Titanium Bike: Firefly, Others?

[Sawas]

Hi everyone,
I'm about to pull the trigger on my first high end titanium frame. I've researched pretty much all the big and small names in ti manufacturing. I was drawn to Firefly because of their construction quality, the anodized finish, tapered headtube, and lifetime warranty BUT their turnaround is over a year. Are there any other alternatives I should consider?


Thank you

[Mike V]

Look at No22

[bob heinatz]

Bingham!

[nmrt]

Moots also does anodization also not to the same degree as Firefly.
No 22 has a 10 yr warranty.

[nmrt]

Bingham (as good as he is) does not do anodization. OP wants that, I think.

Bingham!

[Tony T]

If you want it now, take a look at Moots.
(I have a Firefly. Great bike, great builders. Wait was 6 months when I got mine years ago)

[fignon's barber]

Legend by Bertoletti. A member on here, Elite Velo, can help you through the process.

[Sawas]

I've taken a look at Bingham. I never asked for a quote at this point.
I've also taken a look at No 22. Initially the 10yr warranty threw me off but actually, they have a very good product...

[arimajol]

I've got my eye on 333Fab. Seven's not a bad choice either. No 22. I guess anything with a number?

[Andy sti]

What a rabbit hole!

Custom or stock geo?

Alliance and Desalvo would be at the top of my list. All depends on what you want. Not all are the same. Different ideas about geo and fit. Do you want a "team" or a single person building your bike?

Kish
Bingham
Moots
No22
Strong
etc.....

[Coffee Rider]

https://www.pedalinobicycles.com/
Some beautiful work.

[cp43]

Seven also makes great Ti bikes: https://www.sevencycles.com/

Chris

[cmg]

Alternatives? there's plenty, Moots, Seven, Independent Fabrication, No.22 Here's a list https://www.roadbikerider.com/titanium-bike-brand-list/ But if you go to the production folder you can do a search for production Ti bikes

[nmrt]

if you want it "now", get a Moots or a Seven.
Case closed.
Bingham, Desalvo, Strong, FF, No22 all have a waitlist of 8-54 weeks. A Seven could be had in six weeks and I think even sooner for Moots?

[Sawas]

if you want it "now", get a Moots or a Seven.
Case closed.
Bingham, Desalvo, Strong, FF, No22 all have a waitlist of 8-54 weeks. A Seven could be had in six weeks and I think even sooner for Moots?

I mean, I could wait ~3 months for something nice. The FF 13-15 months is just not reasonable I think.

[nmrt]

talk to the builders. See who "speaks" to you. Analyze ease of working with builder, the product, the price, timeline and choose one. Of the ones listed in this thread, you really cannot pick one builder who is better than others in their craft.

Then make a deposit! :banana:

I mean, I could wait ~3 months for something nice. The FF 13-15 months is just not reasonable I think.

[Black Dog]

T-Lab

[dbnm]

Alchemy is building a bike for me right now. They have a sale of $1000 off until May 1. I think the current wait time is 8 weeks.

https://alchemybicycles.com/

[Mike V]

Lifetime warranty to me doesn't mean much anymore.

My Merlin has a lifetime warranty but I can't find anyone to homer it.

[Sawas]

T-Lab

I actually looked very very closely at t-lab initially. They have the shaped tubing on their bikes. I haven't ridden one and there isn't really information on what if any benefit there is to the shaped tubing. Aside from that, they look attractive.

[Mike V]

Potts

[Tony T]

I mean, I could wait ~3 months for something nice. The FF 13-15 months is just not reasonable I think.

Reasonable when compared to the wait for a Sachs (when he was taking orders ;))

But, yeah, I see your point. Glad found out about Firefly when I did 8 yrs ago (FF134]

[CTracer]

I have had a Moots and I currently have a No 22. Can't go wrong with either but I prefer the No 22. Once you start looking at FF, Seven, No 22, Mosaic, Moots, etc. you are splitting hairs a bit. All are going to be great but you just need to find which one pushes your buttons. Always fun working on a new project!!

[Sawas]

Reasonable when compared to the wait for a Sachs (when he was taking orders ;)

But, yeah, I see your point. Glad found out about them when I did 8 yrs ago (FF134]

So are you still happy with your bike after all these years?

[dbnm]

I suspect 22 now has a sizable wait time since they ran their sale last month.

Beautiful bikes and as mentioned, what do you want the most?

[mistermo]

I believe Mosaic has a 6 wk wait. Alliance can also do it somewhat quickly, I believe.

[Tony T]

So are you still happy with your bike after all these years?

Absolutely. Doesn’t seem like 8 years, surprised myself when I looked up when I bought it. I remember that FF guys were great to work with.
Back then, Moots was my 2nd choice.

[JonB]

Check out Kualis cycles from Japan. Looks like he got his start @ Seven Cycles and has since moved to Japan.

I've been following his work on Instagram for a few years and there's some impressive welding, anodizing and paint.


http://www.kualiscycles.com

[nmrt]

I have a No22. It is a great bike.

If I were to get a different bike, I would go with a builder who would customize the bike (tubes, butting diameter etc) for my weight and riding style especially when there is no price difference between a true custom builder (Bingham, Strong, DeSalvo) and stock or semi-custom (Moots, No22, T-Lab etc). Of course I realize that Moots, No22, and T-lab can be had custom but they mostly deal with stock sizes and charge more for custom.

Again, nothing wrong at all with stock builders. I love my No22! It is just that i would like a different bike building experience second time around, meaning working with a custom bike builder. :-)


So are you still happy with your bike after all these years?

[buddybikes]

Where do you live? Can you visit FF (after Covid) to get a fitting in house?

This was my decision back in 2015. They saw me ride my old bike, got me up on their serotta? machine and manipulated. I didn't go with trends on tubing sizes and such (have std size head tube). This whole thing made easier than sending drawings back and forth continually. I actually went in twice, once for initial sizing and once right before the build.
I also went with FF for personal long term connection in Boston area.

this is what they built me (was their 3rd? carbon/ti) (wheels different and the made me seatpost with anodizing not shown. Personally I think it is the prettiest seat stay arrangement that I have ever seen: https://www.flickr.com/photos/fireflybicycles/sets/72157636160361504/

[cmb5286]

Just posted this a couple weeks ago. Some great builders in here.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=249926

[Mikej]

Bingham is going to offer a tapered head tube.

[sparky33]

Bingham bikes are definitely in that top shelf category of custom ti, alongside Firefly etc.

Having had a couple Firefly(s) and a Bingham, I'd say that the design, fabrication, detail and customer service are equally excellent. Pricing is roughly similar for a normal ti frame/fork. They both ride amazing.
Bingham has a smaller menu of finishing options and fewer custom options but also has a much shorter turn around (8 weeks v 1 year).

Can't really go wrong with either of those...

I've taken a look at Bingham. I never asked for a quote at this point.

[zetroc]

http://www.hampsten.com

[David in Maine]

I chose Seven because I could visit Ride Studio Cafe and get an in-person fitting and lots of guidance throughout the custom process. They also set up a demo bike with my new position changes and I was able to take a nice long ride. This greatly helped my confidence in pulling the trigger and signing off on the design. I couldn't be more thrilled with the result--the bike has been a revelation for me.

David

[NHAero]

I bought a Firefly here on the PL used and it's the nicest bike I've ever had. I wouldn't think that warranty would matter much in buying a bike from one of the builders listed here, and my reasoning is that they hardly ever break, and most of these folks would fix it, period, warranty or not, if the company is still around.

[StanleySteamer]

Check out T-Lab if you want a road/gravel disc bike. You can also take advantage of the weak Canadian dollar. Very competitive product at a great price.

[donevwil]

So many worthy builders. I would suggest one close enough to visit, nothing like an in person meet and discuss to start things on the right path. Also any shipping charges and associated shipping concerns, be it parts for the build or finished goods to you, will be significantly reduced.

[ciclista_tifoso]

.


Went through this process recently, ultimately went with a No22 Drifter X (without the integrated seatpost); couldn't pass up their recent sale.
I also considered Mosaic (which had the shortest wait time - about 3-4 weeks as of earlier this month), Moots, Firefly, etc.

Can't go wrong with any of the options listed here, though ultimately it will depend on which builder calls out to you the most.

.

[morrisericd]

Wow Steve (?), that's a beautiful Firefly! They really are doing some special stuff over there.

I would echo all the above and say that if it were me, it would come down to who I could visit and build a relationship with. My first real bike was a Seven that was built for me. I've also had a Mosaic, and two Moots. Fit and relationship are the most important. Any of these guys will build you a sweet bike.

Another thought is to try out a couple of different bikes - maybe even buy a few used bikes on here and ride them and see what you think. Really, tires and wheels and fit are going to make more of a difference than almost anything.

For fit - it's amazing how it changes over time. My Seven was built for me - custom fitted and all that - about 20 years ago. When I ride it now, it's way too upright - almost no drop. It's just where I was at that point in my life.

I just picked up a Speedvagen that wasn't made for me but might have well been. It's changed what I think about steel. I cannot believe how much it wants to go fast - it's a race bike for sure, but still fine for 3-4 hours of riding. If I were going custom now, I would use this current bike as inspiration.

Good luck and enjoy the journey!

[Johnnysmooth]

Personally I think it is the prettiest seat stay arrangement that I have ever seen: https://www.flickr.com/photos/fireflybicycles/sets/72157636160361504/

That is one gorgeous bike
And I always thought my Colnago C60 in the 2015 dark blue color way was the prettiest bike ever. S
Actually still is, but this FF is a damn close second.

[veloduffer]

I currently have a Seven, Moots and Eriksen. I’ve also owned Lynskey, Kish, Spectrum. They all work well.

Kish is probably the best value and Jim is easy to work with. Top notch quality as probably taught a number of current to builders since he taught at UBI. You can also get your bike painted. Check his gallery.

Brad Bingham was the main builder for Eriksen and took over since Kent retired. I think his welding is often considered almost unparalleled since his raw finish matches any one who has their welds bead blasted. He consistently wins best TIG weld at NAHBS. He does the work for Hampton Cycles too.

Seven has tons of sizes as stock, so custom is almost built in. I’ve owned an Axiom and now own an Evergreen graveler.

Moots uncharges for anything custom. Nice bikes but I think they’re overpriced. I’ve owned 3 Moots.

I think the best values are Bingham and Kish for custom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bob Ross]

My wife got a titanium bike from Carl Strong about 2 years ago, I think the lead time was around 12-16 weeks at the time. I personally have no justifiable use for yet another bike, but when we pulled this thing out of the shipping carton and started looking at the details up close I was like
https://wompampsupport.azureedge.net/fetchimage?siteId=7575&v=2&jpgQuality=100&width=700&url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.kym-cdn.com%2Fentries%2Ficons%2Ffacebook%2F000%2F005%2 F574%2Ftakemymoney.jpg

Her bike is gorgeous!

