Stupid Tubeless Sealant Question

[dumbod]

So I have a new set of Hed Ardennes with Giant tubeless tires. I was on a ride yesterday and pickup up a tack in my rear tire. It was hitting the frame, so I pulled the tack and the tire immediately deflated. I tried to reinflate using a CO2 and the hole wouldn't seal. I had a tube but couldn't get the tire to unseat from the rim. (That's a whole different issue.)

So my question is this: should I have let the wheel sit (hole facing down) for a time to let the sealant set or was I just SOL?

Thanks.

[fmradio516]

sealant should have sealed that easily if it was just a pin hole and didnt tear. Did the sealant dry out or something?

[dumbod]

No, the wheel's only two weeks old and there was sealant leaking out of the valve. I just tried to inflate the tire again and was able to get up to about 50 psi before it started to leak again (with sealant coming out of the hole.) I'm going to let it sit for 24 hours with some pressure in it and see what happens. Fingers crossed but if anyone else has a solution, I'd love to hear it.

[Jaybee]

Any idea what kind of sealant? I've only used Stans and a couple flavors of Orange Seal, but both would have taken care of that immediately. Letting gravity help is usually useful too, though I don't think it should have been necessary here.

[robt57]

Only stupid sealant answers, and here is mine: ;)

How much sealant did you use in what size tire?

I have noticed quicker results if you spin the puncture to the bottom the second to pull the tac/staple in my case. So the little pool of sealant get directly to work before out of air. So see my first question regarding 'how much sealant' was used...

[jtakeda]

Where is it leaking out of the valve? That shouldve been plugged up no prob.

Did you set up the tubeless wheels?

[dumbod]

I can't answer any of your questions because the shop where I bought the wheels set them up. Rest assured, however, that questions will be asked on them when they open up on Wednesday.

Thanks for all of your input though.

[makoti]

I had an issue like this. Hole would not seal. Ended up getting a boot in the tire, but I was told that my mistake was not letting the tire sit at low (not no) pressure for a day to let the sealant harden. It did, however, get me home. Just wouldn't hold air for any real length of time.

[vqdriver]

agree with above. i've had holes like that that sealed more or less immediately. only way i knew was the sealant spewing out of there. probably lost a bit of pressure but the puncture itself wasn't an issue. i just kept riding with the thought that spinning the wheel would force more sealant towards the puncture. (plus i was too lazy to stop and do anything...)

i would venture to guess that whoever added the sealant didn't shake it before adding it to the wheel. there's little bits of particulate in there that probably settled.
only other thought would be that i haven't used tubeless on road/cx tires so i'm not sure how the higher pressures affect sealant. if that were me, i'd have turned the hole to the bottom so sealant was spewing out and applied pressure with my finger, like applying pressure to a bleeding wound.

[fmradio516]

if you feel like replacing the sealant, go for Muc-off. Its supposed to be great at sealing >5mm holes.

[BryanE]

Stans dart

[unterhausen]

Stans dart

a tack shouldn't require anything like a DART or other type of plug

[ColonelJLloyd]

Sealant leaking around the valve is not fault of the sealant, but usually a result of poor installation (not tightening it sufficiently) or user error (loosening the valve when removing the valve core).

Hard to imagine Orange Seal not sealing up a tack puncture if there was sealant in the tire. I'm assuming the shop used something else.

[MikeD]

Sealant leaking around the valve is not fault of the sealant, but usually a result of poor installation (not tightening it sufficiently) or user error (loosening the valve when removing the valve core).



Hard to imagine Orange Seal not sealing up a tack puncture if there was sealant in the tire. I'm assuming the shop used something else.



I also read that if sealant leaks under the tape, due to a bad tape job, that it will come out at the valve.

[kppolich]

My guess is the sealant was dried out. I've had stans and orange seal both dry out in the wheel and then it's just no good at sealing holes.

