Triple tricks?

[merlinmurph]

My wife's bike has 105 5600 with a triple crank and the chain falls off too often when shifting to the inner ring. I've been fiddling with this waaaay too much and can't fix it. Thankfully, triples are things of the past, but right now she's stuck with it.

The chain falls off generally when the RD is on the 2-3 largest cogs. When the chain is lower down on the cogset, it's acceptable.

I put a new chain on it recently.


Things I've tried:
- FD inner limit.
I have to set this inward enough so that it will shift to the inner ring. When it's at that point, the chain falls off.

- Checked FD alignment.
Looking from above the FD, I've made sure the FD cage is parallel to the big ring. Out of desperation, I've tried angling it various ways - no luck.

- Adjusted FD height above big ring
I thought the FD might have been a little too high, so I lowered it. No luck.

- Chainline
I thought if if I could adjust the chainline a little, that might help.
The cassette already has a very skinny spacer behind the cassette. I tried putting a fatter spacer on, but couldn't put the lockring on with that spacer.

I think an answer might still be a chainline adjustment via either the rear axle or the BB, though I'm not sure if I can move the crank in.

Any tips?

[AngryScientist]

there are a ton of different chain guards on the market. some cheap, some cool. just get one and mount it to prevent dumping the chain. problem solved!

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTIPlwhccP9yTjkuTb9LFHtMVc3b3x-zqG56Fkq1bcst0gALcNYLRJVb_kl

[CNY rider]

Thankfully, triples are things of the past,

Any tips?

Bite your tongue!
I love mine.

[fiamme red]

Bite your tongue!
I love mine.Same here! I have triple cranks on four bikes.

[merlinmurph]

Bite your tongue!
I love mine.

I thought I might hit a nerve there. I have a good friend, strong rider, who swears by his triple with Campy 8-sp.

[cp43]

Is the middle chain ring worn?

I've found I have the most trouble with that shift when I need to replace the middle ring. It seems to hold the chain too much when it's worn, and prevent a clean shift to the small ring.

Chris

[fmradio516]

if she can get away without the smallest ring, just set the limit screw in and turn it into a double! Could even update the range of her cassette to make it feel like its still the same gearing.

[Ralph]

it's either an adjustment issue.....or chain is too slack for RD to take up. Or RD spring too slack, or RD doesn't have the capacity to handle a triple. I use a triple with one of my bikes (Mid cage RD) and have no problems like that.

My usual fix is to angle FD tail just a tad out so chain can't fall off, IE: The inner cage plate stops the chain and forces it to sit down on small ring. Inner cage plate (not outer) parallel to small ring or even out a little. No room for it to go off inside front ring. Just make sure the crank arm doesn't hit the FD when she pedals. Adjust inner stop where it stops cage where you want it. If it come close to "tickling" the chain when in little front big rear...and still makes the shift....even if shift a tad slow when on those few large cogs you may down shift from....that's fine.

I assure you....triples work fine.

[robt57]

Drops with old chain?
New chain length VS old chain.
Too long chain length on bike?

Wife's 105 triple has a 46t big ring so I could drop the granny to a 26 and be well in system capacity. No drops, no drop device.

My last complete triple full groupo was 6700 with 6603 STi. It was one of the best shifting systems in my cycling life.

Try finding an Ultegra front triple derailleur and put on a drop catch device.

[merlinmurph]

Thanks, guys.

For you guys that have triples, do you have a preventer?

This is an '09 Trek carbon frame. I don't see how a device can be put there since the ring is really low. I'll search around.

Thanks again.

[Ralph]

No....

[rain dogs]

A lot of the above mentioned tips are great but another (which does take some investment) is changing the size of the rings. Triples can be finicky and poor shifting can be alleviated with less size difference between the rings.

Often people have triples and barely use the really big, big ring, or don't need so many gear inches. I dunno what you have.

For example a 53/42/30 triple may not be necessary. Depending on the BCD she could use a 48/39/30 or a 46T or similar.

[paredown]

Less likely but worth a look--check to see that your middle chain ring, and/or middle inner is not running out of round/or running out side to side or has wear (as suggested).

If it has been apart, check the orientation of the rings, and make sure any spacers are replaced correctly.

[sg8357]

I thought I might hit a nerve there. I have a good friend, strong rider, who swears by his triple with Campy 8-sp.

