What is the advantage of newer wheels vs. older ones (90s era).

[erick_e]

I'm a new member here.

I used to cycle a lot in my youth (late 80s-early90s) but haven't ridden much since then, except for an occasional ride on a trainer. In the mid 90's I started to build a few bikes in hopes for my return to cycling, but it never panned out as planned. Around 2014 I also planned a return to cycling, but it didn't work out either due to some surgery's.

So. Here I am today, wanting to get back into cycling in my late 40s.

In 2014 I started to build a Giant Defy Advanced with Dura Ace 7900 Di2 components. However, I never updated the wheelset. The wheel set that I currently have are from the early 90s. Build is Mavic Reflex SUP, 32 spoke DT 14g, Shimano Ultegra 600 10 speed.

Current wheels weight is 912 grams (front) and 1098 grams (rear). Not bad considering these were top of line 25 years ago.

So. I'm wondering what the value in upgrading to a newer wheel set is?

I'm a large guy (230lbs), so combinations I'm considering considering are NOX composite 55Rs, DT RR511, and Mavic Open Pro UST with Dura Ace 9000 hubs.

Thanks.

[robt57]

So. I'm wondering what the value in upgrading to a newer wheel set is?

Wider stronger rims asymmetrical [rear] that fit wider tire for better stability and ride for a Clyde.

IMO, at your weight, targeting a weight loss benefit for your wheels should not be exploited too far.

That said, plenty of 1600-ish gram wheel builds be fine. I was 236lb in 2018, now 198. I have wheels I avoided using then I use now FWIW.

I'd stay about 24 spoke front and 28 spoke rear, and used DB not straight ga. spokes.

[Gummee]

IMO stick with 32/32 or maybe 28/32 wheels till you're 200ish.

Heavy guys on lightweight wheels are a bad combo

M

[m_sasso]

What is better about new wheels:
1.) stronger rims, spokes, and axels
2.) less maintenance surface coatings
3.) reduced bearing service requirements
4.) weigh less
5.) more aero dynamic under multiple wind directions
6.) support greater number of gears
7.) better braking surfaces under changing weather conditions

A start, the features I find improved in new wheels, confident plenty of posts will add to the list.

[zzy]

At 230lbs, aside from the benefit of wider rims and lower pressures, virtually none. 32h rims are great for heavier riders and lighter wheels aren't worth the trade offs in your case. Just get the biggest tires your frame will fit.

[mj_michigan]

You could go down to about 1600g with 32/32 or 28/32 spoke wheels.
I never had any problems with my Campy set with 18/24, even though I weigh 200lb. They held up well, but my other, higher spoke wheels are noticeably more laterally rigid. Anyway, I preferred those so my newest set, just received, still in the box, is 28/32 HED Belgium C2s.

[Hindmost]

Your current wheels, as old as they are, aren't that far from a good pair of utility wheels. I have got wheels that are essentially the same but with the next generation rim.

One path might be to ride what you got and look for some tires that you like. There's a lot to be said for the larger size tires and playing with pressures. With a little riding experience you might be able to decide on a wheel upgrade or heck even a bike upgrade (all the kids want disc brakes and mondo tires).

[aingeru]

I tried many wheelsets over the years and to me 36x3 front and rear tubulars feel the "best". Dura ace modern hubs with Mavic GP4.

[weisan]

At 230lbs, aside from the benefit of wider rims and lower pressures, virtually none. 32h rims are great for heavier riders and lighter wheels aren't worth the trade offs in your case. Just get the biggest tires your frame will fit.

I am 155 Ibs...and I subscribe to

32h rims are great

get the biggest tires your frame will fit

Don't over-inflate your tires.

[oldpotatoe]

Wider stronger rims asymmetrical [rear] that fit wider tire for better stability and ride for a Clyde.

IMO, at your weight, targeting a weight loss benefit for your wheels should not be exploited too far.

That said, plenty of 1600-ish gram wheel builds be fine. I was 236lb in 2018, now 198. I have wheels I avoided using then I use now FWIW.

I'd stay about 24 spoke front and 28 spoke rear, and used DB not straight ga. spokes.

Why on earth a wheelset with 12 less spokes for a gent that's 230 pounds? 12 spokes weigh about 3 ounces and unless the rim is WAY HEAVY, at least 32/32 on a decent rim, like DT511, would be way more reliable.