And Carl is wonderful to deal with (we also have a matching pair of coupled steel road bikes he built for us 10 years ago), a real mensch and a savvy straightforward businessman. Highly recommended.

I know, I sound like a shill... :banana:

[Tony T]

Knew I shouldn’t have opened this thread — Realizing that my FF is 8 years old has me rationalizing that I need a new bike.

I’ve now “followed” a lot of the builders mentioned here in Instagram.


Only a matter of time now



:)

[Sawas]

It would be hard for me to do a custom fitting with most of these guys as none of them are local to me. I'm in SoCal.
I agree that Bingham seems to do a really nice frame. His frames don't have the "flash" that some other do and I just have to see how important that is to me.

[Coffee Rider]

It would be hard for me to do a custom fitting with most of these guys as none of them are local to me. I'm in SoCal.
I agree that Bingham seems to do a really nice frame. His frames don't have the "flash" that some other do and I just have to see how important that is to me.

I would also recommend Holland Cycles since you are in SoCal. While I don't think Holland does anodization in house, you can probably get that handled through someplace like Black Magic Paint.

[joosttx]

I currently have a Seven, Moots and Eriksen. I’ve also owned Lynskey, Kish, Spectrum. They all work well.

Kish is probably the best value and Jim is easy to work with. Top notch quality as probably taught a number of current to builders since he taught at UBI. You can also get your bike painted. Check his gallery.

Brad Bingham was the main builder for Eriksen and took over since Kent retired. I think his welding is often considered almost unparalleled since his raw finish matches any one who has their welds bead blasted. He consistently wins best TIG weld at NAHBS. He does the work for Hampton Cycles too.

Seven has tons of sizes as stock, so custom is almost built in. I’ve owned an Axiom and now own an Evergreen graveler.

Moots uncharges for anything custom. Nice bikes but I think they’re overpriced. I’ve owned 3 Moots.

I think the best values are Bingham and Kish for custom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Excellent summary. I have owned IF (probably the last IF titanium bike made in Boston before the FF/IF split), a Mosaic and a Bingham Built. I have test ridden Moots several times trying to convince myself to buy one. I know nothing about Kish. I have another Bingham Built on order. I like trying new thing and with all these high end titanium builders I cannot go wrong trying something new. My plan was to buy a Seven. However, Bingham Built really did a great job on my MTB that I felt like I was fine getting another one. Best welds in the business and that is just a sign of everything else that Bingham Built bikes is.

[Coffee Rider]

This thread makes me think that with regard to titanium bikes, anyone who is really good at it turns out great bikes.

[Tony T]

It would be hard for me to do a custom fitting with most of these guys as none of them are local to me. I'm in SoCal.
I agree that Bingham seems to do a really nice frame. His frames don't have the "flash" that some other do and I just have to see how important that is to me.

Sometimes the “flash” is a function of the photography.
Anyway, it’s the fit that matters. Have you found a good fitter in SoCal? Some builders can do a “fit” with the use of a form (height, inseam, etc,j but better to have the fit done locally.

[dbnm]

Since you're in SoCal, have you checked out Stinner? They make a titanium bike https://www.stinnerframeworks.com/

If you can get to Portland, you will find a few titanium builders up there as well.

[Dave Ferris]

..

[veloduffer]

This thread makes me think that with regard to titanium bikes, anyone who is really good at it turns out great bikes.


I think part of that is the material. Titanium tubes are expensive and they are not easy to weld - you need experience welding (eg. Working with argon). If you screw up, those tubes cost a lot.

I think the business of custom has progressed much due to the options in tubing - diameter, wall thickness, etc which can all be tapered and manipulated to achieve the right build and ride quality that the customer desires. That’s the hard part of the business - interpreting customer’s wishes, assuming the customer is describing them correctly!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Coffee Rider]

I think part of that is the material. Titanium tubes are expensive and they are not easy to weld - you need experience welding (eg. Working with argon). If you screw up, those tubes cost a lot.

I think the business of custom has progressed much due to the options in tubing - diameter, wall thickness, etc which can all be tapered and manipulated to achieve the right build and ride quality that the customer desires. That’s the hard part of the business - interpreting customer’s wishes, assuming the customer is describing them correctly!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I think a good Ti bike is just inherently beautiful. Maybe also the beauty of the finished work is a reflection of the effort that went into it. It's really easy to go down a huge rabbit hole when trying to choose a custom builder because essentially everyone who's doing it is pretty awesome and it can come down to all the other things. FWIW, my current favorite bike is a non-custom Ti.

[choke]

While there are tons of builders who make very nice bikes, these stand at the top of my list for Ti.

Bixxis
333Fab
Potts
Hampsten

[jadedaid]

I’ve had a No22 and currently have a Moots. I think the additional money for the Moots (mine is custom) is well worth it. They were much easier to deal with and personally I prefer the look and ride to the No22. I wouldn’t get another No22 but the chap I sold mine to is very happy with it. I think it’s hard to say here - in part you’re buying into the story/concept as much as the ride because you won’t have a chance to ride the bikes

The Moots is expensive but I would not consider it poor value. The company has been great and the bike is fantastic. They even did a free crash inspection when I kissed a RAV4.

Legend is a company I’m intrigued by, but I prefer more local builders. If I lived in Europe I’d have a look at them.

[polyhistoric]

How is it that Caletti has not come up yet! Super nice guy, incredible under-the radar builds and very thoughful process. Part of a bunch of environmental and trail organizations... my wife loves her Caletti CX bike.

[Tony T]

OP: Brushed or Beaded?

[RoosterCogset]

I will note.. nobody talks about Dean or Merlin any more.. same ownership now, but some interesting stuff.. eg. the Dean Vader ExoGrid, etc..

[pdmtong]

When NAHBS was in Sacramento the time before the last time, there must have been 20+ titanium builders showing road/gravel. It was dizzying. Did it really come down to whose disc mount you liked best?

I'd start more basic
- is my fit uncommon?
- am i looking for custom detailing in the fabrication (mounts, holes, etc.)?
- am I looking for a particular finish aesthetic?
So these may rule out some builders (particularly Moots, which is GREAT for stock but once non-stock it's either really expensive or they won't do it. I say this having owned and loved riding a Moots CR)

No doubt FF makes a great frame and it is easy to be seduced by the glam shots but they are not the only ones making beautiful ti. That said, if you want FF get FF. Tyler and Jamie and Kevin know what they are doing.

When I spoke to Brad Bingham at NAHBS what struck me was how enthused he was about not only building straightforward road or mtb frames but also the weird or insane frame - like a fishing bike.

That's how Sacha was in the early days of Vanilla.

Speaking of TVW: FULL CUSTOM Titanium Starting at $6900.00
New for 2020 we are offering custom Titanium completes in our disc models. Rugged Road, Disc Road, or Cyclocross. After nearly 20 years of steel bikes we bring our building techniques and design to a new material. What happens when you mix the ride quality a Speedvagen is known for with the ride quality of Ti? Theres only one way to find out.
Includes:
Custom geometry designed from the ground up to match your fit coordinates
Speedvagen’s own new Titanium Tubing
Paint with peek-a-boos to raw titanium
Custom machined head tube with brushed stainless headbadge
Integrated Enve Carbon fiber seatmast with brushed stainless reinforcement
ENVE carbon seatpost head
Enve Fork.
T47 BB shell
Flat Mount Thru Axle
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5946c22886e6c05d951c812a/1585161515225-HCYSYY4INNS1XKN5HSBN/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kEOtTRus7ML4ZYZTBK67S_t7gQa3H7 8H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLf rh8O1z5QPOohDIaIeljMHgDF5CVlOqpeNLcJ80NK65_fV7S1Ue MVcDt9KZFQrzlD_DgkLE6YedFX0kz8-slUEEhDVP1tpoYGbiM3Fror6KhIa-trfA/titanium-tuesday.jpg?format=750w

[pdmtong]

How is it that Caletti has not come up yet! Super nice guy, incredible under-the radar builds and very thoughful process. Part of a bunch of environmental and trail organizations... my wife loves her Caletti CX bike.

A friend has a full custom caletti and had an excellent experience through the design and fab and delivery process

[Bob Ross]

It would be hard for me to do a custom fitting with most of these guys as none of them are local to me.

fwiw most of the custom framebuilders I know of have figured out how to do remote/long-distance "custom fits" without compromising the outcome. I own two custom bikes and I've never gotten within 200 miles of either builder...yet the phrase "like a glove" is appropriate.



This thread makes me think that with regard to titanium bikes, anyone who is really good at it turns out great bikes.

I've heard it suggested that titanium is "self-selecting for obsessiveness" ...the folks that build sucky Ti bike frames don't last very long in the industry. All that's left are the folks who excel.

[Buzz Killington]

What type of bike? I think some brands seem better aligned with certain type/style of bike. But, to heck with that, get a Bingham. That’s where my money would go. If I had thousands of dollars laying around and my wife didn’t want a new house with a pool.

[Coffee Rider]

Another builder I like that I believe can do a relatively quick turnaround that hasn't been mentioned is Wittson. https://wittson.com/. You can order direct or through https://blacksmithcycle.com/. I'm not sure what Wittson does in terms of anodization.

[jm714]

I bought a 333fab from Max 5 years ago. Couldn’t be happier with it. I believe he is doing ano work now. If you are in SoCal he’s an easy drive to the Bay Area for a fitting. He’s super down to earth and easy to work with. His prices are fair. Lastly He has welded for Hampsten and I believe he did a long tour with Seven.

[BobC]

I went through this process two years ago & pulled the trigger on a Dean. I wanted a race bike that I could use & abuse. They delivered. Custom bike that fits. 6 week wait. Very reasonable price. I am big fan of Dean.

[JasonF]

Seven seems to be up and running at near full production and currently is promising a 6 week (or less) turnaround from fitting.

Not sure where in SoCal you are, but you could get fit @ Summer Cycles in Del Mar and be riding in no time.

When I ordered my Seven (back in 2014) they had a 'firm' 6 week turnaround. I was riding within 4.

[rst72]

I've also taken a look at No 22. Initially the 10yr warranty threw me off but actually, they have a very good product...

https://22bicycles.com/blogs/news/an-explanation-of-our-10-year-warranty

[Velocipede]

Hi everyone,
I'm about to pull the trigger on my first high end titanium frame. I've researched pretty much all the big and small names in ti manufacturing. I was drawn to Firefly because of their construction quality, the anodized finish, tapered headtube, and lifetime warranty BUT their turnaround is over a year. Are there any other alternatives I should consider?


Thank you

There are a literal TON of titanium frame companies now. In the end, it's what you're comfortable with, and that includes the price, wait time, finish, geometry if you're doing stock and the design/style of frame. Just understand you're going to be slammed with tons of names. I would say 95% are going to be excellent. The occasional goof happens and sometimes someone has a bad experience vs someone who had a great one. So just take all that into account.