Campy 8/9/10 had the glorious micro ratchet front shifting, so it works fine
with a broad range of front mechs and ring combos.
Most of which are not Campag.
Before the dark age of indexed front shifting ruined triples.:)

Shimano, lacking a sense of adventure, has failed to reintroduce triples
with Di2, where it would work fine.

[cp43]

Thanks, guys.

For you guys that have triples, do you have a preventer?

This is an '09 Trek carbon frame. I don't see how a device can be put there since the ring is really low. I'll search around.

Thanks again.

I don't use as drop preventer.

I am running bar-end shifters, so, friction for the front derailleur. I don't think that makes a big difference to this issue though.

This might work, it doesn't clamp to the seat tube: https://www.jensonusa.com/K-Edge-Pro-Chain-Catcher


Chris

[merlinmurph]

I am running bar-end shifters, so, friction for the front derailleur. I don't think that makes a big difference to this issue though.

A friction shifter might be able to use a narrow FD, though. I thought that the Shimano design included a wide FD which is the source of a lot of issues. Call me on that if I'm wrong. Friction shifter is not an option for me, though.

[AngryScientist]

k-edge attaches right to the FD...


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4U9c2JQs66M/maxresdefault.jpg

[jc031699]

Wondering if you set the upper and lower limit screw stops with the cable attached but with zero tension?

I.e. shifting to small ring by pulling on cable by hand to shift into middle ring and then releasing the cable to drop back down into small ring, and not using shifter?

And same with large ring? By pulling on cable by hand to go up from middle to large ring and not using the shifter?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[benb]

It's mostly a question of finding the complete directions for that groupset and following them exactly to the letter, including the sizing of the chain. Even a lot of shop guys fail to follow the directions *exactly*. They've got shop BS in their head that they learned and they think they know better than Campy/Shimano/SRAM do. You might need to verify all the parts are actually compatible as well.

The chain catcher is a good idea too you again just have to set it up correctly.

Also IMO every bike with a cable front derailleur needs an inline micro-adjuster.. you are basically never going to nail it if you have to keep loosening the cable and pulling it with a pair of pliers to set tension. I have been through that with a shop before.. losing the micro adjuster is not worth the couple grams it saves, dropped chains make you slow AF.

I usually set all the little threaded adjusters to 50% of the way through their travel before fixing the cable. You don't want to end up running out of adjustment although if you do it's a good indication you pulled the cable too tight/too slack when fixing it.

Cages can get bent in multiple directions.. sometimes they are out of alignment and need to be bent back or replaced.

The only bike I've ever actually needed to put a chain catcher on ironically is a double, that bike got setup at the shop initially and they 100% didn't follow the directions, pretty frustrated, they even put the wrong model of chain catcher on it. (Mismatched to ring size). It was actually pretty tricky for me to figure out it had the wrong chain catcher on it. That was after I had to have an argument with them about putting the micro adjuster in for the front derailleur as well.

[pinkshogun]

http://mgagnon.net/velo/pedalier4.en.php

[cp43]

A friction shifter might be able to use a narrow FD, though. I thought that the Shimano design included a wide FD which is the source of a lot of issues. Call me on that if I'm wrong. Friction shifter is not an option for me, though.

I'm using a friction shifter with a shimano triple FD. So, I can't say one way or the other on that.

It did used to have STI shifters (8 speed Tiagra). I took them off years ago, so I don't remember any setup tricks anymore. I do recall that the shifting wasn't prefect, but frequent chain drops weren't a problem.

Chris

[merlinmurph]

Thanks again for the help, guys.

This started after I overhauled the bike:
- removed crank, removed rings, cleaned everything, reassembled
- replaced FD cable
- replaced chain with same length chain

I'm going to remove the crank again to see if/what I screwed up. Sometimes just reassembling fixes something. When that happens, it's even more confusing because you don't know what the actual problem was. Reminds me of some of the software bugs I've encountered. :)

I'm looking into a preventer. A forum member graciously reached out offering a K-edge, but that model seems to be for braze-on FDs - the bike has a clamp-on. I'm digging.

Thanks again.

[eddief]

rode triples forever. when i needed chain thingy i used the ngear jump stop. built for clamp on bikes:

https://n-gear.com/whatis.html

and as i recall, i had issues sometimes with cable tension. too tight then shifter would make the d jump hard to lower rings. but just right tension, then the trim function works best and makes for more controlled shifts downward.

good luck.

