Ot: tesla May be coming

[Tickdoc]

Announced today we are in the final running along with Austin for their new plant. No announcement of what they will make or what part of town it will be in, but the plant will be bigger than the one in Fremont.:eek:

I want to be happy but I’m already suffering from the toilet paper plant that just went in down the road from me.....tons more traffic and houses. All the little farms/ranches I ride by are fast becoming neighborhoods.

I remember last time I was in boulder the locals at a small cafe were bitching about google coming to town.

I grew up in a small town that was anti-growth and it made me so mad when I was younger. Now I am “that guy” and already missing the small town feel we used to enjoy....no traffic, laid back people. At least I’ll only have to put up with it for another 10 yrs or so and then I can hopefully escape.

Elon can suck it.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/044/247/297.png

[tomato coupe]

I want to be happy but I’m already suffering from the toilet paper plant that just went in down the road from me...
Yes, but do they have a factory outlet?

[cribbit]

SpaceX basically destroyed a small town by the coast in Texas.

That said, they are also quite aware of their impact and try to mitigate it. However, their mitigation doesn't always align with what actually helps those impacted.

Definitely a mixed bag. But manufacturing is usually better jobs and less negatives than a spaceship launch site.

[Steve in SLO]

I feel for you. If Tesla does come to town, it will be a tectonic change in culture. If something like that was coming to our little town, I would buy as much real estate as I could, then cash out and move to someplace else with a big war chest for travel and retirement.

[Dave Ferris]

After this power/ego scenario he pulled in Freemont, even I was wealthy, I would never buy a Tesla. F him. Reminds me too much of the other guy.

[Tickdoc]

Yes, but do they have a factory outlet?

:butt:No, but they have a parking lot for 500 semi trailers and they run in and out 24/7.

[tomato coupe]

:butt:No, but they have a parking lot for 500 semi trailers and they run in and out 24/7.
Sounds like the kind of situation where a few rolls might occasionally "fall off the truck." That could come in handy in today's environment.

[smontanaro]

Tickdoc, you're in luck. It seems Tesla is going to Austin:

https://electrek.co/2020/05/15/tesla-factory-austin-texas/

[oldpotatoe]

I wouldn't be buying up real estate just yet..Elon musk people..on twitter..the same guy that gives doobie infused videos...
When Tesla CEO Elon Musk declared war with the government of Alameda County, California, on Twitter last weekend, he caused a lot of confusion in the process. Musk's tweets spurred many to believe he would take the automaker's thousands of jobs out of the state immediately or at least very soon. But that's not actually the case. At least, not quite.

"Tesla will now move its HQ and future programs to Texas/Nevada immediately," Musk said on Twitter, where he also announced that the company filed a lawsuit against Alameda County after local officials refused to let the company reopen its Fremont, California, factory.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/12/cars/tesla-elon-musk-california-factory-tweet/index.html

Sounds like elon is having a little melt down...Until they buy land and break ground somewhere else, I wouldn't take this to the bank.

[kiwisimon]

I think Elon's ego will soon outgrow Texas and Oklahoma combined. They are also much closer to Mexico.

[CNY rider]

Elon took a ton of taxpayer money and built a plant in Buffalo that does pretty much nothing.
It's a disgraceful use of taxpayer's money.

https://www.wivb.com/news/former-tesla-workers-paint-grim-picture-of-buffalo-plant/

[Tickdoc]

Tickdoc, you're in luck. It seems Tesla is going to Austin:

https://electrek.co/2020/05/15/tesla-factory-austin-texas/

man, I hope that article is true. still seems speculative.

[OtayBW]

I don't know where in the blazes Tesla is going, but I'm going with 'Elon can suck it' for $1000, Alex.

[saab2000]

It would be nice if platforms for intoxicated rants (Twitter) didn't exist. That way we wouldn't be aware of the musings of folks like Elon Musk or the other notorious Twitterer.

But I hope Tesla continues their growth and success and as much as the eccentricities of Elon make me as a shareholder a bit nervous, I'd rather have him at the helm of Tesla than some other traditional know-nothing US auto executive.

The rest of the US auto industry is stuck in the 1980s, focusing on behemoth trucks instead of trying to move forward to the next era of energy and technology. Tesla is an energy and tech company that happens to make automobiles.

The thought of going to a Ford or GM showroom makes me sad. Tesla is a breath of fresh air, in more ways than one, though obviously imperfect at times. I like their future and I kind of expect my next vehicle to be a Tesla.

No more gas station visits, only occasional charge stops on long road trips.
Charge at home - Full every morning.
Quiet driving experience.
Very little recurrent maintenance.

Those are just a few of the positives I envision.

[54ny77]

More power to 'em.

Puts his money where his mouth is, creates jobs stateside, not just at plants but the income multiplier in states/communities.

Imagine Ford or GM CEOs doing similar?

[unterhausen]

You'd think that Musk would get them to change the law that keeps Tesla from selling cars in Texas first?

[texbike]

It would be nice if platforms for intoxicated rants (Twitter) didn't exist. That way we wouldn't be aware of the musings of folks like Elon Musk or the other notorious Twitterer.

But I hope Tesla continues their growth and success and as much as the eccentricities of Elon make me as a shareholder a bit nervous, I'd rather have him at the helm of Tesla than some other traditional know-nothing US auto executive.

The rest of the US auto industry is stuck in the 1980s, focusing on behemoth trucks instead of trying to move forward to the next era of energy and technology. Tesla is an energy and tech company that happens to make automobiles.

The thought of going to a Ford or GM showroom makes me sad. Tesla is a breath of fresh air, in more ways than one, though obviously imperfect at times. I like their future and I kind of expect my next vehicle to be a Tesla.

No more gas station visits, only occasional charge stops on long road trips.
Charge at home - Full every morning.
Quiet driving experience.
Very little recurrent maintenance.

Those are just a few of the positives I envision.

More power to 'em.

Puts his money where his mouth is, creates jobs stateside, not just at plants but the income multiplier in states/communities.

Imagine Ford or GM CEOs doing similar?

Yeah, I don't get the hate. Tesla has influenced the automotive industry in so many ways in its less than 20 years of existence. I'm a fan of the company, but would really prefer that they built the manufacturing plant in Tulsa. Tulsa has a stronger manufacturing base than Austin AND I'm sure that the Tulsa economy could probably use the boost compared to our area.

Texbike

[Monsieur Toast]

As a resident of Northern Nevada, fsck Elon Musk. I wish he never came to town.

[mtechnica]

I like Tesla’s cars but personally don’t like Elon Musk. That said the memes about his kids name are pretty hilarious. Oh and remember the time he said his stock was worth too much? At least he’s entertaining.

[Drmojo]

is clearly bipolar— for better or worse
Many titans of industry and of course brilliant authors and poets
are/ were manic- depressives
—the cyclothymic shrink

dr mojo

[zap]

After this power/ego scenario he pulled in Freemont, even I was wealthy, I would never buy a Tesla. F him. Reminds me too much of the other guy.

It's business.....production needed to start back up if safety measures are implemented.

Business wise California has gone all weird so it would be smart for some businesses to start formulating exit plans.

[MikeD]

After this power/ego scenario he pulled in Freemont, even I was wealthy, I would never buy a Tesla. F him. Reminds me too much of the other guy.


Bravo to Elon Musk. Tesla should never have been shutdown to begin with as auto manufacturers are considered essential businesses under federal guidelines. He should have sued Alameda County for business losses instead of just for legal fees.

[sw3759]

hard to believe he would build a factory in a state that wont allow him to sell his cars.you cant buy a Tesla legally in Texas

[FlashUNC]

Bravo to Elon Musk. Tesla should never have been shutdown to begin with as auto manufacturers are considered essential businesses under federal guidelines. He should have sued Alameda County for business losses instead of just for legal fees.

$70-100k electric ego boosts for tech Bros ain't exactly essential.

I can't wait to hear about inevitable outbreaks in the plant given their atrocious record for safety even before all this started.

Tesla is the worst.

[dieonthishill]

"Blah blah blah, I'm so upset that the world is changing." Stop complaining and enjoy your phone and other tech that was built in a plant that did the same thing to the town it was built in. These are the times we live in, deal with it.

[unterhausen]

there was an outbreak of covid at that factory, not sure he would be able to start back up if it weren't for the lock down.

[el cheapo]

Austin American Statesman ran an article yesterday afternoon that said an undisclosed source claimed the Tesla plant would be built near Austin. I'm thinking the town of Hutto that was recently in the running for another Tesla Plant (batteries) that went to Nevada.

[tylercheung]

I wouldn't be buying up real estate just yet..Elon musk people..on twitter..the same guy that gives doobie infused videos...


https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/12/cars/tesla-elon-musk-california-factory-tweet/index.html

Sounds like elon is having a little melt down...Until they buy land and break ground somewhere else, I wouldn't take this to the bank.



yes, at least for SpaceX he has Gwynne Shotwell who is the calm and steely presence who tempers his worst impulses...he needs someone like her at Tesla.

And at least per Alameda officials, his review for opening up the factory was 2 days away when he had his Twitter tirade. He gets like this every once in a while when he gets stressed out (am betting they will rename his kid after a year or two...)

[verticaldoug]

Tesla has been shopping the new factory for the truck since the end of last year . I think now he is just trying to use this 'little controversy' with California to get some conservative politicians to sign off on larger tax incentives. The gigafactory in Nevada has $1.3b in tax breaks,

He did something along these lines in Buffalo NY to build a Solar panel factor with state subsidies. I think the state took a 958mm writedown to employ 1460 people.

It'd been cheaper to just give the 1,460 people $500,000 each.

[oldpotatoe]

It would be nice if platforms for intoxicated rants (Twitter) didn't exist. That way we wouldn't be aware of the musings of folks like Elon Musk or the other notorious Twitterer.

Yup..I hear, on other forums, again and again..don't look at what "they" 'say' but what they do..At least for Musk(no comment on the other), he has 'done' quite a lot...Both with Tesla, battery and energy tech, SpaceX..BUT..yup, I wish he would Shut The Front Door...twitter is painful to watch.
BUT, words, even twitter rants and rages, matter..

[oldpotatoe]

Bravo to Elon Musk. Tesla should never have been shutdown to begin with as auto manufacturers are considered essential businesses under federal guidelines. He should have sued Alameda County for business losses instead of just for legal fees.
Business Insider spoke with 10 Tesla employees all over the country, all of whom said they feared for their health and livelihood and some felt leadership at Tesla was lacking. The workers asked to remain anonymous for fear of retribution, but their identities are known to Business Insider.
Some employees said they worried that they could lose their jobs for taking time off, or said they felt Tesla lacked basic precautionary measures, like readily available hand sanitizer.
I can't wait to hear about inevitable outbreaks in the plant given their atrocious record for safety even before all this started.

Tesla is the worst.
A review by Forbes found 24 investigations by California Occupational Safety and Health Administration inspectors from 2014 to 2018, resulting in fines for 54 violations. These include new penalties that haven't yet hit the national online OSHA database, and they nearly double Tesla's fines over the last five years, to $236,730

yup, bravo elon..:eek:

[mcteague]

Yeah, Elon is quite the visionary! This is one of his tweets about COVID-19 back in March.

Tim

[kiwisimon]

. I'm thinking the town of Hutto that was recently in the running for another Tesla Plant (batteries) that went to Nevada.

that was a great negotiating seed planted. not afraid to walk so screw down the tax breaks even more.

[oldpotatoe]

Yeah, Elon is quite the visionary! This is one of his tweets about COVID-19 back in March.

Tim

Yup, another 'gotta expect losses' kinda guy..sacrifice lives for the almighty $....

[unterhausen]

All of his enterprises existed before he took over and, at least in in Tesla's case, pushed out the actual visionaries. It's looking increasingly clear that the only thing he added was money.

[MikeD]

yup, bravo elon..:eek:


I bet there are thousands of people in the Bay Area currently facing poverty because of unreasonable lockdowns ordered by local health administrators (how does one individual have such power in this country) that would gladly take a job at Tesla.

[fiamme red]

I guess the reason that he's trying to sell all his houses at once is because he needs the cash.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/amydobson/2020/05/17/elon-musk-lists-five-more-homes-for-sale-now-surpassing-135-million-in-asking-prices/#573b2e242067

It started two weeks ago with a simple tweet from billionaire Elon Musk saying that he intended to ‘own no homes’ as part of his life overhaul in which he will also own very few possessions. Shortly thereafter he listed two of his California houses For Sale By Owner and in the past few days he has listed another five California properties, also as For Sale By Owner, but there’s a catch. The four that are all in the same Los Angeles neighborhood are being sold as a bundle in one massive sale for a combined $62.5 million. The fifth is a home in Silicon Valley asking $35 million...

[OtayBW]

I bet there are thousands of people in the Bay Area currently facing poverty because of unreasonable lockdowns ordered by local health administrators (how does one individual have such power in this country) that would gladly take a job at Tesla.
You say potato....

[MikeD]

I guess the reason that he's trying to sell all his houses at once is because he needs the cash.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/amydobson/2020/05/17/elon-musk-lists-five-more-homes-for-sale-now-surpassing-135-million-in-asking-prices/#573b2e242067



He probably wants to get out of California, like other rich people are. I can't blame him.

[Monsieur Toast]

He probably wants to get out of California, like other rich people are. I can't blame him.

Speaking of people that are ruining Northern Nevada ....

