Question: What makes more impact, Carbon wheels or Carbon Frame?

[ronlau]

To all,

I have been riding my ti or steel bike with alloy rims for many years now.

I just want your input about this question. Do I get more change of feel by using...

1. Carbon Wheels
2. Carbon frame

Thx,
Ron

[pooneej]

I've never ridden steel or Ti but I had aluminum with alloy wheels at first then put on carbon wheels. This is long ago on a Klein quantum with zipp 404s.
I didnt really notice much difference in the ride. Just could hear when I shifted and a bit of road noise I guess but ride itself - not much to me.

Carbon frame with carbon wheels to me very different. At first, very dead feeling. I kept going back to my aluminum frames. Klein was gone but I had a Felt F1R alum with mavic GL280s, and a specialized allez m4 aluminum. I'd ride them rather than my carbon because I liked that feel better.

I no longer have any aluminum bikes just carbon and looking to build up either a steel or Ti !

[pbarry]

More supple tires will have more of an impact on ride quality than a change in wheels. What tires and tire width are you riding now? Do you have clearance for wider tires? Less pressure than you might be used to will help comfort level, if that's what you are going for. [Like 85 psi in a 23mm clincher or tubular vs. old school 95-100psi.] :)

[madsciencenow]

My experience is it depends on the wheels, frame, tires, air pressure ... ...YMMV. I think it’s challenging to really give solid advice on this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[yinzerniner]

To all,

I have been riding my ti or steel bike with alloy rims for many years now.

I just want your input about this question. Do I get more change of feel by using...

1. Carbon Wheels
2. Carbon frame

Thx,
Ron

That's like stating "what makes more difference, fire or air?"

It's just too broad a question to answer without knowing more particulars. And also, oftentimes it's the attributes and engineering of the product that contribute more to noticeable change than the underlying material.

A top-notch alloy wheelset from HED, DT or Campy will beat the pants off a cheap carbon pair. Ditto a crappy carbon frame will ride like garbage compared to a refined metal steed.

So it really depends on what frame and wheels you're currently riding. If you have a great frame and subpar alloy wheels then obviously GOOD carbon wheels will make the biggest difference. And vice versa is obviously true.

Maybe if you list your current equipment then people could give better advice than "it depends" on the most economical or easy change to increase ride quality.

[Hellgate]

High end tires make the biggest difference.

[Hilltopperny]

Tough question, but as stated above it is dependent on the equipment. A good set of wide lightweight wheels regardless of material will change the way a bike rides and a nice lightweight carbon frame can make a huge difference depending on its purpose. For example I picked up a Mukluk carbon this winter after having a few different aluminum framed fatbikes and it is a huge upgrade. the bike weighs at least 4lbs less than any of the previous bikes and is a joy to ride. It climbs and rides better than any other fatty I have owned or ridden and I think that is due to the frame and a decent set of wheels.

I find that quality hubs mated to high end aluminum or carbon wheels can be pretty transformative over a stock wheelset, but not really sure I prefer one over the other. I am running 3 sets of wheels on my Drifter and they all have their own merits. My road/gravel sets are Reynolds ATR 650b and Belgium plus to CK hubs 700c. Both sets of wheels are excellent IMHO and they both perform well on and off road. I am running slicks on both of those sets. My third set is an unbranded wide tubeless alloy wheel from a Raleigh Tamland that I converted the front hub to a Son dynamo. I am running knobby Challenge GGP tires and like them for their intended purpose which is winter and night riding. They are boat anchors though! Much heavier than the other two high end wheelsets and you can definitely feel it when climbing or even just initially putting down power as the engagement just isn't the same as the CK hubs or the Reynolds either.

[kramnnim]

Depends on the wheels and the frame. And your type of riding

[ronlau]

To all,

This is what I have been using for the past 2 years.

I weight 155 pounds.

Frame: Foundry Chilkoot Ti, Della Santa.
Wheels: Campy Eurus, Campy Zonda, Fulcrum Racing 1 Tubular.
Tires: Velofelx 25, 28 or Rene Herse 28c
Pressure: 65 psi front, 70 to 75 psi rear.

I have good equipment but just wondering what will Carbon add to my riding.
Most of my riding is on the road, I have done gravel but found I enjoy the road bike better.

Ron


That's like stating "what makes more difference, fire or air?"

It's just too broad a question to answer without knowing more particulars. And also, oftentimes it's the attributes and engineering of the product that contribute more to noticeable change than the underlying material.

A top-notch alloy wheelset from HED, DT or Campy will beat the pants off a cheap carbon pair. Ditto a crappy carbon frame will ride like garbage compared to a refined metal steed.

