carbon vs. non - shoes

[AgilisMerlin]

anybody ever gone back from a carbon rd. shoe to a non carbon soled shoe?


anybody.


aMerlin

[saab2000]

Never used carbon shoes. Carbon curious tho....... Just so spendy.

These are my daily users.

[AgilisMerlin]

slippers...........look like triple century shoes............


holy cr...............p :D


those look like shoes "the dude" would wear.



amerlin


if it aint broke, don't buy it

[saab2000]

I was told years ago that these need to be replaced. So I bought another similar pair. They are almost the same, but not quite. Decent, but not great. The ones pictured are also not the greatest ever, but work pretty well. I guess after about 10 years or so they have paid for themselves.

These are 42s. I may try a pair of 42.5 of the new Time shoes and pedals. Maybe.

When these start to wear out. :D

BTW, the cuts in the lower strap on the left shoe are from my rabbits in Switzerland. They used to bite everything and decided one day that my shoes would be a tasty snack. At the time I was bummed out, but now I miss Switzerland and the rabbits, even though they are in the great warren in the sky now.

[Grant McLean]

Never used carbon shoes. Carbon curious tho....... Just so spendy.

These are my daily users.

saab,

I hate to tell you, but your shoes have a carbon sole.
Just not the fancy fake weave outer layer.

I had the same shoes, and a pair of Carnac Lemond's
that were pretty much the same sole. Last year I replaced
them, and got Keo's after riding Time Equipes for 15 years
or so. After about 3 rides on the new stuff, i never looked
back. I had put off replacing the shoes and pedals for at
least 5 seasons because i was afraid of changing. It wasn't
nearly the big deal i thought it would be.

g

[csm]

ever think the rabbits would make a tasty snack?

[stevep]

saab,
we should take up a collection for you to buy you some sidis.
those shoes shoulda been buried in 1999.
y2k and gone.

[saab2000]

saab,

I hate to tell you, but your shoes have a carbon sole.
Just not the fancy fake weave outer layer.

I had the same shoes, and a pair of Carnac Lemond's
that were pretty much the same sole. Last year I replaced
them, and got Keo's after riding Time Equipes for 15 years
or so. After about 3 rides on the new stuff, i never looked
back. I had put off replacing the shoes and pedals for at
least 5 seasons because i was afraid of changing. It wasn't
nearly the big deal i thought it would be.

g

My biggest problem isn't fear. It is complacency. These work and they are paid for. Things have gotten soooo spendy in the past few years it is just outrageous. $400 US for a pair of Sidis?!?! Excuse me?? ***?!!??

But on hot days with long rides I have been known to have some real, honest-to-god foot pain.

BTW, I did not know these are the same carbon as modern shoes. I just thought they were stiff plastic.

[Grant McLean]

My biggest problem isn't fear. It is complacency. These work and they are paid for. Things have gotten soooo spendy in the past few years it is just outrageous. $400 US for a pair of Sidis?!?! Excuse me?? ***?!!??

But on hot days with long rides I have been known to have some real, honest-to-god foot pain.

BTW, I did not know these are the same carbon as modern shoes. I just thought they were stiff plastic.

Yes, i hear you on the prices. Spendy.

If you plan to keep your shoes, try some custom footbeds.
I'm a believer, but you need to have them done by someone
who knows what they are doing, since they should lock your
foot into a position that it doesn't collapse under weight.

Those Times you got are a stiff as any modern uber shoe,
maybe stiffer.

My carnac's got to be like slippers too, but the new shoes was the
best money i spent in a long time. On the SRM, i was at least
10-15 watts higher with the new shoes.


g

[saab2000]

ever think the rabbits would make a tasty snack?

This was one of the 'gang of four'. His name was Surrimuzz. They got to run around all day, but at night we caged them. This one is not the guilty party for the shoe biting.

PS - I will no sooner eat a rabbit than you will eat a dog or a cat.

[Serotta PETE]

Never used carbon shoes. Carbon curious tho....... Just so spendy.

These are my daily users.


