stans rims - super flexy?

[AngryScientist]

Rode a set of wheels for the first time yesterday.

the reader should be aware that as of this morning's weigh in, i am 134.8 pounds. i also have the power output of a mildly athletic hamster.

every time i got out of the saddle and really wrenched on the bars a little, climbing or hammering, i got brake track rub on the front wheel. confirmed when i opened the brake quick release and tried the same thing.

this is a 24/28 spoke wheel. is it possible that i'm really getting that much flex out of these rims at my low stress weight/power?

i guess i should check spoke tensions, but they feel OK by a hand check.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EFclFMjWsMo/XpNREznctLI/AAAAAAAADpM/566pldELnic8VBzEkjGrKnSHZ-eEgUnWgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/IMG_5284.jpg

[saab2000]

I had some Stan’s Grail rims on my Indy Fab when it was new and experienced pretty strong spoke detensioning with tire inflation. Switched to Pacenti SL25 and the problem went away.

Both were Ergott builds. I haven’t touched the Pacenti build a single time to touch up the trueness or tension. Eric builds a very nice wheel.

Anyway, my experience with Stan’s was poor so I probably wouldn’t consider them again.

[peanutgallery]

As above stated. Stans have gotten progressively better with each new design and generation. The new grail, crest, flow, arch etc have all worked great and are vastly improved. Notice a theme there, they're all disc only. The rim brake rims were all poo. Too light and somewhat off when truing, poor construction. There's a reason those are typically in the sale bin. Not sure, but I haven't seen a rim Stans that was a current product for a while. Not surprised that anyone would find them flexible

[thegunner]

they are. i weigh 145 and i flexed the hell out of those things.

the only good reason to use them was to chase weight tbh.

[yinzerniner]

Rode a set of wheels for the first time yesterday.

the reader should be aware that as of this morning's weigh in, i am 134.8 pounds. i also have the power output of a mildly athletic hamster.

every time i got out of the saddle and really wrenched on the bars a little, climbing or hammering, i got brake track rub on the front wheel. confirmed when i opened the brake quick release and tried the same thing.

this is a 24/28 spoke wheel. is it possible that i'm really getting that much flex out of these rims at my low stress weight/power?

i guess i should check spoke tensions, but they feel OK by a hand check.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EFclFMjWsMo/XpNREznctLI/AAAAAAAADpM/566pldELnic8VBzEkjGrKnSHZ-eEgUnWgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/IMG_5284.jpg

If these are the alpha series rim brake models then they were infamous for having the stiffness of al dente capellini.

Pretty sure that with alu clincher rims anything below 440-450g is asking for trouble, especially with lower spoke counts.

[skouri1]

If those are 340 then yes I don't think you can expect much stiffness from them... I have alpha 400s or something of the ilk, they heavier version in 28 32 and they feel plenty stiff to me . Hubs I'd imagine could play q part but the 340s were a weight weenie rim not sure you can get around that

[benb]

I always always got a loud and clear message that Stan's was heavily targeting the weight weenie crowd with all their offerings.

It started out as "use our tubeless products with tires + rims not certified for tubeless to reduce weight, ignore that the tire manufacturer + rim manufacturer both say it's unsafe".

The they started making their own rims & tires so they could get the rim/tire manufacturer out of the equation. "Now it's our super light rim + tire, and we say it's fine!".

It seemed like there was a ton of drama in big MTB races early on. They basically "won" by getting MTB wins and selling the idea that reducing the wheel weight was far and away the most important thing to win races.

I still love the sealant of course... very loyal customer. I'm just not weight weenie at all for MTB.

[AngryScientist]

thanks guys. this is definitely the first time i've experienced this. i guess these wheels are out.

[robt57]

Except flexy wheels rub later not sooner. The flex allows the part on the pave to yank lateral, and across the fulcrum [hub] the top [other end of the lever] does not move as much as it will with a stiff wheel. READ: moves less, not touch brake pads.

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debunking_Wheel_Stiffness_3449.html

[David Kirk]

Ironically it's typically a stiff rim and low spoke count that will most often allow for brake rub.

If the rim is flexible it will be side loaded at the contact patch on the ground and that will be it....the rim moves to one side down there and that's it. No brake rub.

But if the rim is very stiff it wants to stay in the same plane meaning that when it's side loaded at the contact patch to one side that the rim above the hub will want to move to the other....and in turn will rub the brake.

It seems as if the core issue is often too low a spoke count or too low spoke tension but the rims themselves being too flexible is not usually the cause of brake rub.

dave

[skouri1]

interesting Dave. I have heard this as well re. some fancy carbon wheels (zipp, enve perhaps?).
I haven't had brake rub in a while with true wheels, but I have been running 28/28 spoke handbuilts at OP's weight for years. I always wonder about lower spoke factory wheels (Dura ace for example) but so far I have been sticking to what works and I am grateful to be able to accidentally take my "Road 32" style spectrum on something like a MTB trail and survive unscathed.

