Carbon versus aluminum rims for every day riding

[Steve in SLO]

The thread on Light Bicycles carbon rims got me thinking whether the jump to carbon rims would worth it for me as a now-rec rider. The price points of carbon rims are getting pretty good for high-quality items, but so far it’s been all aluminum on my rim-braked rides.
Just wondering what the collective wisdom of the group is regarding the advantages to carbon over aluminum rims. I get that they save a bit of rim weight and have some aerodynamic advantages, but the lack of confidence in their braking ability vs alu gives me pause, since I weigh just north of 190# and often hit 40+ MPH on daily rides. Speaking of rim brake rims, not disc-specific.
TIA, all.

[djdj]

While I have a couple of pairs of aluminum clinchers, and rarely ride in the rain, I ride Bora carbon tubulars almost exclusively. In dry conditions they stop as well as aluminum rims in my opinion.

[OtayBW]

I have been in a similar situation until just recently. Had been happy riding HED Ardennes for years, but recently bought some Bora WTO 45s. Braking on the Boras is very good - no issues whatsoever, except the Campy pads are freaking LOUD. I'm told some other replacement pads are equally good and more quiet at a cost of ~$45. :crap:

Weight is probably ~50-75g heavier on the Boras, but that's no big whoop, though maybe I'll feel it more once I get out do to some decent climbing. I have not really felt any earthshaking difference in performance in stability or handling (at least not yet), but the one area that I hope/expect to see some difference is in areas of higher speed/paceline riding. I also went up to 25s for the tires on the Boras whereas I was always on 23s on the HEDs.

[vincenz]

Newer carbon rims with treated brake surfaces stop even better than aluminum rims from my experience, even in the rain. I ride newer boras with red pads.

Lightweight carbon rims will give your bike a whole new feel compared to alu. It won’t make you a better rider, but it will make it way more fun, imo.

[Tony]

After having many different wheelsets throughout the years I've settled on carbon only. I like the looks better, and as far as braking both sets I have with textured brake track, one using Black Prince pads the other Reynolds Cryo Blue stop as good as any of my alumunum wheels. I do ride in the wet on occation and there is a small noticable difference in braking, nothing that would concern me even on a long decent.
I also LIKE THE SOUND they make while braking!!

[nmrt]

dont know what kind of terrain you ride in but since I live in hilly boulder, i would not recommend carbon clinchers for braking in winding hilly/mountainous terrain. i have bora ultra 50 tubulars -- these are great for such terrain in addition to the obvious alloy wheelsets. i had the enve 3.4 rim brake clinchers, and man...i hated them coming down sinuous 14% grades. but while riding in the flats, who cares about braking? one rarely brakes. so, if you are riding in such terrain, get any decent carbon wheels you want.

however, i am not sure why you want to get carbon. if you think they look cooler (they do!) with their all black rims then i would suggest getting the DT Swiss 1400 Oxic. I had the pair of these alloy rims and they are just so sweet. amazing braking -- even better than alloy.

if you are getting carbon rim brake clinchers to lose weight, i think at low depths the difference in weight is not that high. but at deeper depths, 40 mm and higher, the weight difference gets appreciable.

[John H.]

I would never ride carbon wheels with rim brakes as daily drivers. As much as the braking surfaces have improved- Carbon rims don't brake as well as aluminum- Especially when wet or damp.

This is what pushed me 100% into disc brakes (that and tire clearance).
Now I run carbon wheels and fatter tires 24-7.

This is just my opinion and my experience for where I ride and how I ride.

[lavi]

Let's be honest. Carbon stuff is likely most about looks (aka vanity). They are just so dang cool. The weight diff, etc is nothing compared to the pizza I ate at midnight after smoking a joint. SNS.

As far as risks or handling in wind and brake performance on looonnng descents...no longer really a factor. I'm with you at 190#. I spent time riding the Malibu canyons. Some of those descents are steep, technical...and if the wind is blowing (which it does) be aware. I found Decker to be the most "challenging" in some very high wind. I never did hesitate to hit that descent whenever I wanted. I just covered the brakes a bit more and didn't go total hell bent for leather.

I was then on Enve 4.5 SES. High wind? Sure I'd feel it, but not bad at all. The braking was fine, not great. Dropping down Tuna Cyn...that one is knarly. I don't drag brake...but on that one, it almost cannot be avoided in places. My brake track did not implode and blow the front tire off. My front teeth are still in place. :banana:

Now I have Bora WTO 45. It's almost like I'm riding some great aluminum wheels except I get the "cooler" looks and sounds. I don't care/notice the weight delta. As has been noted, the braking and stability in wind is awesome. I was out on some 20+ gusting days, no worries.