[mjbrekke]

I install the type of chain catcher that Angry showed on most every bike I build up now—doubles, triples, indexed or not, anything that involves chain movement to shift. https://www.rei.com/product/670913/third-eye-chain-watcher. It fits virtually any round seattube, is infinitely and easily adjustable, and is nearly invisible unless you’re looking for it. I agree that a well-adjusted derailleur won’t drop, but $10 and 45 gms is a small price to protect a fine frame.

[dave thompson]

If the OP has a bike with a round seat tube the N-Gear JumpStop, mentioned by eddief above, is absolutely the best chain stop on the market. As eddief commented about the der cable tension being too tight is that something that should be checked.

[ultraman6970]

Never seen that before... awesome! :D

http://mgagnon.net/velo/pedalier4.en.php

[ultraman6970]

BTW... what about a reliable set of thumb shifters??? those things will shift anything.

Saying that because i have no idea about shimano triple, I imagine the shimano has just 3 positions and thats it... what can be wrong? IMO is the adjustment screw... but since is doing just weird stuff probably the components are just old.

Good luck with this one, you can get a nice compact group with a super big cassette for not that much now a days.

[jc031699]

Thanks again for the help, guys.

This started after I overhauled the bike:
- removed crank, removed rings, cleaned everything, reassembled
- replaced FD cable
- replaced chain with same length chain

I'm going to remove the crank again to see if/what I screwed up. Sometimes just reassembling fixes something. When that happens, it's even more confusing because you don't know what the actual problem was. Reminds me of some of the software bugs I've encountered. :)

I'm looking into a preventer. A forum member graciously reached out offering a K-edge, but that model seems to be for braze-on FDs - the bike has a clamp-on. I'm digging.

Thanks again.


If it worked before, it’ll work again. It’s gotta be an adjustment problem. You didn’t change anything that would justify all of these other explanations....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dddd]

First thing I would check is that the small ring isn't installed backwards since it is not symmetrical in terms of the location of the tips of the teeth.

Is the derailer stopped by the limit screw or by cable tension after shifting to the smallest ring? Should be by the limit screw.

I adjust FD's with the outer plate parallel to the big ring or ever so slightly tail-out.

The outer cage plate is what forces the chain down, and the inner plate is what limits the chain's inward trajectory. If the cage is spread apart or if the chain is too narrow then the control window is widened and the chain may fall too far inward.

Is the cage set at only 1-3mm above the big ring's teeth when the outer cage plate is in plane with the big ring?

As a last resort, and commonly when assembling bikes from random parts, I often find myself adjusting the position of the chainring teeth tips by means of holding a file at an angle to one side or other of the tips of the teeth. It sounds like in this case that the small chainring's teeth would benefit from a bevel applied to the driveside using a coarse file held against the rotating chainring. This is tricky only in terms of not having the moving crankarms striking your arm and also in terms of the file not snagging on the middle ring's lift features, but I do this all the time as a final tune-up procedure after a new build's first lengthy test ride.

Illustration below as applied to the small ring of a double, I did this and it worked on the first try, no more dropped chain.

https://live.staticflickr.com/5498/30447649233_f4546b5305_c.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

5603 crank is 50/39/30(yours?), so that helps vs 52(3)/39/30. Small frames, with corresponding steepish seat tubes, steepish fder cage angles and shortish chain stays(steeper angle chain, front to back), doesn’t help. BUT what you are seeing pretty common on smaller frames.
Limit screws and fder cage angle(I’d actually make it ‘slower’ fder cage angle wise, tail in a bit) but then the chain might not go to small ring at all.
But yup, chain watcher....

[Dave]

I put a k-edge pro on one of my bikes, after having my first chain drop in a very long time. It does not work. I've since had two drops and it did nothing to stop the drop. The chain is likely to drop inside the device, so you have to loosen the adjustment bolt to get the chain back out. Of course my water bottle cage prevent access to that bolt, so I also have to remove the lower bolt and move the cage out of the way

My old bike with a round seat tube had the type posted by Angry. It actually worked.

[merlinmurph]

Answering a few questions....

If it worked before, it’ll work again. It’s gotta be an adjustment problem.

Yup, agree. It dropped occasionally before, but now it's pretty bad.