[d_douglas]

I had some Stans Iron Cross 28rims on my Desalvo and never felt that comfortable on them, but this was for off-roading.

Interestingly though, my fave LBS cites Stans Flow as their favourite alloy rim - light and bombproof.

To be clear though, these aren’t road rims and I weigh 210lbs.

[unterhausen]

It started out as "use our tubeless products with tires + rims not certified for tubeless to reduce weight, ignore that the tire manufacturer + rim manufacturer both say it's unsafe".
Ask them about "ghetto tubeless" now and they will hector you for an hour about how unsafe it is.

I was never too impressed with the Stans rims I have built with. PITA to get them true at even tension. But they deliver to my LBS the next day and it doesn't much matter how wimpy the rims are for discs.

[robt57]

Bigger issue might be on the rims that do allow more flex, just how much the spoke bed tension increases upon the most Gs input in a hard turns under higher watts etc? If the rim's stiffness is not helping as much, the energy does not just evaporate, etc.

Think about that as you decide you wanna save 27 grams by using less spokes.

[HTupolev]

Rode a set of wheels for the first time yesterday.

the reader should be aware that as of this morning's weigh in, i am 134.8 pounds. i also have the power output of a mildly athletic hamster.

every time i got out of the saddle and really wrenched on the bars a little, climbing or hammering, i got brake track rub on the front wheel. confirmed when i opened the brake quick release and tried the same thing.

this is a 24/28 spoke wheel. is it possible that i'm really getting that much flex out of these rims at my low stress weight/power?

i guess i should check spoke tensions, but they feel OK by a hand check.
Lateral wheel flex is typically a consequence more of the spokes than the rim. Narrow flanges decrease the lateral bracing, spokes with a skinny cross-section can stretch more than heavier spokes with a fatter cross-section.

Low spoke tension also wouldn't contribute unless some of the spokes are actually slack. Spoke spring rate doesn't change much with the amount of tension.

[oldpotatoe]

thanks guys. this is definitely the first time i've experienced this. i guess these wheels are out.

I'd still check the tension..low tension will cause that, flex. And do that before ridden again..low tension and then ridden can 'deform' the rim making even tension next to impossible.

[Tony]

Ironically it's typically a stiff rim and low spoke count that will most often allow for brake rub.

If the rim is flexible it will be side loaded at the contact patch on the ground and that will be it....the rim moves to one side down there and that's it. No brake rub.

But if the rim is very stiff it wants to stay in the same plane meaning that when it's side loaded at the contact patch to one side that the rim above the hub will want to move to the other....and in turn will rub the brake.

It seems as if the core issue is often too low a spoke count or too low spoke tension but the rims themselves being too flexible is not usually the cause of brake rub.

dave

I agree. I have the 340, 20 spoke, radial laced by Dave Thomas, Speed Dreams and they are stiff, no brake rub during hard out of the saddle efforts.
However, done now with these wheels as I've had my second tire blow off the rim. Lucky I wasn't riding at the time.

[macgee]

thanks guys. this is definitely the first time i've experienced this. i guess these wheels are out.

I totally agree to first check the spoke tension, can't deny what others said about these being flexy wheels but if the tension is off you're going to notice it much sooner on these than on a more robust wheelsets. Wouldn't be the first time a semi production wheelset was delivered soft nor will be the last.

1st check tension and make sure they're at the recommended torque # and then ride them again. Having said that, weight weenies and robustness generally do not go together especially when not paying the premium.

[robt57]

they are stiff, no brake rub during hard out of the saddle efforts.

Again, this means that they are less stiff. More stiff more likely to rub.



:bike:

[AngryScientist]

just checked. tensions are all dead even at about 135kgf.

again, this is a 24 spoke wheel, i weigh 135. something is wrong-o

[robt57]

just checked. tensions are all dead even at about 135kgf.

again, this is a 24 spoke wheel, i weigh 135. something is wrong-o


That sounds higher than the max kgf stans would want on that rim, no?

Look up able of course.

[AngryScientist]

That sounds higher than the max kgf stans would want on that rim, no?

Look up able of course.

stans says 125. that's close enough/within the range of error of my cheap tension meter.

point is - low spoke tension is not the culprit.

i guess. lol.

[Brian Cdn]

I'll help you relieve the tension.
Send those wheels to me.

:)

[mcteague]

I'll help you relieve the tension.
Send those wheels to me.

:)

Troubled times indeed, even wheels have too much tension! :rolleyes:

Tim

[Tony]

Again, this means that they are less stiff. More stiff more likely to rub.