[Clean39T]

The thread on Light Bicycles carbon rims got me thinking whether the jump to carbon rims would worth it for me as a now-rec rider. The price points of carbon rims are getting pretty good for high-quality items, but so far it’s been all aluminum on my rim-braked rides.
Just wondering what the collective wisdom of the group is regarding the advantages to carbon over aluminum rims. I get that they save a bit of rim weight and have some aerodynamic advantages, but the lack of confidence in their braking ability vs alu gives me pause, since I weigh just north of 190# and often hit 40+ MPH on daily rides. Speaking of rim brake rims, not disc-specific.
TIA, all.

Another key consideration is the wind in your area. How do you feel about rounding a corner at 30mph into a stiff crosswind that could catch your front wheel and push you off your line? I would think that on the central coast of California, especially in and out of canyons, this would be a significant concern....more so than absolute braking power, which I think is adequate at this point for all modern wheels (some being better than others). I think 40-45mm wheels have gotten really good in general at handling predictably in response to consistent wind - not sure about going taller than that unless you are riding wide-open spaces or areas with little steep/treacherous descending with wind.

[weiwentg]

Right now, I think I would be comfortable riding carbon disc brake wheels everyday. I am leaning strongly no on carbon rim brake wheels as daily drivers.

[54ny77]

Blasting down Los Osos Valley Rd. in a tailwind with some carbon 45s or 80s would be a 35+ mph e-ticket ride!

(Just be careful when turning left or right..or making a u-turn.!!!!)

[Clean39T]

You'd probably enjoy this podcast too..

https://marginalgainspodcast.cc/josh-talks-with-cycling-icon-damon-rinard/

But I think the most salient point in all of it was about downhill handling for members of the gruppetto - if being on deep aero wheels means compromised handling on downhills and getting dropped by your group heading into a flat portion, it ain't worth it.

Handling, comfort, and safety tops every other priority on my list - if deep aero wheels are going to make descending sketchy or put me in a situation where I can't hold a line with traffic whizzing by, I'll pass.

My greatest enjoyment comes from swoopy descents and zippy climbs - moderate-depth carbon tubulars and high-end alloy wheels seem to be the right ticket there.

[CTracer]

dont know what kind of terrain you ride in but since I live in hilly boulder, i would not recommend carbon clinchers for braking in winding hilly/mountainous terrain. i have bora ultra 50 tubulars -- these are great for such terrain in addition to the obvious alloy wheelsets. i had the enve 3.4 rim brake clinchers, and man...i hated them coming down sinuous 14% grades. but while riding in the flats, who cares about braking? one rarely brakes. so, if you are riding in such terrain, get any decent carbon wheels you want.

however, i am not sure why you want to get carbon. if you think they look cooler (they do!) with their all black rims then i would suggest getting the DT Swiss 1400 Oxic. I had the pair of these alloy rims and they are just so sweet. amazing braking -- even better than alloy.

if you are getting carbon rim brake clinchers to lose weight, i think at low depths the difference in weight is not that high. but at deeper depths, 40 mm and higher, the weight difference gets appreciable.

+1 DT Swiss 1400 Oxic are perfect daily drivers and bad weather wheels - they are light also. I have taken numerous trips to France/Italy and in the high mountains I prefer the security of the DT Swiss 1400 Oxic vs. carbon. I guess I am still a bit old school. Save the carbon hoops for your big weekend rides. The campy WTOs have the best brake surface of any carbon wheels I have tried although I just picked up some Reynolds AR29X wheels and in the dry they are as good as alloy. I have not tried them in the wet yet.

[cgates66]

I'm 210# (or more), and ride almost exclusively carbon rims. However my mileage is modest compared to most - maybe 2K / year? As a heavy rider I actually prefer 60mm carbon rims most of the time, because the spokes are considerably shorter so you get a stiffer wheel, all else being equal.

If you are running rim brakes, eventually you will get brake-track wear - but that happens with aluminum also, eventually. If you are running (big enough!) disc brakes, then it doesn't matter. I haven't noticed a significant difference in dry-weather braking between carbon and aluminum rim brakes, as long as you use decent pads; wet weather is a little worse on older, smooth brake tracks.

I don't ride long, steep descents in my area, though, so can't comment on heating issues related to that. There have been failures in this environment esp. if "riding the brakes", but I don't know that there is "statistical" data on them. Enve does some experiments on this I think, to name one. The deep carbon rims are affected by wind some designs more so than others.