BUT, for the OP, newer rims are made better, are more modern profiles and materials. BUT, no such thing as a free lunch. Light rim, too few spokes, thin spokes and 3 strikes, kinda thing. AND, saving 300 grams on a wheelset(1900g->1600g) would really mean nothing in terms of your cycling performance. Yu 'may' see a difference with a wheelset that's 1200 grams or so but that means carbon and that means $$..Even at that, the gains are marginal.

Performance with wheels are more tied to whether or not they work, don't break rather than real 'performance' gains.

[nighthawk]

If you are finding many obstacles that are preventing you from getting back into riding, I wouldn’t let your wheels being perfect/ideal be one of those obstacles. Use what you have, throw a leg over it and go as far as you feel like. Once inspired and enjoying your time on a bike again, that’s a better time to start thinking about upgrades.

[lookout2015]

If you are finding many obstacles that are preventing you from getting back into riding, I wouldn’t let your wheels being perfect/ideal be one of those obstacles. Use what you have, throw a leg over it and go as far as you feel like. Once inspired and enjoying your time on a bike again, that’s a better time to start thinking about upgrades.

Agreed

But if you do just want to have new wheels now, because hey who doesn’t like new wheels?

Campagnolo Zondas with a Shimano freehub might be a good new set for you now. Cheap, reasonably light (1550 g for a set? Something like that), durable, a bit more modern than what you have now without being so wide you’ll have frame fit issues, and let you play with tubeless if you’re so inclined....

[benb]

If your wheels are reliable there's not a whole lot of benefit to buy new ones.

I weigh 50lbs less than you and I've gotten speeches from shops/wheelbuilders not to go too light on my daily wheels too, including not using the Open Pro rim vs one of the taller section/heavier Mavic rims.

The set of 32h wheels I have that came on my cheapest bike are the most reliable wheels I've had in the last 20 years.

Pretty much every 1500-1600g wheelset (other than Mavic) I've had I crack the rim on the rear wheel by 20k miles. That said I can definitely feel the difference climbing.

Your wallet could get a lot lighter and you might think you bike looks a lot cooler if you spend enough.

Aero is marginal unless you get really fit. Even the most aero expensive wheels are not saving much if you're not fit enough to a) go fast and b) hold an aggressive riding position. If you don't have b) the aero losses dwarf aero wheel & frame benefits.

For a 1500-1600g wheelset that looks cool and doesn't break the bank I've been decently happy with Mavic's offerings. They're easy to find and easy to find someone who can work on them. At least at my weight range they've been reliable and don't go out of true much if at all. Their weakness IMO is often nipples that don't last long enough if they see bad weather. Usually I'd compare against wheels built with Shimano Hubs, IMO the weakness with a wheelset with Shimano hubs is they are way more likely to be incompatible with whatever Shimano comes up with next in terms of groupsets. Almost every wheelset I've had with Shimano hubs has lasted long enough it impeded me from moving up to the latest and greatest Shimano thing when the rest of the groupset was toast and the wheels had 10s of thousands of miles of life left in them.

[wallymann]

What is better about new wheels:
6.) support greater number of gears


fwiw...all my 130mm freehubs support 8 thru 12 speeds.

[redir]

Just the fact that they are 25 years old means they are more likely to break down on you. I still ride old stuff myself but it breaks and you jsut have to deal with it. I am 200-210 lbs on any given day and trust me you want strong wheels. 32 spoke minimum. Don't be tempted to get light weight wheels unless you race and only use them on race day. And even then, you travel to the race, stay in a hotel, pay your race entry fees and break a spoke in the first 5 miles. It's still not worth it.

Been there done all that!

[benb]

Something that is old and has proven itself to be reliable should not be assumed to be less reliable than something new, at least not in wheels IMO.

Lots of novel new wheel designs seem to have design issues that classic designs didn't have. The new designs are pushed for novelty & sales, not for being substantial engineering improvements.

The old wheel might need hub/bearing work but it's proven itself to have balanced tension, not go out of true, etc.. a new wheel has not proven that.

[robt57]

A possible suggestion might be 2 set of wheels. A lighter set, and a slightly beefier set. Lets say 1400 and 1700 grams. Lighter wheels with climbing cassette, lighter tires, and other wheels for off season and maybe long rides with more flat resistant tires were you are less than close to home.

Our yearly fast 1.8 century had some rules. Low count spoke wheels not allowed, and an extra tire and a few spokes strongly suggested with the warning you break down you gotta wait for the follow up vehicle that would take us all home as it was not an out and back. We were always shooting for a lower avg time for the 180 miles, so you'd be on your own on the side of the road if you broke down.