In the end, it's up to you and you need to be happy and comfortable. Good luck!

[Jef58]

As a recent recipient of a Bixxis Pathos, my thought process was going with someone who had the same design idea of what I wanted in a bike. I wanted a reflection of a classic Italian race bike with mechanical shifting and limited tire size. It goes against all the trends on this site, but that is what I wanted.

My advice is, look at what you really want the bike to do, and go with someone who will deliver that. No amount of flash or aesthetics will change how the bike feels to you. That said, if I was going to go with someone other than what I did, it would have been Hampsten...(possibly the Strada Bianca), because their bikes function properly. Good luck in the search.

[oldpotatoe]

Hi everyone,
I'm about to pull the trigger on my first high end titanium frame. I've researched pretty much all the big and small names in ti manufacturing. I was drawn to Firefly because of their construction quality, the anodized finish, tapered headtube, and lifetime warranty BUT their turnaround is over a year. Are there any other alternatives I should consider?


Thank you

Moots, but gotta go thru a dealer...

Haven't looked thru all the posts, I'm sure Moots has been mentioned. :)

[AngryScientist]

this thread has me all types of excited.

If we remove the real outliers at the absolute top and bottom end of the price scale - what would you folks say the average price expected to pay for a custom built Ti gravel bike, without excessive add-ons.

is it about $4k? more or less?

[Robot870]

If I had to do it again I would go with Kish. But my Indy ti crown jewel from 2007 just wont quit! Seems to only get better over the years......Good luck!

[CTracer]

this thread has me all types of excited.

If we remove the real outliers at the absolute top and bottom end of the price scale - what would you folks say the average price expected to pay for a custom built Ti gravel bike, without excessive add-ons.

is it about $4k? more or less?

Yes, I think you are right on the money. $4K +/- can get you a nice custom ti gravel/allroad bike.

[herb5998]

Another recommendation for both No22 and Moots, super easy to deal with, great craftsmanship, and some great finish options if that's you're thing

[Velocipede]

this thread has me all types of excited.

If we remove the real outliers at the absolute top and bottom end of the price scale - what would you folks say the average price expected to pay for a custom built Ti gravel bike, without excessive add-ons.

is it about $4k? more or less?

For a full custom ti gravel frame, yes, $4000/4250. Stock, about $3500/3750.

[Matthew]

I'll push the Moots bandwagon too. I have two of them. Over 23k miles on my road bike. Still looks and rides like new. They've been doing ti for what seems like forever. Great folks and products. My other is a 2002 Rigormootis mtb. Only regret is its not a 29er. But it rides great and was refurbished by Moots before I bought it by the seller and looked brand new. But as others have said, so many excellent options to choose from. If money and time were no object I'd look at FF, IF, Moots, and Strong.

[mistermo]

I will note.. nobody talks about Dean or Merlin any more.. same ownership now, but some interesting stuff.. eg. the Dean Vader ExoGrid, etc..

Aren't they owned by Mosaic too?

I had a custom ti frame built about 7-8yrs ago by a builder who's well regarded. It was the worst bike I've owned. Within one mile, I know I wasn't going to keep it. My point is, pick a builder who specializes in ti, doesn't dabble in it, and has produced enough frames to have the process and fit dialed in. Stock geometry works for 90%+ of riders and when you introduce customization, you introduce other variables that can go wrong.

[Velocipede]

Aren't they owned by Mosaic too?

I had a custom ti frame built about 7-8yrs ago by a builder who's well regarded. It was the worst bike I've owned. Within one mile, I know I wasn't going to keep it. My point is, pick a builder who specializes in ti, doesn't dabble in it, and has produced enough frames to have the process and fit dialed in. Stock geometry works for 90%+ of riders and when you introduce customization, you introduce other variables that can go wrong.

Dean and Merlin are owned by John Siegrist. He has always owned Dean and bought Merlin from ABG(Litespeed/QR). Mosaic is its own company.

[merlinmurph]

At this point, Merlin is just a name and has been for awhile.

[Jeff N.]

I'll give a shout out for Holland Cycles.

[Toddykins]

I would preface this by saying I loved my old Moots (cr) and I love my current custom ti - but could someone explain to me in plain english why a stock moots costs significantly more than a full custom from nearly all the tier 1 builders mentioned?

[XXtwindad]

Dean and Merlin are owned by John Siegrist. He has always owned Dean and bought Merlin from ABG(Litespeed/QR). Mosaic is its own company.

I thought John sold the company to Ari. In any case, he is truly a great guy. I've met him several times and was always impressed by how down to earth he is.

I have two Ti bikes (a mtb and gravel bike) by Erik Rolf at Alliance. He has a cult following, and for good reason. No nonsense professionalism. I also picked up a used Firefly and it has totally transformed the way I ride. I'm in love with it. https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=250379

With all that being said, the one regret I have is not having a bike made by either Jim Kish or Max Kullaway (333fab) Both of them seem like great guys, and Jim is legendary for his sardonic sense of humor. Those would be my choices for a new steed.

[Jeff N.]

I would preface this by saying I loved my old Moots (cr) and I love my current custom ti - but could someone explain to me in plain english why a stock moots costs significantly more than a full custom from nearly all the tier 1 builders mentioned?Check Mosaic...they're REALLY pricey.

[Velocipede]

I thought John sold the company to Ari. In any case, he is truly a great guy. I've met him several times and was always impressed by how down to earth he is.

I have two Ti bikes (a mtb and gravel bike) by Erik Rolf at Alliance. He has a cult following, and for good reason. No nonsense professionalism. I also picked up a used Firefly and it has totally transformed the way I ride. I'm in love with it. https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=250379

With all that being said, the one regret I have is not having a bike made by either Jim Kish or Max Kullaway (333fab) Both of them seem like great guys, and Jim is legendary for his sardonic sense of humor. Those would be my choices for a new steed.

Nope. John still owns it. He also owns an import company that sells other things. I've helped one of their guys with ti anodizing the last couple months.

[veloduffer]

I would preface this by saying I loved my old Moots (cr) and I love my current custom ti - but could someone explain to me in plain english why a stock moots costs significantly more than a full custom from nearly all the tier 1 builders mentioned?


I always questioned that as well. They do a lot of marketing, and have more models than others, so maybe more overhead to carry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mhespenheide]

this thread has me all types of excited.

If we remove the real outliers at the absolute top and bottom end of the price scale - what would you folks say the average price expected to pay for a custom built Ti gravel bike, without excessive add-ons.

is it about $4k? more or less?

I just checked Mike DeSalvo and he's in the low-$3k for a frame: https://www.desalvocycles.com/buildquote.

[Hikyle2]

I have an Alliance, Erik does an amazing job. He's really reassuring and totally willing to talk to you about any weird ideas you have and why they may or may not be a great idea. I found that he's usually right and I'm often ill informed, lol.

[cgolvin]

A friend has a full custom caletti and had an excellent experience through the design and fab and delivery process

I was also going to chime in with John for consideration. Everyone I know who has one of his bikes echoes what Paul said above, super nice guy too. Santa Cruz isn't exactly local but still a manageable drive…not as close as Holland but not as far as 333.

[dpdan93]

If I'm reading the pricing correctly, you can get a DeSalvo builder's special full build ti bike with disc for $5800....? If true, that is insane

[pncguy]

He's been mentioned, but I'll throw out my support for Strong. I love mine. My only complaint is that I insisted on rim brakes, which then limits my fender options. But that's not Carl's fault.

[uber]

The most important issue for me is perfect fit. He is a polarizing figure on this site, but Sasha White from Speedvagen did an amazing job at dialing in a custom fit for me on a steel road bike. He does Ti in addition to steel frames. Road, cross, rugged road, gravel, single speed, track are all available. He has a unique aesthetic and the sky is the limit for specifications and price.
A good friend had an exceptional experience with Mike DeSalvo. Not only was the frame delivered perfectly, Mike is very easy to deal with and has solid insight as to how a gravel bike should fit and ride compared to road bike fit. He might be the first person I call for a Ti gravel bike if I wanted custom. I have always liked Seven, 22, Moots, Strong and Crisp.

[eippo1]

Dean and Merlin are owned by John Siegrist. He has always owned Dean and bought Merlin from ABG(Litespeed/QR). Mosaic is its own company.

Gotta say that I love my Dean and it's how I found this forum in the first place. Super nice welds and is a blast to ride. I'll be sad to put the frame up for sale soon because a recent injury changed my fit.

[Coffee Rider]

I always questioned that as well. They do a lot of marketing, and have more models than others, so maybe more overhead to carry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think Moots costs more than some of the smaller shops because of the dealer network. Other stuff to consider is whether you are comparing prices of butted vs. non-butted frames, etc.

[Sawas]

Would you guys agree that the top 5-10 fabricators under discussion can all deliver a phenomenal Ti bike and that the rest has to do with the finish of the bike? Not everyone can do the anodized finish for example, maybe 3-4 fabricators. The tapered head tube etc.

Btw. I've made a decision and a deposit is being sent out today. I'll let everyone know who it is later :)

[Sawas]

I think Moots costs more than some of the smaller shops because of the dealer network. Other stuff to consider is whether you are comparing prices of butted vs. non-butted frames, etc.

I would prefer butted tubes for a small weight savings I think.

[Velocipede]

the rest has to do with the finish of the bike? Not everyone can do the anodized finish for example, maybe 3-4 fabricators

An example of ti anodizing we've done recently. A PLF member is getting one similar. It's getting to be really common, ti anodizing. Some companies won't touch it for some really odd reasons. Of the listed ones, I would say most offer ti anodizing. The tapered headtube one will be a deciding factor though as most offer a straight headtube.

[mistermo]

I would prefer butted tubes for a small weight savings I think.

I had a call with FF recently where, if I understood correctly, butted tubes help them dial in the ride qualities better than SG. It's more than weight. I'd be interested in hearing others who know more, expand on this.

[Velocipede]

I had a call with FF recently where, if I understood correctly, butted tubes help them dial in the ride qualities better than SG. It's more than weight. I'd be interested in hearing others who know more, expand on this.

That's absolutely correct.

[AngryScientist]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/68/64/c1/6864c1fd7a9a85f4f3736c734d85e5b3.png

[XXtwindad]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/68/64/c1/6864c1fd7a9a85f4f3736c734d85e5b3.png

Ha! Good one! You and me both Brother!

[texbike]

I wouldn't rule out a builder's inability to do anodizing on their frames. There's a great, little company in CO that does custom (including anodized) finishes called Agave FinishWorks (https://www.agavefinishworks.com ). The owner (Peter) had worked at Moots prior to starting his company. They were mentioned in a post a couple of months back and I reached out to him for a quote on refinishing a Ti bike. The pricing was very reasonable and I'll be sending it to him soon (waiting on new decals) to have the work done.