For wheel choices, mid-deep (40 - 60mm to my eye) carbon looks awesome, and can be built a little stiffer. I run discs now, because as a heavier guy, getting some wider tires on there pays a disproportionate dividend.

I've also found that rim is relevant, but far from the only story: sufficient spoke material (whether lots of skinny ones or fewer really thick ones) is very important, and bearing design - not ceramic etc. - big bearings, and more of them placed better - make a very significant difference to the ride, along with tire choice.

[mtechnica]

I’m pretty sure carbon rims are fine these days, just gotta use the right brake pads and maybe be a little more careful about riding the brakes down long hills. If all of that is a concern there are the hed jet wheels which seem pretty legit.

[Mr B]

+1 DT Swiss 1400 Oxic are perfect daily drivers and bad weather wheels - they are light also.
Would love a set of those, DT did such a great job of producing a fully blacked-out wheel that doesn't actually look black - looks like charcoal instead.

Personally I'll continue to buy alloy rims for general use simply because they're about a fifth of the price of carbon and I still love a bit of grey ano from Mavic or H+Son.
Wouldn't say no to a loaner set of WTO 33s, mind you...

[Clean39T]

Wouldn't say no to a loaner set of WTO 33s, mind you...

I wish Campy would make a tubeless 19 ID aluminum rim for Shamal Ultras. What's the point of a WTO 33 other than its width?

[weiwentg]

I wish Campy would make a tubeless 19 ID aluminum rim for Shamal Ultras. What's the point of a WTO 33 other than its width?

I'm not sure what width the Shamal Ultras are. I'm guessing something like 17mm ID?

I know that the market seems to have gone to 19mm ID for wheels with road tires. Do we actually need 19mm ID for 25mm tires, or even for 28mm?

This is more of an aero rim concern, but your aerodynamics are maximized if the tire is around 95% of the rim's maximum outside width. A 25mm tire on a 19mm ID rim probably measures 27-28mm or so. If you wanted to maximize aero, you then want a rim with 29mm or so outside width. Rims that fat are pretty rare in rim brakes, I think. Not sure if there's even space.

For those outside that small minority who really care about aerodynamics, do 25 or 28mm tires ride noticeably worse on 17mm ID rims? I suspect it's not noticeable, having recently changed between rims of those widths. Then again, I guess it can't hurt that much if this is a mid- or low-profile non-aero rim designed for lightness.

[pooneej]

I still ride carbon - even after a pretty wicked pothole wrecked a rear.
It was during a group ride (5 of us) a while ago. I had just finished the pull and was getting into rear position. The lead rider called a pothole last minute and I didnt hear. I saw it and tried bunnyhopping it. Front cleared but rear didnt.

Pretty ugly sound then skid to a stop. Didnt go down though and the sewup didnt go flat !

That day I wish I was riding my other bike that had some bulletproof Aerospoke wheels.

[Mr B]

I wish Campy would make a tubeless 19 ID aluminum rim for Shamal Ultras. What's the point of a WTO 33 other than its width?

No idea, they just look great...

[flying]

Let's be honest. Carbon stuff is likely most about looks (aka vanity). They are just so dang cool.

This ^^^

Pretty much how I feel
Many years ago I rode Campy Hyperons because they were a big drop in weight in those days

These days? All Aluminum all the time

Just so much easier
No thinking about different pads
No worries if I hit a hidden in the shade root bumpy or sharp edged pothole

Weights now easily in the 14-1500 gram range which is basically where I want to be. Because over the years I find this is where flex does not exist & as I said they are not fragile. (I am not a big rider either at 145-155lbs)

Aero? I swear unless your cooking down the Queen K in the Iron Man most rec riders are only going to notice the aero advantage of deep dish carbon going down hills. Do I need any help going down hills? ;)

Sometimes I think carbon wheels were the first real snake oil of cycling. Got folks into thinking they needed this & that

I mean basically most of the disc/rim debate revolves around how braking on carbon compares to disc. :):)

[gbcoupe]

Let's be honest. Carbon stuff is likely most about looks (aka vanity). They are just so dang cool. The weight diff, etc is nothing compared to the pizza I ate at midnight after smoking a joint. SNS.

As far as risks or handling in wind and brake performance on looonnng descents...no longer really a factor. I'm with you at 190#. I spent time riding the Malibu canyons. Some of those descents are steep, technical...and if the wind is blowing (which it does) be aware. I found Decker to be the most "challenging" in some very high wind. I never did hesitate to hit that descent whenever I wanted. I just covered the brakes a bit more and didn't go total hell bent for leather.