First thing I would check is that the small ring isn't installed backwards

I'm going to remove the crank this AM - I'll check that

Is the derailer stopped by the limit screw or by cable tension

Definitely the limit screw

Is the cage set at only 1-3mm above the big ring's teeth

Yup

5603 crank is 50/39/30(yours?),

Yup, this one on a small 47cm frame. I think this is the smallest frame.

It's mostly a question of finding the complete directions for that groupset and following them exactly to the lette

Noted

Also IMO every bike with a cable front derailleur needs an inline micro-adjuster

It has one



Replacing parts right now (double, friction, etc) is not an option. Well before this, we were talking about a new bike, possibly from Tom Matchak. She's 64 and wants something more upright, comfortable, etc.

Thanks again for the input. Down to the basement...

[marciero]

Thanks, guys.

For you guys that have triples, do you have a preventer?

This is an '09 Trek carbon frame. I don't see how a device can be put there since the ring is really low. I'll search around.

Thanks again.

Our Commotion tandem had one when we bought it and I just never took it off.
Our Cannondale tandem does not have one.

Both these bikes have triples and shift as well as any of my doubles on single bikes, especially the Como with 9sp DA. We never drop chains. I am certain we dont need a preventer on the Como and dont see why you would need it more on a triple any more than you would on a double.

[merlinmurph]

I have spent way too much time on this...more than I care to admit. Good thing I don't work in a shop - I'd be fired. ;-)

Here's the latest.

New housing in addition to the previously new cable.
Lubed cable in the housing area and at the BB guide.
Downloaded instructions for FD 5603 install and started from the beginning.
Gone thru the steps in the doc many times

I'm kinda close, but not there.
I've never really paid attention to the clicks in this triple setup until now. After cycling thru the click sequence way too many times, this is what I have.

Starting with chain in big rear cog and inner ring
Going up

1. Start at inner ring
2. small click, still in inner ring
3. big click, now in middle ring
4. small click, still in middle ring
5. big click, in big ring

Going down
1. Starting in big ring
2. small click, still in big ring
3. big click, middle ring
4. big click, small ring, sometimes falling off

I'm missing a click going down.



Narrowing it down even more, starting in small ring and going up

1. Start at inner ring
2. small click, still in inner ring
3. big click, now in middle ring

Going down
1. Starting at step 3 just above
2. big click, small ring
No more clicks

I had 3 positions (2 clicks) going up, but just the one going back down.

Any idea?

It's raining here today, so I've got the time....


One more thing...
A chain catcher for this frame looks tricky. It's a Trek Madone 4.7. The seat tube is roundish, round enough to accommodate a clamp-on FD, but the tube expands as it approaches the BB and where the small ring is. I'm going to visit my LBS where we bought it.


TIA,
Murph

[froze]

Triples are not a thing of the past especially amongst the touring crowd; a triple gives you a lot more range of gears, especially for climbing with a loaded touring bike than a double or the new fangled single system. I know a guy who got advised by a bike shop that a new single was the way to go for touring, and he listened to all the marketing blah blah blah stuff about it so he gleefully purchased the bike, he really liked the setup it was great plus one thing less to wrong with the bike while touring. Except on his maiden tour with the bike he was heading up a grade and ran out of gears and had to walk the bike up the grade! He had been up that grade before in his much older bike and never ran out gears, but he did with his new bike. He actually ended up cutting his tour short because he ran into another grade and had to walk it again, so he returned home put his bike for sale on CL and went and found a bike with triples because the bike shop he bought the bike from said he couldn't put triples on that bike due to the way it was set up.

I have had 3 bikes with triples and none have ever dropped off the inside gear ring, so here is a site that hopefully can help you:

https://road.cc/content/feature/201548-how-stop-your-chain-coming-dropped-chain-can-damage-your-bike-or-even-cause

https://www.roadbikerider.com/diagnosing-a-chain-that-falls-off-the-chainring-2/

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=chain+keeps+dropping+off+the+inside+chain ring+of+a+triple+crank&PC=U316&ru=%2fsearch%3fq%3dchain%2bkeeps%2bdropping%2boff% 2bthe%2binside%2bchainring%2bof%2ba%2btriple%2bcra nk%26PC%3dU316%26FORM%3dCHROMN&view=detail&mmscn=vwrc&mid=E669648227D66E051B66E669648227D66E051B66&FORM=WRVORC

I know some of that is for doubles but it all works the same way. If all the advice others and myself don't work than take the bike to a bike shop and have them figure it out.

