Price of eTap groups - Justified or BS?

[eBAUMANN]

This just popped up in my feed and it triggered me a little...
(https://theradavist.com/2020/05/sram-force-axs-etap-goes-wider-and-new-intergrated-dropper-levers-in-1x-kits/?no_cache=1&fbclid=IwAR13sAZ0-w5m5KiOtxDzjWCvApGr4qWIAN946eMDE6qC9amx5vuav2J1HDU )
I mostly checked out for 2019. Occasionally I would see some bike on instagram that had some unfamiliar new parts on it but I never really looked into what they were or, more importantly, what they cost.

Am I the only one who is just slightly appalled at the eye-watering price tags attached to these AXS groups?

Force AXS - $1650 at CC (https://www.competitivecyclist.com/sram-force-etap-axs-2x-groupset)
Shifters, RD, FD, Batteries

Red AXS HRD - $2500 at CC (https://www.competitivecyclist.com/sram-red-etap-axs-2x-hrd-groupset?ti=OjoxOjI6)
Hydro and rotors included this time, how generous!

I get it, they are more complicated components, R&D costs, etc etc.
But...$2500?...REALLY?!

I have no experience in this world but maybe some of you folks do?

Do you feel like the price attached to these components is reasonable considering the R&D costs that went into their creation?

To take it a step further: How much R&D was actually even required here? A servo motor...a battery...a BT receiver...its nothing terribly cutting edge or high-$, as far as I can tell. But maybe I've got it all wrong, maybe this IS some kinda space-age wizardry SRAM has unleashed?

I get it, the market will decide these things and prices will adjust themselves if deemed out of line...but how in the hell do you (as a consumer) justify these sorts of costs when you can put together a mechanical drivetrain that performs the same (if you know how to use it) for 1/6 the cost?

[jtbadge]

IDK, retail of a Super Record disc group is almost $5k. Red AXS is a bargain!

[eBAUMANN]

IDK, retail of a Super Record disc group is almost $5k. Red AXS is a bargain!

Ha, I guess I should have thrown a wider net!
I didnt even look at campy prices...which are always inflated because "its campy." $5k is ridiculous. I'm glad I didnt know about that.

The entire industry has jumped the shark.
Again.
and again...
and again...

[jtbadge]

Four years ago I ordered a complete Ultegra 6800 groupset (mechanical shifting and rim brakes, gasp!) from Ribble for $469. Those were the days!

[Clean39T]

Four years ago I ordered a complete Ultegra 6800 groupset (mechanical shifting and rim brakes, gasp!) from Ribble for $469. Those were the days!Remember when you could get a Chorus 11 group for $600-ish?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[eBAUMANN]

Four years ago I ordered a complete Ultegra 6800 groupset (mechanical shifting and rim brakes, gasp!) from Ribble for $469. Those were the days!

There is really no reason to spend more...in 2020 its almost impossible to buy components that work poorly...hell, I was impressed by the not-bad-at-all shifting performance of the most recent TIAGRA group. TIAGRA.

[jtakeda]

There is really no reason to spend more...in 2020 its almost impossible to buy components that work poorly...hell, I was impressed by the not-bad-at-all shifting performance of the most recent TIAGRA group. TIAGRA.

Flash here hooked me up with an etap group and it’s the ****.

That being said if you put a gun to my head and said go buy a group at full retail price or I’ll kill you —I’d be on mechanical chorus

[bicycletricycle]

I think the development cost and the unit price for these electronic/hydraulic systems is a lot higher than their mechanical counterparts.

more interesting to me is how they will actually sell. I have no idea how many high end road groups are sold per year. I do think these high priced groups will push people down range some.

[vqdriver]

imo, sram's airea protocol alone puts it head and shoulders above shimano/campy.

if sram red with etap and hydro is 2500 then shimano and campy have more work to justify their price then sram does. all the sram bashing is lost on me.

[TheseGoTo11]

Am I the only one who is just slightly appalled at the eye-watering price tags attached to these AXS groups?


This got my attention, too. I'm not appalled, rather just amazed at what folks are willing to spend on drivetrain components. Like you said, for a fraction of the cost you can come up with some really excellent alternatives.

For the creative, there are some (IMO) elegant and pretty cool ways to employ older stuff that still looks cool and functions perfectly. No doubt all this AXS stuff works fantastic, but so do the mechanical Ultegra/XTR 10 speed mixed groupsets I run. I suppose it's all down to where each individual finds value.

[dbnm]

I am building a new bike that will probably be my N+0 (OMG!!) and I wanted the latest and greatest so I am using Force AXS derailleurs, disc brakes, shifters and Red AXS cranks.

I am coming from a bike with Dura Ace 9000 and EE brakes.

[FlashUNC]

It is what it is.

If folks don't want to, for whatever reason, there's plenty of other great options out there. Speak with your wallet and whatnot.

I'm personally a big SRAM electronic fan. Did I wince a bit when getting Red AXS? Sure. But it's been a flawless group that's worth every penny as far as I'm concerned.

[nmrt]

no one really cares about the price anymore. it is not a matter of "worth it?" anymore. as long as people will buy it. and people are buying these axs groups. keep this axs prices at their prices for long enough, it becomes the new normal.

in 2008 i cringed at the price of a Merlin on the the cover page of Bicycling (i think) at $10000. Now, $10K MSRP for a bike is normal. And $5K is what is expected of a customer to pay when getting a decent brand new bike at the LBS.

i know the prices are obscene. to me it just means that i am not making enough money. but since so many people are, the groupsets sell.

remember carbon wheelset prices for thousand something dollars? Now, thousand something dollars is what you would buy a Chinese carbon wheelset for. And for two thousand something dollars you buy an Enve.

as i said, some people are making enough money and there are enough of such people to sustain these prices. if not, one would see the prices come down. but they are not.

i remember when the ibis ripmo came out a coupe for years ago and i was looking to buy a frameset. it was $3300 or so. and ibis could not make enough to satisfy the demand.

as i said, high prices are the norm. cycling is a hobby among so many people who are willing to pay the price the industry charges. and at least in the u.s., there are enough of such people.

but it is always relative. some people earn more and can buy a $13K pinarello F12 with camp eps. and i say, wow! but i earn more than some people and buy a $4k something or another and some other people say, wow! :banana:

[zzy]

First and foremost, remember that SRAM is basically the only company that actually enforces MSRPs and prevents the usual grey market online undercutting, which helps bike stores in this country. Second, SRAM got caught off guard by Di2 and had to catch up in a hurry. Third, they have to cram a lot of electronics into a small space and keep weights down at all costs. Honestly I was expecting WAY more warranty issues with eTap when it was new. But they got it right the first time, mostly. Finally, road biking is dying but the ultra-high end is still doing well, so why cut prices when they can still make good money with their newest R&D that trickles down? That said.. the new Di2 will be changing things a bit..

[sonicCows]

Funny you talk about R&D costs for SRAM, it's as if they put out groups that can do reliable front shifting

[jtbadge]

Funny you talk about R&D costs for SRAM, it's as if they put out groups that can do reliable front shifting

2010 calling!

[eBAUMANN]

It is what it is.

If folks don't want to, for whatever reason, there's plenty of other great options out there. Speak with your wallet and whatnot.

I'm personally a big SRAM electronic fan. Did I wince a bit when getting Red AXS? Sure. But it's been a flawless group that's worth every penny as far as I'm concerned.

I guess the question here is: How does one determine the "worth" of a group?

Compare a $235 (Red 22) vs $590 (Red 22 eTap) rear derailleur...is the eTap rd really more than "twice as good?" What are the things we used as quantifiers of worth? Weight? Build quality? Durability? Maintenance?

I have eTap (not AXS) on my road bike back in NJ. It does work well. But it does not have any real FUNCTIONAL advantage over any other electronic groupset. For me, the main selling point of di2/etap is in the maintenance and ease-of-use/setup departments. Once they are adjusted thats it, they just work, simply and beautifully, I 100% agree with that.

BUT, is paying (at least) twice as much for these groups actually "worth" it? Because, when it comes down to it, really all they are doing is enabling our own laziness and further removing us from that human-bike connection that some folks actually quite enjoy! Kinda like the difference between a manual and auto transmission in a car.

Yes, there will always be a demand for luxury items, I just dont understand how people can sell themselves on this stuff. "I want the latest and greatest" - but how is that really defined and why would that be the same thing for every person/use?

Personally, I would never, NEVER, put an eTap group on a bike destined for gravel/trails. The potential for damage is just too high...but I guess its kinda like the old used-luxury-car adage...if you cant afford the repair bills, you cant afford to car, no matter how cheap it is secondhand.

[PaMtbRider]

It's all about diminishing returns and if you are willing to pay to get that last few percent improvement.

[weiwentg]

First and foremost, remember that SRAM is basically the only company that actually enforces MSRPs and prevents the usual grey market online undercutting, which helps bike stores in this country. Second, SRAM got caught off guard by Di2 and had to catch up in a hurry. Third, they have to cram a lot of electronics into a small space and keep weights down at all costs. Honestly I was expecting WAY more warranty issues with eTap when it was new. But they got it right the first time, mostly. Finally, road biking is dying but the ultra-high end is still doing well, so why cut prices when they can still make good money with their newest R&D that trickles down? That said.. the new Di2 will be changing things a bit..

Actually, isn't another thing to remember is that after-market pricing is one thing, but OEM pricing is another? For example, the GRX 2x Cervelo Aspero is $4,200. The Force AXS 1 version is $6k. That version also gains carbon wheels relative to the GRX 2x. I'm having a harder time thinking of a manufacturer that offers something like a Force AXS and a GRX Di2 version of the same bike, but I suspect the pricing disparity wouldn't be big. Spesh is pricing the 2021 Diverge Pro at $6,700 with Force AXS, and the 2020 Diverge Pro with Ultegra Di2 had an MSRP of $6,700 as well.

[eBAUMANN]

It's all about diminishing returns and if you are willing to pay to get that last few percent improvement.

"How much do i need to pay to not have to adjust cable tension and learn how to shift properly" (again, did I mention I own and enjoy etap and di2 bikes?)

Electronic group are just enabling laziness on our part, with perceived "improvements" based on the removal of human error from the equation.
Which I guess counts...

In best-case-use scenarios, I really dont think there is much of a difference in shifting performance between mechanical and electronic.

[mtechnica]

I dunno who can afford to buy this stuff but apparently people can. All I know is for $3600 you can get an entire canyon aeroad with ultegra and aero wheels so $2500 for just a group that has no functional benefit versus ultegra seems silly to me, but that's just me. If cost were no object sure etap sounds great and I'm not hating on anyone that buys it, but whether it makes you faster or a better rider, doubt. Also the fastest climber I know has ultegra on his bike. No amount of etap is going to help you hang with this guy.

[kppolich]

"How much do i need to pay to not have to adjust cable tension and learn how to shift properly" (again, did I mention I own and enjoy etap and di2 bikes?)

Electronic group are just enabling laziness on our part, with perceived "improvements" based on the removal of human error from the equation.
Which I guess counts...

In best-case-use scenarios, I really dont think there is much of a difference in shifting performance between mechanical and electronic.

Never having to replace a cable and having less stuff hanging off my bike and a few less tools needed did it for me. I still have mechanical on my CX bike, because it's going to get beat up.

[nmrt]

i have used the axs groupsets on demo bike rides. they work great! the shifting is so fast and so precise. so much "better" and so much faster than my mech groupsets. but here was my take on it: i only get to enjoy the shifting when i shift. and while on a ride (at least where i live), i am not shifting as much. compared to, let's say, a bike that to me has an amazing ride quality and feel to it. this ride quality, unlike shifting, i enjoy ALL the time. so, rather than spend my money on axs which i only get to enjoy a small part of the time, i will spend my money on getting a bike frame that rides great!

having said all of this, if the axs were lighter than, let's say, sram red mechanical, i would buy it. hah hah :):banana::help:

[R3awak3n]

Every fancy groupset is way overpriced but it is what it is. Either you want it and can afford it and buy it or you wait till you find a lightly used one.

I have only once bought a brand new grouppo, campy chorus from the UK for $600 (someone said those were the days and I agree, that was a damn bargain, still have it on my bike and its one of my favorites). All my other stuff is second hand, I have a 1st gen ETAP which is fantastic and because of that I think the force stuff is worth it (if you have the money). I think etap is way more advanced than di2 or eps, they really did a good job and moved the whole electronic shifting forward either you like it or not.

The whole sram doesnt shift well in the front is bs, that old crappy sram, the new stuff is really good.

And for whoever said I don't know who can afford this stuff... Its actually funny you mention that but have been a member here for a long time.

[cred0021]

The real ripoff is the price of SRAM/Shimano in the US versus Europe.

I ordered a full SRAM Force AXS 46/33 groupset with rim brakes/shifters (US price $2300) from Germany with a reshipping service - ever after getting bilked for $300 between shipping/import fees, I came out around $500 cheaper ordering from Europe...

[mtechnica]

And for whoever said I don't know who can afford this stuff... Its actually funny you mention that but have been a member here for a long time.

I’m half joking, but that said I don’t know many people IRL with really expensive bikes.

[Plum Hill]

Never thought I’d consider an electronic group, but as arthritis takes a firm hold on my paws, electronic looks better every day.

[ColonelJLloyd]

2010 calling!

Haha. Beat me to it.

That said, I'm actually riding SRAM stuff from 2010 on my road/gravel bike (XX 42/28 crank and XX FD) and it is literally the best front shifting I've ever experienced. And I've ridden and wrenched on a fair bit of kit.

[FlashUNC]

I guess the question here is: How does one determine the "worth" of a group?

Compare a $235 (Red 22) vs $590 (Red 22 eTap) rear derailleur...is the eTap rd really more than "twice as good?" What are the things we used as quantifiers of worth? Weight? Build quality? Durability? Maintenance?