Saab, I think your shoes are in better shape than mine.....and I just do not have the heart to change them out. I do have a pair of the SPECIALIZED but I keep going back to the ole reliables,

[Ken Robb]

I sold my Carnac Quartz because I like to stop and walk around. I use Eggbeaters and SPD pedals with Shimano M020 mtn. shoes and there is little, if any, reduction in pedalling efficiency for me. Heck, I often ride bikes with MKS Touring pedals with no straps or clips at all.

I think a lot of foot pain is caused by shoes that are too tight after one's feet swell as the ride goes on. This may be reduced by loosening the shoe straps/laces as the ride continues to maintain uniform pressure on the feet from the beginning to the end of the ride.

[Simon Q]

Yes, i hear you on the prices. Spendy.

If you plan to keep your shoes, try some custom footbeds.
I'm a believer, but you need to have them done by someone
who knows what they are doing, since they should lock your
foot into a position that it doesn't collapse under weight.

Those Times you got are a stiff as any modern uber shoe,
maybe stiffer.

My carnac's got to be like slippers too, but the new shoes was the
best money i spent in a long time. On the SRM, i was at least
10-15 watts higher with the new shoes.


g

Saab, have you tried Sidis? The fit is amazing for all but the wierdest hooves. Genuis 5's are $229 on Comp Cyclist. See plenty of Pro Tour guys wearing that model (mainly in white), vs the higher end models one so it must be OK.

I have already told my story on here but I agree 100% with Grant - get some footbeds from a podiatrist who knows what he is doing and the interface will be perfect. I am lucky enough that in Melbourne there is a pod that has fitted Pro Tour and many other prof riders. He gets you to bring your bike in, analyses your pedalling style and tracking and dials you in. It was way better than my R7's (which were OK). He is a massive fan of the Sidi fit, especially the shape of the back half which is the most important to get right and where a custom insole really dials it in. Well worth devoting resources to this area given that it is such a critcal interface.

[crrm6sl]

I have a pair of Shimano R 151s
Carbon soles are much stiffer than plastic . The shoes are also lighter :banana:

[Steelhead]

My biggest problem isn't fear. It is complacency. These work and they are paid for. Things have gotten soooo spendy in the past few years it is just outrageous. $400 US for a pair of Sidis?!?! Excuse me?? ***?!!??

But on hot days with long rides I have been known to have some real, honest-to-god foot pain.

BTW, I did not know these are the same carbon as modern shoes. I just thought they were stiff plastic.

If you watch LBS sales events you can pick up a pair of Sidi Genius 5's or their off road brother, Dominator 5 for around $159. I bat you can get 15 years+ out of a pair of those. No carbon soles, though but plenty stiff.

[swoop]

the place(s) to spend money on a bike are the contact points. in this case, the main point at which you are translating the power your body makes and putting into the machine; what we're talking about is shoes. you want to wear the best fitting, absolutely stiffest shoes you can feel cmfortable in with the basic idea that fit and power transfer are what defines a good shoe.

it's also the one piece of gear that you need to understand doesn't last forever. an old shoe does soften up.

the ideal is a custom uber light stiff shoe. the reality is that every company fits differently and if you've found your fit, there are amazing shoes to be had....without having to go custom.

but to ride a several thousand dollar bike, on a pair of old broken down shoes.... is the same as marrying a supermodel and taking a vow of celibacy at the same time. its really silly.

[stevep]

is the same as marrying a supermodel and taking a vow of celibacy at the same time. its really silly.

it is?
shiite. never shoulda signed the other paper.
shiite.

on a serious note. i think people a lot of times get shoes that are on the 1/2 size too tight side. modern shoes dont stretch at all. dont expect it. dont fit for it.

[saab2000]

In general I have not skimped on anything on my bike. I buy used nowadays when possible, but still get the good stuff. I have good pedals, bars, saddles and tires, all of which are contact points.

I disagree that shoes soften up. How can the plastic/carbon sole on my Times get flexier over time? Not trying to pick a fight, but I don't see it.

