Machine vs eyeball fit...

[catulle]

I've noticed that fitters that work with a computer tend to provide you with measurements and then tell you that you must adapt to the new position. On the other hand, builders that mostly fit you without the aid of a computer, tend to build a bicycle where you'll feel comfortable from the get go, except if he/she notices something that you may be doing which is flat wrong.

Question: Which would you prefer?
Question: Who creates the all-knowing computer fit programs?

As always, thank you for reading, and thank you for your comments.

[manet]

and some just run the numbers by their dogs

[atmo]

I've noticed that fiters that work with a computer tend to provide you with measurements and then tell you that you must adapt to the new position. On the other hand, builders that mostly fit you without the aid of a computer, tend to build a bicycle where you'll feel comfortable from the get go, except if he/she notices something that you may be doing which is flat wrong.

Question: Which would you prefer?.
Question: Who creates the all-knowing computer fit programs?

As always, thank you for reading, and thank you for your comments.
fitters might be in a more dominant role if they could
look past the fit part of the equation and also speak
to how the bicycle will/might work once you're atop.
fit is only part of the equation. it has to be part of
a larger equation atmo. your fit (contact points) only
works superbly if it is properly placed above and
between the wheels, and if all the dimensions of the
frame overlap with its intended use.

ps -
the that 70s show rocks.

[Big Dan]

Eyeball baby. It must look good........... :)

[Grant McLean]

fitters might be in a more dominant role if they could
look past the fit part of the equation and also speak
to how the bicycle will/might work once you're atop.
fit is only part of the equation. it has to be part of
a larger equation atmo. your fit (contact points) only
work superbly if they are properly placed above and
between the wheels, and if all the dimensions of the
frame overlap with its intended use.


I think that this ATMO guy has a future in this game if he sticks at it. :)

In my experience, I feel that 'suggesting' a fit postion is only half
the battle. The rider has to want to get there. Ideally, it's the rider
who is in control of where their contact points are. If you ride in messed
up positions for years, any fitter is going to 'move' you into a position
that feels strange. But the computer is only going to tell you something
you should already know.

If someone gave me their contact points, i'd just try hard to design a geo
that would give the rider a chance to have the best handling package given
those realities. I'm not going to critique someones contact points if they
work for them, but how the bike is built, that's another story.

g

[stevep]

a good eye is waaay better than some numbers thrown down,
a computer will never beat a grand master at chess...




i know, i know.

he forgot to pull out the plug before a crucial move.

[obtuse]

you can make any bike fit....it's always a question of given the three contact points which bike is going to handle and perform the best. fit is not a stagnant thing and the best a great fitter can hope to do is get you to a good starting point whereby your own body and style will end up making the important tweaks.....most of the time; if the athlete actually does their part and seriously trains and seriously rides the bike most of the ancient italian formulas work pretty well in establishing a starting point for a properly handling bicycle.

two athletes may have the exact same contact points but i'd still stick'em on two totally different sized bikes in order to put the weight of differently proportioned riders where it ought to be.

then again there's the opposite equation, if you fit roy munson once you've fit him twice.

obtuse

[catulle]

two athletes may have the exact same contact points but i'd still stick'em on two totally different sized bikes in order to put the weight of differently proportioned riders where it ought to be.
obtuse

Er, what if you don't qualify as an athlete, atmo...? What's there for the Wild Turkey and Four Roses types...? Maybe I should be asking Bostondrunk, shouldn't I...? Hey, thank you for your thoughtful responses. And I apologize for initially writing "fiter" instead of "fitter". Uhhh... Oh well, thank you...

[atmo]

Er, what if you don't qualify as an athlete, atmo...? What's there for the Wild Turkey and Four Roses types...? Maybe I should be asking Bostondrunk, shouldn't I...? Hey, thank you for your thoughtful responses. And I apologize for initially writing "fiter" instead of "fitter". Uhhh... Oh well, thank you...
ya' see - that's the thing. on a message board on which
high end bicycles are discussed, fitting usually pertains to
what you'd assimilate for road riding or even for racing.
otoh, if you're talking about fitting for a mtb, or a comfort
bike, or even a normal road bike on which you have abso-
lutely no illusions of using for - well, for going fast enough
to need a heart monitor or 'puter - that's another story.

i don't think it's easy to have a discussion on how-to wrt
fitting unless we know what we are fitting to what atmo.

tell me ya' feel me catulle-issimo atmo.

[obtuse]

Er, what if you don't qualify as an athlete, atmo...? What's there for the Wild Turkey and Four Roses types...? Maybe I should be asking Bostondrunk, shouldn't I...? Hey, thank you for your thoughtful responses. And I apologize for initially writing "fiter" instead of "fitter". Uhhh... Oh well, thank you...


ahm...you're welcom i think? if you don't qualify as an athlete there's two ways to roll...build the bike so it would fit you were you an athlete....that way should you ever decide to get in form and ride it....it'll work for you. in the event you never ride it; at least it will look pro sitting in your garage under the tarp you usually use to cover that broken lawn mower....i honestly believe a race bike in the european tradition is the best type of bike for all people who want to ride on paved and nearly paved roads for durations of time exceeding 90 minutes regardless of their athleticism (or level of intoxication)....humping up a hill or riding along at a good clip is much easier for pretty much everyone when the glutes are working and this is pretty much only possible in the position achievable on a racing bike.

so i guess when i say athlete; i'm thinking of elite purveyers of fine bourbons too.

obtuse

[obtuse]

ya' see - that's the thing. on a message board on which
high end bicycles are discussed, fitting usually pertains to
what you'd assimilate for road riding or even for racing.
otoh, if you're talking about fitting for a mtb, or a comfort
bike, or even a normal road bike on which you have abso-
lutely no illusions of using for - well, for going fast enough
to need a heart monitor or 'puter - that's another story.

i don't think it's easy to have a discussion on how-to wrt
fitting unless we know what we are fitting to what atmo.

tell me ya' feel me catulle-issimo atmo.


atmo-
how would you fit fixed's white uncle butchrides?

obtuse

[atmo]

i honestly believe a race bike in the european tradition is the best type of bike for all people who want to ride on paved and nearly paved roads for durations of time exceeding 90 minutes regardless of their athleticism <cut>


gets it atmo.