[William]

Omitting the snark about him personally...His business, which is his business. He built and manages his resources, if he doesn't like how Cali interacts with him its his prerogative to move it. At least he's looking at other places in the States instead of moving it overseas which so many businesses have done in recent decades.

As far as his cars, I don't know, I haven't driven one yet so I can't comment.





W.

[William]

Speaking of people that are ruining Northern Nevada ....

That's what people in Oregon say.;):)






W.

[Monsieur Toast]

That's what people in Oregon say.;):)

W.

We were talking yesterday about really sticking it to them by moving to ... California! :banana:

[mtechnica]

I can see why he would want to move out of CA though, for better or for worse a lot of things are just way more difficult here.

[OtayBW]

Speaking of people that are ruining Northern Nevada ....I lived in No. Nevada once upon a time. Interesting place, but after a few years, I was ready to get outta there. Certainly the road riding was not so good unless you like out and back.....

[wc1934]

after this power/ego scenario he pulled in freemont, even i was wealthy, i would never buy a tesla. F him. Reminds me too much of the other guy.

+1

[mtechnica]

Sucks Tesla is the only company that makes an electric car worth buying tho

[unterhausen]

I swear they were pretty close to booting him, but talk of that seems to have gone away.

[pbarry]

Bollinger

[unterhausen]

I think other companies are catching up pretty quickly

[grateful]

The Californians ruined Bozeman when I was there. They ruined Coeur d'Alene when I was there. They are ruining Austin now that I am here. I think that I am being followed :eek:

Or maybe the population is increasing as is the value of land with the coasts benefiting first.

Speaking of people that are ruining Northern Nevada ....

[mtechnica]

I think other companies are catching up pretty quickly

Are they though? What can you go buy right now that is remotely comparable to a model 3?

[mtechnica]

Is the VW ID3 still coming?

[FlashUNC]

Are they though? What can you go buy right now that is remotely comparable to a model 3?

Jaguar I Pace
Audi e Tron

For a mass market car, the 3 is going through teething issues no one would forgive from another manufacturer:

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/tesla-model-3-loses-cr-recommendation-over-reliability-issues/

[mtechnica]

Jaguar I Pace
Audi e Tron

For a mass market car, the 3 is going through teething issues no one would forgive from another manufacturer:

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/tesla-model-3-loses-cr-recommendation-over-reliability-issues/

I’ve heard about the model 3 issues. The e-tron is $75k lol, and the jag is 70k. You can get a model 3 starting at 40k. I’m not just trying to argue it’s just that I’ve been looking at buying an electric car for a while now and they’re all either lame or too expensive. The model 3 for all its flaws is somewhat affordable and still fast-ish and not god awful looking.

The ID3 is the only thing that looks competitive at all and idk if they’re gonna sell them here or not.

[Tickdoc]

Bollinger

This was a great deal at 60....even 70k. This is not a good deal at $120k

[FlashUNC]

I’ve heard about the model 3 issues. The e-tron is $75k lol, and the jag is 70k. You can get a model 3 starting at 40k. I’m not just trying to argue it’s just that I’ve been looking at buying an electric car for a while now and they’re all either lame or too expensive. The model 3 for all its flaws is somewhat affordable and still fast-ish and not god awful looking.

The ID3 is the only thing that looks competitive at all and idk if they’re gonna sell them here or not.

Godspeed if you can actually get a Model 3 at $40k. Tesla's been notorious for pushing the $40k price, but the reality is you're closer to $50-$65k when you're actually out the door.

And that point, you're in spitting distance of the Jag and Audi. Of those three companies, I think I'd trust Jag and Audi wth the fit and finish details over Tesla.

[Mike V]

Porsche Taycan also

[mistermo]

Porsche Taycan also

Anyone who thinks Porsche/Audi or any US car company is close to Tesla is delusional. eTron, iPace, not even close. Jag can't give their cars away.
NOBODY has anywhere close to the same battery range. The Taycan, at SIGNIFICANTLY more money, can only muster ~200 miles range, and good luck getting it charged on the way from LA to Vegas. The new eMustang, not even launched, is also seriously lacking, at more or less the same money. Tesla is a couple yrs away from Gen2 battery tech that will go 400-500 miles. They're already at 300miles, way beyond anyone else.

You can't drive any other eCar on a cross country trip because the charging infrastructure simply does not exist. Tesla, with supercharging stations, has that nailed too. I'm NOT saying no one will ever catch up, but the rest of auto world is a decade behind.

Elon may be a bi-polar twitter douche, but it's a fools errand to think any other car company remotely compares.

Godspeed if you can actually get a Model 3 at $40k. Tesla's been notorious for pushing the $40k price, but the reality is you're closer to $50-$65k when you're actually out the door.

And that point, you're in spitting distance of the Jag and Audi. Of those three companies, I think I'd trust Jag and Audi wth the fit and finish details over Tesla.

I've had 3 Audis and 2 Teslas. There's absolutely no comparison. NONE.
I've not ever, never, had even ONE service issue with Tesla. Just google the service issues with Audi. Audi's service and reliability is historically dreadful. While I loved Audis, they spent more time in the shop than on the road once they hit 60K miles.

[mtechnica]

Godspeed if you can actually get a Model 3 at $40k. Tesla's been notorious for pushing the $40k price, but the reality is you're closer to $50-$65k when you're actually out the door.

And that point, you're in spitting distance of the Jag and Audi. Of those three companies, I think I'd trust Jag and Audi wth the fit and finish details over Tesla.

There are some in stock on their website for 40 + tax or whatever

[oldpotatoe]

I bet there are thousands of people in the Bay Area currently facing poverty because of unreasonable lockdowns ordered by local health administrators (how does one individual have such power in this country) that would gladly take a job at Tesla.

Ok, why 'unreasonable' considering the ease at which this virus is transmitted? AND it's the Governor, with health officials advice, that does this
Another 'let's let this wash over us' to achieve 'herd immunity', screw anybody that's old or vulnerable or just is unlucky enough to get sick.

YES, a balancing act to minimize the deaths that are inevitable but I guess, almost 100,000 is ok with you..maybe 150,000, 400,000, that OK with you too?

Poverty, yes..how about a FDR type package to help those in this pandemic(3 months old, BTW), instead of a grossly overfunded DOD or $ to a stupid wall??

BTW-'How does one individual have such power in this country'????YGBSM..how about the knumbskull in the big chair that ignores science and is just worried about ratings..what's his latest 'executive order' that's based on his wee ego..??

[mcteague]

Ok, why 'unreasonable' considering the ease at which this virus is transmitted? AND it's the Governor, with health officials advice, that does this
Another 'let's let this wash over us' to achieve 'herd immunity', screw anybody that's old or vulnerable or just is unlucky enough to get sick.

YES, a balancing act to minimize the deaths that are inevitable but I guess, almost 100,000 is ok with you..maybe 150,000, 400,000, that OK with you too?

Poverty, yes..how about a FDR type package to help those in this pandemic(3 months old, BTW), instead of a grossly overfunded DOD or $ to a stupid wall??

BTW-'How does one individual have such power in this country'????YGBSM..how about the knumbskull in the big char that ignores science and is just worried about ratings..what's his latest 'executive order' that's based on his wee ego..
:hello:
Tim

[saab2000]

Anyone who thinks Porsche/Audi or any US car company is close to Tesla is delusional. eTron, iPace, not even close. Jag can't give their cars away.
NOBODY has anywhere close to the same battery range. The Taycan, at SIGNIFICANTLY more money, can only muster ~200 miles range, and good luck getting it charged on the way from LA to Vegas. The new eMustang, not even launched, is also seriously lacking, at more or less the same money. Tesla is a couple yrs away from Gen2 battery tech that will go 400-500 miles. They're already at 300miles, way beyond anyone else.

You can't drive any other eCar on a cross country trip because the charging infrastructure simply does not exist. Tesla, with supercharging stations, has that nailed too. I'm NOT saying no one will ever catch up, but the rest of auto world is a decade behind.

Elon may be a bi-polar twitter douche, but it's a fools errand to think any other car company remotely compares.



I've had 3 Audis and 2 Teslas. There's absolutely no comparison. NONE.
I've not ever, never, had even ONE service issue with Tesla. Just google the service issues with Audi. Audi's service and reliability is historically dreadful. While I loved Audis, they spent more time in the shop than on the road once they hit 60K miles.

This is all correct. Nobody else is really close to Tesla in terms of their battery technology and charging network. It's not perfect and their figurehead/leader/biggest shareholder is quirky (to say the least) but he's also pretty bright and seems to have a vision of the future the other manufacturers are completely missing. Tesla's cars aren't publicity stunts or extreme niches within a niche. With the exception of their solar roof technology, it's all they do. They're all-in on this stuff and their self-driving technology is years ahead of the others. That said I'm still not ready for the car to drive me around by itself.

It's boring and not a halo car, but I've seen a surprisingly high number of positive reviews of the Chevrolet Bolt. I think GM actually did their homework on that one if someone doesn't want an expensive Tesla. And on the other end, the Audi e-Tron is somewhat interesting to me as well if you don't need Tesla's range. That's a car I would lease though. They're part of the VW group (which is a huge company with deep pockets and lots of resources) so all of their cars will share tech. I'm curious about what their Golf-class electric car will be like when it is released.

These are for-profit companies with all that entails, both positive and negative.

[Smitty2k1]

No love for the new Nissan Leaf with 62kwh battery or the new generation of Chevy Bolt for 2020? Those are direct competitors to the Model 3.

As others have said, Audi and Jag have competitors to the Model S/X in the luxury market.

Tesla is an interesting company to be sure and has done some really cool things. Specifically their removal from the traditional dealership network.

Time will tell if the loyal fan base Tesla has will be sustainable in the long term.

[zap]

NOBODY has anywhere close to the same battery range. The Taycan, at SIGNIFICANTLY more money, can only muster ~200 miles range, and good luck getting it charged on the way from LA to Vegas.

In the real world the Porsche is only 10 miles short (per CD) on range. Tesla's range drops when you use a Tesla as one should.....climate system on, radio....
Porsche system also charges faster....if you can find a charger to take advantage of Porsche's superior system. But that will improve with time.

Yes, the Porsche costs a bloody fortune but it is a rocket sled with proper build quality that anyone who likes cars even just a little bit will appreciate.

Google Car and Driver and/or Top Gear for test results.

[mistermo]

No love for the new Nissan Leaf with 62kwh battery or the new generation of Chevy Bolt for 2020? Those are direct competitors to the Model 3.


They simply don't compare. You can't drive any of these from Indianapolis to Chicago, Boston to DC, LA to Vegas, St Louis to KC...you pick it. There's no charging infrastructure along the route, as Tesla has. People drive their Teslas cross country, thanks to Tesla's proprietary charging network. These companies don't have ANY US charging network and, unless you're willing to wait 6-8 hours to charge, every 150 miles, you're not going to leave your city.

Besides the lack of network, these cars have ranges around ~200 miles rather than the ~300 of Tesla. Not saying these companies will never succeed, but they are a decade behind. These companies, are working on Gen2 batteries that may not be as good as Tesla's Gen1. Tesla is a couple years from their Gen2 which will put them even further ahead. The new Tesla Roadster will have a range of 620 miles! The local Jag dealer is offering massive discounts on their iPace. For the price, I would consider a Chevy Bolt, which is a nice car, but it's not comparable to a Tesla in either range, performance or charging network.

[Mike V]

Everyone is a decade behind until pissy pants gets irked and sells it off tomorrow to play with his rockets. Might even be in the works already.:banana:

[MikeD]

Ok, why 'unreasonable' considering the ease at which this virus is transmitted? AND it's the Governor, with health officials advice, that does this
Another 'let's let this wash over us' to achieve 'herd immunity', screw anybody that's old or vulnerable or just is unlucky enough to get sick.

YES, a balancing act to minimize the deaths that are inevitable but I guess, almost 100,000 is ok with you..maybe 150,000, 400,000, that OK with you too?

Poverty, yes..how about a FDR type package to help those in this pandemic(3 months old, BTW), instead of a grossly overfunded DOD or $ to a stupid wall??

BTW-'How does one individual have such power in this country'????YGBSM..how about the knumbskull in the big chair that ignores science and is just worried about ratings..what's his latest 'executive order' that's based on his wee ego..??


Mods, why do you continue to tolerate political posts from this person?

[akelman]

Bravo to Elon Musk. Tesla should never have been shutdown to begin with as auto manufacturers are considered essential businesses under federal guidelines. He should have sued Alameda County for business losses instead of just for legal fees.

I bet there are thousands of people in the Bay Area currently facing poverty because of unreasonable lockdowns ordered by local health administrators (how does one individual have such power in this country) that would gladly take a job at Tesla.

He probably wants to get out of California, like other rich people are. I can't blame him.

Mods, why do you continue to tolerate political posts from this person?

It truly is a great mystery. If only Leonard Nimoy were still alive, he might be able to get to the bottom of it.

[benb]

They simply don't compare. You can't drive any of these from Indianapolis to Chicago, Boston to DC, LA to Vegas, St Louis to KC...you pick it. There's no charging infrastructure along the route, as Tesla has. People drive their Teslas cross country, thanks to Tesla's proprietary charging network. These companies don't have ANY US charging network and, unless you're willing to wait 6-8 hours to charge, every 150 miles, you're not going to leave your city.