Besides, as with everything, it is not the equipment that is holding me back. It is my lack of fitness and my inability to change that due to my work schedules of late.

BTW, I agree on the fit thing. My Times are 42s and are a bit tight sometimes, depending on a number of factors. If I replace them this year with a new set of Time shoes I will get 42.5s and even try 43s.

But right this minute I can do no such thing. The bills are piled high and deep and unfortunately, corporate America gets most of my money right now in the form of insurance premiums and other crap.

[alancw3]

sidi's! any genius. great customer support. i am not an ocp so i was reluctant to try sidi's several years ago. i have to say they are great. i can't imagine a shoe getting any better. sometimes you just can't improve on something. i have heard of users that have had a buckle break on a five year old pair and sidi sends them a new one free of charge. now what more could you want? i am certainly sold on sidi.

[ergott]

I have a pair of real carbon soled Shimano road shoes and Sidi non carbon mtn shoes. There is definitely a difference in the stiffness. I won't get into whether this really matter because I don't really know or care. I do know that I prefer the stiffer platform of a real carbon bed and will not go back. That means I can't afford new shoes any time soon;-)

[tv_vt]

I switched from a pair of Sidi size 48 to Carnac M5 size 47 last year. the M5's are great shoes and the 47's are bigger than the Sidi 48's. Also with my foot size, the Sidis were a bit softer soled than the Carnacs. I can tell the difference when I stand up on the pedals. But these Carnacs are not carbon soled, they just have a stiffer plastic sole than the Sidis, which are known to have a somewhat flexier sole.

Anybody interested in some size 48 Sidis?

[thejen12]

Saab, have you tried Sidis? The fit is amazing for all but the wierdest hooves.

I find that Sidi's have too high an arch for me - I have slightly flat feet, are they considered weird hooves? ;) Is there any kind of insole that would fix that? It seems like most insoles are designed to give you more arch, but I need less.

Jenn

[stevep]

I find that Sidi's have too high an arch for me - I have slightly flat feet, are they considered weird hooves? ;) Is there any kind of insole that would fix that? It seems like most insoles are designed to give you more arch, but I need less.

Jenn

get an inexpensive set of dr scholls or something and put that in in place of the insole in there.
should help. or
sole systems makes a self made custom insole that i find actually works pretty well...they are around $40 and are easy to do. might help also. i have flat feet and use 'em and like 'em.

[chrisroph]

the place(s) to spend money on a bike are the contact points. in this case, the main point at which you are translating the power your body makes and putting into the machine; what we're talking about is shoes. you want to wear the best fitting, absolutely stiffest shoes you can feel cmfortable in with the basic idea that fit and power transfer are what defines a good shoe.




Custom insoles are a godsend for comfort, efficiency and correction of any alignment issues. They typically take much tweaking to get just right. You need to fit your shoes with the insoles in place. I've got two pair of sporthotic orthotics that I've used for years and years. I could not ride without them.

[cpg]

My carbon sole Time shoes are less stiff than my old Carnacs. I won't tell you how old they were but well I waited a little too long to replace them. Nonetheless they were stiffer than my '06 carbon sole Times. With that said, I really like my Times.

Curt

[swoop]

i go one step further.. i went to a bike racing ortho (he rides and he's a stud) and had carbon orthotics made to fit the exact sidis i wear. custom carbon insoles... it's a subtle but pervasive difference. i try and practice what i preach.. its all about points of contact. they cost a bunch but i think of them as a prophylactic against future injury.... and therefor a lot less expensive than not having them.

what do i win for sincerely using the word prophylactic in a post? stevep, there has to be a prize, no?

cycling is funny, i think the more you get to ride .. the more the little things give pleassure. new bottles, orthotics, a custom fit that works, really nice kit (i'm loving bergamo/capo these days.. but will always say the same about verge), a great song list on the ipod, liberace bars... the right underlayers, new cleats.. the little intangibles turn it from a great time into perfection.

atmo

[AgilisMerlin]

i just picked up a pair of carbon r215 shimano carbon shoes used on ebay for a dollar.