[Fat Robert]

my eyeballs just don't fit

maybe i need a machine

[Marco]

Obtuse (and ATMO): can you expand a bit. Circa what? Traditional European circa those-days-gone-by or something more modern?

[Ray]

i honestly believe a race bike in the european tradition is the best type of bike for all people who want to ride on paved and nearly paved roads for durations of time exceeding 90 minutes regardless of their athleticism (or level of intoxication)....humping up a hill or riding along at a good clip is much easier for pretty much everyone when the glutes are working and this is pretty much only possible in the position achievable on a racing bike.
Well, E-Richie says you gets it and I'm in no position to argue with the likes of you and him. But let me put this into the form of a question. I have little standing, but please answer if for no other reason than I share the Sachs-issimo last name and you wouldn't want two R. Sachs's on different pages...

There are people who aren't flexible / strong enough to stay in the position that best takes advantage of said European race geometry for more than, say, 10-20 miles at a time, but are in good enough shape to ride for hours and hours and hours, albeit slowly by the standards of the likes of you's guys. Would it not make more sense to create a bike that maintains the same ANGLES between the a$$, the hands, and the pedals, but rotates the seat back and down and the hands back and up relative to the bb for these riders? This still allows the same use of the glutes (I gotta think - if the hip angle is the same and the same pelvic rotation is there), but puts more weight back on the butt and less on the hands for those who aren't generating as much power through the legs to hold themselves up for hours at a time. And such a position would necessitate moving both wheels further back relative to the BB to maintain the best weight distribution for handling purposes.

There are plenty of bikes out there that do this and they seem to work well for us non-racing types. I've had two customs built by a highly esteemed fitter/designer and they're both biased in this direction. But these bikes seem to contradict your earlier statement. Does your statement assume some baseline level of strength/speed? I ride over 5,000 miles pretty much every year, which ain't euro-pro miles but is plenty nonetheless. And the european race geo you refer to has never worked for me - and I've tried it plenty.

So can both type of geometry co-exist peacefully? Or is one necessarily right or wrong? I ask seriously - I've wondered about this as long as I've been into this bike thing. There must be a reason those euro race geometries developed the way they did, but do they REALLY work for non-racers who aren't all that fast?

-Ray (Sachs, but perhaps not issimo?)

[atmo]

snipped

rs-issimo
the issue is not do you assimilate their position
or their frame geometry, it's does a fitter design
the fit or does he design the frame? at least i
think that is what catulle is getting at. atmo most
fitters don't understand all the nuances of what
happens to the general layout of the bicycle, its
characteristics, how it handles (etc), once the
contact points are established. and to cite grant
and mebbe obtuse too (hopefully i am not not
putting words in their mouths), some fitters don't
even get fit because it is an ever-evolving thing.
what works when your static on a bicycle one hour
may not work that (or as) well once you've gone out
on the finished product and gotten fitter, more
flexible, and are pushing it all with a sidewind
atmo. so - euro trends aside, mebbe consider that
a frame be designed by someone who makes them
and - if need be - have a fitter tell you where your
saddle should be and leave it at that. personally,
and i hate using terms like that since it's all first
person text anyway, i never understood why folks
that spend so much time riding to begin with are
second guessing themselves atmo

[stevep]

There must be a reason those euro race geometries developed the way they did, but do they REALLY work for non-racers who aren't all that fast?

-Ray (Sachs, but perhaps not issimo?)


no.
the position that works great for a 21 yr old belgian who has raced a bike since he was 11 will never work for a 54 yr old stock broker who has just started to ride a bike...no matter how many race videos he has watched.
its like a 54 yr old lawyer watching michael jordan videos to learn how he dunks whereas he has not been able to touch the net in 24 years...." if only i could jump, palm the ball and shoot like that i could be michael jordan..."
( direct quote from the lawyer )

there are compromises in life. this is one.
i respectfully disagree with obtuce.

ps sachs has my michael jordan videos. he can now almost touch the net. atmo.

[Ray]

rs-issimo
the issue is not do you assimilate their position
or their frame geometry, it's does a fitter design
the fit or does he design the frame? at least i
think that is what catulle is getting at. atmo most
fitters don't understand all the nuances of what
happens to the general layout of the bicycle, its
characteristics, how it handles (etc), once the
contact points are established.
I couldn't possibly agree with this more and that's where you and a few other select fitter/designers seem to be head and shoulders above the norm. But that's not what I thought Obtuse was saying in the post I quoted previously, and which you plus one-ed. He was saying, I think, that the Euro-pro geometry that has evolved over the years (although it has changed quite a bit between, say, the '60s and '90s if I'm not mistaken - I'm listening to DBRK on this one) is the best almost universally for anyone who rides for more than an hour or two at a time. Which runs totally counter to my experience and I suspect lots of other folks who seem to do better with longer stays and shorter front centers because their most comfortable long-ride position pulls their weight further back on the bike. Which, it seems to me still allows one to fully involve the glutes in the propulsion process. But its this last point I admit to being least sure of and am always interested in input from thos who understand the physiology better than I do.