Replace with this and give it the ear check (listen for sloshing) every 2 months or so.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/500ml-TruckerCo-Cream-II-2-latex-mountain-road-bike-Tubeless-Tire-Sealant-pint/261101506872?hash=item3ccadcd138:g:XH8AAOSwSk5dQkN D

[ti_or_die]

I have used sealant for over five years and never had a small puncture not seal. My go-to sealant is Orange Seal (but the Subzero version). Going tubeless is finicky for tires, sealant, and rims, but once you find a good combination, it works well.

If you couldn't get the tire off, then it had a good rim-tire seal.
Not shaking the contents of the bottle enough before pouring, not adding the adequate ounces for a fresh install, using older sealant...those are all possibilities.

I know that with my mountain bike tires, I have seen sealant weeping through the thinner sidewall tires, so I know that some rubber compounds are porous to the sealant.

[bikinchris]

At road bike pressures, sealant doesn't work very well. One trick is to put (plastic based) glitter in the sealant.

[bikinchris]

My guess is the sealant was dried out. I've had stans and orange seal both dry out in the wheel and then it's just no good at sealing holes.

Replace with this and give it the ear check (listen for sloshing) every 2 months or so.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/500ml-TruckerCo-Cream-II-2-latex-mountain-road-bike-Tubeless-Tire-Sealant-pint/261101506872?hash=item3ccadcd138:g:XH8AAOSwSk5dQkN D

He has had the wheels two weeks.

[oldpotatoe]

So I have a new set of Hed Ardennes with Giant tubeless tires. I was on a ride yesterday and pickup up a tack in my rear tire. It was hitting the frame, so I pulled the tack and the tire immediately deflated. I tried to reinflate using a CO2 and the hole wouldn't seal. I had a tube but couldn't get the tire to unseat from the rim. (That's a whole different issue.)

So my question is this: should I have let the wheel sit (hole facing down) for a time to let the sealant set or was I just SOL?

Thanks.

Not a stupid question at all. Either not enough sealant or the sealant has dried out. I would think sealant, any of them, would seal a tack hole BUT, it may have just been too big for the sealant or the amount of sealant or the condition of the sealant.

I see-new wheels..I suspect not enough sealant in there and then not around the hole..

[dumbod]

Just to add to the mystery.

Last night, I positioned the whole at the bottom and tried to pressurize. It held at 60 psi, blew when I went to 80psi but stopped leaking when the pressure returned to 60psi. I left it alone overnight.

This morning it inflated to normal riding pressure (85-90 psi) and seems to be holding fine. Now the question is do I trust it to ride on it.

[AngryScientist]

Just to add to the mystery.

Last night, I positioned the whole at the bottom and tried to pressurize. It held at 60 psi, blew when I went to 80psi but stopped leaking when the pressure returned to 60psi. I left it alone overnight.

This morning it inflated to normal riding pressure (85-90 psi) and seems to be holding fine. Now the question is do I trust it to ride on it.

personally, based on all the uncertainty, i would pull the tire off, inspect the tape job and make sure there is sufficient sealant in the tire. then you have peace of mind knowing you're good, rather than guessing.

[CNY rider]

Is all of this hassle really worth it for road bike tires?
I "get it" for mountain biking.
Changing out a tube would have taken 10 minutes. And then you ride on and forget about it. No "checking for sloshing" every 2 months or battling to get a tire off a rim.

[Jaybee]

Just to add to the mystery.

Last night, I positioned the whole at the bottom and tried to pressurize. It held at 60 psi, blew when I went to 80psi but stopped leaking when the pressure returned to 60psi. I left it alone overnight.

This morning it inflated to normal riding pressure (85-90 psi) and seems to be holding fine. Now the question is do I trust it to ride on it.

If it were me, I’d add another 30ml of (well-shaken) sealant to account for what was lost or maybe lacking in the first place and ride it.