It could be too that your chain alignment is off, when your chain is in the middle gear of the rear cluster and in the middle gear of the chain rings that chain when viewed from behind the bike should be exactly parallel in a straight line without even a slight angle going to the left of right. If you see an angle you may want to discuss how to correct that with a bike shop.

There is one last thing you can do, which might be necessary if the chain alignment is off and the fix either can't be done or will cost too much, and that is to buy what's call a chain catcher, AKA chain watcher, AKA chain keeper. You don't need anything fancy, a simple one made by Deda called a Dog Fang will work great and don't cost much, just measure the diameter of your seat tube so you get the right size. These chain keepers are actually necessary especially for carbon fiber bikes because should a chain fall off that chain can pretty quickly eat a gouge into the CF and then the bike owner will be really pissed, with any type of metal frame all you'll do is take paint off and or scratch the metal all up which is more of a visual thing and not serious damage like the CF.

[eddief]

been a while but as I recall there was only one trim click and it was for when the chain was on the middle ring for micro adjusting to get rid of chain rub when going up and down the cassette with chain on middle ring. Otherwise the cable is at full tension when chain is on big ring and with barely any tension when chain is on the small ring.

when the chain is on the small ring how much tension do you have in the cable. should be no slack i think but not tight either.

when on the small ring mostly you don't need trim cuz you should not be cross chaining that much, same for big ring.

another thing to look at would be where you have the stop set for the FD. maybe you are allowing the the FD to actually pull the chain off to the inside cuz the stop is set to far in. why not set the stop so the chain almost derails the chain from middle to small, but not quite. and then turn the screw a bit counter enough to barely "allow" the chain to just barely derail from middle to small.

and maybe it is about the angle of the FD in relation to chain rings. sometimes absolute parallel is best but sometime a little bit of angle can do the trick.

All that said, I just checked the Shimano PDF and maybe you are right about the trim options. Instructions not so clear and neither is my memory:

https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/si/SI-6KD0C-002-ENG.pdf

[jc031699]

Wondering if you set the upper and lower limit screw stops with the cable attached but with zero tension?

I.e. shifting to small ring by pulling on cable by hand to shift into middle ring and then releasing the cable to drop back down into small ring, and not using shifter?

And same with large ring? By pulling on cable by hand to go up from middle to large ring and not using the shifter?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I use this sequence to set initial limit screws and FD angle. These adjustments should be pretty independent of cable tension. It may help to eliminate the reason for dropping the chain off to the inside.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[merlinmurph]

I followed the instructions in the doc (ha! who does that!)
Briefly:

1. No cable attached, yet. Chain on inner ring, big cog. Set low adjustment screw
2. Attach cable
3. Chain on big ring, little cog. Set high adjustment

4. chain in middle ring, big cog. Instructions say there are two FD positions here and the adjustment is done with the FD in the inner position. This is where the instructions don't line up with the clicks/positions I experience.

...and it goes on from there.

I'm really curious what people get for clicks/positions of the shifter.

[jc031699]

I am editing what I posted in this space before. Looking closely at #4 in this PDF, it clearly shows that the middle ring trim click uses the small lever when you are going up from small ring to middle ring. When you go down from the large ring to the middle ring, it takes you straight to the same middle ring position as the trim click when going the other direction. In this case, the trim occurs with the large lever in the opposite direction.

So you are not missing a middle ring trim click, it is just done with different levers depending on what direction you were going (up or down) when you got to the middle ring.

http://www.sjscycles.com/Instructions/Shimano/Shimano_105_5603_Front_Derailleur_Instructions.pdf

https://forum.cyclinguk.org/download/file.php?id=52879&mode=view

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[merlinmurph]

Well, I caved - brought it to my LBS with my tail between my legs. Of course, he fixed it. My wife picked it up yesterday and he didn't charge her, so I brought him a 12-pack of good local beer today and asked what the deal was (outside of course, because...).

He ended up bending the cage a bit, I think he said he bent the inside part of the cage. I'm sure this got bent over the years and messed things up. I tried it out, put the chain in the big rear cog and shifted lots of times from middle to small - no drops. My wife did a ride today and said it can shift a bit slowly to the small ring when she's in more of a middle cog.