FWIW, I'm not second guessing - I know what works for me (having tried damn near everything pretty extensively) and I'm sticking with it. But this topic comes up from time to time and I continue to wonder about the difference between the conventional wisdom and what seems to work for quite a few of us.

-Ray

[shanerpvt]

atmo,

just so i understand this:

master frame builder's eye = campy
computer fit = shimano

[old_school]

i respectfully disagree with obtuce.

Steve,
I'll bet you my old "Jacques" Boyer signature edition saddle (I can't believe I actually sat my a$$ on that one) that Obtuce won't RESPECTFULLY disagree with you.

BTW: I suspect that Sachs is more of a Bird Man than an Air Jordan:

... i'm agitated. i have been since len bias sam cooked himself. i have been since bird retired. the 80s celts were my real muse. i miss the parquet. the banners. the post seasons. red and the cigars. life has been different since the winning ended. we took the pipe at the end of the 80s.

[catulle]

I gets it. I rides every day for a couple of hours, sometimes more, but I still wishes he would find a position where his wrists, arms and shoulders tired a little less. And I minds the hrm on the comp too. I rides his Cinelli Corsa the most because the saddle to bars drop is the least of all his bicycles. However, I does pretty well on his C-50 too but not as well.

I learns here more than on the Encyclopaedia Britannica. And I has more fun here than on TV too; AI notwithstanding. Again, thank you all so much for your shared wisdom. Umm, mane padme ohmmmm...

[atmo]

<snipped>He was saying, I think, that the Euro-pro geometry that has evolved over the years (although it has changed quite a bit between, say, the '60s and '90s if I'm not mistaken - I'm listening to DBRK on this one) is the best almost universally for anyone who rides for more than an hour or two at a time.<cut>
it's not productive to have a fit thread when there is no
such thing as a baseline client. but as i said earlier, one
assumes (i do, at least) that on a message board on which
cost-no-object bicycles are the raison d'etre (that's french for
reason d'etre), most folks wanna look like like a pro when
atop a bicycle; the shades, the tan lines, the assos, the lycra
booties...
well, again to side with obtuse, grant, and atmo atmo, it's that
the position has to be client specific, but the general layout of
those stage-race type bicycles is the best thing for most folks
atmo. someone asked circa what era. atmo the only clear answer
is the era prior to the americanization of the industry, that one
before product designers convinced european icons with decades
of insight to tweak their frames for the north american cat 3
and comfort market. when that change fully permeated the industry,
most bicycles had to be re-thunk before a rider could possibly
assimilate a rational position. fast forward - get a fitter that
understands all this, not simply one schooled in laser beams and
bar graphs. bicycle design (and history) is part of the equation.




BTW: I suspect that Sachs is more of a Bird Man than an Air Jordan:

Originally Posted by e-RICHIE
... i'm agitated. i have been since len bias sam cooked himself. i have been since bird retired. the 80s celts were my real muse. i miss the parquet. the banners. the post seasons. red and the cigars. life has been different since the winning ended. we took the pipe at the end of the 80s

that was one funny post atmo.
i remember never entering a race without my
token celts sweatband on my wrist. oh - the
humanity atmo.

[old_school]

that was one funny post atmo.
i remember never entering a race without my
token celts sweatband on my wrist. oh - the
humanity atmo.

Celtics of old: It was all about the Gestalt.

[stevep]

Steve,
I'll bet you my old "Jacques" Boyer signature edition saddle (I can't believe I actually sat my a$$ on that one) that Obtuce won't RESPECTFULLY disagree with you.

BTW: I suspect that Sachs is more of a Bird Man than an Air Jordan:

obtuce will be missing for the next 6 weeks. he has been taken into "euro fitters rehab" run by the cia in belarus. they are putting a +40 degree stem on his bike right now.
when he gets back he will nod his head in agreement or get electro shock ( again ).

atmo is watching larry bird videos and thinks hes a 5'8" kevin mchale.

go patriots

[atmo]

atmo is watching larry bird videos and thinks hes a 5'8" kevin mchale.

go patriots
i'm out for 3 hours.
i'll give you the look somewhere this spring atmo.


ps good WC result:

9 Jonathan Page (USA) Morgan Blue @3.07
10 Ryan Trebon (USA) Kona @3.21

[saab2000]

....i honestly believe a race bike in the european tradition is the best type of bike for all people who want to ride on paved and nearly paved roads for durations of time exceeding 90 minutes regardless of their athleticism (or level of intoxication)....humping up a hill or riding along at a good clip is much easier for pretty much everyone when the glutes are working and this is pretty much only possible in the position achievable on a racing bike.


This guy appears to get it. This philosophy has also been preached by ATMO and is the truth.

To add something after having re-read the posts by Ray and the others: You don't need to have the flexibility of a pre-pubescent Olympic gymnast to ride a proper race bike. But you do need to spend some time finding balance and harmony. Those are very nebulous terms, I know, but most people don't spend much time with this. I think most people can fit a much more 'racy' bike than they think they can, and without any issues of 'flexibility'. Cyclists don't need to sit upright on their bikes unless they have serious back issues or have a huge beer gut.

[Ray]

This guy appears to get it. This philosophy has also been preached by ATMO and is the truth.

To add something after having re-read the posts by Ray and the others: You don't need to have the flexibility of a pre-pubescent Olympic gymnast to ride a proper race bike. But you do need to spend some time finding balance and harmony. Those are very nebulous terms, I know, but most people don't spend much time with this. I think most people can fit a much more 'racy' bike than they think they can, and without any issues of 'flexibility'. Cyclists don't need to sit upright on their bikes unless they have serious back issues or have a huge beer gut.
Well, I got Stevep on the side I agree with and obtuse, richie-issimo, and Saab on the other and these guys are ALL due a great deal of respect. So, perhaps I should let it go, but what fun would that be, so I'll try it from a slightly different perspective.