It would be worth reaching out to Peter to discuss your vision of what you would like done to your bike. At least this option would open up the viability of other Ti builders that you may not otherwise consider.

Cheers,

Texbike

[Andy sti]

I have an Alliance, Erik does an amazing job. He's really reassuring and totally willing to talk to you about any weird ideas you have and why they may or may not be a great idea. I found that he's usually right and I'm often ill informed, lol.

I spent 45 min on the phone with Erik yesterday. Just geeking out on bike stuff. I have 2 frames from Erik and we were talking bout my soon to be ordered 3rd.

Can't recommend him enough.

[XXtwindad]

I spent 45 min on the phone with Erik yesterday. Just geeking out on bike stuff. I have 2 frames from Erik and we were talking bout my soon to be ordered 3rd.

Can't recommend him enough.

Really? Damn. What bike would that be? Or is it a secret?

[Andy sti]

Really? Damn. What bike would that be? Or is it a secret?

Monster cross, downcountry, bike packing, short chainstay, quadruple butted Ti ripper!!! It's going to be sweet!:banana:

[XXtwindad]

Monster cross, downcountry, bike packing, short chainstay, quadruple butted Ti ripper!!! It's going to be sweet!:banana:

Dude! I busted my wallet after seeing all your bikes! I’m tapped! No more, I’m begging you!!!!!

But, just out of curiosity, what kind of chainring combo and max tire size would this bike take? I actually left a message for Erik about this yesterday.

If you’re running 2.2 tires, are you limited to a smaller ring up front?

[AngryScientist]

i dont know if they have been mentioned, but Wittson (out of Lithuania) pop up fairly often on ebay, and their frames always look really good to me. i'd put them on my list if i were in the market.

there a neat one on right now:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/HMsAAOSwFiZeqrVT/s-l1200.jpg

[Andy sti]

Dude! I busted my wallet after seeing all your bikes! I’m tapped! No more, I’m begging you!!!!!

But, just out of curiosity, what kind of chainring combo and max tire size would this bike take? I actually left a message for Erik about this yesterday.

If you’re running 2.2 tires, are you limited to a smaller ring up front?

Haha, I'm just joking. We actually talked about another roadie.

[XXtwindad]

Haha, I'm just joking. We actually talked about another roadie.

Phew. What a relief ...

[joosttx]

its not the bike its what you do with the bike that matters

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49838050751_82b54fa992_b.jpg

[wc1934]

I like my Seven, but Passoni is truly lust worthy.

http://www.passoni.it/collection.php

[RoosterCogset]

Dean and Merlin are owned by John Siegrist. He has always owned Dean and bought Merlin from ABG(Litespeed/QR). Mosaic is its own company.

Actually, somewhere in there, Competitive Cyclist owned Merlin for a while.

At this point, Merlin is just a name and has been for awhile.

No.. there are still bikes available.. I believe made with pretty darn good quality and a geometry that may or may not be different than other brands' bikes. But I know what you're getting at -- the original frame designers don't work for the company any more.

btw.. was everyone aware that Volvo is a chinese company?

[JasonF]

I think Moots costs more than some of the smaller shops because of the dealer network.

Yup....when I bought my Vamoots the LBS (by mistake) clipped the invoice Moots sent him to my purchase invoice. They charged the dealer $2,095 for my stock Vamoots frame and $199 for the fork. This was in June, 2016.

[echappist]

Don't actually need full on gravel, but a road bike that could take 32 mm tires (especially knobby ones) would be nice

Anyone know of any that would fit the criteria? Even better if it's rim brake.

Also, anyone has comments on offerings from TiCycles?

[Idris Icabod]

Actually, somewhere in there, Competitive Cyclist owned Merlin for a while.

I've got one of the Competitive Cyclist Merlin mountain frames. It is a fine bicycle, in fact I rode it today. They were built by Form out of Phoenix, AZ. Form didn't last long.

[David in Maine]

Don't actually need full on gravel, but a road bike that could take 32 mm tires (especially knobby ones) would be nice

Anyone know of any that would fit the criteria? Even better if it's rim brake.

Also, anyone has comments on offerings from TiCycles?

My Seven cycles Redsky is easily running 32c Grand Bois Cypres tires with room for wider. Uses long reach Velo Orange calipers. Very satisfied!

[mhespenheide]

Don't actually need full on gravel, but a road bike that could take 32 mm tires (especially knobby ones) would be nice

Anyone know of any that would fit the criteria? Even better if it's rim brake.

Mid-reach Titanium road frames:
2015 Kona Esatto Ti
Vamoots LT
IF Club Racer
Serotta Rapid Tour
Hampsten Strada Bianca Ti
Marinoni Ti Sportivo
Dolan ADX
Airborne
Seven RedSky (and other newer models?)
Backroads
Lynskey Viale
*Habanero
*Carver

*custom but relatively inexpensive

[echappist]

thank you both for the suggestions!

[Velocipede]

Actually, somewhere in there, Competitive Cyclist owned Merlin for a while.



I forget about that timeframe. Yeah, from like 2011/12 till I think 2018 it was Competitive Cyclist who owned them.

As for the comment about Merlin making frames? Yeah, they do. Quite a few. It's not like back in the Mass./ABG days. But they make some cool frames. They are doing Newsboy style frames again AND titanium forks. Really nice frames.

[happycampyer]

Don't actually need full on gravel, but a road bike that could take 32 mm tires (especially knobby ones) would be nice

Anyone know of any that would fit the criteria? Even better if it's rim brake.

Also, anyone has comments on offerings from TiCycles?
My 8-year old (!) Strada Bianca ti takes 35mm tires with ease...

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-BNw7j5P/0/286d7e7e/X2/i-BNw7j5P-X2.jpg

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1308550&postcount=17

[jpang922]

My 8-year old (!) Strada Bianca ti takes 35mm tires with ease...

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-BNw7j5P/0/286d7e7e/X2/i-BNw7j5P-X2.jpg

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1308550&postcount=17

So nice. Curious if these brakes give up anything performance-wise vs. DA/EE etc.? How about fork options nowadays? I'm only aware of Whiskey and Seven making mid-reach carbon forks.

My understanding is that if positioned correctly (i.e. as high as possible with pads at the end of the caliper arms), certain regular-reach calipers can accommodate up to 32c, which may be sufficient for some. Easiest to achieve with custom frame/fork. Less ideal with stock carbon forks although I've heard certain direct mount forks (Specialized Tarmac SL6) fit the criterion.

[JONATHANPATTIE]

Have you Considered T-Lab ?

[TheseGoTo11]

Don't actually need full on gravel, but a road bike that could take 32 mm tires (especially knobby ones) would be nice

Anyone know of any that would fit the criteria? Even better if it's rim brake.

Also, anyone has comments on offerings from TiCycles?

I'm running 32mm GP5000s on my Vamoots DR (https://moots.com/bike/vamoots-dr/) with plenty of clearance.

[happycampyer]

So nice. Curious if these brakes give up anything performance-wise vs. DA/EE etc.? How about fork options nowadays? I'm only aware of Whiskey and Seven making mid-reach carbon forks.

My understanding is that if positioned correctly (i.e. as high as possible with pads at the end of the caliper arms), certain regular-reach calipers can accommodate up to 32c, which may be sufficient for some. Easiest to achieve with custom frame/fork. Less ideal with stock carbon forks although I've heard certain direct mount forks (Specialized Tarmac SL6) fit the criterion.
To be honest, I can’t really say that the brakes aren’t as effective as short-reach brakes, but then again, I’m not racing and pushing braking to the limit. Maybe if I did a side-by-side comparison I would notice a difference.

The biggest nuisance for me is that, even with the cable release at the lever (Campy) and the caliper, a tire wider than 32mm won’t fit past the pads without being partially deflated. I have tried different calipers (V-O, TRP, Shimano) and they all suffer from this issue to some degree.

Re forks, I’m only familiar with the old Serotta ARO fork (which was short-lived in production and had limited clearance since it was based on the F3 body) and the Seven fork. The Seven fork is quite stout (I believe it was originally marketed as a touring fork), and rides better with wider tides.

[skouri1]

I echo Happy.
I am on a steel fork now with my Ti and its great. Should have spec'd it originally.
I have had velo orange caliper, shimano br 650 and trp rg957. I love the maintenance of rim brakes, personally. However of these combos the best I have felt in terms of power and modulation have been Sram levers + TRP.
All others a bit squishy or required odd hand pressure . You get used to all of them, and pads (soft vs hard) can help to dial in a feel you like, but SRAM +TRPs were a revelation for me, immediately a familiar Shimano Dura Ace/Ultegra like braking feel.

As for clearance. You can get one of those shimano housing levers designed for Aero brakes...Or unhook the housing from the rear to get a little more room. Who really wants to do that though...

[ERK55]

I’ve been very pleased with the TRP brakes used with Campagnolo 11 levers. As for comparing them to eebrakes I wouldn’t know...but then again eebrakes are 4x the price.

[joosttx]

FYI: If you are interested in a ti MTB.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49841602243_1d80c74f95_o.jpg

[echappist]

My 8-year old (!) Strada Bianca ti takes 35mm tires with ease...

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-BNw7j5P/0/286d7e7e/X2/i-BNw7j5P-X2.jpg

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1308550&postcount=17
very nice
I'm running 32mm GP5000s on my Vamoots DR (https://moots.com/bike/vamoots-dr/) with plenty of clearance.

I wonder if there's a rim brake version as well

Probably all Moot(s) at the present though, as I'm on one-in-one-out. But certainly nice to know that it is available.

I guess my only reservation is that I've never spent so much on a bike, having gotten very lucky with a few purchases. Fully understand why these frames justify the higher cost, but I think i'll be relegated to watching the used market. At least used Ti frames ride as well as when they are new.

[Coffee Rider]

very nice


I wonder if there's a rim brake version as well

Probably all Moot(s) at the present though, as I'm on one-in-one-out. But certainly nice to know that it is available.

I guess my only reservation is that I've never spent so much on a bike, having gotten very lucky with a few purchases. Fully understand why these frames justify the higher cost, but I think i'll be relegated to watching the used market. At least used Ti frames ride as well as when they are new.

I believe the only rim-brake Moots now is the RSL, though they might do something else as a special order. Used bikes are usually pretty good values and titanium frames are especially so. While I think most bikes will ride just as well used as when new, Ti frames are a lot less likely to look like they've taken a beating.

[ERK55]

I have a rim brake Vamoots (LT). It’s great.
Moots builds now only w/beer can head tubes.

[ToonaBP]

I dipped my foot in the Ti pool last fall, after being introduced to the PLF. After riding my Vamoots RSL for a few months, I decided to take the plunge and get a new Routt RSL. I decided to go the dealer route, since I wanted the fit to be perfect and wanted the shop to be relatively close. Initially, I planned on an anodized finish, but then decided to put that $$ toward nicer wheels. The frame took 9 weeks and build was completed the end of March. I don't think my C-59 will make it out of the basement this year...♣️

[bironi]

I ride a fixed gear and the geared bike only comes out on longer summer mountain pass type rides.
The geared bike is a 2005 Moots Vamoots.
Still happy with it and wears well.
I rode a buddy's Bingham Rando bike on gravel hills recently.
Also a great build.