Besides the lack of network, these cars have ranges around ~200 miles rather than the ~300 of Tesla. Not saying these companies will never succeed, but they are a decade behind. These companies, are working on Gen2 batteries that may not be as good as Tesla's Gen1. Tesla is a couple years from their Gen2 which will put them even further ahead. The new Tesla Roadster will have a range of 620 miles! The local Jag dealer is offering massive discounts on their iPace. For the price, I would consider a Chevy Bolt, which is a nice car, but it's not comparable to a Tesla in either range, performance or charging network.

Yah all this talk about other manufacturers is laughable to me having been following this closely for a while. I'm going to end up buying a Tesla at some point unless things change a lot. I drive very little so no intention to actually buy for years still.

The only car that is remotely competitive with Tesla is the Chevy Bolt. But Chevy doesn't really care about the Bolt so it feels like a huge risk. They don't even want to sell it, AFAICT the Bolt was just a political move to earn credits so they can sell more big SUVs.

The Model S tops out at 391mi range now, it has not been a stationary target for Audi/Porsche/VW/Jaguar to try and catch up too. There's a big difference between 200 and close to 400.

We will see where the ID3 comes in, you can't compare the Model 3 vs anything but the Bolt & Leaf really IMO. No sane buyer will actually consider the Audi/Porsche/Jag vs the Bolt/3/Y/Leaf as they're just in two different price ranges. The Audi/Porsche/Jag offerings are for luxury buyers who are biased towards Euro brands.

Porsche is the only company with interesting ideas besides Tesla right now but the price is in the stratosphere and there will be nowhere you can take advantage of its super high charge capabilities. Porsche will never spend the money to build out a big charging infrastructure. They just won't, their EVs will be toys for the rich just like a lot of their ICE vehicles.

Porsche is also the only one of these European companies I'd ever take my chances with in terms of reliability. Even if Tesla is not Toyota I'd still rather take my chances with them. The picture seems muddy with Tesla but they're still EVs with low maintenance. VW/Audi/Jag have never been known for reliability. Any Environmentally conscious buyer should have a heaping dose of skepticism about VW/Audi as well, they have burned a lot of bridges.

[William]

A few of you need to knock it off...OldP, MikeD, akleman, etc... you've been warned before. We'll discuss and see where we go from here.






W.

[William]

Everyone and their mother drives a Tesla in my area. There is even a dealership inside a large local mall. They certainly seem to be way ahead of all the other mfr's right now and probably will continue to for a while.






W.

[benb]

The biggest thing Tesla has going for them is their EVs are not a silly experiment on the side that they're worried about being too successful, they're the core product, the only thing they care about.

Everyone else is kind of dipping their toe into the water and has some weird ulterior motives.

Teslas big threat will come from a new competitor that is 100% Electric like they are, or if one of the big auto companies makes some incredible pivot and actually starts shutting down their ICE production.

Tesla has 100% of their engineers working on EVs, not a side team. All their accounting & financing & product development is based on making the best EVs they can and selling as many as they can.

Everyone else is just doing an experiment and not putting all their resources into play.

[mistermo]

In most every category, Tesla's business model is different, from selling in malls, to no franchises, to the buying and servicing experiences, to lack of advertising.

Everything that doesn't add value has been stripped from the ownership process and resulting costs mitigated. What's left is a pleasant experience of vehicle ownership.

For service (I accidentally broke side mirror), one registers online and they offer time slots. Everything had been ordered and ready when I arrived for mirror replacement. Quick in, quick out. There is no number to call and nobody to pay for scheduling my service appt. If you're not willing to do things online, or on your smartphone, this won't be the car for you.

The amount of moving parts in a Tesla is fraction of an ICE car. Therefore, there's considerably less to wear out or service. The business model is designed to make profit on the SALE of the car, not the downstream service costs. (speaking to you BMW/Audi/VAG/Merc).

There's no price negotiating, no salespeople (with desks, salaries and commissions to cover), no "finance manager". You buy online before you enter dealer. Versus traditional, there's significantly smaller real estate footprint with only one location in many US cities (excluding malls). Inventory (and associated carrying costs) is limited and usually your car must be ordered in advance.

Does something seem wrong with your car? They'll login via satellite and diagnose, with no dealer visit and resulting $100 diagnosis fee. Last week's over the air software update now has the car recognizing trash cans and traffic cones. No bricks and mortar required.

There's NO advertising and marketing. There's no brochures and there's no costs for these either.

I'm no Elon fanboy, and cringe when people view him as the God he isn't. However, every day I scratch my head, puzzled why it took someone with ZERO car industry experience to completely upend it. Tesla has thousands of bright and dedicated employees who have made this company a success. I choose to give them the credit.

It's undeniable that Tesla has changed the car industry permanently, likely for the better.

We should be copying Tesla's model in other industries: Reduced visits to hospitals would benefit us all, especially these days. We should be prioritizing scalable medical technology that can deliver better results with smaller footprints. Same is true with education. No longer needed are $250 million capital campaigns to build a new campus or building. Universities, bastions of liberal thought, continue to ignore this inevitability.

[akelman]

Same is true with education. No longer needed are $250 million capital campaigns to build a new campus or building. Universities, bastions of liberal thought, continue to ignore this inevitability.

Change is coming, no doubt. But I think what you write above pivots on the misguided notion that most of the added value in higher education can be found in the classroom experience. That isn't the case, at least not for higher-tier colleges and universities, where a campus experience will remain central to quality and comparative advantage for many, many years ahead.

[zap]

The biggest thing Tesla has going for them is their EVs are not a silly experiment on the side that they're worried about being too successful, they're the core product, the only thing they care about.

Everyone else is kind of dipping their toe into the water and has some weird ulterior motives.

It is serious business for European manufacturers. European countries have really tightened auto emissions so EV's are a must for VW, Mercedes, etc. if they wish to survive.

[jb_11]

The biggest thing Tesla has going for them is their EVs are not a silly experiment on the side that they're worried about being too successful, they're the core product, the only thing they care about.

Everyone else is kind of dipping their toe into the water and has some weird ulterior motives.

Teslas big threat will come from a new competitor that is 100% Electric like they are, or if one of the big auto companies makes some incredible pivot and actually starts shutting down their ICE production.

Tesla has 100% of their engineers working on EVs, not a side team. All their accounting & financing & product development is based on making the best EVs they can and selling as many as they can.

Everyone else is just doing an experiment and not putting all their resources into play.

I think it's far more than an experiment for the other players. GM, VW, Volvo, and others have all announced they are going fully electric in the coming years. Their timelines may shift, but they're definitely not just dabbling.

[cmg]

" have all announced they are going fully electric in the coming years." That's been said for the last decade and where are the cars? Chevy reduced production of the volt. https://electrek.co/2018/11/26/gm-chevy-volt-factory-shutdown-electric-investmet/ and what happen to Ford and their investment in Rivian, https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/28/21240212/ford-lincoln-cancel-rivian-suv-ev-coronavirus-pandemic-investment . The big 3 aren't serious and aren't going to be until there nearly bankrupt. Makes for great advertising but in realty very little output.

[benb]

Right.. they've been a decade behind for a decade already.

The bizarre thing is the threat is real at this point just on car #s.

The Model 3 might be the only EV selling in bulk but it outsells all European car models (model vs model) in the US at this point. That's why it is starting to seem like you see Model 3s every time you turn around.

The Camry was the best selling car in Q1 at about 75k cars.

The Model 3 was the #8 selling car in the US in Q1 with a little under 28k.

The Jetta was the top European car and was around 22k units.

The classic best sellers fill out the list. Accord, Civic, Corolla, Fusion, Maxima, etc..

Most of the other EVs are selling in absolutely tiny #s.

[BobbyJones]

Has anyone looked at the fact that Tesla has never had to show a profit?

Tesla has also had the good fortune of being a media darling and paying, like $0 for advertising?

I think its pretty substantial what they have accomplished, but the "start up" balance sheet can't go on forever.

One hell of a gamble though.

[oldpotatoe]

A few of you need to knock it off...OldP, MikeD, akleman, etc... you've been warned before. We'll discuss and see where we go from here.
W.

Noted sir...apologize to the mods who do a EXCELLENT and sometimes thankless job..

Peter

[oldpotatoe]

Is the EV truck really going to be a 'thing'(assume w/o the shattering windows:))...With gas prices below $2 per gallon(I know that will change but), and seeing the 'truck' culture..Will those 'good ole boys'(yes, a stereo type but not far off)..who argue about Japanese designed trucks going to opt in big numbers for a strange looking, EV truck? They buy and support via hats and
tshirts and NASCAR..don't necessarily look closely at function, features..most likely 'Ford', 'Chevy', 'Ram'..name plates.

[mistermo]

Has anyone looked at the fact that Tesla has never had to show a profit?

Tesla has also had the good fortune of being a media darling and paying, like $0 for advertising?

I think its pretty substantial what they have accomplished, but the "start up" balance sheet can't go on forever.

One hell of a gamble though.

No longer startup. Telsa is profitable (https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/29/business/tesla-earnings/index.html)

[FriarQuade]

When Tesla can beat the build quality of a ~$23,000 VW Golf, I'll get on board. They play the tech company fiddle really well and use it as justification for all kinds of things, like why they struggle to make money, produce cars that stay together, remove options post sale, don't supply parts outside of their network. I'm sure the established car companies had there fair share of teething issues as well but Tesla has to catch up to some pretty basic things for me. I do appreciate their sales approach as the dealership model has a stranglehold on the car industry.

If there is ONE SINGLE THING that electric cars need to be viable it's a standardized charging system. We use two different types of fossil fuels (ignoring fleet vehicles) and they come out of two different types of connectors that are universal throughout the entire world. Why this was ignored is about as senseless as Musk.

[Smitty2k1]

They simply don't compare. You can't drive any of these from Indianapolis to Chicago, Boston to DC, LA to Vegas, St Louis to KC...you pick it. There's no charging infrastructure along the route, as Tesla has. People drive their Teslas cross country, thanks to Tesla's proprietary charging network. These companies don't have ANY US charging network and, unless you're willing to wait 6-8 hours to charge, every 150 miles, you're not going to leave your city.

Besides the lack of network, these cars have ranges around ~200 miles rather than the ~300 of Tesla. Not saying these companies will never succeed, but they are a decade behind. These companies, are working on Gen2 batteries that may not be as good as Tesla's Gen1. Tesla is a couple years from their Gen2 which will put them even further ahead. The new Tesla Roadster will have a range of 620 miles! The local Jag dealer is offering massive discounts on their iPace. For the price, I would consider a Chevy Bolt, which is a nice car, but it's not comparable to a Tesla in either range, performance or charging network.

I may be missing something, but this sure makes it look like there are plenty of non-Tesla chargers around: https://openchargemap.org/site. I should know more about our charging infrastructure, but that's not something we at the DOT do.

2020 Bolt has ~235mi range
2020 Leaf 62kwh has ~225mi range

While I agree the Superchargers make a cross country trip more palatable, I'd also say driving across country is not something people do regularly (we have airplanes) and most people that own EVs have thus far had them as a 2nd or 3rd vehicle. That's part of the reason the EV tax credit is such a controversial subject.

[mistermo]

I may be missing something, but this sure makes it look like there are plenty of non-Tesla chargers around: https://openchargemap.org/site. I should know more about our charging infrastructure, but that's not something we at the DOT do.

2020 Bolt has ~235mi range
2020 Leaf 62kwh has ~225mi range

While I agree the Superchargers make a cross country trip more palatable, I'd also say driving across country is not something people do regularly (we have airplanes) and most people that own EVs have thus far had them as a 2nd or 3rd vehicle. That's part of the reason the EV tax credit is such a controversial subject.

Most, at least around these parts in Indianapolis, drive themselves or the family to Chicago or other nearby cities (Cincinnati, Columbus, St Louis, Louisville). It's rare that someone would fly to these places rather than drive.

Most EV car owners have a charger in their garage, that adds ~20-25 miles of range every hour, and start the day with a "full tank". There's gobs of universal EV chargers around (mostly in cities) that also add ~25 miles of range per hour. These can be used by Tesla, GM, Nissan...anyone. If all you want to do is drive around your city, then most any EV car will fill that need.

However, if one wants to venture outside their city for a trip, recharging at the rate of 25/miles per hour is far too time consuming. And good luck finding a charger along the highway to Chicago in Winimac, IN. The ONLY solution to this has come from Tesla with the supercharger network. It's proprietary, only for Tesla. Recharging can occur at rates up to 600miles of range per hour, though it varies. These stations are spaced along the highway system so that one can travel to most major places in the US, and "fill up", along the way, in a reasonable amount of time.

My buddy drives his daughter to school in Boulder, from Indianapolis. Hauling her college gear isn't practical in an airplane. With Tesla network, he can recharge in the middle of Kansas, en route to Boulder. Apart from Tesla, NO other EV company has a system that permits this.

[Monsieur Toast]

Is the EV truck really going to be a 'thing'(assume w/o the shattering windows:)...With gas prices below $2 per gallon(I know that will change but), and seeing the 'truck' culture..Will those 'good ole boys'(yes, a stereo type but not far off)..who argue about Japanese designed trucks going to opt in big numbers for a strange looking, EV truck? They buy and support via hats and
tshirts and NASCAR..don't necessarily look closely at function, features..most likely 'Ford', 'Chevy', 'Ram'..name plates.