I have eTap (not AXS) on my road bike back in NJ. It does work well. But it does not have any real FUNCTIONAL advantage over any other electronic groupset. For me, the main selling point of di2/etap is in the maintenance and ease-of-use/setup departments. Once they are adjusted thats it, they just work, simply and beautifully, I 100% agree with that.

BUT, is paying (at least) twice as much for these groups actually "worth" it? Because, when it comes down to it, really all they are doing is enabling our own laziness and further removing us from that human-bike connection that some folks actually quite enjoy! Kinda like the difference between a manual and auto transmission in a car.

Yes, there will always be a demand for luxury items, I just dont understand how people can sell themselves on this stuff. "I want the latest and greatest" - but how is that really defined and why would that be the same thing for every person/use?

Personally, I would never, NEVER, put an eTap group on a bike destined for gravel/trails. The potential for damage is just too high...but I guess its kinda like the old used-luxury-car adage...if you cant afford the repair bills, you cant afford to car, no matter how cheap it is secondhand.

It's simple really. The features, the functionality, the improvements over an already solid 11 speed version made it a no brainer.

Life's short, ride what you want.

[Bob Ross]

Meh... I look at the price of frames I like. Then I figure that any groupset worth strapping onto a frame that sells for $N is probably going to also sell for $N. It's been like that for decades.

[estilley]

Haha. Beat me to it.

That said, I'm actually riding SRAM stuff from 2010 on my road/gravel bike (XX 42/28 crank and XX FD) and it is literally the best front shifting I've ever experienced. And I've ridden and wrenched on a fair bit of kit.

Ha! I actually really miss my bike that had Rival 10 speed. Seemed a lot smoother than my 6800 that I thought I paid a lot for in the Ribble heydays.

Current project is 5700 brifters, 1x up front with a race face chainring, and a 9-speed shimano MTB derailleur in the back. And it works...

Having said that, yeah I'll probably get some hydros on the next bike...:banana:

[choke]

The entire industry has jumped the shark.
Again.
and again...
and again...
You are 100% correct.

[Jaybee]

Consumers make product choices on a variety of other criteria besides value and functionality. Honestly, the decision to ride anything above say, a CAAD12 with Tiagra isn't based on a value argument, but an "I want this, it makes me feel good" argument which is just fine and not a character flaw, IMO. I'm not going to start policing recreational spending, especially when that's what drives innovation in the industry.

[AngryScientist]

yes, i think the price of top end components is out of control, as well as top end frames.

it's not just that the price of top end kit is keeping pace with other market stuff either.


The sticker price of a ducati monster 797 is $9,295.

The price of an s-works AXS tarmac is $11,000.

that's messed up.

[Bostic]

What 46/30 for a standard threaded bottom bracket cranks are confirmed to work well with 12 speed Sram? As in someone has been running them for a while and there isn't a bad trade off of "it almost works but throws the chain when you do x shift." I'm thinking of getting the Force etap but don't want the 46/33 stock size. I also don't want the 43/30 that they offer in Force.

Easton Carbon, FSA SL-K Adventure, Rotor?

[FlashUNC]

What 46/30 for a standard threaded bottom bracket cranks are confirmed to work well with 12 speed Sram? As in someone has been running them for a while and there isn't a bad trade off of "it almost works but throws the chain when you do x shift." I'm thinking of getting the Force etap but don't want the 46/33 stock size. I also don't want the 43/30 that they offer in Force.

Easton Carbon, FSA SL-K Adventure, Rotor?

Been running a 46x30 Rotor Aldhu for a few months now with no issues w/Force AXS.

[PaMtbRider]

yes, i think the price of top end components is out of control, as well as top end frames.

it's not just that the price of top end kit is keeping pace with other market stuff either.


The sticker price of a ducati monster 797 is $9,295.

The price of an s-works AXS tarmac is $11,000.

that's messed up.

I get what your saying and agree but a more fair comparison would be the top end S-works compared to the top end Ducati Monster 1200S at $17,595

[tomato coupe]

I get what your saying and agree but a more fair comparison would be the top end S-works compared to the top end Ducati Monster 1200S at $17,595
Still not a fair comparison. A moderately-optioned Ducati Diavel 1260 is in the $30,000 range. Or, you can compare the base price of the cheapest Ducati (Monster 797 @ $9,295) to the intro level Tarmac at $2,000.

[mtechnica]

Still not a fair comparison. A moderately-optioned Ducati Diavel 1260 is in the $30,000 range. Or, you can compare the base price of the cheapest Ducati (Monster 797 @ $9,295) to the intro level Tarmac at $2,000.

Nope still doesn’t make sense. It has to cost way more to make a motorcycle than a bicycle. I think the industry is making a killing off mass produced CF frames, and why a dura ace component costs 10x more than a tiagra doesn’t make sense from a mfg standpoint either.

[Burning Pines]

There is really no reason to spend more...in 2020 its almost impossible to buy components that work poorly...hell, I was impressed by the not-bad-at-all shifting performance of the most recent TIAGRA group. TIAGRA.

In college I rode like 20,000 miles on a bike with a 9 speed Tiagra shifter (1x cross bike). Montana dirt roads, commuting, winter, trails, and cross racing. Held up great and was still working as far as I know when I donated it to the co-op. The low end stuff has been perfectly fine for a long, long time.

That said honestly I would have thought Etap was more, lol. At least SRAM is doing something that differentiates it from other drivetrains. The idea of bolting on a derailleur with no wiring or cables is actually the first time electronic shifting feels like it's bringing something appealing to the table, to me. I would still never buy it, but my annual income is probably like half of the average USian road cyclist's.

[fa63]

I don't know if the price is justified; the market/consumers dictate that. That said, I installed my first AXS groupset (rim brake) today, and it took me a little under an hour with me taking my time and also watching SRAM's video on how to install / set it up. And it shifted beautifully both in the stand and during the test ride on the road. Also, I noticed the drivetrain was very quiet.

Later in the day, I had to fish out a broken derailleur cable out of a Campy Record shifter which was not fun. Made me appreciate the simplicity of wireless shifting even more.

[tomato coupe]

Nope still doesn’t make sense. It has to cost way more to make a motorcycle than a bicycle. I think the industry is making a killing off mass produced CF frames, and why a dura ace component costs 10x more than a tiagra doesn’t make sense from a mfg standpoint either.
If the bike industry is making such a killer profit, why doesn't someone come in and undercut them and steal all their business?

[joosttx]

It’s easier to step up, easier to maintain, remains in perfect alignment longer, no weight penalties, shifts are perfect every time and supplies endless amount of data about your cycling habits. I say all this without using the FD as I have gone 1x. There are definite improvements. If you are a person who like things to just work and prefer to ride, not tinker on your bike, and have disposable income I highly recommend.

[mtechnica]

If the bike industry is making such a killer profit, why doesn't someone come in and undercut them and steal all their business?

Nobody wants no name Chinese frames I guess, at least not for much money.

[tomato coupe]

Nobody wants no name Chinese frames I guess, at least not for much money.
Why would it have to be no-name? If, as you say, bike manufacturers are operating with a killer profit, why wouldn't a reputable company jump in and undercut them, and steal all their business?

[mtechnica]

Why would it have to be no-name? If, as you say, bike manufacturers are operating with a killer profit, why wouldn't a reputable company jump in and undercut them, and steal all their business?

It’s complicated, are you saying I’m wrong and companies selling a mass produced Asian made frame for $3000+ aren’t making a large profit??

[54ny77]

What's this wireless you're all speaking of?

Now if you'll excuse me I need to go ride my penny farthing.

[R3awak3n]

It’s complicated, are you saying I’m wrong and companies selling a mass produced Asian made frame for $3000+ aren’t making a large profit??

They are definitely making profit but maybe less profit than it seems. I am sure the frames cost a few hundred bucks to make but there is so much that goes with it that the margin of profit is probably a lot smaller than what we think.

[tomato coupe]

It’s complicated, are you saying I’m wrong and companies selling a mass produced Asian made frame for $3000+ aren’t making a large profit??
I think their profits are in line with other outdoor industries. By no means are they making "killer profits" as you called them.

[earlfoss]

The pricing is BS. They can justify it however they want but at the end of the day it's bs.

[tomato coupe]

The pricing is BS. They can justify it however they want but at the end of the day it's bs.
Why is it BS?

[joosttx]

yes, i think the price of top end components is out of control, as well as top end frames.

it's not just that the price of top end kit is keeping pace with other market stuff either.


The sticker price of a ducati monster 797 is $9,295.

The price of an s-works AXS tarmac is $11,000.

that's messed up.

A rope and a YouTube video on how to make a hangman's noose is a lot cheaper than a Ducati monster 797. I think that is a fairer comparison than comparing that motorcycle to a bike.

[weisan]

The old adage still applies...if you have to swallow a frog, do it quickly before you change your mind.

I almost bought a brand new AXS groupset a few months ago. We submitted an order at the store. The sales guy called me at home later that day to tell me he had made a mistake. The price he quoted did not include the crankset. If I want it, it will add a couple hundreds more to the original price. I told him very nicely over the phone, "no thanks, please go ahead and cancel my order."

Whew!...dodged a bullet.

Back to messing around with my shimano 10 speed system...that has the cables sticking in front, yikes! :eek:

:D

[mtechnica]

They are definitely making profit but maybe less profit than it seems. I am sure the frames cost a few hundred bucks to make but there is so much that goes with it that the margin of profit is probably a lot smaller than what we think.

If they’re only making a small profit on a multi thousand dollar frame then they’re just giving away low end carbon frames? It just seems to me that the higher end frames probably only cost a little bit more to make but are sold for way more money.

[ERK55]

yes, i think the price of top end components is out of control, as well as top end frames.

it's not just that the price of top end kit is keeping pace with other market stuff either.


The sticker price of a ducati monster 797 is $9,295.

The price of an s-works AXS tarmac is $11,000.

that's messed up.
Wow- agreed. That is totally messed up.

[FlashUNC]

If they’re only making a small profit on a multi thousand dollar frame then they’re just giving away low end carbon frames? It just seems to me that the higher end frames probably only cost a little bit more to make but are sold for way more money.

You're thinking about it entirely backwards. The frame tooling, molds and all that investment happens with the top end stuff first. It's the bottom end frames in a few years time that benefit from that investment in the top end stuff.

If anything, the lower-end stuff is more profitable than the higher end bits, because (in theory) all that R&D and cap investment has been paid off by the higher end stuff.

[tomato coupe]

You're thinking about it entirely backwards. The frame tooling, molds and all that investment happens with the top end stuff first. It's the bottom end frames in a few years time that benefit from that investment in the top end stuff.

If anything, the lower-end stuff is more profitable than the higher end bits, because (in theory) all that R&D and cap investment has been paid off by the higher end stuff.
Yeah, it's not unheard of for companies to break even or lose money on their high end products. The cachet of the high end stuff boosts sales of the lower price products and results in higher overall profits.

[jm714]

What about all the liability involved with a bike? If someone crashes out and thinks there is a chance to get some $$$’s out of a manufacturer then they are going to file a claim. Sometimes it’s cheaper to payout then to defend.

[nmrt]

are the companies breaking even, even after charging, let's say, $6500 for a F12 frameset because they are not charging enough or due to bloat or inefficiencies within the corporation (read CEO salaries etc)? I mean if the revenue is there but the profit is not even when they are selling $8K bikes then the problem lies somewhere else. Especially when the frames are being made in Asia!

Yeah, it's not unheard of for companies to break even or lose money on their high end products. The cachet of the high end stuff boosts sales of the lower price products and results in higher overall profits.

[cinema]

are the companies breaking even, even after charging, let's say, $6500 for a F12 frameset because they are not charging enough or due to bloat or inefficiencies within the corporation (read CEO salaries etc)? I mean if the revenue is there but the profit is not even when they are selling $8K bikes then the problem lies somewhere else. Especially when the frames are being made in Asia!

what's really hurting these companies is that by moving production away from places like the US and EU, they take with them the middle class that could have bought and enjoyed their products. what's left are the smaller number of wealthy people who can and will pay $$$. So they increase the price as much as the market will bear for that demo. crazy to imagine that trek and many others used to make steel, aluminum and carbon bikes in america.

Like the Pinarello f12 you mention; Pina was sold to a private equity firm if i remember correctly. often after these companies get sold to private equity firms, they move overseas, cut costs to aggressively make back their money or get overloaded with debt and eventually file for bankruptcy at the taxpayers expense. not saying thats what will happen but they have to increase prices and profits to provide return on investment which is normal.

I think some sram owned stuff is still american made actually, and have found their support of legacy brands they've acquired quite good. They were able to send me the rebuild kit for a 26in rock shox suspension fork from like 2002. Etap, without parallel in form and function on the market, is worth at least as much as top level groupsets from other manufacturers.

[ColonelJLloyd]

The collective expertise of this forum membership never ceases to impress.

[dbnm]

lots of bikes come with AXS now
https://www.sram.com/en/life/stories/red-etap-axs-factory-builds

[m_sasso]

I blame it all on those dam unions!

These discussions are interesting at the same time humorous and entertaining.

All the electrical sockets in my house still have wires running to them, just like the cables on my bikes.

[maxim809]

I've wanted eTap since it's original incarnation, and I promised myself I'd build a v2 eTap when it came out. I waited patiently. I still don't have an AXS bike build.

For me, it is still too expensive, but I believe the price is justified.

SRAM was first to market with still no equivalent competitors on both 12spd wide gear ratios, and the fully wireless front. FSA WE doesn't count.

We consumers live in the modern day Information Age, so wireless electronics can appear trivial and taken for granted by us. But SRAM has accomplished shipping a highly reliable, secure, wireless shifting protocol from scratch. For a niche market I remind you.