Today I'd go with Bingham a one man shop and the friend of a friend.

I would have added Spectrum to the list, but Tom Kellog is up to something new.

[mhespenheide]

So nice. Curious if these brakes give up anything performance-wise vs. DA/EE etc.? How about fork options nowadays? I'm only aware of Whiskey and Seven making mid-reach carbon forks.

My understanding is that if positioned correctly (i.e. as high as possible with pads at the end of the caliper arms), certain regular-reach calipers can accommodate up to 32c, which may be sufficient for some. Easiest to achieve with custom frame/fork. Less ideal with stock carbon forks although I've heard certain direct mount forks (Specialized Tarmac SL6) fit the criterion.

I have a Bianchi (steel) frame and fork that fits 32's with short-reach ("normal") brake calipers. So, as others have said, it can be done.

I use the TRP RG957 calipers paired with 6800 levers on another bike. It's the barest touch below the power of an equivalent modern rim brake, but not noticeable to me after 5-10 minutes of riding.

[Matthew]

That Bingham hardtail is an absolute dream xc rig. Just beautiful.

[nmrt]

is there something i am missing. i know tom closed shop last year. but then i heard news that he was consulting for a small bike company (forget the name). apart from this is tom up to something else?

I ride a fixed gear and the geared bike only comes out on longer summer mountain pass type rides.
The geared bike is a 2005 Moots Vamoots.
Still happy with it and wears well.
I rode a buddy's Bingham Rando bike on gravel hills recently.
Also a great build.

Today I'd go with Bingham a one man shop and the friend of a friend.

I would have added Spectrum to the list, but Tom Kellog is up to something new.

[pbarry]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/amp30272911/ritte-satyr-phantom-news/

[Butch]

IMO a lot of great builders mentioned here. I think it has been mentioned you are either going through a dealer or direct to the builder, two different experiences and different support systems for fit and help with whatever comes up including options etc.

I crossed paths with Brad on a ride this week, road the last 15K into town with Hannah and him. Obviously Steamboat is a unique town with a small builder like Bingham and a dealer brand like Moots, both at the top of the list in their categories.

As has been mentioned, doubtful you will ever see a better welder of Ti frames, just look at his IG photos of raw frame finishes. When I hired him at 20 he had a determination like no other to be the best. He also has a lot of experience with custom as he did all the custom drawings at Moots for years and between working with Kent and me with tube selections and fit he has learned a lot over the 22 years he's been at it.

With ano he knows he can send it out to Peter at Agave, another former Moots guy that has great chops for that.

As one of the OG I see so many guys out there that have gotten experience working for the old school group that have great skills and do very good work. It is very competitive and as customers you have such a good selection there are hardly any that fall short of excellent.

One thing about getting a Steamboat built frame is you can come pick it up and take your first ride here (assuming we allow visitors by then, closed through May). Orange Peel as a shop here in the boat is excellent if you go that route.

[texbike]

IMO a lot of great builders mentioned here. I think it has been mentioned you are either going through a dealer or direct to the builder, two different experiences and different support systems for fit and help with whatever comes up including options etc.

I crossed paths with Brad on a ride this week, road the last 15K into town with Hannah and him. Obviously Steamboat is a unique town with a small builder like Bingham and a dealer brand like Moots, both at the top of the list in their categories.

As has been mentioned, doubtful you will ever see a better welder of Ti frames, just look at his IG photos of raw frame finishes. When I hired him at 20 he had a determination like no other to be the best. He also has a lot of experience with custom as he did all the custom drawings at Moots for years and between working with Kent and me with tube selections and fit he has learned a lot over the 22 years he's been at it.

With ano he knows he can send it out to Peter at Agave, another former Moots guy that has great chops for that.

As one of the OG I see so many guys out there that have gotten experience working for the old school group that have great skills and do very good work. It is very competitive and as customers you have such a good selection there are hardly any that fall short of excellent.

One thing about getting a Steamboat built frame is you can come pick it up and take your first ride here (assuming we allow visitors by then, closed through May). Orange Peel as a shop here in the boat is excellent if you go that route.

Great post!

[verbs4us]

SAWAS-- Two things to consider about Firefly's 12-month backlog. First, we're about to enter the greatest economic downturn since the Great Depression and chances are that some of those people on the list may withdraw since their 401k is now a 101k and other expenses become a priority. What is now a 12-month wait could, in two months, be dramatically (and sadly) shorter. Second, when I ordered my FF several years ago, I was also told the wait was 12 to 17 months. I had waited 40 years for a custom, so what's 17 months when you've already waited 40 years? Six months in they called, to say the bike would be ready in 9 months. The trick? I ordered old fart parts (eg, square taper crank; chrome rims, rim brakes, an outmoded Athena drive train, etc.) which were easier and faster to source that the latest stuff of Unobtanium. Still, all parts suppliers are now geared down so all parts may be slower to source, so the old fart advantage may have evaporated.

[Vamoots58]

I put a deposit down with Erik Rolf at Alliance two weeks ago. Waiting for your slot in the queue is the hardest part...next to picking the builder!!

[many_styles]

SAWAS-- Two things to consider about Firefly's 12-month backlog. First, we're about to enter the greatest economic downturn since the Great Depression and chances are that some of those people on the list may withdraw since their 401k is now a 101k and other expenses become a priority. What is now a 12-month wait could, in two months, be dramatically (and sadly) shorter. Second, when I ordered my FF several years ago, I was also told the wait was 12 to 17 months. I had waited 40 years for a custom, so what's 17 months when you've already waited 40 years? Six months in they called, to say the bike would be ready in 9 months. The trick? I ordered old fart parts (eg, square taper crank; chrome rims, rim brakes, an outmoded Athena drive train, etc.) which were easier and faster to source that the latest stuff of Unobtanium. Still, all parts suppliers are now geared down so all parts may be slower to source, so the old fart advantage may have evaporated.


This! Some great points! I’m waiting for some of my finances to stabilize. I’m in my early 40s and finally thinking of a fully custom Ti frame too!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dbnm]

I'm 51 and did not want to wait until next summer for a bike. I spoke with Alchemy in Denver and my bike will be ready in early June. About 90 days from start to finish.

[veloduffer]

Reading this thread has got my bike lust (also known as "Bike Stable Re-think") up and I pulled the trigger on a new Mosaic GT-1 on Ebay. Since this is more road-oriented geometry, I'm pondering which gruppo to use.

I am thinking about SRAM Force AXS (with 48x35 crankset) but already have two gravel bikes with GRX. The bike has frame bits for mechanical, so I could strip one of my bikes for a Dura-Ace or Super Record, which have compact 50x34 cranksets. The intent is to make a mostly road bike with fatter tires. Any suggestions?

[dbnm]

I was watching that Mosaic for a month. Good luck with it!

[QUOTE=veloduffer;2712239]Reading this thread has got my bike lust (also known as "Bike Stable Re-think") up and I pulled the trigger on a new Mosaic GT-1 on Ebay. Since this is more road-oriented geometry, I'm pondering which gruppo to use.

[Coffee Rider]

Reading this thread has got my bike lust (also known as "Bike Stable Re-think") up and I pulled the trigger on a new Mosaic GT-1 on Ebay. Since this is more road-oriented geometry, I'm pondering which gruppo to use.

I am thinking about SRAM Force AXS (with 48x35 crankset) but already have two gravel bikes with GRX. The bike has frame bits for mechanical, so I could strip one of my bikes for a Dura-Ace or Super Record, which have compact 50x34 cranksets. The intent is to make a mostly road bike with fatter tires. Any suggestions?

Super Record. I have DA stuff and like it, but Super Record has something to it that you just don't get anywhere else (provided you consider bike parts sexy). I'm pretty sure you'll love your Mosaic. I'm a bike snob and I react life Duff Man when I see a Mosaic.

[BobbyJones]

i noticed a name absent from this thread...

Kelly Bedford.

[justaute]

Hello again peeps...it's been quite some time since I last posted. Moved back to Utah from Pittsburgh two years ago -- have been skiing a lot. IMO, gravel riding is a ton better in Pittsburgh. Here in Utah, MTB is better. Have to drive quite a while to eastern part of Utah to find good gravel routes that's more than 2 miles long. haha

Was on a short business trip to Boise and decided to take my bike with me. Sold my 2016 Routt and asked Erik at Alliance to build me a gravel bike back in 2017 -- it does not have the 45mm chainstay tire clearance like today's gravel bikes, but have about 6mm of clearance, per side, with the 38mm RH Steilacoom installed (measures 40.5mm); thus, if I push it, I can probably fit a 44/45mm measured tires. Getting ready to sell my plastic road bike. The Alliance is my road/gravel and the occasional cx bike.

This was my first visit to Boise. Flatter than I had expected. Boise seems to have a better gravel scene than that of SLC. Still prefer Pittsburgh.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49858046672_949aede54d_h.jpg

[JWB475]

Came across the J. Guillem Atalaya gravel bike on the Gravel Cyclist YouTube channel.

Although this has become a custom build discussion, I thought I would still mention it because of its interesting cast & dropped stay yoke design which was a topic of discussion a few pages ago.

420mm chainstays, and massive 27.5 x 2.6" ?!?! or 700 x 45mm tire clearance...

https://jguillem.com/bike/atalaya-gravel

Sold in the US through Lindarets: https://lindarets.com/

[many_styles]

SAWAS-- Two things to consider about Firefly's 12-month backlog. First, we're about to enter the greatest economic downturn since the Great Depression and chances are that some of those people on the list may withdraw since their 401k is now a 101k and other expenses become a priority. What is now a 12-month wait could, in two months, be dramatically (and sadly) shorter. Second, when I ordered my FF several years ago, I was also told the wait was 12 to 17 months. I had waited 40 years for a custom, so what's 17 months when you've already waited 40 years? Six months in they called, to say the bike would be ready in 9 months. The trick? I ordered old fart parts (eg, square taper crank; chrome rims, rim brakes, an outmoded Athena drive train, etc.) which were easier and faster to source that the latest stuff of Unobtanium. Still, all parts suppliers are now geared down so all parts may be slower to source, so the old fart advantage may have evaporated.


I just freed up some funds and was reminded of this reply.

I’m really tempted to pull a trigger on a FF.

I was thinking of order components, and a wheelset before hand to accommodate the longer wait times because of supply chain issues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jeff N.]

