Pre 98, 8,9 speed to 10, Campagnolo Shifter Conversion

[m_sasso]

Just read a post on Neo Retro Velo Facebook group where someone is claiming it is possible to convert Pre 98, 8,9 speed pointy hood Campagnolo shifters to 10 speed. Is this possible? I believe the Old Potato says no, not possible, however here is the post, what do you say?

"Any pre-carbon lever set can be converted to 10'speed by changing $100 worth of internals. The parts and kits are still available. Chorus & Record are the easiest to change but the others can be done as well. What I learned when I did it. Campagnolo changed the internals a little in 1999 so anything before that model year has to have a few extra parts to make the lever conversion but it can be done. This is for the right/rear shifter. The actual 10-speed index gear was changed where the central pivot shaft passes through it. So in order to make an older style lever compatible with the new index gear the pivot shaft and a few associated parts need to be upgraded as well.
Central Pivot Shaft Assembly upgrade – Parts List
EC-RE435 Central Pivot Shaft
EC-RE407 Central Pivot Fixing Bolt
EC-RE251 Coil Spring Bushing
EC-RE149 Central Pivot Fixing Bolt Retention Washer
EC-AT061 Ergo Index Gear Bottom Washer
EC-RE008 Coil Spring Bushing Wear Prevention Washer
The Central Pivot Shaft was changed to improve reliability with the junction to the Coil Spring Bushing as well as fit the new center of the new 10-speed Ergo Index Gear. The Index Gear Bottom Washer provides correct spacing between the bearings in the hood and the new Index Gear. It also fits inside the recess on the Index gear. The Coil Spring Bushing Wear Prevention Washer has a different inner diameter than the old one so it must be replaced. The Central Pivot Fixing Bolt Retention Washer has a smaller center hole diameter that fits the smaller head of the new Central Pivot Fixing Bolt which must be replaced to fit the new Central Pivot Shaft threads. It also uses a #15 Torx bit to tighten it, not the 3mm Allen that is stated in the Campy documentation. This makes up the parts needed to make older levers compatible with ‘99 and newer 10-speed.

With these parts, any lever can be upgraded to the 10-speed setup. You will still need the 10-speed parts as well, the index gear, the ratchet ring, and the improved G Spring Carrier if yours hasn't already been replaced. There are some other suggested normal wear items on the list for rebuilds (springs, etc.) but they could be considered optional if yours are in good shape.

Good shifting to all that keep their (older) Campy stuff going."

[bicycletricycle]

didn't Jan Ulrich ride with this set up?

[BubbleWrap]

Yes, this is absolutely true. But I'm not sure if the parts can be located these days, I haven't looked in years. This ability to be fully rebuilt and customized is one of the main reasons why I became a die hard Campy snob. And well over a decade later, I never needed to rebuild any of them. I upgraded an original 9 speed Daytona rear brifter into their 2nd version of 9 speed spacing. I'm still running 10 speed record on my road bike.

[m_sasso]

Have not gone through all the parts however between the OP and Mercian Cycles pretty confident most of them can be found. If not, can always pick up trashed 10 speed Gumby outers for their innards if the conversion is possible.

https://www.merciancycles.co.uk/product-category/campagnolo-ergospares/

[bicimechanic]

didn't Jan Ulrich ride with this set up?

Yep.

I’ve done these before and I have all the parts but it’s been a while since I did the conversion. I’ll have to look at my notes in the shop.

[Mark McM]

Yes, this is absolutely true. But I'm not sure if the parts can be located these days, I haven't looked in years.

New parts for 10spd shifters are all available, in one form or another. Since this conversion requires many parts to be changed, the simplest and easiest way to get them might be to buy a right shift lever/body assembly (which contains the entire shifting mechanism). These can be had had for between $70 - $100, depending on the model.

The Gap30Cycles ebay store currently has Record 10s Right Lever Body Assembly for $85:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-Record-Ergopower-10s-Right-Lever-Body-Assembly/123113279784?hash=item1caa1f9128:g:~oYAAOSwr05eMx2 U

They also have Veloce/Centaur 10s Right Lever Body Assembly for $69:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-Centaur-Veloce-Ultra-Shift-10s-Right-Lever-Body-Assembly-Composite-L/113638810042?hash=item1a7566a1ba:g:BlMAAOSwg-VeMxeu

[m_sasso]

New parts for 10spd shifters are all available, in one form or another. Since this conversion requires many parts to be changed, the simplest and easiest way to get them might be to buy a right shift lever/body assembly (which contains the entire shifting mechanism). These can be had had for between $70 - $100, depending on the model.

The Gap30Cycles ebay store currently has Record 10s Right Lever Body Assembly for $85:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-Record-Ergopower-10s-Right-Lever-Body-Assembly/123113279784?hash=item1caa1f9128:g:~oYAAOSwr05eMx2 U

They also have Veloce/Centaur 10s Right Lever Body Assembly for $69:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-Centaur-Veloce-Ultra-Shift-10s-Right-Lever-Body-Assembly-Composite-L/113638810042?hash=item1a7566a1ba:g:BlMAAOSwg-VeMxeu

Thanks, the Record 10s Right Lever Body Assembly is correct. The Campagnolo-Centaur-Veloce-Ultra-Shift-10s-Right-Lever-Body is to new and not the correct parts.