i sh*t you not.


my wife is going to san franscisco next week for 6 days, for benchmarking and the wine show. she will also be seeing an old friend, who lives in the city, who signed up for the san franscisco to LA aids ride.

she will be the proud new owner of these used shoes.

i have the exact pair, and am using them now.

i also have a pair of sidi energy shoes. They are in perfect shape. have not had the urge to go back to them yet.

the carbon shoes do suck for really long rides. >75 miles = pain

sidi's never had a problem.

will eventually go back to spdply zeroes and dump the cleats on both shoes. in a couple of years i am guessing.

amerlin

[Kevan]

and see how long they'll last until they run out of gas.


I had put off replacing the shoes and pedals for at
least 5 seasons because i was afraid of changing. It wasn't
nearly the big deal i thought it would be. g

This is me, I'm in a prolonged denial stage. My stupid Bebops require SPD drillin' so finding a shoe for them is getting harder to do. My Northwave's may be my last hold to the current pedal system. Sidi's and Carnac's just don't seem to fit properly and Shimano's, which always fit me best, well... those folks gave up on their own drillin'. Damn them!

[terrytnt]

I have an 5 year old pair of Carnacs that are ready to be replaced. I'm a very narrow fit (typically A width/ 44 length) and use Shimano SP pedals. I've heard that Sidi's do indeed run narrow. Is this true?

Can anyone suggest an appropriate manufacture I might consider? Also thinking about Carbon sole upgrades... if I come across some big bucks.

thoughts?

[AgilisMerlin]

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2 F&fkr=1&from=R8&satitle=sidi+44&category0=&submitSearch=Search

my advice

narrow feet = sidi

go to a sidi dealer find out what size

only buy genius model or higher/

all other models made in slovenia or somewhere outback like that, and the toebox on those cheaper models is huge, not snug, and the sizing is all different.

know from exp.

then if you are not directly connected by the hip to a shop buy what you need online.

enjoy



amerliN

[swoop]

I have an 5 year old pair of Carnacs that are ready to be replaced. I'm a very narrow fit (typically A width/ 44 length) and use Shimano SP pedals. I've heard that Sidi's do indeed run narrow. Is this true?

Can anyone suggest an appropriate manufacture I might consider? Also thinking about Carbon sole upgrades... if I come across some big bucks.

thoughts?


yes on sidis... and yes on specialized.. which are narrow but wider in the toe box.. as good as sidis and less expensive (too wide for me).

[Simon Q]

I find that Sidi's have too high an arch for me - I have slightly flat feet, are they considered weird hooves? ;) Is there any kind of insole that would fix that? It seems like most insoles are designed to give you more arch, but I need less.

Jenn

Most people need more arch support rather than less so I don't want to say that your hooves are wierd, just different to many. Unless the replacing the Sidi insole with a flat one would give you a flat enough platform (unlikley, Sidi arch support comes more from the shape of the shoe) then they may not be for you. Despite being custom, R7's are very (too much so for me) flat through the arch and the new Time shoes (seen in recent post) seem to be flat as well.

[swoop]

Most people need more arch support rather than less so I don't want to say that your hooves are wierd, just different to many. Unless the replacing the Sidi insole with a flat one would give you a flat enough platform (unlikley, Sidi arch support comes more from the shape of the shoe) then they may not be for you. Despite being custom, R7's are very (too much so for me) flat through the arch and the new Time shoes (seen in recent post) seem to be flat as well.


um.. aren't times and dmt's the same thing? i know dmt makes shoes for a few different brands...

[chrisroph]

i go one step further.. i went to a bike racing ortho (he rides and he's a stud) and had carbon orthotics made to fit the exact sidis i wear. custom carbon insoles... it's a subtle but pervasive difference. i try and practice what i preach.. its all about points of contact. they cost a bunch but i think of them as a prophylactic against future injury.... and therefor a lot less expensive than not having them.



atmo

Custo carbon insoles sound great.