The technology is proven in Grand Tours with +150 riders whose profession relies on bulletproof equipment, and eTap has proven to coexist with each of these pro's utilizing some form of wireless sensor (PM/HRM/Headmounts). A more aggressive use case is mass-start Gran Fondos with even larger number of cycles all piled on top of each other with their ANT+/BT devices and smart phones -- never mind the non-cycling related external interferences.

Given it's a wireless tech that ships globally, SRAM likely had to go through several runs of passing certification. If your product only requires one functional disciple (mixed Mechanical engineers) that's one thing. But mixing the spectrum of hardware, electrical, firmware, software, security/safety, battery, testers for each of these, etc... the bill and complexity to run an org like this goes up.

I think it's a marvel they achieved the quality, security and reliability that they did. My Wahoo Kickr drops out like crazy, and it's mostly mitigated with a 10ft cable ANT+ dongle but still not solid. I've experienced tons of bad routers, and my Stages PM and sometimes Garmin Vectors both drop out occasionally.


None of us know SRAM's balance sheet so we don't know their margins. But they can only be making money, breaking even, or losing cash.

In the best case scenario they are making a killing which means potentially better products down the line for all of us. Even in the worst case, I want SRAM to keep their lights on.

I think SRAM deserves to get paid by the customers who want their products.

Just can't be me paying for the product. Still top expensive but I'll keep holding out for affordable v3, or 4, or 5.... or...

[bfd]

I've wanted eTap since it's original incarnation, and I promised myself I'd build a v2 eTap when it came out. I waited patiently. I still don't have an AXS bike build.

For me, it is still too expensive, but I believe the price is justified.

SRAM was first to market with still no equivalent competitors on both 12spd wide gear ratios, and the fully wireless front. FSA WE doesn't count.

We consumers live in the modern day Information Age, so wireless electronics can appear trivial and taken for granted by us. But SRAM has accomplished shipping a highly reliable, secure, wireless shifting protocol from scratch. For a niche market I remind you.

The technology is proven in Grand Tours with +150 riders whose profession relies on bulletproof equipment, and eTap has proven to coexist with each of these pro's utilizing some form of wireless sensor (PM/HRM/Headmounts). A more aggressive use case is mass-start Gran Fondos with even larger number of cycles all piled on top of each other with their ANT+/BT devices and smart phones -- never mind the non-cycling related external interferences.

Given it's a wireless tech that ships globally, SRAM likely had to go through several runs of passing certification. If your product only requires one functional disciple (mixed Mechanical engineers) that's one thing. But mixing the spectrum of hardware, electrical, firmware, software, security/safety, battery, testers for each of these, etc... the bill and complexity to run an org like this goes up.

I think it's a marvel they achieved the quality, security and reliability that they did. My Wahoo Kickr drops out like crazy, and it's mostly mitigated with a 10ft cable ANT+ dongle but still not solid. I've experienced tons of bad routers, and my Stages PM and sometimes Garmin Vectors both drop out occasionally.


None of us know SRAM's balance sheet so we don't know their margins. But they can only be making money, breaking even, or losing cash.

In the best case scenario they are making a killing which means potentially better products down the line for all of us. Even in the worst case, I want SRAM to keep their lights on.

I think SRAM deserves to get paid by the customers who want their products.

Just can't be me paying for the product. Still top expensive but I'll keep holding out for affordable v3, or 4, or 5.... or...

Well said! Another thing people seem to forget was back in 2014 or 15, Sram had a recall on its first road disc brakes. It was a disaster and supposedly cost them anywhere from $10-15 Million dollars - ouch! Prior to that time, Sram use to sponsor at least 3-4 Pro teams in the Tour. After that, they Sponsor 1 maybe 2 teams. They were hurting. But as stated above they plugged along and came out with a wonderful wireless shifting system! I have etap and it works great. And compared to AXS, its a bargain too. However, AXS is way more advance and that shows Sram isn't sleeping on its laurels.

For mechanical shifters, I still like Campy and chose Chorus 11 for my last build. But I have room for one more bike and am considering Sram AXS. My only concern is the weird gearing. I'm an old guy and don't need a 10t cog. If Sram came out with like a 12-32 cassette, I'd be all over it. That's what I have on my Chorus 11. For my etap 11 bike, I'm actually running a Campy rear wheel with a Chorus 11 12-29 cassette. So I may stick with Campy 11 since they offer gearing that are much more usable to me. Of course, YMMV!

Good Luck!

[jtbadge]

Well said! Another thing people seem to forget was back in 2014 or 15, Sram had a recall on its first road disc brakes. It was a disaster and supposedly cost them anywhere from $10-15 Million dollars - ouch! Prior to that time, Sram use to sponsor at least 3-4 Pro teams in the Tour. After that, they Sponsor 1 maybe 2 teams. They were hurting. But as stated above they plugged along and came out with a wonderful wireless shifting system! I have etap and it works great. And compared to AXS, its a bargain too. However, AXS is way more advance and that shows Sram isn't sleeping on its laurels.

For mechanical shifters, I still like Campy and chose Chorus 11 for my last build. But I have room for one more bike and am considering Sram AXS. My only concern is the weird gearing. I'm an old guy and don't need a 10t cog. If Sram came out with like a 12-32 cassette, I'd be all over it. That's what I have on my Chorus 11. For my etap 11 bike, I'm actually running a Campy rear wheel with a Chorus 11 12-29 cassette. So I may stick with Campy 11 since they offer gearing that are much more usable to me. Of course, YMMV!

Good Luck!

You're a great candidate for the new 43t crank, 43/10 is a slightly lower/easier gear than 53/12.

[oldpotatoe]

IDK, retail of a Super Record disc group is almost $5k. Red AXS is a bargain!

How about apples to apples..

$2100 on ebay for Record/EPS/Hydro

AND SR EPS/disc runs anywhere from around $3500 to $4000....
The technology is proven in Grand Tours with +150 riders

Well, in the GTs of 2019, 2 teams had sram, so that totaled 16 riders per race...

[oldpotatoe]

"How much do i need to pay to not have to adjust cable tension and learn how to shift properly" (again, did I mention I own and enjoy etap and di2 bikes?)

Electronic group are just enabling laziness on our part, with perceived "improvements" based on the removal of human error from the equation.
Which I guess counts...

In best-case-use scenarios, I really dont think there is much of a difference in shifting performance between mechanical and electronic.

Agree..if you don't like the $ of sram 12s Etap just get a sram 12s mechanical group.....oh wait a minute...:)

[mcteague]

Ha, I guess I should have thrown a wider net!
I didnt even look at campy prices...which are always inflated because "its campy." $5k is ridiculous. I'm glad I didnt know about that.

The entire industry has jumped the shark.
Again.
and again...
and again...

A year ago I got the Campy Record 12s mechanical group from Merlin Cycles for $1292 shipped to the US. Not bad considering. I know electronic is more but there are decent deals out there.

Tim

[Dave]

The prices quoted by the OP are not even complete groups. That's the price for nothing but the shifters and derailleurs. The cheapest rim brake AXS group is $2328 at Colorado Cyclist. I paid $1060 for each of my two chorus 12 complete groups.

A complete red AXS group is $3488 at Colorado cyclist.

[hellvetica]

Seems some of you forgot that Di2 10s was over $2500 when it first launched.

The pricing will come down. As all things.

I like the wireless/aesthetic look of eTap, it functions great, and I have no complaints. I also have Di2 on another bike, which also works perfect and was like $500. To each their own.

Also, read less radavist. That's all marketing noise anyway.

[Bostic]

Been running a 46x30 Rotor Aldhu for a few months now with no issues w/Force AXS.

Thank you for confirming. If I can’t have my triple I want a gear range that is close to it. 46x10 is a bit less than 52x11. The 30 ring I already know my legs like for extended climbs as I’ve used one for years with various Shimano and Campagnolo 10 speed setups.

Also to add to the cost is the rear wheel.

[Clean39T]

A year ago I got the Campy Record 12s mechanical group from Merlin Cycles for $1292 shipped to the US. Not bad considering. I know electronic is more but there are decent deals out there.

Tim

I'm checking daily to see if they're going to have another Campy sale :hello:

[lavi]

One thing to add is the absolute simplicity of wireless. Some folks may like dicking with threading cables through frames and whatnot. I, however, am not that person. If it's a standard frame, with external cable guides, I don't mind running cables every now and again. There is something extremely satisfying about the tactile feel and sound of cutting through cables.
However, on newer frames, most if not all of the cabling is internal. Depending, that can be an absolute nightmare. Again, some folks may love getting out in the garage and love the tinkering.

For me, with a Dogma F8, I thoroughly enjoyed the fact that I did not have to fish cables or wires. I can see that di2, if that was my preference, would not be that bad as the fishing of cables would hopefully only be done once. I was (very) briefly considering running Campy mech. There is no way in hell I would want to **** with cables every year or so. No way.

The time to set up the shifting was limited to bolting on the DRs and putting the shifters where I wanted them. And that was it.

[cgolvin]

WRT to the OP, I don't think it's possible to assess 'justified', other than to say that if they're selling then apparently so, and it seems they are selling. Good for SRAM.

Clearly we each assess value differently. From what I have read here, wireless setup and clean look are a big plus over mechanical, and reliability seems to be very good. Personally, I value the ability to fix things myself and philosophically appreciate the relative simplicity of a bicycle. That doesn't mean I like dealing with broken cables, just that I can. So my choices will remain mechanical (I like Campy but recognize it's a personal preference, not a jihad) and frames with external cabling.

The one thing I'm surprised that no one mentioned re: AXS is the inability to replace chainrings. Granted, these things last a long time, but still…worn chainrings == new crankset (and maybe new power meter)? Really?

[mtechnica]

The one thing I'm surprised that no one mentioned re: AXS is the inability to replace chainrings. Granted, these things last a long time, but still…worn chainrings == new crankset (and maybe new power meter)? Really?

Come on man we all know nobody rides their bikes enough to wear out the chainrings.

[Cantdog]

I just paid 700$ for a rear mech so this thing better be amazing.

[eBAUMANN]

I just paid 700$ for a rear mech so this thing better be amazing.

Spoiler Alert: its gonna move the chain up and down the cassette.

:fight:

Seems some of you forgot that Di2 10s was over $2500 when it first launched.

The pricing will come down. As all things.

I like the wireless/aesthetic look of eTap, it functions great, and I have no complaints. I also have Di2 on another bike, which also works perfect and was like $500. To each their own.

Also, read less radavist. That's all marketing noise anyway.

Yes but Di2 WAS electronic shifting back then, there was no other competition and the tech has trickled down over the years to a quite affordable price point these days.
eTap remains $$$$$ years later, even the trickle down to force is unaffordable.
Add AXS into the mix and somehow the cycle starts all over again because they've invented a new freehub body standard and went to 12s?
Big freakin deal.

Its not like eTap holds a functional advantage over any 11s Di2 group from the past 5 years.
It all works quite well.
I guess it just comes down to the 11s vs 12s factor...which is just "marketing noise anyway."

I never thought id reach retrogrouchdom so early in my 30's but man...the industry sure has me craving a steel frame/fork with record 10 right about now.

[tomato coupe]

The one thing I'm surprised that no one mentioned re: AXS is the inability to replace chainrings. Granted, these things last a long time, but still…worn chainrings == new crankset (and maybe new power meter)? Really?
You don't have to replace the whole crankset.

[Cantdog]

Spoiler Alert: its gonna move the chain up and down the cassette.

:fight:

Yeah but I get to have an app on my phone so there

[kppolich]

I just paid 700$ for a rear mech so this thing better be amazing.

Shifts perfect every time, never have to replace a cable, customizable shift patterns via a mobile app, built in fluid clutch, works across road, gravel, and mtb uses with eagle, actively communicates with a FD to auto trim, operates on a secure channel, has removable and rechargeable batteries.....

[saab2000]

Of course the cost of these groups is ludicrous BS. But nobody is forcing anyone to buy it.

I had a fantastic ride yesterday on my 5800 equipped bike and never wished for anything more.

I’d love to try AXS Red. But it’s probably not happening anytime soon.

For those who go that route, more power to them.

At least people aren’t whining about the cost of Campagnolo anymore! :D

[eBAUMANN]

Shifts perfect every time

--- every electronic group does...

never have to replace a cable

--- how many times did you actually replace the cables on your previous bikes?

customizable shift patterns via a mobile app

--- i dont even know what this means

built in fluid clutch

--- so a clutch...but juicier? didnt realize there was something wrong with existing clutch designs...

works across road, gravel, and mtb uses with eagle

--- so does any MTB rear derailleur. ive been riding an XT Di2 rear mech, 42x11-42 for a couple months...works great on pavement, gravel, sand, loam, grass, dirt...and mtb. dont take it on chipseal though...need special rd for that ;)

actively communicates with a FD to auto trim

--- i didnt realize we were still designing groups that NEEDED trim to accommodate our cross chaining habits. i setup a bike with rival 10 the other day, RIVAL 10 SPEED that shifted across the entire cassette in the big and small ring without any sort of rub or trim required. A smartly designed and correctly positioned FD should not require trim. and just to be clear, in no way am i suggesting rival 10 to be the pinnacle of shifting technology...it just kinda floored me that it worked as well as it did.

operates on a secure channel

--- well yea, i would certainly hope so...

has removable and rechargeable batteries.....

--- have you owned a di2 bike? battery life is about the last thing i ever worried about...they last for weeks/months and having it inside the frame makes for a much better looking derailleur, IMO.



like a game of ping pong!

[mtechnica]

Shifts perfect every time, never have to replace a cable, customizable shift patterns via a mobile app, built in fluid clutch, works across road, gravel, and mtb uses with eagle, actively communicates with a FD to auto trim, operates on a secure channel, has removable and rechargeable batteries.....

Can we talk about the fact that a shimano 105 rear derailleur also shifts perfectly every time, and you almost certainly spend less time dealing with it - replacing the cable once a year or something and spending 3 seconds adjusting a barrel adjuster now and then, than having to charge it and fuss with apps on your phone?