[bikinchris]

Is all of this hassle really worth it for road bike tires?
I "get it" for mountain biking.
Changing out a tube would have taken 10 minutes. And then you ride on and forget about it. No "checking for sloshing" every 2 months or battling to get a tire off a rim.

There are some areas that need sealant even for road bikes. But most of us don't need it. I just changed my wife's rear tire. It had worn to the casing. This makes about 6 or 7 worn out tires without a flat. I have no intention of going tubeless and resent having to mount my conventional tires on tubeless ready rims.

[Jaybee]

Is all of this hassle really worth it for road bike tires?
I "get it" for mountain biking.
Changing out a tube would have taken 10 minutes. And then you ride on and forget about it. No "checking for sloshing" every 2 months or battling to get a tire off a rim.

Personal experience only: I’ve had one (1) tubeless flat in the last 5 years of regular riding - road, gravel, trails, and it wasn’t on the road. I don’t even notice pinholes of the type the OP is describing unless I see a dot or two of sealant on the frame post-ride. This is an odd and rare failure for a tubeless system.

Checking for sloshing doesn’t take any longer than adding a few PSI to a tubed system, and plenty of tubed clinchers are beasts to wrestle on and off in the field too.

Again, describing my personal calculus only, tubeless is more than worth it.

[oldpotatoe]

Is all of this hassle really worth it for road bike tires?
I "get it" for mountain biking.
Changing out a tube would have taken 10 minutes. And then you ride on and forget about it. No "checking for sloshing" every 2 months or battling to get a tire off a rim.

Glad somebody said it....:)

Particularly when the OP mentioned he couldn't get the tire away from the rim, even tho he had a tube.->rescue...:eek:
This is an odd and rare failure for a tubeless system.


I would say the OP's adventure was neither 'odd' nor 'rare'...

[ColonelJLloyd]

Personal experience only: I’ve had one (1) tubeless flat in the last 5 years of regular riding - road, gravel, trails, and it wasn’t on the road. I don’t even notice pinholes of the type the OP is describing unless I see a dot or two of sealant on the frame post-ride. This is an odd and rare failure for a tubeless system.

Checking for sloshing doesn’t take any longer than adding a few PSI to a tubed system, and plenty of tubed clinchers are beasts to wrestle on and off in the field too.

Again, describing my personal calculus only, tubeless is more than worth it.

This is my experience as well.

I'll echo AngryScientist. You can't be guessing around here. The tire needs to be removed and the issue assessed and properly addressed. I realize some riders can't change a tube and have a shop do it. That's fine. If that's the case, though, it seems a tubeless setup may be one additional level of complication that a rider without the required tools and experience should forgo.

After 26 posts do we know yet what rim, tire, valve, and sealant the OP is using? 85-90psi for a tubeless tire? I just don't get that. Perhaps there are no hard and fast rules, but from my experience it would seem if your tire will require more than 60psi then put a tube in it.

I have never had tubeless tubeless issues that weren't the result of my inexperience and/or ignorance. Anyone who is interested in running tubeless should get a tutorial on setup from an experienced wrench or watch a bunch of YouTube videos.

[dumbod]

After 26 posts do we know yet what rim, tire, valve, and sealant the OP is using? 85-90psi for a tubeless tire? I just don't get that. Perhaps there are no hard and fast rules, but from my experience it would seem if your tire will require more than 60psi then put a tube in it.
.

For what it's worth, Hed Ardennes wheels and Giant Gavia AC0 tires. Don't know the brand of sealant or valve because (1) I didn't install them and (2) the shop that did install them won't be open until later in the week. FWIW, the recommended tire pressures on the tire are 85-115.

The leak was annoying, hence this post. The real kicker was that I had a backup tube that I was unable to use because I couldn't get a Pedro tire lever under the bead to get the damn tire off the rim. I've used tubeless wheels for a couple of years and never had either of these problems.

And, yes, I can change a tube.