:bike:

I don't fully understand the bicycle wheel yet, much to learn. I can say Dave built the wheel true and it has stayed true with no rub for 4 years now. Will be attempting to rebuild this wheel with a different rim this week.
Got my wheelbuilding tools today. Using the Park TM-1 SPOKE TENSION GAUGE for the first time on this wheel the gauge is on 12 mark, meaning 120 kgf?

[robt57]

point is - low spoke tension is not the culprit.

i guess. lol.

Which sounds about right to the high side to me.

But is that is what has your wells stiff to the point the opposite end to the ground is touching the pads. Higher=stiffer=more likely to rub.

Try lowering it to 125 and ride them again...

Also, @ 135, I hope you did not grab pairs and squeeze too hard to stress relieve. That potentially will boost already over tension state to stress riser creation levels or straight up cracks. Especially in low spoke count wheels IMO.

FWIW, I am around 70 wheels built or rebuilt, so not an expert daily wheelsmith. My first set I ever built are on my wife's Madone 20+ years later. And I was brave, DT Revos. ;) They were a monster CX cross wheelset for a few years I was doing single track on a CX bike while I had no MTB bike. ;)

I should also mention I have weighed as much as 100 lb more than your current weight, yes and cycling.

[AngryScientist]

Just got my wheelbuilding tools today. Using the Park TM-1 SPOKE TENSION GAUGE for the first time on this wheel the gauge is on 12 mark, meaning 120 kgf?

break out the chart. depends on the spokes Tony.

[Tony]

break out the chart. depends on the spokes Tony.

The tension tool came with a chart and a spoke gauge. I have CX RAY spokes?
Using the gauge and measuring the spokes in the middle 1.5 loose fit. I have no idea how to use the chart yet.

[sipmeister]

I have a set of the alpha 340 18 front, 24 rear. bladed spokes. I toggle between 170-175 and have ridden those on my Ritchey Swisscross on road and gravel. I don't take it easy. Heck, even took the bike on xc trails. They keep rolling and haven't had to true them once. No issues for me.

[Spoker]

Every disadvantage has its advantage.
Super smooth ride when not cranking all out?

[robt57]

Did you say what tire pressures you are running, or rim age and max tire pressure Stans spec is for the rim? What rim and pressures are going on if tire have blown off ever?

I have some A23 wheels I can feel a difference when using higher pressure as far as flexiness.

[AngryScientist]

Did you say what tire pressures you are running, or rim age and max tire pressure Stans spec is for the rim? What rim and pressures are going on if tire have blown off ever?

I have some A23 wheels I can feel a difference when using higher pressure as far as flexiness.

interesting question.

running about 75/85 front/rear on 24mm s-works tires. using tubes.

i have no recollection of where/when i got these wheels, but they look practically new.

just looked and stans says you're good to 115 psi.

[farmerjosh]

I've been riding a pair of 340s in 28/32 at 200 lbs and haven't had any brake rub when hammering. They came to me very out of true but I haven't had to take a wrench to them since.

So maybe the rims don't do well at lower spoke counts?

I have had a tubeless tire blow off the rim though.....

[FriarQuade]

What spokes and hub are these wheels using? That's got as much or more to do with this situation than the rim.

[oldpotatoe]

just checked. tensions are all dead even at about 135kgf.

again, this is a 24 spoke wheel, i weigh 135. something is wrong-o

With the tire on and inflated? Yikes, high and a pulled out nipple/spoke may be 'next'..I have never been a fan of Stan's rims. They 'feel' soft when you build them, kinda like some low end SUN rims. Very hard to get them true, then put any stress on them, and keep them that way while building. That tells me they 'deform' when tensioned and then stressed.

[AngryScientist]

yep.

fortunately i have a basement full of nice wheels. not wasting any more time with these. :)

[Velocipede]

When Stan first started his brand/company and pushing tubeless, he would buy rims from me when I was at American Classic. He used some of those shapes to design his rims. And at the time the AMC rims were the lightest available. And crazy flexy if not built right. I've seen the same problem when building with Stan's to the point I don't even bring them up or if I do, it's the last option.

[ColonelJLloyd]

With the tire on and inflated? Yikes, high and a pulled out nipple/spoke may be 'next'..I have never been a fan of Stan's rims. They 'feel' soft when you build them, kinda like some low end SUN rims. Very hard to get them true, then put any stress on them, and keep them that way while building. That tells me they 'deform' when tensioned and then stressed.

Interesting. This has been far from my excellent experience building up and riding Flow Mk3 and 3 wheelsets with Crest Mk3.

I have no experience with Stan's rim-brake rims or low spoke-count disc rims.