[Cantdog]

I ****ing hope it can make me a cocktail too

[joosttx]

Can we talk about the fact that a shimano 105 rear derailleur also shifts perfectly every time, and you almost certainly spend less time dealing with it - replacing the cable once a year or something and spending 3 seconds adjusting a barrel adjuster now and then, than having to charge it and fuss with apps on your phone?

I have experience with both, a 105 derailleur and an AXS one. The AXS does shift better (faster, more precise and consistent). Set up is soooooooooooooooo much easier with AXS too. With that said 105 does a great job and I do mean great. AXS is just next level.

[vincenz]

Is no one going to talk about the design and materials of the components?

The materials used look mid-tier, even at the Red level. Design is also too utilitarian, big, chunky, and blocky.

I don’t doubt it works and sets up well, but I can’t get past the aesthetic. Not subtle, classy, or refined imo. I suppose I have more expectations at the price point.

[jtbadge]

Is no one going to talk about the design and materials of the components?

The materials used look mid-tier, even at the Red level. Design is also too utilitarian, big, chunky, and blocky.

I don’t doubt it works and sets up well, but I can’t get past the aesthetic. Not subtle, classy, or refined imo. I suppose I have more expectations at the price point.

IDK, have you seen Chorus 12?

[cgolvin]

You don't have to replace the whole crankset.

SRAM seems to say otherwise, at least for PM-equipped sets:

https://sram.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360017316293-When-power-meter-equipped-SRAM-RED-AXS-2x-road-chainrings-wear-out-does-the-power-meter-have-to-be-replaced-

[cgolvin]

Come on man we all know nobody rides their bikes enough to wear out the chainrings.

Maybe not, but how about swapping for varying ratios? I do that.

[maxim809]

Well, in the GTs of 2019, 2 teams had sram, so that totaled 16 riders per race...

You aren't wrong about the total 2 teams, and like yourself I am fully aware of this fact too.

However, please consider taking the whole sentence into context. What you are doing is isolating a fragment of what I said, thereby mitigating the key takeaway that eTap has proven to coexist with hundreds of other sensors chatting amongst each other in a concentrated space.

To expand the flip-side, my Wahoo Kickr's Bluetooth drops out in a room that has a smartphone, HRM, a router, a turbo fan, a computer, and a single rider (me) as they only wireless "interferences". This product is a stationary trainer that doesn't need to optimize for low power usage or low weight. There are countless articles and FAQS online on how to increase stability of the Kickr, many of them suggesting I methodically move away my fan, phone, router, and eventually everything else I need to use in tandem with your stationary trainer. The goal is clearly to isolate what is causing signal interference, and position them or completely remove them out of the room so the Wahoo can talk.

That... is crazy to me. A stationary trainer has no excuse for having such flawed wireless stability that is this widespread. I could look the other way if I were a one-off, but a Google search shows it's not. Their final suggested workaround is to buy an aftermarket 10ft cable & dongle to place right underneath the flywheel. A cable. To boost wireless signal strength. The irony was almost lost on me!

To this day I'm still baffled why the Wahoo Kickr Core didn't put a bigger antenna on their already 46lbs wall-powered product. Or maybe they did, and their wireless protocol software stack is built poorly and somehow they justified $900 for this level of quality.

It goes to demonstrate these feats of engineering are not as trivial below the surface.

And somehow, SRAM has managed to fit the requirements of low power consumption, aesthetics, weatherproof durability, stable coexistence with other wireless devices, and NOT getting hacked -- all into tiny pieces of mobile electronics without a huge honking antenna.

[tomato coupe]

SRAM seems to say otherwise, at least for PM-equipped sets:

https://sram.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360017316293-When-power-meter-equipped-SRAM-RED-AXS-2x-road-chainrings-wear-out-does-the-power-meter-have-to-be-replaced-
You replace the chain rings as a pair, or the chain rings and power meter assembly. You do not replace the whole crankset.

[FlashUNC]

WRT to the OP, I don't think it's possible to assess 'justified', other than to say that if they're selling then apparently so, and it seems they are selling. Good for SRAM.

Clearly we each assess value differently. From what I have read here, wireless setup and clean look are a big plus over mechanical, and reliability seems to be very good. Personally, I value the ability to fix things myself and philosophically appreciate the relative simplicity of a bicycle. That doesn't mean I like dealing with broken cables, just that I can. So my choices will remain mechanical (I like Campy but recognize it's a personal preference, not a jihad) and frames with external cabling.

The one thing I'm surprised that no one mentioned re: AXS is the inability to replace chainrings. Granted, these things last a long time, but still…worn chainrings == new crankset (and maybe new power meter)? Really?

For Red AXS the power meter and rings are an integrated, milled unit. So you're replacing the equivalent of a spider and rings, not a full crankset. Force AXS uses a more traditional separate spider and ring setup. So if the Red stuff bothers you, just buy Force.

[cgolvin]

For Red AXS the power meter and rings are an integrated, milled unit. So you're replacing the equivalent of a spider and rings, not a full crankset. Force AXS uses a more traditional separate spider and ring setup. So if the Red stuff bothers you, just buy Force.

Appreciate the clarification(s), still seems like a significant added cost when only the rings have worn out (especially the power meter).

But, as I said, there's no Red vs Force choice for me, I'm not buying either.

[maxim809]

By the way, the answer the original topic question succinctly:

The pricing of the eTAP group is justified. It is BS that I can't afford it.

[jadedaid]

I really, really like my OG eTap groupset. I have not had a single issue with it in a little over 9k of riding and that is despite riding it in salt ridden NY streets all winter and having perhaps a more lackadaisical approach to maintenance than the group deserves.

It is expensive, but it's in the same range as its di2 counterparts (give or take a few hundred based on deals, OEM pricing, etc.) so it's not priced unreasonably. I do note that the cheapest Tarmac with Force is considerably more expensive than a di2 ultegra but other manufacturers have better parity between the groupsets. I do think it's better than di2 in both concept and execution having ridden a DA di2. Black Friday is a good time if you can wait to save some money.

I don't like the arguments about how mechanical shifting is just as good, or nearly as good, or better value. I don't believe if you offered someone electronic or mechanical shifting anyone would choose mechanical shifting outside of specific applications (CX, adventure bikes, etc.) or if price was a factor. I feel that a lot of people knock electronic shifting just because they haven't tried it or because they don't like the concept. I can appreciate those who prefer mechanical from a philosophical perspective but otherwise, don't knock it until you try it. All my riding friends who have moved from mechanical to electronic agree that it's an upgrade.

Someone commented on 105 being good enough - there is no comparing eTap to something like 105. I have both, and it's not in the same ballpark. There is more maintenance on the 105, the levers are worse, the shifting is worse, the brakes are worse, the list goes on. The only area where the 105 wins is price and hood shape if you prefer the shimano hoods. Not to say 105 is bad, but it's not the same.

All that to say, I think it does boil down to the simple questions of 'can you afford it' and 'do you see enough value for yourself to justify that expense'. That is for everyone to answer for themselves.

[FlashUNC]

Appreciate the clarification(s), still seems like a significant added cost when only the rings have worn out (especially the power meter).

But, as I said, there's no Red vs Force choice for me, I'm not buying either.

SRAM has said for anyone who wears out the integrated unit and it needs replacement, they'll provide the replacement at half local retail price.

So the price is higher than what you'd spend on just rings from another manufacturer, but you are getting a new PM as part of the deal.

If you're already in Red AXS territory, the swap of the rings when/if they wear out ain't a cost concern.

[eBAUMANN]

SRAM seems to say otherwise, at least for PM-equipped sets:

https://sram.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360017316293-When-power-meter-equipped-SRAM-RED-AXS-2x-road-chainrings-wear-out-does-the-power-meter-have-to-be-replaced-

THE POWER METER IS ATTACHED TO CHAINRINGS?!?!?!?!
(https://www.jensonusa.com/SRAM-RED-AXS-Power-Meter-2X12-Chainring-Set)
Now ive seen everything, this is beyond idiotic.

I guess you can always just replace the spider for a non-PM option that used normal chainrings but then all your friends will stop hanging out with you.

[batman1425]

THE POWER METER IS ATTACHED TO CHAINRINGS?!?!?!?!
(https://www.jensonusa.com/SRAM-RED-AXS-Power-Meter-2X12-Chainring-Set)
Now ive seen everything, this is beyond idiotic.

I guess you can always just replace the spider for a non-PM option that used normal chainrings but then all your friends will stop hanging out with you.

For the red version. The red axs crank has the ring and spider integrated together, PM version or not, just like the cannondale spider ring. The force crank, the pieces are separate and a separate PM spider is available.

[cinema]

lol... i've never even had a cateye :help:

[weisan]

lol... i've never even had a cateye :help:

https://66.media.tumblr.com/328b0f93a2384ebcdf16453116c7e7e5/tumblr_n33mu2Rgz61s2wio8o1_500.gif

[ColonelJLloyd]

All that to say, I think it does boil down to the simple questions of 'can you afford it' and 'do you see enough value for yourself to justify that expense'. That is for everyone to answer for themselves.

It really is as simple as this.

A lot of the comments here are a little Grandpa Simpson, aren't they?

I definitely want AXS on my bike. I don't have the disposable income to justify making that happen within the parameters I arbitrarily set for myself. But I'm not gonna irrationally shake my fist in the sky about it.

[eBAUMANN]

It really is as simple as this.

A lot of the comments here are a little Grandpa Simpson, aren't they?

I definitely want AXS on my bike. I don't have the disposable income to justify making that happen within the parameters I arbitrarily set for myself. But I'm not gonna irrationally shake my fist in the sky about it.

Id just like to remind everyone that my original question about the pricing of AXS was not as a luxury item but instead, if that price was somehow indicative of the expense incurred by SRAM in the design and manufacturing of these parts vs their wired counterparts.

WHY is a robo-rd 2.5x's the price of a wired one?
Does it really come down to the added expense of motor/BT/battery and R&D or is it just "because people will pay it" pricing?

It then morphed into "are these parts worth the $ to YOU" - which i still dont quite understand, considering the amount of AMAZING stuff I see here at rock bottom prices that STILL wont sell...it really makes me question the whole nature of us cyclists...we wax poetic about having "the legs" for this and that, "not buying upgrades, instead ride up grades" but then turn around and drop $10k on the "latest and greatest..." TO WHAT END? And just to be perfectly clear, Im including myself in this one.

[mtechnica]

Yeah I get it, etap is better than mechanical, you click the lever and it moves the chain from one cog to another, in a better way, surely... I know I sound like a curmudgeon but honestly if it doesn't make you go faster I don't understand how it functions better. Maybe it feels better yeah. And I don't buy the maintenance thing because a good mechanical group doesn't require anything besides occasionally changing the cables once every 10,000 miles or adjusting a barrel adjuster now and then. I guess if you're not into working on bikes that might seem like a chore. I'm kind of arguing just to argue but TBH I see things like this as another luxury item with no or little functional benefit (which is fine).

[mtechnica]

Id just like to remind everyone that my original question about the pricing of AXS was not as a luxury item but instead, if that price was somehow indicative of the expense incurred by SRAM in the design and manufacturing of these parts vs their wired counterparts.

WHY is a robo-rd 2.5x's the price of a wired one?
Does it really come down to the added expense of motor/BT/battery and R&D or is it just "because people will pay it" pricing?

I think the price of luxury goods are somewhat arbitrary and don't necessarily reflect the cost of the materials or manufacturing.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Id just like to remind everyone that my original question about the pricing of AXS was not as a luxury item but instead, if that price was somehow indicative of the expense incurred by SRAM in the design and manufacturing of these parts vs their wired counterparts.

WHY is a robo-rd 2.5x's the price of a wired one?
Does it really come down to the added expense of motor/BT/battery and R&D or is it just "because people will pay it" pricing?

I know. And it's an interesting question that I suspect no one on this forum is qualified to answer (though plenty have implied their engineering, manufacturing, and business management acumen with their replies). Your subsequent posts just smell of someone - like me - who wishes they were riding AXS, but for whom it doesn't make good financial sense and is then oddly justifying the ends by asserting it's all overpriced stuff that isn't complicated anyway.

Remember that scene from Swingers where Vince Vaughn gets asked to leave the diner?

[FlashUNC]

Id just like to remind everyone that my original question about the pricing of AXS was not as a luxury item but instead, if that price was somehow indicative of the expense incurred by SRAM in the design and manufacturing of these parts vs their wired counterparts.

WHY is a robo-rd 2.5x's the price of a wired one?
Does it really come down to the added expense of motor/BT/battery and R&D or is it just "because people will pay it" pricing?

It then morphed into "are these parts worth the $ to YOU" - which i still dont quite understand, considering the amount of AMAZING stuff I see here at rock bottom prices that STILL wont sell...it really makes me question the whole nature of us cyclists...we wax poetic about having "the legs" for this and that, "not buying upgrades, instead ride up grades" but then turn around and drop $10k on the "latest and greatest..." TO WHAT END? And just to be perfectly clear, Im including myself in this one.

Because it's the central hub for the entire system, for starters. It's what everything else is slaved to and does the thinking for the whole system. Whereas Shimano and Campy both jammed those bits into the central battery, SRAM crammed that into the RD.

The rest you can chalk up to ceramic pulley bearings and the new fluid vs mechanical clutch they're using in the RD. Along with all the sorted development costs and a bit of profit for the company so they can maybe make some money on the deal.

[eBAUMANN]

I know. And it's an interesting question that I suspect no one on this forum is qualified to answer (though plenty have implied their engineering, manufacturing, and business management acumen with their replies). Your subsequent posts just smell of someone - like me - who wishes they were riding AXS, but for whom it doesn't make good financial sense and is then oddly justifying the ends by asserting it's all overpriced stuff that isn't complicated anyway.