[AngryScientist]

And, yes, I can change a tube.

lol.

in this case - no, you couldnt.

i dont mean to sound harsh, because we all have things to learn, but this was user error on your part, for sure. you just needed to squeeze the tire and unseat the bead to get a lever under it.

just filling in the blanks so you'll know for next time on the road. tubeless rims have a valley in the center and you need to unseat the bead from the rim in order to remove the tire, or get a tube in on one side.

it's easy once you have the basic idea down. i still recommend you go unseat the bead, check the rim tape job and ensure there is enough sealant in the tire. then you'll be sure.

good luck!

[benb]

Go back to tubes, if you are going to have the shop do this it's not going to be worth your time and money, especially right now, and especially with road.

There are so many things that can and do go wrong the only way to truly be happy with it is to be in control of everything and do it all yourself.

The shop could have had the sealant on the shelf for a long time after opening it

The sealant may not have been properly shaken

The valve core they selected may not match up perfectly with your rim

The tire might be a mismatch with your rim

It goes on and on...

Oh and the sealant will eat away at the rim & valve over time too.

When everything is done perfectly the sealant should be like magic and you shouldn't even know you punctured.. at least if the tire pressure is not too high.

All the hassle is way more worth it when you're running 30psi or less on MTB tires. Road is a total different thing.

If you're going to do this with a shop concierge style you need to make sure you have a phenomenal shop/mechanic that you can really trust.

I had 10+ years of near zero hassle & zero flats on the road/trail with my MTB just all come crashing to a halt and had to put that bike back on tubes.. combination of not being able to get exactly the right replacement valve, new tires not seeming to work exactly right, and old rims finally getting eaten away a bit around the valve hole from years of sealant. I wasted hours and hours and multiple online orders of parts before I gave up and admitted the rims were done with tubeless.

[dumbod]

(In my best Rod Serling voice) For your consideration.

In retrospect, I only noticed the tack because the head was hitting the seat stay. (It was one of those big decorative upholstery tacks.) I didn't really notice it but the tire may not have been losing much air. So, the sealant may have sealed correctly around tack and I inadvertently broke that seal when I pulled the tack out, when the wheel was at the top of its rotation naturally, it created a hole that the sealant couldn't fill fast enough. Given a little time once I got home, the sealant was able to fill the hole.

Does that make any sense?

Side note to AngryScientist, thanks for the condescending lesson. No, I wasn't able to change this tire but it's the first time I haven't been able to change one in over 25 years of serious riding. So I own up to failing on this occasion, can you own up to being a....

[Andy340]

Was the sealant blue?

I ask because I changed from Stans to Bontrager sealant a months back. Had a puncture 2 weekends ago and Bontrager ( blue fluid) would not seal hole despite positioning wheel with puncture toward ground. It looked like the fluid was too thin to seal (was shaken well before application) and the particles dried into what looked like fine glitter.

The Bontrager sealant was great at sealing the tire to rim (no leak) but failed me on sealing this puncture (and caused a mess at BB junction / fr derailleur area) - Going to try Stans Race formula next.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Don't get your feelings hurt. It sounds like you have a lot of riding and maintenance experience. But, this is a new set of things to learn and you need to bone up the ins and outs.

He's right about the channel in tubeless rims. You've got to break the seal on both beads then push/sqeeze them both into that channel in order to pull a portion of one bead over the rim wall and get a lever under it.

No joke, though, if you need your tires 85psi or higher you should probably stick with tubes. FWIW, manufacturers often give different pressures for being setup with tubes and being setup tubeless.

The Bontrager sealant was great at sealing the tire to rim (no leak) but failed me on sealing this puncture (and caused a mess at BB junction / fr derailleur area) - Going to try Stans Race formula next.

Why not Orange Seal? Does anyone complain about Orange Seal Endurance?

[AngryScientist]

Side note to AngryScientist, thanks for the condescending lesson...

my sincere apology if you found my commend condescending. i was just trying to be constructive.

cheers.