You live in Boulder, right? I'd say all the people out here in The West paying $50k+ for a 4wd Toyota 4Runner or Tacoma that never hits dirt would be great candidates for the Tesla Truck.

[MikeD]

In most every category, Tesla's business model is different, from selling in malls, to no franchises, to the buying and servicing experiences, to lack of advertising.



Everything that doesn't add value has been stripped from the ownership process and resulting costs mitigated. What's left is a pleasant experience of vehicle ownership.



For service (I accidentally broke side mirror), one registers online and they offer time slots. Everything had been ordered and ready when I arrived for mirror replacement. Quick in, quick out. There is no number to call and nobody to pay for scheduling my service appt. If you're not willing to do things online, or on your smartphone, this won't be the car for you.



The amount of moving parts in a Tesla is fraction of an ICE car. Therefore, there's considerably less to wear out or service. The business model is designed to make profit on the SALE of the car, not the downstream service costs. (speaking to you BMW/Audi/VAG/Merc).



There's no price negotiating, no salespeople (with desks, salaries and commissions to cover), no "finance manager". You buy online before you enter dealer. Versus traditional, there's significantly smaller real estate footprint with only one location in many US cities (excluding malls). Inventory (and associated carrying costs) is limited and usually your car must be ordered in advance.



Does something seem wrong with your car? They'll login via satellite and diagnose, with no dealer visit and resulting $100 diagnosis fee. Last week's over the air software update now has the car recognizing trash cans and traffic cones. No bricks and mortar required.



There's NO advertising and marketing. There's no brochures and there's no costs for these either.



I'm no Elon fanboy, and cringe when people view him as the God he isn't. However, every day I scratch my head, puzzled why it took someone with ZERO car industry experience to completely upend it. Tesla has thousands of bright and dedicated employees who have made this company a success. I choose to give them the credit.



It's undeniable that Tesla has changed the car industry permanently, likely for the better.



We should be copying Tesla's model in other industries: Reduced visits to hospitals would benefit us all, especially these days. We should be prioritizing scalable medical technology that can deliver better results with smaller footprints. Same is true with education. No longer needed are $250 million capital campaigns to build a new campus or building. Universities, bastions of liberal thought, continue to ignore this inevitability.


The nearest Tesla service center for me is 40 miles away, through a lot of traffic, and I live in the Bay Area. That alone would keep me from buying a Tesla. I believe in having dealer service within a 5 mile radius of home.

[mistermo]

When Tesla can beat the build quality of a ~$23,000 VW Golf, I'll get on board.

I've had two Audis, and countless VWs all far nicer than a $23K Golf. There's no comparison between these and the two Tesla's I've had. Simply no comparison. I'll stop there.

If there is ONE SINGLE THING that electric cars need to be viable it's a standardized charging system. We use two different types of fossil fuels (ignoring fleet vehicles) and they come out of two different types of connectors that are universal throughout the entire world. Why this was ignored is about as senseless as Musk.

I happen to agree, but it's not that black and white. It's kinda like saying that to be viable, mobile phones need one type of charging cable. Think outside the box. How many gas stations would exist if you could "fill up" at home, as most EVs do?

Two different types of fossil fuels, but one type of electricity. Nearly any EV can pull up to a charger in town and get juice, with adapters. That's not the issue. The limitation is the prevalence of chargers outside of cities, and the rate of charge. For now, Tesla has the only charger network that's widely available outside cities, and can recharge at a fast rate. It's a HUGE competitive advantage and normally overlooked because people are fixated on the cars, not the network supporting them.

Gas stations and Big Gulps are becoming things of nostalgia. By the time we die, self driving cars will exist and there will be cheaper and more efficient alternatives to car ownership. With no more car ownership, parking lots will disappear too.

[mistermo]

The nearest Tesla service center for me is 40 miles away, through a lot of traffic, and I live in the Bay Area. That alone would keep me from buying a Tesla. I believe in having dealer service within a 5 mile radius of home.

You need service w/i five miles because you need service. With only 20-25% of the moving parts of a ICE car, there's far less need for service. Tesla makes $ on the sale of the car, not the future service revenue. For sure nothing lasts forever and someday your car would need service of some sort. Tesla is at the forefront of at-your-door service too. With fewer parts, they can toss them on the truck and do it at your house or office.

For kicks, list the things your car has seen service for. Now see if that list would apply to a Tesla. I did this exercise and realized I was thinking inside a box. For the most recent Audi, I had switches that seemed to burn out with the seasons. There's nearly zero switches in a Model 3. Almost every ICE service I'd had over recent years wouldn't have applied to a Tesla.

[Smitty2k1]

In most every category, Tesla's business model is different, from selling in malls, to no franchises, to the buying and servicing experiences, to lack of advertising.

Everything that doesn't add value has been stripped from the ownership process and resulting costs mitigated. What's left is a pleasant experience of vehicle ownership.

For service (I accidentally broke side mirror), one registers online and they offer time slots. Everything had been ordered and ready when I arrived for mirror replacement. Quick in, quick out. There is no number to call and nobody to pay for scheduling my service appt. If you're not willing to do things online, or on your smartphone, this won't be the car for you.

The amount of moving parts in a Tesla is fraction of an ICE car. Therefore, there's considerably less to wear out or service. The business model is designed to make profit on the SALE of the car, not the downstream service costs. (speaking to you BMW/Audi/VAG/Merc).

There's no price negotiating, no salespeople (with desks, salaries and commissions to cover), no "finance manager". You buy online before you enter dealer. Versus traditional, there's significantly smaller real estate footprint with only one location in many US cities (excluding malls). Inventory (and associated carrying costs) is limited and usually your car must be ordered in advance.

Does something seem wrong with your car? They'll login via satellite and diagnose, with no dealer visit and resulting $100 diagnosis fee. Last week's over the air software update now has the car recognizing trash cans and traffic cones. No bricks and mortar required.

There's NO advertising and marketing. There's no brochures and there's no costs for these either.

I'm no Elon fanboy, and cringe when people view him as the God he isn't. However, every day I scratch my head, puzzled why it took someone with ZERO car industry experience to completely upend it. Tesla has thousands of bright and dedicated employees who have made this company a success. I choose to give them the credit.

It's undeniable that Tesla has changed the car industry permanently, likely for the better.

We should be copying Tesla's model in other industries: Reduced visits to hospitals would benefit us all, especially these days. We should be prioritizing scalable medical technology that can deliver better results with smaller footprints. Same is true with education. No longer needed are $250 million capital campaigns to build a new campus or building. Universities, bastions of liberal thought, continue to ignore this inevitability.

Well explained, I do like a lot of what Tesla is doing, but the Elon-centric culture drives me batty

[Smitty2k1]

Most, at least around these parts in Indianapolis, drive themselves or the family to Chicago or other nearby cities (Cincinnati, Columbus, St Louis, Louisville). It's rare that someone would fly to these places rather than drive.

Most EV car owners have a charger in their garage, that adds ~20-25 miles of range every hour, and start the day with a "full tank". There's gobs of universal EV chargers around (mostly in cities) that also add ~25 miles of range per hour. These can be used by Tesla, GM, Nissan...anyone. If all you want to do is drive around your city, then most any EV car will fill that need.

However, if one wants to venture outside their city for a trip, recharging at the rate of 25/miles per hour is far too time consuming. And good luck finding a charger along the highway to Chicago in Winimac, IN. The ONLY solution to this has come from Tesla with the supercharger network. It's proprietary, only for Tesla. Recharging can occur at rates up to 600miles of range per hour, though it varies. These stations are spaced along the highway system so that one can travel to most major places in the US, and "fill up", along the way, in a reasonable amount of time.

My buddy drives his daughter to school in Boulder, from Indianapolis. Hauling her college gear isn't practical in an airplane. With Tesla network, he can recharge in the middle of Kansas, en route to Boulder. Apart from Tesla, NO other EV company has a system that permits this.

Yeah at home "level 1" 120v/220v charging is pretty slow, I thought more of the public non-Tesla chargers were on faster "level 2" DC charging. I'll have to explore that map a bit more and see what I can filter out for the faster ones.

[MikeD]

You need service w/i five miles because you need service. With only 20-25% of the moving parts of a ICE car, there's far less need for service. Tesla makes $ on the sale of the car, not the future service revenue. For sure nothing lasts forever and someday your car would need service of some sort. Tesla is at the forefront of at-your-door service too. With fewer parts, they can toss them on the truck and do it at your house or office.



For kicks, list the things your car has seen service for. Now see if that list would apply to a Tesla. I did this exercise and realized I was thinking inside a box. For the most recent Audi, I had switches that seemed to burn out with the seasons. There's nearly zero switches in a Model 3. Almost every ICE service I'd had over recent years wouldn't have applied to a Tesla.


Here's a quote from Consumers Reports:

Consumer Reports can no longer recommend the newest Tesla—the Model 3 electric sedan—because members say they’ve identified a number of problems with their cars, including issues with its body hardware, as well as paint and trim. CR members reported these results in our annual reliability survey, which includes data on about 470,000 vehicles.

I agree that there would seem to be less to go wrong or be routinely maintained with a Tesla, but brakes, suspension, tires, etc. wear out and electronics and other parts can fail.

[FlashUNC]

In most every category, Tesla's business model is different, from selling in malls, to no franchises, to the buying and servicing experiences, to lack of advertising.

Everything that doesn't add value has been stripped from the ownership process and resulting costs mitigated. What's left is a pleasant experience of vehicle ownership.

For service (I accidentally broke side mirror), one registers online and they offer time slots. Everything had been ordered and ready when I arrived for mirror replacement. Quick in, quick out. There is no number to call and nobody to pay for scheduling my service appt. If you're not willing to do things online, or on your smartphone, this won't be the car for you.

The amount of moving parts in a Tesla is fraction of an ICE car. Therefore, there's considerably less to wear out or service. The business model is designed to make profit on the SALE of the car, not the downstream service costs. (speaking to you BMW/Audi/VAG/Merc).

There's no price negotiating, no salespeople (with desks, salaries and commissions to cover), no "finance manager". You buy online before you enter dealer. Versus traditional, there's significantly smaller real estate footprint with only one location in many US cities (excluding malls). Inventory (and associated carrying costs) is limited and usually your car must be ordered in advance.

Does something seem wrong with your car? They'll login via satellite and diagnose, with no dealer visit and resulting $100 diagnosis fee. Last week's over the air software update now has the car recognizing trash cans and traffic cones. No bricks and mortar required.

There's NO advertising and marketing. There's no brochures and there's no costs for these either.

I'm no Elon fanboy, and cringe when people view him as the God he isn't. However, every day I scratch my head, puzzled why it took someone with ZERO car industry experience to completely upend it. Tesla has thousands of bright and dedicated employees who have made this company a success. I choose to give them the credit.

It's undeniable that Tesla has changed the car industry permanently, likely for the better.

We should be copying Tesla's model in other industries: Reduced visits to hospitals would benefit us all, especially these days. We should be prioritizing scalable medical technology that can deliver better results with smaller footprints. Same is true with education. No longer needed are $250 million capital campaigns to build a new campus or building. Universities, bastions of liberal thought, continue to ignore this inevitability.

Another perk of Tesla's remote diagnosis is they can remove features from used cars that are sold at their own whim. Because they own the software, not the car owner. Nice grift they've got there.

https://jalopnik.com/teslas-removal-of-features-on-used-cars-appears-to-be-i-1842382846

[mistermo]

Another perk of Tesla's remote diagnosis is they can remove features from used cars that are sold at their own whim. Because they own the software, not the car owner. Nice grift they've got there.

https://jalopnik.com/teslas-removal-of-features-on-used-cars-appears-to-be-i-1842382846

Aren't we used to this by now? It's exactly like buying a used iphone or laptop. When you buy used, you're not buying the previous owner's apps and software licenses.

[Andy sti]

The nearest Tesla service center for me is 40 miles away, through a lot of traffic, and I live in the Bay Area. That alone would keep me from buying a Tesla. I believe in having dealer service within a 5 mile radius of home.

Out of all the posts in this thread this seems the most interesting. I have never thought about proximity to a car dealership as an important part of my purchasing decision. Can you explain your reasoning?

[benb]

Out of all the posts in this thread this seems the most interesting. I have never thought about proximity to a car dealership as an important part of my purchasing decision. Can you explain your reasoning?

If you drive a lot particularly with a gas car, and even more particularly with one like a fancy luxury car that is needy/fussy on maintenance having to drive 40 miles to wait around at a service center is a pain. Some places have shuttles and such but they're not going to drive you 40 miles with their shuttle. It makes sense to me.

I'm not sure how relevant this is to Tesla though since there aren't that many service appointments on EVs and if the car breaks they tend to come to you to fix it.

For anyone who has a Tesla.. do they get pissy if you just take your Tesla to get new tires at a tire shop as opposed to having to let them do it?

I suppose this is a city person question though, lots of people in rural areas will have to drive a decent distance for service no matter what kind of car they buy.

[Bostic]

Out of all the posts in this thread this seems the most interesting. I have never thought about proximity to a car dealership as an important part of my purchasing decision. Can you explain your reasoning?

I owned a Taurus Wagon for 10 years. It didn't have a lot of issues but regular maintenance was a hassle. The dealerships in my area (Sunnyvale, San Jose) it was not convenient and the size of the service center meant the time without the vehicle dragged on.