So it really depends on what frame and wheels you're currently riding. If you have a great frame and subpar alloy wheels then obviously GOOD carbon wheels will make the biggest difference. And vice versa is obviously true.

Maybe if you list your current equipment then people could give better advice than "it depends" on the most economical or easy change to increase ride quality.

[prototoast]

Obviously there are a lot of other variables in play, but I would expect a carbon frame will likely "feel" the most different, but carbon wheels will have a bigger impact on speed.

[ronlau]

Thank you all for your input.

[uber]

Adding some deep carbon wheels to a steel or Ti frame that you already love will likely feel different to you. As you are a Campy fan, a set of Bora 50 tubulars with Veloflex tires would be my choice. A carbon frame with said wheels will cost more and likely provide a bigger difference in riding experience to what you are used to. Not necessarily better. Going to an aero carbon frame and deep carbon wheels will offer another step on the spectrum. All wonderful. All different. Just another child to love. Mamy would agree the aero advantages of wheels and/or frame are only realized at speed. So, what kind of a change are you hoping to achieve and how much money are you willing to spend for the trip into the rabbit hole? Welcome!

[ronlau]

I mostly ride by myself and the "feel" is the most important part for me.

The tubulars I have are wonderful, just wondering will the carbon version (Bora) will change the ride enough to spend the money.

Adding some deep carbon wheels to a steel or Ti frame that you already love will likely feel different to you. As you are a Campy fan, a set of Bora 50 tubulars with Veloflex tires would be my choice. A carbon frame with said wheels will cost more and likely provide a bigger difference in riding experience to what you are used to. Not necessarily better. Going to an aero carbon frame and deep carbon wheels will offer another step on the spectrum. All wonderful. All different. Just another child to love. Mamy would agree the aero advantages of wheels and/or frame are only realized at speed. So, what kind of a change are you hoping to achieve and how much money are you willing to spend for the trip into the rabbit hole? Welcome!

[fmradio516]

apparently carbon wheels are the "thing" for mountain bikes. not sure id wanna spend that kinda dough on something ill probably smash into some rocks in a few weeks.

[oldpotatoe]

To all,

I have been riding my ti or steel bike with alloy rims for many years now.

I just want your input about this question. Do I get more change of feel by using...

1. Carbon Wheels
2. Carbon frame

Thx,
Ron

Depends on ohh so much. Carbon manufacturing can be of dozens of types, layups, weave, orientation, amount of 'glue, etc, etc, etc..no way to answer.

Tire difference, size and inflation is way more of an impact.
I have good equipment but just wondering what will Carbon add to my riding.
The tubulars I have are wonderful, just wondering will the carbon version (Bora) will change the ride enough to spend the money.

Carbon tubulars? Might feel stiffer..might not. a deeper carbon wheel most probably would feel stiffer' Altho wheels with aluminum spokes are pretty 'stiff' already.

77,000 or gram bike and rider 'package'..saving 400 or so gram on wheels won't make that much difference, if at all;. 'Rotational' weight, 'flywheel effect' differences are lost in the noise.

[one60]

This podcast from cyclingtips with the Continental tire engineer discussing lab test results underestimating the advantages of tubeless tires in real world quite interesting. Of course, the 'real world' example is Paris-Roubaix cobbles. Quite possible those benefits/advantages are not as significant on more typical road surfaces?

https://cyclingtips.com/2020/04/nerd-alert-podcast-tubeless-tires-for-roubaix/

[carpediemracing]

I mostly ride by myself and the "feel" is the most important part for me.

The tubulars I have are wonderful, just wondering will the carbon version (Bora) will change the ride enough to spend the money.

The wheels and tires you list are top notch stuff.

Therefore in terms of actual feel I don't think you'll notice a huge difference in ride (but the wheels might be lighter, overall more responsive, although rim braking is different in feel).

Based on your wheel sets, on your ranking of "feel" as most important, I'd bet you'd enjoy a (good) carbon frame/fork. They definitely feel different from a steel or aluminum frame but an appropriate carbon frame will feel very light and responsive. Feels like cheating, almost.

Front end won't feel much different unless you have non-carbon forks right now, but rear end could be better, and overall responsiveness, especially when standing, will feel very different.

If you don't already a high quality carbon bar might help with the feel bit. Ditto a post change (maybe to carbon?). Some posts absorb a lot more vibration - you may find it better.