There's a lot of room between a fully stretched out racing position and 'upright' as in comfort bike/hybrid/city bike upright. There's also a BIG range between a typically bird-like upper body pro racer with legs of steel and a fat slob with a huge beer gut and legs of rubber. So we're not really just considering two body types OR two geometries/positions here, are we? There's a range between the two extremes and different riders would seem to be most comfortable at different places on that range. I, fer example, sit bolt friggin upright on my town bike, but I don't ride it for more than a mile or two at a time and wouldn't want to. I've had a high and 'neutral' saddle position and low and long bars with a back that's both flat and pretty well parallel to the ground on a racing geometry bike and haven't been able to get comfortable for more than an hour or so on that either - too much weight on the hands / arms / shoulders, like Catulle's talking about.

My sweet spot, arrived at with the great eyeballed help of TK (but there are others who I'm sure could do the job very well also), puts my saddle pretty far back there - back far enough that I need a 72 degree seat tube and a massively setback post to get a Brooks saddle where I need it, and that still puts my knee just about 1.5 cm behind KOPS. (I can get there with a 73 degree ST and more normal seatpost with an Aliante's longer rails, fwiw). With that much saddle setback and a 58.5 cm top tube, I keep the bars within an inch of the saddle's height and use a 10-11cm stem to get there. NOT jerk-approved.

With this setup, my back is 'flat' in the sense that its not rounded and my pelvis rolls forward, but I'm not parallel to the ground unless I'm waaaaay down in the drops with my elbows very bent. My typical riding position has my back probably in the 35-45 degree range on the hoods, a bit flatter in the drops and more upright on the tops. That's the most aggressive position I've been able to get and stay comfortable in over the years, where I seem to achieve my 'balance and harmony'. And kind of mid-point between a aero racing position and a real upright position.

I'm a little under six feet and weigh between 165-175 seasonally, so I'm far from euro-pro dimensions but also far from a fat slob. I do yoga so I've got some flexibility but not as much as I'd like. I'm as fast and efficient as I've ever been on a bike, which isn't very fast but allows me to feel like I'm getting the most out of my riding for the intensity of 'training' I'm willing to do (which isn't very intense). All of this necessitates chainstays that are longer than you'd find on a typical racing frame - Tom has me with 42cm stays and a 610 front-center on my 'fast' bike and stays of 43.5 and FC of 618 on my rando/touring bike (where the bars are even a bit higher). That's not as aggressive as the typical racing bikes or as laid back as most current Rivendell type offerings, but it seems to work perfectly for me.

So I'm an in-between rider with an in-between body on an in-between geometry that results in awesome handling and comfort. That's where I find my 'balance and harmony' as it were. And it seems intuitively right to me also. I'm not gonna change it because of what anyone says on this board, but I'm always interested in the discussion of position and geometry and where I fit on the spectrum, no pun intended.

-Ray

[saab2000]

Ray,

Show us a picture of your bike and I bet it is not all that far off the standard people are talking about.

Obtuse's comment about being in the "European tradition" is fairly broad.

Look at pictures of Europro racing from as recently as the early 80's (I know, it was 25 years ago, but Sean Kelly raced then and he was a giant among men), and you will see race bikes which are hardly extreme.

Things have changed today in appearance but that is partly because of the placement of the 'brifters' much higher up on the bars than they used to be.

BTW, just shy of 6'00" and at your weight you are not dramatically off the dimensions of the pro racers. Not at all.

[Ray]

Ray,

Show us a picture of your bike and I bet it is not all that far off the standard people are talking about. See below. This is how they look today. Bars higher and closer than a racing position, saddle probably farther back as well. And longer stays than ordinary to account for where I carry my weight. Of course, the bike without me on it is only part of the story. Sorry for the small size - it's all the software seems to allow me to upload.

Obtuse's comment about being in the "European tradition" is fairly broad.

Look at pictures of Europro racing from as recently as the early 80's (I know, it was 25 years ago, but Sean Kelly raced then and he was a giant among men), and you will see race bikes which are hardly extreme. That's a good point - there's been some change over the years, so that statement leaves a bit of leeway. But most of the bikes Obtuse seems to be big on these days have very short chainstays and very long and low bars. Which I cain't sit on for long.

BTW, just shy of 6'00" and at your weight you are not dramatically off the dimensions of the pro racers. Not at all.
For the sake of charity, lets say you're right. But I've seen those guys and from the waist up they're almost non-existent and their legs are HUGE. My dimensions are more, shall we say, balanced :beer: Which of course changes where the weight is carried on the bike and where the wheels should be under my mass versus theirs to get to similar places in terms of handling. Which I think is what Richie-issimo said way back there near the top - no? So different geometries make sense. To me, anyway.

