Suppose Bikes Were Randomly Assigned To Teams In The Tour De France

[Sandy]

Suppose for the upcoming Tour De France, each team was randomly assigned a bike to use. The US Postal team might all ride Colnagos instead of Treks, for example.

Do you think that the random assignment of bikes would have anything at all to do with how each team would do, and how individual riders would do on their respective team? This question is given with the understanding that within a particular assigned bike, the proper fit was given and proper bikes would be given according to the ride application (say TT, for example).

How about the same question for wheels?

Do you think that Lance Armstrong would have won five straight on a Serotta, or a Seven, or a Specialized, or I hate to think, a Calfee????

Serotta Somebody

[dbrk]

Perhaps a step further: have all the riders ride the same brand bikes, I could care less which ones. I think this would have zero effect on the outcome (bikes fit and are discipline correct). Now the quality of the ride would be different but I doubt the outcome would change.

If the Trekkers had to ride Colnagos and the BMCers had to ride MBCs, etc, I still think we'd see no difference. These guys are impervious to pain, elements, and the whims of the bike industry. I think they get real psychological edges because they believe their respective bikes to be superior but in the end the strong guy wins. It wasn't the Giant that caused Beloki to crash, imo, nor the Trek that allowed Lance to navigate the farm land. Of course, what the heck do I know. All of these guys look like they are on their girlfriend's bike to me (and she is a foot shorter than he is...)

dbrk

[victoryfactory]

"They expect me to ride this piece of junk?"

- Dave Stohler

Upon being issued his regulation bike for the little 500

VF, who regularly tapes his feet to the pedals just to make it home.

[jrisles]

I tend to agree with dbrk .. i honestly don't believe that there would be any change in the overall positioning if the riders had different bikes. I mean there is probably less than a 1kg between the heaviest and lightest bikes on the tour. Lance WANTS to win!! I mean within reason Lance would have won on anything. And Lance WILL win this year as well. Just because he hasn't come this far to give in. He will take it out .. i have no doubt about it. (Failing of course a major accident, which is likely to be beyond his control).

I mean just because lance only won by a couple of minutes in last years tour that doesn't mean the race "was close". Lance did all he needed to do to win. I mean why do anymore over a distance this great? And i believe that is exactly what you will see this year as well. A race won by Lance by a margin no greater than it needs to be.

As far as bikes go, as long as they are decent bikes there wouldn't be much if any change in the overall positions. These guys are machines.

cheers
Jeff
Brisbane, Australia

[Roy E. Munson]

Imagine inheriting this geometry!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2004/tech/features/sanremo/MSR04_07

[Too Tall]

Huh? Style disaster maybe but zero change in outcome.

[dirtdigger88]

I agree there would be little change. Look at riders when they change teams. Tylor isn't off this year because he is on an different bike. The pro riders are machines just like the bikes they ride.

Jason

[Andreu]

....., if we are saying that frames would make little difference to professionals then for mere mortals like us the difference is even less (as we cannot push the envelope) therefore we can save ourselves a whole heap of money.
A

[BumbleBeeDave]

<<<Perhaps a step further: have all the riders ride the same brand bikes, I could care less which ones.>>>

I believe this has been done before in auto racing--all drivers have exactly the same car--or maybe it was a pick-up truck series . . . Anyway, I don't know if they do it any more or not.

The only place I can see this making a difference is in levelling the palying field as far as mechanical problems. Last year at the Prologue Millar's chain came off and definitely cost him the yellow jersey. In an interview after the stage he blamed the problem on alternative brand chainrings their team mechanic had installed and said 6 of the 9 riders on their Cofidis team had the same thing happen that day.

BBDave

[zap]

Certainly poor equipment choices have resulted in lost opportunities/overall standings.

Jan U. comes to mind when he used Lightweight wheels on technical descents.

Plenty of Pro's have been unhappy with sponsored equipment. Currently T-Mobile is not happy with Giant bikes. A good number of bikes from other manufacturers have been relabeled as Looks, Pinarello's, etc.

Pro's are fairly picky about equipment choices and positioning. If they can afford it, they will dip into their piggy bank and pay for relabeled items.

[Andreu]

"Pro's are fairly picky about equipment choices and positioning. If they can afford it, they will dip into their piggy bank and pay for relabeled items."

I would say the opposite....until it goes wrong or breaks then they get picky.
A

[JohnS]

The auto series was the International Race Of Champions. They took the leading drivers from the different disciplines and put them in identically prepared Camaros.

[djg]

Some pros are notoriously finicky about more than just fit issues, but many are not. Supposing everyone could have gotten a good fit, and kept their favorite saddles, it seems highly unlikely that the final GC chart would have looked any differerent at all.

That's not to say that the bike doesn't matter. Mechanicals can be killers, even at that level of support. And I don't suppose that riders climbing high cols at or just under (or sadly over) their physical threshholds would have looked kindly on arbitrary five pound additions from retro gear. But swapping good fitting, top level, contemporary race machines--seems like it should be a wash.

[gt6267a]

while watching the effort put into lance's TT bike, i was wondering how much of the impact is real and how much in his mind. now, don't get me wrong. i am firm believer in psychological advantages...

for example, when they showed the graph of lance taking a breath. sure, ok, drag increases, but what is the scale? how finite or miniscule is that increase?

over a 1hr TT, will all this extra work shave 30 seconds or a minute?

[dirtdigger88]

The auto series was the International Race Of Champions. They took the leading drivers from the different disciplines and put them in identically prepared Camaros.