[thirdgenbird]

Yup

[m_sasso]

Well, darn I have 5 sets of 8 and 9 speed Record shifters and the 8's are ready to move to 10's. I am positive I asked Peter about this previously, pretty sure I have the PM some where and he wrote it could not be done, likely he just meant it wasn't economically viable to do the conversion. So until today I was always working under the assumption pointy hood 8's could only go to 9's but not to 10's. Purchased most of the parts to go from pointy hood 8 speed to 9 speed already. Now I know better, thanks for the confirmation. Anyone need some 9 speed ratchet rings?

[thirdgenbird]

I am guessing peter was referring to swapping ratchet rings. You can swap between 8 and early 9 or late 9 and 10 but you can’t jump from the first pair to the last due to the pivot diameter.

Per your original post, you can swap by swapping all of the guts. I did mine over 10 years ago so the details are fuzzy, but your post sounds correct. If you have a complete 8spd lever and complete 10spd lever, you should be fine. I do think I had to drill out a small hole in the rear cap to keep the bolt head from binding when clamped to the bars.

Build above:
Left ergo is stock 8spd
Right is converted to 10
Crank arms are rare 8spd arms made from the c record casting with 10spd rings
Brakes are delta with record 10 bad holders and hardware
Derailleurs are standard 10spd bits

Shifts perfectly.

[oldpotatoe]

As mentioned, you have to do 2 big things..
-change all the guts but also change the 'flats' of the 10s disc to accept the '8s' central bolt..as it's larger/longer plus the ERGO body width is larger on 8s pointy levers..front to back.

Tye biggest change came in 1998, when the rounded top happened but a change in 1999(for ERGO-Brain) meant 1998 levers could not be easily converted like 1999 could without a bunch on new internals, again, mainly for the internal 'flats' of the shift disc.

As for 'parts..still available, I get mine from Campagnolo, NA..small parts like shift springs and spring carriers, thumb buttons, etc. Campag still makes these along with shifter asemblies(2008Record)..It IS possible but can get expensive.

[gfk_velo]

didn't Jan Ulrich ride with this set up?


Yes, although it was a factory conversion and not done in quite the same way.

Campag made some 10s downshift drive rings and cable ratchet-bushings to fit the different internal lay-out of the late 8/9s "version 1a" levers, specifically for Ullrich and one or two other riders.
I was working with a Campag sponsored team then and asked if we could have access to them. The answer from the factory was a very polite "no".

Generally it's a poor idea to look at what the pro teams are doing and just assume it'll be OK or can be done outside of the team environment. One of the reasons to sponsor is to test things. The pros ride harder and in more varied conditions, as well as over more km than most amateurs ever will and it's a valuable part of the testing process for that reason. Added to that. the team mechanic's primary task is to keep the rider rolling, regardless of what the manual says in terms of what "should" happen - up to a point, anyway. So what you see on a pro's bike may be something that the factory are thinking about, they may be doing a "what if", they may have re-badged one thing as something else or it might just be a team mechanic has had to take a solution that strictly would not be "approved of".

Then, there are rider preferences - which was part of what was going on in Ullrich's case. He just liked the feel of the version 1a levers.

Finally, there's good old commercial pressure, with teams buying equipment where they can, to fit how the team budget needs to work - bear in mind, outside of the ProTour, most teams are buying at least some of their kit ... hence you end up with a situation like last season's (2019) AG2R Eddy Merckx 525s where, at one point, they ran (factory re-programmed) Campag 11s EPS with KMC chains and Ultegra 11s cassettes, Rotor cranksets and rings and in some cases Ceramic Speed rear derailleur cages. Definitely *not* a "for-the-public" specification.

We used to offer the 10s conversion on the type 1a levers as a service - but we found that some of the modification we ended up doing was somewhat "fragile" so we stopped. Demand was never particularly strong and for the failure rate in the levers that we did convert, we decided it wasn't worth the poor customer experience.

[martl]

Yes, although it was a factory conversion and not done in quite the same way.

you sure? I think i heard (and i may be entirely wrong) that one of the team mechanics McGyvered that lever...

[oldpotatoe]

Thanks GFK-Velo for another 'in the trenches' review and report..I envy you. I would love to be a fly on the wall with some of these team wrenches when they were slogging thru some of the team bikes..of ANY sponsored groupset type.

The riders pretty much had to 'love' the stuff..the truth always comes out of drunks, babies.......

and team wrenches. :)

[thirdgenbird]

What was the failure, the g-spring carrier?

Were you using all factory parts or did you modify a ratchet to fit?

[Mike V]

didn't Jan Ulrich ride with this set up?

He had 10s levers with pointy hoods.

https://live.staticflickr.com/3589/3322088223_59d0e0399a_z.jpg
https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3658/3322920796_9fdeefef69.jpg
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3660/3322088695_967ce1e23c_z.jpg?zz=1