I was then on Enve 4.5 SES. High wind? Sure I'd feel it, but not bad at all. The braking was fine, not great. Dropping down Tuna Cyn...that one is knarly. I don't drag brake...but on that one, it almost cannot be avoided in places. My brake track did not implode and blow the front tire off. My front teeth are still in place. :banana:

Now I have Bora WTO 45. It's almost like I'm riding some great aluminum wheels except I get the "cooler" looks and sounds. I don't care/notice the weight delta. As has been noted, the braking and stability in wind is awesome. I was out on some 20+ gusting days, no worries.

I had Pizza Tuesday night. Been 25 years or more since I've smoked a joint. Ride full carbon rims +/- 12 times a year.

I'll arrive at a good balance once I retire.

[Mr B]

Depends where you live and how you ride I guess. If you ride in a group with fast folks on the regular, and don't like getting left behind on long fast flowing descents or long smooth flat sections, you're gonna buy the 404s/C50s/Boras that the guys around you are rolling on.

There are so many degrees of recreational/training riding styles and paces, I don't blame folks for wanting whatever they think they need to improve their ride. For me though, the massive jump in price from alloy to carbon is still pretty hard to take.

[robertbb]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Campy are making tubular Bora's anymore?

Certainly not in the new WTO line... which are now all tubeless or clincher. These are actually faster than tubulars (despite the lower weight of tubulars) because of the reduced rolling resistance...

Point being, if there were any question-marks on the braking on these modern AC3-surfaced rims, I'd have thought Campy would have at least made a tubular version available in the rim brake line. If someone gifted me a set of WTO clinchers, I wouldn't hesitate to ride them down a big steep mountain regardless of the weather.

That said, I'm on aluminium wheels all the way. Zonda's to be specific. What are they, like, 1/4 the price of a set of WTO's?... and the performance differential is ridiculously small for the kind of riding most of us do.

[boywonder]

Aluminum for rim brakes
Carbon for disk

[martl]

From a pure rational point of view, there is no reason at all to use anything else than an Aluminum rim if you're not looking for ultimate performance and thus a re happy to accept a few points dropping from practicality.

That being said, you'll have to pry my DO Lightweights from my dead hands :banana:

[buddybikes]

Have a pair of Bontrager xxx lite carbon's, circa 2008? with the paired spoking. Over 22K miles without a true or even bearing change. they are narrow, and I am on 28's now, switching back between these wheels and H+Son Archetype. I am trying to determine if I am steadier on the wider rims, that all that matters to me at this age.

[ChainNoise]

I've been riding carbon fiber wheels daily since 2014. Almost exclusively tubular for the first half, now only clinchers.

[oldpotatoe]

The thread on Light Bicycles carbon rims got me thinking whether the jump to carbon rims would worth it for me as a now-rec rider. The price points of carbon rims are getting pretty good for high-quality items, but so far it’s been all aluminum on my rim-braked rides.
Just wondering what the collective wisdom of the group is regarding the advantages to carbon over aluminum rims. I get that they save a bit of rim weight and have some aerodynamic advantages, but the lack of confidence in their braking ability vs alu gives me pause, since I weigh just north of 190# and often hit 40+ MPH on daily rides. Speaking of rim brake rims, not disc-specific.
TIA, all.

Altho some carbon rims, most from Asia, are much cheaper than before..the decent ones are still in the $200-$250 per range including shipping for most.

BUT, everyday riding, gets some junk in the brake pads(rim brakes) and you can kill the rim, carbon.

For the $, not sure of the advantage for a 'now-rec' rider...Really, in the 'grand scheme of things'..for the average enthusiast, not sure of the real performance advantage except for 'coffee shop' points of a $1000+ carbon wheelset.

[93KgBike]

Boras, Shamals, Ksyriums A*, even the Allroads I installed last night. Superlight, super stiff, plus set and forget. And brake pads are not $$$$$.

It's hard to imagine not having constant concerns of one-kind-or-another while JRA on carbon rims.

[FlashUNC]

Yes, carbon rims are fine for everyday use.

[mtechnica]

Depends where you live and how you ride I guess. If you ride in a group with fast folks on the regular, and don't like getting left behind on long fast flowing descents or long smooth flat sections, you're gonna buy the 404s/C50s/Boras that the guys around you are rolling on.



How many less watts do you think you're using with 50mm carbon wheels versus mid section aluminum wheels, at say, 25mph?