The DO who built my hard plastic orthotics is a cyclist/triathlete who set the record at ironman hawaii for the most liters of IV fluid absorbed after the race. He's a stud too. The efficiency difference between these and off the shelf insoles is huge.

I had another set built a couple of years ago but they didn't work as well as my old tried and true sporthotics.

I agree with you about contact patch comfort. Having just the right insoles, shoes, pedals, saddle, shorts, gloves, h/bars, bartape, position, tires, glasses, etc. make the ride efficient and the sport enjoyable.

[stevep]

yes on sidis... and yes on specialized.. which are narrow but wider in the toe box.. as good as sidis and less expensive (too wide for me).

swoop, swoop, swoop,
specialized as good as sidi?
swoop, im sending you a coupon good for 5 sessions with a psychiatrist.
all you gotta do is sit in front of a mirror and explain it to him without cracking up ( any more than you are now ).
limited time offer.
better than cash

[swoop]

swoop, swoop, swoop,
specialized as good as sidi?
swoop, im sending you a coupon good for 5 sessions with a psychiatrist.
all you gotta do is sit in front of a mirror and explain it to him without cracking up ( any more than you are now ).
limited time offer.
better than cash


ok..i'm outing myself.. i quit a specialized sponsored team after i tried the shoes on (blech). i use sidi... they feel custom. but i know a lot of dudes that love their specialized shoes and they are hella cheaper and i was trying to be positive because i'm tired of the hate mail!

[Grant McLean]

specialized as good as sidi?


i'll take specialized over sidi any day. imho

g

[stevep]

i'll take specialized over sidi any day. imho

g

grant, ill send you the coupons.
swoop woke up from his nightmare.
couldn't face the mirror without laughing.
s

[Grant McLean]

grant, ill send you the coupons.
swoop woke up from his nightmare.
couldn't face the mirror without laughing.
s

do i get fries with that?

g

[davids]

do i get fries with that?

g
You're gonna have to share (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=300975&postcount=38) with swoop.

I'm thinking I may need new shoes. I think my Genius 4s are too narrow and a half size short. That's what comes from trying to be frugal...

[stevep]

You're gonna have to share (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=300975&postcount=38) with swoop.

I'm thinking I may need new shoes. I think my Genius 4s are too narrow and a half size short. That's what comes from trying to be frugal...

david,
tip.
buy the ones 1/2 sz bigger and wider.
fee: $10
please remit.
nevr try to be frugal at this. always will bite you.

[davids]

david,
tip.
buy the ones 1/2 sz bigger and wider.
fee: $10
please remit.
nevr try to be frugal at this. always will bite you.
word. now I owe another ten.

[fiamme red]

i'll take specialized over sidi any day. imho

gI agree.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/d/96933-2/03_the_specialized_angel_bcstockwell.jpg

[csm]

yes go to a sidi shop and waste their time trying on their inventory. then, to save a few bucks, order them online.
after they refuse to honor the warranty, go to an attorney and ask for free advice. when he throws you out of his office, go to the emergency room and ask for free care.

[keno]

Had Sidi Genius 4s, but too mushy for me.

Got Shimano SH 215s, in fact a second pair, half size smaller but E, for larger toe box. Like them lots.

Then bought some Sidi Ergos right here in the classifieds, and love them. The higher arch allows me to push the stroke over the top, as on a leg press machine. Now the Shimanos get to be inside with the rollers and trainers.

On tightness, Too Tall solved many foot problems for me when he told me that he keeps his cycling shoes (LUST) loose like bedrooms slippers (do I take everything Manute says literally?) unless he's racing. I do whatever he tells me to do, if I don't have something else I'd rather do. I don't race and my feet don't give me any problems, in the bedroom at least.

keno

[manet]

sidi good. neutral last. good for insole-footsie-guy to work with.
shimano good. similar shoe. slightly larger toe box.

specialized ok. not neutral. has built in varis. insole-footsie-guy will have to work around it.