[Andy340]

Haven’t tried orange seal - worth a shot!
Thanks

[MikeD]

So I have a new set of Hed Ardennes with Giant tubeless tires. I was on a ride yesterday and pickup up a tack in my rear tire. It was hitting the frame, so I pulled the tack and the tire immediately deflated. I tried to reinflate using a CO2 and the hole wouldn't seal. I had a tube but couldn't get the tire to unseat from the rim. (That's a whole different issue.)



So my question is this: should I have let the wheel sit (hole facing down) for a time to let the sealant set or was I just SOL?



Thanks.


You don't want to use CO2 with latex sealant. It dries out the sealant. I'm not sure if that contributed to your problem or not though, but maybe. And yes, you should have the hole at the bottom to allow it to seal.

[MikeD]

Go back to tubes, if you are going to have the shop do this it's not going to be worth your time and money, especially right now, and especially with road.

There are so many things that can and do go wrong the only way to truly be happy with it is to be in control of everything and do it all yourself.

The shop could have had the sealant on the shelf for a long time after opening it

The sealant may not have been properly shaken

The valve core they selected may not match up perfectly with your rim

The tire might be a mismatch with your rim

It goes on and on...

Oh and the sealant will eat away at the rim & valve over time too.

When everything is done perfectly the sealant should be like magic and you shouldn't even know you punctured.. at least if the tire pressure is not too high.

All the hassle is way more worth it when you're running 30psi or less on MTB tires. Road is a total different thing.

If you're going to do this with a shop concierge style you need to make sure you have a phenomenal shop/mechanic that you can really trust.

I had 10+ years of near zero hassle & zero flats on the road/trail with my MTB just all come crashing to a halt and had to put that bike back on tubes.. combination of not being able to get exactly the right replacement valve, new tires not seeming to work exactly right, and old rims finally getting eaten away a bit around the valve hole from years of sealant. I wasted hours and hours and multiple online orders of parts before I gave up and admitted the rims were done with tubeless.


Sealant with ammonia in it will corrode unprotected aluminum. Orange Seal, for example, doesn't have ammonia in it.

[benb]

Right.. but over time the protection will wear off and/or the sealant will get in somewhere unprotected. It happens, it's a liquid being forced into every place it can flow by air pressure and the whole system is subject to penetration by dirt & dust and such.

Oh and of course the other gigantic reason not to use tubeless if you're paying the shop to do all your work is the whole need to refresh the sealant.

The guy who gets the shop to change his tires can ride until the tires are worn out before having to go get the shop to put new tires on. For most of us you can't ignore tubeless tires till the tires are worn out, you have to open it up and add more sealant from time to time, it could be quite a few times before the tires wear out. At shop rates if it was a bike that wasn't daily ridden that could rack up a serious cost, the sealant dries out at about the same rate whether the bike is being ridden or not, whereas the tires don't really wear while the bike is in the garage.

[Jaybee]

Right.. but over time the protection will wear off and/or the sealant will get in somewhere unprotected. It happens, it's a liquid being forced into every place it can flow by air pressure and the whole system is subject to penetration by dirt & dust and such.

Oh and of course the other gigantic reason not to use tubeless if you're paying the shop to do all your work is the whole need to refresh the sealant.

The guy who gets the shop to change his tires can ride until the tires are worn out before having to go get the shop to put new tires on. For most of us you can't ignore tubeless tires till the tires are worn out, you have to open it up and add more sealant from time to time, it could be quite a few times before the tires wear out. At shop rates if it was a bike that wasn't daily ridden that could rack up a serious cost, the sealant dries out at about the same rate whether the bike is being ridden or not, whereas the tires don't really wear while the bike is in the garage.

You may be referring to this already, but the easiest way to top off sealant is with a removable valve core and a syringe. Don't break the bead to do this. Make sure you shake the sealant bottle well before loading the syringe so you get the solid components suspended in the solution.