As many of you know, I own...or have owned...some of the best Ti rides on the planet. I've only had ONE bad experience. I won't mention any names, but I will say they work up in No. Cal. It was a custom Ti road frame. I know all my numbers so it was just a matter of signing off on a CAD drawing. The frame was, I believe, 3900.00 sans fork. When it came to me about 7 weeks later, and I took it out of the box, I was almost immediately disappointed. The quality and finish of the titanium used was poor...looked like Chiwan-made stuff similar to a cheap-azz Airborne I had so many years ago. The welds were as sloppy and puddly as could be...looked like they were done by an 8th grade metal shop student, absolutely the worst I'd ever seen on ANY Ti frame, custom or otherwise...It had internal rear brake cable routing but there was NO GUIDE running through ( no internal tube in place) and, after about an hour of trying to get a cable fished through, I gave up. I then was fed up, Emailed the builder and said I wanted a full refund (got it) and shipped the thing back. I saw that the the builder put it up on Ebay a few weeks later. I scoffed. I think it sold for a bit over a $grand. Couldn't believe a builder would let something like it leave his shop with a clear conscience. I'd say that if you're looking for a builder with uncompromising quality, go with Holland or Firefly. I own both. Sure, the wait for a Firefly is long but, as my Dad used to say about restaurants, "If there's not a waiting line to get in, you probably should go to a different restaurant".

[NoMoreParagon]

As many of you know, I own...or have owned...some of the best Ti rides on the planet. I've only had ONE bad experience. I won't mention any names, but I will say they work up in No. Cal. It was a custom Ti road frame. I know all my numbers so it was just a matter of signing off on a CAD drawing. The frame was, I believe, 3900.00 sans fork. When it came to me about 7 weeks later, and I took it out of the box, I was almost immediately disappointed. The quality and finish of the titanium used was poor...looked like Chiwan-made stuff similar to a cheap-azz Airborne I had so many years ago. The welds were as sloppy and puddly as could be...looked like they were done by an 8th grade metal shop student, absolutely the worst I'd ever seen on ANY Ti frame, custom or otherwise...It had internal rear brake cable routing but there was NO GUIDE running through ( no internal tube in place) and, after about an hour of trying to get a cable fished through, I gave up. I then was fed up, Emailed the builder and said I wanted a full refund (got it) and shipped the thing back. I saw that the the builder put it up on Ebay a few weeks later. I scoffed. I think it sold for a bit over a $grand. Couldn't believe a builder would let something like it leave his shop with a clear conscience. I'd say that if you're looking for a builder with uncompromising quality, go with Holland or Firefly. I own both. Sure, the wait for a Firefly is long but, as my Dad used to say about restaurants, "If there's not a waiting line to get in, you probably should go to a different restaurant".


Thanks for sharing. However kudos to the builder to make you whole. Doesn’t happen always that way.
Risk of these kind of posts is that now people that look for NorCal builders will wonder whether theirs is yours.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vamoots58]

A couple of pics from Erik before my frame heads off for bead blasting...Now the waiting gets REALLY hard...

[Jeff N.]

Thanks for sharing. However kudos to the builder to make you whole. Doesn’t happen always that way.
Risk of these kind of posts is that now people that look for NorCal builders will wonder whether theirs is yours.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkTheir name is RARELY mentioned so I don't think there's much to fret over in that regard. Heck, folks'd wanna know who it is, wherever. I ain't sayin'. Just trying to point out that not ALL builders are of the highest quality. One needs to see an example IN PERSON before ever pulling the trigger. Period.

[TheseGoTo11]

My 8-year old (!) Strada Bianca ti takes 35mm tires with ease...

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-BNw7j5P/0/286d7e7e/X2/i-BNw7j5P-X2.jpg

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1308550&postcount=17

Man, that's a lovely bike.

[RyanH]

Which builders tend to do full tube manipulation (e.g. Butting and shaping tubes) as part of their customization?

Nearly every tube on my Litespeed has been manipulated and I have yet to ride a bike that matches it. I'd be concerned about going to custom and being disappointed.

[dbnm]

All of the tubes on my Alchemy have been shaped, not butted.

[fijichf]

Hello again peeps...it's been quite some time since I last posted. Moved back to Utah from Pittsburgh two years ago -- have been skiing a lot. IMO, gravel riding is a ton better in Pittsburgh. Here in Utah, MTB is better. Have to drive quite a while to eastern part of Utah to find good gravel routes that's more than 2 miles long. haha

Was on a short business trip to Boise and decided to take my bike with me. Sold my 2016 Routt and asked Erik at Alliance to build me a gravel bike back in 2017 -- it does not have the 45mm chainstay tire clearance like today's gravel bikes, but have about 6mm of clearance, per side, with the 38mm RH Steilacoom installed (measures 40.5mm); thus, if I push it, I can probably fit a 44/45mm measured tires. Getting ready to sell my plastic road bike. The Alliance is my road/gravel and the occasional cx bike.

This was my first visit to Boise. Flatter than I had expected. Boise seems to have a better gravel scene than that of SLC. Still prefer Pittsburgh.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49858046672_949aede54d_h.jpg

Awesome pic with a cool car and an even cooler bike.

[Sawas]

Since I was the OP here, I wanted to give an update on this.

I've placed a deposit with.... Kualis.

He matched up with my aesthetics;
- Anondized finish ✓
- Tapered head tube ✓
- Excellent welds ✓

The wait time isn't short but it's a multiple shorter than FF. The communication has been great so far. I've been really impressed with the quality of the builds he's been putting out there. He does fully butted tubes in his custom builds.

[jkbrwn]

Since I was the OP here, I wanted to give an update on this.

I've placed a deposit with.... Kualis.

He matched up with my aesthetics;
- Anondized finish ✓
- Tapered head tube ✓
- Excellent welds ✓

The wait time isn't short but it's a multiple shorter than FF. The communication has been great so far. I've been really impressed with the quality of the builds he's been putting out there. He does fully butted tubes in his custom builds.

Those are cool. Finishes are like a mixture of FF and Baum. Nice!

[jghall]

All you have to do is look at Houston's fleet to know this is money.

I crossed paths with Brad on a ride this week, road the last 15K into town with Hannah and him. Obviously Steamboat is a unique town with a small builder like Bingham and a dealer brand like Moots, both at the top of the list in their categories.

As has been mentioned, doubtful you will ever see a better welder of Ti frames, just look at his IG photos of raw frame finishes. When I hired him at 20 he had a determination like no other to be the best.

[joosttx]

All you have to do is look at Houston's fleet to know this is money.
Ya, I think Butch knows where the money is at. But Bingham Built is the only brand where I have owned two bikes and am considering a third.

[many_styles]

Since I was the OP here, I wanted to give an update on this.

I've placed a deposit with.... Kualis.

He matched up with my aesthetics;
- Anondized finish ✓
- Tapered head tube ✓
- Excellent welds ✓

The wait time isn't short but it's a multiple shorter than FF. The communication has been great so far. I've been really impressed with the quality of the builds he's been putting out there. He does fully butted tubes in his custom builds.


Gorgeous!

Are you in the US, or closer to Japan?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RyanH]

Ya, I think Butch knows where the money is at. But Bingham Built is the only brand where I have owned two bikes and am considering a third.I feel superficial in saying this: Brad's work has always been on my shortlist but "Built" is really not a name I want to see on my downtube.

[many_styles]

I feel superficial in saying this: Brad's work has always been on my shortlist but "Built" is really not a name I want to see on my downtube.


Bingham has a nice ring to it. Find a designer to create a custom font!

Some might think, “who cares”...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[weisan]

I feel superficial in saying this: Brad's work has always been on my shortlist but "Built" is really not a name I want to see on my downtube.

I am re-painting my Paul Taylor custom frame right now. I have considered "Godzilla", "Xanadu", "Enigma"...before I decided on "Odyssey" to go on the downtube. I can call it whatever I want.

[many_styles]

I am re-painting my Paul Taylor custom frame right now. I have considered "Godzilla", "Xanadu", "Enigma"...before I decided on "Odyssey" to go on the downtube. I can call it whatever I want.


A builder’s name is one of the few exceptions where I’d like to expose/promote the brand to the public.

But yeah, to each their own.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[John H.]

I just got a Built for a customer with no downtube logos- So that is an option.
He has also done them with "BINGHAM BUILT" on the downtube.

I feel superficial in saying this: Brad's work has always been on my shortlist but "Built" is really not a name I want to see on my downtube.

[cnighbor1]

Davidson builds great ti frames and with the new larger BB
I have know bill over many years and he is one of the top frame builder period
http://www.davidsonbicycles.com/

http://www.davidsonbicycles.com/cool-bike-of-the-month-axs

[XXtwindad]

I feel superficial in saying this: Brad's work has always been on my shortlist but "Built" is really not a name I want to see on my downtube.

I don't think that's a superficial concern at all. I feel similarly, in fact. The name might be disconcerting, especially with the bold font. But I've worked with a couple of builders, and each of them was amenable to working with me on logos and fonts. Some people disagree, and that's just fine. But you're the one shelling out $3-4K.

[mistermo]

I feel superficial in saying this: Brad's work has always been on my shortlist but "Built" is really not a name I want to see on my downtube.

It's a fine logo, but I've puzzled over the origin or significance of the sailboat logo. I wouldn't think it was relevant to Steamboat either.

[lookout2015]

I just got a Built for a customer with no downtube logos- So that is an option.
He has also done them with "BINGHAM BUILT" on the downtube.

For another option, I think you can also still order Eriksen branded

[David in Maine]

Which builders tend to do full tube manipulation (e.g. Butting and shaping tubes) as part of their customization?

Nearly every tube on my Litespeed has been manipulated and I have yet to ride a bike that matches it. I'd be concerned about going to custom and being disappointed.

Seven does custom tube butting to match the customers ride quality preferences.

David

[Coffee Rider]

Seven does custom tube butting to match the customers ride quality preferences.

David

Baum does this and I'm pretty sure Firefly does as well. There are likely several other builders that do as well.

[joosttx]

I feel superficial in saying this: Brad's work has always been on my shortlist but "Built" is really not a name I want to see on my downtube.

I actually felt the same way but I quickly got over it after seeing the quality of the workmanship, the easy of the buying process and riding the bike. That logo conveys a lot of positive vibes.

[Dino Suegiù]

Since I was the OP here, I wanted to give an update on this.

I've placed a deposit with.... Kualis.

He matched up with my aesthetics;
- Anondized finish ✓
- Tapered head tube ✓
- Excellent welds ✓

The wait time isn't short but it's a multiple shorter than FF. The communication has been great so far. I've been really impressed with the quality of the builds he's been putting out there. He does fully butted tubes in his custom builds.
https://forums.thepaceline.net/images/icons/icon14.gif
What a fine pedigree. The work looks really excellent and refined.

Please post follow-ups. I hope the frameset exceeds all your expectations for years to come.

[simonov]

Baum does this and I'm pretty sure Firefly does as well. There are likely several other builders that do as well.

Confirmed, Firefly does this as well.