Remember that scene from Swingers where Vince Vaughn gets asked to leave the diner?

ha, yea, not this time, not that guy.

i would never, NEVER, put a wireless robot on a bike that sees anything other than pavement. the expense is one part, the ease of damaging the stuff (one rain storm, one tip over) is another...but fixing the stupid things (if needed) in the places i like to go on my "dirt" bikes is just totally out of the question. I strictly used wired EVERYTHING on those bikes for that reason.

on pavement, sure. i have eTap and di2 on 2 of my road bikes, its great, totally unnecessary, but great.

[eBAUMANN]

... the new fluid vs mechanical clutch they're using in the RD...

am i the only person who PREFERS the simplicity/serviceability of mechanical systems?

i dont know what a "fluid clutch" is, but its the complete opposite of a selling point to my ears.
the less fluid-based systems on a bike, the better.
#ATMO

[jtbadge]

am i the only person who PREFERS the simplicity/serviceability of mechanical systems?

i dont know what a "fluid clutch" is, but its the complete opposite of a selling point to my ears.
the less fluid-based systems on a bike, the better.
#ATMO

I like working on and using mechanical systems. Nice break from 'actual' work on computers all day.

[FlashUNC]

am i the only person who PREFERS the simplicity/serviceability of mechanical systems?

i dont know what a "fluid clutch" is, but its the complete opposite of a selling point to my ears.
the less fluid-based systems on a bike, the better.
#ATMO

Mechanical shifting is great. I love it.

But for the customization, installation and travel capabilities, nothing beats eTap as a total package imo.

Their fluid clutch is pretty cool though, and it's trick to see in action, because it really does work. Yeah, it's not user serviceable, but how serviceable is a mechanical clutch RD anyways?

[eBAUMANN]

Mechanical shifting is great. I love it.

But for the customization, installation and travel capabilities, nothing beats eTap as a total package imo.

Their fluid clutch is pretty cool though, and it's trick to see in action, because it really does work. Yeah, it's not user serviceable, but how serviceable is a mechanical clutch RD anyways?

A shimano clutch is adjustable. I had to tweak em all the time when i was (briefly) working as a mech for a rental company here in tucson. There is a nice little access cover held on with 3 screws, remove it and you can adjust the engagement of the clutch.

SRAM, not so much. As far as I know atleast.

[tomato coupe]

A shimano clutch is VERY adjustable...

SRAM, not so much. As far as I know atleast.
Four posts back, you didn't know what a SRAM fluid clutch was, but now you know it's not adjustable?

[AngryScientist]

But for the customization, installation and travel capabilities, nothing beats eTap as a total package imo.


pfff.

customization: i can run ANY RD or Cassette option i want with the set-up below.

installation: whaa hahaa, i'll build this bike before your app downloads from the app store.

travel: i guarantee i can get my travel bike operational in less time than someone with e-tappers any day of the week.

i give my assessment/comparo five bananas! :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JlOSnWBI_h8/W0pvBlzZnjI/AAAAAAAADCo/pOMek48EsvsJJzTgU5r2A4msUFijVdrTwCLcBGAs/s1200/IMG_0508.JPG

[eBAUMANN]

Four posts back, you didn't know what a fluid clutch was, but now you know it's not adjustable?

im not talking about fluid clutches.
ive never seen an AXS rd in real life, let alone worked on one, let alone cared enough to research the stupid things adjustability.
i hear "fluid" and i run in the opposite direction.
i would obviously not claim any sort of expertise or knowledge over something whose existence i learned of FROM THIS THREAD.

im talking about mechanical clutches, the ones I have worked on, the ones that represent the vast majority of clutch rd's in existence.

[StephenCL]

imo, sram's airea protocol alone puts it head and shoulders above shimano/campy.

if sram red with etap and hydro is 2500 then shimano and campy have more work to justify their price then sram does. all the sram bashing is lost on me.

In the early days of Force and Red, we all dealt with MAJOR reliability issues. I personally had multiple items replaced under warranty. In addition, all Far East manufacturing doesn’t always illicit a great deal of confidence.

Until recently, Chorus and up had all been made in Italy with the exception of some bits made in Romania.

I think SRAM is still recovering from its early struggles.

That being said, ETAP is the bomb. It’s real, it works and it is wicked light!!

[mtechnica]

But for the customization, installation and travel capabilities, nothing beats eTap as a total package imo.


This sounds like how new cars have 50 performance modes to pick from, which I personally want nothing to do with.

[benb]

Couple thoughts:

- They guess whatever guys on the Paceline will pay, and then they mark it up a bunch over that, and people still pay it

- They're doing the Halo product thing where they mark the top level up an even more ridiculous amount (Red) so a bunch of people buy Force at it's ridiculously marked up level. They know without Red to complain about a lot of guys wouldn't buy Force. Same thing with Rival. Red being ridiculous causes some people to buy Force who would have bought Rival. Force being ridiculous causes some people to buy Rival who would not have bought Rival at all and would have gone to Apex. Etc...

- When you think about the cost to engineer this don't be ignorant of the fact they could easily have outsourced a bunch of the engineering overseas as well to contract engineering firms. This happens all the time. Asians are not just good at manufacturing, they're way better at engineering wireless stuff & anything computerized than anyone in the bike industry is. This can save SRAM massive money cause the overseas contract engineers go away when the project is done, they never have equity or any of the other things skilled engineers demand. This means the product probably takes longer to get to a high quality level, but then that's consistent with a lot of this bike stuff as well. Groups these days seem to have way more issues when they come out than in the past.

It's hard to figure out which products have all their engineering outsourced but if you keep your ear to the ground you eventually hear stuff. I hadn't known this but all the early fitbit electronics were pretty much done by a contract engineering firm in Singapore for example. The founders had a gigantic prototype that sucked down massive battery, was way too big to ever wear, was in a wooden box, and had a broken wireless range. They sent the idea overseas and got back a thing barely bigger than a paperclip that sipped battery & had workable wireless range and build quality. They got their product without having to hire any engineers at all. This is straight from the founder's mouth.

I suspect a very large amount of engineering gets outsourced in the bike industry... what do you think "open mold" frames & wheels and such are? How come you don't see any real engineers if you get a tour at a bike HQ?

- We know a very large amount of the profit margin on all this stuff goes to high priced executives, marketing campaigns, paying for Pro teams, sponsored athletes & influencers, bro deals in shops all over the place, you name it. We like all that stuff so prices are going to be high.

[tomato coupe]

A lot of clouds are going to be hard of hearing by the time this thread ends ...

[maxim809]

Id just like to remind everyone that my original question about the pricing of AXS was not as a luxury item but instead, if that price was somehow indicative of the expense incurred by SRAM in the design and manufacturing of these parts vs their wired counterparts.


There are at most a handful of people in the world qualified to answer this, and they're going to be at some Director level or above working at SRAM specifically in the AXS department. It's in their interest to keep these numbers to themselves -- even if on the off chance they were flicking through this very thread right now.

The most you will get, at best, is speculation and opinions of varying levels of quality, thought, and walks of life.

[AngryScientist]

A lot of clouds are going to be hard of hearing by the time this thread ends ...

beats talking about corona!

[joosttx]

You don't have to replace the whole crankset.

I have two AXS bikes with power meters. I use Quarq Dzero power meters with wolf tooth chainrings. The chainrings are totally replaceable.

[choke]

I don't believe if you offered someone electronic or mechanical shifting anyone would choose mechanical shifting outside of specific applications (CX, adventure bikes, etc.) or if price was a factor.Your belief is wrong. I have no desire to own an electronic group and if someone gave me a set (any company) I'd put it up for sale without mounting it. I will never own an electronic group. Ever.

But I've removed perfectly functioning Ergos from bikes and replaced them with DT shifters.

And I prefer manual transmissions to autos.

And I like buttons on the dash instead of touch screens.

-------

To go back to the original post and the price, no way. But IMO the vast majority of bike stuff made today is overpriced. I can remember the first time that I saw a pair of wheels that cost $1000....I thought it was criminal. I still feel that way today.

[maxim809]

https://i.imgur.com/fzbLmQAl.jpg

[Bici-Sonora]

I take a philosophical approach. I like my bicycle riding experience to be simple, aesthetically pleasing, freeing, quiet, and safe. So how does eTap fit in:

Simplicity: I like that eTap doesn't have wires, and that you don't have to deal with cables and housing. But, I have to take off batteries and charge them? It's just one more thing you have to remember to do the night before; it's extra mental baggage. And on my human powered device I'm now having to burn a tiny tiny bit of coal just to go on a ride?

Aesthetically pleasing: I like that with eTap you could have a bike without any brazed-on cable stops. It could look almost as clean as a single speed. But, you do have those ugly bulbous batteries perched on your derailleurs.

Freeing: What if you were touring remotely? I think that would suck to have more batteries to worry about. How can I unplug if I have to plug in?

Quiet: The self-trimming FD does sound nice, but then again, my Dura Ace 9 speed downtube shifter trims a FD with ease and I kind of like what the consciousness of that little motion adds to my riding experience.

Safe: no advantage.

YMMV, considering that I mostly ride metal bicycles with rim brakes and externally routed cables.


am i the only person who PREFERS the simplicity/serviceability of mechanical systems?

i dont know what a "fluid clutch" is, but its the complete opposite of a selling point to my ears.
the less fluid-based systems on a bike, the better.
#ATMO

[mastaliu]

Can we talk about the fact that a shimano 105 rear derailleur also shifts perfectly every time, and you almost certainly spend less time dealing with it - replacing the cable once a year or something and spending 3 seconds adjusting a barrel adjuster now and then, than having to charge it and fuss with apps on your phone?

I just bought Ultegra r8000 groupset $689 . . it seems like such a bargain and so tough to beat on every level.

[jadedaid]

Your belief is wrong. I have no desire to own an electronic group and if someone gave me a set (any company) I'd put it up for sale without mounting it. I will never own an electronic group. Ever.

But I've removed perfectly functioning Ergos from bikes and replaced them with DT shifters.


I understand that, it's about the philosophy of what you prefer and there is a certain purity to an entirely mechanical bike that I can appreciate. There's a part of me that wants an Italian steel frame with a mechanical campy groupset..

As for DT shifters, savage :) I am very happy that those are thing of the past!

[jadedaid]

beats talking about corona!

Haha, this gave me a good laugh. Isn't that the truth!

There is some similarity to the futility of the discussion.... :D

[kppolich]

Id just like to remind everyone that my original question about the pricing of AXS was not as a luxury item but instead, if that price was somehow indicative of the expense incurred by SRAM in the design and manufacturing of these parts vs their wired counterparts.

WHY is a robo-rd 2.5x's the price of a wired one?
Does it really come down to the added expense of motor/BT/battery and R&D or is it just "because people will pay it" pricing?

It then morphed into "are these parts worth the $ to YOU" - which i still dont quite understand, considering the amount of AMAZING stuff I see here at rock bottom prices that STILL wont sell...it really makes me question the whole nature of us cyclists...we wax poetic about having "the legs" for this and that, "not buying upgrades, instead ride up grades" but then turn around and drop $10k on the "latest and greatest..." TO WHAT END? And just to be perfectly clear, Im including myself in this one.

Does the price justify the product development?

Yes.
Wireless protocol. Security, Design, Manufacturing, Labor, Patents, Mobile App Development, and Research & Development.

Any one of the area's posted above would probably be enough up front money to make a normal person cry. But this isn't a normal person, it's a company with market research and analysis constantly pointing to the next best thing. They can charge whatever they want, and they will...until people stop buying. Then they will cut costs, rebrand it as 'force' and sell it to the next person thinking they are getting a good deal.

Rinse, Wash, Repeat for any higher end product on the market.

[lavi]

Simplicity: I like that eTap doesn't have wires, and that you don't have to deal with cables and housing. But, I have to take off batteries and charge them? It's just one more thing you have to remember to do the night before; it's extra mental baggage. And on my human powered device I'm now having to burn a tiny tiny bit of coal just to go on a ride?



Unless a person is riding 10k miles/year, the batteries are probably charged 2-3 times per year. Or if you're anal, set a calendar reminder monthly. Does it take a little thought and effort (very little), sure. But then we still think to check cable tension, tire pressure, chain lube, "what's in my seat bag? I had a flat last ride"....so it's not like we just hop on and ride with zero prep no matter what the bike or bits are.

I am not typically an early adopter. I prefer to buy used if I can. However, I did snag eTap when if first came out. I have/had a number of bikes...so the eTap bike isn't ridden every day. Yet, I've still had the group for 4 years now. I have YET to change the coin batteries in the shifters. They still show "green" when I even bother to look. Pretty nifty I'd say.

[djg21]

Unless a person is riding 10k miles/year, the batteries are probably charged 2-3 times per year. Or if you're anal, set a calendar reminder monthly. Does it take a little thought and effort (very little), sure. But then we still think to check cable tension, tire pressure, chain lube, "what's in my seat bag? I had a flat last ride"....so it's not like we just hop on and ride with zero prep no matter what the bike or bits are.

I am not typically an early adopter. I prefer to buy used if I can. However, I did snag eTap when if first came out. I have/had a number of bikes...so the eTap bike isn't ridden every day. Yet, I've still had the group for 4 years now. I have YET to change the coin batteries in the shifters. They still show "green" when I even bother to look. Pretty nifty I'd say.

I asked how often I’ve run out of battery on my eTap (first gen) bike quite often. Never, and I can’t imagine it ever happening. I charge the things about once every two weeks, if that. I have a battery level indicator on my Garmin that I can check if I want, but never do. I bought an extra charger when I first got eTap for use while traveling. I keep it in my travel bag but never have needed to use it as most of my trips are under a week long. The eTap stuff Is so good. It’s super easy to set up, and requires little in the way of maintenance. The hardest part of the set up is figuring out where to position the blip shifters on your bars. The shifting is so incredibly intuitive. I was always a Shimano fan and had Dura Ace bikes. The eTap stuff made me a true believer. I’m currently building a 1x gravel bike, and I am definitely going with SRAM Force/Eagle AXS. I do find myself shifting more frequently when I use eTap. It’s not because I like the sound.