Counter this to the Honda Odyssey Minivan I have had for almost 7 years. The amount of Honda dealerships and how fast they perform the work, it's night and day. If I were a mechanic and could do vehicle maintenance myself I might think differently. I'm not though and the mantra "What is your time worth" means a lot to me.

[fiamme red]

The mayor of Tulsa is trying hard to woo Tesla:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-tulsa-oklahoma-elon-musk-cybertruck-factory/

It appears that in his campaign to convince Musk to move to Oklahoma, Bynum is promising to utilize the Cybertrucks if they are manufactured locally in Tulsa.

In another post, Bynum said while he can't "comment on potential projects," he believes "Tesla and Tulsa were forged in the same spirit."

[cmg]

"they’ve identified a number of problems with their cars, including issues with its body hardware, as well as paint and trim. CR members reported these results in our annual reliability survey, which includes data on about 470,000 vehicles."

So your not going to buy a used Tesla because of reports of body panels? what a problem to have. In 10 years junk yards are going to be stripping wrecked Tesla's and grafting the parts onto former ICE vehicles except for the questionable body panels. There's going to be more modified electric's than what is being manufactured. Similar to this https://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=40

[FlashUNC]

Aren't we used to this by now? It's exactly like buying a used iphone or laptop. When you buy used, you're not buying the previous owner's apps and software licenses.

Except autopilot and their driving modes are pretty foundational and one of the big reasons people buy Teslas. And if it's on the build sheet when it left the factory to the original owner, why isn't it available to the person buying it second hand -- especially when they're buying it in part because those features are on it?

Either they're a car company or they're a software company. Can't have it both ways.

[Tickdoc]

Out of all the posts in this thread this seems the most interesting. I have never thought about proximity to a car dealership as an important part of my purchasing decision. Can you explain your reasoning?


Always been a big factor for me. I want a dealer that has good service and gives me a loaner, and is not to far from my house. Having to take the car and wait for a shuttle or have someone bring you across town is just the worst.

[BobbyJones]

No longer startup. Telsa is profitable (https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/29/business/tesla-earnings/index.html)

Noted. It may be prudent to wait another year or two before the victory lap. Or maybe 5.

[BobbyJones]

Dupe!

[mistermo]

Except autopilot and their driving modes are pretty foundational and one of the big reasons people buy Teslas. And if it's on the build sheet when it left the factory to the original owner, why isn't it available to the person buying it second hand -- especially when they're buying it in part because those features are on it?

Either they're a car company or they're a software company. Can't have it both ways.

This is where you are mistaken. These items are NOT on the build sheet when they left the factory. They are software upgrades "purchased" by the owner. Autopilot is now standard and IS on the build sheet. There was a time when that wasn't the case. Now it is.

And yes, they are a software company AND a car company. Their cars have an OS just like a cell phone and the OS gets better and better over time.

Think Motorola Razr vs iPhone. Audi (or pick another) is Razr, and Tesla is iPhone. When you buy a Razr, that's it, no further updates. When you buy an iPhone, you can add apps, and the OS gets better over time. When you sell it, the OS transfers, but the add ons don't.

This is the new model of digital business. It's true for laptops, tablets, ERP systems, Nintendo, Xbox, even your Wahoo Kickr won't transfer to new owner with added software purchases made by you.

[mistermo]

Noted. It may be prudent to wait another year or two before the victory lap. Or maybe 5.

Understood as well. However, the Model Y should outsell the Model 3 which is now the #8 selling car in US. Tesla has invested heavily in infrastructure and this is a business subject to economies of scale. Barring a radical surprise, like a worldwide flu pandemic and depression, things will only get better. Another interesting data point:

[mistermo]

Always been a big factor for me. I want a dealer that has good service and gives me a loaner, and is not to far from my house. Having to take the car and wait for a shuttle or have someone bring you across town is just the worst.

If you are on a first name basis with the guy in the service department, it's time to look for a new car. :)

[saab2000]

This is where you are mistaken. These items are NOT on the build sheet when they left the factory. They are software upgrades "purchased" by the owner. Autopilot is now standard and IS on the build sheet. There was a time when that wasn't the case. Now it is.

And yes, they are a software company AND a car company. Their cars have an OS just like a cell phone and the OS gets better and better over time.

Think Motorola Razr vs iPhone. Audi (or pick another) is Razr, and Tesla is iPhone. When you buy a Razr, that's it, no further updates. When you buy an iPhone, you can add apps, and the OS gets better over time. When you sell it, the OS transfers, but the add ons don't.

This is the new model of digital business. It's true for laptops, tablets, ERP systems, Nintendo, Xbox, even your Wahoo Kickr won't transfer to new owner with added software purchases made by you.

I see it as a bit fuzzier than this. Tesla doesn't allow aftermarket software on their cars AFAIK.

The Full Self Driving option is expensive and I would assume that if it's paid for and activated it should stay with the car when sold or stay with the owner if the first owner buys a new Tesla. But I'm not sure it should just go away if the first owner sells the car.

This will ultimately be litigated at some level. I'm certainly no expert on anything like this but I would think that if I buy a Tesla and pay for a software upgrade like the Full Self Driving that it is then part of the car. It's not like an app.

The parallel of an Apple device or an Android device isn't really accurate because both will regularly receive software updates over time, just like the Tesla does.

If someone pays $7000 for the Full Self Driving it should either stay with the car (raising that car's value) or stay with the purchaser for another Tesla, maintaining some value for the original buyer. At least that makes sense for me.

If I were a Tesla customer I'm not sure it's a feature I'd pay for, but that's just me. It's not even fully active yet and I'm not ready to trust it either. But I know it's coming.

[Tickdoc]

If you are on a first name basis with the guy in the service department, it's time to look for a new car. :)

Mike is my bud....but he retired this year. He was my service guy at BMW and then I bought a Mercedes and he switched after 20 yrs to the Mercedes dealer. Was a happy day when I came in and saw him behind the desk. Always worked hard to get me a deal on parts and we would sit and just chat about cars.

I can't say that any of the cars I've owned over the years required more or less service than any other (with the exception of land rover, but we won't get into that ;), but the dealer service experience always made the difference. Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Subaru, BMW, Mercedes, and now Ford. All need parts from time to time, but a free loaner and a convenient drop off from BMW and Mercedes always made it better.

Owning a Tesla here would be as bad as a Ferrari. I don't want my dealer to be four hours away.

[mistermo]

I see it as a bit fuzzier than this. Tesla doesn't allow aftermarket software on their cars AFAIK.

The Full Self Driving option is expensive and I would assume that if it's paid for and activated it should stay with the car when sold or stay with the owner if the first owner buys a new Tesla. But I'm not sure it should just go away if the first owner sells the car.

This will ultimately be litigated at some level. I'm certainly no expert on anything like this but I would think that if I buy a Tesla and pay for a software upgrade like the Full Self Driving that it is then part of the car. It's not like an app.

The parallel of an Apple device or an Android device isn't really accurate because both will regularly receive software updates over time, just like the Tesla does.

If someone pays $7000 for the Full Self Driving it should either stay with the car (raising that car's value) or stay with the purchaser for another Tesla, maintaining some value for the original buyer. At least that makes sense for me.

If I were a Tesla customer I'm not sure it's a feature I'd pay for, but that's just me. It's not even fully active yet and I'm not ready to trust it either. But I know it's coming.

I see where you're coming from, and as you point out, there's some fuzziness. Lot's of this is conjecture since there's no full self driving yet and it's likely farther away that Elon admits. Autopilot, when I got mine, was a software upgrade, I paid for. Now it's standard. I don't get a refund and won't ask. That's life. Today, there's a software based performance upgrade that a work colleague is considering buying for a couple K. I would like to see this or any update remain with the car, but hey, I can see the company rationale that HE bought the software license specific HIS car, not the next owner.

As of today, Tesla's OS is locked, however there's other apps, Spotify for example, that are embedded.

Not sure why the example of Apple and Android aren't relevant because they, like Tesla, get OS upgrades that enhance owner experience. One of the best examples of this is the OS upgrade that allows me to record video on a thumb drive while driving. Three camera recording. There's others too. Besides being electric, and the supercharger network, the other distinguishing factor of these cars is the sophisticated software behind them.

Before this, I was a driver who preferred the analog experience. On my last VW, I removed the auto transmission and had a manual installed. I preferred gauges, buttons and dials. I wasn't sure I'd like a Tesla, but I'm a convert and will never go back to ICE.

[tuxbailey]

I see it as a bit fuzzier than this. Tesla doesn't allow aftermarket software on their cars AFAIK.

The Full Self Driving option is expensive and I would assume that if it's paid for and activated it should stay with the car when sold or stay with the owner if the first owner buys a new Tesla. But I'm not sure it should just go away if the first owner sells the car.

This will ultimately be litigated at some level. I'm certainly no expert on anything like this but I would think that if I buy a Tesla and pay for a software upgrade like the Full Self Driving that it is then part of the car. It's not like an app.

The parallel of an Apple device or an Android device isn't really accurate because both will regularly receive software updates over time, just like the Tesla does.

If someone pays $7000 for the Full Self Driving it should either stay with the car (raising that car's value) or stay with the purchaser for another Tesla, maintaining some value for the original buyer. At least that makes sense for me.

If I were a Tesla customer I'm not sure it's a feature I'd pay for, but that's just me. It's not even fully active yet and I'm not ready to trust it either. But I know it's coming.


Not sure about that. It depends how the licensing of the software is. If the autopilot is only licensed to the original purchaser and only valid while the owner owns the car, then Tesla can surely removed it if a new owner register the car.

[saab2000]

Not sure about that. It depends how the licensing of the software is. If the autopilot is only licensed to the original purchaser and only valid while the owner owns the car, then Tesla can surely removed it if a new owner register the car.

Good points. I’m just a car buff thinking out loud. Ultimately lawyers decide everything and I’m sure Tesla has smart ones.

There’s surely precedence wrt companies like Apple, Microsoft, Google, etc.

[benb]

Tesla stepped in doo-doo once already with the software purchase model for autopilot/full-self-driving.

There was a guy who purchased a used car and it was promised to him and then the full self-driving was turned off.

It's a weird model, but my guess is they're still spending massive $$,$$$,$$$,$$$s on finishing the self driving and they see charging for it as a software feature as a way to finance that work.

I'm fine with that but it does feel like it should transfer to the new owner if it's a one time fee in the thousands.

If they were to make it a monthly charge to use full self driving that'd be fair too, but then people wouldn't be able to roll it into loans.

It's still better either way than the typical model of "maybe kinda finish the software in the car, never fix it once the car sells."

[FriarQuade]

I've had two Audis, and countless VWs all far nicer than a $23K Golf. There's no comparison between these and the two Tesla's I've had. Simply no comparison. I'll stop there.



I happen to agree, but it's not that black and white. It's kinda like saying that to be viable, mobile phones need one type of charging cable. Think outside the box. How many gas stations would exist if you could "fill up" at home, as most EVs do?

Two different types of fossil fuels, but one type of electricity. Nearly any EV can pull up to a charger in town and get juice, with adapters. That's not the issue. The limitation is the prevalence of chargers outside of cities, and the rate of charge. For now, Tesla has the only charger network that's widely available outside cities, and can recharge at a fast rate. It's a HUGE competitive advantage and normally overlooked because people are fixated on the cars, not the network supporting them.

Gas stations and Big Gulps are becoming things of nostalgia. By the time we die, self driving cars will exist and there will be cheaper and more efficient alternatives to car ownership. With no more car ownership, parking lots will disappear too.


A luxury car a Golf isn't. BUT all the panels line up with gaps that make ze Germans happy and they don't fall apart. But if you want to buy a car from a tech company who's no doubt going to chase Apple in the art of engineered obsolescence, be my guest.

[bfd]

Mike is my bud....but he retired this year. He was my service guy at BMW and then I bought a Mercedes and he switched after 20 yrs to the Mercedes dealer. Was a happy day when I came in and saw him behind the desk. Always worked hard to get me a deal on parts and we would sit and just chat about cars.

I can't say that any of the cars I've owned over the years required more or less service than any other (with the exception of land rover, but we won't get into that ;), but the dealer service experience always made the difference. Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Subaru, BMW, Mercedes, and now Ford. All need parts from time to time, but a free loaner and a convenient drop off from BMW and Mercedes always made it better.

Owning a Tesla here would be as bad as a Ferrari. I don't want my dealer to be four hours away.

One advantage of Tesla over almost every other auto mfr is they offer Over The Air (OTA) updates.i know others like Ford, VW/Porsche/Audi and more are promising it, but I believe Tesla is the only one currently doing it. So you don’t really need to go to a dealer, except for when you need your body panels aligned or something like that...of course, YMMV!

Good Luck!

[oldpotatoe]

You live in Boulder, right? I'd say all the people out here in The West paying $50k+ for a 4wd Toyota 4Runner or Tacoma that never hits dirt would be great candidates for the Tesla Truck.

I do but the republic isn't 'truck country'..my bro-in-law works at a ford dealership in Denver and they sell trucks at a 5-6to1 ratio to even SUVs..
As for the Japanese offerings, they continue to lag far behind Detroit's iron in the segment. Nissan in particular is in deep trouble with its Titan, which logged just 31,514 sales for all of 2019 and represents a 37.5-percent decline from the previous year. Toyota Tundra sales were down 5.6 percent for 2019 with 111,673 units sold, but that's still less than half the F-Series sales Ford typically sees in a month.


https://www.motor1.com/news/391355/full-size-truck-sales-2019/

[mistermo]

A luxury car a Golf isn't. BUT all the panels line up with gaps that make ze Germans happy and they don't fall apart. But if you want to buy a car from a tech company who's no doubt going to chase Apple in the art of engineered obsolescence, be my guest.