-Ray

[obtuse]

ray-

your spectrums look right to me. those bikes are not examples of the "faster backwards" club that have handlebars higher than the seat AND stupidly steep seat angles, non-setback posts and front centers, wheelbases and resulting top tube lengths more appropriate for bikes5 or 6 cms smaller.

the thing about a euro-race bike, (as atmo stated) at least before it was co-opted and mutated by the american mtb industry, is that it produces a powerful, comfortable, efficient and fast position for long distance riding....your bike looks like someone who knew what they were doing took an aggressive riding position and just rotated the rider back around the bb.....bringing the hbars up, the saddle back and down a bit all while not affecting the reach or the hip angle that makes sure the biggest muscles in the body are working to make the bike forward....this is also the geometry found on dbrk's french bikes and ironically employs exactly the same theories as one would employ on setting up an athlete on proper time trial bike only we end up rotating the rider the other way around the bottom bracket.....keeping the hip angle the same, the reach the same but allowing a lower handlebar position for better aerodynmacs.

i guess in short; i don't see your bike(s) as outside of the tradition of race bike design i was talking about.....would i fit you a bit lower in the front end with slightly less set back? i don't know; because i don't know you or your style...but your bikes look well thought out and have a hell of alot more in common with my bikes than they do with those monstrosities with 75' seat angles, 25cm headtubes, 53cm top tubes and all that jazz that seems to define "custom road bike" these days.

obtuse

[shinomaster]

Never trust a computer,

[Ray]

your bike looks like someone who knew what they were doing took an aggressive riding position and just rotated the rider back around the bb.....bringing the hbars up, the saddle back and down a bit all while not affecting the reach or the hip angle that makes sure the biggest muscles in the body are working to make the bike forward....this is also the geometry found on dbrk's french bikes and ironically employs exactly the same theories as one would employ on setting up an athlete on proper time trial bike only we end up rotating the rider the other way around the bottom bracket.....keeping the hip angle the same, the reach the same but allowing a lower handlebar position for better aerodynmacs.
Obtuse - thanks for the observations. That was the question I was asking - if you maintain the body angles but rotate the body backwards around the BB a bit to get the weight back, don't you still keep your glutes involved in the pedal stroke? It seemed to me that you could, but I wasn't sure based on the various responses. But I'm glad to hear it from someone with your knowledge.

I'm aware these are similar to the 'french fit' bikes that Douglas pushes - I've been on these types of bikes for a while and had the conversation with him a number of times over the years since my first Riv in '97. I started with Rivendell's slightly more extreme version of the French fit idea (I think they've gone further in that direction recently) and stepped back from it a bit with the position Tom K put me in. But any more forward rotation and I can't maintain it for longer rides.

As always, it's been educational...

-Ray

[saab2000]

Ray,

The only thing I don't get about your bikes is how you can ride with that much backwards tilt on the seats!! That looks bizarre to my eye. But if it works, more power to ya!

The irrepressible Swiss racer from the 80s Beat Breu used a similar seat tilt and he was the real deal.

[Climb01742]

i think a fundamnetal question about fit is: how willing is the rider to work on his/her body to enhance performance? if a rider is basically happy with their body (weight, range of motion, strengths/weaknesses, what injuries have done to them) then it's probably wise to design a bike around that body. but if a rider is aware of, and willing, to address things like weight, flexibility, core strength, muscle weaknesses because they_want_to (not because they feel they should) then designing a bike more toward an optimum position makes sense.

either way is "right". we all have physical limitations or quirks. riding comfortably and enjoying it is the goal. accepting our bodies as they are, and designing a bike to do that is one way. wanting to change our bodies and designing a bike focused on that future position is another way. i've had bikes designed with both those philosophies, just at different points in my riding life. as has been said a million times, fit is dynamic.

[shinomaster]

Ray, I have been to three different fitters and got three different opinions about how I should fit a bike. The last was by a legendary Serotta fitter here in Portland who suggested I get bike with a 60cm top tube with a 54cc seat tube.
But to get into that position I needed to "roll" forward and sit a very uncomfortable part of my anatomy, that seems completely unnatural. It would be a bike that likely rolls in a straight line fast, but corners and descends like a stretch limousine hearse.
Experiences like these have led me to not trust the majority of fitters, and to second guess myself, and them. The next time I get fit I would like it to be by the peron who will build the bike.

[obtuse]

Ray, I have been to three different fitters and got three different opinions about how I should fit a bike. The last was by a legendary Serotta fitter here in Portland who suggested I get bike with a 60cm top tube with a 54cc seat tube.
But to get into that position I needed to "roll" forward and sit a very uncomfortable part of my anatomy, that seems completely unnatural. It would be a bike that likely rolls in a straight line fast, but corners and descends like a stretch limousine hearse.
Experiences like these have led me to not trust the majority of fitters, and to second guess myself, and them. The next time I get fit I would like it to be by the peron who will build the bike.

54cm with a 60cm top tube bub?
don't trust anyone who designs a bike around top tube length. it should always be a driven measurement not a driving one. there's too much important stuff having to do where the rider goes and where the wheels go to rely on something as random as top tube length.

obtuse

[shinomaster]

Obtuse. The next time I come back to Boston I'll bring my caad4, and I'll have you fit me...? I liked the Nerac Love bikes you guys had...Why are the chainstays so bulbus on that bike?

[catulle]

So I'm an in-between rider with an in-between body on an in-between geometry that results in awesome handling and comfort. That's where I find my 'balance and harmony' as it were. And it seems intuitively right to me also. -Ray

I like it in-between too, atmo. Lots of comfort.

[SoCalSteve]

Obtuse. The next time I come back to Boston I'll bring my caad4, and I'll have you fit me...? I liked the Nerac Love bikes you guys had...Why are the chainstays so bulbus on that bike?

If you think they are bulbous on the Love #3 bikes, you should check out the Big Leg Emma chainstays.

[Ray]

Ray,

The only thing I don't get about your bikes is how you can ride with that much backwards tilt on the seats!! That looks bizarre to my eye. But if it works, more power to ya!

The irrepressible Swiss racer from the 80s Beat Breu used a similar seat tilt and he was the real deal.
It's funny Saab - I always react the same way when I see it in pictures. In person, it never looks like that to me and other people don't react to it when they see it leaning up against a fence at a ride start. If you look at the back end of the saddle, its actually very level, with the front tiliting up. I think it may work because of the way I'm rotated back around the BB with my hand up higher and closer - if I was rotated more forward and my hands were lower and more forward, I suspect the saddle tilt would have to move in that same direction as well to maintain the same hip/pelvis angle. But that's also when I start feeling like I'm falling forward and making my arms and shoulders do more work to hold me up. It looks goofy, but it feels right to me and the equipment still works, so it's not doing the damage it looks like it could be.