[adub]

3. Tire pressure, tire size

[cgates66]

I'm a heavy rider (~210#) with a "sprint" bias (that is, my peak power is comparatively better than my sustained power) so impressions may differ. I've found that frames set a baseline for the core "character" of a ride - feel if you will - while wheels and tires have more "detail" impacts, that are nevertheless significant. Assuming identical geometry, wheels and tires will probably impact your watts more, and "character" less.

I don't keep a "stable" of bikes - but my past three bikes have been a SystemSix (galvanic corrosion got it), a Supersix Evo Hi Mod and now a Lynskey R480 disc. I've run deeper carbon rims and aluminum rims with varying tire widths and types on all but the Lynskey, which is the "latest" and I'm just running HED Vanquish GPs on it with 28/24 (Sapim Sprint) spokes.

I've noticed the least impact from wheels, except that larger-bearing wheels seem to roll better and wheels with too few / too skinny spokes are noticeably worse for me in acceleration and climbing. Tires make a significant impact in speed and comfort - going from say an ill-fated Gatorskin 23 experiment to GP4000 25s for example was like stepping onto a magic carpet. However, neither tires nor wheels affect the "core" of the bike's handling or feel from the frame.

The SystemSix (carbon/aluminum) was a brutal rocket - other than that horrible red/black paint scheme I really loved it - but it was not exactly "friendly", and of course it wore out. The SuperSix wasn't the right bike for me. It climbed better than the System, and looked better, but whatever it was, it just never was quite right, and for all the "hi mod" this and magic carbon that, the System was a better-sprinting bike. The Super was more comfortable, however, due to flexible rear triangle. The Lynskey handles better, and is way more comfortable than either the Super or System. It doesn't climb as well, sprints about in between the two, and probably looks cooler. The old-school SystemSix, though, was a high bar, so no shame in not quite getting there, and it was u g l y. I digress.

Point being, to me the frame sets the character for the bike: sprinter, climber, cruiser - whatever - and those differences are distinct, and quite obvious. Wheels and tires contribute more to performance as far as I can tell (aero, bearing size and quality, weight, width/suppleness/pressure etc.)

Also, FWIW, Ti is not as stiff - even beefy Ti - as carbon. Stiffness is an overrated quality, but if you're coming off of Ti into carbon - you *will* notice a difference. In feel. Probably not in real speed. Sean Kelly was winning sprints on a Vitus.

[nmrt]

my 2 cents.
i am about 145 lbs. ridden the same Ti bike will alloy tubeless wheels and also with bora 50 ultra tubular. the bike feels oh so much more comfortable with the alloy wheels. but with the carbon wheels it feels snappier. just feels like a different bike in a nice way.

[gbcoupe]

For what it's worth, my 2 favorite bikes are my Moser Leader AX and your old Della Santa. Both have alloy rims. Ritchey Zeta and Easton SLE.

I have 1 full carbon frame with carbon wheels. Assos Goomah g731 with November 50mm rims. 14.25 #'s fully built. It's a really nice ride, but my nod goes to the 2 mentioned steel bikes.

If you want a little lighter and maybe aero, go with the wheels. If you want to try something different, get a carbon frame.

[Robot870]

I've had most of the big company's carbon wheels.....None of them ride as GOOD as aluminum. Road feel, compliance and that wanting to go ride your bike increased with the aluminium.....mostly Hed and Shimano......Mavic rode like ****! Just my opinion...........
Currently on HED jet plusses set up tubliss with pro ones and it's the best I've experienced.....even better than my tubular days........

[Mikej]

I’m riding Bontrager XXX 4 47mm deep wheels and they are without a doubt the best wheels I have used. The comfort can be about the tires but the aero is where you find the performance.

[robertbb]

my 2 cents.
i am about 145 lbs. ridden the same Ti bike will alloy tubeless wheels and also with bora 50 ultra tubular. the bike feels oh so much more comfortable with the alloy wheels. but with the carbon wheels it feels snappier. just feels like a different bike in a nice way.

The Bora probably felt snappier more because of the 2:1 lacing and the stiffness that it provides, than the fact the rim happens to be made of carbon.

[9tubes]

For comfort and ride quality, it's pretty hard to compare wheels unless they have identical tires, identical tubes, and the same pressures. A rider is most likely just feeling the tire differences.



.

[ronlau]

Thank you all for your input.

I am going to keep searching for my Cyfac carbon frame given all your inputs.

[steveoz]

I put a nice set of carbon wheels on by Moots Ti and couldn't imagine a happier combo, snappy wheels and a nicely compliant frame - never rode a carbon frame that I really liked - even have two carbon/ti Serotta that I'm just "meh" about