I actually felt the same way but I quickly got over it after seeing the quality of the workmanship, the easy of the buying process and riding the bike. That logo conveys a lot of positive vibes.

Yeah, his level of workmanship is so good that I don't think the brand name or logo would even register for me one way or the other. If I didn't already have a couple titanium bikes, he'd be on my short list.

[soulspinner]

http://www.hampsten.com

Welded by Brad but straight gauge tubing if that matters to you.

[Blown Reek]

Welded by Brad but straight gauge tubing if that matters to you.

When I inquired about a frameset from Bingham, he said "I do not build with any double butted tubing." That ended that.

[joosttx]

When I inquired about a frameset from Bingham, he said "I do not build with any double butted tubing." That ended that.

I had a butted tube titanium bike (actually two) from two high end custom frame builders.And, in fact, I was reluctant to go with a straight tube too but I assure you my Builts are great and better riding than my other two ti bikes. I don’t think it matters if you have a good builder who knows what he is doing.

[ERK55]

Since I was the OP here, I wanted to give an update on this.

I've placed a deposit with.... Kualis.

He matched up with my aesthetics;
- Anondized finish ✓
- Tapered head tube ✓
- Excellent welds ✓

The wait time isn't short but it's a multiple shorter than FF. The communication has been great so far. I've been really impressed with the quality of the builds he's been putting out there. He does fully butted tubes in his custom builds.

Looked at the website and IG- the frames look very nice. Are you ordering direct from Japan or a US dealer? Also, the only info on pricing is in yen...looks like the base price comes out to about 4500 USD (?)

[Sawas]

Looked at the website and IG- the frames look very nice. Are you ordering direct from Japan or a US dealer? Also, the only info on pricing is in yen...looks like the base price comes out to about 4500 USD (?)

I ordered direct from Japan. I'm located in the US.
As far as pricing, yes, that's pretty much the range. He also has an international pricing sheet around somewhere as well.

[Sawas]

https://forums.thepaceline.net/images/icons/icon14.gif
What a fine pedigree. The work looks really excellent and refined.

Please post follow-ups. I hope the frameset exceeds all your expectations for years to come.

Thank you Dino. That's very kind of you. I'm really looking forward to it.
I have to build up the rest of the bike now. I'm looking at purchasing (maybe) LightBicycle AR46 wheelsets for this paired with a SRAM AXS 12sp eTap groupset. What do you guys think?

[roguedog]

OH my goodness. Very jealous. I think he has been doing amazing work. I follow his IG account and his sense of aesthetic really jives for me. Great choice.


Why did you decide to go with LIght Bicycle vs BTLOS? Curious..

[slowpoke]

I ordered direct from Japan. I'm located in the US.
As far as pricing, yes, that's pretty much the range. He also has an international pricing sheet around somewhere as well.

Are you not worried about import tariffs on this beaut? Or is this built into the price?

[Mikej]

[QUOTE=slowpoke;2743938]Are you not worried about import tariffs on this beaut? Or is this built into the price?

There may be import customs costs, but not sure about tariffs.

[zetroc]

When I inquired about a frameset from Bingham, he said "I do not build with any double butted tubing." That ended that.

I'm not sure why everyone's worried about the butting of their titanium. It's not steel and it doesn't behave like steel.

[Blown Reek]

I'm not sure why everyone's worried about the butting of their titanium. It's not steel and it doesn't behave like steel.

Well, if you want a lighter bike because you want a lighter bike, butting is going to be lighter. Will it affect the ride quality? Maybe or maybe not. Will it make it lighter? Yes. Not offering a butted tubeset is a non-starter for me.

[zetroc]

Well, if you want a lighter bike because you want a lighter bike, butting is going to be lighter. Will it affect the ride quality? Maybe or maybe not. Will it make it lighter? Yes. Not offering a butted tubeset is a non-starter for me.

Is weight your primary concern?

[Sawas]

[QUOTE=slowpoke;2743938]Are you not worried about import tariffs on this beaut? Or is this built into the price?

There may be import customs costs, but not sure about tariffs.

I actually checked the harmonized code online and it doesn't seem like there are any duties or import tariffs on bike frames from Japan.

[joosttx]

Well, if you want a lighter bike because you want a lighter bike, butting is going to be lighter. Will it affect the ride quality? Maybe or maybe not. Will it make it lighter? Yes. Not offering a butted tubeset is a non-starter for me.

Truth, but I would go with a carbon bike if weight was a major concern. For me I wanted the best riding bike built in a reasonable time. That’s why I chose Built.

[XXtwindad]

Well, if you want a lighter bike because you want a lighter bike, butting is going to be lighter. Will it affect the ride quality? Maybe or maybe not. Will it make it lighter? Yes. Not offering a butted tubeset is a non-starter for me.

Erik butted the top and down tubes of my gravel bike to make it lighter. He also told me that it would make for a slightly more comfortable ride.

[slowpoke]

I actually checked the harmonized code online and it doesn't seem like there are any duties or import tariffs on bike frames from Japan.

Ah good to know, thanks! I've always been worried about buying bikes from overseas for this reason.

re: butted ti frames. Does it seem like builders personally don't care for it, but it's offered because customers expect high-end frames to be butted and are willing to pay the premium?

[zetroc]

Truth, but I would go with a carbon bike if weight was a major concern. For me I wanted the best riding bike built in a reasonable time. That’s why I chose Built.

Me too. If one is solely concerned about weight, but wants a titanium bike, then that's already a major compromise. Why not compromise a little more and quit worrying about the specifications of the tubing? Wheels are going to make a bigger difference anyway.

[RyanH]

Maybe because if you aren't careful with tube selection you can end up with a Ti frame that weighs more than steel? My Litespeed T3 frameset weighs around the same as what most painted Pinarello F10s weigh.

[Blown Reek]

Is weight your primary concern?

No, but if I can get a bike that rides like I want that weighs less than a heavier version, that's the one I'm going for.

[Dino Suegiù]

No, but if I can get a bike that rides like I want that weighs less than a heavier version, that's the one I'm going for.

How will you (anyone) ever really know for certain?

[Blown Reek]

How will you (anyone) ever really know for certain?

Because I assume that the framebuilders that I work with actually follow through with the upcharge for the lighter tubing.

[Dino Suegiù]

Because I assume that the framebuilders that I work with actually follow through with the upcharge for the lighter tubing.

Of course one trusts that, it's a given at least from any reputable builder.

My question was not meant in jest at all.
I meant how would one actually know whether the lighter, more expensive frame actually rode better unless one compared two exactly equal builds, frames from the same builder, same geometry, the only difference being straight-gauge v butted tubes?

I have ridden a fair amount (not exactly equal builds) of straight v butted titanium bicycles and honestly never wondered once if the frame would be "better" if butted or vice versa. Many builders have in fact (as others have pointed out re themselves), dissuaded me from paying extra for butted, or simply do not provide butted: in my size (59/60 ST +/-) any "positive" factors (very slight) were never commensurate with the increased cost of butted (substantial).

[Blown Reek]

My question was not meant in jest at all.
I meant how would one actually know whether the lighter, more expensive frame actually rode better unless one compared two exactly equal builds, frames from the same builder, same geometry, the only difference being straight-gauge v butted tubes?

Well, there's the rub. It's nothing more than power of suggestion. When I ordered my Spectrum, an extra $400 bucks got me the "Titanium Super" model instead of the straight gauge "regular" model. Does it ride any better? I wouldn't know. But I will tell you that if I ordered the base model, I would have felt like I didn't get what I wanted. So naturally, since I'm bored of my Spectrum, I figured that I'd sniff around to see what's out there. Built sure seemed like it fit the bill, but going from a butted tubeset to a straight gauge tubeset seemed like a step backwards, hence the being a non-starter.

I'd be bummed if my new bike was heavier than my old bike, and when it comes down to it, that's pretty much the only thing that differentiates one ti bike from another (if you're using the same geometry and tubes [which they all pretty much are]). A Spectrum is basically a Seven (since that's where they're welded), but I'd never get a Seven. But is a Spectrum "better" than a Seven? Or a Moots? Or a 333Fab? Or an Alliance? Or a Firefly? Or a Built? Or a Strong? Sure, each one has their own schtick, and that's basically what you're buying into.

Basically, you're going to buy what you're stoked on, and if you're not getting what you want you're selling yourself short. A few hundred bucks on top of a few thousand isn't that much more money, and when the common folk see the "Super Titanium" on my Spectrum, they'll know that I didn't settle on a run-of-the-mill straight-tubed titanium bike and I'm a man of exquisite taste.

[joosttx]

Of course one trusts that, it's a given at least from any reputable builder.

My question was not meant in jest at all.
I meant how would one actually know whether the lighter, more expensive frame actually rode better unless one compared two exactly equal builds, frames from the same builder, same geometry, the only difference being straight-gauge v butted tubes?

I have ridden a fair amount (not exactly equal builds) of straight v butted titanium bicycles and honestly never wondered once if the frame would be "better" if butted or vice versa. Many builders have in fact (as others have pointed out re themselves), dissuaded me from paying extra for butted, or simply do not provide butted: in my size (59/60 ST +/-) any "positive" factors (very slight) were never commensurate with the increased cost of butted (substantial).

Agreed, I have had two butted titanium frames from highend builders. Yes, both of them were lighter than my current straight tube Bingham Built frames. Weight does matter to me to a degree and I would just say I would NOT trade my Bingham Built frames for my others. The reason I write "Bingham Built" instead of straight tube builder is I don't think straight tubes are better but I do think the brand of my bike is.

[vincenz]

I believe good info was given by some renowned ti builders on butting previously:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=228376

I don’t see why you shouldn’t go for butting if you had a choice. A few hundie more on a multi thousand frameset isn’t much of anything, comparatively speaking. You will be hard pressed to find a cheaper way to lose those extra few hundred grams after the frame is made. Depending on the type of bike you’re looking to have, butting shouldn’t be disregarded.

[Dino Suegiù]

Well, there's the rub. It's nothing more than power of suggestion. When I ordered my Spectrum, an extra $400 bucks got me the "Titanium Super" model instead of the straight gauge "regular" model. Does it ride any better? I wouldn't know. But I will tell you that if I ordered the base model, I would have felt like I didn't get what I wanted. So naturally, since I'm bored of my Spectrum, I figured that I'd sniff around to see what's out there. Built sure seemed like it fit the bill, but going from a butted tubeset to a straight gauge tubeset seemed like a step backwards, hence the being a non-starter.

Basically, you're going to buy what you're stoked on, and if you're not getting what you want you're selling yourself short. A few hundred bucks on top of a few thousand isn't that much more money, and when the common folk see the "Super Titanium" on my Spectrum, they'll know that I didn't settle on a run-of-the-mill straight-tubed titanium bike and I'm a man of exquisite taste.