I LOVE VWs, have had many, still have one, but they DO fall apart and are expensive to repair.

The Model S is mostly unchanged since it's introduction, close to ten years ago. Name another car company who has a 10yr old model that's still competitive, let alone the segment leader? Engineered obsolescence?

[benb]

I LOVE VWs, have had many, still have one, but they DO fall apart and are expensive to repair.

The Model S is mostly unchanged since it's introduction, close to ten years ago. Name another car company who has a 10yr old model that's still competitive, let alone the segment leader, in the marketplace? Engineered obsolescence?

Yah statistically VWs fall apart and if you don't like repairing them you stay away from them.

The Model S has changed more than people think.. it hasn't gotten a complete exterior design but that is window dressing. Most auto manufacturers spend a lot of time redesigning the exterior of cars to make people feel like they have to replace their car more often cause it looks dated.

But the Model S has had a lot of changes to the internal stuff that matters. They just don't really call stuff out and call it a new model.

The rollout of the "Raven" drivetrain about a year ago was a very major change.

The current long range AWD car is 391 miles of range, it's a good 30% improvement over 10 years ago, not that many cars have improved power & efficiency like that in the last 10 years.

Not many manufacturers would have done the "Raven" thing where they switch to a completely new motor design without also making a complete new exterior redesign and trumpeting it as "all new".

[Monsieur Toast]

I do but the republic isn't 'truck country'..my bro-in-law works at a ford dealership in Denver and they sell trucks at a 5-6to1 ratio to even SUVs..
https://www.motor1.com/news/391355/full-size-truck-sales-2019/


Tesla manufactured & sold a little over 350,000 vehicles across all their lines in 2019. I think for initial rollout, they're okay with trying to produce & sell as many Tesla Trucks in the quantities that Toyota does. Not Ford, etc.

[fiamme red]

The mayor of Tulsa is trying hard to woo Tesla:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-tulsa-oklahoma-elon-musk-cybertruck-factory/And he gets even more desperate:

https://www.thedrive.com/news/33596/tulsa-erects-giant-tribute-to-elon-musk-in-hopes-of-luring-next-tesla-plant

"It's official: the fifth-tallest statue in the entire United States is now a gigantic Elon Musk—seriously."

[William]

And he gets even more desperate:

https://www.thedrive.com/news/33596/tulsa-erects-giant-tribute-to-elon-musk-in-hopes-of-luring-next-tesla-plant

"It's official: the fifth-tallest statue in the entire United States is now a gigantic Elon Musk—seriously."


The efforts to transform the Driller statue comes from two groups: Tesla Owners Club of Oklahoma and Tulsa for Tesla, both of which are using the opportunity to not only promote the Tesla brand but also to gain national attention in a bidding attempt for an all-new Tesla production facility.

Hey, working to bring jobs to their area.








W.

[pasadena]

over the air updates are getting common on many cars nowadays. It's become a necessity with the mediocre, buggy oem infotainment systems.
for example, even Mazda 3's have ota updating
One advantage of Tesla over almost every other auto mfr is they offer Over The Air (OTA) updates.i know others like Ford, VW/Porsche/Audi and more are promising it, but I believe Tesla is the only one currently doing it. So you don’t really need to go to a dealer, except for when you need your body panels aligned or something like that...of course, YMMV!

Good Luck!

VAG cars are okay but VW's will fall apart and the reliability record is avg at best. All mainstream cars are now engineered obsolete by virtue of their infotainment systems. The Germans doubled down and are the worst case-in 5 years, an infotainment failure will total the car.
I'm not biased either, we have been loyal Audi/VW owners for decades. I know the cars.

A luxury car a Golf isn't. BUT all the panels line up with gaps that make ze Germans happy and they don't fall apart. But if you want to buy a car from a tech company who's no doubt going to chase Apple in the art of engineered obsolescence, be my guest.

Tesla is proactively shutting off supercharging and other paid-for features like Autopilot on non-orig owner cars.
2nd owners will have to pay to add those features back on.

Tesla stepped in doo-doo once already with the software purchase model for autopilot/full-self-driving.

There was a guy who purchased a used car and it was promised to him and then the full self-driving was turned off.

It's a weird model, but my guess is they're still spending massive $$,$$$,$$$,$$$s on finishing the self driving and they see charging for it as a software feature as a way to finance that work.

I'm fine with that but it does feel like it should transfer to the new owner if it's a one time fee in the thousands.

If they were to make it a monthly charge to use full self driving that'd be fair too, but then people wouldn't be able to roll it into loans.

It's still better either way than the typical model of "maybe kinda finish the software in the car, never fix it once the car sells."

I see it as a bit fuzzier than this. Tesla doesn't allow aftermarket software on their cars AFAIK.

The Full Self Driving option is expensive and I would assume that if it's paid for and activated it should stay with the car when sold or stay with the owner if the first owner buys a new Tesla. But I'm not sure it should just go away if the first owner sells the car.

This will ultimately be litigated at some level. I'm certainly no expert on anything like this but I would think that if I buy a Tesla and pay for a software upgrade like the Full Self Driving that it is then part of the car. It's not like an app.

The parallel of an Apple device or an Android device isn't really accurate because both will regularly receive software updates over time, just like the Tesla does.

If someone pays $7000 for the Full Self Driving it should either stay with the car (raising that car's value) or stay with the purchaser for another Tesla, maintaining some value for the original buyer. At least that makes sense for me.

If I were a Tesla customer I'm not sure it's a feature I'd pay for, but that's just me. It's not even fully active yet and I'm not ready to trust it either. But I know it's coming.

[Tickdoc]

Hey, working to bring jobs to their area.








W.

Uggh. Almost posted this but then I didn't want to bring any more attention to it. It's also not the first time the statue has been defaced.

fun fact; a patient of mine's father was the model for the golden driller statue. He was a true Oklahoma oilman/rig operator.

[Monsieur Toast]

And he gets even more desperate:

https://www.thedrive.com/news/33596/tulsa-erects-giant-tribute-to-elon-musk-in-hopes-of-luring-next-tesla-plant

"It's official: the fifth-tallest statue in the entire United States is now a gigantic Elon Musk—seriously."


I think the DeLorean in the picture was a nice (prescient?) touch.

[zap]

edit


Tesla is proactively shutting off supercharging and other paid-for features like Autopilot on non-orig owner cars.
2nd owners will have to pay to add those features back on.

I just took a quick look at used Tesla Model S's.......first two I looked at stated in writing that autopilot is included with the vehicle.

Further research indicated that features such as Autopilot have been restored after second owners raised hell after purchasing used vehicles advertised as having autopilot or other "upgrades". Seems like Tesla employees earlier this year did not understand what was going on.

If I as an owner of a vehicle purchase upgrades I want the upgrades to stay with the car in order to make the vehicle more attractive for resale and to recoup (maybe) some of the cost.

Another example why I would not purchase a Tesla...unreliability, ugly interiors, attempting to snitch upgrades....

[pasadena]

The one high profile case that autopilot was restored, was Tesla selling to a dealer without deactivating options first.

In the case of a private party sale (even if you paid extra for supercharging and autopilot), those features will be deactivated once a 2nd owner touches a supercharger or visits a dealer.

Autopilot and Supercharging options are sold to the owner not the vehicle.
Though I believe supercharging is now free on new Model S and X.


edit



I just took a quick look at used Tesla Model S's.......first two I looked at stated in writing that autopilot is included with the vehicle.

Further research indicated that features such as Autopilot have been restored after second owners raised hell after purchasing used vehicles advertised as having autopilot or other "upgrades". Seems like Tesla employees earlier this year did not understand what was going on.

If I as an owner of a vehicle purchase upgrades I want the upgrades to stay with the car in order to make the vehicle more attractive for resale and to recoup (maybe) some of the cost.

Another example why I would not purchase a Tesla...unreliability, ugly interiors, attempting to snitch upgrades....

[William]

And he gets even more desperate:

https://www.thedrive.com/news/33596/tulsa-erects-giant-tribute-to-elon-musk-in-hopes-of-luring-next-tesla-plant

"It's official: the fifth-tallest statue in the entire United States is now a gigantic Elon Musk—seriously."


Good thing Jamestown ND Tesla Club isn't trying to get Tesla to relocate there...I would hate to see what the World's Largest Buffalo would look like if they tried to make it look like Elon Musk.:banana:







W.

[Tickdoc]

Good thing Jamestown ND Tesla Club isn't trying to get Tesla to relocate there...I would hate to see what the World's Largest Buffalo would look like if they tried to make it look like Elon Musk.:banana:







W.


Just put his face on the back of it and it should look fine.

[William]

Just put his face on the back of it and it should look fine.

Well, which ever end you put it on I'm sure there are many communities that would appreciate the job opportunities.







W.

[pasadena]

word
Tesla is an American car company. They have faults but they are creating an American product that is an industry leader and creating jobs here.

Well, which ever end you put it on I'm sure there are many communities that would appreciate the job opportunities.







W.

[fiamme red]

Good thing Jamestown ND Tesla Club isn't trying to get Tesla to relocate there...I would hate to see what the World's Largest Buffalo would look like if they tried to make it look like Elon Musk.:banana:That's easy, they would just make it look like a musk-ox. :)

https://www.travelweekly.com/uploadedImages/All_TW_Art/2019/1223/T1223MUSKOXFARM2_C_HR.jpg?n=9590&origwidth=1540&origheight=866&origmode=crop&Anchor=MiddleCenter&width=780&height=440&scale=both&mode=crop

[William]

That's easy, they would just make it look like a musk-ox. :)

https://www.travelweekly.com/uploadedImages/All_TW_Art/2019/1223/T1223MUSKOXFARM2_C_HR.jpg?n=9590&origwidth=1540&origheight=866&origmode=crop&Anchor=MiddleCenter&width=780&height=440&scale=both&mode=crop


Touché!:D





W.

[William]

word
Tesla is an American car company. They have faults but they are creating an American product that is an industry leader and creating jobs here.

Yup, good point.




W.

[cmg]

As reported this morning. https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/article/Tesla-picks-Texas-site-for-second-US-vehicle-15427039.php

Electric car maker Tesla Inc. has picked the Austin, Texas, area as the site for its largest auto assembly plant employing at least 5,000 workers.

The new factory will build Tesla’s upcoming Cybertruck pickup and will be a second U.S. manufacturing site for the Model Y small SUV, largely for distribution to the East Coast.

Tesla will build on a 2,100-acre (85-hectacre) site in Travis County near Austin and will get more than $60 million in tax breaks from the county and a local school district over the next decade. Work on the plant, which will be over 4 million square feet, is already underway.

So Austin tax payers foot the $60 million carpet bagger bill and pay Tesla to come and play. 10 Years from now they'll relocate to somewhere else that offers a better deal, Oklahoma watch out.

[Big Dan]

Selling carbon credits is what they do best.

[Tickdoc]

As reported this morning. https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/article/Tesla-picks-Texas-site-for-second-US-vehicle-15427039.php

Electric car maker Tesla Inc. has picked the Austin, Texas, area as the site for its largest auto assembly plant employing at least 5,000 workers.

The new factory will build Tesla’s upcoming Cybertruck pickup and will be a second U.S. manufacturing site for the Model Y small SUV, largely for distribution to the East Coast.

Tesla will build on a 2,100-acre (85-hectacre) site in Travis County near Austin and will get more than $60 million in tax breaks from the county and a local school district over the next decade. Work on the plant, which will be over 4 million square feet, is already underway.

So Austin tax payers foot the $60 million carpet bagger bill and pay Tesla to come and play. 10 Years from now they'll relocate to somewhere else that offers a better deal, Oklahoma watch out.


Tesla in Tulsa had a great ring to it, but I'm SO glad they are not coming. I have to speak that in hushed tones here after all the hooplah the local tesla Addicts went through to attract attention. They painted a local landmark with a Tesla logo, they held tesla car rallies, the mayor made passionate speeches...but the Governor did not bend over for them in the end so they went elsewhere...whew!

[Monsieur Toast]

Texas is big. Hoping they can take Tesla's operations away from the great(ish, not really) state of Nevaduh as well.

[Wattvagen]

Tesla in Tulsa had a great ring to it, but I'm SO glad they are not coming. I have to speak that in hushed tones here after all the hooplah the local tesla Addicts went through to attract attention. They painted a local landmark with a Tesla logo, they held tesla car rallies, the mayor made passionate speeches...but the Governor did not bend over for them in the end so they went elsewhere...whew!

Serious question: Do you think you would feel differently if you were out of work right now and with a skillset that is roughly compatible with what tesla does?

[Tickdoc]

Serious question: Do you think you would feel differently if you were out of work right now and with a skillset that is roughly compatible with what tesla does?

Probably yes, but if I was in that situation I would not live here and would be looking to live in a place where those jobs are.

[BobbyJones]

Selling carbon credits is what they do best.

I hadn’t been paying attention to the Tesla numbers lately... shocked to hear a report today that they’re still showing profit off of regulatory credits. Also interesting to hear they’re delivering vehicles at half capacity.