The series started out using Trans Ams not Camaros. I am not sure it the series is still going. They no longer make Trans Ams or Camaros so I wonder what they would use

Jason

[BigMac]

Sandy:

The quick and easy response is simply to quote a famous Texan, "It's not about the bike..." If the fit is proper, it really comes down to your 3 favorite "S" words; Strategy, Skill and Strength. That's not to say Lance could ride one of Eddy's Moltoni labeled DeRosa's circa '71 with full compliment of Super Record gruppo and still defeat Jan aboard his latest aluminum flyweight custom rig. We must consider apples-apples comps here, huge gains have been made in technology, particularly in TT aerodynamics. If the essence of your inquiry however is whether Lance is dominant because he is riding the latest Trek instead of a Giant, Bianchi, Colnago, Cervelo or yes, Serotta Legend, the answer is no. Same can be said for DA, Ultegra, Record, Chorus, Centaur, etc.; absolutely meaningless. He wins because he employs the best combination of the 3 S-words.

As to Andreu's assertion that if the bike is meaningless for pro's, it should matter even less to shmuck's such as I flies directly in the face of reality. First and foremost, pro's are far more adept and skilled than I. They also have a singular goal of getting from point a to b as fast as possible. Now I may try to get a to b as fast as possible, however even that is within reason. I also demand a certain feel and comfort level that is beyond the goal of pure speed. I think we can all agree that most frames do have different feel, both dependant upon material choices and geometry. My build is nothing remotely resembling the average pro, many of their respective frames are completely ill-suited for someone my size. Furthermore, some of the frames used in peloton are so designed for a singular goal they would be a very poor choice for any average recreational rider with less single-minded goals and far lesser bike handling skills. A fine example of this was the late Marco Pantani's climbing bike he used during '98, '00 and '01 at TdF. It was almost unridable by anyone who lacked Pantani's beautiful smooth climbing cadence, his whispy lightweight and incredibly smooth descending skills. Even many pro's would find that frame a handfull descending at just 50kph, a speed he would often double on very technical routes. Same could be said for the famous TVT frames from the 80's. I am personally a far less skilled rider who NEEDS a bike to not just fit properly but also be stable enough for even I to comfortably ride hands free, descend with confidence at 50+mph and still be relatively smooth and comfortable at the end of a 15 hour ride. I have never found any frame so capable of delivering that combination as my custom Legend...and yes I have ridden a very large selection of frames since 1969.

Be aware that in many cases the pro bikes are custom fitted and may ride and feel much different than the production off-the peg version. I have tremendous respect for Lance, not just for his accomplishments but for his willingness to use mostly stock equipment. That's not to say he is not demanding and that vendors do not accomodate his many demands, he is however FAAAAAR less of a primadonna than most pro's, in my experience. However while most pro's can be very demanding, there is VERY little frame or component rebadging these days, in fact there has been very little for last 10 years. In this era of media saturation, the few instances of rebadging receive such notariety that sponsors are EXTREMELY embarrassed and reluctant to allow such loopholes in future contracts. Yes, we know of Ullrich's "Pinarello" and Hamilton's "Look" incidents only because of the press's prying camera lens, these individuals' contracts no longer allow such deviations, same is true with most pro contracts today. That said, ever try to buy a custom Cannondale, Specialized, Giant or most other major label production frames? The pro's get'em we cannot. In most cases, custom only means some sizing and perhaps a slight geometry issue. There are instances however when tubes or lugs are considerably altered to accomodate a certain need. In some cases these become working prototypes for a future production model, often its a one-off experiment to appease the whims of a rider, coach or mechanic.

In the end, if a frame is properly fitted one is not going to be faster than the next. To acheive that proper fit, it may or may not take a custom sized frame. For average riders such as I with body proportions different than your defacto 5'9" 150lb pro, a custom frame engineered to the level of a Serotta is a far better choice to meet my needs and skill limitations.

Ride on! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[flydhest]

while watching the effort put into lance's TT bike, i was wondering how much of the impact is real and how much in his mind. now, don't get me wrong. i am firm believer in psychological advantages...

for example, when they showed the graph of lance taking a breath. sure, ok, drag increases, but what is the scale? how finite or miniscule is that increase?

over a 1hr TT, will all this extra work shave 30 seconds or a minute?

gt,
The plan is not to shave 30 seconds or a minute. That would be an amount of time that would be worth paying 5 times as much for. They likely are hoping for something like 5 to 10 seconds, tops. For two time trials (granted, the uphill one this year puts a wrench in things) 10 to 20 seconds means not having to get stressed about giving away time bonuses for winning stages.

[victoryfactory]

While watching the replay of the Sea Otter Classic road race last nite.
Trent Klasna, (Sierra Nevada) who led the stage for a while (and got lots of camera time for Serotta) was riding a Legend ST, I think. That bike must weigh around 17 lbs, no?
If the other guys on aluminum or carbon are riding 15.5 lb bikes, does that make a difference? Was Trent thinking to himself "Welp, I bonked there at the end and Chris Horner won the race on a 2 lb lighter bike, but I really feel that my frame rode very smooth and steel like."

VF, Just doing my job (resident wiseass)

[Too Tall]

The car analogy falls flat....they use the same engine.

[ericmurphy]

....., if we are saying that frames would make little difference to professionals then for mere mortals like us the difference is even less (as we cannot push the envelope) therefore we can save ourselves a whole heap of money.
A

Yes, but are we out there to win races? I'm not. I'm out there really, really enjoy myself. And as irrational as it seems, I have a much better time if I'm a totally hot bike. :-)

After all, a Nissan Sentra will get you to the grocery store just as easily as an Aston Martin DB7.