builders don't spend 10 seconds to make right.

I know it's just a tradition, like mounting the tire with the label at the valve hole, but a lot of us are particular about details and this is no different.

Yes, the wheel will roll fine whether the hub label is lined up or not, and also whether or not the tire label is lined up - but why not?

Nice looking wheels.

[weisan]

Thank you speed pal.

I got two more builds coming up.

650b 32h SP dyno wheelset
700 Dyad 36h touring wheelset

[oldpotatoe]

You can read the label on the hub through the valve hole in the rim - just like it should be. A small detail that a lot of builders don't spend 10 seconds to make right.

I know it's just a tradition, like mounting the tire with the label at the valve hole, but a lot of us are particular about details and this is no different.

Yes, the wheel will roll fine whether the hub label is lined up or not, and also whether or not the tire label is lined up - but why not?

Nice looking wheels.

You mount the label at the valve to use as a reference to try to find whatever gave you the flat is still in the tire.

Yup, easy to get the hub label lined up with valve hole..but ohh so many, and some 'garage wrenches' here, don't understand inside pulling/outside pulling and the advantages/disadvantages of each..but in the grand scheme of things, it means little. I have seen garage 'guys' who build wheels with mixed lacings, wrong lacings, mixed rim labels..all sorts of funky stuff..BUT if they are tensioned correctly, stress relieved, probably OK.

[bikinchris]

As far as lube in wheel building, It's almost impossible to have too much lubrication.
Personally, the better quality Velocity hubs are actually pretty well made.

[Gummee]

There was a post earlier in the thread talking about 'secrets' in wheel building.

Quite honestly, there aren't any. Skill? Yes. Lots. Experience? That too. Secrets? Nope

I can teach a kid how to lace a wheel. That's the easy part. The skill and experience comes in when truing and tensioning.

It really isn't rocket science. Give it a lash and see what happens!

M

[weisan]

650b SP PD-8X dynamo disc wheel
http://alicehui.com/bike/wheel/IMG_2068.jpg

[Joxster]

You mount the label at the valve to use as a reference to try to find whatever gave you the flat is still in the tire.

Yup, easy to get the hub label lined up with valve hole..but ohh so many, and some 'garage wrenches' here, don't understand inside pulling/outside pulling and the advantages/disadvantages of each..but in the grand scheme of things, it means little. I have seen garage 'guys' who build wheels with mixed lacings, wrong lacings, mixed rim labels..all sorts of funky stuff..BUT if they are tensioned correctly, stress relieved, probably OK.

I build for someone who is full on OCD and I have a set that the front is one out forward and the rear is one out backwards, just to wind him up. I've also got a defib machine to bring him back.

[93KgBike]

I just built up a set of Ksyrium Elites to use on a CX bike I can't stop tinkering and untinkering and retinkering with. Love it.

I got the spokes from the Rogue Mechanic (https://www.mavicparts.com), who is awesome.

you should make up some "WL" labels - "weisan lite" :hello:

I like the idea of a Ksyrium WL.