[AgilisMerlin]

yes go to a sidi shop and waste their time trying on their inventory. then, to save a few bucks, order them online.
after they refuse to honor the warranty, go to an attorney and ask for free advice. when he throws you out of his office, go to the emergency room and ask for free care.


or go to a bike shop, find some shoes that fit and you are happy with and pay thier price for their service and expertise.


your choice.


AmerliN

[chrisroph]

Buy whatever freakin' fits. for me, its carnac quartz. Glad I bought an extra pair 2 years ago on closeout. Sidis and shimanos are too narrow. specialized are big enough but are made of really cheap materials, have built in varus (which can be worked around), and have freaky short cleat mount channels but that is why god made dremels. Whatever feels right is right. shoes, saddles, h/bars, gloves, phono cartridges, all the same in some ways.

[terrytnt]

Amerlin's advice (and others) is on target for me. My LBS does in fact carry Sidi (and Specialized) so due to my narrow foot, may be best to work with him... just have to experiment. Also agreee, that if the shoe fits, I'll buy it from them.

Because my LBS built my Serotta, I also get between 15-20% on most merchandise, which helps... but $400 is still a lot to pay!

[petitelilpettit]

I have the DMT Kyoma's with the carbon sole and I was amazed at how stiff the shoe is when I climb. I came off of some non-carbon soled Sidi's, and I must say that the difference from non-carbon to carbon sole is day and night. The weight was a major factor, but also the price (150 for the sidis and 300 for the DMT's). However, I would go with the Kyoma's anyday.

Pettit

[csm]

400 bucks is a ton of money for shoes; but how much will you save by getting them off the net or mailorder? not to mention the obvious advantage of being able to get instant gratification. and the ability to pester them if something goes wrong. for ideas about what I am talking about, see ebay posts elsewhere on the forum.

[scrooge]

I switched from a pair of Sidi size 48 to Carnac M5 size 47 last year. the M5's are great shoes and the 47's are bigger than the Sidi 48's. Also with my foot size, the Sidis were a bit softer soled than the Carnacs. I can tell the difference when I stand up on the pedals. But these Carnacs are not carbon soled, they just have a stiffer plastic sole than the Sidis, which are known to have a somewhat flexier sole.

Anybody interested in some size 48 Sidis?

Check your Pms.

[sbornia]

PS - I will no sooner eat a rabbit than you will eat a dog or a cat.

saab2000 -- Come habiti in ticino e non mangiare mai polenta e coniglio?? ;-)

On to shoes. I've ridden Sidi Genius and Genius Carbon for the last 10 years. My 2 cents atmo:

- Spending $200-$400 on shoes that you'll ride for 5k+ miles/year for 3+ years works out to be pretty cheap per mile -- even cheaper if you keep them for 10 years and let rabbits lunch on them. You'd probably spend this much on a suit, but wear it for far fewer hours over the years. (Who me, rationalize?)

- Sidis are comfy out of the box. No real break-in required. The soft tongue/strap is superb. The inner sole they come with is a POS. Superfeet makes a decent aftermarket replacement for $30, but you've got to have enough room in the shoes for them - consider buying a half-size larger. I also tried the "Sole" brand inner soles, but found the arch too high for my feet. YMMV. Also, any inner soles won't last forever, and need to be replaced every year or two depending on mileage.

- The pseudo-carbon Sidi sole is definitely stiffer than the regular Genius plastic sole. From what i understand, though, Sidis are far less stiff than Shimano or Carnac.

- My carbon sole sidis are not that comfortable after 100 miles on the road, but that's somewhat dependent on the weather, and may be the case with *any* shoe. 90F+ makes your feet swell, causing shoes to feel very tight and create hotspots.

Basta.

[musgravecycles]

I agree.

You can have your Specialized Angel...

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/babes/babes06/giro06-angeltwo.jpg

[csm]

I'm willing to bet I've eaten cat and/or dog. I know I've had rabbit.

[Simon Q]

Any views on the Boa system (eg on some Spec)? Given that you cannot customise the tension along the shoe it makes no sense to me. I like to be firm across the arch strap and just a little more room at the toes.