Either that or I'm secretly a BMX boy!

-Ray

[manet]

I like it in-between too, atmo. Lots of comfort.

without in-between, we would lack shady valleys to ride down on a hot summer's day, or worse yet _ no cleavage

[catulle]

I like going down on hot summer days. It sure beats climbing, atmo.

[catulle]

These positions seem sensible to me, atmo...

[Ray]

These positions seem sensible to me, atmo...
Yup, but they're all going uphill, so the bars appear higher than they would be on level ground. They used to TT on those same bikes, I think, so I'm sure the bars were low enough to get very aero.

-Ray

[manet]

watch this youtube of lemond's win at the worlds.
fignon and lemond ride very powerfully while
riding on the tops. it stuck out like paris hilton in church.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yJSgzHTRg38

[ada@prorider.or]

well there too many people who use machine´s with a fit with out any biomechanic backup as well computer calc as well with out see ing how people perform


sample a know doctor as well biomechanic analyse a cyclist
with 3 d camera´s all the works laser measurement and all
they end up with fit with a laser beam along his leg and a animation of the the leg movement
make a fit ,and do not see the real point that his feet has to a angle to his leg with 40 degree
making a fit force him to align his feet with his leg in a straight line

well result lot of problems afterwords and cannot perform like he should

the fit has cost 800 dollars
and was worthless


the same can you see in aerodynamic fittings
it a complex thing ,

[soulspinner]

descending at 90 kilometers per hour in the rain...BIG ones!

[Fat Robert]

feel has everything to do with it -- both for the rider and the fitter.

i gave up on "fitters" (bear in mind i was a "fitter" myself, plugging away with the Fit Kit at shops during the summer) after a custom experience a few years ago. i'll call my position mp -- my back isn't flat, and i have a little cross-scrunch thing going on. but, that's where i feel most natural and balanced, and get my front end low enough to race with the fast old kids while still keeping my weight on my sit bones and not my taint.

get too low, my knees hurt. get too long (the 130 i had on my pacenti got replaced by a 120 as i'm working that bike out), my wee-wee hurts. the right spot means where nothing hurts, and I feel like I'm pedaling from my hips/glutes rather than thighs/knees (does that make sense?). its all about feel.

a few artist-fitters can get it right by eyeballing. good luck finding one, though, unless you're near chester, or the barn, or dario's shack, or chattanooga, or a few other places. the shop monkeys (which i've been) have to have some rules of thumb.

for what little it may be worth, i think the "aussie" school of dynamic fit makes lot of sense (that guy who answers Qs on cyclingnews.com). toss out the plumb bobs, and instead of proportional rules like kops, use functional rules -- get the hips and pelvis stable, get the glutes engaged, get the extension right for that individual, and then find the comfortable reach point.

everyone has different proportions -- but we share the same principles of muscle function and posture when riding a bike (what obtuse talks about when he's rotating dudes around the bb). achieving proper posture and function will produce some proportional relationships that are in the plumb bob and goniometer "ranges," but setting someone up with plumb bobs and goniometers will not always produce proper posture and function...

[atmo]

Well, I got Stevep on the side I agree with and obtuse, richie-issimo, and Saab on the other and these guys are ALL due a great deal of respect. So, perhaps I should let it go, but what fun would that be, so I'll try it from a slightly different perspective. <cut>



i'm not on the other side.
we agree - let a fitter fit, assuming you trust
him and all that. but muzzle him once he tries
to also design your frame unless he makes
them too atmo. fit and frame design are separate
issues atmo and i thought that was catulle's point.

[nicrump]

i'm not on the other side.
we agree - let a fitter fit, assuming you trust
him and all that. but muzzle him once he tries
to also design your frame unless he makes
them too atmo. fit and frame design are separate
issues atmo and i thought that was catulle's point.

gets it

[Ray]

i'm not on the other side.
we agree - let a fitter fit, assuming you trust
him and all that. but muzzle him once he tries
to also design your frame unless he makes
them too atmo. fit and frame design are separate
issues atmo and i thought that was catulle's point.
Fair 'nuf. I took the thread pretty far afield from the original question - apologies. I'd clearly vote for the talented, experienced eyeballer over the computer every time. And an integrated fitter/designer like you, Tom, or one of a handfull of other folks who can eyeball both the fit and the weight distribution parts of it.

-Ray

[manet]

ray rides.

iffn' i recall correctly we rode for a stretch at a little under 20mph in rock creek park, all the while having a helluva conversation.

[atmo]

...and ray has superb initials atmo.

[catulle]

watch this youtube of lemond's win at the worlds.
fignon and lemond ride very powerfully while
riding on the tops. it stuck out like paris hilton in church.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yJSgzHTRg38

My legs hurt from watching that piece of video. I could not get rid of the idea that the delta brakes on Fignon's bike were holding him back. And going down at 60mph on a wet road...!! No sport is tougher than cycling, no even boxing, atmo...

[catulle]

The Holy Trinity. One of the Mysteries of the Roman Catholic religion: Three different individualities but only one true God. Frame design and contact points, two different things but only one Gestalt. St. Atmo of Chester, "The Theology of the Road Bike". I love this neck of the woods, atmo.

[atmo]

it's all in the richard manual atmo -

[manet]

it's all in the richard manual atmo -

ah, the UNIVAC fit system _ dusty, yet trusty.