When you have one pair of shoes, you wear than out faster than wearing 2 pairs. Work boots an lightweight runners?

As far as old wheels go, eventually a spoke will pop quite possibly. When were they trued last, and how uniform is the spoke tension etc.

They gotta wear down sooner or later. You may be closer to a spoke failure, or may well be into to thin/worn breaking surface already as to be safe ultimately, even compared to a lighter modern wheelset.

[b33]

What a lot of other people have already said. I will add this.

Newer wheels have not reinvented the wheel. I have data on my 4 years doing a 10k TT. I used 50mm aero, 35mm aero, tubular, tubeless, clincher, bora, ENVE the list goes on. My 32 spoke nemesis with silver record hubs and tubular tires did just fine as well. And they ride way nicer than the aforementioned.

[erick_e]

Wow. Thanks to everyone for all the responses.

My thoughts were that I have a newer bike with top of the line components but have this ancient wheelset, and was wondering if there was any point in upgrading to more modern technology.

When I upgrade my wheels, it ill be soon- I just ordered some new DA hubs, I'll certainly stick with a 32 spoke and probably start another thread about my wheel selection selection. But for now, I'll just ride on these and see how they hold up.

[Gummee]

Wow. Thanks to everyone for all the responses.

My thoughts were that I have a newer bike with top of the line components but have this ancient wheelset, and was wondering if there was any point in upgrading to more modern technology.

When I upgrade my wheels, it ill be soon- I just ordered some new DA hubs, I'll certainly stick with a 32 spoke and probably start another thread about my wheel selection selection. But for now, I'll just ride on these and see how they hold up.
Till I went 11sp, my favorite pair of wheels was an ancient pair of Mavic 571/2 hubbed + Mavic Reflex wheels. Kept going round and round for a coupla decades. Someone out there is still likely riding them.

M

[booglebug]

Kinda like a 42 mile ride with with 4200 feet of climbing, my 2 fastest times was on a 21lb steel bike with 1800 gram wheels vs 2 Ti 17lb ti bikes with 1500 gram wheels

[fogrider]

The main difference is stronger and lighter...okay, I'm gonna say it: carbon rims and tubeless tires. What width tires can your bike take? My older bikes max out at 25mm, seems like everyone likes wider...28, 30, even 32mm. if you want speed, go aero, deep dish also looks cool! Lighter rims means the bike just handles better. Will any of this make you go faster? it just depends on you!

[maslow]

...28/32 HED Belgium C2s.


This

[picstloup]

hi Erik, thanks for bringing this up...something i've been thinking about as i prepare to return to 'normal' cycling next week...the 1 kilometer from home rule goes away monday here in france...yay!

so like i have some questions, thoughts...

what about Campagnolo zondas? are they heavy duty enough, do they have enough spokes to handle 225 lbs. of weight for every day rides? 16 spokes up front, 21 rear...i don't know...maybe great for the under 190 lb riders?

or Ritchey WCS Zeta wheels? also, relatively low spoke count, but their literature talks about j bend spokes being more robust than straight pull...just marketing? 20 up front, 24 rear, seems pretty minimal...

considering these two wheel sets to go along with a new campy chorus 12s group i'm thinking to buy i a few months...if my rides get better longer, as planned thinking to buy myself a new ride for my 65th birthday ;-) so, no racing for me, just relatively easy, fun filled, pleasure from here on out...

I don't see max weights listed for these two like mavic does. mavic lists 120 kilos as a max weight including the bike weight for a number of their wheels, i've only checked aluminum and rim brake...

pre-built wheels bought at a local bike shop...one could talk to the sales people, buy what they recommend, rely on a guarantee and store support to deal with any problems...

not sure who i'd trust to build a set of wheels for me anymore around here...i live in the south of france...it seems like wheel building is a dying art...

i do have older campagnolo 32 hole hubs built up, but like the OP they are old...mine date back to 1994 or thereabouts...on mavic open pro rims...one set with 8 speed chorus that i still use on my steel road bike...one set with record hubs bought around 2000 with 10 speed that are in storage...

at the time, i bought them via mail, excel sports did one set, colorado cyclist did the other...

but back then my max weight was about 188 ibs in winter, down to about 178 in summer...

these days i'm at 230 ibs, never been so heavy...not good...i'm thinking to stick with my old wheels, keep an eye on 'em, and wait till the excess weight comes off before considering new wheels...

these old wheels have held up, but never been ridden with so much weight on 'em...

thoughts?