[rnhood]

And their stock price is at an all time high. And JD Powers show a high customer satisfaction, while they show Tesla near the bottom in quality. Hate to understand but right now I would not want to own one. Saw a tow truck picking up one yesterday.

[CDollarsign]

Real estate in ATX is going to get even more out of control.

[mistermo]

And their stock price is at an all time high. And JD Powers show a high customer satisfaction, while they show Tesla near the bottom in quality. Hate to understand but right now I would not want to own one. Saw a tow truck picking up one yesterday.

Hard to understand the basis for JD Powers 'quality' list. Subaru, often thought to be a quality leader, is 25th. Mercedes is 28th. Audi is 30th.

The highest quality marque goes to.....drumroll......DODGE! Kia and Chevy round out the top three.

Honda and Toyota are 19th and 20th. Dodge is 20 spots higher than Toyota?!? Something doesn't add up.

My Tesla has been towed twice. Once when I parked illegally, once when I ran out of battery juice in the middle of -10d temps in winter. Both were my fault, rather than quality issues.

[jb_11]

As reported this morning. https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/article/Tesla-picks-Texas-site-for-second-US-vehicle-15427039.php

Electric car maker Tesla Inc. has picked the Austin, Texas, area as the site for its largest auto assembly plant employing at least 5,000 workers.

The new factory will build Tesla’s upcoming Cybertruck pickup and will be a second U.S. manufacturing site for the Model Y small SUV, largely for distribution to the East Coast.

Tesla will build on a 2,100-acre (85-hectacre) site in Travis County near Austin and will get more than $60 million in tax breaks from the county and a local school district over the next decade. Work on the plant, which will be over 4 million square feet, is already underway.

So Austin tax payers foot the $60 million carpet bagger bill and pay Tesla to come and play. 10 Years from now they'll relocate to somewhere else that offers a better deal, Oklahoma watch out.

How is that different then the $133 million San Antonio gave out for the Toyota truck plant in 2003? Plus additional incentives to suppliers that located there. They just approved another $10 mil for a plant expansion last year.

Also, does Tesla have a history of walking away from huge investments in production facilities when the incentives expire?

Serious questions. Not trying to be snarky.

[Tickdoc]

Hard to understand the basis for JD Powers 'quality' list. Subaru, often thought to be a quality leader, is 25th. Mercedes is 28th. Audi is 30th.

The highest quality marque goes to.....drumroll......DODGE! Kia and Chevy round out the top three.

Honda and Toyota are 19th and 20th. Dodge is 20 spots higher than Toyota?!? Something doesn't add up.

My Tesla has been towed twice. Once when I parked illegally, once when I ran out of battery juice in the middle of -10d temps in winter. Both were my fault, rather than quality issues.

The awards and rankings for initial quality only, not longevity. Even my land Rover was good for the first year.

[cmg]

How is that different then the $133 million San Antonio gave out for the Toyota truck plant in 2003? Plus additional incentives to suppliers that located there. They just approved another $10 mil for a plant expansion last year.

Always amazed at those giveaways that don't require public discussion or vote. Might be the reason why SA didn't make an offer for the Tesla plant. There wasn't any more incentives give. https://www.sacurrent.com/the-daily/archives/2019/10/09/hitched-to-the-tundra-despite-big-incentives-toyotas-san-antonio-plant-hasnt-delivered-on-all-the-jobs-it-once-promised

[mistermo]

The awards and rankings for initial quality only, not longevity. Even my land Rover was good for the first year.

Yes, exactly. Your year one good experience with Land Rover (ranked second to last), and mine with Tesla (ranked last), would suggest we are outliers vs the benchmarks of Dodge, Kia and Chevy. I've had two Teslas and have never had one, not one, single problem, I didn't cause. Friends with Teslas report the same.

I'm not trying to pick a debate, it's just that my anecdotal experience (and yours with Land Rover?) suggests something's amiss with their results, which are paradoxical. Their own data lists Tesla as #1 in owner joy, or APEAL, as they call it. One would assume a car last in year 1 'quality' wouldn't be #1 in customers' eyes during the same time. Paradox.

Another interesting data point would be the % of cars sold, by marque, bought back on the lemon law program.

[pasadena]

Tesla won't reveal info to JDP in 15 states.
JDP took info from 35 states to get Tesla's score.
Actual rating could be better, or worse, depending on what those 15 states have.

Tesla's issues mostly stem from the Model S, X and poor quality areas in the 3 (like the paint and trim, poor assembly quality). Tesla improves with each new model, so the 3 is built better than the S, for example.

*it is not a paradox to have high appeal, yet poor quality.
The enthusiasm of Tesla owners, or buying into the "gotta have it" mentality will make owners overlook many problems and still value owning a Tesla.
The car can have some problems, even leave them stranded, but still maintain loyalty to the product.

Yes, exactly. Your year one good experience with Land Rover (ranked second to last), and mine with Tesla (ranked last), would suggest we are outliers vs the benchmarks of Dodge, Kia and Chevy. I've had two Teslas and have never had one, not one, single problem, I didn't cause. Friends with Teslas report the same.

I'm not trying to pick a debate, it's just that my anecdotal experience (and yours with Land Rover?) suggests something's amiss with their results, which are paradoxical. Their own data lists Tesla as #1 in owner joy, or APEAL, as they call it. One would assume a car last in year 1 'quality' wouldn't be #1 in customers' eyes during the same time. Paradox.

Another interesting data point would be the % of cars sold, by marque, bought back on the lemon law program.

[kevinvc]

Tesla will build on a 2,100-acre (85-hectacre) site in Travis County near Austin and will get more than $60 million in tax breaks from the county and a local school district over the next decade.

This is what really chaps me. It's bad enough to take money from local governments' general funds, but allowing them to not pay taxes to the school district, which will be absorbing kids from the families of the 5,000 new employees is nauseating.

I'm sure they'll build a new high school football field and float some scholarships, but they're taking money from what's already a gravely underfunded system.

Intel is very effective at extorting money from local govs, and then have the audacity to complain about the local schools not creating graduates with the technical skills they need to compete in the modern economy.

But politicians at all levels love to be played as rubes and compete with each other over who can screw their populace the most for the benefit of the Musks and Bezos of the world.

[cmg]

It's the coercing of school districts to give up the tax base. How can they make up for loss revenue? Raise the property tax is the first step, then cut services......Not something to be so happy about.

Texas invests $8,485 per student, the report found, while the national average investment is $12,526. Texas ranks lower than Mississippi ($9,885) and Alabama ($10,142) and invests less than half of the highest-spending states like New York or Vermont.

[mistermo]

Tesla won't reveal info to JDP in 15 states.


Does this suggest these car companies self-report to JDPowers? If so, there's certainly a credibility problem with their data, as the results seem to suggest.

This is what really chaps me. It's bad enough to take money from local governments' general funds, but allowing them to not pay taxes to the school district, which will be absorbing kids from the families of the 5,000 new employees is nauseating.

I'm sure they'll build a new high school football field and float some scholarships, but they're taking money from what's already a gravely underfunded system.

Intel is very effective at extorting money from local govs, and then have the audacity to complain about the local schools not creating graduates with the technical skills they need to compete in the modern economy.

But politicians at all levels love to be played as rubes and compete with each other over who can screw their populace the most for the benefit of the Musks and Bezos of the world.

It's puzzling to me that 'socialism' is a bad word by those very politicians who openly give generous financial subsidies to corporations, yet balk when they go to individuals to maintain a living wage. This week, Pfizer/BioNTech got $2Billion from the government for Covid vaccine production. The government certainly has a hand in picking the winners and losers, and big companies have clear advantages as we see.

[Hellgate]

This is what really chaps me. It's bad enough to take money from local governments' general funds, but allowing them to not pay taxes to the school district, which will be absorbing kids from the families of the 5,000 new employees is nauseating.



I'm sure they'll build a new high school football field and float some scholarships, but they're taking money from what's already a gravely underfunded system.



Intel is very effective at extorting money from local govs, and then have the audacity to complain about the local schools not creating graduates with the technical skills they need to compete in the modern economy.



But politicians at all levels love to be played as rubes and compete with each other over who can screw their populace the most for the benefit of the Musks and Bezos of the world.That's not correct. The property currently generates about $35k in tax revenue. With the plant it will be about $8M in tax revenue.

The majority of the EEs will not live near the plant as it isn't Austin, it's Del Valle. Grapes and Watermelons.

Local News from KUT 90.5, Austin’s NPR Station
Tesla Chooses Site East Of Austin For New $1 Billion Factory*
https://bit.ly/3jzNR2Q

[pasadena]

More likely Tesla doesn't want to offer up the worst performing 15 states that would completely tank their ratings.

JDP is an industry rating system, they survey customers but it is favored to give makers pretty good chance at scoring higher.

Does this suggest these car companies self-report to JDPowers? If so, there's certainly a credibility problem with their data, as the results seem to suggest.

[mistermo]

More likely Tesla doesn't want to offer up the worst performing 15 states that would completely tank their ratings.

JDP is an industry rating system, they survey customers but it is favored to give makers pretty good chance at scoring higher.

That would apply to all the other companies too. Any system where companies self-report, or can selectively manipulate data, will be prone to biased and inaccurate results. Hence, Dodge is highest in 'quality', and Toyota & Honda are below average. Nobody really believes that, do they?

[pasadena]

Don't be a Tesla apologist.
All the other manufacturers allow access to consumer feedback. They all try to skew in favor.
JDP has various quality metrics. Initial quality (first 90 days) is just one of several quality metrics. First 90 days is heavily skewed in favor of companies, since most cars can stay together for 3 months.

That would apply to all the other companies too. Any system where companies self-report, or can selectively manipulate data, will be prone to biased and inaccurate results. Hence, Dodge is highest in 'quality', and Toyota & Honda are below average. Nobody really believes that, do they?

[mistermo]

Don't be a Tesla apologist.
All the other manufacturers allow access to consumer feedback. They all try to skew in favor.
JDP has various quality metrics. Initial quality (first 90 days) is just one of several quality metrics. First 90 days is heavily skewed in favor of companies, since most cars can stay together for 3 months.

Forget Tesla. Does anyone REALLY believe this data represents reality?!? That Dodge is king of quality and Toyota is well BELOW average? And Lexus is WORSE than Jeep and Hyundai? Why is Dodge #1 and Chrysler #26? Nothing on this list adds up. I wouldn't participate either.

It's kind of like the older school ranking surveys, where those schools who decided not to participate got hammered. I believe it was Northwestern?
They didn't fall 15 spots because they changed their school. They fell ~15 spots because they decided to sit out of the silly survey system and didn't submit data.

[pasadena]

https://www.jdpower.com/sites/default/files/styles/small/public/legacy/image/012a.JPG?itok=GHb4qU3Whttps://www.jdpower.com/sites/default/files/styles/small/public/legacy/image/012b.JPG?itok=MnZzt-VJ
https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/jd02-1593097557.jpg
https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/jd01-1593097474.jpg

Forget Tesla. Does anyone REALLY believe this data represents reality?!? That Dodge is king of quality and Toyota is well BELOW average? And Lexus is WORSE than Jeep and Hyundai? Why is Dodge #1 and Chrysler #26? Nothing on this list adds up. I wouldn't participate either.

It's kind of like the older school ranking surveys, where those schools who decided not to participate got hammered. I believe it was Northwestern?
They didn't fall 15 spots because they changed their school. They fell ~15 spots because they decided to sit out of the silly survey system and didn't submit data.

[kevinvc]

That's not correct. The property currently generates about $35k in tax revenue. With the plant it will be about $8M in tax revenue.

The majority of the EEs will not live near the plant as it isn't Austin, it's Del Valle. Grapes and Watermelons.

Local News from KUT 90.5, Austin’s NPR Station
Tesla Chooses Site East Of Austin For New $1 Billion Factory*
https://bit.ly/3jzNR2Q

Hellgate - I defer to your knowledge about the area. But I suppose the costs/ benefits depend on how much you zoom in or out. Schools are going to see an influx of students somewhere - will those districts get a commiserate tax boost? How much will it cost to build and maintain the transportation infrastructure? How about the water and sewer utilities? What are the harder to quantify costs in terms of increased traffic and longer commute times, including associated environmental and public health costs. And so on.

My point is not to argue that all growth is evil; it's essential in the economic system our society has chosen. But I would argue that taxes should be applied proportionally to those who benefit or are hurt by the participants. The costs are still going to be incurred, but the driver for these increases isn't being asked to pay for them, which means they'll be spread across the individuals and other companies who don't have the power to leverage similar deals of their own.

As was stated earlier, this is corporate socialism. The government has decided that Tesla and their shareholders don't have to pay for this capital investment and ongoing costs, but they sure as hell are going to enjoy the benefits. I'm curious if anyone is projecting a break-even point for these tax benefits. I just hope the politicians in this case did a better job of building in projections than the Walker regime in Wisconsin with the Foxconn plant.

[mistermo]

I'm not picking on you, just trying to point out what appears to me to be the fallacy of JD Power numbers. For MANY of these companies, Dodge and Toyota to name only two, there's an INVERSE correlation between initial quality and dependability. This doesn't make sense. Dodge makes parts to last 3 mos while Toyota's parts have troubles initially, but work better over the long term? And if companies self-report, I suspect we know why. I've love to hear the folks at JDP explain all this.

[Big Dan]

See what brand hold the value longer Dodge or Toyota?