[atmo]

ah, the UNIVAC fit system _ dusty, yet trusty.
big and pink atmo -

[catulle]

The richards manual is a gas too, atmo...

[atmo]

The richards manual is a gas too, atmo...
http://theband.hiof.no/band_members/richard.html
none better atmo -

[catulle]

http://theband.hiof.no/band_members/richard.html
none better atmo -

Georgia on my Mind...?

[Peter P.]

Ray; what I think you have are hip rotation problems. From the pictures of your bikes, your saddles are pointed UP in a manner which would in theory be inconsistent with a "comfortable" position. Since the hips can't rotate to push your torso forward and enable you to reach out/down to a more "standard" bar height, you raise the bars to compensate.

You've ridden enough and tried enough standard/normal positioning on bikes to KNOW what doesn't work. You then found a builder (Thank you, Tom Kellogg) who listened to you, examined your position and perhaps looked at an existing bike to see where you stood and where your "fit journey" was leading. Then he got you there.

Some builders work towards what the CUSTOMER wants, some work towards what the FRAMEBUILDER sees as correct. The question is; which is MORE correct?

[swoop]

i know i'm stepping on toes when i say this. but there are people that ride bikes and there are cyclists. both require a good fit...but have little in common.

that isn't to suggest a hierarchy nor am i telling anyone that they are or aren't a cyclist.
when i pick up a camera and take a picture i'm a guy taking a picutre with a camera. i love taking pictures! i'm not a photographer. it's like that.

[atmo]

i love taking pictures! i'm not a photographer. it's like that.
you can call me man ray atmo. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_J._Johnson)

[shinomaster]

How do I know what catagory I'm in?

[atmo]

How do I know what catagory I'm in?
if you let that cat sell you a 60 x 54,
well - i'll let you decide atmo. put
smiley face here -----> _______ .

[swoop]

How do I know what catagory I'm in?

i'm not the decider :)
i just love anyone that loves riding a bike.

i know i'm not a photographer.

[Xyzzy]

How do I know what catagory I'm in?Isn't it something like: If you have to ask, you aren't?

Kind of like: If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it.

Or something like that.

[shinomaster]

Atmo? Will you build me that bicycle? :)

[Xyzzy]

i love taking pictures! i'm not a photographer. it's like that.Campy = Nikon FM2n
Shimano = Canon EOS RT
Sram = Disposable P&S

[shinomaster]

campy chorus=pentax k1000

[atmo]

Atmo? Will you build me that bicycle? :)
no - i met you briefly.
whatever your size, 60x54 is not your size atmo.

[SoCalSteve]

i know i'm stepping on toes when i say this. but there are people that ride bikes and there are cyclists. both require a good fit...but have little in common.

that isn't to suggest a hierarchy nor am i telling anyone that they are or aren't a cyclist.
when i pick up a camera and take a picture i'm a guy taking a picutre with a camera. i love taking pictures! i'm not a photographer. it's like that.

The love that you have for taking photo's makes you a photographer.

It's that simple.

[1centaur]

rider....cyclist; snapper....photographer

both are continuums, and where you or a neutral oberserver places you on that line says much more about the placer than the placed. Factors in that placing include serious interest, time spent, effort, knowledge, natural talent, and probably many others.

Personally, and I recognize this says more about me than anyone here, I doubt anyone on this forum with more than a few posts should not be viewed as a cyclist.

[shinomaster]

no - i met you briefly.
whatever your size, 60x54 is not your size atmo.

Lets do lunch. I love a good rubin.

[atmo]

Lets do lunch. I love a good rubin.
you're not a photographer or a jew - it's a reuben atmo!
nomatta. you, me, and SoCalSteve take lunch asap.

[shinomaster]

I drew this atmo.

[swoop]

The love that you have for taking photo's makes you a photographer.

It's that simple.
nope. it makes me a guy with a camera that loves taking pictures.

one is mindful and one is mindless.

clicking a camera because it feels good is mindless. understand how to hold the camera and the context or the choices your making is mindful. biking is the same way. doesn't matter what kind of bike..

(i don't shoot pics.. i was making a point).

[oracle]

nope. it makes me a guy with a camera that loves taking pictures.

one is mindful and one is mindless.

clicking a camera because it feels good is mindless. understand how to hold the camera and the context or the choices your making is mindful. biking is the same way. doesn't matter what kind of bike..

(i don't shoot pics.. i was making as point).


can the distinctions really be that simple or clear cut?

[catulle]

can the distinctions really be that simple or clear cut?

Of course not. +1 on the hypothetical... Remember RD Laing...?

[swoop]

can the distinctions really be that simple or clear cut?
nah... but for sure in the ballpark. i didnt have the desire to write an essay.. but i think the concept speaks volumes-ish.

regardless.. mindful/mindless... riding is great. panache makes the world go round.

[atmo]

nah... but for sure in the ballpark. i didnt have the desire to write an essay.. but i think the concept speaks volumes-ish.

regardless.. mindful/mindless... riding is great. panache makes the world go round.
good tanlines help too atmo.

[Len J]

i know i'm stepping on toes when i say this. but there are people that ride bikes and there are cyclists. both require a good fit...but have little in common.

that isn't to suggest a hierarchy nor am i telling anyone that they are or aren't a cyclist.
when i pick up a camera and take a picture i'm a guy taking a picutre with a camera. i love taking pictures! i'm not a photographer. it's like that.

Say the first, outlined above, explained by the second.....and then cop out by saying you are not suggesting a heirarchy?

Swoop....I love most of your posts but this is disingenuous.