It's hard for me to imagine having a shop do this - it is so easy.

[vqdriver]

Agree that going thru the core is best option for topping off. I'll add tho, that when I went to change a tire for which I had "topped off" a few times I was surprised at the gunk in there. The snotty mess was a testament to its ability to seal as well as it drying out. Cleaned it all off and the tire was noticeably lighter. Not a lot, but noticeable.
Cleaning the rim was not a fun afternoon. Damn, stans smells

[vqdriver]

in this case there's really 2 issues. Failure to seal (primary fix), and inability to break the bead seal (secondary option).
Theres straight up gorilla arm tire/rim combos even for tubed setups. I'd venture that tubeless is probably more as I find it disconcerting when it's too easy actually. You can really wrangle a mtb tire. But with a smaller tire profile and narrower rim, i find it entirely possible that a cx/road tire is near impossible to unseat by hand when new.

I don't think the op needs to give up on tubeless tech, I know I've benefited from it. But for sure I'd remove and repeat it at home a couple times just to acquaint myself and at the least work that bead a bit. Theres tricks to loosen it up if you want.
I don't think op is the type to turn to lbs for every problem. But if they set it up I'd let them deal with this one.

(In my best Rod Serling voice) For your consideration.

In retrospect, I only noticed the tack because the head was hitting the seat stay. (It was one of those big decorative upholstery tacks.) I didn't really notice it but the tire may not have been losing much air. So, the sealant may have sealed correctly around tack and I inadvertently broke that seal when I pulled the tack out, when the wheel was at the top of its rotation naturally, it created a hole that the sealant couldn't fill fast enough. Given a little time once I got home, the sealant was able to fill the hole.

Does that make any sense?

Side note to AngryScientist, thanks for the condescending lesson. No, I wasn't able to change this tire but it's the first time I haven't been able to change one in over 25 years of serious riding. So I own up to failing on this occasion, can you own up to being a....

[ColonelJLloyd]

Damn, stans smells

True. I feel like I must be missing something. Before I tried tubeless years ago I read a bunch and asked folks and settled on Orange Seal. It's all I've ever used on my own bikes and I've wanted for nothing. I don't know if it's marketing or there are other sealants better for specific uses, but I sorta don't get why everyone doesn't just use Orange Seal Endurance.

[vqdriver]

My answer is laziness.
Wheels came with stans and I was too lazy to clean it out and change. For the ones I set up, stans is just what I have in my garage for the reason mentioned above.
Its not failed to seal for me so other than the stink, no compelling reason

[ColonelJLloyd]

While I would probably do it because it has ammonia in it, it's my understanding that you don't need to clean out the Stan's in order to switch to Orange Seal. You can top off with Orange Seal and continue on once you run out of Stan's.

[vqdriver]

hm.. not to completely derail the thread, but what does ammonia do the the tire/rim? Aluminum vs carbon rims make a difference? Fwiw, i haven't noticed any chemical reactions going on in there...

[ColonelJLloyd]

hm.. not to completely derail the thread, but what does ammonia do the the tire/rim? Aluminum vs carbon rims make a difference? Fwiw, i haven't noticed any chemical reactions going on in there...

My understanding is that it's moderately basic/alkaline and will corrode aluminum alloys over time. Shouldn't negatively affect the tire.

[unterhausen]

You may be referring to this already, but the easiest way to top off sealant is with a removable valve core and a syringe. Don't break the bead to do this. Make sure you shake the sealant bottle well before loading the syringe so you get the solid components suspended in the solution.
I pour the sealant I'm going to use into a measuring cup. It turns out that luer lock syringes without a needle fit perfectly into a presta valve stem (core removed). It takes a few minutes to put sealant in this way with a large syringe. I can't imagine paying someone to do this unless I was taking the bike to a shop for something else wheel related.