[benb]

Does the price justify the product development?

Yes.
Wireless protocol. Security, Design, Manufacturing, Labor, Patents, Mobile App Development, and Research & Development.

Any one of the area's posted above would probably be enough up front money to make a normal person cry. But this isn't a normal person, it's a company with market research and analysis constantly pointing to the next best thing. They can charge whatever they want, and they will...until people stop buying. Then they will cut costs, rebrand it as 'force' and sell it to the next person thinking they are getting a good deal.

Rinse, Wash, Repeat for any higher end product on the market.

Sorry..

A group of college kids could prototype a system like eTap as a class project.

Too many people are acting like this is space age technology.

With what is available off the shelf these days, 3D printers, open source micro controllers, tons of open source code, etc.. this was not a moon shot product.

It is expensive because cyclists will pay for it and because it's low volume and the mechanical bits are all custom.

There's likely 0 custom chips or electronics in it. SRAM couldn't pay for that. The micro controller in the head unit costs < $3 in bulk, it's an 8-bit ATMEL not that far off what goes in an Arduino we all play with. The wireless chips are similar, about $3 for each bit.. there is one in each separate bit of eTap gear.

There was likely a lot of testing and trial by error to get everything dialed in.

I am mostly in that philosophical group of being opposed to having to use the batteries.. but on a bike with no external cable routing eTap is really attractive & elegant in a way that Shimano Di2/Ui2 never could be.

[Toddykins]

Discussion of downtube shifters and 9speed groups in a thread on AXS is pretty comical - The relevant question is whether it is worth the delta to di2/eps.

Where I fall - Di2 user since first gen, incoming bike will have red axs.

[benb]

Discussion of downtube shifters and 9speed groups in a thread on AXS is pretty comical - The relevant question is whether it is worth the delta to di2/eps.

Where I fall - Di2 user since first gen, incoming bike will have red axs.

I don't think that's where the Delta is..

If someone is willing to use electronic shimano I don't see how they can argue against the wireless eTap.

It's really what is the benefit vs mechanical Ultegra/DA. I think the debate here is colored a lot by how comfortable the rider is maintaining their bike themself. If you're paying for the shop to do your work eTap/Di2/Ui2 looks good, might cost more but be fewer trips to the shop. If you're doing your own work yourself & have the time & skill you're looking at saving thousands with the mechanical group and probably getting a lighter bike.

[FlashUNC]

I don't think that's where the Delta is..

If someone is willing to use electronic shimano I don't see how they can argue against the wireless eTap.

It's really what is the benefit vs mechanical Ultegra/DA. I think the debate here is colored a lot by how comfortable the rider is maintaining their bike themself. If you're paying for the shop to do your work eTap/Di2/Ui2 looks good, might cost more but be fewer trips to the shop. If you're doing your own work yourself & have the time & skill you're looking at saving thousands with the mechanical group and probably getting a lighter bike.

And the benefit with current mechanical Dura Ace and Ultegra is you get really good at re-plumbing destroyed shift cables every couple months the levers eat like candy.

[saab2000]

And the benefit with current mechanical Dura Ace and Ultegra is you get really good at re-plumbing destroyed shift cables every couple months the levers eat like candy.

This has never been my experience. I’ve been on DA now for years and have yet to eat a cable. I know it happens but some of what I’ve seen has clearly been sloppy installation.

When done properly I don’t think the wear and tear is out of the ordinary. At least that has been my experience.

[Toddykins]

I don't think that's where the Delta is..

If someone is willing to use electronic shimano I don't see how they can argue against the wireless eTap.

It's really what is the benefit vs mechanical Ultegra/DA. I think the debate here is colored a lot by how comfortable the rider is maintaining their bike themself. If you're paying for the shop to do your work eTap/Di2/Ui2 looks good, might cost more but be fewer trips to the shop. If you're doing your own work yourself & have the time & skill you're looking at saving thousands with the mechanical group and probably getting a lighter bike.

To clarify - I meant the question is whether the upcharge is worth it from di2 to axs, not whether electronic groups are worth it in general. Comparing like to like.

[benb]

And the benefit with current mechanical Dura Ace and Ultegra is you get really good at re-plumbing destroyed shift cables every couple months the levers eat like candy.
Which generations are you talking about?

I have yet to try 11-speed other than test rides.

I think I've had 2 damaged STI shifters in the past 20 years, and I had a set of SRAM double-tap levers fail as well. This is actually not that good I think if I was to tally up how many sets of levers I've owned since I started riding.

I've never had a cable get eaten.

It always sucks. It's going to suck even more if any eTap/Di2 parts break.

Are people forgetting you can still damage any of this stuff in a crash and it won't be covered? That's still by far your most likely way you break any of this stuff, regardless of what your component choices are. Cheaper stuff is still cheaper to replace if you break it.

[Heisenberg]

To clarify - I meant the question is whether the upcharge is worth it from di2 to axs, not whether electronic groups are worth it in general. Comparing like to like.

upcharge? retail on both is about the same. SRAM doesn't **** their aftermarket partners like Shimano does, that's the only difference. are electro groups worth it vs. mechanical? well, they're less maintenance/more reliable. they shift better. but they're expensive. shimano/campy are also quite complicated (wheee now your bike has a wiring harness). and you have batteries.

this thread makes my head hurt. a lot of folks here know a lot about nothing. if your zero-sum game is all about value, go get a 105 or rival kit, stfu, and ride your bike until the world ends (soon).

[bfd]

Which generations are you talking about?

I have yet to try 11-speed other than test rides.

I think I've had 2 damaged STI shifters in the past 20 years, and I had a set of SRAM double-tap levers fail as well. This is actually not that good I think if I was to tally up how many sets of levers I've owned since I started riding.

I've never had a cable get eaten.

It always sucks. It's going to suck even more if any eTap/Di2 parts break.

Are people forgetting you can still damage any of this stuff in a crash and it won't be covered? That's still by far your most likely way you break any of this stuff, regardless of what your component choices are. Cheaper stuff is still cheaper to replace if you break it.

This is true. I know a guy who had 1st gen DA 9070(?) di2 10 speed on his bike. When RD failed, he found out Shimano abandoned the group and no spare parts were available. His RD on eBay was going for like $600+! He ended up getting a new bike with I think Sram Red mechanical. Of course, YMMV!

Good Luck!

[FlashUNC]

Which generations are you talking about?

I have yet to try 11-speed other than test rides.

I think I've had 2 damaged STI shifters in the past 20 years, and I had a set of SRAM double-tap levers fail as well. This is actually not that good I think if I was to tally up how many sets of levers I've owned since I started riding.

I've never had a cable get eaten.

It always sucks. It's going to suck even more if any eTap/Di2 parts break.

Are people forgetting you can still damage any of this stuff in a crash and it won't be covered? That's still by far your most likely way you break any of this stuff, regardless of what your component choices are. Cheaper stuff is still cheaper to replace if you break it.

Pretty much everything from 7900 on, but 9000 and 9100 especially.

There's many, many threads about it all across the internet, there's an Instagram page and hashtag dedicated just to this and their snapped cranks, and even in official puffery reviews of the groupsets, this cable issue comes up. To the point Shimano provides revised guidance for their cable installs and revised their cable coating to try to keep it from happening.

[tomato coupe]

Sorry.. A group of college kids could prototype a system like eTap as a class project...
Again, if it's so easy to do, why aren't other companies (or college students) jumping into the market and under cutting SRAM on pricing?

[mtechnica]

Pretty much everything from 7900 on, but 9000 and 9100 especially.

There's many, many threads about it all across the internet, there's an Instagram page and hashtag dedicated just to this and their snapped cranks, and even in official puffery reviews of the groupsets, this cable issue comes up. To the point Shimano provides revised guidance for their cable installs and revised their cable coating to try to keep it from happening.

I’ve heard of this happening too but it hasn’t happened to me, although I don’t have dura ace.

[thirdgenbird]

upcharge? retail on both is about the same. SRAM doesn't **** their aftermarket partners like Shimano does, that's the only difference. are electro groups worth it vs. mechanical? well, they're less maintenance/more reliable. they shift better. but they're expensive. shimano/campy are also quite complicated (wheee now your bike has a wiring harness). and you have batteries.

this thread makes my head hurt. a lot of folks here know a lot about nothing. if your zero-sum game is all about value, go get a 105 or rival kit, stfu, and ride your bike until the world ends (soon).

Do you have data?

There is an 8 page thread over on weight weenies discussing e-tap derailleur failures. Several users with multiple failures. I recall shimano having a number of failures on sub-105 front derailleurs a number of years ago, but I don’t remember seeing anything else with that type of (unofficial) failure rate.

[lavi]

Are people forgetting you can still damage any of this stuff in a crash and it won't be covered?

Yes, crashes happen. I didn't race long (~10 years) but never went down in a RR. Cross and Mtb, for sure a crash fest. However, have never broken anything. I was hit by a car commuting a while back. Just road rash on me and the bike (thankfully). Nothing broken.

I certainly have seen broken things....however, it seems like a very rare occasion to break something.

That said, if I were still racing, I would not put stuff on my bike over mid-grade...and not electric. This is inclusive of being forunate enough to have a GREAT (women's new cx us nat champ sponsored shop) shop sponsorship for hookups on gear and shop work. Shout out to SELLWOOD BIKES!!!:banana:

If I were lining up, I'd grab a Giant TCR (sponsored team bike with very attractive pricing) something with alloy wheels and 105...maybe ultegra.

This is long, but I'd guess that anyone racing this stuff is well aware of the risks/consequences and potential costs.

[lavi]

upcharge? retail on both is about the same. SRAM doesn't **** their aftermarket partners like Shimano does, that's the only difference. are electro groups worth it vs. mechanical? well, they're less maintenance/more reliable. they shift better. but they're expensive. shimano/campy are also quite complicated (wheee now your bike has a wiring harness). and you have batteries.

this thread makes my head hurt. a lot of folks here know a lot about nothing. if your zero-sum game is all about value, go get a 105 or rival kit, stfu, and ride your bike until the world ends (soon).

Bro. Let's do a takeover and you just post for me. +100

[mtechnica]

If I were lining up, I'd grab a Giant TCR (sponsored team bike with very attractive pricing) something with alloy wheels and 105...maybe ultegra.

This is long, but I'd guess that anyone racing this stuff is well aware of the risks/consequences and potential costs.

This is the hilarious part to me. On one hand you have people in this thread saying certain posters don’t know anything and don’t know what they’re talking about, that it “just works better”. On the other hand everyone all but admits there’s no measurable difference in speed or actual performance between 105 and etap.

Just admit that etap is cool but it’s a luxury item and it doesn’t make you faster (actually function better in real terms). Some people feel the need to justify their expenditures I guess.

And for the record I’m not a hater, I’m sure etap is great but I don’t think the cost is objectively justifiable.

[maxim809]

This is the hilarious part to me. On one hand you have people in this thread saying certain posters don’t know anything and don’t know what they’re talking about, that it “just works better”. On the other hand everyone all but admits there’s no measurable difference in speed or actual performance between 105 and etap.

Just admit that etap is cool but it’s a luxury item and it doesn’t make you faster (actually function better in real terms). Some people feel the need to justify their expenditures I guess.

And for the record I’m not a hater, I’m sure etap is great but I don’t think the cost is objectively justifiable.

So true. It goes to show:

- Opinions will stretch as wide as the number of people involved.
- Facts are facts.
- Opinions of the facts are again opinions.

The indisputable fact that's been discussed in this thread thus far is the price of group sets. Collectively we covered a lot of opinions. Throw more people in and we can keep expanding, in diminishing ways -- or cover the same circles we already discussed.

[R3awak3n]

Do you have data?

There is an 8 page thread over on weight weenies discussing e-tap derailleur failures. Several users with multiple failures. I recall shimano having a number of failures on sub-105 front derailleurs a number of years ago, but I don’t remember seeing anything else with that type of (unofficial) failure rate.

There will always be some failures and some problems. I remember the campy 11 RD debable thing that some were not shifting so good. Also had some pages on weight weenies.

I think etap has been hella reliable or there would be a lot more out there on it. I think there were some problems with front derailleurs and tbh I think some were user error. The stuff just works really good and is pretty bullet proof all things considered. I have had 2 and they were flawless, still have one and keeps working just great.



Heisenberg dude came in hot but he has a lot of good points. Sram came in and schooled the other 2 companies on how to make a new groupset. Campy is stuck in campy land, EPS is dated and still costs a crap load of money. Shimano is shimano, too big to care, they can just keep putting out the same crap and people will buy it. Sram was the only company that somewhat innovated the stuff. I am also not surprised they are not doing 12 speed mech, they rather invest on the e stuff which has done them well. I think they know if they release mech stuff people ill probably go and buy campy or boring shimano.

[R3awak3n]

This is the hilarious part to me. On one hand you have people in this thread saying certain posters don’t know anything and don’t know what they’re talking about, that it “just works better”. On the other hand everyone all but admits there’s no measurable difference in speed or actual performance between 105 and etap.

Just admit that etap is cool but it’s a luxury item and it doesn’t make you faster (actually function better in real terms). Some people feel the need to justify their expenditures I guess.

And for the record I’m not a hater, I’m sure etap is great but I don’t think the cost is objectively justifiable.


you are absolutely right, etap is a luxury item. Same with campy R/SR and DA. However, etap and di2 and eps do function better than mech. WIll it make you faster? nope but do they throw more consistent and faster shifts? yes they do. Now is it worth $1000 more for the groupset? it is all up to ones wallet. For the record I love mechanical and one of my favorite groups is chorus 11 but etap is excellent.