[Mr B]

Not a clue. I don’t even measure my speed whilst riding, let alone watts.

Not sure what kind of fight you’re trying to pick tbh, but if it’s along the lines of ‘a deep carbon aero rim is no faster than a Belgium+’, take it to somebody who is actually developing and making carbon wheels today.

[mtechnica]

Not a clue. I don’t even measure my speed whilst riding, let alone watts.

Not sure what kind of fight you’re trying to pick tbh, but if it’s along the lines of ‘a deep carbon aero rim is no faster than a Belgium+’, take it to somebody who is actually developing and making carbon wheels today.

I’m just curious is all. Some people say the wheels help you hang in fast groups and some people say they don’t really matter that much.

[AngryScientist]

i wouldnt purposely ride carbon rim brake wheels in foul weather. good carbon brake tracks can last practically forever if you use the right pads and dont introduce any abrasive material. riding in gritty wet weather is a good way to reduce the life of the brake track.

other than that, yes, i think carbon rim brake wheels are OK to ride daily.

[ltwtsculler91]

i wouldnt purposely ride carbon rim brake wheels in foul weather. good carbon brake tracks can last practically forever if you use the right pads and dont introduce any abrasive material. riding in gritty wet weather is a good way to reduce the life of the brake track.

other than that, yes, i think carbon rim brake wheels are OK to ride daily.

^^ this. If you ride in bad weather have a second set of wheels or second bike with aluminum rims for the wet days.

I'm been fortunate enough to pick up 4 road bikes, have 2 with carbon wheels and 2 aluminum. If it's wet or any reach chance of rain I'll grab one of the bikes with aluminum wheels. Have been caught in the rain a few times on my Zipps (yay Miami!) and while they stop ok, its definitely worse and not good for the wheels

[slambers3]

Everyone is going to have a different perspective on this, and it really depends on how you ride, where you ride, and your body mass.
Where I ride, we have some pretty short steep climbs and rolling hills. No fear of overheating the brake tracks on a modern set, even if you’re a hard brake grabber and kinda husky. Lots of people I ride with use deep carbon wheels as their everyday wheel without issue, and there IS an appreciable speed benefit particularly if you ride fast.
If I lived in the mountains with sustained periods of heavy braking, id probably keep alu wheels as my go to every day set. While A lot of modern carbon wheels brake and dissipate heat really well, there’s only so much heat they can take before kaboom.

[m_moses]

While A lot of modern carbon wheels brake and dissipate heat really well, there’s only so much heat they can take before kaboom.

This video describes an incident that highlights your point. Likely multiple factors contributed but can you imagine both wheels failing almost simultaneously? Scary.

https://youtu.be/W0iMHkYpWFo


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Fixed]

Aluminum for rim brakes
Carbon for disk
For everyday rider
Cheers

[Alaska Mike]

I have a bunch of both, all rim brake. Some of the carbon rims are tubular race wheels, one or two sets are clincher. I have set or two of aluminum wheels with carbon fairings. Then a smattering of regular aluminum wheels.

For everyday riding (including rain), I use HED Belgium/Belgium + clincher wheels the vast majority of the time. With a good hub set, they just work well in all conditions.

For a spirited group ride, I might take one of my race bikes which have carbon-specific pads, so I'll throw on a set of carbon clinchers. Nothing excessively deep.

For early season riding, I use 32 spoke Open Pros with more durable tires. Lots of junk and crack on unswept roads here.

I can't remember the last time I used the rims with fairings. They just don't spin up as well as my Belgiums, and are kind of a bear in cross-winds. Just for show.

[Kirk007]

If you have enough bikes in the rotation then every bike with a carbon rim is a special day bike, not a daily driver and no need to worry about the ride of the day is worthy of carbon rims ; )

[martl]

This video describes an incident that highlights your point. Likely multiple factors contributed but can you imagine both wheels failing almost simultaneously? Scary.

https://youtu.be/W0iMHkYpWFo


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


When an item is too hot to touch (you withdraw your finger with an "ouch" but you dont get a red mark or a blister), we are talking ~ 55-70°C (130-160°F). Ever touched the grate of your oven retrieving your pizza? That would be the 180-200°C (350-400°F) the bloke in the video is talking about. It would immediately give you a blister when you touched it.

I am *very* positive any part of the tire/tube system would have given up way before that. In fact, i had the pleasure of experiencing my share of blowouts tue to heat, because the tubular glue gave up, the inner tube had a hole melted into it etc.