Well, for one thing now we need to also define all measurable differences between "common folk" versus "uncommon folk" but, regardless, per your own admission, the more discerning folk (whether "common" or not) see the "Super Titanium" on [your] Spectrum, they will know:
a) that [you] didn't settle on a run-of-the-mill straight-tubed titanium bike,
b) that [you are] a man of exquisite taste,
c) who is now bored of his previous stoke, even though it was fully butted.

Sellers of greener grass will then follow you incessantly, like rabid ambulance chasers, making your life miserable.

;) :) ;)

[AngryScientist]

Very good and interesting discussion!

Apologies if i have missed it in the preceding pages, but has Brad stated a reason for not using butted tubes?

personally, i have owned bikes of both varieties too and i am certain that i would not be able to tell the difference in a blind taste test, but i do see Blown Reek's position that if you are anti'ing up for the best ti, maybe you feel you left something on the table with straight gauge tubing vs a custom drawn set.

i think, as before, it proves time and time again - when you buy a custom bike, you buy the builder, you have to trust they are making the best bike they can for you.

again, i like this thread. it's dangerous, but i like it!

[Blown Reek]

Well, for one thing now we need to also define all measurable differences between "common folk" versus "uncommon folk" but, regardless, per your own admission, the more discerning folk (whether "common" or not) see the "Super Titanium" on [your] Spectrum, they will know:
a) that [you] didn't settle on a run-of-the-mill straight-tubed titanium bike,
b) that [you are] a man of exquisite taste,
c) who is now bored of his previous stoke, even though it was fully butted.

Sellers of greener grass will then follow you incessantly, like rabid ambulance chasers, making your life miserable.

;) :) ;)

Exactly.

But being the flawed man that I am, I really just wish I had either a 44mm or tapered headtube on the Spectrum, and that's why the itch is there. Shallow, right? But that's the way it works.

[XXtwindad]

Well, there's the rub. It's nothing more than power of suggestion. When I ordered my Spectrum, an extra $400 bucks got me the "Titanium Super" model instead of the straight gauge "regular" model. Does it ride any better? I wouldn't know. But I will tell you that if I ordered the base model, I would have felt like I didn't get what I wanted. So naturally, since I'm bored of my Spectrum, I figured that I'd sniff around to see what's out there. Built sure seemed like it fit the bill, but going from a butted tubeset to a straight gauge tubeset seemed like a step backwards, hence the being a non-starter.

I'd be bummed if my new bike was heavier than my old bike, and when it comes down to it, that's pretty much the only thing that differentiates one ti bike from another (if you're using the same geometry and tubes [which they all pretty much are]). A Spectrum is basically a Seven (since that's where they're welded), but I'd never get a Seven. But is a Spectrum "better" than a Seven? Or a Moots? Or a 333Fab? Or an Alliance? Or a Firefly? Or a Built? Or a Strong? Sure, each one has their own schtick, and that's basically what you're buying into.

Basically, you're going to buy what you're stoked on, and if you're not getting what you want you're selling yourself short. A few hundred bucks on top of a few thousand isn't that much more money, and when the common folk see the "Super Titanium" on my Spectrum, they'll know that I didn't settle on a run-of-the-mill straight-tubed titanium bike and I'm a man of exquisite taste.

Exactly this. When I was considering the options for my Alliance Ti gravel bike "butting" for an extra $300 was an option. At that point, why not? Do I trust that Erik followed through and butted the tubes? Well, he has a sterling reputation, so I certainly hope so. Erik... you there!? :) Would I be able to tell the difference? Doubt it.

Edit: I have a double butted Ti Alliance MTB. I had a rigid fork on it. It weighed a tick less than 20 lbs fully built. Going up a hill on a MTB that light with a 28/42 combo was awesome! Going downhill sucked.

[vincenz]

Well, for one thing now we need to also define all measurable differences between "common folk" versus "uncommon folk" but, regardless, per your own admission, the more discerning folk (whether "common" or not) see the "Super Titanium" on [your] Spectrum, they will know:
a) that [you] didn't settle on a run-of-the-mill straight-tubed titanium bike,
b) that [you are] a man of exquisite taste,
c) who is now bored of his previous stoke, even though it was fully butted.

Sellers of greener grass will then follow you incessantly, like rabid ambulance chasers, making your life miserable.

;) :) ;)


What’s butting have to do with wanting to keep a frame or not? I have a butted frame and if I were to get another one or replace it, I would also go for another butted frame and not consider straight gauge because of weight.

Butting requires labor and I’m sure it’s a top reason why small one-man shops would be less likely to want to do it versus bigger operations that can scale it better.

[Dino Suegiù]

When I was considering the options for my Alliance Ti gravel bike "butting" for an extra $300 was an option. At that point, why not?
Because imo the choice is not the result of a simple cost/gram calculation, with butted always the "winner" above a certain undefinable ratio line. I certainly understand why people buy butted, but butted is not always the "better" tubeset for all riders and their needs.

When the titanium builder I ordered from (who builds in both tubesets) explained to me very carefully, in person, after talks and having watched me ride my pre-him bicycle, his recommendation for me of straight-gauge over butted, I was extremely impressed with the perceptions, experience, and honesty. The points were very clear and convincing, and cost savings was not one of them.

Of course it can and does work the other way too; an experienced builder might completely justifiably say, "Butted is best for you.", explain why, and be completely accurate in that assessment. I simply do not find "butted is better, always" a very logical argument. S-G v Butted is more parallel imo, I think much more parallel (ie more possibilities for a great frame either way) than 3/2.5 v 6/4 for example.

[Dino Suegiù]

What’s butting have to do with wanting to keep a frame or not? I have a butted frame and if I were to get another one or replace it, I would also go for another butted frame and not consider straight gauge because of weight.

Butting requires labor and I’m sure it’s a top reason why small one-man shops would be less likely to want to do it versus bigger operations that can scale it better.
Please read Blown Reek's post (to which I was replying) completely to understand that my post you quoted was made in humor, to him.

It is not a judgment on my part, only my personal observations as to "discernible differences". Whether or not some people choose butted, love it, swear by it, think it is "best", bees knees, all of that...completely fine with me.

EDIT; the builder I refer to in my posts, who recommended convincingly s-g for me, is a very small, one-man shop. He happily builds in either tubeset, just as many other top but very small shops do. Scale of operation in building s-g v butted v both is not a major consideration (if it is one at all), from what I know.

[joosttx]

Because imo the choice is not the result of a simple cost/gram calculation, with butted always the "winner" above a certain undefinable ratio line. I certainly understand why people buy butted, but butted is not always the "better" tubeset for all riders and their needs.

When the titanium builder I ordered from (who builds in both tubesets) explained to me very carefully, in person, after talks and having watched me ride my pre-him bicycle, his recommendation for me of straight-gauge over butted, I was extremely impressed with the perceptions, experience, and honesty. The points were very clear and convincing, and cost savings was not one of them.

Of course it can and does work the other way too; an experienced builder might completely justifiably say, "Butted is best for you.", explain why, and be completely accurate in that assessment. I simply do not find "butted is better, always" a very logical argument. S-G v Butted is more parallel imo, I think much more parallel (ie more possibilities for a great frame either way) than 3/2.5 v 6/4 for example.

I completely agree.

[vincenz]

Please read Blown Reek's post (to which I was replying) completely to understand that my post you quoted was made in humor, to him.

It is not a judgment on my part, only my personal observations as to "discernible differences". Whether or not some people choose butted, love it, swear by it, think it is "best", bees knees, all of that...completely fine with me.

EDIT; the builder I refer to in my posts, who recommended convincingly s-g for me, is a very small, one-man shop. He happily builds in either tubeset, just as many other top but very small shops do. Scale of operation in building s-g v butted v both is not a major consideration (if it is one at all), from what I know.

As there is no discernible difference with the ride with butted frames, I'd argue one should choose butted every time given the relatively small difference in price.

If scale didn't matter, then all one-man shops would do it by default, but they don't for a reason. Butting requires more labor, and one-man shops would be more apt to charge more for it, understandably, whereas larger operations either don't need to/have it built into their pricing. I'd rather go with a builder that's known to butt all their tubes by default than not. It's just another level of consideration into the frame-building process.

If I were going to a nice restaurant, I'd rather them use all the ingredients necessary and charge me what they need to for the full experience, than leave one thing out and give me a slightly lesser experience at a cheaper price. Depends what you value.

[Dino Suegiù]

^
OK, fine, to each their own....

[GonaSovereign]

Maybe because if you aren't careful with tube selection you can end up with a Ti frame that weighs more than steel? My Litespeed T3 frameset weighs around the same as what most painted Pinarello F10s weigh.

It weighs 10 lbs?
:-)
Seriously though, I was under the impression the T3 was pretty light for ti.

[Dino Suegiù]

I completely agree.

I fear you and I are stuck alone out here in the "Field of Skeptics", while so many firmly committed creatures lurk in the surrounding "Forest of Butted Believers."

Perhaps we will find some solace in the campfire, the hare on the spit, the ale, and in repeating,
"Blow, wind! come, wrack!
At least we’ll die with our straight-gauge frames on our back."

;) :) ;)

[Velocipede]

BiXXis Pathos. Seamless Reynolds 3/2.5 titanium tubing. Handmade by Doriano De Rosa in Italy.

[RyanH]

It weighs 10 lbs?

:-)

Seriously though, I was under the impression the T3 was pretty light for ti.

Lightest I got it was 12.9lbs but sub 12 or lower would be feasible if I went full blown weight weenie on it.

My frame is 1250g roughly which is what I'd expect most high end Ti frames to be but I know Mosaic, for example, tends to be a decent amount heavier. My T1sl was 998g. I think a Moots rsl is generally sub 1200g.

[XXtwindad]

I fear you and I are stuck alone out here in the "Field of Skeptics", while so many firmly committed creatures lurk in the surrounding "Forest of Butted Believers."

Perhaps we will find some solace in the campfire, the hare on the spit, the ale, and in repeating,
"Blow, wind! come, wrack!
At least we’ll die with our straight-gauge frames on our back."

;) :) ;)

Since we're on the subject of great poets, a great sage once said "I like double butted Ti, and I cannot lie."

[XXtwindad]

BiXXis Pathos. Seamless Reynolds 3/2.5 titanium tubing. Handmade by Doriano De Rosa in Italy.

Whistle emoji.

[t-v]

Does anyone know if DeSalvo has closed the order book at the moment? I want to get on his waiting list and I am not in a rush, but I can't get through by phone, email of the website.

[jkbrwn]

Does anyone know if DeSalvo has closed the order book at the moment? I want to get on his waiting list and I am not in a rush, but I can't get through by phone, email of the website.

I would be interested to know this also^
I seem to remember reading on here that his order books were currently closed. But I could be imagining that.

[Andy sti]

He just had a bike in the Enve builders round up and he’s coming out with a Ti builders special bike. I don’t believe Mike’s orders are closed.

[t-v]

Thanks