I mean I have read through all the posts...i see, 32 hole hubs/spokes seems the way to go...i wonder if i could find someone here to build me a set of wheels like in the old days...hey, it's france, there's gotta be somebody building wheels someplace, right? Now I wish I would have been taught how to build wheels all those years ago...

thanks

[lookout2015]

hi Erik, thanks for bringing this up...something i've been thinking about as i prepare to return to 'normal' cycling next week...the 1 kilometer from home rule goes away monday here in france...yay!

so like i have some questions, thoughts...

what about Campagnolo zondas? are they heavy duty enough, do they have enough spokes to handle 225 lbs. of weight for every day rides? 16 spokes up front, 21 rear...i don't know...maybe great for the under 190 lb riders?

or Ritchey WCS Zeta wheels? also, relatively low spoke count, but their literature talks about j bend spokes being more robust than straight pull...just marketing? 20 up front, 24 rear, seems pretty minimal...

considering these two wheel sets to go along with a new campy chorus 12s group i'm thinking to buy i a few months...if my rides get better longer, as planned thinking to buy myself a new ride for my 65th birthday ;-) so, no racing for me, just relatively easy, fun filled, pleasure from here on out...

I don't see max weights listed for these two like mavic does. mavic lists 120 kilos as a max weight including the bike weight for a number of their wheels, i've only checked aluminum and rim brake...


Campy states 109 kg / 240 lb as their advised limit for Zondas. I believe that’s across their aluminum wheel line but it’s definitely in the Zonda literature — just looked at the booklet for mine

[oldpotatoe]

the main difference is stronger and lighter...okay, i'm gonna say it: carbon tubular rims and tubular tires. What width tires can your bike take? My older bikes max out at 25mm, seems like everyone likes wider...28, 30, even 32mm. If you want speed, go aero, deep dish also looks cool! Lighter rims means the bike just handles better. Will any of this make you go faster? It just depends on you!

fify->:)

[picstloup]

Campy states 109 kg / 240 lb as their advised limit for Zondas. I believe that’s across their aluminum wheel line but it’s definitely in the Zonda literature — just looked at the booklet for mine

thanks for this...i looked on the campy website and couldn't find anything...

m

[mtechnica]

Our yearly fast 1.8 century had some rules. Low count spoke wheels not allowed,

:rolleyes:

[mtechnica]

Just because wheels have 32 spokes doesn't mean they're strong. I've had plenty of wheels that were on random used bikes I've bought fall apart because the rim was flimsy, it doesn't matter how many spokes it has. The zondas are almost cetainly stronger than most thin rimmed 32 spoke wheels of yore. Being 200lbs on them is fine unless you ride like a gorilla and slam over every crack and hole. Just use 25-28c tires at a reasonable pressure. Also look at the sciroccos which have an even deeper and heavier rim. Good luck breaking a scirocco.

[b33]

Remco is part of a large crash more than 50k from the finish. ROVAL wheel breaks. Shimano neutral support gives him a box section rear wheel.

Remco mounts the bike and drops everyone. Everyone else had aero wheels. :banana:

[erick_e]

thanks for this...i looked on the campy website and couldn't find anything...

m

I didn't see it on their website either. It's in the user manual to download at the bottom.

Over 240Lbs is a no-go. 180-240Lbs requires vigilance.

[martl]

What is better about new wheels:
1.) stronger rims, spokes, and axels
2.) less maintenance surface coatings
3.) reduced bearing service requirements
4.) weigh less
5.) more aero dynamic under multiple wind directions
6.) support greater number of gears
7.) better braking surfaces under changing weather conditions

A start, the features I find improved in new wheels, confident plenty of posts will add to the list.

I tend to disagree a bit. Rims became stronger in the aftermath of the first boutique aero wheels (shamal, Cosmic) which happened in the mid 90ies. Spokes? Cx ray or DT 2.0/1.8/2.0 are up there with the best the current market has to offer (does it have anything better?) there is only so much you can do with steel which still is the best option.

Weight? Using really good parts, the best conventionally built wheelset available 1998 were 1400g-ish, one would have to spend serious money today to beat that and several parts would be proprietory.

The bearings were as durable then as they are now. Again, steel on steel. Later 1990 rims had machined surfaces and the "anodizing" fashion was over, they brake perfectly.

So what remains are the disc option and the option to go bigger than 10spd.