[vincenz]

Tell SRAM to use better materials and make their groups actually enjoyable to look at and I would consider etap. Until then...no thanks, don’t sell me electronics wrapped in low grade plastic for that money. I see zero performance or weight advantage in any case, even disregarding aesthetics. Same goes for wired electronic groups. People who complain about mechanical performance need to get their bikes tuned...

[FlashUNC]

This is the hilarious part to me. On one hand you have people in this thread saying certain posters don’t know anything and don’t know what they’re talking about, that it “just works better”. On the other hand everyone all but admits there’s no measurable difference in speed or actual performance between 105 and etap.

Just admit that etap is cool but it’s a luxury item and it doesn’t make you faster (actually function better in real terms). Some people feel the need to justify their expenditures I guess.

And for the record I’m not a hater, I’m sure etap is great but I don’t think the cost is objectively justifiable.

Sure it is. There's just folks here who don't subjectively think what eTap offers for that price is worth it.

Is it objectively justifiable? Of course. You spend X to produce it, Y for a margin, and Z is the price.

Anything else is just, well, your views on it. But then people throw around objective when they just want cover for their opinion.

And if we're getting into whether it makes you faster or not, Fausto Coppi won the 1952 Giro with an average speed north of 32km/hr using some 5 speed freewheel nonsense on a frame made of pipe tubing. By that logic everyone should just buy stuff we rode seven decades ago because, well, none of it actually makes any of us fat MAMILs any faster right?

[R3awak3n]

Tell SRAM to use better materials and make their groups actually enjoyable to look at and I would consider etap. Until then...no thanks, don’t sell me electronics wrapped in low grade plastic for that money. I see zero performance or weight advantage. Same goes for wired electronic groups. People who complain about mechanical performance need to get their bikes tuned...

actually. OG etap is very good looking. Some chrome accents, materials are VERY nice as well. I admit the new AXS stuff is a bit less good looking but not worst than campy 12 and on par with DA/

[choke]

And if we're getting into whether it makes you faster or not, Fausto Coppi won the 1952 Giro with an average speed north of 32km/hr using some 5 speed freewheel nonsense on a frame made of pipe tubing. By that logic everyone should just buy stuff we rode seven decades ago because, well, none of it actually makes any of us fat MAMILs any faster right?
It appears that it doesn't.

The 1952 Giro was 3964km long and the winning time was 114h 36' 43". That's an average speed of 34.59km/hr.

The 2019 Giro was 3547km long and the winning time was 90h 01 '47". That's an average speed of 39.40 km/hr.

So with carbon frames, more gears, better rolling tires, better nutrition, advanced training techniques, etc. etc. there was a less than 5 km/hr improvement in 67 years....on a course that was 417 km shorter.

[mtechnica]

Sure it is. There's just folks here who don't subjectively think what eTap offers for that price is worth it.

Is it objectively justifiable? Of course. You spend X to produce it, Y for a margin, and Z is the price.

Anything else is just, well, your views on it. But then people throw around objective when they just want cover for their opinion.

And if we're getting into whether it makes you faster or not, Fausto Coppi won the 1952 Giro with an average speed north of 32km/hr using some 5 speed freewheel nonsense on a frame made of pipe tubing. By that logic everyone should just buy stuff we rode seven decades ago because, well, none of it actually makes any of us fat MAMILs any faster right?

I think you’re taking a bit of an extreme side of the argument even though you do make a valid point. I’m not accusing anyone of being a mamil or unfit or anything like that. That said can we all accept the fact that pretty much every modern road group will move the chain across your cogs and chainrings? Assuming equal gear ratios I don’t believe there is a measurable difference in speed or efficiency. Maybe there’s a weight difference between some of them but I’m also convinced the difference there is mostly theoretical. IMO the group is probably the least important part of the bike, well behind the frame, wheels, or contact points.

[tomato coupe]

So with carbon frames, more gears, better rolling tires, better nutrition, advanced training techniques, etc. etc. there was a less than 5 km/hr improvement in 67 years...

5 km/hr? That's a huge difference. (That's 3 mph for us Yanks.)

[crankles]

well, to be fair, you should be comparing the 1200 S to that tarmac. Top of the line vs top of the line. $17,995 to $11,000 ;-)

but either way, it's still kinda messed up...



yes, i think the price of top end components is out of control, as well as top end frames.

it's not just that the price of top end kit is keeping pace with other market stuff either.


The sticker price of a ducati monster 797 is $9,295.

The price of an s-works AXS tarmac is $11,000.

that's messed up.

[Heisenberg]

Heisenberg dude came in hot but he has a lot of good points. Sram came in and schooled the other 2 companies on how to make a new groupset. Campy is stuck in campy land, EPS is dated and still costs a crap load of money. Shimano is shimano, too big to care, they can just keep putting out the same crap and people will buy it. Sram was the only company that somewhat innovated the stuff. I am also not surprised they are not doing 12 speed mech, they rather invest on the e stuff which has done them well. I think they know if they release mech stuff people ill probably go and buy campy or boring shimano.

it's just a stupid ****ing premise that "top end groupsets are too expensive". no, they're not. everything past 105 and rival follows the logic of diminishing returns. those more-premium products might work a bit smoother, spin a tiny bit faster, and have a bunch more exotic materials packed in, but at the end of the day, they get the job just the same because guess what? pretty much everything in performance cycling is a LUXURY GOOD: the very segment of the market that is defined by diminishing returns. that return on investment being a few grams here. some carbon there. some bluetooth wizardry in the air. but happily, those halo products with (aforementioned) skinny margins do the R&D heavy lifting that make Tiagra and Apex as good as they are today.

so please - as someone regrettably in the bike industry - know that what SRAM pulled off was a technical goddamned rabbit from their collective tophat. ****ting on them (or anyone) for making a badass halo product for your two-wheeled playthings that costs a lot to develop, make, sell, and buy is just a bad look. go get 105 if this is that important to you. otherwise - and i mean this sincerely - stop it. very few folks in the bike industry make decent money.

you wanna know what's too expensive? american healthcare.

[William]

it's just a stupid ****ing premise that "top end groupsets are too expensive". no, they're not. everything past 105 and rival follows the logic of diminishing returns. those more-premium products might work a bit smoother, spin a tiny bit faster, and have a bunch more exotic materials packed in, but at the end of the day, they get the job just the same because guess what? pretty much everything in performance cycling is a LUXURY GOOD: the very segment of the market that is defined by diminishing returns. that return on investment being a few grams here. some carbon there. some bluetooth wizardry in the air. but happily, those halo products with (aforementioned) skinny margins do the R&D heavy lifting that make Tiagra and Apex as good as they are today.

so please - as someone regrettably in the bike industry - know that what SRAM pulled off was a technical goddamned rabbit from their collective tophat. ****ting on them (or anyone) for making a badass halo product for your two-wheeled playthings that costs a lot to develop, make, sell, and buy is just a bad look. go get 105 if this is that important to you.

you wanna know what's too expensive? american healthcare.




Bike parts to healthcare? Yeah, let's not take it there....






W.

[nmrt]

I have begun to think that american healthcare is also...wait for it....
a luxury good!

it's just a stupid ****ing premise that "top end groupsets are too expensive". no, they're not. everything past 105 and rival follows the logic of diminishing returns. those more-premium products might work a bit smoother, spin a tiny bit faster, and have a bunch more exotic materials packed in, but at the end of the day, they get the job just the same because guess what? pretty much everything in performance cycling is a LUXURY GOOD: the very segment of the market that is defined by diminishing returns. that return on investment being a few grams here. some carbon there. some bluetooth wizardry in the air. but happily, those halo products with (aforementioned) skinny margins do the R&D heavy lifting that make Tiagra and Apex as good as they are today.

so please - as someone regrettably in the bike industry - know that what SRAM pulled off was a technical goddamned rabbit from their collective tophat. ****ting on them (or anyone) for making a badass halo product for your two-wheeled playthings that costs a lot to develop, make, sell, and buy is just a bad look. go get 105 if this is that important to you. otherwise - and i mean this sincerely - stop it. very few folks in the bike industry make decent money.

you wanna know what's too expensive? american healthcare.

[Dave]

If red and force axs are your only products, it seems risky. Shimano got the vast majority of the OEM groups sales, on bikes priced below the force axs level. Does SRAM even offer any mechanical or lower level components anymore?

There's a huge difference between the price level of axs on OEM bikes and the price charged by sellers of the component groups alone.

[William]

I have begun to think that american healthcare is also...wait for it....
a luxury good!

I'll give you the bennefit of the doubt that you didn't spot the warning above. Please keep it on topic.






W.

[jtbadge]

Sure, but whatever that "hangman's noose" thing was is fine? Yikes.

[AngryScientist]

meanwhile, i rode my bike and adventured outdoors all day! beautiful, hot day here in NJ land.

this thread really got a little heated. :banana::banana:


a lot of folks here know a lot about nothing. if your zero-sum game is all about value, go get a 105 or rival kit, stfu, and ride your bike until the world ends (soon).

do you talk to people like this in real life? it's pretty rude, i think.



so please - as someone regrettably in the bike industry - know that what SRAM pulled off was a technical goddamned rabbit from their collective tophat. ****ting on them (or anyone) for making a badass halo product for your two-wheeled playthings that costs a lot to develop, make, sell, and buy is just a bad look. go get 105 if this is that important to you. otherwise - and i mean this sincerely - stop it. very few folks in the bike industry make decent money.



haha, heisenberg says "stop it".

talking trash about component groups is literally the oldest topic on cycling forums.

also, i guess based on your postings, your style is to make your posts look more important/assertive by using ***'d out vulgar language - personally, i think that's a bad look.

maybe relax a bit. we're just talking about bike parts here.

[thirdgenbird]

There will always be some failures and some problems. I remember the campy 11 RD debable thing that some were not shifting so good. Also had some pages on weight weenies.

I think etap has been hella reliable or there would be a lot more out there on it. I think there were some problems with front derailleurs and tbh I think some were user error. The stuff just works really good and is pretty bullet proof all things considered. I have had 2 and they were flawless, still have one and keeps working just great.

I’m not saying etap is a bad product, I just find it interesting that people are touting it as the most reliable way to move a chain when other users are reporting having their rear derailleurs replaced under warranty 2-4 times. Sram seems to have stepped up their game in a big way, but I would need to see some data before I believe it is more reliable than traditional systems. Less maintenance makes sense.

If I was going electronic, I probably wouldn’t consider anything other than etap right now and I am Campagnolo through and through. I’ve gone as far as pricing out 11 speed etap shifty bits with bora 35 wheels, a 5-arm record crank, potenza cassette, Campag chain, and ee brakes. I think it would make for a pretty killer setup.

I’ve ultimately decided to be selective about electronic adoption. I really like my GTI, EM1.2, and my iPhone but my MG is still carbureted, my watches don’t have batteries, and neither does my groupset.

[mcteague]

I'll give you the bennefit of the doubt that you didn't spot the warning above. Please keep it on topic.






W.

Here you go.

Tim

[joosttx]

axs makes it really easy to shift your bike when riding no handed. Not sure if this advantage has been discussed.

[William]

Here you go.

Tim

I used take out womp rats at the town line all day long at Begger's Canyon back in the day with my 105 mechanical...:);)






W.

[tomato coupe]

talking trash about component groups is literally the oldest topic on cycling forums.

I thought the oldest topic was prostitution.

[ryker]

Depends how you look at value. When parts pass through the supply chain the price often doubles (e.g. mfg->distro, distro->retailer). So the difference between manufacturing cost and purchase price is often widest at the high end. But do distributors add more value shipping an AXS group than a Tiagra group? Do retailers? They would have you think so and maybe they do in some scenarios.

[mtechnica]

Bike parts to healthcare? Yeah, let's not take it there....






W.

I’ve officially trolled too hard, I’m sorry. :banana:

[FlashUNC]

If red and force axs are your only products, it seems risky. Shimano got the vast majority of the OEM groups sales, on bikes priced below the force axs level. Does SRAM even offer any mechanical or lower level components anymore?

There's a huge difference between the price level of axs on OEM bikes and the price charged by sellers of the component groups alone.

Seems a pretty sensible strategy from my viewpoint. They're never going to beat Shimano at the volume mechanical end of the market. But they are eating their lunch in the electronic/halo bike end of things. It's bananas to think Giant's top end spec bike these days even offers the option of SRAM AXS or Di2, given how tightly intertwined Shimano and Giant are.

eTap absolutely caught Shimano flat footed with a real, viable wireless system. If you're interested in electronic shifting at all, there's really no reason to use Di2 or EPS other than ergonomics.

[AngryScientist]

eTap absolutely caught Shimano flat footed with a real, viable wireless system. If you're interested in electronic shifting at all, there's really no reason to use Di2 or EPS other than ergonomics.

to be honest, this actually is the most surprising part to me. i dont know if shimano is just being stubborn holding the line or what, but etap has been out for a long minute now, and it really surprises me that shimano did not respond quickly with a good wireless DA group.

i agree with your assessment, if i were in the market for an electric group, i'm not messing with janky wires or junction boxes, and i'm certainly not having a frame drilled for janky wires and junction boxes.

campy is an old boat, and it's not shocking that it will take them a while to shift momentum, but shimano has wasted much more time than i would have expected getting a top end wireless group to market.

if we want to talk about busch league

https://cyclepathpdx.com/wp-uploads/2013/11/Pinarello-Dogma-65.1-Think-2-Enve-Stem-And-Di2-Junction-Box.jpg

[Mr B]

I don’t own any electronic groups, but in defence of Di2:
- Nobody I know who runs it has bitched about it. Ever.
- Some friends held an impromptu spin-off on a Wahoo Kickr at a shop one night and were in need of a rim-brake road bike with good old QRs. The only compatible bike in the room was an old Team Sky Pinarello Dogma with 10-speed Di2 (replete with camcorder-size battery on the DT) that had been hanging on the wall for over four years. Got it down, hooked it up, and it shifted all night. Literally the Nokia 6310i of groupsets.