Len

[oracle]

Of course not. +1 on the hypothetical... Remember RD Laing...?


rd laing (http://www.undercover.com.au/pics/kdlang_9.jpg)

[swoop]

Say the first, outlined above, explained by the second.....and then cop out by saying you are not suggesting a heirarchy?

Swoop....I love most of your posts but this is disingenuous.

Len


there is no hierarchy. i think its about making a conscious choice... mindless has its place in my life as does mindful.
one isn't better because they are two completely different experiences.

sometimes a number 2 meal with a coke is the best food in the world.
i mean every word.

where i get jerkish is when the mindless dude assumes he's mindful. it gets my irk because it is a kind of blindness to detail and attention.


ish.

[Ginger]

Perhaps I get what swoop is after...ok, no I don't...but I have an opinion...photographers in the crowd may have a difference of opinion...

Photographer/picture taker...There's a difference of desire and being.
It's the sacrifice of time, the pouring out of the soul into the camera. A life focus. Not needing to guess anything because you've done it so many times before that even blindfolded you can set your camera for a shot. You look at a meter out of habit, not because you need it. But nothing is left to mere chance. Light can be perfect for only a moment, or for an hour, that you don't know. Film is cheap, but film is money (I know this is an outmoded train of thought, but digitals are just coming into film's realm, it will be there soon enough). Occasionally you're surprised, but not often. And because you're not guessing you're focusing on the subject, capturing that moment, making personal commentary for those who care to see it, or pretty pictures for those who don't understand why this is different from/or paying tribute to what came before. And, sadly, being able to gauge the commercial success of a photo on the contact sheet, but coming out of the dark room with many more successful photos -- whether commercial or personal -- than throw away shots. Taking up jobs that pay the bills so you can continue the conversation with images. And making a life of you and the camera.

Of course, I know people who own studios who are just guys taking pictures and they make a fine living that way...

I also think there's a difference between technical brilliance and talent...I think you can wow people and still be shooting garbage. But that's a different subject (sort of like racers riding clean and racers on performance enhancing drugs...)

YMMV


(No. I'm not a photographer.)

What was the subject?

[Len J]

there is no hierarchy. i think its about making a conscious choice... mindless has its place in my life as does mindful.
one isn't better because they are two completely different experiences.

sometimes a number 2 meal with a coke is the best food in the world.
i mean every word.


But as someone else said...it's a cotinuem......It also my change ride to ride.

Len

[swoop]

But as someone else said...it's a cotinuem......It also my change ride to ride.

Len


and both are valid experiences. on the superficial level they look the same.. but the share very little in common.

and to get funky.. there is even a mindful mindlessness!

[shinomaster]

nope. it makes me a guy with a camera that loves taking pictures.

one is mindful and one is mindless.

clicking a camera because it feels good is mindless. understand how to hold the camera and the context or the choices your making is mindful. biking is the same way. doesn't matter what kind of bike..

(i don't shoot pics.. i was making a point).

Malarkey! But, anyway, I know what you mean.

[oracle]

and both are valid experiences.

is there such a thing as an invalid experience?

[swoop]

is there such a thing as an invalid experience?

yes, there is only one. a jessica simpson concert. as for axl rose.... its your call...
:P

this is all stuff that needs a gentle laugh.... it aint that serious. fitted by a program at wrenchscience and fitted by the wonderful tom kellogg have nothing to do with each other.

clearly you can put a mievici next to a felt and sense that these are not the same thing? yet, they are the same thing.

[chrisroph]

How do I know what catagory I'm in?


Shino:

You are a cyclist man, lots of talent and ability to be harnessed.

[shinomaster]

Shino:

You are a cyclist man, lots of talent and ability to be harnessed.

Thank's man..I rode today! But, I hurt my leg again.....ouch.

[Ginger]

Thank's man..I rode today! But, I hurt my leg again.....ouch.
It's probably the harness...take that thing off! he didn't mean it literally...

[shinomaster]

atmo

[shinomaster]

It's probably the harness...take that thing off! he didn't mean it literally...


Harness? What am I a draught horse?

[chrisroph]

Thank's man..I rode today! But, I hurt my leg again.....ouch.


I took the day off. 30 miles on the fixie on friday and 40 yesterday, i needed a break.

what's up with your leg?

[shinomaster]

Same injury as last summer, It must have never healed. It's my left center quad muscle, keeps feeling pulled and confused. I should go see a PT.

[Grant McLean]

http://theband.hiof.no/band_members/richard.html
none better atmo -


http://theband.hiof.no/band_pictures/manuelrichard_grave.html

only an hour or so from me.
come for a visit!

g

[SoCalSteve]

you're not a photographer or a jew - it's a reuben atmo!
nomatta. you, me, and SoCalSteve take lunch asap.

Lunch is on me!

[shinomaster]

OMG, Steve that's half a cow on your plate!

[manet]

... there is even a mindful mindlessness!

... moments of this linked together fill my day

[SoCalSteve]

OMG, Steve that's half a cow on your plate!

Thats lunch for you, E-Richie and myself...

Pickles, coleslaw, Dr Brown's Cream soda and deli mustard included.

[Ray]

Shino:

You are a cyclist man, lots of talent and ability to be harnessed.
God knows where that leaves me - very little talent or ability, but mindful as hell. I've put waaay more time and energy into THINKING about bikes and riding than makes any sense for someone not in the bidness. But I DO love to ride!

And YO, Manet - you remember that 20mph ride up Rock Creek differently than I do. You and Spectrum Bob up front pulling the group of us, me sitting in and then fighting like hell every time there was a small hill. The only part of the 'conversation' I recall being in on was, "Hey, is Ray back on yet?" and me croaking out a "yeah, more or less" when I was. But I enjoyed it immensely and thanks again for the pull :beer:

-Ray