[pasadena]

You have a strange way of self-defining the parameters to fit your argument, yet not based in fact.

JDP surveys owners. Tesla is the only maker that has refused customer info. JDP is an industry metric. They are not some scam.
If anything, they skew in favor of makers.

If you read their ratings and details, it is pretty clear why and how. In fact, JDP does help improve products.
JDP is also transparent in the how and why of their ratings. Easy to educate yourself on them, if you want.

I'm not picking on you, just trying to point out what appears to me to be the fallacy of JD Power numbers. For MANY of these companies, Dodge and Toyota to name only two, there's an INVERSE correlation between initial quality and dependability. This doesn't make sense. Dodge makes parts to last 3 mos while Toyota's parts have troubles initially, but work better over the long term? And if companies self-report, I suspect we know why. I've love to hear the folks at JDP explain all this.

[unterhausen]

Nobody makes car parts to fall apart after 3 months. They make them to be reliable for 30000 miles, which is when the executives get a new car. American car companies have been fairly successful at making a car that's too unreliable for most people after 100000. Toyota varies, but their "lifetime" is 175000, and that is obvious.

[josephr]

More power to 'em.

Puts his money where his mouth is, creates jobs stateside, not just at plants but the income multiplier in states/communities.

Imagine Ford or GM CEOs doing similar?


I'm really impressed this thread hasn't gotten even more poltical, but glad that it hasn't.
Living in Alabama, the Detroit of the South, and seeing a lot of these companies come in, has really keyed me into how nasty of a business automotive manufacturing is. Mercedes, Honda, Hyundai/Kia, Volkswagen, BMW, Nissan, Toyota, and thousands of suppliers, have gotten big subsidies to build here in the US. But when Elon does it here, there's a lot of flack about how he treats his workers, etc. Why do these foreign companies like the South? b/c of a regional bias against unions. Not to debate the pros/cons of unions, but I've literally been in the room where a CEO of a supplier told employees that if they voted for a union, he would personally shut the plant down. A direct violation of the NLRA. Another supplier company dropped their hourly workerbee wage from a range of $15.50-17.50/hr to a flat $12.50/hr with no progression. The employees literally came in on Monday to find their wages dropped $3+ per hour and told they could take it or walk. And these foreign companies offer great salaries and benefits -- until their subsidy packages run out. Then its manipulative as get-out - 80% "temporary" workforces with folks making $14-15/hr with the temp agencies offering really expensive health insurance packages.

As far as GM goes---you might want to check the inside of the car's door to see if you're really buying a Daewoo.

Anyway, I wish Austin the best if they get a Tesla facility....I know everyone's watching Elon like a hawk, but its a crappy business to begin with and from my perspective, he's doing more for his employees than a lot of these others. If only they'd get rid of the big-screen tv...

[veloduffer]

Interesting article by Bloomberg who surveyed 5000 Tesla owners.


https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey/


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[pasadena]

Best to think of Tesla as a tech company trying to build cars.
Tesla is behind in manufacturing and engineering. They can't touch the established brands when it comes to building vehicles.

Every major EV company is a car company trying to build tech.
They are all behind Tesla (including VAG cars like the Taycan) in tech.

Interesting article by Bloomberg who surveyed 5000 Tesla owners.


https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey/


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mistermo]

You have a strange way of self-defining the parameters to fit your argument, yet not based in fact.

JDP surveys owners. Tesla is the only maker that has refused customer info. JDP is an industry metric. They are not some scam.
If anything, they skew in favor of makers.

If you read their ratings and details, it is pretty clear why and how. In fact, JDP does help improve products.
JDP is also transparent in the how and why of their ratings. Easy to educate yourself on them, if you want.

I'm not defending Tesla. Rather, I'm questioning the process that leads to these "facts", as you call them. JDP's results are not based on "facts", rather they're based on owner opinions, right?

You say JDP surveys owners? If Tesla is able to BLOCK owner info, then Dodge (or pick your company) can certainly channel selective owner info to JDP too, skewing results. Point is, if the data comes to JDP via the CarCos, they have a vested interest in manipulating it, leading to inaccurate "facts".

If the results of a study don't make sense, it's sensible to question the process followed. The results of their two studies display incongruities.

[josephr]

I'm not defending Tesla. Rather, I'm questioning the process that leads to these "facts", as you call them. JDP's results are not based on "facts", rather they're based on owner opinions, right?

You say JDP surveys owners? If Tesla is able to BLOCK owner info, then Dodge (or pick your company) can certainly channel selective owner info to JDP too, skewing results. Point is, if the data comes to JDP via the CarCos, they have a vested interest in manipulating it, leading to inaccurate "facts".

If the results of a study don't make sense, it's sensible to question the process followed. The results of their two studies display incongruities.

Only new car owners get the surveys and based on my experience of buying 1 VW, 2 hondas, 1 toyota, and 1 mazda, I've never received a JD Power survey. :rolleyes: I put more stock in Consumer Reports data.

[Red Tornado]

SpaceX basically destroyed a small town by the coast in Texas.

That said, they are also quite aware of their impact and try to mitigate it. However, their mitigation doesn't always align with what actually helps those impacted.

Definitely a mixed bag. But manufacturing is usually better jobs and less negatives than a spaceship launch site.

A little OT here (hopefully not too much); there is a Space-X rocket testing facility 25-30 miles down the road from where I live in central TX, and probably half that distance from where I work. They like to test engines between 6:00 - 9:00 p.m. most of the time. Occasionally they'll do one during the day, but that's the exception. Most of their tests can easily be heard - and felt - in my home. Their facility is 3-4 miles away from a small town where several coworkers live. Obviously the effect is much more noticeable for them! This small town has a p.m. noise ordinance, and Space-X has paid so much in fines to the town, due to the evening tests, it has basically financed a complete renovation of one of the city's parks and little league baseball/softball fields. They actually re-named the park "Rocket Park"! I think some of those fines may be going to other improvements in town as well.

So def a mixed bag for these folk. Some don't mind them if they're contributing financially to the area, others just want them out, period. Hasn't hurt real estate, as there continues to be new housing between my work and the town close to the Space-X facility. No point to make here, just an anecdotal tale to piggyback on this previous reply.

[pasadena]

Only new car owners get the surveys and based on my experience of buying 1 VW, 2 hondas, 1 toyota, and 1 mazda, I've never received a JD Power survey. :rolleyes: I put more stock in Consumer Reports data.

Our household has gotten two JDP surveys in my lifetime
Consumer Reports is a great source for alot of product data.
Tesla dropped off their "recommended" list (3, X and S) and then, Tesla made improvements to quality and the 3 is back on the list (at least in late '19)

Model X continues to be not recommened
I think the S is also 'recommened' now, but I could be wrong.

[pasadena]

Are you reading what you're writing?

1. I'm not JDP
2. "if....then..." assumptions you continue to let run through your mind are not based in anything JDP or anyone has said or done.

3. As I have said multiple times, JDP is transparent in how it collects and breakes down data. Go read it if you want to understand the ratings.

I'm not defending Tesla. Rather, I'm questioning the process that leads to these "facts", as you call them. JDP's results are not based on "facts", rather they're based on owner opinions, right?

You say JDP surveys owners? If Tesla is able to BLOCK owner info, then Dodge (or pick your company) can certainly channel selective owner info to JDP too, skewing results. Point is, if the data comes to JDP via the CarCos, they have a vested interest in manipulating it, leading to inaccurate "facts".

If the results of a study don't make sense, it's sensible to question the process followed. The results of their two studies display incongruities.

[mistermo]

Are you reading what you're writing?

1. I'm not JDP
2. "if....then..." assumptions you continue to let run through your mind are not based in anything JDP or anyone has said or done.

3. As I have said multiple times, JDP is transparent in how it collects and breakes down data. Go read it if you want to understand the ratings.

Common sense would suggest there's a correlation between quality and dependability. No?. For many of these companies, there's an inverse correlation! Nothing on JDP will explain how Toyota can go from substantially below average initial quality to substantially above average dependability. Same in reverse for Dodge.

This doesn't pass the test of common sense unless there's (a) something critical that I'm missing, or (b) their data is misleading or false. I'd hoped you could shed light on (a), since you seem to have a better grasp of JDP than I.

My premise is that IF one company can block customer data, THEN it seems logical to assume others can too, even selectively, and I'm certain JDP won't publish this either.

I'm not attacking you, merely trying to understand what it is that you see, and escapes me, that explains this.

Apologies to the OP and steering this sideways.

[josephr]

Common sense would suggest there's a correlation between quality and dependability. No?. For many of these companies, there's an inverse correlation! Nothing on JDP will explain how Toyota can go from substantially below average initial quality to substantially above average dependability. Same in reverse for Dodge.

This doesn't pass the test of common sense unless there's (a) something critical that I'm missing, or (b) their data is misleading or false. I'd hoped you could shed light on (a), since you seem to have a better grasp of JDP than I.

My premise is that IF one company can block customer data, THEN it seems logical to assume others can too, even selectively, and I'm certain JDP won't publish this either.

I'm not attacking you, merely trying to understand what it is that you see, and escapes me, that explains this.

Apologies to the OP and steering this sideways.

The critical data point is that the Japanese and other manufacturers don't really give a crap about JD Powers. They're pretty much selling everything they make anyway and their reputation for long-term quality is far more valuable than whatever JD Powers has to say. Look at the companies really touting their data - GM, Dodge, etc....all of them still having a hard time convincing consumers their product is a good long-term buy.

Edit: I just think Tesla is getting blasted for this maybe because they're handling it wrong -- should just say "yeah, we'll participate" and then not do much about it...plus probably getting some flack from JD Powers trying to push them into it, because, ya know, Tesla is the new kid on the street.

[fiamme red]

South Korea launches safety probe into Tesla vehicles: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-southkorea/south-korea-launches-safety-probe-into-tesla-vehicles-idUSKCN24U07W.

[fiamme red]

TSLA is up 11.2% today. :confused:

https://techcrunch.com/2020/08/17/tesla-shares-rally-for-no-reason/

Tesla shares surpassed $1,800 for the first time today, the latest in an eye-popping run up of the stock that has propelled the company’s valuation to more than $341 billion.

Let’s put these numbers in perspective. Tesla, an automaker that delivered 367,500 vehicles in 2019 and is aiming to exceed the 500,000-mark in 2020, is worth more than the combined market valuations of America’s Big Three automakers: GM, Ford and Fiat Chrysler. Strike that, Tesla is now worth more than those companies combined by a factor of three and a half...

[fried bake]

Hard to understand the basis for JD Powers 'quality' list. Subaru, often thought to be a quality leader, is 25th. Mercedes is 28th. Audi is 30th.

The highest quality marque goes to.....drumroll......DODGE! Kia and Chevy round out the top three.

Honda and Toyota are 19th and 20th. Dodge is 20 spots higher than Toyota?!? Something doesn't add up.

My Tesla has been towed twice. Once when I parked illegally, once when I ran out of battery juice in the middle of -10d temps in winter. Both were my fault, rather than quality issues.


Ease of operation or ergonomics (specifically, how intuitive it is to operate the car) are a significant portion of the IQS study, which is why Tesla was at the bottom and why MB and others struggle.

That being said, I can assure you that Toyota and MB place a high value in the JDPowers survey. Those rankings are trusted and worth hundreds of millions in positive brand exposure.

[fiamme red]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/07/elon-musk-is-now-the-richest-person-in-the-world-passing-jeff-bezos-.html

Elon Musk just became the richest person in the world, with a net worth of more than $185 billion.

Thursday’s increase in Tesla’s share price pushed Musk past Jeff Bezos, who had been the richest person since 2017 and is currently worth about $184 billion...

Musk started 2020 worth about $27 billion, and was barely in the top 50 richest people....:rolleyes:

[mistermo]

One of the best explanations of Tesla's business model(s) I've seen. Tesla is no more a car company than Apple is a telephone company. When it started, Amazon sold only books. One would've been foolish to consider Amazon as just another book seller.Here (https://www.ypo.org/2020/12/why-tesla-might-be-undervalued/)

[saab2000]

One of the best explanations of Tesla's business model(s) I've seen. Tesla is no more a car company than Apple is a telephone company. Here (https://www.ypo.org/2020/12/why-tesla-might-be-undervalued/)

I got lucky and invested relatively early.

Energy storage is one holy grail. The other is stage 5 autonomous driving.

This said, I wish they would hire some folks from Audi, or even Honda or Toyota, to design their cars and interiors! They make one good looking car, the Model S. And even that one has an interior only a mother could love. Simplicity of design is one thing. Cheapness is another and it’s not a virtue.

I’m glad I bought in when the buying was good because it’s not good now.

They also offer a few things that could be very interesting in the future. The Tesla roof is available now and the Tesla Semi may, especially when autonomous driving arrives, revolutionize cargo transit. Also, Tesla very wisely built the charging infrastructure early instead of expecting the existing companies to add it. Like oil companies are gonna add chargers at gas stations.....!!!! Or like electric car owners want to hand around at filthy gas stations. The Supercharger network is genius.

[oldpotatoe]

One of the best explanations of Tesla's business model(s) I've seen. Tesla is no more a car company than Apple is a telephone company. Here (https://www.ypo.org/2020/12/why-tesla-might-be-undervalued/)

Agree..reminds me of RedBull..NOT an energy drink company but a 'marketing' company..that also sells this really disgusting energy drink..:)