[R3awak3n]

to be honest, this actually is the most surprising part to me. i dont know if shimano is just being stubborn holding the line or what, but etap has been out for a long minute now, and it really surprises me that shimano did not respond quickly with a good wireless DA group.

i agree with your assessment, if i were in the market for an electric group, i'm not messing with janky wires or junction boxes, and i'm certainly not having a frame drilled for janky wires and junction boxes.

campy is an old boat, and it's not shocking that it will take them a while to shift momentum, but shimano has wasted much more time than i would have expected getting a top end wireless group to market.

if we want to talk about busch league

https://cyclepathpdx.com/wp-uploads/2013/11/Pinarello-Dogma-65.1-Think-2-Enve-Stem-And-Di2-Junction-Box.jpg




surprised this was ever a thing. something hanging of your stem by an elastic band and charging thousands of dollars for it lol. At least now it hides as a bar end, still janky but much better. Not really surprised shimano has not come out with a wireless group. They like to over test their stuff, why its bullet proof stuff (just like Mr B mentioned above), they also still selling a ton of di2 stuff and not really pressed to come up with wireless, people like di2 and it does fine.

I mean shimano just released grx as 11 speed, they control the market, they don't have to race to wireless or 12 speed, people will still buy their stuff, OEMs will still come with shimano. I bet when shimano comes out with it it will be excellent (and boring :)). As for campy, oh boy, they really need something new and exciting.

[lavi]

eTap absolutely caught Shimano flat footed with a real, viable wireless system. If you're interested in electronic shifting at all, there's really no reason to use Di2 or EPS other than ergonomics.

Um. Mic drop.

This is the start and stop for me. All those wires and juction boxes. Nope. And I have GRX Di2 :crap::crap::crap:(which I only tolerate for the shifter ergos. I've also done the coaxing to get it as close as possible to the eTap shift logic).

If anyone wants to do some sort of equitable trade: my GRX Di2 for good old eTap. I'm all ears.

[Dave]

The reason for others not persuing wireless has said to be patents on the technology, held by SRAM. Usually, royalties can be paid to use other's patented technology. Whether that's financially feasible is another question

At half the price, I'm happy with Chorus 12. SRAM's 10-33 sprocket spacing isn't the best. I'd need a 44/31 to match my current 48/32 and 11-34.

[oldpotatoe]

Seems a pretty sensible strategy from my viewpoint. They're never going to beat Shimano at the volume mechanical end of the market. But they are eating their lunch in the electronic/halo bike end of things. It's bananas to think Giant's top end spec bike these days even offers the option of SRAM AXS or Di2, given how tightly intertwined Shimano and Giant are.

eTap absolutely caught Shimano flat footed with a real, viable wireless system. If you're interested in electronic shifting at all, there's really no reason to use Di2 or EPS other than ergonomics.

Well, if you don't/didn't build the bike, there's no reason to get etap..since the big advantage, and I'll grant you that, is setup/installation with etap..remove that and I think all 3 electronic groups have goods and 'others'..
Personally, and this is me. I prefer the tactile feedback of EPS(it clicks), like the one shifter/one function item/feature. Dislike the vague and small shifter 'features' of Di2 and really think etap, both shifters together to get the chain to shift and RH for higher gear and LH for lower gear, is not really 'intuitive' at all, TO ME..so don't get yer nighty in a knot..TO ME.

Plus, 4 batteries..and no way to charge both batteries at the same time with etap(have they made a 2 battery charger yet?)

I think there is a real benefit to mirror mechanical 'function' to electronic..and only Campag does that.

IMHO, ATMO, YMMV, WHOGAS..and all that.

[cribbit]

Wireless brakes when

[weiwentg]

Well, if you don't/didn't build the bike, there's no reason to get etap..since the big advantage, and I'll grant you that, is setup/installation with etap..remove that and I think all 3 electronic groups have goods and 'others'..
Personally, and this is me. I prefer the tactile feedback of EPS(it clicks), like the one shifter/one function item/feature. Dislike the vague and small shifter 'features' of Di2 and really think etap, both shifters together to get the chain to shift and RH for higher gear and LH for lower gear, is not really 'intuitive' at all, TO ME..so don't get yer nighty in a knot..TO ME.

Plus, 4 batteries..and no way to charge both batteries at the same time with etap(have they made a 2 battery charger yet?)

I think there is a real benefit to mirror mechanical 'function' to electronic..and only Campag does that.

IMHO, ATMO, YMMV, WHOGAS..and all that.

One other nice thing with EPS and Di2 seems to be that you can afford to pay a lot less attention to keeping the battery charged. The systems draw less power than SRAM, and the batteries are bigger. Also, if that matters to you, you probably put the main battery through fewer charge/discharge cycles this way, so they could last longer than the SRAM batteries.

That said, I could definitely get behind wireless. If all systems went wireless, that’s a few less holes to drill in the frames. Easier to set up, I’d presume. Cleaner front end for sure.

[Cantdog]

Bike parts to healthcare? Yeah, let's not take it there....






W.


I justified my AXS purchase as if I’m going to be seeing folks with covid every week in the hospital, then I deserve a wireless mullet drivetrain on my gravel bike. Connection made!

[54ny77]

As Yoda once said, "buy it, or do not, there is also mechanical."

https://heavyeddyrides.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/ride-you-must2.jpg?w=684&h=504

:bike:

[NHAero]

I think this is a whole topic unto itself. My inclination (having never ridden an electronic-equipped bike, or SRAM road at all) is to agree with you. But I don't know - if a new rider is faced with Di2, EPS, or eTap, which is the most intuitive?

One of these post-COVID days I gotta rent some of these bikes and try this equipment so my own cloud yelling is more informed. But I'm keeping an open mind until then. As I've already revealed here, I have some issues switching back and forth between mech Campy and Shimano, so I think that for most of the market (not PLers), it matters much less, because they don't have so many bikes as us. I ride with a group of MTBers (pre-COVID) every Sunday, and almost every rider only has one bike, and if they have more, it's because they didn't get rid of the old one - they're not switching. Same is true with a small group of older road riders who I occasionally ride with in the warmer weather - if they have multiple bikes, it's because they still have the old one(s). So if they get a new bike with a different shift pattern, after a couple of rides that's the new normal and they're done adapting.


snip
Really think etap, both shifters together to get the chain to shift and RH for higher gear and LH for lower gear, is not really 'intuitive' at all, TO ME..so don't get yer nighty in a knot..TO ME.

I think there is a real benefit to mirror mechanical 'function' to electronic..and only Campag does that.

IMHO, ATMO, YMMV, WHOGAS..and all that.

[bob heinatz]

I only read this first two pages but what in the modern world hasn't gotten expensive? Ok gas for now has come down in price. I have used only mechanical groups and as long as there available that what I will ride. My current bike has Dura Ace 9100 and rim brakes. What's not to like? It works fabulous.

[saab2000]

Seems a pretty sensible strategy from my viewpoint. They're never going to beat Shimano at the volume mechanical end of the market. But they are eating their lunch in the electronic/halo bike end of things. It's bananas to think Giant's top end spec bike these days even offers the option of SRAM AXS or Di2, given how tightly intertwined Shimano and Giant are.

eTap absolutely caught Shimano flat footed with a real, viable wireless system. If you're interested in electronic shifting at all, there's really no reason to use Di2 or EPS other than ergonomics.

I’m inclined to agree with this. I have a GRX Di2 groupset and the setup was a total disaster. I still can’t get it to connect to the app and the LBS that did some warranty stuff for me and got it running didn’t know much about the app either.

When I was told that I needed to use a Windows computer to set it up it soured me to a degree I find hard to describe. I don’t own one and I’m not going to ask around for this. I’m on another ecosystem.

Functionally it’s great. The setup and wiring were a mess, to put it lightly.

For mechanical I’d say Campagnolo or Shimano and as mentioned, I find no fault with lower level 105 mechanical. But it does seem to me that these two brands have some catching up o do WRT electronic groups.

[marciero]

I still can’t get it to connect to the app and the LBS that did some warranty stuff for me and got it running didn’t know much about the app either.

When I was told that I needed to use a Windows computer to set it up it soured me to a degree I find hard to describe. I don’t own one and I’m not going to ask around for this. I’m on another ecosystem.

...

That is laughable. So this is the nonsense I'm missing out on by sticking with mechanical. I will say that if I ever do go electronic (very unlikely unless there is a technological leap in battery technology) I would definitely skip right over to a wireless system.

[Saxon]

I'm still waiting for this group to fail before I upgrade... I'm guessing a new group will be 20K by that time.

[93KgBike]

Seems a pretty sensible strategy from my viewpoint. They're never going to beat Shimano at the volume mechanical end of the market. But they are eating their lunch in the electronic/halo bike end of things. It's bananas to think Giant's top end spec bike these days even offers the option of SRAM AXS or Di2, given how tightly intertwined Shimano and Giant are.

eTap absolutely caught Shimano flat footed with a real, viable wireless system. If you're interested in electronic shifting at all, there's really no reason to use Di2 or EPS other than ergonomics.

Yeah, this really says it all.

[tomato coupe]

Yeah, this really says it all.
Yes, and it's nice to be able to read it from across the room.

[bfd]

That is laughable. So this is the nonsense I'm missing out on by sticking with mechanical. I will say that if I ever do go electronic (very unlikely unless there is a technological leap in battery technology) I would definitely skip right over to a wireless system.

If you really want “wireless,” what about wireless brakes?! Free yourself of all those cables! You all know it’s coming...think of it, your bike will look like a track bike but with gears! Lol

[William]

I'm waiting for the wireless electronic kickstand for the coffee shop stops.:banana:







W.

[thirdgenbird]

So are we headed to a world where road components break down like this:

SRAM’s focus is squarely on mid to high-end electronic groups. Mechanical only exists at the entry level for high-volume OEM application.

Campagnolo focuses on being the best option for mid to high-end mechanical groups. Electronic remains a single option at the high end primarily for sponsorship and marketing.

Shimano offers a full line of both electronic and mechanical that lag a bit in innovation but remain the dependable and often default option.

Basically every market is a two horse race where Campagnolo and sram don’t really compete. Yes, I realize I left out Rotor, FSA, Microshift, Sunrace and Sensah.

Edit:
Maybe this is my bias shining through. If I were going mechanical, it would be Campagnolo. If I were going electronic, it would be sram. If I were helping a family member or neighbor get their first “nice” bicycle, it would be shimano.

[lavi]

Yes, and it's nice to be able to read it from across the room.

lol :beer"

I kinda liked it though.

[kytyree]

I still can’t get it to connect to the app and the LBS that did some warranty stuff for me and got it running didn’t know much about the app either.

When I was told that I needed to use a Windows computer to set it up it soured me to a degree I find hard to describe. I don’t own one and I’m not going to ask around for this. I’m on another ecosystem.


saab2000, a way you may be able to solve both or either of these problems is to delete the app from your phone, and have your phone forget the WU111 (the Di2 bluetooth) in your phone's bluetooth settings. Then you just start all over like it was new, though if you set a new PIN you will likely need to use that.

I agree the app leaves a lot to be desired, but using this I've been able to get through the firmware updates and setup of two Di2 groups using my iPhone. For whatever reason it seems the first attempt with the app doesn't end well, or at least it hasn't for me. Fortunately I haven't really needed the app for anything beyond the initial stuff so far.

[saab2000]

saab2000, a way you may be able to solve both or either of these problems is to delete the app from your phone, and have your phone forget the WU111 (the Di2 bluetooth) in your phone's bluetooth settings. Then you just start all over like it was new, though if you set a new PIN you will likely need to use that.

I agree the app leaves a lot to be desired, but using this I've been able to get through the firmware updates and setup of two Di2 groups using my iPhone. For whatever reason it seems the first attempt with the app doesn't end well, or at least it hasn't for me. Fortunately I haven't really needed the app for anything beyond the initial stuff so far.

Thank you! I will try this. Very good suggestion.

[R3awak3n]

Edit:
Maybe this is my bias shining through. If I were going mechanical, it would be Campagnolo. If I were going electronic, it would be sram. If I were helping a family member or neighbor get their first “nice” bicycle, it would be shimano.


this is where I fall as well, to the T.

[eddief]

both flawless for my riding. my brain gets a little confused when i switch from one to the other in rapid succession but they each are full of fantastic mechanical and electronic wizardry. i really want to say something negative as a way to support the downer opinions here but will need to think about it a while longer. would like to see this thread at 1000 really soon.

[thirdgenbird]

this is where I fall as well, to the T.

The catch with me is the “if” with the “if would go electronic” is pretty big. I really don’t see that happening. It would also be 11spd with Campagnolo cranks, cassette, chain and wheels as I said earlier. ee brakes only because Campagnolo doesn’t have the release. Based on what I’ve read, etap actually shifts better with the Campag parts substituted in.

[maxim809]

So are we headed to a world where road
Maybe this is my bias shining through. If I were going mechanical, it would be Campagnolo. If I were going electronic, it would be sram. If I were helping a family member or neighbor get their first “nice” bicycle, it would be shimano.

This is EXACTLY me as well. My bikes, all mech, are Campy. Someday, I plan to build with SRAM wireless. When I help friends and newcomers, it starts and ends with Shimano -- Campy/SRAM rarely come up unless their inquisitive minds discover these themselves.

Your explanation on how the market stands today between the 3 is also dead accurate.

[lavi]

The catch with me is the “if” with the “if would go electronic”

ee brakes

etap actually shift’s



This. I have EE with my eTap. SBB (Sram Brakes Blow)

[eddief]

with my Etap, no issues.

This. I have EE with my eTap. SBB (Sram Brakes Blow)